Possbly new evidence

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calvin44
Some of you say that Vader was holding back against Luke in ESB, but why would the emperor want Luke, only if not to replace Vader: because he was more powerful.

Dark Aristokrat
I don't quite understand the question. Rephrase.

calvin44
Some of you say that Vader was holding back against Luke in ESB, but why would the emperor want Luke, only if not to replace Vader? It was because he was more powerful.

Spearhead
that wasn't rewording the question...

plus, what IS the question? there's no argument that luke was powerful than vader...so the point is what?

calvin44
because in many threads, it's an endless debate that vader was holding back.

Illustrious
Originally posted by calvin44
because in many threads, it's an endless debate that vader was holding back.

He was holding back in ESB. He could have easily killed Luke. He wanted a younger apprentice with more potential.

Tangible God
Luke did NOT have the ability to beat Vader in ESB, likely ROTJ as well. Palpatine wanted to COMPLETE HIS TRAINING!

calvin44
Originally posted by Tangible God
Palpatine wanted to COMPLETE HIS TRAINING!
Who's training?

Tangible God
Palpatine to Luke: "I'm looking foward to completing your training. In time you will call me, master."

Cascador
It's a doube twist:

Vader did hold back in ESB, cause he wanted Luke to defeat the emperor, cause in the beginning of the fight he wanted him in carbonite, cause he considered Luke weak and thought that the emperor was wrong about him being strong. But as the fight progressed Vader finds out Luke has a lot of potential. Vader wanted to become the master and wanted his son to become the pupil. But Vader was too weak to kill the emperor and needed Luke to kill him. That's why he holds back and tries to seduce him in ESB. With the emperor not in sight he couldn't block Vader's plan but as soon as we get to ROTJ the emperor stood in the way of Vader's plan. The Emperor wanted to replace Vader with Luke. So Vader knew that it was either him who gets killed or Luke so he's not holding back there. Luke became stronger. IMO they were about equally strong altho when Luke tapped in the Dark Side he got stronger. Vader saw his end coming, but Luke didn't kill him. Well you know the rest of the story... so in the end yes he was holding back in ESB but I don't think so in ROTJ.

Tangible God
Hmm, that's convincing. Also the Emperor DID know that Vader had plotted behind his back.

JaehSkywalker
oh heck. you just made my puzzlement worse. rephrase all of them again.

spekdah
IF only that saber strike Luke managed to get on Vaders shoulder armour in ESB was angled a little more shallow then there would have been a headless Vader and no threads like this.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by spekdah
IF only that saber strike Luke managed to get on Vaders shoulder armour in ESB was angled a little more shallow then there would have been a headless Vader and no threads like this.

agreed.....


BUT, yes Vader was holding back, but not just because he wanted pupil...he wanted his SON. He thought his child was dead with his wife, so when he knew who Luke was, he got kinda soft for him...even when Vader was talking to Palps in ESB, he was already trying to make excuses for not killing luke.

But you can tell he was holding back because as soon as Luke tagged him, off went Lukes hand. i think he was holding back in ROTJ as well, Had he wanted Luke deqad, he wouild have and could have killed him many times before the fight. The love for his son, is what allowed him to kill Palps and thats also what kept him from killing someone else he loved.

Cascador

Gamblor
Yep. Remember in ESB he owns Luke in a few seconds after he looses his patience.

Delta 62
Vader had no feelings for Luke when he spoke to Sidious other than he might be able to use him against the Emperor.. but he WAS just feeding Sidious crap to shut him up.

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