Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Recently a large Danish newspaper (Jyllandsposten =The Jutland Post) published a series of drawings of the muslim prophet Muhammed.

You can see some of them here http://www.uriasposten.net/index.php?p=2624
and here http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/baggrund/article.php?id=3293352

These satirical drawings was a reaction to the fact, that no Danish artist wanted to illustrate a childrens book about Muhammeds life

According to Islam you may not make images of the prophet - so since Jyllandsposten decided to do so regardless, not only Danish but now also muslims from the rest of the world have reacted with dismay.

This is their perogative, if anyone offended Christian religious symbols or national symbols we'd see dismay and outcries as well.

The newspaper insisted, that the drawings were published as "a reaction to self-censorship, restrictions on freedom of speech, and injustice and murder on critics of islam, such as has happened in Holland."

Now Jyllandsposten is not the most liberal and tolerant of newspapers to say the least. It's full name is Morgenavisen Jyllandsposten (The Morning Paper The Jutland Post), which we often call Morgenfacisten Jyllandspesten (The morning fascist The Jutland Plague).
So their motivations might just as well have been to stir up intolerance between the muslim community in Denmark and "native" Danes.

Things seemed to quiet down during the fall, until a religious party from Pakistan interferred and put out a reward on the heads of the artists.

Now many Middle Eastern countries are boycotting Danish goods, and I am trying to figure out if this is truly a religious or a politically motivated reaction.

The newspaper has NOW apologized...
What are your thoughts on this?

Me? The west has boycotted many countries and regimes in the past over political issues. So Middle Eastern countries are in their right to boycott Danish goods. Should the paper have abstained from insulting muslims in the first place, since it seems to be their whole intend to begin with.
Should the Danish Prime Minister apologize?

Originally posted by The Omega
Recently a large Danish newspaper (Jyllandsposten =The Jutland Post) published a series of drawings of the muslim prophet Muhammed.

You can see some of them here http://www.uriasposten.net/index.php?p=2624
and here http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/baggrund/article.php?id=3293352

These satirical drawings was a reaction to the fact, that no Danish artist wanted to illustrate a childrens book about Muhammeds life

According to Islam you may not make images of the prophet - so since Jyllandsposten decided to do so regardless, not only Danish but now also muslims from the rest of the world have reacted with dismay.

This is their perogative, if anyone offended Christian religious symbols or national symbols we'd see dismay and outcries as well.

The newspaper insisted, that the drawings were published as "a reaction to self-censorship, restrictions on freedom of speech, and injustice and murder on critics of islam, such as has happened in Holland."

Now Jyllandsposten is not the most liberal and tolerant of newspapers to say the least. It's full name is Morgenavisen Jyllandsposten (The Morning Paper The Jutland Post), which we often call Morgenfacisten Jyllandspesten (The morning fascist The Jutland Plague).
So their motivations might just as well have been to stir up intolerance between the muslim community in Denmark and "native" Danes.

Things seemed to quiet down during the fall, until a religious party from Pakistan interferred and put out a reward on the heads of the artists.

Now many Middle Eastern countries are boycotting Danish goods, and I am trying to figure out if this is truly a religious or a politically motivated reaction.

The newspaper has NOW apologized...
What are your thoughts on this?

Me? The west has boycotted many countries and regimes in the past over political issues. So Middle Eastern countries are in their right to boycott Danish goods. Should the paper have abstained from insulting muslims in the first place, since it seems to be their whole intend to begin with.
Should the Danish Prime Minister apologize?

I'm not sure about the intentions of the newspaper, or what they should do now, but I don't really see why the PM should need to apologise for that.

I don't know to be honest mate.

It's very rare to see people actually speak out against Islam - most people/governments/institutions seem to pussy-foot around it.

Islam demands a lot of respect from people these days, thanks to politicak correctness. Even if someone speaks out against suicide bombers, you tend to get branded a racist or intolerant.

I don't think what the paper has done is right, per se. But it's nothing that hasn't been done before in some other way or another and the reaction from the East isn't anything that hasn't been seen in other countries before either.

It's not worth the Prime Minister apologising over in my opinion.

It takes a certain type of retard to get pissed off over a satirical cartoon.

A retard like Tom Cruise.

Originally posted by BackFire
It takes a certain type of retard to get pissed off over a satirical cartoon.

A retard like Tom Cruise.

I am not Muslim and cannot comment. What i know for sure is that people who claim to be christian, do the same charicatures on Jesus himself.

Like the one where he is running on water in the middle of a water polo match, takes the ball to score a goal.

Exactly.

I'm a Christian and I don't find that offensive, and I don't believe Jesus Himself would either. It's a commonly known ability of His and is being used in a non-offensive comical form. It's not rude, nor insulting.

No-one in their right mind owuld take offence at that.

Likewise with this paper - papers take the mick out of everyone all the time - one shouldn't let what the papers say have any bearing on your feelings...

Otherwise we'd have lots of celebrity suicides....

There are satirical pieces against christianity all the time and politics and poverty and race and the point is its satirical humor and everyone is a target

BF>

Well, my point is that I think the uproar and boycott is more politically motivated than religious, you see? Fatah has instigated burning of the Danish Flag in the Palestinian areas (yes, fatah, after loosing the election) and many Middle Eastern regimes seem to be a little uneasy about the strong religious feelings these days.

Maybe this is more a "the final drop"-kind of reaction? I'm sorry to say that the Danish government (backed by the extreme right) has passed legislature here in DK, that makes it impossible for, say, a mentally injured victim of torture who is unable to learn (danish) to obtain Danish citizenship.

These past couple of years seems to me to be a re-make of the Cold War, the USSR has just been replaced by Islam, just as drugs were in the 90's.
There is a lot of racism abound in the west these days and it focuses on muslims. I'll just whisper "Palestine and Israel", and somehow I can understand these reactions... although I think it's kinda not going the right way.

Theres a bit of a difference between jesus scoring a goal in a sport and jesus using his powers to kill people... The insinuation that there god and bombs have a close link is wrong... also the fact that its defying a rule he set.. Not to draw him, If jesus was pictured was a killer, then christians would be annoyed...

While I don't see drawning him as that bad an offence.. They do...
But I do see the offence of drawing him with a bomb..

I think the easiest way to decipher the difference is that had this been published in an American newspaper, it would be a reason for American soldiers to die due to the resentment that Muslim fundamentalists would feel over it.

It's racist, pure and simple

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's racist, pure and simple
What exactly is racist?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What exactly is racist?

Mocking the definitive characteristics of an ethnic or religious group or tarring "them" all with the same brush!

I dont see why a group of people care what others think of their religious figures.. that and they shouldnt really pin the entire fault of the danish people (by boycotting, or however else they're demonstrating).. when the fault really lies on the integrity of the newspaper that printed it.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Mocking the definitive characteristics of an ethnic or religious group or tarring "them" all with the same brush!

To portray a Historical Person or Mythological Figure does hardly qualify as Racist. You are just over sensitive.

I personally ont he one hand don't see anyting wrong with the Cartoon. On the other I can also understand why Muslims feel offended, but they need to accept that not everyone will play by their rules. If they want to boycott Europe that's their perfect right but I don't see how that will change much.

