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Obi from ROTS. Who takes it?

Setting is Mustafar.

I'd say Obi-Wan. Bandon was at best a mediocre Sith. Sure, he was Malak's apprentice, but he was still under going his training, and obviously hadn't gotten too far into it.

Although granted, it was Revan, arguably one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time, however this was before he even realized who he was or coming near his original strength.

However, Obi-Wan is one of the best Masters of his era, bested probably only by Mace and Yoda. I think Obi has much more experience and training, in addition to the skill to back it up, and would waste Bandon before he could even make one of his stupid taunts.

A mediocre Sith? He was undefeated and he was chosen to be Malak's apprentice out of thousands of Sith. Obviously hadn't got far into his training? That's unsubstantiated hyperbole. He had 20+ years of Jedi training coupled with 2+ years of Sith training.



And? Your party members could have killed Bandon.



Experience? Bandon fought in a war with legions of Jedi and Sith fighting. I'd say that fighting actual people in war beats sparring with your apprentice.

Obi-Wan's cleverness grants him this victory IMO.

Cleverness? Substantiate...

Well, Bandon did seem like a cocky bastard, with his puny insults and all. Obi-Wan uses that to his advantage. Remember Anakin? Bandon is young. I wouldn't put it past him to pull a stunt like that.

And also, Obi-Wan is strong with the Lucky side of the Force. Remember Maul?

Originally posted by Hello Friend
Well, Bandon did seem like a cocky bastard, with his puny insults and all. Obi-Wan uses that to his advantage. Remember Anakin? Bandon is young. I wouldn't put it past him to pull a stunt like that.

And also, Obi-Wan is strong with the Lucky side of the Force. Remember Maul?

Lucky side of the force? WTF? Just shut up, are you arguing that Obi-Wan will win because he's lucky!?

Cocky bastard? Seemed like, yes. But we have no indication of his IQ or his intelligence or much else, to be honest.

And also, Obi-Wan is strong with the Lucky side of the Force. Remember Maul?

Yep, the lucky side of the force sure helped him against Dooku.

The luck part wasn't a serious add-on >_<

Originally posted by Darth Traya
A mediocre Sith? He was undefeated and he was chosen to be Malak's apprentice out of thousands of Sith. Obviously hadn't got far into his training? That's unsubstantiated hyperbole. He had 20+ years of Jedi training coupled with 2+ years of Sith training.

Being chosen to be someone's apprentice doesn't mean he was second in the Empire bby power, just that he was most suited to the job. Anakin took Dooku's place, yet Dooku could have pwned Anakin.

Random Jedi 'X' is undefeated also. Unless we know that he actually fought someone of importance, it's just another notch on his belt, feat wars.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
And? Your party members could have killed Bandon.

Could have, but how many of your party members could take ROTS Obi-wan?

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Experience? Bandon fought in a war with legions of Jedi and Sith fighting. I'd say that fighting actual people in war beats sparring with your apprentice.

Obi-wan's fought other lightsaber user's in real combat 10 or so times. According to one of the item descriptions in KOTOR, that makes him a masterblade to the Sith even in KOTOR times.

Even Exar Kun probably didn't fight many more then 10 people in actual combat with a lightsaber. How many did Bandon kill personally?

I like how you're the first to point and say "feat wars", Glentract, when it's because of you I invented the term in the first place.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
A mediocre Sith? He was undefeated and he was chosen to be Malak's apprentice out of thousands of Sith. Obviously hadn't got far into his training? That's unsubstantiated hyperbole. He had 20+ years of Jedi training coupled with 2+ years of Sith training.
since when did he have jedi training?

Since he was a jedi. Read his profile on the KOTOR website.

ok.

It says nothing about "20 years".

That is probably assuming that he was trained from birth. However, since KotOR jedi were not all trained from birth, this is possibly not true. However, he would still have had several years of training so it is safe to assume he has at least 2 (likely more) years of jedi training

Actually, I am not sure, but did he fight in the Mandalorian Wars?
If he did then he had several years of training before that (you would not take a raw trainee to war) and that would also add to his fighting experience

I'm assuming he did. If he barely joined in the Mandalorian Wars, I doubt he would have risen so far in the New Sith Empire.

