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I don't know whether to say congrats or watch out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_hamas

One thing for sure if Arafat was alive he would be in a hard core party mood right about now.

It's pretty fricken scarey if you ask me. Israel already said that they would not even think about dealing with a hamas gov't.

Just when you thought that the tension couldn't get any worse.

Hmmm I can't say I expected this, but I can understand why so many of the palestinians voted for Hamas. Things could get ugly there.

Unless they (both Israel and Hamas) renounce to violence. Those two have been dealing with an eye for an eye for decades now.

this makes things interesting.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I don't know whether to say congrats or watch out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_on_re_mi_ea/world_hamas

One thing for sure if Arafat was alive he would be in a hard core party mood right about now.

i can really see how he would've wanted to party when his Fatah party just got beaten in an election

I wish everybody would stop screwing around, have the war so one side gets killed and then this whole thing is all over.

well...there goes the neighborhood.

Originally posted by Uberking Robert
I wish everybody would stop screwing around, have the war so one side gets killed and then this whole thing is all over.

Bit of a simplistic view of war, don't you think?

They did win in the democratic process though....well, we'll see how it works out. Israel and the US of course pulled the big bullshit by already stating they would not negotiate with them

US havent stated they wont negotiate with Hamas, they said that in order for the US to have a dialog with Hamas Hamas need to end their violent ways. As for Israel, well Hamas dont accept Israel as a nation so why should Israel even consider talking with Hamas at all

Not only the U.S. from what I read the EU also wants Hamas to stop their violent tactics. Is a pickle of problem...but it don't mean it won't be resolved.

Originally posted by finti
US havent stated they wont negotiate with Hamas, they said that in order for the US to have a dialog with Hamas Hamas need to end their violent ways. As for Israel, well Hamas dont accept Israel as a nation so why should Israel even consider talking with Hamas at all

They are the elected leaders of their neighbour state...I think it might be necessary to talk to them in any way.
And the US also, if they want to be the leader of the world, which they seem to be, shouldn't just exclude anyone.
I think one has to see how itn works out. But if the US and Israel don't give them a chance to begin with there won't be uch chance of anything positive to happen.

What did hummus win? Did they win the presidential election? Jackass award? The city commissioner? Best dip at a local cook-off?

The right to diplomacy which may be squandered through their pragmatic wing.

and they havent, it has always been US policy to not to negotiate with terrorists, Hamas need to come forth as a political front and have to deal with statements of the past in order to open a dialogue with the US

Hamas need to accept Israel as a state before a dialogue between them and Hamas can happen, if not what is the use to have a dialogue with a group that doesnt care what you have to say anyway

actually the ball is on Hamas half it is they who need to come forth and show a different side than they have in the past. They be given a chance as soon as they come to term with how to deal with certain aspects of their surroundings,aspects they need to really really change

Ignorance is indeed a blessing
Hamas won the Palestinian Parliamentary election

Originally posted by finti
Hamas won the Palestinian Parliamentary election

Oh, sh*t! Now that's big news! Everyone get out your plate 'cause now there's enough Hummus for everyone!

Mmm...I could really go for some hummus and pitas for lunch later today.

That's great WD...always thinking with your stomach!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Mmm...I could really go for some hummus and pitas for lunch later today. Hummus and tabbouleh is yummy...especially with pine nuts...

Guess I should start watchin the news..........

I basically agree with you Finti, but is it necessary to sstir uo the whole world against a newly elected Party, and to state, at least from Israels side, that there won't be any negotions at all. Although their ight be good reasons it is not necessarily the fairest thing to do.

well it remains to be seen if they can act as a political party and not as a bunch of terrorist, until that hapen I wouldnt given them a minute of the day....................

Originally posted by finti
well it remains to be seen if they can act as a political party and not as a bunch of terrorist, until that hapen I wouldnt given them a minute of the day....................

I see, cause that will make it especially easy for them to act in a sophisticated manner. Right.

