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? in the senate room

Maybe if Sidious can start at the top of the Rotunda, with Maul and Dooku at the very bottom, weaponless, he can win.

Dooku could possibly take sidious himself, possibly but with maul he would be overwhelmed

Maul alone didn't to to poorly against Sidious when they fought. Dooku alone would lose but not by very much. Together they'd win for sure.

I actually doubt these two could take him....Dooku seemed to be in awe of his power when describing him and Maul even more so...Palp coould kill Maul with ease or pull out the force on the two of them

That's PIS; in such a fight as this, neither Dooku nor Maul would be awestruck by Sidious, and their reactions to him are pretty much moot. They don't reflect accurately on his power in comparison to their own. Dooku has shown considerable force mastery and exceptional saber mastery, as has Maul. Together, they can do this.

I would have to give this fight to the Emperor. He's clearly a better duelist then Maul and Dooku and his force powers are a lot stronger.

Uh, no and no. You earn no points for this round.

This is assuming they can work together for a minute. Maul, upon the slightest suggestion Sidious wanted to replace him, has been thrown into killing rages against his enemy and Dooku had nothing but contempt for Maul. Sidious's force mastery surpasses the both of them and he's far superior to Maul, as well as knowing all his moves and skills. Dooku's damn good, but Maul'd go down in moments and Dooku has no chance

I agree with Lightsnake here. Sidious is clearly greater then both of them. Maul is a good lightsaber duelist and Dooku is good in bot dueling and the force.

You do know that in EU Sidious made Maul so mad that Maul fought and nearly killed Sidious, right?

That was the test to determine if Maul was worthy of his position. Sidious was never in any danger there, it was meant to test if Maul was rutheless enough

This is for sure?

Pretty much, yep.

I heard of that. Would you think Sidious would ever put himself in real danger?

Actually, yes...

i agree with lightsnake maul would go down hard first. with dooku strugling it wouldnt be long till he died fighting by himself

sidious put himself in danger when he let mace beat him infront of anikan pretending to be out of lightning power

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That was the test to determine if Maul was worthy of his position. Sidious was never in any danger there, it was meant to test if Maul was rutheless enough
Yes, it was a test. Nevertheless, that fact remains that Maul nearly killed Sidious.

Under controlled circumstances, though

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Under controlled circumstances, though
Yeah, but still...

Originally posted by Lee-San28
sidious put himself in danger when he let mace beat him infront of anikan pretending to be out of lightning power

Mace managed to unarm the Emperor. Plus I think he already knew Anakin would save him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is assuming they can work together for a minute. Maul, upon the slightest suggestion Sidious wanted to replace him, has been thrown into killing rages against his enemy and Dooku had nothing but contempt for Maul. Sidious's force mastery surpasses the both of them and he's far superior to Maul, as well as knowing all his moves and skills. Dooku's damn good, but Maul'd go down in moments and Dooku has no chance

Dooku could likely take Sidious alone in a Lightsaber fight and he is significantly powerful in the Force. Maul could most likely not take Sidious with a Lightsaber.


If they both get Sidious in a Lightsaber fight, Sidious is done for. But if he gets a chance to whip out a Force, they most likely have no chance.

Dooku and Maul would take this...

Originally posted by Sorgo the Cruel
Dooku could likely take Sidious alone in a Lightsaber fight and he is significantly powerful in the Force. Maul could most likely not take Sidious with a Lightsaber.


If they both get Sidious in a Lightsaber fight, Sidious is done for. But if he gets a chance to whip out a Force, they most likely have no chance.
^what he said

If Maul and Dooku can function as a cohesive unit, then Palpie can kiss his ass goodbye.

Even if they do, Palpatine'd annihilate them....which is a massive if. There's also no proof Dooku can take Palp in a saber duel

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's also no proof Dooku can take Palp in a saber duel

Yes there is.....


"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics."