Safe assumption

So then using that, we can assume that he had at least 2+ years of jedi training before the wars, then however long the wars were, then the several years at the sith academy while Revan and Malak were searching, then the years under Malak.

So really, the guy did have a fair bit of experience

But he still got pwned.

pwned?

How do you know this?

He got beat by Revan, which is hardly much of a count against him, in that time, everyone got beat by Revan.

I'm just saying Revan pwned him...which is true.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I like how you're the first to point and say "feat wars", Glentract, when it's because of you I invented the term in the first place.

I think you said that to Emperor Revan first, actually, but I be willing to settle for second place. Just because I have used feats before doesn't mean I am always going to use them.

BTW, the Jedi sent children to fight in the New Sith War. Bandon may have only had a few months before the Mandalorian War(assuming he fought in it, he may have been part of that group turned after) since that was about all Nomi had before she went to fight in the Great Sith War.

Nomi didn't fight for shit, Glentract. Here are her accomplishments: On several occasions, she dispelled Aleema's illusions. She was on Coruscant when it was attacked, and was with Thon when he was attacked. Then she blocked Ulic from the force, and then went with all the other Jedi in the galaxy to stop Exar Kun. Again, TSW was hardly what you could call a real war.

That and she was already apparently good enough to be a part of Arca's team in the Freedon Nadd uprising, a good deal of time before the Sith War. She's not the inexperienced child you continually make her out to be.

"Essential guides" are shit.

Now, now. I'm trying to point out that being undefeated in a time of war where people use sabres on masse is not a mean feat.



And? I'm arguing that your party members could have killed Bandon. And trying to compare the skills of any KotOR characters to anything else is usually a moot point.



Masterblade? If you're going to give out item descriptions from KotOR then please give me the item description.



Your point being? Are you trying to say that Kenobi can rival Kun? And by the way, asking how many people Bandon killed personally is a crap point, you know that.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Now, now. I'm trying to point out that being undefeated in a time of war where people use sabres on masse is not a mean feat.

Most people in either of those wars didn't use lightsabers actually. Even if 1 out of every 100 people used lightsabers and the Republic was only half the size that it was in PT times, thats less then 1 person per 50 planets. Far to low.

In anycase, Obi-wan does have experince in blocking blaster bolts, which although it will not directly increase his dueling ability will help him with speed and more general things. Quote from Janus from DTF, "Hell, just read the Cestus Deception, the Approaching Storm, and Medstar duology and you can see how extensive even the peacetime jedi took their saber combat, drilling endlessly, and with many combatants." Obi-wan has plenty of saber-on-saber experince and has fought in real fights many times. I don't see Bandon's advantage in this area as most of the strong people we know who killed them(Malak, Traya, Sion, Nihilus, Mandalore, Yussanis, Vandar, Vrook, Kavar.)

Originally posted by Darth Traya
And? I'm arguing that your party members could have killed Bandon. And trying to compare the skills of any KotOR characters to anything else is usually a moot point.

How does party members being the ones who killed Bandon mean anything? Revan had people with, Bandon had people with him. I don't know why they were brought up in the first place.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Masterblade? If you're going to give out item descriptions from KotOR then please give me the item description.

Under the Tremor sword one, I believe.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Your point being? Are you trying to say that Kenobi can rival Kun? And by the way, asking how many people Bandon killed personally is a crap point, you know that.

Weren't you just the one who said he is so impressive because of all the people he has killed in lightsaber combat? If the number doesn't matter, then how is he any better then anyone from any other time?

Honestly? Bandon is a Sith Lord. He uses his lightsaber to deadly effect, being undefeated. Obi-Wan has lost to:

Asajj
Dooku
Nearly lost to Anakin
At one point was about equal with Kit Fisto
Darth Maul (technically, he did lose the match, even though he won through a contrived recovery)

There may be more, I've forgotten.

In any case, your point about "1 per 50 planets" is moot. You're again trying to rationalize everything with abstract numbers that aren't founded in any real evidence or logic. The Jedi Order that was in the skies over Yavin during the Sith Wars (Read: 40 years before KOTOR) was listed as being in the thousands. The PT era at most was ten thousand (And again, I have not yet seen that number backed up with evidence). How you can conclude that Bandon didn't get that much experience and hardly anyone used lightsabers is beyond me. This is also apparently avoiding the fact that the New Sith Empire not only fought Jedi, it converted them and brougt new Sith acolytes into its ranks.

