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Anakin Skywalker (ROTS - Pre Suit Vader) Vs Mace Windu (ROTS)

Round 1
-No force powers, only pure saber combat.
-On random battle field.

Round 2
-Force Powers enabled
-Random Battle Field

This is quite hard to determine, to be perfectly honest.

mace would wipe out anakin easily in the first round and at the second round he would need a bit more effort at any case mace wins

Both rounds are easily taken by Mace, who is superior to Anakin in both the force and lightsaber combat.

Meh.... I don't know anymore.


Probably Mace, but...


Ah... Forget it.

both rounds go to mace but in round 2 mace would have a harder time because anakin would use btoh force and lightsabre as a combo but mace would still take him

Originally posted by Lord Septimus
Meh.... I don't know anymore.


Probably Mace, but...


Ah... Forget it.

Huh? No, say it.

I know Anakin is a match for Mace.

WTF? This is stupid.

Mace WTFpwns Anakin in both categories...

That doesn't mean Anakin would have a respectable percentage of winning odds, Mace would still win. Maybe the random terrain is the Supreme Chancellor's Office, where Mace defeated Sidious without killing him and the fight begins right after Anakin comes in.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
That doesn't mean Anakin would have a respectable percentage of winning odds, Mace would still win. Maybe the random terrain is the Supreme Chancellor's Office, where Mace defeated Sidious without killing him and the fight begins right after Anakin comes in.

Yep, 0.0001 %...

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Yep, 0.0001 %...

You underestimate Anakin a lot. He did defeat Count Dooku:
Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him. (starwars.com)
And Anakin in that fight against Dooku was just lightsaber combat. He did defeat Cin in the Jedi Temple last I checked and Cin was a great lightsaber duelist (not as great as Dooku, Mace, or Yoda).

Dooku goaded him as your quote says. Dooku wasn't trying his best, Anakin did surprise him but he would not have done so if Dooku would have tried his very best... And him defeating Cin? Well we don't know how he did it and the situation in which it was done makes me doubt if he could do so again in a normal situation. Possibly but its not like it matters becuase all of that still doesn't place him on the same level as Mace.

Actually Fishy I think that Anakin defeated Cin while choking a padawan (with his hand, not the force), and fighting against another padawan or two. So it was Anakin vs Cin and either 2 or 3 padawans and Anakin is fighting one handed while having mobility restricted (holding someone would make it harder for you to move).

So that is quite impressive

Well that would be quite impressive... Still doesn't put him up with Mace though... And do we know if he fought like that the entire time or was it just a flash of a second of the fight?

Mace would win.

Even if Anakin properly harnesses his anger, I'll still give it to Mace 8/10.

Originally posted by Fishy
Well that would be quite impressive... Still doesn't put him up with Mace though... And do we know if he fought like that the entire time or was it just a flash of a second of the fight?

No we don't know if he fought like that the entire time, but it does take time to physically choke people so he likely fought like that for some time. Also, I do remember hearing somewhere that he fought against Cin and the other padawans one handed just to mock him.

And while I am pretty sure this is fanboyish BS that I heard here I also heard that he did it using his off hand

Damn didn't even read the without the force part (i'm kinda tired so i'm missing a few things here and there)

But that really does make it quite impressive, I wouldn't put to much faith in the rest though... Okay it makes him more impressive then I first believed, still the circumstances are strange and I still wouldn't rank him on the same level of Mace, so i'm still saying Mace wins.

No I think that Mace wins as well, I was just putting out the little thing for Anakin

And yeah, that duel would have been VERY impressive

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
No I think that Mace wins as well, I was just putting out the little thing for Anakin

And yeah, that duel would have been VERY impressive

I know just stating.

This thread has been done...

But just to tell you, Mace would pwn Anakin.

Wow. Mace would seriously own him. No force powers Mace defeats him easily but 2nd round he may have a little more trouble but i think he would still come out with the win.

This thread has been done before. Use the search option. And Anakin would be destroyed by Mace Windu.

Exactly what I posted.

Why hasn't this been closed for being ridiculous?

I've seen more ridiculous threads... (i.e. Dooku vs three droidekas)

Or TPM Annie versus Han Solo.

Yeah.

Anakin Wins....... I am no fanboy, but in the RoTS game, he beaten Mace. And if u say "powers cannot be detirmed by a video game" than how do u know the powers of Darth Revan and others

Because one game is the source for the events of KotOR. A game that exists in the contuinity.

Another is a non-canon game which contradicts a source of higher value so that it could provide the people with more action.

And don't do the necromancy.

I actually agree with mikester. Go to your library and rent the making of revenge of the sith special edition. It tells you duologue that was cut, rearranged, or edited. It also shows you that that was one of maces alternate deaths. I don't remember most of them because they were identical to sids electrocuting him, but this alternate was here. They simply put it in the game, like when anakin and obi-wan were in the fuel leak area. Anakin has shown he's become a great duelist to become a great duelist-by not only killing Count Dooku- but also by choking a padawan, and fighting the lightsaber instructor at the same time. That's skill and strength.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why hasn't this been closed for being ridiculous? It hasn't been closed because you once said that Mace is below Dooku.

Lots of people believe that. It's not that rediculous a belief. I however know that the only people who ever surpassed Mace Windu in the movies were Sidious as of DE, Yoda in his day years before the movies, Darth Vader about ten years after ROTS and Luke Skywalker.

Yes, Anakin's skills would defeat Mace

Originally posted by Count Kent
Lots of people believe that. It's not that rediculous a belief. I however know that the only people who ever surpassed Mace Windu in the movies were Sidious as of DE, Yoda in his day years before the movies, Darth Vader about ten years after ROTS and Luke Skywalker. That's some impressive information you have about Mace Windu.. How did you know that Mace was better than Yoda during the times of the PT?

He displayed more impressive feats of the force and saber combat, in times when you couldn't possibly question the genuinity of their actions and decisions, or the situation.

Come again..

Buargh...

a) Read Shatterpoint
b) Then come again and tell me that Anakin would beat Mace.

This is simply stupid. Lucas himself said that the only people that could defeat Sidious are Mace, Yoda and Anakin at full potential which he never reached. He admits that he can't defeat Sidious in ROTS putting him below Mace and Yoda anyways. Then you have Asajj Ventress. While Anakin and Obi-Wan both had nice problems with her, Mace almost easily defeated her without any problems.

And please...in a sheer saber match Mace is the duelling prodigy, using his own combat style stated to be the "most deadly form of lightsaber combat" and having almost 30 years of training advantage over Anakin. In terms of force powers we've seen that Anakin was stalemating with Obi-Wan when they tried to force push each other on Mustafar. And in terms of force control and potential Obi-Wan was several levels below Mace.

So how is Anakin going to defeat Windu ? Because he defeated Dooku ? Anakin > Dooku, Mace = Dooku, so Anakin > Mace. Great reasoning...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, Anakin's skills would defeat Mace

A misuse of sarcasm. Please, that is impossible.

I suck at interpreting things, but this is what he said...

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't gotten all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor"

I was under the impression that he meant pre suit Vader > the Emperor, because he used "could've" instead of "would've".