The Hamas victory, despite it being a democratic one, is ill news...
Just last year Palestine and Israel finally came to something remotely an understanding and made a few steps towards a possible peace.
Sadly the main figures in this positive development are now wiped of the board, Sharon is on the edge of death and the progressive and sort of peace desiring government of Palestine is about to be replaced by the aggressive Hamas. Simultaneous, their cause finds more support in the likes of the increasingly maniacal Iran and the terrorist world.
With Israel as an US ally and the Hamas as a main representative of the anti-western community, this might turn in to the next gulf/ or even world war pretty damn soon.

Originally posted by mechmoggy
That's great WD...always thinking with your stomach!

I just can't reason on an empty belly.


On topic:

There is been protesting and some rioting (as usual) in the Gaza strip over the victory of Hamas.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/27/palestinian.election/index.html

Which begs the question....could this cause a split between Palestinians? Or just a small group?

This might be the start of a small rebellion within Palestine, but as the Hamas are by far the most powerful entity, even compared to the regular army, the result will be swift and in Hamas' favour.
The situation in this nation is a prime example of how extremists ideas can exceed the common people's wishes.

Hey, if it was democratically decided, then why wouold a country that's engaging in psuedo-terrorist activities in the middle east to spread democracy have any issues with it?

Could it be that people in this world are not all going to view the presence of a 'democracy' spreading western nation like America, as a good thing? If we want the people of Palestine to stop voting in favor of a terrorist-run government, then we need to hack Israel in half and give one side to them. As it is, they are segregated into a little ghettoesque corner of the country.

Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Just last year Palestine and Israel finally came to something remotely an understanding and made a few steps towards a possible peace.IMO autocratic unilateral moves by Ariel Sharon, who refused to even meet with Mahmoud Abbas.... did not amount to a remote understanding.

Originally posted by jaden101
i can really see how he would've wanted to party when his Fatah party just got beaten in an election



Ahhhhh ; Good to see 'the anomaly' again ;

forgive WD ; since he changed to dwarf, his insight has been cut short too

it would make thing easier if you dont have to worry about the delegates you meet aint got no bomb strapped unto their bodies

Originally posted by finti
it would make thing easier if you dont have to worry about the delegates you meet aint got no bomb strapped unto their bodies

Ok, I thin k I got it now. Hamas = Terrorist therefore we won't negotiate with them until they have showed that they are not "evil" terrorists anymore (now that they actuially are then leaders of a democratic government would their attacks now be considered an act of war?) -> they can only show that they are not terrorists if they don't attack us when we negotiate with them -> we won't give them a chance.

Or is it that you are saying that all terrorist attacks have to cease before the Hamas are allowed to speak to the glorious US? Kind of hard to achieve isn't it. Are you sure they are actually able to tell everyone what to do and what not?

I think you need to get more into what was really said and why, Hamas has had an agenda where as the only way to deal with Israel is to blow them up. They also have glorified and recruited suicide bombers among young Palestinians. They dont care if they attack innocent people as long as it is for their cause.
It is issues like these they need to come to terms with, Hamas is in the process of meeting them selves in the door, are they gonna continue the violent way or are they gonna stray away from their past and try a political solution.

US have always had the policy to not to negotiate with terrorists and it aint gonna change now. And there are now doubts wiht the ways Hamas have presentd themselves in the past they aint nothing but a bunch of terrorists

as Hamas and for controlling their own members yes they need to or else they wont have any credibility at all.

Originally posted by finti
They dont care if they attack innocent people as long as it is for their cause.Aside from bad PR, how much does the Israeli Administration really care about the innocent people in the Palestinian territories though?
Originally posted by finti
US have always had the policy to not to negotiate with terrorists and it aint gonna change now. And there are now doubts wiht the ways Hamas have presentd themselves in the past they aint nothing but a bunch of terrorists...are terrorists therefore we do not negotiate with them, therefore they use violence as a political tool therefore they are terrorists, therefore we do not negotiate with them, therefore they use violence as a political tool, therefore they...

The U.S. deals with regimes as "illustrious" as that of Uzbekistan....