Look at the organization: The New Sith Empire, where the strong achieve success and dominate over the weak. Bandon played second only to Malak.

Then look at Obi-Wan, perhaps the third placed Jedi AFTER severe losses during the Clone Wars.

Now, you know I'm not just shitting you, Glentract. Obi-Wan IS my favorite Jedi of all time. Easily my favorite character in the series. But Bandon simply outclasses him. Bandon's station and reputation imply a far better rep than Obi-Wan had, for sure.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Honestly? Bandon is a Sith Lord. He uses his lightsaber to deadly effect, being undefeated. Obi-Wan has lost to:

Asajj
Dooku
Nearly lost to Anakin
At one point was about equal with Kit Fisto
Darth Maul (technically, he did lose the match, even though he won through a contrived recovery)

There may be more, I've forgotten.

Asajj - He lost to her how long before ROTS?
Dooku - Is Bandon as good as Dooku? It's a totally different fight.
Anakin - Nearly? I don't remember there being any luck in it at all. He defeated him through superior lightsaber fighting skill.
Fisto - He's had 2 years to get better since then. "At one point" is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard from you. As a fetus, there is a good chance Obi-wan was about equal to Exar Kun.
Maul - He was a padawan. Now he's got double the experience and a good amount of time at war.

Those aren't even relevent except Dooku and maybe Anakin as he defeated all of them, or is believed to be able to, by ROTS, the only skill level for Obi-wan that matters in this thread.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
In any case, your point about "1 per 50 planets" is moot. You're again trying to rationalize everything with abstract numbers that aren't founded in any real evidence or logic. The Jedi Order that was in the skies over Yavin during the Sith Wars (Read: 40 years before KOTOR) was listed as being in the thousands. The PT era at most was ten thousand (And again, I have not yet seen that number backed up with evidence).

Janus, the numbers aren't abstract at all. 10000 Jedi for 500,000 planets, assuming the Republic was only half as big as it was during PT times. The group over Yavin must have been a very high percentage of the Order then.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
How you can conclude that Bandon didn't get that much experience and hardly anyone used lightsabers is beyond me. This is also apparently avoiding the fact that the New Sith Empire not only fought Jedi, it converted them and brougt new Sith acolytes into its ranks.

Think of it another way. There's a Sith for every Jedi. How many is Bandon going to reasonably fight? If he cuts down hundreds, or even dozens, it becomes horribly in the Sith's favor as we never really here of the Jedi people who can match Bandon(Vrook, Kavar) fighting any Sith personally.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Look at the organization: The New Sith Empire, where the strong achieve success and dominate over the weak. Bandon played second only to Malak.

Then look at Obi-Wan, perhaps the third placed Jedi AFTER severe losses during the Clone Wars.

Bandon was possibly second AFTER severe losses in the Mandalorian War. And that's second out of what is probably a much smaller group. They've got half the Jedi Order before severe losses during the Mandalorian War. Then you have Bandon, out of half the Order that was decimated by the Mandalorian War.

Now, you know I'm not just shitting you, Glentract. Obi-Wan IS my favorite Jedi of all time. Easily my favorite character in the series. But Bandon simply outclasses him. Bandon's station and reputation imply a far better rep than Obi-Wan had, for sure.

I Bandon will probably win, but Obi-wan isn't getting nearly enough credit. Assuming that Obi-wan does go down, Bandon will be very sore the next morning.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
As a fetus, there is a good chance Obi-wan was about equal to Exar Kun.
Not even close.

It was the entire Order, Glentract. Every Jedi in the galaxy.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

everytime i read that comic, the guy in the top pic, reminds me of sion, sometimes i even think it is actually him.

That's Oss Wilum. He's a total puss.

I know, usually a great amount of wisdom results in being a puss.

Dude... Obi-Wan would be toast.

Janus, the numbers aren't abstract at all. 10000 Jedi for 500,000 planets, assuming the Republic was only half as big as it was during PT times. The group over Yavin must have been a very high percentage of the Order then.

It was all of the order, but where did you get those numbers from? How the hell did you come to those conclusions?