I'd have to say that Anakin is on par with Mace in lightsaber combat. Everyone says Mace is about Dooku's equal and Anakin defeated the Count in lightsaber combat.

Anakin beat Dooku, Mace's equal at LEAST, how is Anakin beating Mace far fetched?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin beat Dooku, Mace's equal at LEAST, how is Anakin beating Mace far fetched?

I dont want to turn this into a Dooku vs Mace thread but Mace being the Counts equal AT LEAST is a load of bull sh*t. They were on par completely - with the Count very very slightly having the advantage.

Yeah, I'd say Dooku >= Mace too. But that doesn't mean Anakin would beat him...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont want to turn this into a Dooku vs Mace thread but Mace being the Counts equal AT LEAST is a load of bull sh*t. They were on par completely - with the Count very very slightly having the advantage. Uhmmm.. No, Mace had become far better than Dooku by the time of ROTS even though Dooku began using the dark side. You won't see Dooku winning from Sidious.. Ever!

Originally posted by overlord
Uhmmm.. No, Mace had become far better than Dooku by the time of ROTS even though Dooku began using the dark side. You won't see Dooku winning from Sidious.. Ever!

I disagree, but im not arguing the point now.

Mace's at least Dooku's equal. He'd improved heavily since they last fought as had Dooku

Mace>Dooku. It's obvious, from the way he pwnd Sidious.


Mace can pwn the whiny white "chosen one" too.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace's at least Dooku's equal. He'd improved heavily since they last fought as had Dooku It's just that Mace could overcome Sidious (or let him slip up), Dooku would never be able to do this.. But if Mace is already able to defeat Sidious, then who am I to say that he is not indeed far more powerful than most can imagine. Dooku also improved but Mace his improvement was massive IMO.

Originally posted by overlord
It's just that Mace could overcome Sidious (or let him slip up), Dooku would never be able to do this.. But if Mace is already able to defeat Sidious, then who am I to say that he is not indeed far more powerful than most can imagine. Dooku also improved but Mace his improvement was massive IMO.

Yeah but Palpatine had a chance to kill Mace and Anakin pwned Dooku.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Yeah but Palpatine had a chance to kill Mace and Anakin pwned Dooku.

Oh yes...Anakin "pwned" Dooku - after he had his own dumb self and his beloved friend Obi-Wan tossed through the room by the person he "pwned", right ? Does this "pwnage" include getting kicked through the room by Dooku while Dooku force choked Obi-Wan and then through him across the set ?

It's so damn obvious that Dooku wasn't giving Anakin all he could that it's almost pathetic how people keep arguing this. We have seen that Anakin isn't a match for neither Dooku nor Mace (hell...he couldn't overcome Obi-Wan) in terms of force powers. He is a quite skilled duellist, yes - how is that going to help him against the lightsaber prodigy of the PT Jedi order ? It won't ? Nice.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yes...Anakin "pwned" Dooku - after he had his own dumb self and his beloved friend Obi-Wan tossed through the room by the person he "pwned", right ? Does this "pwnage" include getting kicked through the room by Dooku while Dooku force choked Obi-Wan and then through him across the set ?

It's so damn obvious that Dooku wasn't giving Anakin all he could that it's almost pathetic how people keep arguing this. We have seen that Anakin isn't a match for neither Dooku nor Mace (hell...he couldn't overcome Obi-Wan) in terms of force powers. He is a quite skilled duellist, yes - how is that going to help him against the lightsaber prodigy of the PT Jedi order ? It won't ? Nice.

I agree.

Sorry Lightsnake/overlord but if i recall Anakin chopped Mace's arm off as well as Dooku's. And if Mace won how come he was thrown out the window by Sids lightning? Mace lost to Sids- just like Dooku probably would. Dooku and Mace are equals.

Mace didn't lose to Sids, he won. It would have been over had Anakin not interfered. The only reasn Mace was thrown out a window at all was simply because he got his arm lopped off by someone who was supposed to be his allie and Sith killer. I mean, would you really expect the one who is supposed to destroy the sith to end up sympathizing with the Sith and attacking you? You, who have known this person for years.

But then there is the whole debate in whether Sids was holding back. I cant be bothered arguing that (even though he was holding back). But the point I was making is that Mace and the Count are equal.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But then there is the whole debate in whether Sids was holding back. I cant be bothered arguing that (even though he was holding back).

Yeah i was gonna mention that, the speculation that Sids was holding back.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree.

Sorry Lightsnake/overlord but if i recall Anakin chopped Mace's arm off as well as Dooku's. And if Mace won how come he was thrown out the window by Sids lightning? Mace lost to Sids- just like Dooku probably would. Dooku and Mace are equals.
Oh yes, now Mace lost to Sidious? You are delusional. And yes, Anakin chopped off Mace his arm but Mace wasn't exactly fighting him, was he?
Dooku could never defeat Sidious and mace is way beyond his level by the time of ROTS.

@Borborad, YES yes!! He didn't give his all! Of course! He lowered his attention span just so he could be surprised by Anakin. Get serious dude, Anakin beat him. You don't let yourself get killed if you're toying, you'd be attacking less and defend more, this is basic logic.

Originally posted by overlord
@Borborad, YES yes!! He didn't give his all! Of course! He lowered his attention span just so he could be surprised by Anakin. Get serious dude, Anakin beat him. You don't let yourself get killed if you're toying, you'd be attacking less and defend more, this is basic logic.

Dooku stopped using the force and was told not to kill Anakin before but just fight and (eventually) defeat him. I'd call it a serious limitation if you are not allowed to kill your opponent and deceide not to use your powers against him that were enough to floor him and his master 30 seconds before.

And of course the best thing is taunting your opponent into using his anger instead of trying to keep it under control which makes your opponent more powerful in this particular situation.

Basic logic ? Basic logic doesn't mean that "If Mace and Dooku are basically equal, and Anakin beat Dooku, he must beat Mace". That's no logical reasoning. It's BS.

Saberwise Mace has the advantage to have mastered Anakin's style in order to create his own and he's still using the "most deadly form of lightsaber combat". Then he has his Shatterpoint ability and considerable force mastery on is own seeing that he was second in command of the order and had his ass on the Council at the age of 28 were other people had just become Jedi Knights normally.

So...what is Anakin going to do against him. He was unable to beat Kenobi who would have no chance against Mace. Anakin simply lacks control over his abilities.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku stopped using the force and was told not to kill Anakin before but just fight and (eventually) defeat him. I'd call it a serious limitation if you are not allowed to kill your opponent and deceide not to use your powers against him that were enough to floor him and his master 30 seconds before.

And of course the best thing is taunting your opponent into using his anger instead of trying to keep it under control which makes your opponent more powerful in this particular situation.

Basic logic ? Basic logic doesn't mean that "If Mace and Dooku are basically equal, and Anakin beat Dooku, he must beat Mace". That's no logical reasoning. It's BS.

Saberwise Mace has the advantage to have mastered Anakin's style in order to create his own and he's still using the "most deadly form of lightsaber combat". Then he has his Shatterpoint ability and considerable force mastery on is own seeing that he was second in command of the order and had his ass on the Council at the age of 28 were other people had just become Jedi Knights normally.