I have heard that while Hamas is a terrorist group, they are commited to making peace with Israel, so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

Originally posted by Makedde
I have heard that while Hamas is a terrorist group, they are commited to making peace with Israel, so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

indeed but how can they try to make peace with Isreal if they can't even admit that Isreal as a state exists.

I agree on that but that doesnt make it allright for Hamas to allow their memebres to blow up innocent, if they teargeted military instalations then at least they would look like freedom fighters, but they dont they target innocent people all the time and then they hide themselves among the innocent of their own

and the Uzbegi government blew up a bus when? the Uzbeki government blew up a market place, a dicsco, a shopping mall when?

Originally posted by finti
and the Uzbegi government blew up a bus when? the Uzbeki government blew up a market place, a dicsco, a shopping mall when? The Uzbek government boils people to death...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

I'm not 100% that I'm on Israel's side anymore. They're just as bad as their enemy sometimes. It's funny how Israel and Pal' pretend they aren't almost exactly alike each other.

I will remind people that Hitler's Government was elected.

Whilst being elected is one important prerequisite for good government that can be dealth with, it is NOT an all-encompassing concept that warrants acceptance by the international community.

Hamas is a vicious and evil organisation that is condemned as a terrorist group by both US and EU; there is no question of any one agenda here, paitning them out simply because they are opponents. Hamas IS evil, pure and simple.

If they do not renounce violence immediately, and so no give up their recently re-stated policy that Israel has no right to exist, then it is not only the right but also the moral duty of other nations to shun them, and perform actions like cutting off funding.

You do not accept such obviously evil regimes simply on the basis of an election. There are other areas to consider.

do they claim and take credit for their actions like Hamas does , still dont blow up market places, buses, clubs, restaurants filled with civilians

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I will remind people that Hitler's Government was elected.

Whilst being elected is one important prerequisite for good government that can be dealth with, it is NOT an all-encompassing concept that warrants acceptaance by the international community.

Hamas is a vicious and evil organisation that is condemned as a terrorist group by both US and EU; there is no question of any one agenda here, paitning them out simply because they are opponents. Hamas ARE evil, pure and simple.

If they do not renounce violence immediately, and so no give up their recently re-stated policy that Israel has no right to exist, then it is not only the right but also the moral duty of other nations to shun them, and perform actions like cutting off funding.

You do not accept such obviously evil regimes simply on the basis of an election. There are other areas to consider.

I will remoind you that Hitler's Government never actually had the majority. Besides that the system was flawed.

Why are the people that lost their country because of Israel not allowed to state that Israel has no right to exist anyways?

It was still democractically elected. Canada's current govenrment doesn't have a majority- you going to discount it as well?

And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG.

Israel DOES have a right to exist- the UN said so and that is the only arbitrator we have. Any Government committed to destroying Israel should be shunned- and one committed to doing it by violent means should be taken down.

Originally posted by finti
do they claim and take credit for their actions like Hamas does , still dont blow up market places, buses, clubs, restaurants filled with civilians No. They try to hide it as much as possible. Does that make them any better? The U.S. has a history of dealing with regimes engaging in deplorable practices.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It was still democractically elected. Canada's current govenrment doesn't have a majority- you going to discount it as well?

And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG.

Israel DOES have a right to exist- the UN said so and that is the only arbitrator we have. Any Government committed to destroying Israel should be shunned- and one committed to doing it by violent means should be taken down.

If it starts persecuting people and fkes a majority by excluding certain political parties.....perhaps.

1. Just generally stating that something shouldn't exist isn't equal to wanting to destroy it (It is in this case though)
2. Now that they are a government it doesn't need to be terrorist anymore...they can start a real war....although some might argue that Isrrael kind of started it by taking their country.