^page 72 of the ROTS novel by Matthew Stover

So Dooku would probably slice Palp in half during one of his gay little flips.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Even if they do, Palpatine'd annihilate them....which is a massive if. There's also no proof Dooku can take Palp in a saber duel


The proof thing works both ways, Lightsnake.

They btoh did about equally well against Yoda in the dueling category. So they're probably about equal with dueling skills.

Originally posted by darthsith19
There's also no proof Dooku can take Palp in a saber duel
They both did about equally well against Yoda in the dueling category. So they're probably about equal with dueling skills.

What, just like he anilated Yoda's Ataru skills?

Originally posted by darthsith19
What, just like he anilated Yoda's Ataru skills?

Bad example. Qui-Gon and Palpatine were nowhere near Yoda's caliber in Ataro. Just like Jeep Wranglers, Yoda is in a class of his own.

Actually, I was under the impression that both Sidious and Yoda were Ataru Masters.

They are.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Bad example. Qui-Gon and Palpatine were nowhere near Yoda's caliber in Ataro. Just like Jeep Wranglers, Yoda is in a class of his own.

For Christs sake! It's Ataru!

And Sidious stalemated with Yoda and there is no conformation that Sidious even used Ataru!

Damn.

Originally posted by Sorgo the Cruel
For Christs sake! It's Ataru!

And Sidious stalemated with Yoda and there is no conformation that Sidious even used Ataru!

Damn.
Is there conformation that Yoda did? And I'm pretty sure there's proof on Ataru. I'll let someone else handle it, though.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Is there conformation that Yoda did? And I'm pretty sure there's proof on Ataru. I'll let someone else handle it, though.
I'm not sure if there is conf. that Yoda did, but im pretty sure, and every1 else says he does.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Is there conformation that Yoda did? And I'm pretty sure there's proof on Ataru. I'll let someone else handle it, though.

Oh my God, dude....


Yoda is basically the Epitome of the Lightsaber Form. He is the Posterboy for Ataru.

Don't even try to say he doesn't use it. You'll get crushed from everyone at this Forum.



Considering you cannot handle it yourself, I'm pretty sure your correct about best leaving it to someone else to dare argue that Sidious uses Ataru.


You think because he flipped twice that he uses Ataru?

He has been said to have blended various Forms from the sources we can currently gather.


No one knows Sidious' Form.

Except GL.

Originally posted by calvin44
Except GL.

That's true too.

Actually I remember talking about this with some people and while this is unconfirmed I will still through it out there. I think that Sidious used Juyo. Why?

Well in the RotS Video game each character, and by extension style, has a specific way to hold their lightsaber in defensive mode, Obi-Wan (form III) is right in front of him, exactly like it is in AotC when he faces Dooku. Dooku (form II) is out to the side (hard to explain), but again, exactly how it is in AotC when he does his formal salute to Yoda. Anakin (form V) has his blade hanging over his shoulder, exactly like it is in RotS when he kills the seperatist leaders. Mace (form VII) has his by his right shoulder, pointing forward, but slightly down. Exactly the same as it is in RotS when he faces Sidious. Why is this important? Well Sidious also puts his lightsaber in exactly the same way when he faces both Mace and Yoda.

This can also provide another reason as to why Mace beat Sidious, Mace used the complete form while Sidious was only using an imcomplete form which Mace had mastered to the highest degree.

Also, this was the form that Maul used, since he would have been taught by Sidious, this makes it likely that Sidious also knew Maul. Also, since it takes years to master one form (I remember hearing somewhere that it took 50 years for Dooku to master form II), it is unlikely that Sidious could have mastered two forms, so he probably taught his style to Maul.

And this would not be a bad form for the sith, it is good against both blasters and lightsabers. Plus it does/can draw upon the darkside, making it good for the sith.

Also, Juyo does use jumping movements, combined with strong blows, really exactly how we see Sidious fight in RotS.


So while I have no actual proof, these things lead up to me thinking that Sidious uses Juyo

Except Dooku was Palpatine's master, Sorgo and stated by Nick Gillard to be a master of all forms/weapons/styles

Yes, cuz NG is the highest level of canon.