So...what is Anakin going to do against him. He was unable to beat Kenobi who would have no chance against Mace. Anakin simply lacks control over his abilities. Well said. Dooku and Mace might have been equals at one point. But since that time Mace had improved a lot. However Dooku did not try his hardest though. Had he used some force powers he would have crushed Anakin. Anakin simply overpowered him and performed a tricky manuever to cut off Dooku's hands. Simple as that. It does not make him better. Dooku underestimated Anakin and paid the price. Anakin could not beat Mace. Mace would not waste his time taunting Anakin like Dooku did. Mace did also beat Sidious. Though I think Sidious was holding back. I imagine he sensed Anakin coming and took a chance that Anakin would show up there. He made Anakin make the hardest choice of his life.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku stopped using the force and was told not to kill Anakin before but just fight and (eventually) defeat him. I'd call it a serious limitation if you are not allowed to kill your opponent and deceide not to use your powers against him that were enough to floor him and his master 30 seconds before.

And of course the best thing is taunting your opponent into using his anger instead of trying to keep it under control which makes your opponent more powerful in this particular situation.
Yeah, just stop using the force, eh? Sure buddy, whatever you say. He suddenly went on fighting like normal people do, didn't he so he wouldn't exidently kill Anakin.
And if he in some weird way made Anakin more powerful then he should have anticipated and not get surprised or overpowered like he did.
I don't know if you make things up but it makes no sense that Dooku would begin holding back and make sure he gets overpowered like he did. Whatever, you people just wouldn't like the idea of Anakin being better than Dooku. Maybe Anakin was more in tune with the force! Maybe that's how he reacted better!

You're retarded, why do you suddenly bring that up again when I'm saying that toying doesn't involve lowering your defenses or lowering your attention span.

Nah, it's not the lack of control. Mace Windu is just far better than Dooku and probably better than Anakin as well so you can stop the "If Mace and Dooku are basically equal, and Anakin beat Dooku, he must beat Mace" you accuse people of.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree.

Sorry Lightsnake/overlord but if i recall Anakin chopped Mace's arm off
Anakin did not cut off Mace's hand in actual one on one combat (as Dooku did to him), he only did so because Mace's blade was already on the down swing, and it would have been virtually impossible for him to have stopped his swing in time to avoid Anakin's chickenshit attack. Anakin only cut off Dooku's hands because he physically grabbed hold of his arms (preventing him from using his lightsaber) and then cut his hands off, he did not do so inactual blade to blade combat as Dooku did to him. It was, like what he did to Mace, a chickenshit attack.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
And if Mace won how come he was thrown out the window by Sids lightning?
He wasn't. If you watch the scene, a second before Mace goes flying, there is a grunt of exertion. That is because Sam pushed himself out on the wires. He was not ratcheted out. That choice of technique suggests that in the story, Mace used the Force to fling himself out of the window and risk the fall (which could have been surviveable) than stay and get fried by the lightning.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
And while I am pretty sure this is fanboyish BS that I heard here I also heard that he did it using his off hand
Do you mean his left hand? Although Hayden Christensen writes with his right hand, he has a tendency to wield his lightsaber left-handed (possibly ambidextrous)
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/ani/aotc_ani81.jpg
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/ani/aotc_ani95.jpg
So what you think of as his 'off hand', might not necessarily be the case.

Dooku was trying to get Anakin angry to turn him to the dark side. He did not expect Anakin to be as powerful as he was when he was angry so he was caught off guard and overpowered. It is as simple as that.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Dooku was trying to get Anakin angry to turn him to the dark side. He did not expect Anakin to be as powerful as he was when he was angry so he was caught off guard and overpowered. It is as simple as that. Yes, although I think it was more a case of physical strength (a young man over powering a much older one) than Force powers or fencing skill. As I said, Anakin did not cut Dooku's hands off during blade to blade combat (as Dooku had done to him) he physically grabbed his arms, immobilizing his lightsaber, and then cut his hands off, a totally chickenshit move.

when i said powerful i was refering to physical strength

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
when i said powerful i was refering to physical strength
That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarrify, as a lot of the time people refer to a Jedi's power as their ability to use the Force, not their physical strength (and your comment turned the page, so my previous mention of Anakin's status as a chickenshit might have been missed )

You do not know how happy I was to see Anakin get badly hurt from his fight with obi-wan. Anakin runs his mouth way to much. I hate Anakin. Though I do like Vader in the OT. Ever notice how different Vader from the OT acts compared to him as Anakin or non mechanical vader in ROTS. Yes he is a good duelest, he is physicaly strong (Even stronger when angry), and has decent force skills. But that does not mean he is the most powerful person in ROTS. In terms of lightsaber skill he close to Dooku is skill but Dooku is still better. In terms of Force powers and control Dooku is a lot higher. As is Yoda, Mace, Palpatine and the rest of the Jedi Council except with maybe the exception of Obi-Wan. Fact is he could not beat Obi-Wan and it is safe to assume that he can not beat Mace, Yoda, Sidious and possibly the rest of the jedi council.

He could defeat any of the council with the exception of Mace Windu and Yoda. Did you miss him defeating Assaj Ventress, or Durge, or Count Dooku, or Cin Drallig, or Jocastu Nu, or Shaak Ti or Stass Allie? Did you forget about his purging of the jedi?

Actualy most of the jedi council were offworld on missions as were many most of the jedi. The Clone Troopers killed most of the Jedi that were left. Then do not forget the jedi that were with Mace when he went to arrest Windu. You saw what happened to them. All the people left in the jedi temple were mostly just a bunch of younglings and a few jedi knights. All of which stood little chance against Anakin and an army of clone troopers. He only beat Dooku by physicly overpowering him which Dooku had not been expecting and was caught off guard. If dooku had been trying to kill him, Anakin would have been dead. I am sick of people making such a big deal over him. Here are his big acomplishments in ROTS. He physicly overpowered an old man who was not trying to kill him. Cut off his hands. Then killed him even though he had no weapon. He led Windu to Palpatine, then instead of helping out Windu he cheap shots him cutting off his arm. He then proceeds to wipe out the remaining jedi in the temple with the help of an army. He kills all the little kids. Then he force chokes his wife. The reality of what he had became made Padme loose the will to live. Not exactly an amazing list of accomplishment so me. If anything he shows he is nothing more then a coward.

In ROTS alone, he killed Dooku (may have been lucky and Dooku may have been toying with him and holding back and trying to turn him to the dark side, however it is still pretty impressive), purged the jedi (may have been mostly younglings and knights with lots of help from clones, but still impressive), defeated Cin Drallig (who was incredible) and many of his students including Serra Keto, defeated Jocastu Nu who had once been on the council, defeated Shaak Ti, defeated Stass Allie and many other masters, and was able to outclass and toy with his master when he himself was in fact not in the best conditions to fight and only lost because he was complacent, arrogant and unlucky.