How come Palestine doesn't have a right to exist then? Sorry if the UN is hypocritical no one needs to submit to it. That's just the kind of thinking that made it possible fopr Hitler to do what he did.

they can state it all they want as a non governmential part, but not when you are in a parliamentary position that would be the same as declearing war

Originally posted by finti
they can state it all they want as a non governmential part, but not when you are in a parliamentary position that would be the same as declearing war

Not really. And if it is taken that way it's not the fault of the Hamas. If they actually declare war or attack Israel then that would be war. Stating that Israel has no right to exist, since...well it just exists by opressing others, is a valid argument.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If it starts persecuting people and fkes a majority by excluding certain political parties.....perhaps.

1. Just generally stating that something shouldn't exist isn't equal to wanting to destroy it (It is in this case though)
2. Now that they are a government it doesn't need to be terrorist anymore...they can start a real war....although some might argue that Isrrael kind of started it by taking their country.

How come Palestine doesn't have a right to exist then? Sorry if the UN is hypocritical no one needs to submit to it. That's just the kind of thinking that made it possible fopr Hitler to do what he did.

It's too late for that kind of thinking. For better or worse, the UN specifically created Israel where it is and actively put into process the concept of all Jews going there to form a nation of their own. They were told they could do it by the oinly body qualified to make such a declaration, and they did. No-one has any right holding that against them.

After all, look back in history, and who the hell isn't sitting on stolen land? The entire of the Americas is stolen, for a start.

Life doesn't work like that. We have rules and laws and arbitrations that set the limits of self-determination. They are in favour of Israel.

If you think that situation is immoral, fair enough, but if you think it is any more moral to try and destroy Israel, then... well, a person thinking that is a fool. There is non other way to resolve the issue if you think the land is stolen... and so therefore, tough. The Celts can't have Britain back either. This is how life goes.

Hitler did what he did because there were NO effective laws. Now there are, and they were born specifcally because of what he did, and all western countries helped create them, and now they must be stood by.

So once more. Hamas is evil, it is universally condemned by civilised nations, and it MUST drop its commitment to terrorism immediately if it ever wants to have relations with the international community- and that is only right and proper.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And because stating it has no right to exist is stating that you will destroy it, as indeed Hamas wishes to do. As they do this by means of terrorist warfare, it should be pretty freaking darn obvious that this is WRONG. The old saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." How applicable that is to today's world I don't know. But obviously to at least some Palestinians, as seen by the outcome of this election, Hamas is seen as an entity willing to fight for their rights to nationhood. Their actions may be deplorable but one should be able to understand the mentality of those who have voted for them.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really. And if it is taken that way it's not the fault of the Hamas. If they actually declare war or attack Israel then that would be war. Stating that Israel has no right to exist, since...well it just exists by opressing others, is a valid argument.

That is fantasically naive.

First of all, if stated by Government policy, then it IS a statement of official purpose. You must have a sense of responsibility in Government; stating a legal nation has no right to exist is the opposite of that.

Secondly, in the situation it is incitement to terrorism, pure and simple.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The old saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." How applicable that is to today's world I don't know. But obviously to at least some Palestinians, as seen by the outcome of this election, Hamas is seen as an entity willing to fight for their rights to nationhood.

Well, it won't last. Hamas has been voted to ower almost by accident. But it's irrelevant anyway- if you vote for evil, don't expect favours from the rest of the world.

How glib. I wonder how you'd view it if Chelmsford, Essex was suddenly subverted for use by another people.

to say a nation has no right to exist in a parlimentary/govermental position is an act of war regardless reasons one have for the statement

yeah if they targeted military instalation instead of civilianc that would be so, as long as they attack innocent ones they aint no freedom fighters.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, it won't last. Hamas has been voted to ower almost by accident. But it's irrelevant anyway- if you vote for evil, don't expect favours from the rest of the world.
it's not evil..not anymore than your current Government...or mine for that matter.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is fantasically naive.

First of all, if stated by Government policy, then it IS a statement of official purpose. You must have a sense of responsibility in Government; stating a legal nation has no right to exist is the opposite of that.

Secondly, in the situation it is incitement to terrorism, pure and simple.