When it comes to fights and styles-which HE creates- he's certainly a heavy authority. And Maul reflects upon Sidious's skill in Shadow Hunter

Author Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo derived the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat based on the action that appears in all five Star Wars films to date. An importance notice to the reader: these Jedi histories are not stunt choreographies nor intructions from Episodes I and II Stunt Coordinator Nick Gillard, who developed the exciting sequences we see on screen. Do not attempt fencing without proper safety precautions and training.

See this article and other exciting information in Issue 62 of Star Wars Insider.

http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

NG did NOT create the EU forms of combat as we know them; he is a stunt/fight coordinator. He is not the creator of the forms and indeed, he didn't even know what Vaapad was in an interview awhile back. The idea that NG has the right to say "cideus noes all teh furms!!!11" is ridiculous thinking. He doesn't. And he's contradicted by his own lack of knowledge about the material and his place in the creation of the series. Period.

So? He's still a source on the issue. And even without him, we have Shadow Hunter for proof.

...

He's a source concerning how fights take place IN THE MOVIES. He is not the know-all, see-all of SW fighting. The guy didn't create the forms that are part of the EU continuity and he didn't even know what the hell Vaapad was (He even went so far as to argue that Mace didn't use Vaapad, because he didn't base the on-screen fighting style on it at all). And what, pray tell, is in Shadow Hunter? I have the book on a shelf around here somewhere. Let's here some specific page numbers.

Sidious does NOT know all and having mastered all forms, period. If he had, he must be the most idiotic Sith Lord in existance, since he was beaten by Mace, beaten by Yoda, and beaten by barely trained Luke in lightsaber combat. That's pretty pathetic.

In Shadow Hunter, we hear tell of Sidious's saber skills. I'll try to find where it was. And for Nick, he said Sidious was a master of all forms and styles, why should that only apply to the movies? Who taught Maul that Juyo? Should Lucas's comments only apply to the movies?

As for Yoda and Mace: Both of them were of the strongest Jedi the Order'd ever known and among the best duelists. There's still the Mace fight controversy and Yoda didn't beat him, the fight was inconclusive. Oh, and mastery of so and so doesn't mean you'll beat another guy who's a master of so and so. And don't get me started on Luke, the fact that Luke was fighting with nearly the entire backing of the force...

In Shadow Hunter, we hear tell of Sidious's saber skills. I'll try to find where it was.

Okay. Lemme know when you get it via PM or something.

And for Nick, he said Sidious was a master of all forms and styles, why should that only apply to the movies?

Really, it should be written off as unproven hyperbole. But if you want to treat it as fact, it must have grounding in the movies for it to count as movie canon. And it doesn't. There is no clear indication of him being a amster of all forms and styles. Indeed, he didn't even prove to be ambidextrous as NG predicted. NG is just a Sidious fanboy and full of shit.

Who taught Maul that Juyo?

Sidious. I think Sidious used Juyo. Doubt he mastered it, since it's an incomplete form, but still... I've said Sidious used Juyo for months now.

Should Lucas's comments only apply to the movies?

If you're taking a statement that is oriented towards the movies (Which GL's statements always are) and you suddenly apply it to the EU continuity as a whole you are basically saying GL is the "God" of that realm too, despite the fact that he doesn't know shit about it. Really, it doesn't make any sense.


As for Yoda and Mace: Both of them were of the strongest Jedi the Order'd ever known and among the best duelists.

This is extremely subjective and up for debate. Don't proclaim it as fact.

There's still the Mace fight controversy and Yoda didn't beat him, the fight was inconclusive.

Mace beat Sidious using his saber alone. Yoda disarmed Sidious in saber combat. Therefore, unless they are incredibly uber saber gods (Which they aren't) Sidious isn't a lightsaber master, period. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Oh, and mastery of so and so doesn't mean you'll beat another guy who's a master of so and so.