You Anakin fan boys realy make me laugh. Yes anakin is skilled not the best. That is the point I was trying to make.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
You do not know how happy I was to see Anakin get badly hurt from his fight with obi-wan. Anakin runs his mouth way to much. I hate Anakin. Though I do like Vader in the OT. Ever notice how different Vader from the OT acts compared to him as Anakin or non mechanical vader in ROTS. Yes he is a good duelest, he is physicaly strong (Even stronger when angry), and has decent force skills. But that does not mean he is the most powerful person in ROTS. In terms of lightsaber skill he close to Dooku is skill but Dooku is still better. In terms of Force powers and control Dooku is a lot higher. As is Yoda, Mace, Palpatine and the rest of the Jedi Council except with maybe the exception of Obi-Wan. Fact is he could not beat Obi-Wan and it is safe to assume that he can not beat Mace, Yoda, Sidious and possibly the rest of the jedi council.
I agree with you completely there, although I don't hate Anakin, as I can see the reasons for his actions are not intentionally selfish. He was essentially a good person, but too unwilling to accept change.

I also believe that he is skilled but not the best, but putting other council members like Mundi and Secura is plain rediculous.

Originally posted by Count Kent
and was able to outclass and toy with his master
I don't remember Anakin outclassing or toying with Obi-Wan at any point during their duel, they were evenly matched and stalemated each other continuously throughout. I agree that the reason he lost was his arrogance, because he could not believe that Obi-Wan could (or infact would) beat him

Did you miss the part where he was chokeing the hell out of Obi-Wan, or when he was breathing normally while Obi-Wan was panting?

Originally posted by Count Kent
I also believe that he is skilled but not the best, but putting other council members like Mundi and Secura is plain rediculous.
Why?
Ki-Adi Mundi was hardly my favorite character, but, he was still an exceptional lightsaber duelist. In Clone Wars, he was able to duel one on one with Grievous (who was at that point undamaged and 'in his prime') and although he didn't actually beat Grievous, he was able to hold him off till the ARCs turned up.
I admit, Aayla is a bit more of an unknown quantity, but in the EU she's shown to be a capable duelist (took down Aura Sing who was herself, a Jedi hunter) She only went down so easily to the clones because she was a) taken by surprize while b) already distracted by something, so it's not surprizing she was caught totally off guard. Seeing as she was one of the few to survive the Battle of Geonosis, I suspect she would have faired better in a more fair fight.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Did you miss the part where he was chokeing the hell out of Obi-Wan, or when he was breathing normally while Obi-Wan was panting?
Once more, a case of Anakin the wifebeater resorting to chickenshit fist fighting rather than duelling. The fact he's ten years younger than Obi-Wan would be why he was less taxed by the encounter. Didn't prevent him getting his arm and legs cut off though, did it. When Obi-Wan and Anakin were in the controll room and actually duelling and then tried to Force push each other, each stalemated the other.

Mundi was one of the least powerful jedi masters, as well as Secura in the whole SW saga. Wow he was able to desperately fend off Grievous' attacks, Obi-Wan was able to completely own him and Anakin was above Obi-Wan, you're dumb if you don't think so. Mundi was only on the council for his wisdom, he was a diplomat, nothing else. He hadn't even mastered lightsaber combat or the force and was weak in terms of combat. He got completely owned by clones and he has never displayed anything that would make you think he was more powerful then Anakin.

And Padme also survived Geonosis, she must rock.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Mundi was one of the least powerful jedi masters, as well as Secura in the whole SW saga.
Still good enough to hold off Grievous in peak condition...

Originally posted by Count Kent
Wow he was able to desperately fend off Grievous' attacks
Which was more than any other Jedi in Clone Wars were able to do...

Originally posted by Count Kent
Obi-Wan was able to completely own him
Because when Obi-Wan faced Grievous, Grievous was damaged and ****ed up by Mace's Force Choke. In Clone Wars, he held off five Jedi using only two lightsabers. He only detatched his arms at the very end as a surprize advantage against the Ithorian Jedi and his Fuzzy chum. When he was confronted by Anakin and Obi-Wan, he didn't even engage them, but instead ran away. When he then faced Obi-Wan one on one, he had to detatch his arms and use four lightsabers, so his combat skills had clearly been damaged and reduced from what they had been in Clone Wars, when Mundi was still able to at least hold him off.

Originally posted by Count Kent
and Anakin was above Obi-Wan, you're dumb if you don't think so.
Anakin might have been younger than Obi-Wan and had a stronger connection to the Force, but he was not above Obi-Wan in terms of all round fighting and Jedi Prowess. Who ultimately lost the fight between them? Anakin. When they then fought each other on the Death Star, Obi-Wan held him off untill he chose to stop fighting to let Vader strike him down so he could become one with the Force. Obi-Wan might not have been 'more powerfull' in the Top Trumps way of judging things, but he always came out on top of Anakin in a situation.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Mundi was only on the council for his wisdom, he was a diplomat, nothing else. He hadn't even mastered lightsaber combat or the force and was weak in terms of combat.
Again, who was the Jedi left standing from the encounter with General Grievous in Clone Wars?

He got completely owned by clones
Which Jedi weren't??!! They were all (apart from Yoda, who probably overheard the communique) taken completely by surprize because the clones were simply following a legitimate executive order from their commander in cheif (Palpatine), so there was no malicious intent, which is why the Jedi were unable to pick up on it sooner. Obi-Wan only survived because the canon missed him and he was able to survive the fall. Ki-Adi Mundi was one of the only Jedi to actually block the clone's initial attack, and that was because he happened to be looking directly at them, he was just overwhelmed by sheer numbers. A group of people firing automatic weapons at one person does not constitute 'owning' them, and is as chickenshit as the moves Anakin pulled on Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Count Kent
he has never displayed anything that would make you think he was more powerful then Anakin.
I never said he was more powerful than Anakin, but he was clearly a more skilled Jedi than the ones Mace took with him to arrest Palpatine.

Originally posted by Count Kent
And Padme also survived Geonosis, she must rock.
By having Anakin at her side and protecting her... Yes, she displayed some initiative and was by no means a bystander in the fight, but, at that point, Aayla was just a background character (like the ones who got killed) so her character survival must have been due to skill (although being played by a scantilly clad hot chick probably helped) rather than having to survive for plot continuity.

Obi-Wan stretched out the fight until Anakin did something stupid. Anakin lost because Kenobi knew all of his moves and because he was emotionally blinded and overwhelemed by grief. He couldn't concentrate when Padme turned against him. Obi-Wan won (don't get me wrong, he was the greater warrior due to him controlling his emotions and using his resources), but Anakin was the more skilled fighter even while emotionally blinded and overwhelmed by grief ("This is the end for you my master". Anakin looks fine and Obi-Wan is panting like crazy).

The only people above/near Anakin are Yoda, Dooku, Mace, Emperor and Kenobi.

Originally posted by Razielim
Obi-Wan stretched out the fight until Anakin did something stupid.
Partly because he was a better tactician than Anakin, but also because Anakin could not (and never did) overpower him (chickenshit fist fighting not counting)

Originally posted by Razielim
Anakin lost because Kenobi knew all of his moves and because he was emotionally blinded and overwhelemed by grief. He couldn't concentrate when Padme turned against him. Obi-Wan won, but Anakin was the more skilled fighter even while emotionally blinded and overwhelemed by grief
And Obi-Wan was completely unnaffected by the slaughter of the Younglings at the Temple? You could hear his voice breaking with distress when he spoke of it to Padme, so he was clearly as upset about that as Anakin was about the events with Padme, so they would be just as relevent to the fight.
Why would Anakin be overwheled by grief?
What was he grieving?
He was just pissed off that he thought his wife was supporting someone else rather than him, (so he started being a chickenshit wifebeater) and according to Count Dooku, anger should have actually made him more powerfull.