Well sorry, maybe they don't take to the rules people creasted for them. They might jsut state what they believe opwnly. Let's be honest. Israel and the US are basically saying for years that Palastine has no right to exist.

Originally posted by finti
to say a nation has no right to exist in a parlimentary/govermental position is an act of war regardless reasons one have for the statement

yeah if they targeted military instalation instead of civilianc that would be so, as long as they attack innocent ones they aint no freedom fighters.
Well maybe the rest of the world might take it that way...fact though is that it is not.

have your government targeted civilians for slaughter, like in a cramed bus, a market place full of people, a restaurant and so on

oh really and can you back up that claim too

Originally posted by Bardock42
it's not evil..not anymore than your current Government...or mine for that matter.

That is a contemptible statement that has removed any respect I ever had for you.

My word, that is an actively immoral thing to say. You are seriously equating the morals of terrorists with modern western Government? I cannot understand how anyone can be so skewed.

so the minority ways of a piss band of cowardly chicken shit group who doesnt dare confronting armed opponents, they are right and the rest of the world is wrong..........

Hamas should start looking out for the Palestinians as a whole and not just their own jiihad agenda

Originally posted by finti
have your government targeted civilians for slaughter, like in a cramed bus, a market place full of people, a restaurant and so on

oh really and can you back up that claim too

The last government we had consisted of Radicals of the 70's so...yes. But that'S not the point. You are judging them on something they did before....they have to deal with the now. And there is no reason to demand anything of them. they are a Government like any other.

You are denying that the US does not accept Palastines claims for the region that Israel took from them?

so yes they blew up buses and marked places restaurants and so on?

actually thats what I been saying all along that Hamas have to stray away form their past

show me the documents , interviews of leading US officials that does not accept the Palestinian claims of the west bank

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Evil by any sane judgment, Evil by international declaration. Simply evil. Anyone who has a problem with that, I think is a complete idiot.

"How glib. I wonder how you'd view it if Chelmsford, Essex was suddenly subverted for use by another people."

What a totally fatuous comparison. Try and find an even vaguely similar situation and it might be worth answering. Essentially "It's not happening to me so it doesn't matter..." You're ability to empathize is remarkable.
Okay then...
Were Irgun's actions as precursors to the formation of Israel also 'simply evil'? Would they have been viewed as such by the Jewish immigrants?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually, I would deny very strong it is hypocritical, and I think your ability to make moral judgments is seriously screwed up if you equate Israel with the terrorists that attack it.

50 years ago, 1000 years ago- irrelevant. It is done and irreversible, and most importantly, internationally legal.

The Palestinians are opprssed by the West? They are FUNDED by the west. You really should check your facts.

Evil by any sane judgment, Evil by international declaration. Simply evil. Anyone who has a problem with that, I think is a complete idiot.

-

"How glib. I wonder how you'd view it if Chelmsford, Essex was suddenly subverted for use by another people."

What a totally fatuous comparison. Try and find an even vaguely similar situation and it might be worth answering.
I am not saying that Terrorists are "good" (or "evil" for that matter). I am just saying that none of the sides is in any way trying to actually solve that problem. Just right now I see that the Israel Government made a step in the wrong direction. I am sure now it's teh Palasitine turn...and when this will happen I will gladly argue that they made a mistake.

It is not irreversible at all. Where did you get that idea fro?

Evil is jsut a word that is not appliable. Evil doesn't say anything but that you think they are. You have to stiop pretending that the UN is some superiopr moral institution. They are just as neutral as anyone else.

Don't see how that is a wrong coparasion in any ways, by the way.


I ean morally. They are the "evil" ones while Israel are Inoccents that try to lead a good and decent live never doing anything wrong.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is a contemptible statement that has removed any respect I ever had for you.

My word, that is an actively immoral thing to say. You are seriously equating the morals of terrorists with modern western Government? I cannot understand how anyone can be so skewed.

I am sad to have lost all your respect, but it just is the way I feel. They all have sides I agree on and sides I disagree on. they are not jut "evil" there is no such concept as "evil", anyways.