Think of it another way. There's a Sith for every Jedi. How many is Bandon going to reasonably fight? If he cuts down hundreds, or even dozens, it becomes horribly in the Sith's favor as we never really here of the Jedi people who can match Bandon(Vrook, Kavar) fighting any Sith personally.

Every Jedi he fights, we see Bandon lead an attack on a ship with Bastila they don't try to convert the Jedi there they just kill them to get to Bastila, they would logically do this in every fight where they encounter Jedi. Assassins try to kill and or convert Jedi if possible, to lure them over to the Dark Side. They do this outside of fights however, how many people do you know would try to convert people in the middle of a freaking battle?

Bandon was possibly second AFTER severe losses in the Mandalorian War. And that's second out of what is probably a much smaller group. They've got half the Jedi Order before severe losses during the Mandalorian War. Then you have Bandon, out of half the Order that was decimated by the Mandalorian War.

This is unfounded, first of all Bandon did not fight in the Mandelorian wars. It was a safe assumption to make but a wrong one, read his profile on the Kotor website, he joined Revan and Malak as a promosing young puple who didn't like the Jedi Order but was to young to join the Mandelorian wars.

Making it indeed very possible that he was not the most powerful but simply the most talented person in the Sith Empire under Malak, surviving only because the other Sith would not go against Malak. However this does not really weaken his case as he still fought and killed and was still pretty damn powerful. He did fight under Malak for a year and a half, thats 18 months of fighting, and as the apprentice to the Dark Lord you would be the second greatest target in the Sith Empire.


I Bandon will probably win, but Obi-wan isn't getting nearly enough credit. Assuming that Obi-wan does go down, Bandon will be very sore the next morning.

Obi Wan vs Bandon would be a nice fight, but Bandon simply has the experience against lightsaber users, the training with the Dark Side and most likely a great potential. His control over the force isn't weak either, in every in game fight he has used force/life drain on me, its a set skill, so cannon wise he knows at least one technique that Obi Wan has never even seen and probably never heard off. Obi is a bit outclassed here.

Wait... Bandon was on the Endar Spire???

i say darth bandon

Yeah Bandon was on the Ender Spire, he was the person who killed Trask (the guy who leads you around and first teaches you stuff)

Originally posted by Fishy
It was all of the order, but where did you get those numbers from? How the hell did you come to those conclusions?

The 500,000 planets? That's half the size of the PT Republic. It probably was bigger then that for reason's I won't go into right now unless someone wants me to. It just goes to show my point even more if it is bigger.

10,000 Jedi? It's common knowledge, I'm just not sure exactly where it came from, but if necessary, I could find out.

Originally posted by Fishy
Every Jedi he fights, we see Bandon lead an attack on a ship with Bastila they don't try to convert the Jedi there they just kill them to get to Bastila, they would logically do this in every fight where they encounter Jedi. Assassins try to kill and or convert Jedi if possible, to lure them over to the Dark Side. They do this outside of fights however, how many people do you know would try to convert people in the middle of a freaking battle?

I don't really understand what this is saying. What I am saying is that if Bandon killed hundreds of Jedi, say 500, that's a tenth of the entire Order. It would completely unbalance the War. Chances are he never saw that many as there are so many fronts that the Jedi were deployed on.

Originally posted by Fishy
This is unfounded, first of all Bandon did not fight in the Mandelorian wars. It was a safe assumption to make but a wrong one, read his profile on the Kotor website, he joined Revan and Malak as a promosing young puple who didn't like the Jedi Order but was to young to join the Mandelorian wars.

Sorry, I didn't state that very well. Bandon was second in the Order after all of the losses the Order suffered during the Mandalorian War. Basically, Obi-wan was third out of a little less then 10000, where Bandon was second out of a much smaller group, probably around 5000, since it never showed that he was better then the Jedi too, just the Sith.

Originally posted by Fishy
Making it indeed very possible that he was not the most powerful but simply the most talented person in the Sith Empire under Malak, surviving only because the other Sith would not go against Malak. However this does not really weaken his case as he still fought and killed and was still pretty damn powerful. He did fight under Malak for a year and a half, thats 18 months of fighting, and as the apprentice to the Dark Lord you would be the second greatest target in the Sith Empire.

It seems like the Sith would be to focused on fighting other Jedi to take the time to attack each other.