I get pissed at times, because it seems that Christians are allowed to offend Muslims, and get away with it, but God help if a Muslim offended a Christian.

Last year, Muslims were offended by a Christian Pastors rantings about the Muslim religion. This Pastor said that Muslims want to take over the world, they are dangerous and violent, they swap their women around, etc. The Muslims were outraged, as well they should have been, because none of this is true.

They lost their case because the Pastor's words were deemed to be 'Free Speech'.

Imagine if a Muslim offended the Christian religion, it wouldn't be 'Free Speech' then.

its the same situation for Norway and Norwegian after the christian magazine Magasinet printet the drawings.
Now it might be wrong to offend a religion but these extremes reactions that happens are just idiotic.
Now muslims claim all the time that Islam, as a religion, cant be held responsible for the actions of a few extremist who hide behind the religion instead of cause. Well the same goes for this situation, entire nations and its people cant be targeted as victims for the actions of a newspaper.

Originally posted by Makedde
I get pissed at times, because it seems that Christians are allowed to offend Muslims, and get away with it, but God help if a Muslim offended a Christian.

Last year, Muslims were offended by a Christian Pastors rantings about the Muslim religion. This Pastor said that Muslims want to take over the world, they are dangerous and violent, they swap their women around, etc. The Muslims were outraged, as well they should have been, because none of this is true.

They lost their case because the Pastor's words were deemed to be 'Free Speech'.

Imagine if a Muslim offended the Christian religion, it wouldn't be 'Free Speech' then.

It would be though.

here in Norway it is the complete opposite, muslims can rant and piss about christianity and all its faults and how bad those of us that doesnt give a rats ass about religion are, but try to criticise the muslim way and all hell breaks loose with death threats and the likes

The pictures seem to be created to stir up a reaction, which is exactly what it got.

I personally feel both sides have the right to free speech, and express how they feel.

expression through violence and threats?

Originally posted by finti
expression through violence and threats?

No, but the cartoonist knew what he would start with it.
I think both sides don't behave correct and should take a step back but they both have a right to express themself.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, but the cartoonist knew what he would start with it.
I think both sides don't behave correct and should take a step back but they both have a right to express themself.

Yeah. It's about rights and responsibilities. (Jane Austen's unfinished novel.)


Even if you have the justifiable right to do something, it doesn't mean you should do so without giving thought to the repercussions, the feelings of others, courtesy, and so forth.

Great answers and discussion, and I assume the arguments would be the same if the religions and their actions were reversed.

Originally posted by botankus
Great answers and discussion, and I assume the arguments would be the same if the religions and their actions were reversed.

Yes.

On a related topic:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203/ts_alt_afp/europeislammediaus

I find the reactions of certain muslims extreme. However, this one of the reasons why I believe we shouldn't be touching sensitive stuff like Religion and make a mockery of it. Fine, you don't believe in what their faith preaches. So why even criticize it? What do you gain by Angering people? That's the million dollar question.

And I do quite agree with Fred Hiatt in the article:

"If I were faced with something that I know is gonna be offensive to many of our readers, I would think twice about whether the benefit of publication outweighed the offense it might give,"

And this couldn't have come at a worse time. With last year Paris Riots and the recent victory of Hamas...this is just adding wood to fire. These are delicate times for all of us. I think we need to drop the whole current apathy behavior of our times that says "I'll say whatever I want and I don't care who I offend" and be more considerate to others.

If I know my freedom of speech is going to offend others....I'd rather keep it to myself. I don't need controversy on my shoulder. I don't need to anger anyone or any group. And I don't mean to walk on eggs for the rest of my life. What I'm saying is better to think twice before doing something that could cause trouble.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, but the cartoonist knew what he would start with it.
I think both sides don't behave correct and should take a step back but they both have a right to express themself.

No, these people who start riots over a cartoon (for Christ's sake!!!) do not behave correct.

Originally posted by Da preacher
No, these people who start riots over a cartoon (for Christ's sake!!!) do not behave correct.

Actually for Mohammed's sake. Just to be correct.

But no, they both didn't behave correct from a...let's say Schopenauer Moral View.

They should be able to take some negativism against their religion, they ask for it with their idiotic believes.

Same with Christianity for that matter.

Originally posted by Da preacher
They should be able to take some negativism against their religion, they ask for it with their idiotic believes.

Same with Christianity for that matter.
I didn't say that it wasn't legal and allowed what the Cartoonist did. I am jsut saying it wasn't necessary.

I think all religions...IE fairy tales...should be made fun of at every opportunity.

I think open mindedness is a very good achievment of our culture...sad that only so few people have it.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
On a related topic:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203/ts_alt_afp/europeislammediaus

I find the reactions of certain muslims extreme. However, this one of the reasons why I believe we shouldn't be touching sensitive stuff like Religion and make a mockery of it. Fine, you don't believe in what their faith preaches. So why even criticize it? What do you gain by Angering people? That's the million dollar question.

And I do quite agree with Fred Hiatt in the article:

"If I were faced with something that I know is gonna be offensive to many of our readers, I would think twice about whether the benefit of publication outweighed the offense it might give,"

And this couldn't have come at a worse time. With last year Paris Riots and the recent victory of Hamas...this is just adding wood to fire. These are delicate times for all of us. I think we need to drop the whole current apathy behavior of our times that says "I'll say whatever I want and I don't care who I offend" and be more considerate to others.

If I know my freedom of speech is going to offend others....I'd rather keep it to myself. I don't need controversy on my shoulder. I don't need to anger anyone or any group. And I don't mean to walk on eggs for the rest of my life. What I'm saying is better to think twice before doing something that could cause trouble.

This is true but the issue has moved beyond that now. The reason the cartoons are being re-printed by papers across Europe is not to offend but to demonstrate.

The point is this. People CAN print offensive stuff, and it is very right that they are allowed to do so. Now, doing so might be juvenile and insensitive and even idiotic... but it IS allowed.

When someone does something idiotic and thoughtless... then protest, fine. Complain, fine. But what is actually happening here are threats of violence and death. This is showing the unpleasantness of the extreme side of Islam once more. And if they weren;t making such clearly immoral threats, the damn things would mnever have been printed outside of that first paper.

The other papers are making a huge commitment to freedom of expression, saying- yeah, these cartoons might be dumb. But they CAN be printed- and you sure as hell don't have the right to make threats just because they are.

Thoughtless as the original paper was, the pendulum of who this shows up as bad has now moved to the extremists.

On a personal note, I don't think it WAS that stupid. Christ is parodied all the damn time. There are people out there who get extremely offended because we don't force women to not go to school and to cover themselves up; doesn't mean we should never do it for fear of offence. Far closer to home, there are those very strongly and deeply offedned by equal rights for homosexuals on religious reasons. Are we going to not express that now?

It's such a trivial damn thing- BF is right, only idiots would get het up about it. That it is part of their religion does not excuse a damn thing as far as I am concerned; Belief systems are legitimate targets to mock, from Democracy to Marxism to Hinduism to ANYTHING. They are not like race (and calling anything to do with a belief system racism is a terrible perversion of that word), they are a matter of what you think in your head, not what you are. Any such thing can be attacked. One of the ways of showing clear strength is to persist despite mockery, after all.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
I think all religions...IE fairy tales...should be made fun of at every opportunity.