Originally posted by finti
so the minority ways of a piss band of cowardly chicken shit group who doesnt dare confronting armed opponents, they are right and the rest of the world is wrong..........

Hamas should start looking out for the Palestinians as a whole and not just their own jiihad agenda

Well obviously the person that stated that is the only one to know what it meant. How the US and anyone else takes it is irrelevant.

Now, that is something I can agree. And I think we should give them a chance to show that they do.

Originally posted by finti
so yes they blew up buses and marked places restaurants and so on?

actually thats what I been saying all along that Hamas have to stray away form their past

show me the documents , interviews of leading US officials that does not accept the Palestinian claims of the west bank

No...your point?

Well jnot only the Hamas...also the people dealing with them. it is not the Hamas who have to declare anything.

Alright I can't produce those. My impression though was that the US supports Israel's clai for a country in that region that formerly belonged to Palastine..maybe I am wrong.

you need it in with a tea spoon or something?

in a governmental position as of how Hamas have gotten them self into they need to act like a diplomatic, blowing up buses aint diplomatic

that area has changed "owners" for thousands of years now, UN set up the state of Israels as a homelands of the jews, a land that used to be Jewish before they were overthrown

Originally posted by Bardock42
Alright I can't produce those. My impression though was that the US supports Israel's clai for a country in that region that formerly belonged to Palastine..maybe I am wrong. The U.S. has recognised the right for a Palestinian state. However whether this will be a viable state remains to be seen. Even if Israel were to withdraw to within the pre-1967 borders, they would still hold around 80 percent of the territory that was formerly Palestine. Whether they intend to do even that is uncertain, but IMO it is unlikely to do so.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The U.S. has recognised the right for a Palestinian state. However whether this will be a viable state remains to be seen. Even if Israel were to withdraw to within the pre-1967 borders, they would still hold around 80 percent of the territory that was formerly Palestine. Whether they intend to do even that is uncertain, but IMO it is unlikely to do so.

Yeah well but "It's not who they am underneath but what they do that defines them" ....so basically accepting Palastine as State but also accepting Israels borders does not work together

Originally posted by finti
you need it in with a tea spoon or something?

in a governmental position as of how Hamas have gotten them self into they need to act like a diplomatic, blowing up buses aint diplomatic

that area has changed "owners" for thousands of years now, UN set up the state of Israels as a homelands of the jews, a land that used to be Jewish before they were overthrown

Would be nice, yes.

Did the Blow Up a Bus since they got elected?

Wasn't it more like it changed thousands of years ago and then it just recently changed back? I mean why should Israel get a country there? It's not fair at all...they should have gotten a part of Gerany or something. Or unoccupied areas...but creating a country where there already exists one is, as Ush would say "evil", even if the UN agreed to it.

Western media is not going to personify itself, or its allies as 'evil' ; I think this reasoning (by default) has been over-looked so MANY times.

So the argument is that hamas is evil.......as opposed to who ?

Is the west responsable for killing civilians ? Yes, it is, Indircetly, but it is.

nah it changed many times the last thousand years
as to those who don't use violence as a tool for their political goals

Originally posted by finti
nah it changed many times the last thousand years
as to those who don't use violence as a tool for their political goals

So basically, all those nations who strive for peace and deplore the use of arms ?

as for those organisations and political partys that dont use weapons to make a point

Originally posted by finti
as for those organisations and political partys that dont use weapons to make a point

But if the organisations and political parties want weapons to make a point, who is to deny them this ? The UN ? US ? UK ? France ? Russia ? China ?

Originally posted by finti
as to those who don't use violence as a tool for their political goals So compared to no one...

compare to many, as an example in my country(and so it is for most of Europe as well) no political party nor any organisation use violence to get their message forth, they use words.

money talks and money can be traced so you do the math, ................in the end when the money supply runs dry the organisation is on a loosing streak

Originally posted by finti

money talks and money can be traced so you do the math, ................in the end when the money supply runs dry the organisation is on a loosing streak

That is no where near an answer to my question. The subject here is Hamas being 'evil' and I asked as opposed to what, to which you replied that its political parties and organisations who dont advocate the use of violence in their means of achievments.