Another big problem is that there were many other people that could have killed him that didn't not try to. Unless you think he can defeat Kreia, Sion, and Nihilus.

Originally posted by Fishy
Obi Wan vs Bandon would be a nice fight, but Bandon simply has the experience against lightsaber users, the training with the Dark Side and most likely a great potential. His control over the force isn't weak either, in every in game fight he has used force/life drain on me, its a set skill, so cannon wise he knows at least one technique that Obi Wan has never even seen and probably never heard off. Obi is a bit outclassed here.

As I have stated, Obi-wan has a huge amount of experince too. Bandon does have an advantage in this department, but not by much.
Obi-wan has defeated many people with greater training in the Darkside before, such as Asajj.
He might have better potential, but then again, so did Anakin. It's really not something we can judge either on.
Obi-wan had never seen force lightning before fighting Dooku in AOTC, but it was something he responded to almost instictively. Obi-wan should be able to respond to it.

Glentract, could you please prove that figure of 10,000 jedi and not rely on "common knowledge"? I've been waiting for that to be verified since last May.

Actually Janus I remember that figure as well, not sure where I heard it, but I am sure that I remember from somewhere

So do I, but I think it needs to be proven before we proceed with it being "common knowledge". I've personally never seen it in print.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Honestly? Bandon is a Sith Lord. He uses his lightsaber to deadly effect, being undefeated. Obi-Wan has lost to:

Asajj
Dooku
Nearly lost to Anakin
At one point was about equal with Kit Fisto
Darth Maul (technically, he did lose the match, even though he won through a contrived recovery)

There may be more, I've forgotten.

Asajj -- He's never actually lost to her, although he most likely would have in CD had it not been for Fisto's intervention.

Dooku -- Fair enough. Although he had twice Obi-Wan's experience and was vastly more powerful.

Kit Fisto -- Yeah, at one point. This isn't CD Obi-Wan, it's RotS Obi-Wan.

Anakin -- Yet he managed to "WTFpwn" him in the end. He won, fair and square.

Darth Maul -- Again; he won. Granted, it was by a stroke of "luck", but it was by quick-thinking, as well.



Agreed. Although, Glentract does have a point. Many of the elite in Revan and Malak's forces consisted of the "Masterblades", who wielded the Sith Tremor Swords created by Revan. So several of the more skilled Sith used swords.

But, one could only become a Masterblade by surviving ten lightsaber-wielding enemies. And if there were numerous Masterblades, there have to have been many lightsaber-wielding Jedi.



Agreed, but there are exceptions. Malak trying to blast Revan into oblivion would be a good one.



So you think a number of those anonymous somebodies who were killed by droids are superior to Obi-Wan?

And don't forget, just as Bandon is second to only Malak, Obi-Wan is second only to Mace and Yoda.



Actually, other than his "undefeated" and "second to Malak" points, he doesn't have a rep, lol.

If a rep consists of Feat Wars and titles, Obi-Wan outclasses friggin' everybody.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think that Bandon could give Obi-Wan a hell of a time. But being described as having "powerful emotions such as hate and anger raging through him" seems to imply a weakness that Obi-Wan will be able to exploit.

I seriously think it's amusing how everyone uses the word "feat wars" and I created it. I like to think I know what it means. And it means this:

The adopting of an argumentive stance in which one argues unrelated or unsubstantied feats as a means of establishing one's character's personal duelling ability. (i.e. Sidious ruled known space, therefore he can beat any other Sith; or Anakin was the Chosen One, therefore he cannot be beaten.)

Now, that being said, show me how I used "Feat Wars", please. Bandon has only a reputation. And it is from that reputation that I'm infering my answer. Same goes with Marka Ragnos. I haven't seen him swing a blade yet, and all evidence points to his power and ability being IMMENSE. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, struggles in most of his fights. His fighting form is purely defensive, and we've seen it can be broken (Asajj broke it, Dooku easily broke it... Anakin broke it quite a few times. It's not impervious to aggression and fine lightsabering) He is shown to be easily disabled using the force (Dooku) and was considered no challenge at all for the Emperor (As spoken by Yoda). Now, I like Obi-Wan, and he is the original Jedi ninja... but I don't honestly see him defeating a capable Sith Lord who's lifestyle involves hacking up people like Obi-Wan. His record just isn't clean enough.