Agreed.

while i do believe that caricatures of Mohammed go beyond the bounds of good taste they nonetheless can be printed, however Mohammed with his turban in the shape of a bobmb does say something about the current way that Islam is going these days. I dont think Mohammed intended to have muslims strapping themselves with bombs to go and blow themselves up in a crowded marketplace with women, children, and men who have no politics and are far removed from the infighting between countries like Palestine and Israel, however the moslems decide that suicide bombing is the only way to prove a point and to make it. The furor ove a caetoon is diplaced as they cannot see that these bombings cause as much if not more scorn against Islam than a drawing....if moslems find that much offensiveness in these kinds of cartoons maybe they should take a step back and try to police and rein in these people that give the religion a bad name. however reining in fundamentalists should be done by people in every religion and maybe cartoons and dark remarks will cease to be a reality and we can move on to other things that should be focussed on in this world....but hey, what do i know?

Indeed ,they can print stuff like this cartoon, Ush. To a certain level this is freedom of the press. However, my main point is the timing of this printing. Is it such a good idea to make something like this during a time in which the middle east and the Western relations aren't very good? And as mention before with the currents issues both sides are facing is this a necessary thing?

As much as I love bad humor and terrible jokes. I know when and where to make such comedy. It doesn't take a big brain to figure that this may not be a good time. Like for example would it had been funny to make a satire of Hurricane Catrina while many people in N.O. were starving and dying? Certainly not. There is a proper time to make such commentaries. Also let us not overlook the fact the guy who started this whole thing is probably gaining more free adverstising for himself and his newspaper. Which to me is what he really wanted.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Indeed ,they can print stuff like this cartoon, Ush. To a certain level this is freedom of the press. However, my main point is the timing of this printing. Is it such a good idea to make something like this during a time in which the middle east and the Western relations aren't very good? And as mention before with the currents issues both sides are facing is this a necessary thing?

As much as I love bad humor and terrible jokes. I know when and where to make such comedy. It doesn't take a big brain to figure that this may not be a good time. Like for example would it had been funny to make a satire of Hurricane Catrina while many people in N.O. were starving and dying? Certainly not. There is a proper time to make such commentaries. Also let us not overlook the fact the guy who started this whole thing is probably gaining more free adverstising for himself and his newspaper. Which to me is what he really wanted.

agreed

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Indeed ,they can print stuff like this cartoon, Ush. To a certain level this is freedom of the press. However, my main point is the timing of this printing. Is it such a good idea to make something like this during a time in which the middle east and the Western relations aren't very good? And as mention before with the currents issues both sides are facing is this a necessary thing?

As much as I love bad humor and terrible jokes. I know when and where to make such comedy. It doesn't take a big brain to figure that this may not be a good time. Like for example would it had been funny to make a satire of Hurricane Catrina while many people in N.O. were starving and dying? Certainly not. There is a proper time to make such commentaries. Also let us not overlook the fact the guy who started this whole thing is probably gaining more free adverstising for himself and his newspaper. Which to me is what he really wanted.


And when pray tell IS a good time for something like this? Are relations between the Islamic world and the West ever really good? Muslims need to realize their religion doesn't rule us. I'm willing to bet there's some type of terrorist attack in Denmark within six months. Should expressions like this cartoon stop? Absolutely not!

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
And when pray tell IS a good time for something like this?

How about when relationships improve? That would be a good time I would say. Why, are you on rush to make these cartoons or something?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
How about when relationships improve? That would be a good time I would say. Why, are you on rush to make these cartoons or something?


I seriously doubt relations with the Islamic world will ever improve. Study history. There has always been conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. Just look at the reaction a stupid cartoon is causing. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims rioting. That's not just a few extremeists. And all over what?

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Study history.

Good idea! Let's look at history. Shall we start with the 11th and 13th Century crusades agaisn't the muslims? Or shall we look at our Government support for Israel in the past. And our current state with the middle east with the war? Yeah, let's anger the muslims with funny cartoons. Whoah!

Let me clarify, the behavior of the extremist is NOT excusable. What they're doing is wrong. However, with the current status between Western nations and the Middle East is there a need for all of this?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Good idea! Let's look at history. Shall we start with the 11th and 13th Century crusades agaisn't the muslims? Or shall we look at our Government support for Israel in the past. And our current state with the middle east with the war? Yeah, let's anger the muslims with funny cartoons. Whoah!

Let me clarify, the behavior of the extremist is NOT excusable. What they're doing is wrong. However, with the current status between Western nations and the Middle East is there a need for all of this?

I'm not saying the West is blameless by any stretch of the imagination. Everyone loves to harp about the crusades but what about Islamic raiders in the 700s and 800s who laid seige to Constantinople and extorted money to maintain the peace.

And as for the current situation with Israel...I fail to see why the entire Islamic world is up in arms over a tiny piece of land in Palestine. Less than .01% of the worlds Muslims are Palestinian and fewer than 10% are even Arabs. Yet the entire Islamic world would kill Israel in an instant if they could. Maybe because this is something governments and Religious leaders in Islamic countries can galvanize their populations with against the West to control them better?

I'm all for less interference in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries and I also support a palestinian state but neither is likely given that Moneyed interests in the US support Israel which doesn't want an Independant Palestinian state. Also, given the Corporate Oil giants influence on US politics means we won't be leaving The Middle East any time soon.

But this begs why such uproar over a stupid cartoon. Just look at some Muslims reaction to anyone who "insults" their religion. There was that Dutch filmmaker who was murdered just because he made a documentary about the place and treatment of women in Islamic countries.

Still, I don't think we should stop drawing cartoons, even offensive ones, just because members of some religion don't like it or we sacrifice freedoms that were hard won and are always under threat. This is our country. The danes have their country. Who are people in far away lands to tell either us or the Danes what, or what not, do draw? Think about it.

Frankly, I think this is absolutely the time, yes. To be cowed by their threats into silence is an abrogation of our freedoms. If people want to make such cartoons, then they should feel free to do so now as much as at any other time.

And likewise, everyone else should feel free to criticise them for it, much as would be done with the Katrina example above. But this isn't criticism- it is outright assault. It is an attempt to force silence, to muzzle; this goes far beyond simply declaring something inappropriate.

Outside the Danish embassy in London yesterday, placards read "Slay those who insult Islam" and "Behead the one who insults the prophet."

Faced with this sort of idiocy, I lose any sympathy I might have had for offence. I am actually very proud of Western society that in the face of that, the cartoons were re-printed (which, I will mention again, was only done BECAUSE of the extreme reaction, as a counter-thrust against it).

And I am sure plenty of Muslims will point out that such banners do not reflect the feelings of the majority. Well, fine, but nor did the cartoons represent the mainstram view of the Western world, so the fact there are death threats now against ANY Scandinavian in the Middle East, that the threatened boycott would hurt all Danish citizens and the attempts now to silence freedom of speech would detract from the rights of every person on the planet, I think it should be pointed out that targetting too widely is a bigger problem from Islam than against it.