In Shadow Hunter, I believe Maul also channeled his anger to increase his power, so Anakin being pissed off should actually have helped him, but it didn't, because he could had no control over his temper.

Originally posted by Razielim
Anakin looks fine and Obi-Wan is panting like crazy).

As I said before, Anakin was sixteen years younger than Obi-Wan, is it any wonder he was in better physical condition?

Of course not, but Obi-Wan has far better control over his emotions. This contributed to his victory and the fact that he was the better fighter.



His wife that he did all this crap for just left him. That indeed could have made him mad, but Anakin has been trained as a peaceful Jedi and has no real Sith training. Does he know how to control his anger yet? Was his anger really helping him?



Yep, and he's also 30 years younger than Mace.

Originally posted by Razielim
Obi-Wan stretched out the fight until Anakin did something stupid. Anakin lost because Kenobi knew all of his moves and because he was emotionally blinded and overwhelemed by grief. He couldn't concentrate when Padme turned against him. Obi-Wan won (don't get me wrong, he was the greater warrior due to him controlling his emotions and using his resources), but Anakin was the more skilled fighter even while emotionally blinded and overwhelmed by grief ("This is the end for you my master". Anakin looks fine and Obi-Wan is panting like crazy).

The only people above/near Anakin are Yoda, Dooku, Mace, Emperor and Kenobi.
What about the emotions Obi-Wan was going through. First his own men betrays him. Then he finds out the jedi are all being killed. He then discoverers Anakin had helped attack the temple, killed younglings and had gone over on to the dark side. He was then forced to track down Anakin. He then witnesses Anakin harm Padme. The woman Anakin had loved more then any other person. He then realizes how far Anakin was and knew that he had to have been stopped and he had to be the one to do it. Obi-Wan loved Anakin like he was his brother. Obi-Wan just managed to control his emotions better. Though at the end he was crying. You could not see any tears cause the intense heat of the planet kept evaperating his tears.

Originally posted by Razielim
Of course not, but Obi-Wan has far better control over his emotions. This contributed to his victory and the fact that he was the better fighter.
Precicely. Obi-Wan was the better fighter.

Originally posted by Razielim
His wife that he did all this crap for just left him. That indeed could have made him mad, but Anakin has been trained as a peaceful Jedi and has no real Sith training. Does he know how to control his anger yet?
He seemed to be using his anger okay here...:
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/ani/aotc_ani81.jpg

Originally posted by Razielim
Was his anger really helping him?

That depends if he was actually able to control it. If indeed he was using it, then all it did was put him to a level Obi-Wan was capable of defending against, but not overpowering. If he wasn't using it constructively, then it wasn't helping him.

Originally posted by Razielim
Yep, and he's also 30 years younger than Mace.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that he would be able to beat Mace. As I said before, Anakin cut Mace's hand off with a chickenshit move that Mace had no way of avoiding, it was not done in actual one on one combat, just as when he cut Count Dooku's hands off it was a chickenshit move (physically overpowering an old man then cutting his hands off) rather than having superior fencing skills.

Yes, Obi-Wan was going through a lot. He had better control over his emotions. I addressed that. Read.

that was to Jul, btw.

Originally posted by Razielim
Yes, Obi-Wan was going through a lot. He had better control over his emotions. I addressed that. Read.

that was to Jul, btw.

I was just going into more detail on what he was going through

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, just stop using the force, eh? Sure buddy, whatever you say. He suddenly went on fighting like normal people do, didn't he so he wouldn't exidently kill Anakin.
And if he in some weird way made Anakin more powerful then he should have anticipated and not get surprised or overpowered like he did.
I don't know if you make things up but it makes no sense that Dooku would begin holding back and make sure he gets overpowered like he did. Whatever, you people just wouldn't like the idea of Anakin being better than Dooku. Maybe Anakin was more in tune with the force! Maybe that's how he reacted better!

No...what makes no sense is that Dooku was completely owning Obi-Wan and Anakin and suddenly Anakin "pwns" him. Did he suddenly receive a uber skill boost in the few seconds between Dooku slapping him and Obi-Wan around and the second he cut Dooku's hand off ? I don't think so. The only explanation is that he used his anger which made him stronger or simply surprised Dooku in that particular situation.



I'm retarded ? Nice way of debating, idiot. The point is that you brought up the topic of "toying" (Did I say Dooku toyed with Anakin ? No !) when I just said that he didn't went all out against Anakin and was surprised by Anakin suddenly using his anger and coming up with quite "unusual" fighting moves for a Jedi (cutting the hands of your opponent off). There is a difference between this and "toying" with your opponent. The fact remains that Dooku controlled the fight rather easily when he was facing Obi-Wan and Anakin together.



I "accuse" people off ? Lmao. Look at the thread and read some of the pro-Anakin posts. This is exactly the argument most people presented here so far. What a strange coincidence - isn't it ? And how should I understand your post if you start arguing that Anakin defeated Dooku fair and square ? Did you ever develop the idea that people could view this as an extend of the "Anakin > Dooku, Dooku = Mace, so Anakin > Mace" argument ? No...of course not. Developing ideas is beyond you, correct ?

Completely owning Obi Wan and Anakin by starting to fight serious, wow. And then Anakin pwns him? You can talk in a normal fashion to me, borborad.
Anakin starts using fighting serious aswell and kicks Dooku off the stage only to defeat him in a duel where they are both fighting at their best. And yes, the fighting style Anakin uses is pretty agressive. So is Mace his Vaapad.
Who cares.. Dooku couldn't keep up and was outmanouvered.

Ever considered that Anakin and Obi Wan started out not serious and when Dooku punished them for that, that Anakin really began using his full knowledge of fighting? Dooku also didn't really control the fight at first, he still wasn't serious aswell and merely retaliated.
You're still retarded by suddenly bringing up the "Anakin > Dooku, Dooku = Mace, so Anakin > Mace" line though. What was that all about..

You constantly say use that line even when I was talking about the basic logic that Dooku won't let his hands get torn off (AKA losing) when he is supposed to not fight serious (AKA attacking).
You exagurate the amount that line is used and the people who use it should be ignored anyway. We're talking about how Anakin is supposed to be way below Mace and Dooku now. Mace is way better than Dooku with his perfected Vaapad skills, Dooku just isn't that great compared to both.
But you probably want to laugh your ass off only to that dumb "Anakin > Dooku, Dooku = Mace, so Anakin > Mace" line as it is easy to go against. Just don't bring it up when unnecessary.

As for the thread in question. I don't think Anakin can beat Mace Windu, although I'm not too sure but Dooku would NEVER beat Mace Windu at the time of ROTS in any case.

Originally posted by overlord
Completely owning Obi Wan and Anakin by starting to fight serious, wow. And then Anakin pwns him? You can talk in a normal fashion to me, borborad.


I consider this to be a joke coming from the guy who called me "retarded".