The reason why you and me and over a million of other people on this planet seem to think that 'Hamas' is evil is cause they are killing Israeli civilians. - FACT

The media says so and Hamas has the balls to claim responsability. Therfore Hamas are evil for claiming responsability. - FACT

Do you want to know who profits off the murderous trade of tens of thousands of civilians that died in civil wars in Africa, Asia, the MIddle East and other regions around the globe ?

The US, UK, France, Russia and China are RESPONSABLE for over 80% of arms that made their way into the hands of evil, that kill so many civilians on the base of ethnicity and religion. - FACT

Sadly, these are the 5 permanent members of the UN. - FACT


You do the math.

and I answered it, what you qwuoted was an answer I made t a different question than this one

and there are more to this earth than US , UK, France, Russia and China

Of course there is more, yet its those countries that are running ahead, making rules and breaking them.

Originally posted by GCG
Ahhhhh ; Good to see 'the anomaly' again ;

forgive WD ; since he changed to dwarf, his insight has been cut short too

I was trying to be sarcastic but failed miserably. It is unfortunate that jaden concentrates more on people's mistakes rather than discuss the topic at hand. But no biggie...

Now, on topic....

A thing to keep in mind is the following. If the American government and EU cuts on foreign aid to the Palestinians where will they go for help? Thus, Iran enters into the stage. And with the current status no one wants Hamas and Iran to work together...there is no logic in cutting the aid to the Palestinians. That would make things more difficult.

I really do hope you aint claim no economical education.....................

Originally posted by finti
I think you need to get more into what was really said and why, Hamas has had an agenda where as the only way to deal with Israel is to blow them up. They also have glorified and recruited suicide bombers among young Palestinians. They dont care if they attack innocent people as long as it is for their cause.
It is issues like these they need to come to terms with, Hamas is in the process of meeting them selves in the door, are they gonna continue the violent way or are they gonna stray away from their past and try a political solution.

US have always had the policy to not to negotiate with terrorists and it aint gonna change now. And there are now doubts wiht the ways Hamas have presentd themselves in the past they aint nothing but a bunch of terrorists

as Hamas and for controlling their own members yes they need to or else they wont have any credibility at all.

you obviously are brainwashy by bush and his adminastrion.
the us goverment cause the entire problem when they moved the jews to palestine territory.
this is the americans fault for not fixin the problem.
clinton was woking on gettin both sides together. but bush completely ruined all with their terrorist agendas.
and how is HAMAS evil????? they figth for their people. HAMAS is not the same as Alqeda. but bush and his buddies want you to believe is the same. do some research.

He's not brainwashed, at all.

come back when you know what we are debating here


wwell blowing up busses, market places shops, restaurants filled with innocent civiliance is an act of evil.............. fighting for their people, they fight for their own agenda, ask the christian Palestinians if they feel Hamas is fighting for them

Originally posted by preysin
you obviously are brainwashy by bush and his adminastrion.
the us goverment cause the entire problem when they moved the jews to palestine territory.
this is the americans fault for not fixin the problem.
clinton was woking on gettin both sides together. but bush completely ruined all with their terrorist agendas.
and how is HAMAS evil????? they figth for their people. HAMAS is not the same as Alqeda. but bush and his buddies want you to believe is the same. do some research.

Wow, now, I just see a fault on the US side now...to blame everything solely on the US is crazy. The Hamas did some really bad thins in my opinion, I jsut think they should get a chance now.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Now, on topic....

A thing to keep in mind is the following. If the American government and EU cuts on foreign aid to the Palestinians where will they go for help? Thus, Iran enters into the stage. And with the current status no one wants Hamas and Iran to work together...there is no logic in cutting the aid to the Palestinians. That would make things more difficult.

Of course it would make things more difficult. One point Hamas has in its favour is that it has respected the ceasefire by not attacking with Suicide bombers and the qassam rockets.