And they let themselves be antagonised, and they burnt the Danish embassy.

The idea behind the caricatures was to spread the infamous 'Muslim = Terrorist' hearsay. Of course only the ignorant man on the street falls for that.

Not an insult to Muslims, but a provocation to generate these kind of violent protests and threatening placards.

Yes, at times if you provoke someone, you may get involved in a scuffle. Why run the risk of getting into a fight when you know that antagonising someone may kick-start it ?

I guess this means no Muhammed on South Park...

Originally posted by The Omega
Recently a large Danish newspaper (Jyllandsposten =The Jutland Post) published a series of drawings of the muslim prophet Muhammed.

You can see some of them here http://www.uriasposten.net/index.php?p=2624
and here http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/baggrund/article.php?id=3293352

These satirical drawings was a reaction to the fact, that no Danish artist wanted to illustrate a childrens book about Muhammeds life

According to Islam you may not make images of the prophet - so since Jyllandsposten decided to do so regardless, not only Danish but now also muslims from the rest of the world have reacted with dismay.

This is their perogative, if anyone offended Christian religious symbols or national symbols we'd see dismay and outcries as well.

The newspaper insisted, that the drawings were published as "a reaction to self-censorship, restrictions on freedom of speech, and injustice and murder on critics of islam, such as has happened in Holland."

Now Jyllandsposten is not the most liberal and tolerant of newspapers to say the least. It's full name is Morgenavisen Jyllandsposten (The Morning Paper The Jutland Post), which we often call Morgenfacisten Jyllandspesten (The morning fascist The Jutland Plague).
So their motivations might just as well have been to stir up intolerance between the muslim community in Denmark and "native" Danes.

Things seemed to quiet down during the fall, until a religious party from Pakistan interferred and put out a reward on the heads of the artists.

Now many Middle Eastern countries are boycotting Danish goods, and I am trying to figure out if this is truly a religious or a politically motivated reaction.

The newspaper has NOW apologized...
What are your thoughts on this?

Me? The west has boycotted many countries and regimes in the past over political issues. So Middle Eastern countries are in their right to boycott Danish goods. Should the paper have abstained from insulting muslims in the first place, since it seems to be their whole intend to begin with.
Should the Danish Prime Minister apologize?

Muslims going crazy and killing people over the smallest, dumbest shit? Unheard of!!

Originally posted by GCG
Yes, at times if you provoke someone, you may get involved in a scuffle. Why run the risk of getting into a fight when you know that antagonising someone may kick-start it ? A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.

I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.

Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.

I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.

They can't.

If the police made any move to break up the protest, more violent protests would have been provoked.

Protesters need to shut the **** up and go get laid or something.

Originally posted by BackFire
Protesters need to shut the **** up and go get laid or something.

the newspapers should have thought twice about before printing them cause there aint noo need to provoke someones faith. Its all fine with freedom of speech and freedom of the press but not to insult. Hell who would liked to see a mockery of something dare to them? no one.
The way of the protest over this though is beyond idiotic, its all good with a protest to let one know"hey we didnt care for that stuff you insulted us with it"
The things happening know can lead to a tight and explosive situation within the countries that printed the drawings too. People of muslim faith can be targeted just because their muslims, hell as of my country they might be 3 rd generation immigrants and stick with the faith of their forefathers and be hated for it just because of the faith they choose.

One cant target entire nation due to the printing of some drawings, but one cant target all faithful of a religion because of a bunch take it too far either....
Someone needs to go in and calm down the masses, dialogue must be set up between leaders of the muslim communities and the countries targeted by this rage.
Hell one of my neighbours is a muslim and he was provoked and insulted by the drawings, and I understand why he was it too, but he is just as provoked and insulted by the reaction by muslims too cause they burt his flag(he is a norwegian 3rd generation immigrant, Norwegian as good as any) So he kind of lost out on it twice, disgrace disrespect of his religion, then the same disgrace and disrespect to his countrys flag.....talk about beeing between the anvil and the sledgehammer.............



by the way killer sig you got there Raz

Well. Now The Danish embassy in Syria was burnt to the ground (along with the Swedish and Norwegian!!!?), and now the embassy in Lebanon is suffering the same fate.
This, however, is not a reaction to the drawings as such, but rumours that circulated saying that Danes would burn the Koran yesterday. Which no one did, although now some extreme right-wing nationalists just might go ahead and do JUST that.

WrathfulDwarf has a point here which I think is important to keep in mind. The West has antagonized arab (aka muslim) countries for ceturies. An argument that Palestine is a tiny peace of land is absurd. The point is, that Israel has more Un-resolutions against it than Iraq/Hussein ever had, and that Israel is practicing segregation and racism against arabs on a lareg scale. There were no Afghans on the planes on 9/11, yet Afghanistan was attacked, the Taliban (whom the West supported when the USSR invaded Afghanistan years ago) were attacked. Then Iraq and the Hussein-regime were attacked, after the West support him during the Iran-Iraq war.
It's got NOTHINg to do with religion - it's got everything to do with politics and control over certain areas (probably oil) in the world.
The danish government supports the wars in the Middle-east, so I suppose Denmark cannot claim to be an innocent victim. I think the reactions to these drawings is just "the final drop".
Yes, I think that in a secular state a newspaper has the right to print what it wants (under responsibility), the freedom of speech is important. That some nations react as they do is their perogative. Is it any better that Bush calls Iraq "evil"?

That's nonsense. The Taliban would have been attacked regardless of their religion- America was after the organisers, and they were in Afghanistan.

There is no point trying to rationalise the hate that Muslim extremists have for the West- that is based on nothing other than skewed Religious beliefs, and so this very much IS about religion.

Let's be absolutely clear- if you do not think the ones committing the bigger wrong in this area are the ones making the death threats and burning embassies to the ground, then you clearly have nomcommon sense or idea of proportion.

It's most certainly bugger all to do with Iraq, which was not a Muslim state when attacked.

Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.

I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.

Yes all hate speak should be stopped!!!!!!!

There have already been 3 embassys burned for this fact, while there is as we now speak this cartoon hanging in the Cartoon festival in Knokke in Belgium.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/sda/lowres/sdan203l.jpg

Originally posted by Raz
A provocation should lead to criticism, protests, or even boycotts. But the placards that were being waved around in London went too far, and should have been stopped.

I think they crossed the line between protests and inciting violence. I'm shocked that the police didn't do anything about it.

If they did it would have been haieled as anti-islamic action!

Originally posted by KidRock
Muslims going crazy and killing people over the smallest, dumbest shit? Unheard of!!

Your intellectual poverty is noted, and mocked.

Its ridiculous that they're boycotting and threatening entire countries over something caused by a few individuals.

Originally posted by Tex
Its ridiculous that they're boycotting and threatening entire countries over something caused by a few individuals.

I don't think you are a fool, but what's my opinion compared to that of thousands of muslems. It's the principle! Get it?

Originally posted by Tex
Its ridiculous that they're boycotting and threatening entire countries over something caused by a few individuals.

Its perfectly in place ; ridicule started it and it has strived.

Originally posted by GCG
Its perfectly in place ; ridicule started it and it has strived.