More often than not, yes, it does. If I have a knight of over twenty eyars experience versus a peon and both just have swords, that peon is gonna die. Period.

And don't get me started on Luke, the fact that Luke was fighting with nearly the entire backing of the force...

lol

The Entire backing of the Force? Wow. That's just a hilarious concept. Impossible, too.

That's completely unfair. Nick is the man who designs the styles. Is he a Dooku fanboy too? And Sidious would be able to teach Maul the mastered Juyo without mastering it? We know he mastered a helluva lot else, Tera Kasi included. And it's not subjective at all that Mace and Yoda was both amazing fighters and Jedi.

And Mace and Yoda are 'uber saber gods'. Mace: Described as one of the greatest duelists the Order'd ever produced. Yoda was described as up there as well and he's better than Mace. There's NOTHING supporting their inferiority.

Oh, Mace was a peon now? He was just ten years younger than Sidious and a master of Vaapad, meaning he'd have to have mastered a style're two himself. A master of numerous forms could meet the ultiamte master of one form and it'd be inconclusive

No, backing of the Force is NOT impossible and don't give me hyperbole. It happened in Star by Star, it happened in The Unifying Force, it happened in Dark Empire. Hell, it even said: "never before in history and never again would there be a battle such as this." The echoes of the struggle were felt across the universe

And ah, in the Insider thing I use, it's said 'He had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber.'

Albeit that doesn't say he'd mastered all of them, but it's something

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's completely unfair. Nick is the man who designs the styles.


Can't you read ? Nick Gillard is not the one who designed the styles he just orchestred the battles in the movies and it even goes so far that he told us that "no specifical styles exists for the characters" he just designs movements but not the styles.



Juyo is descriped as an unfinished art and if something is unfinished it can logically not be mastered. Mace Windu completed Juyo with his Vaapad. So unless you want to tell us that Sidious knew Vaapad and mastered it he can't have mastered Juyo. Period.



Dooku: Descriped as being on par with both Mace and Yoda. Now...go and use some logic. Yoda beats Sidious, Mace beats Sidious - Dooku who mastered the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and used it for 50 years can't ?



There is pretty much nothing that indicates that Sidious did anything else but use Juyo to a certain extend which isn't on Mace Windu's level and then taught that style to Maul.



Do we again have to argue that point ? If somebody is backed up by the entirety of the force that means he is backed up by the lifeforce of every single living being in the entire Galaxy and - while facing an opponent who is another force user - it would mean that one would even use the opponents own power against him. And that's impossible.

He does seem to know at least two. The style he used in his office and the style he used in the Great Rotunda were definately different styles.

Sorgo, I never said Yoda didn't use it. Simply asked where the proof was.


So Sidious flipped twice, huh? Well, if I remember correctly, Qui-Gon used Ataru and he never flipped. Where did you get the idea that filpping = Ataru?

Form IV is the most acrobatic form ever developed. In this form the Jedi uses the Force to go beyond what is physically possible. Jumps, spins and runs.
The form is filled with elaborate moves in which the Jedi stands as the center of the blur formed by his lightsaber.

I've looked this up on about 50 pages and this is wat i have compiled(not canon, but accepted on every site i went to).

and qui-gon did his share of flipping in the jedi-apprentice series.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can't you read ? Nick Gillard is not the one who designed the styles he just orchestred the battles in the movies and it even goes so far that he told us that "no specifical styles exists for the characters" he just designs movements but not the styles.



Juyo is descriped as an unfinished art and if something is unfinished it can logically not be mastered. Mace Windu completed Juyo with his Vaapad. So unless you want to tell us that Sidious knew Vaapad and mastered it he can't have mastered Juyo. Period.



Dooku: Descriped as being on par with both Mace and Yoda. Now...go and use some logic. Yoda beats Sidious, Mace beats Sidious - Dooku who mastered the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and used it for 50 years can't ?



There is pretty much nothing that indicates that Sidious did anything else but use Juyo to a certain extend which isn't on Mace Windu's level and then taught that style to Maul.