IF People keep saying they are terroristic you are firstly being pre-judical (cause so was Fatah and it changed) so it would be prudent to give peace a chance, and secondly by cutting the finances from the West, you condition Palestine to look for funds in Iraq and Tehran.

Do we want this ? NO.

Hamas was elected DEMOCRATICALLY, by its own people and this decision should be respected.

Originally posted by finti
I really do hope you aint claim no economical education.....................

Education is the most important. These people need to be trained for a trade so that they can make money. They really need engineers, architects, doctors, such and such...


Originally posted by GCG

Hamas was elected DEMOCRATICALLY, by its own people and this decision should be respected.

You can't really respect Terrorism. Sorry, doesn't work like that. And as mention earlier Hamas now has the chance to prove they're no longer a terrorist group. The ball is in their court. Both US and EU are in agreement that Hamas must give up their terrorist past and present.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf

You can't really respect Terrorism. Sorry, doesn't work like that. And as mention earlier Hamas now has the chance to prove they're no longer a terrorist group. The ball is in their court. Both US and EU are in agreement that Hamas must give up their terrorist past and present.

Arafat was a terrorist ; things changed. Fatah was supplied by USSR and China with arms and commited terrorist attacks and hijacks.

Hamas targeted civilians. As you said correctly the bal;l is in their court.

Why should it work for Fatah and not for Hamas ?

EDIT: I dont understand why you quoted me.

Originally posted by GCG
Hamas was elected DEMOCRATICALLY, by its own people and this decision should be respected. Interestingly no speeches from Bush this week on free and fair elections and how the U.S. intends to spread democracy throughout the Middle East. Apparently democracy is only acceptable to the current administration when they favour the outcome of the elections.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Interestingly no speeches from Bush this week on free and fair elections and how the U.S. intends to spread democracy throughout the Middle East. Apparently democracy is only acceptable to the current administration when they favour the outcome of the elections.

Hmm this does seem like a possibility. But maybe he jsut forgot this week.

He would say : "Yeah of course ; It was democratic and we http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif democracy. The palestinian people will now face the consequences of their democratic choice"

Can't say I'm surprised by the result. When you have democracy, and you have a lot of unhappy people that have watched the years slip by with little occurring to improve their lot or give them what they want in life it inevitably happens that they will try something else, even something dangerous, something unproven. And who knows, sometimes it even works.

I like to think, in an optimistic fashion, that HAMAS will use this chance and work in a more peaceable fashion. I mean, it has so many people who are prepared to die for their cause in the fires of martyrdom and all that, so perhaps they should try living for it now. In a fanatical fashion they are passionate, dedicated and it seems at least a little in touch with the Palestinian people and what they want, and maybe more importantly what they need. The thing they need to realise is that Israel isn't going away, what they need to do, for the good of all, is to negotiate. Sharon made a start at least by withdrawing from some occupied areas (for whatever reason.) They have done a lot of bad things that haven't helped anybody but they are infamous for, so nows a chance to do something that deserves to be remembered.

And I think once the furore has died down powers like the US and alike will continue dealing with them. Presenting inflexible absolutes looks good in speeches, but not always in practice. It's one thing not to negotiate with a terrorist organisation led by a man in a cave and working outside of any legitimate form of government - it's another not to deal with a democratically elected government representing a lot of people in one of the most volatile regions on earth, where a loss of aid would lead to a lot of suffering amongst innocent masses. And if the US and EU do cut off all contact it's likely Hamas will turn to nations that have supported it in the past (Iran, Lebanon, Syria etc), nations which the US wouldn't want to get any kind of leg up in the region. And unfortunately, as seen in the past, when push comes to shove the US has supported questionable regimes when they are useful to it's foreign policy. Would it be so odd if the same happened here?

Wow, you really do always type in 3 paragraphs.....

The Fatah faction have been circulating this joke via text messages in Palestine:

"Hamas stopped all suicide bomber operations ahead of the elections, because they needed every vote they could get"

oh boy...