Thjats about it! Well said!

The muslims who are protesting may do so as much as they like. The muslims who are making death threats, burning Danish and Norwegian embassies and flags of many western countries are just shooting themselves in the foot.

If you're going to protest against cartoons of Muhammed with a bomb-shaped turban, don't do it by threatening to blow yourselves up, thus proving the point!!! Recently, the "Islamic Army" made a statement that any Danish/Norwegian captured in Iraq would be cut into pieces...again they only demonize themselves by resorting to violence.

I'm a pretty tolerant man myself, but I don't find it hard to understand that these actions are like fuel on a fire to many people about their views upon Islam.

I agree wholeheartedly (sp?) with you Ushgurak, the newspaper didn't commit to any faults in my view. If you can't tolerate to be critisized, you're fitting the stereotypical version of a muslim. I'm not saying you have to agree though, but that doesn't justify violent actions.

I think the re-printing of these articles are important, the muslim countries shouldn't be allowed to dictate what we print, and neither should any other religion/country etc. Freedom of speach must not be opressed by violence, that's for sure!

Originally posted by GCG
I am not Muslim and cannot comment. What i know for sure is that people who claim to be christian, do the same charicatures on Jesus himself.

Like the one where he is running on water in the middle of a water polo match, takes the ball to score a goal.
Yeah, or those "Jesus Saves! And takes half damage" things. Funniness .

I saw about the Muslims on last nights news, how they bombed the buildings etc. They have a right to be offended.

What happens when someone makes fun of the good Lord Jesus Christ? I'll bet that the Christians won't care about this, but heaven help when someone mocks their religion...

Who was it that drew these pictures, anyway?

The drawings came about because of a request of drawings of muhammed for educational stuff, religion classes and so on. Guess some artist thought satire was the best way to portray muhammed. So you can say people were invited to draw muhammed.

ehhh what?

I *think* she means "What happens when someone makes fun of the good Lord Jesus Christ? I'll bet that Christians won't care about muslims burning these country's embassies, but heaven help when someone mocks the Christian religion."

But still even if an Israeli newspaper runs a funny comic of Jesus I very much doubt Christians will be burning Muslim countries' embassies.

now why would they burn embassies of muslim countries because of something done by an Israeli (jewish) newspaper, I think Israeli embassies would be the one targeted

these embassies are embassies of christian countries. If you take a closer look at the Danish and Norwegian flag you will see they consist of a cross, so by burning those flags they actually burn the christian symbol over all christian symbols the cross. No i bet that slipped the mind of the ones screaming about insulting ones religion

Here comes the inevitable... Palestine is part of Israel.

EDIT: just realized I meant to say Israel and other countries with large population of muslims. Sorry.

still differ between them though

In this instance, you can't compare Islam to the whole of Christianity. Some Christian sects, such as Protestants, would take just as much offense to a cartoon of Jesus or God as Muslims do of Muhammed. They may take a different course of action, but it the level of offense is the same.

Yes, we do have the right to freedom of speech, however we also have a right to be treated with respect. Regardless of the consequences, the newspaper was wrong to publish those cartoons. It was intentionally disrespectful and provoking, and it had to be obvious that nothing good was going to be gained by it.

People should not argue about, laugh at or insult things they do not understand. This goes for both sides - a lot of Westerners do not understand the depth and complexity of the Muslim faith, and a lot of Muslims are so deeply embedded in their religion they can't understand how others can make fun of it so easily.

If people would just open their minds to more information and understanding, a lot of conflict would be avoided.

protestants a christian sect?????????? oh man this sound like some catholic swada
Denmark and Norway are protestant countries and they have cartoons of god and jesus everyday in the papers, no protests about it there


yet the muslim have no problem burning flag consisting of christian symbols, so much for their so called alleged respect of other religions as they claim are so dear to their religious practise

Originally posted by gobstopper
In this instance, you can't compare Islam to the whole of Christianity. Some Christian sects, such as Protestants, would take just as much offense to a cartoon of Jesus or God as Muslims do of Muhammed. They may take a different course of action, but it the level of offense is the same.

Yes, we do have the right to freedom of speech, however we also have a right to be treated with respect. Regardless of the consequences, the newspaper was wrong to publish those cartoons. It was intentionally disrespectful and provoking, and it had to be obvious that nothing good was going to be gained by it.

People should not argue about, laugh at or insult things they do not understand. This goes for both sides - a lot of Westerners do not understand the depth and complexity of the Muslim faith, and a lot of Muslims are so deeply embedded in their religion they can't understand how others can make fun of it so easily.

If people would just open their minds to more information and understanding, a lot of conflict would be avoided.

It might not have been very nice but the point is that the paper still had the right to do it, and the actions of Islamic fundamentalists in this matter massively dwarves anything the paper did in terms of 'wrong'.

Meanwhile, first of all, I doubt Christians would be AS offended, seeing as this kind of thing happens in South Park all the time and whilst it has caused outrage, it has not been anywhere near as bad. This ties into Islam's problem with Idolatry, and I say 'problem'; because treating idolatry as a crime is pretty insane by any rational standard; if you want to make odd rules about yourself, fine, but you have no business pushing such silly ideas on others, backed by threats of violence.

Secondly, the course of action has pretty much become the subject here, in how totally inappropriate it was. So by saying Christians would take a different course of action, you render that example irrelevant.

No-one is saying that they don't have the right to be offended or to protest; as part of freedom of speech, that right is celebreated (and in turn, people would have the right to see therir protest as silly, and so on). It's the WAY that it is being protested that hasd brought the criticism, and made this an issue not about mocking a religion, but of fundamental western freedoms under attack in the form of violent threats by zealots. It didn't have tpo be about that, but the extremists have made it that way.

I'm glad it was done, and frankly I do think good will come of this- it has exposed something that needed exposing.

Ummm yes, it is. As is Catholicism, Presbyterian, Greek Orthodox , Mormanism and many others. There are a lot of different sects and denominations of Christianity, but thank you for proving my point about conflict being born out of ignorance.



I said it went both ways. I am not excusing the Muslim extremists (note my use of the word 'extremists', I do not lump all Muslims together), I am just saying that I think the first newspaper to print the cartoons was wrong to do so, and it was they who sparked the latest violence.



Some Christians have practically the same stance on idolatry as Muslims, and so it stands to reason that some Christians would be just as offended, even if they do express it differently.



Not at all. I was replying to the original post, in which the author asked if the newspaper cartoons were insults to Muslims. Seeing as it was the cartoons that sparked the entire thing, they are still very much the subject.



I am in no way arguing against that, in fact I completely agree. Both sides are in the wrong, I'm only asking that people look at both sides, understand the reasoning behind the actions of both sides, and have informed opinions.

you are listing groups that are far to large to be called sects. Oh Im aware of sects existing within christianity, but usually and ordinary use of sects in those cases doesnt refer to large groups as those you listed.

it went from boycott of Danish products to violence and those who erupted into violence and destruction is groups that benefit from the attention that act of behaviour gets

From dictionary.com:


Sounds like Protestantism/Catholicism/all distinctly separate groups within Christianity to me.