Do we again have to argue that point ? If somebody is backed up by the entirety of the force that means he is backed up by the lifeforce of every single living being in the entire Galaxy and - while facing an opponent who is another force user - it would mean that one would even use the opponents own power against him. And that's impossible.

1. He designed them for the movies, that's what matters and is first and foremost. Period.

2. 'Mastered the styles and forms of the lightsaber'....and Sidious had access to a master Vaapad user during the Clone Wars, too.

3. Dooku feared Sidious. Just because A>B doesn't mean A>C in dueling...otherwise can Obi-wan beat Dooku?

4. The force backed them, end of story. Bad Phrasing? Possibly. However, Luke, Ganner, Anakin and JAcen have all become pure and complete conduits to the power of the Force itself. Just because you can't make sense of it does not mean it's impossible

Yo'ure missing the point. The movies are G-canon. Nick Gillard's word is not. He is not George Lucas. He has said stuff that contradicts C-canon several times and that makes it suspect.

So is Lucas' personal assistant the star wars king now too? Amazing what you'd twist so it works for you.



Is that why Mace is described as the "only one" to master Vaapad? Please.



That's only because there's it's own controversy in the Dooku Anakin duel, especially since Dooku dispatched both of them rather easily.

And besides, you're missing the point: You said:



No proof. Where is it stated they are THE STRONGEST THE ORDER'D EVER KNOWN? You use subjective BS, you'll get it stuffed in your face in an OBJECTIVE debate. Prove this statement, concede this argument, or don't bother.



The statement falls victim to hyperbole because it is logically impossible.

If a comic says Batman can jump over buildings, I can chalk that up to hyperbole because Batman is a normal human, and that's impossible. You won't see him jumping over any Sears Towers any tme soon. You have yet to establish it as anything but hyperbole. In fact, there are numerous instances where the ancient sith said the "dark side" flew through him, does that mean they are a conduit too? No evidence.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He designed them for the movies, that's what matters and is first and foremost. Period.

Again: He did design the fights but he has absolutely nothing to do with the lightsaber styles as they appear in the EU. Period.



Read Shatterpoint. Sidious didn't even know something about Vaapad and this is after Sora Bulq went dark. Mace in the book even states that Sora never mastered the style. So unless Mace Windu personally taught Vaapad to Sidious there is no way for Sidious to know that style. Period.



This is just comparing their strength leaving out personal relationship of the characters otherwise you could just say that both Maul and Dooku wouldn't try to fight Sidious. So cut that out.
And as it seems you're talking about Anakin vs Dooku - Dooku was sent there to throw the fight (read the novel) and Anakin surprised him. Does that mean Anakin > Dooku in terms of duelling. No.



It is impossible since "becoming a conduit of the force" would mean that you yourself become the force - the entirety energy stored in all life forms throughout the entire Galaxy. It's simply impossible as it is. They might have become very close to the force (in terms of attunement to it) but sure as hell no "pure conduit", "avatar" or similar things "of the force".

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
For Christs sake! It's Ataru!

Then why does the ROTS novel spell it with an "O"?

It's a typo.

It's not just once; its in every single word of "Ataro".

Then how come every other book and source list it as "Ataru"?

IDK, but I would consider the ROTS Novel more reliable than some random EU Clone Wars novel.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Then why does the ROTS novel spell it with an "O"?


The ROTS Novel is total shit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Dooku was Palpatine's master, Sorgo and stated by Nick Gillard to be a master of all forms/weapons/styles


What the f*ck? I never said Dooku was Palpatine and I never said he knew all of the Forms.


Don't put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
The ROTS Novel is total shit.

Gee thanks. That explains it.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Gee thanks. That explains it.


You're right. It does.


Can you explain Kit Fisto's head being on a desk when that didn't happen in the movie?

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
IDK, but I would consider the ROTS Novel more reliable than some random EU Clone Wars novel.