Lmao. Yes...of course. Anakin and Obi-Wan won't fight serious against an opponent that completely destroyed them during their last confrontation - despite of the fact that they have a hostage sitting around next to them and the fact that Dooku is one of the two leaders of the CIS and possibly the most dangerous (known) enemy for the Jedi at this time period. What dumbass would not fight serious against an opponent like that ?
And get yourself a dictionary and have a look at the word "retarded" you pathetic excuse for an intelligent life-form.



And you constantly come up with this line when this has nothing to do with Anakin vs Mace. The only "logic" to even bring Dooku up is to start with Mace and Dooku being equals. Otherwise you're simply off topic here since the topic says "Anakin vs Mace" and not "Anakin vs Dooku".

Of course Dooku won't let his hands get torn off. But if he didn't go all out on Anakin this particular event might have been prevented by doing so. We have seen him handling his weapon and blast people with force lightning in the same second before (against Sora Bulq). Why shouldn't he be able to do the same thing against Anakin who basically doesn't have any chance to block Dooku's saber and a force attack (Dooku can use his off-hand as he never uses both hands against Anakin) ?



Yes...Dooku isn't that great compared to Anakin and Mace. Of course. He is just a dude that had more then 6 decades of force training, more than a decade of Sith training. He was mentioned to be one of the most powerful Jedi of the last centuries, his saber skills were only rivaled by Mace and Yoda and we've seen him being able to escape from a duel with his old master Yoda.
But somehow he's less impressive than the guy who got his limbs chopped off by Obi-Wan Kenobi whom Dooku manhandled without any effort in both RotS and AotC.



He couldn't ? What makes you so sure ? Mace improved over the years, yes. Dooku did too as Yoda himself says in AotC. Considering that Dooku was the number 3 Jedi of the era so far (at least until Anakin has shown up) why would he not able to overcome Mace ?
In their only confrontation during the Clone Wars neither of them was able to claim an advantage over the other - Dooku just went out of the situation. But the fight even then could have ended either way. Just to claim that Mace will just defeat Dooku or Dooku would never be able to defeat Mace is outright hilarious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I consider this to be a joke coming from the guy who called me "retarded".What? Are you upset or do you need to laugh your ass off? You say that Dooku was owning both Anakin and Obi Wan at the beginning of the fight. Yeah, he obtains the upper hand for a second by starting to fight seriously. You people with your owning and pwning nonsense. Talk serious.




The fight was just beginning, and they were pretty cocky as they learned a whole of a lot more. Of course it takes a while to get a fight started, what do you expect? Whirlwinds of sabers shooting at each other without any form of hesitation or testing out opponents, start thinking.
Go laugh your ass off or cry that I call you a retard instead of arguing.



That's a dumb assumption, by now you must have finally read that I don't bring up Dooku to say that Anakin can defeat him aswell because you think Dooku is on the same level as Mace. Sorry, you fail.

I am just sick of all this Dooku fanboyism and I am the only one who responds to it apperantly. That's why I am talking about it here again.

And boohoohoo, yeah, why didn't he blast off Anakin with the force? Maybe because force lightning means crap next to a slash of a lightsaber. Anakin is prepared anyway, as if he would let himself be electrocuted again. Not that it would decide the fight by default anyway.
The fight went way too fast when they started playing seriously to even consider finding a right moment to unleash force lightning.
There is still something like being force sensitive in the world of SW. No matter how much of a swords master you can become, you don't upgrade your awareness in the force.
And wow! He managed to hold off Yoda and escape! That's the best argument to Dooku being a top dog I have heard! That will be going in my profile!
Yeah, unfortunately Dooku didn't perfect and complete a whole new style of fighting. You'll have to be pretty good at improvising to deal with a style you don't know as well. And you can find it hilarious as much as you want but Mace still bested Dooku's master. Dooku's great improvement of going sith wasn't so spectacular, if anything.. Sith fail, just look at Anakin going steaming mad, losing focus, not being able to defeat his former master, jumping in lava.
But I just think it's logical to assume that Mace Windu is far superior to almost all jedi and also Count Dooku. Maybe Anakin would be able to defeat him without getting all nervous and shit but I doubt it.

Just look where Sidious stranded with his supposed knowledge of multiple lightsaber styles. Both Sidious and Count Dooku were defeated fair and square all though nobody like the idea.
Actually, I don't like it either but it's all I see from the movies and not otherwise, how beautiful the theory may be.

Ok i just have to ask you something in sideuos versus mace.

Mace isnt 20 times better then kit fisto in lightsaber combat. And mace wouldnt be able to take out 3 jedi masters in some seconds.

We start in the fight:
Mace is attacking, and sideous shows that he was able to either slay mace with the lightsaber, or give him an electric shower.

As we move over to anakin:
When you see anakin standing and crying, he is thinking on what sideous said. The cool thing is that he hear:
"I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE".
What is cool about this?, well the cool thing is that sideous never says that. He is actully telling anakin telepatic to join him.

Back to the fight:
Sideous is using force lightning. The worste thing is that he would be able to push mace out into the air. And another point is that he use the lightning untill Mace drops one hand, he actully stops using lightning exactly when he lose his guard.
The funny thing is that you would problaby say that he is to weak to use more. But the EVEN more funny thing is that sideous can use lightning right after anakin cuted mace hand of.

Now head to lightning:
Why would lightning make your teeths yellow, why would it make you look older. Then you can say "But it does, you have no proof it doesnt". But why arent Luke transforming into old grandpa, when sideous use his lightning against Luke.

Ok overlord.. im just really tired of you...

Originally posted by Count Kent
In ROTS alone, he killed Dooku (may have been lucky and Dooku may have been toying with him and holding back and trying to turn him to the dark side, however it is still pretty impressive), purged the jedi (may have been mostly younglings and knights with lots of help from clones, but still impressive), defeated Cin Drallig (who was incredible) and many of his students including Serra Keto, defeated Jocastu Nu who had once been on the council, defeated Shaak Ti, defeated Stass Allie and many other masters, and was able to outclass and toy with his master when he himself was in fact not in the best conditions to fight and only lost because he was complacent, arrogant and unlucky.

Fool Stass was the one killed on a Speeder Bike Shaak Ti was killed while Meditating and Cin was not on the Council. Jocasta Nu was killed whie being choked and then Stabbed before Reacting son don't BS me Kent

http://www.google-fight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Anakin+Skywalker&word2=Mace+Windu
Sorry to say it, but I still think Mace would wtf pwn him

Originally posted by Count Kent
I also believe that he is skilled but not the best, but putting other council members like Mundi and Secura is plain rediculous.

Secura WAS NOT ON THE COUNCIL she was a KNIGHT

Originally posted by overlord
What? Are you upset or do you need to laugh your ass off? You say that Dooku was owning both Anakin and Obi Wan at the beginning of the fight. Yeah, he obtains the upper hand for a second by starting to fight seriously. You people with your owning and pwning nonsense. Talk serious.


What ? Excuse me. You can see him blocking both at once one handed and then he almost effortlessly took Obi-Wan out of the fight (force choke, throw) while kicking Anakin through the room who was trying to attack him from behind. How much superiority does somebody has to show ?



Did you see the same movie I did see ? The fight was just starting ? Somehow I do remember that Obi-Wan already took out the droids, they launched some attacks on Dooku, Anakin gave us his famous "I've become twice as powerful since we met last time, Count" line.