I'm not disputing that at all. Just don't forget that it was the publishing of insulting and disrespectful cartoons that resulted in boycotts, that went to violence.



Benefitting? From the further prejudice they are heaping on themselves? Although I do suppose the newspaper's benefitting from all the publicity it's getting.

sounds like groups formed within the catholics and protestants etc to me

you have to look at who and where they rumble the most.
In Syria they wants to get focus away from the allegation of the regim had something to do with the assasination of the Lebanese primeminister.
The palestinian are a bit divided after the election they need something that can focus on a collective stand

The newspaper printed thes cartoons 30 september last year, the escelation of this really started when an Iman in denmark showed a picture of muhammed with a pigs face on BBC, that picture was not among those printed in the newspaper.
The original reason behind these cartoons was that the newspaper invited artists to draw picture of muhammed as illustration used in a new book for educational purposes. All they got in was sartirical ones

p

Sects of sects, sure, why not? It makes no difference, technically Catholics and Protestants are still sects of the larger group of Christianity.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know enough about it to properly comment. I realise the situation is extremely complax on both sides, the main point I wanted to make was that the paper chose to publish the cartoons, and in my view this was an insulting, disrespectful and unnecessary thing to do.

Jerusalem Post prints the cartoon in today`s paper

That ought to stir things up I guess, but Israel is already hated by so many there, don't know if it will make much of a difference.

Isn't Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodox etc called "movements" within christianity, certainly sounds better.

I can't understand anyone defending the violence!! It doesn't matter how large the cultural difference etc is, NOBODY should start making death threats, burning embassies etc because of a cartoon. It's absolutely insane. I hope our goverment make a stand here...

Originally posted by Makedde
I saw about the Muslims on last nights news, how they bombed the buildings etc. They have a right to be offended.



Nobody bombed any buildings. Please dont start peppering a thread with inaccuracies.

I have a feeling that this is no longer about the cartoon. This is turning into a clash of cultures. Quite frankly is time for someone to take resposibility for their actions. And it should from both sides. But given the fact that it all started with a cartoon from newspaper. They should release an official apology. In which they should explain why they did it in the first place. And that they meant no harm with doing it. So, are they doing it? Or are they just a bunch jerk clowns that get their kicks by pissing off people? and most likely laughing at the mayhem they helped create?

Very well said WD.

I followed the Danish Foreign Minister on his official aoplogy last night and he also said that it was not right to target a whole country for the blatant desregard commited by a few.

He also said that an inquiry is being held to establish if the cartoons and caricatures where blasphemic, to which Denmark has a law that was last used in 1932 (or some time back there).

In That case it would be possible to take the responsables to court under blasphemy charges.

Yeah, I definately thnk that it has nothing to do w/ the cartoon. Its stupid though, they dont want anybody to make fun of their prophet and yet they have a bunch of anti semetic cartoons themselves.

they did say why when they posted the cartoons. It was an invite for artist to draw muhammed for a new book ment for religious education, they ment no harm by it. They just showed the few examples they got

These idiots have attacked European territory an have burned flags with crosses on them.

And above all an Irani newspaper posted an article which says the Holocaust never happened.

And they're saying they're insulted by a cartoon?

there has been a lot of things that insult christianity, like the jerry springer opera..and other stuff- but they didnt go threatening others.

they are angry for being called violence of something..but they didnt really help their cause...

Originally posted by Da preacher
These idiots have attacked European territory an have burned flags with crosses on them.

And above all an Irani newspaper posted an article which says the Holocaust never happened.

And they're saying they're insulted by a cartoon?
how can they really say that didnt happen..really

Originally posted by Da preacher
And they're saying they're insulted by a cartoon?

I am certain most Muslims were indeed insulted,. It was a pretty offensive cartoon afterall.

And what do you mean "they" is it "us" and "them" now? How can you generalize in such a stupid manner anyways?

Originally posted by joeykangaroo
how can they really say that didnt happen..really I won't go into that cause it obviously did happen, but there are studie implying that there is something wrong withwhat we know about the Holocaust.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I won't go into that cause it obviously did happen, but there are studie implying that there is something wrong withwhat we know about the Holocaust. i dont see how though

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am certain most Muslims were indeed insulted,. It was a pretty offensive cartoon afterall.

And what do you mean "they" is it "us" and "them" now? How can you generalize in such a stupid manner anyways?

They have burned embassys of the EU and burned flags with the cross on it. Allthough I don't believe in god it's still a symbol of western society.

It's a declaration of war as a matter of fact.

Originally posted by joeykangaroo
i dont see how though

I think the theory is that for four million humans to eb killed the COncentration camps weren't fit. I don't know if it is true, but either way it was a horrible atrocity.

Originally posted by Da preacher
They have burned embassys of the EU and burned flags with the cross on it. Allthough I don't believe in god it's still a symbol of western society.

It's a declaration of war as a matter of fact.

They? Who is this ****ing "they" you are refering to?

These extremists!

Originally posted by Da preacher
These extremists!

Ahh yes...so the 200 extremists that did that (high estimation) ...hmmm cool I see...yes, an act pof war, those are not the only people insulted by the cartoons though. Ever thought about that?

Their religion kind of asks for it. Any religion for that matter.

Originally posted by Da preacher
Their religion kind of asks for it. Any religion for that matter.

Bullshit! Many Muslims are jsut like "us". They feel insulted because something very important to them was made fun of, and that is perfectly understandable...that the fundamentalists did these things is horrible, but such statements as your first doesn't really help either.

Originally posted by finti
they did say why when they posted the cartoons. It was an invite for artist to draw muhammed for a new book ment for religious education, they ment no harm by it. They just showed the few examples they got

Understand now....I missed your earlier post:

Originally posted by finti
The drawings came about because of a request of drawings of muhammed for educational stuff, religion classes and so on. Guess some artist thought satire was the best way to portray muhammed.


As for the following post.



If it will make you feel better....they've burned many more U.S flags in the past than European flags.

And I agree with Bardock42...this whole "us" and "them" is going to lead to who's the good guys and who's the bad guys. And I don't feel that is necessary.

Two words....Shoot Them!

The daily mail published lots of anti-jewish cartoons on sunday which can be found originating in Islamic papers!

They included PM Sharon hacking children to death with a swastika axe. Ex Israeli PM Ehud Bharak dressed up as Hitler and the Pope talking with a jewish devil.

I don't remember an army of angry Catholics burning Palestinian flags...

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
The daily mail published lots of anti-jewish cartoons on sunday which can be found originating in Islamic papers!

They included PM Sharon hacking children to death with a swastika axe. Ex Israeli PM Ehud Bharak dressed up as Hitler and the Pope talking with a jewish devil.

I don't remember an army of angry Catholics burning Palestinian flags...

There we go again ; another generalising post !

What is acceptable to us, may not be the obviously accepted by default around the globe. The right to give offense (by freedom of speech) through cartoon or caricature, is not an absolute right. As a rule it should be used responsably NOT gratuitously.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
I'm not saying the West is blameless by any stretch of the imagination. Everyone loves to harp about the crusades but what about Islamic raiders in the 700s and 800s who laid seige to Constantinople and extorted money to maintain the peace.