Unfortunately, it's Ataru in every other source in the EU universe. And since the ROTS novel and Matthew Stover didn't invent the term, the original definition trumps his botched spelling. Period.

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
Can you explain Kit Fisto's head being on a desk when that didn't happen in the movie?

No, but it's definately a blatant descrepency. Describing a fight in a book is a lot different than just showing it on film. I guess the author thought it would seem cool and interesting to the reader....

"On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way throught wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horriffic battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too."

^ That's a lot more interesting to read in a book than if it just said "Palpatine slashed Kit Fisto and he dropped dead like a sack of potatoes."

....But thats between the book and the movie; the Ataru/Ataro thing is a whole different ballgame. The very word itself is EU, and the ROTS novel holds more credibility than some Clone Wars comic book.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
No, but it's definately a blatant descrepency. Describing a fight in a book is a lot different than just showing it on film. I guess the author thought it would seem cool and interesting to the reader....

"On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way throught wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horriffic battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too."

^ That's a lot more interesting to read in a book than if it just said "Palpatine slashed Kit Fisto and he dropped dead like a sack of potatoes."

....But thats between the book and the movie; the Ataru/Ataro thing is a whole different ballgame. The very word itself is EU, and the ROTS novel holds more credibility than some Clone Wars comic book.

WTF? Are you just.... not with it?

You mean in all the EU sources that describe Ataru (From games, novels, Visual Dictionaries, etc. and on) must be wrong because it's spelled "Ataro" in the novelisation of the movie?

You DO realize that Ataru is strictly a non-movie concept, right?

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
You mean in all the EU sources that describe Ataru (From games, novels, Visual Dictionaries, etc. and on) must be wrong because it's spelled "Ataro" in the novelisation of the movie?

Well, yeah. Doesn't the novelisation of the movie have more credibility over other EU? Or do you prefer holding some video game on higher a plateau than the novel?

I have to go with Dooku and Maul, but just barely defeating Sidious, and maybe Sidious retreating.

can someone tell me the novels in which Maul fought Sidious, and when Maul met Dooku, I think I would like to read them.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Well, yeah. Doesn't the novelisation of the movie have more credibility over other EU? Or do you prefer holding some video game on higher a plateau than the novel?

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.

C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)


Read that carefully.

Novelisations are C-canon. Infact, the SW novelisation is considered the first EU work, along with Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Therefore, the ROTS novelisation and say, KOTOR or the Visual Dictionaries credibility are on a level playing field. And since tons of EU sources say "ataru", and only the ROTS novelisation says "ataro", the majority wins. Also, the term did NOT originate with the ROTS novelisation, therefore the author (Stover) does not have the authority nor the right to retcon it or otherwise change the spelling as he sees fit.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yo'ure missing the point. The movies are G-canon. Nick Gillard's word is not. He is not George Lucas. He has said stuff that contradicts C-canon several times and that makes it suspect.

So is Lucas' personal assistant the star wars king now too? Amazing what you'd twist so it works for you.



Is that why Mace is described as the "only one" to master Vaapad? Please.



That's only because there's it's own controversy in the Dooku Anakin duel, especially since Dooku dispatched both of them rather easily.

And besides, you're missing the point: You said:



No proof. Where is it stated they are THE STRONGEST THE ORDER'D EVER KNOWN? You use subjective BS, you'll get it stuffed in your face in an OBJECTIVE debate. Prove this statement, concede this argument, or don't bother.



The statement falls victim to hyperbole because it is logically impossible.

If a comic says Batman can jump over buildings, I can chalk that up to hyperbole because Batman is a normal human, and that's impossible. You won't see him jumping over any Sears Towers any tme soon. You have yet to establish it as anything but hyperbole. In fact, there are numerous instances where the ancient sith said the "dark side" flew through him, does that mean they are a conduit too? No evidence.

1. He's still official on the matter.

2. Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba. He was the only living master of it. Sora was dead and Depa good as dead.

3. From the novelization, to the visual guides, to the encyclopedia, to logic over their skills and powers we've seen in action.