Testing out opponents that they allready faced ? Anakin and Obi-Wan both knew how strong Dooku was not to mention that they were fighting 2 vs 1. They totally needed to hesitate and "test out the opponent" right - especially until the point when more than half of the fight was over and Dooku took out Obi-Wan and floored Anakin with a backkick, right ?
And then suddently, after his fellow has been taken out of the fight, Anakin decides that this might be the right time to start fighting serious. Excuse me...but if you "test" your opponent so long or "hesistate" in a 2 vs 1 situation that one of your team gets taken out of the fight you're obviously acting too dumb to be a trained warrior.



Wow. You just discovered new valleys of infantility in the high mountains of idiocy. Congrats.



What is this here ? Dooku fanboyism against Anakin fanboyism ?



You did realize that Dooku fights with one hand and uses Sith lightning with one hand, right ? And how would Anakin block lightning and Dooku's saber at once with his saber ? And no...it wouldn't decide the fight. How long did Dooku knock Anakin off with a single blast in AotC ?



No. The best argument for Dooku being a top dog is the fact that he and Yoda were the two only people who ever defeated Mace Windu in lightsaber duel. Not to mention Gillard leveling him a level 9 duellist (as Yoda, Mace, Sidious and ROTS Anakin only) and so on.
And wow...force sensitivity. You mean like Obi-Wan (possibly the Jedi with less force potential ever) stalemating Anakin (the Jedi with the greatest force potential ever) in a force contest while Dooku is just one of the most powerful individuals the Jedi Order has seen in the last centuries ?



Unfortunately Dooku did beat Mace before and is the master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat".



Yes. Dooku wouldn't know Mace style since it's mentioned that they were good friends (read Shatterpoint) and spared quite often and Mace didn't manage to beat him up to the time of TPM after practicing Vaapad for almost 3 decades.



Oh my. The level 9 duellist, master of another level 9 duellist was beaten by another level 9 duellist ? Not that you only assume that Sidious is far superior to Dooku in terms of lightsaber handling...you're pretty good at using the "Because A>B and B>C, A must be > C" logic that you said I was "accusing" you off. "Because Mace was able to beat Sidious and Sidious was Dooku's master, Mace must be able to beat Dooku". Sounds familiar, huh ?



Hello...Dooku and Yoda where the only people able to beat Mace but suddenly Mace is "far superior" to Dooku ? Why ? Dooku became much stronger because of using the Dark Side (stated by himself and Yoda as well) - Mace on the other handside grew stronger because of his war experience. Still you can't take two equals, give them both 13 years of experience and therefore more power and than say one of them must be far superior to the other. That is far away from being "logical"...



They still weren't beaten clearly. Or let me put it in other words: You can't say that Mace will always beat Sidious or Anakin will always beat Dooku because of the circumstances the fights happened in and the fact that they were all rated to be equally good in terms of lightsaber combat with some advantage / weakness caused by their respective styles and movement preferences.
Not to mention that Dooku and Sidious were both defeated by rather "unconventional" or "surprising" moves of their opponents.

Hahaha, the fight started out stupid, they slashed a bit and began to babble again, Anakin just pointed his sword to the ground when Dooku blocked Obi Wan. They talked and went further with apperantly testing each other. (I heard they even used other dueling styles or something but who cares)
Dooku retaliates and starts fighting serious and punishes them both, yes this is a sign of superiority (something wich may have impressed you a bit too much) but it was only for a short moment.
Then Anakin began fighting seriously with Shienn and they began fighting at a good way.

Awww.. You don't believe it right? And you are talking about the impressive retaliation of Count Dooku again? Well, Anakin and Obi Wan learned a hell of a lot more and the last time they fought was way different. I assume they thought they could take him out, no problem. They didn't know he was also not fighting seriously at the beginning up until he punishes them and especially Obi Wan.
But you may continue your believes that they weren't cocky (and by that I mean Kenobi) and they really gave their best immediately. I will just ignore you in that case.

At least I don't have to constantly mention that I am laughing my ass off behind my computer, idiot.

WOWZERS!! You discovered the whole secret!! Not that I am a dumbass like you all but at least the one I am defending indeed defeated the one you are all defending. Go cry some more and make up some more theories to why Dooku didn't lost fair and square.

If you start screaming that Dooku could always win because he has two hands in a lightning fast duel then you should ask yourself why Dooku and Sidious don't win every duel by using force lightning. Oh yeah, your theory is that they ALWAYS hold back.. Hmm.. I don't think I believe much of that crap..

Ahh.. All that crap about Yoda and Dooku having beaten Mace some time. I didn't saw them do it in ROTS and frankly, I don't care.. All I know is that Mace did some way more impressive sabering than Dooku.
About force sensitivity (oh, the force is strong in this one!), sure it means nothing anymore to you, doesn't it? That suits you fine in this argument.
So Anakin didn't manage to get the upper hand on Obi Wan, I say he should've stayed calm, then he'd stand a chance. But who cares, the circumstances in the Dooku/Anakin fight are way different. And what is your definition of power in this "Dooku is most powerful they evar saw!!11!!11" line?

Is that your answer to that Dooku never came up with a whole new fighting style? Don't bother anymore in that case. You aren't forced to say something to every sentance I make. Just make it relevant. Mace Windu completed that f*cking Vaapad and even managed to get Sidious beat who is by his own right the master of Dooku. Just let it go, people became better than Dooku, you aren't losing sleep over this fact I hope?

I suppose they spent training together in cool EU BS right until ROTS and Mace finally completing the form, otherwise what you are telling me is mighty irrelevent.

At least I go by the movies instead of level this and that and goku powerlevel 9. But yes, Mace can probably overcome Dooku aswell. The things Dooku showed in ROTS weren't so impressive unfortunately.
Hey, maybe Sidious was overcome just because of the unknown new way of dueling! Who knows! Mace his reaction skills were pretty fine though to beat the lord of the sith, if Anakin already could surprise Dooku, I am sure Mace can aswell. Who cares anyway..

Yeah yeah, they supposedly have beaten Mace in the past. He's a prodigy or something or a fast learner, who cares.. He just improved massively for some reason wich may be a bit contradictory to some EU material or something, who cares.. He showed he could beat Sidious in a fair duel and Sidious is no easy opponent. You just may have to consider that Mace indeed came to the level of Yoda or something.. Would this upset you?

What in the world would Lucas have to do or film to convince people that Dooku and Sidious were beaten in a duel! I don't think any fight is clear enough for most of you. It is for me though.. But I agree, Sidious could probably win in a rematch just like Dooku could. Lightsabers aren't really that predictable but just what are you trying to say with this?

Let's get back to the topic.. Can Anakin beat Mace Windu? You somehow seem to place mace under Dooku and Yoda so are you saying Anakin can do it? I for one think Mace is better than Anakin (and Dooku aswell by the way) so I have made my points for this topic.

Originally posted by Kaithen
Ok i just have to ask you something in sideuos versus mace.

Mace isnt 20 times better then kit fisto in lightsaber combat. And mace wouldnt be able to take out 3 jedi masters in some seconds.

We start in the fight:
Mace is attacking, and sideous shows that he was able to either slay mace with the lightsaber, or give him an electric shower.