And as for the current situation with Israel...I fail to see why the entire Islamic world is up in arms over a tiny piece of land in Palestine. Less than .01% of the worlds Muslims are Palestinian and fewer than 10% are even Arabs. Yet the entire Islamic world would kill Israel in an instant if they could. Maybe because this is something governments and Religious leaders in Islamic countries can galvanize their populations with against the West to control them better?

I'm all for less interference in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries and I also support a palestinian state but neither is likely given that Moneyed interests in the US support Israel which doesn't want an Independant Palestinian state. Also, given the Corporate Oil giants influence on US politics means we won't be leaving The Middle East any time soon.

But this begs why such uproar over a stupid cartoon. Just look at some Muslims reaction to anyone who "insults" their religion. There was that Dutch filmmaker who was murdered just because he made a documentary about the place and treatment of women in Islamic countries.

Still, I don't think we should stop drawing cartoons, even offensive ones, just because members of some religion don't like it or we sacrifice freedoms that were hard won and are always under threat. This is our country. The danes have their country. Who are people in far away lands to tell either us or the Danes what, or what not, do draw? Think about it.

I think your missing the point, or maybe not. But I think he is just trying to tell you it's good to be a little sensitive toward Muslims right now. There already are tensions , big ones, between them and western cultures. In the name of trying to make relations with them a little better why not not print potentially inciting material. No body is telling you you cant draw pictures of Mohammad, or whoever, that depict him(her) in a "blasphemous" way. But use some sense and don't go printing them in a newspaper for everyone to see. That action will undoubtedly provoke a reaction and to say a reaction shouldn't happen is being just plain, well, ignorant. This is way the world is don't get trapped inside a personal bubble where you may believe everything is or should be "a certain way."
Anyway, it's been pointed out the paper that printed the cartoons to begin with might have done so with a political agenda not neccesarily because the artist was simply excercising his or her freedoms.

I'd also like to point out I'm not supporting these ridiculous attacks and hate filled protests that are going on because of these cartoons. I beleieve some of these Muslims are really overreacting and anyone who is attacked by these zealots shouldn't be afraid to fight back if they are in danger.

Originally posted by Da preacher
Their religion kind of asks for it.

I won't ask how old you are, you are probably only 13, to say something like this.

Muslims cant be trusted

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
Two words....Shoot Them!

Yeah, that's definately the solution. You are really clever!

Thanks. lol

again*sigh* The newspaper invited artist to draw muhammed for a religion book for children, they didnt get too many entries so they showed them all as to was there no serious artist who would make a drawing of muhammed so that kids could relate to the story with more than the words.
No political agenda, no harm was intended it was simply to show that no serious drawings came of this

Man i wish a big ass UFO would come down here!! they don't even have to help us just roll down the damn window and say:

"hey morons!! theres no God/Allah/whatever!!!we know how it all started!! your way off"!!!
then these fools would HAVE to stop with their nonsense!!! and we can all have a good laugh about all the blood spilt 4 religion and live happily ever after

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Man i wish a big ass UFO would come down here!! they don't even have to help us just roll down the damn window and say:

"hey morons!! theres no God/Allah/whatever!!!we know how it all started!! your way off"!!!
then these fools would HAVE to stop with their nonsense!!! and we can all have a good laugh about all the blood spilt 4 religion and live happily ever after Yeah that would be awesome, or a big ass UFO comes down and tells us "Damn you idiots, there is a God, and his name is Allah, we met him yesterday!", then all the stupidass people would need to start respecting the Islam and we could all live happily everafter.

I like my version better!! besides i didn't read anything in the bible about God creating another planet!! i'm quite sure the Muslim version doesn't either! but they didn't make me read that at school so i don't know

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
I like my version better!! besides i didn't read anything in the bible about God creating another planet!! i'm quite sure the Muslim version doesn't either! but they didn't make me read that at school so i don't know

Well but maybe the Koran is just what god wants us to believe....a possibility.

Yeah thats as plausable as the next religious theory i guess.

Koran!!! thats the word i was looking for

Originally posted by Makedde
I won't ask how old you are, you are probably only 13, to say something like this.

Bang on!

No, I'm 14

if people have so much faith in their religion, they would not care what people thought about it and continue to worship their god as normal. but no, these extremem muslims have to go all uppity and burn emmbassys down like some bunch of raving idiots. there is no such thing as free speech. probably never will be. why do i have a feeling that these extremists, who have been known celebrate teh fact that sept 11 happened, are going to be the reason as to why we, as human beings, are going to stop existing.

its liek when you see those people with teh banners sayign how jesus repented us for our sins in teh middle of the street, i dont enjoy listening to it, but hes entitled to say what he wants. so why is it, we cant do the same saying that all religion is a pile of bulls**t? ITS THE 21st CENTURY FFS!!!

It's a strange situation; why has all the fuss erupted now, when the cartoons first appeared in September?

In regards to offense, I believe GCG got it right when he said that different people/ethnic groups find different things acceptable. It is also pertinent to note, that the Koran rejects any depictions of Muhammad because it states this can lead to idolatry.

Also, it is important to recognise the responses from Muslims regardless of whether they are an 'extremist' or not. It seems that all Muslims are offended by the cartoons, but they express their responses in different manners; some choose violence, some choose protest. I'm sure that within this heady mix, there are also some that view it as a perfect opportunity to attack the West - just as some in the West see these outbreaks of violence as an opportunity to condem all of Islam. Who loses most from this episode? All of us.

a delegation of the danish muslim council went to Saudi Arabia to rally support for a protest against the cartoon, lately it have come forth that some of the pictures they showed wasnt printed in the newspaper at all, those pictures were much more offensive than those printed in the paper. There are 3 pictures in question and it seems like the danish muslim council got them as hate mail when the debate about the printing was back in late september early october last year.
This are to be rumors though but the leader of the council wont answer to the direct question why they showed 3 pictures that werent in the paper.


and yes this is a win wn situation for extremist and fundementalists on both sides

**** Muslims

oh yeah what an intelligent thing to say

Originally posted by finti
oh yeah what an intelligent thing to say

you'll have to forgive him, he thinks he's KidRock.

oh my condolences then

Originally posted by K.Diddy
**** Muslims

Originally posted by K.Diddy
Muslims cant be trusted

Your (trolling) posts have no use apart from demeaning and derogating. I suggest you slip into something more comfortable like the OTF.....or even better a Coma.

The majority of muslims condone the emos held in London. However how to deal with those who were glorify terrorism?

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
The majority of muslims condone the emos held in London.

That statement is BULLSHIT.

If anything, it was the opposite. They were offended by the cartoons, but they got more offence by the reactions that ensued from the protestors in London, Syria and in other parts of Islam.

I was asking if that was true, it was a question but I formatted it improperly...oops.

Really ? Can you format it correctly then ?

So The majority of muslims condone the emos held in London?
However how to deal with those who were glorify terrorism?

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
So The majority of muslims condone the emos held in London?
However how to deal with those who were glorify terrorism?

No the majority of Muslims do not condone the demonstrations held in London.


As I said before freedom of speech should be used responsably not gratiosly to incite hatred, violence, mockery or bigotry.