4. Batman's not a normal human, that's why he's Batman. And impossible? It's not, that's why it happened. We see Jacen become a pure conduit of the entire force, same with Anakin and Ganner. We see Luke call up all the energy of the entire galaxy against Palpatine. You say there's no evidence, but it's stated right there that Luke called upon the full strength of the light and Jacen ebcame a oure and utter conduit of the force and dispatched Onimi. ust because we don't get it doesn't make it impossible.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Again: He did design the fights but he has absolutely nothing to do with the lightsaber styles as they appear in the EU. Period.



Read Shatterpoint. Sidious didn't even know something about Vaapad and this is after Sora Bulq went dark. Mace in the book even states that Sora never mastered the style. So unless Mace Windu personally taught Vaapad to Sidious there is no way for Sidious to know that style. Period.



This is just comparing their strength leaving out personal relationship of the characters otherwise you could just say that both Maul and Dooku wouldn't try to fight Sidious. So cut that out.
And as it seems you're talking about Anakin vs Dooku - Dooku was sent there to throw the fight (read the novel) and Anakin surprised him. Does that mean Anakin > Dooku in terms of duelling. No.



It is impossible since "becoming a conduit of the force" would mean that you yourself become the force - the entirety energy stored in all life forms throughout the entire Galaxy. It's simply impossible as it is. They might have become very close to the force (in terms of attunement to it) but sure as hell no "pure conduit", "avatar" or similar things "of the force".

1. Fine. We';ve still got Shadow Hunter and the earlier quote,t hough.

2. Mace said Vaapad mastered Sora and before Sora goes dark, Mace's tune is quite changed...how would Mace know about Sidious at all in SP? Sora manages to square off with Mace for a short time withVaapad and Mace considered him a master...he said it mastered him because he went dark

3. And in the novel Dooku is fighting seriously because the plan went awry. And no, mentality is a large part of fighting. Anakin was better than Dooku.

4. Except there are. Because it's outright stated to happen in several cases. Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's impossible. Jacen does it, Luke does it and Anakin does it. Luke calls up all the power of the force from all beings, planets, metal, grass....Luke did use all of the energy of the Force and Jacen did the same. They opened themselves up entirely to the Force, it's right there, written down.

OH and Sorgo, here's the Kit's ehad explanation: Stover got that fromt he script, Lucas changed it. The novelizations and radio dramas do take a bit of precedence over other EU, I believe is the policy

No, NG is not "teh uber sowrce", Lightsnake. I know you want to believe he is, but he isn't. I've shown you proof that NG had nothing to do with the EU forms and styles. I've shown you the SW canon policy, where ideas that come from GL and GL alone (through the movies, etc.) are G-canon, and C-canon includes all of EU. Nick Gillard is not listed in the canon hierarchy, and his words are unsubstantiated hyperbole, period.

No, but it's definately a blatant descrepency. Describing a fight in a book is a lot different than just showing it on film. I guess the author thought it would seem cool and interesting to the reader....

"On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way throught wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horriffic battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too."

^ That's a lot more interesting to read in a book than if it just said "Palpatine slashed Kit Fisto and he dropped dead like a sack of potatoes."

I didn't have to read all that to tell you that it's irrelevant to the point that Fisto's death from the book ALTERED from what happened in the movie. And you saying that Kit's head getting lopped off is more interesting than him getting outmaneuvered and slashed to the floor is your opinion and is NOT a good excuse for the Novelisation to have said what was wrong.

....But thats between the book and the movie; the Ataru/Ataro thing is a whole different ballgame. The very word itself is EU, and the ROTS novel holds more credibility than some Clone Wars comic book.

The ROTS contains Fallacy to the movie, damnit! How the hell would it hold more water than some EU Books that don't interfere with the Movie like the Novel did?

I smell a Non Sequitur.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He's still official on the matter.
NG doesn't constantly work for lucasarts, and is only hired some times, which is anything but official.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Fine. We';ve still got Shadow Hunter and the earlier quote,t hough.