Is there a flaw in this logic ?

Look what happened to Abu Hamza ; he abused his authoroty and has been jailed for 7 years.

Hell, at least it's not the US that screwed the pooch on this one for once.

See http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist1.html

The quran, Islam's holy book, teaches it's believers to kill and violently oppose anyone who does not believe in their religion. Any religion, faith, philosophy or amy movement or individual person who does not accept other people's beliefs and who forces others to believe them, or who believes in killing and violently opposing any other people who believe and think differently about life, should be dispised.

According to the Quran, any Muslim who believes what the Quran teaches, is a violent person who does not respect people with different beliefs.

I am against all real Muslims, or anyone who believes in what the Quran teaches.

Wonderer, that is the most ignorant thing you - or your previous incarnation - have ever posted, and that link is absolutely ridiculous.

Perhaps you are trying to be ironic...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
you - or your previous incarnation - have ever posted

Funny...in more than one way.

The Quran does advocate taking to "arms" against those that are not of their faith...................just like its sexist with a bias twards men as well.

Don't like it oh well its what it is and all documented in the quran.

Originally posted by Wonderer
See http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist1.html

The quran, Islam's holy book, teaches it's believers to kill and violently oppose anyone who does not believe in their religion. Any religion, faith, philosophy or amy movement or individual person who does not accept other people's beliefs and who forces others to believe them, or who believes in killing and violently opposing any other people who believe and think differently about life, should be dispised.

Originally posted by soleran30
The Quran does advocate taking to "arms" against those that are not of their faith

Deuteronomy 13 (old testament)

(1-3) If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us go after other gods"; which you have not known; "and let us serve them," you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

(4-5) You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

(6-11) If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.



LOOK AWAY!!!!! LOOK AWAY!!!!!
preserve your blessed ignorance.

perhaps all hateful bigots who selectively condone/condemn
the same nature of scripture based on the race of those who follow it should be dispised?

let me guess "oh, christians/jews dont actually believe in THAT part of the bible" so they are not morally bound to immoral scripture in the religion they follow....yet muslems are. how convenient

Since this has turned into a religious debate, I will go ahead and move this to the Religion forum.

"let me guess "oh, christians/jews dont actually believe in THAT part of the bible" so they are not morally bound to immoral scripture in the religion they follow....yet muslems are. how convenient"

Yup and last time I checked it would appear as though Muslims have the most militant following and kill people for their faith in an outspoken manner.


__________________

This is a very complicated subject, and not something to pass judgement over easily. After all, hasn't cristian europe been responsible for tremendous slaughters in the past, just because they felt that those who did not think alike were not worthy to live?
On the other hand, I'd like to believe we are in a time in which religion and the faith in ancient (and sometimes ignorant) believes are things that can be viewed with a certain questionably, and that the free mind should be the cause of motivations.
The muslims have the right to react to any offence towards their believes, but the zeal and desperation they lay in their reactions are very over exaggerated, especially since the majority of them hasn't even seen the cartoons that caused this riot, but are merely following extremist ideas without question. The harshest fact is that the real majority of muslims can't care less about some danish guy drawing silly pictures concerning their religion, but they are placed in bad light because a small percentage that choose to stir shit up.

Originally posted by Wonderer
See http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist1.html

The quran, Islam's holy book, teaches it's believers to kill and violently oppose anyone who does not believe in their religion. Any religion, faith, philosophy or amy movement or individual person who does not accept other people's beliefs and who forces others to believe them, or who believes in killing and violently opposing any other people who believe and think differently about life, should be dispised.

According to the Quran, any Muslim who believes what the Quran teaches, is a violent person who does not respect people with different beliefs.

I am against all real Muslims, or anyone who believes in what the Quran teaches.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 was given to Israel in the pre-Church age. It was the law prior to Christianity. Christians are not under that law, that was Israel.

Just to clarify.

Shouldn't it then coincide?

If we were to re-correct this world according to the facts of which part of it is rightfully the property of certain people/nations, the current situation, borders and populations appear to be total nonsense and very unjust (as they actually are).
So do not drag up ancient quotes justifying an blinded way of thinking that should be overruled by common sense and mutual understanding by now.

Originally posted by frau
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 was given to Israel in the pre-Church age. It was the law prior to Christianity. Christians are not under that law, that was Israel.

Just to clarify.

Good job for paying attention. Major props to ya.

Originally posted by frau
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 was given to Israel in the pre-Church age. It was the law prior to Christianity. Christians are not under that law, that was Israel.

Just to clarify.

Who said the law doesn't apply...you are just not judged by it as all according to Scripture. It never said it was done away with....If you're referring to the scripture that says "it was nailed to the tree"...That doesn't mean the law, it means your penalty for your sins.

Doing away with the law and saying it was for the Jews is a new teaching of dispensation. Started in the late 1800's.

The law was given to Israel, but it was completed by Jesus. Christians keep the laws "through" Jesus. Just like we are no longer under obligation to animal sacrifice we are no longer under obligation for the example given in Deut.

The law must be kept 100% or nothing. Either we keep 100% of the laws ourselves (impossible) or we turn to Grace and Jesus fullfills the laws 100%, which grants complete forgiveness to us. Jesus gave two commandments to follow which encompass the whole of the law.

I didn't mean to imply that the covanent with Israel was broken. Dispensationalism is clearly wrong from what I've studied.

Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets Mat. 5:17

Jesus.....

If you complete that sentence it is that the law was fulfilled by Jesus. It was not done away with but it was fulfilled. Christians are no longer under any of the old laws. The Bible is very clear about that. The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was to put an end to them. Like if you are building a house to do away with it would be to destroy it, but to fulfill it would be to finish it and then it is done. To believe that the law is still in effect makes what Jesus did on the cross unnecessary. It is legalism. Working one's way to Heaven which is what Islam is... In Islam Heaven must be earned, in Christianity it is a free gift of Grace. If we were still under the law then Grace would be not the whole of it, but rather an incidental extra insurance policy.

Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other? Are you saying that all the old laws must be kept by a Christian including for instance all the Levitical laws, animal sacrifice, dietary laws etc...?

Originally posted by frau
If you complete that sentence it is that the law was fulfilled by Jesus. It was not done away with but it was fulfilled. Christians are no longer under any of the old laws. The Bible is very clear about that. The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was to put an end to them. Like if you are building a house to do away with it would be to destroy it, but to fulfill it would be to finish it and then it is done. To believe that the law is still in effect makes what Jesus did on the cross unnecessary. It is legalism. Working one's way to Heaven which is what Islam is... In Islam Heaven must be earned, in Christianity it is a free gift of Grace. If we were still under the law then Grace would be not the whole of it, but rather an incidental extra insurance policy.

Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other? Are you saying that all the old laws must be kept by a Christian including for instance all the Levitical laws, animal sacrifice, dietary laws etc...? Well, I wouldn't keep them, but scripture never says they are done away with. In fact Jesus kept them. The law being full filled by Jesus doesn't do away with them. He only took the penalty of death away from breaking them, according to scripture.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, Not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfill."

Heaven and earth has not yet passed away.....A jot or a tittle means even something very minute and small. No changes not even a small one is taken away from the law.