2. Mace said Vaapad mastered Sora and before Sora goes dark, Mace's tune is quite changed...how would Mace know about Sidious at all in SP? Sora manages to square off with Mace for a short time withVaapad and Mace considered him a master...he said it mastered him because he went dark

3. And in the novel Dooku is fighting seriously because the plan went awry. And no, mentality is a large part of fighting. Anakin was better than Dooku.

4. Except there are. Because it's outright stated to happen in several cases. Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's impossible. Jacen does it, Luke does it and Anakin does it. Luke calls up all the power of the force from all beings, planets, metal, grass....Luke did use all of the energy of the Force and Jacen did the same. They opened themselves up entirely to the Force, it's right there, written down.

OH and Sorgo, here's the Kit's ehad explanation: Stover got that fromt he script, Lucas changed it. The novelizations and radio dramas do take a bit of precedence over other EU, I believe is the policy

The one change virtually renders the book useless.

It goes DIRECTLY AGAINST CANON! Do you understand that?

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
The ROTS contains Fallacy to the movie, damnit! How the hell would it hold more water than some EU Books that don't interfere with the Movie like the Novel did?

True that. I aint even gonna argue, the ROTS novel contradicts the movie almost the entire time. But thats expected, movie/book versions of the same story are never exact. Jurassic Park is a good example----the book came first in 1989, and in it, there were 8 more dinosaur species than in the movie and John Hammond died at the end. In the 1993 flick, the old man lives, and comes back in the 1997 sequel. Bottom Line: the book and the movie can't be identical. Besides, everyone knows that the book is always better. 'Naw mean?


Sorgo, lemme axe you a question....what EU do you consider to hold more water than the novel?

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
True that. I aint even gonna argue, the ROTS novel contradicts the movie almost the entire time. But thats expected, movie/book versions of the same story are never exact. Jurassic Park is a good example----the book came first in 1989, and in it, there were 8 more dinosaur species than in the movie and John Hammond died at the end. In the 1993 flick, the old man lives, and comes back in the 1997 sequel. Bottom Line: the book and the movie can't be identical. Besides, everyone knows that the book is always better. 'Naw mean?


Sorgo, lemme axe you a question....what EU do you consider to hold more water than the novel?

Other Novels that don't contradict the Movie.

Wouldn't that be damn-near every other novel?

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Wouldn't that be damn-near every other novel?

Yes. Except for the ROTS Novel.

I don't know. I haven't read all the Novels. I don't know what contradicts the Movies and what does not.

The only series that completely don't contracdict the movies, are the Clone Wars novels, they do a good job of keeping organization.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Fine. We';ve still got Shadow Hunter and the earlier quote,t hough.


How would Sidious know about Vaapad in Shadow Hunter, please ? This is before TPM...



In Shatterpoint Yoda and Mace are talking in Sidious office who should be sent to deal with Depa and Mace thinks he's the only person that might be able to confront her because of Vaapad - and Sidious doesn't even know that name. And even if you want to assume that Sora was a Vaapad master (which Mace contradicts) he didn't have the time to teach it to Sidious (did he even meet Sidious ?) and even if he told Sidious about it Sidious wouldn't have the time to master it because mastering lightsaber styles takes years of intensive practice.



Anakin was Obi-Wan's equal as we have all seen them fighting the longest duel in the entire saga. Dooku tooled Obi-Wan in AotC and in ROTS easily. So how can you say that Anakin is the superior duellist ? Dooku is taunting him and then he's surprised by Anakin because he isn't fighting serious (he even moves different in the movie compared to AotC) and even in the novel his "serious" fighting ends when he has knocked out Obi-Wan.



If you use the entire energy of the force that would result in all lifeforms dying because you drain their life energy. Not to mention that nobody else would be able to use the force in that time because you have the entire power of it. "Opening yourself up entirely to the force" is not "using the entire force as a resource for power".