As we move over to anakin:
When you see anakin standing and crying, he is thinking on what sideous said. The cool thing is that he hear:
"I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE".
What is cool about this?, well the cool thing is that sideous never says that. He is actully telling anakin telepatic to join him.

Back to the fight:
Sideous is using force lightning. The worste thing is that he would be able to push mace out into the air. And another point is that he use the lightning untill Mace drops one hand, he actully stops using lightning exactly when he lose his guard.
The funny thing is that you would problaby say that he is to weak to use more. But the EVEN more funny thing is that sideous can use lightning right after anakin cuted mace hand of.

Now head to lightning:
Why would lightning make your teeths yellow, why would it make you look older. Then you can say "But it does, you have no proof it doesnt". But why arent Luke transforming into old grandpa, when sideous use his lightning against Luke.

Ok overlord.. im just really tired of you...

Overlord just answer this, before you continue to add shits..

Il answer.

1.) Mace is much better than Fisto. I'll give you that. Reason fisto got owned was because he was in a closed space and his style requires room to outmaneuver. I bet you Mace could take out 3 masters if they stood there like idiots not attacking.

2.) I saw the fight also. Most of the fight mace had the chance to finish him off as well. Reason he dident? He was there to apprehend him.

3.) Proof? Link please.

4.) WTf?

5.) Ok.....no comment on that. Wait.... maybe...
A possible reason Palps looks the way he looks after the lightning is not because of the energy deflecting back at him, but because the lightning is changing the "mask" he was wearing to keep himself safe from suspision. Maybe he as a sith before becoming the supreme chancellor he really did look all that distorted.

@ vious, no thats not controlling anger thats being controlled by anger.

As we move over to anakin:
When you see anakin standing and crying, he is thinking on what sideous said. The cool thing is that he hear:
"I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE".
What is cool about this?, well the cool thing is that sideous never says that. He is actully telling anakin telepatic to join him.

*Just look at the movie, there isnt a link to the movie noobie

Back to the fight:
Sideous is using force lightning. The worste thing is that he would be able to push mace out into the air. And another point is that he use the lightning untill Mace drops one hand, he actully stops using lightning exactly when he lose his guard.
The funny thing is that you would problaby say that he is to weak to use more. But the EVEN more funny thing is that sideous can use lightning right after anakin cuted mace hand of.

*Why would he be able to use lightning again after just waiting 5 seconds or something

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
@ vious, no thats not controlling anger thats being controlled by anger.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Yes, Anakin was pissed off, but, he was able to use that anger to kill the Sand People. Had his anger been controlling him, then he would have made mistakes and got taken down by them.

Originally posted by Kaithen
As we move over to anakin:
When you see anakin standing and crying, he is thinking on what sideous said. The cool thing is that he hear:
"I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE".
What is cool about this?, well the cool thing is that sideous never says that. He is actully telling anakin telepatic to join him.

*Just look at the movie, there isnt a link to the movie noobie

Back to the fight:
Sideous is using force lightning. The worste thing is that he would be able to push mace out into the air. And another point is that he use the lightning untill Mace drops one hand, he actully stops using lightning exactly when he lose his guard.
The funny thing is that you would problaby say that he is to weak to use more. But the EVEN more funny thing is that sideous can use lightning right after anakin cuted mace hand of.

*Why would he be able to use lightning again after just waiting 5 seconds or something

1.) I saw the movie. I hear sidious saying it. It comes out of his mouth. Nothing telepathic there "noobie."

2.) What!? Damn is it me or is anyone else having trouble understanding what he is talking about.

1. Akbar, Kaithen means when Anakin and Padme are looking out the windows from different buildings in Courascant. You can quietly hear Palpatine's voice whisper in his head, but Palpatine is several buildings away. He also says something that he has never said before.... (Not the words that Kaithen said, but something else. Kaithen you got the words mixed up).

2. Here he is talking about when Sidious is using lightning against Mace when Anakin has entered. Exactly before Sidious stops using lightning, Mace gets hit by lightning on his left hand and drops it from the saber. Just at that moment, Sidious stops using lightning. Kaithen means that because Palpatine wasn't really weak, he could have continued firing lightning at that moment, and Mace with one hand would not be able to parry it...

There did that explain it?

Windu..without a doubt.

Originally posted by overlord
Hahaha, the fight started out stupid, they slashed a bit and began to babble again, Anakin just pointed his sword to the ground when Dooku blocked Obi Wan. They talked and went further with apperantly testing each other. (I heard they even used other dueling styles or something but who cares)


Dude. If you want to discuss swordfights with me please get yourself some knowledge about swordfighting instead of simply assuming that swordfighters won't fight serious from the first strike to the last. There is this funny moment in the fight where Anakin gives Dooku a two-handed swing and Obi-Wan is attackin him in the same moment and he blocks them with his blade horizontally above his head while handling his lightsaber one-handed.



Anakin gives Dooku two-handed swings (form V) throughout the entire fight but suddenly he decides to...well...use more two-handed strikes and the very same form and overpowers him ? While we have seen Dooku blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan and once and toss them through the room with his force powers ?

Use some common sense. If Dooku can control Obi-Wan and Anakin at once why would he not be able to control Anakin alone. Because Anakin wasn't fighting serious before ? That's laughable. We see Anakin and Obi-Wan having quite some problems with Asajj Ventress quite close before ROTS when they were fighting serious - why shouldn't they have problems with Dooku who is far more powerful and a far better duellist then Asajj ?



Again: You're talking about three trained warriors here. You don't enter swordfights and "get cocky" after decades of training. You don't go into a fight without fighting seriously. That might happen in some nice sparring session with toy sabers but it doesn't happen in a serious confrontation in the middle of a space-battle in a full scale war.

They were all fighting serious and Dooku took Obi-Wan out of the fight, then he taunted Anakin to use (instead of fight or control) his anger and has Anakin disarming him with a surprise action. That's it. And if Dooku wasn't allowed to kill Anakin (see the ROTS novel and the audio commentary where Lucas mentions that this scene should show that Sith Apprentices can recruit Jedi too), then he simply wasn't able to go all out against Anakin.



No. You don't have because you'd rather cry because of getting your pretty assertions exterminated every single post, right ?



No. You aren't a "dumbass like we all". You are the King of Idiocy here. I'm making things up ? You mean like "Hey. We have three trained warrior entering a serious fight here. First they get cocky, then they try to test their opponent, not fighting serious until one of them decides to wipe the floor with his 2 opponents. And just after this the one opponent left decides that this might be the right moment to use everything he can against his enemy. This always happens in a 2vs1. Nobody fights seriously before the single person managed to take one of the other team out to make the fight at least look fair". That's what you try to tell us ? Uh-hu. This is especially nice against directs statements in the novel and from Lucas in the commentary - but nevermind. You must be right of course.



What ? I did say that I don't believe that Anakin would win against Dooku everytime because Dooku was not using his force powers. Did you ever develop the idea that if Dooku can force choke Obi-Wan out of a duel situation without effort and we've seen Anakin stalemating Obi-Wan in their force push contest on Mustafar that he should be able to do the same thing to Anakin ? No...of course not.
The lightning was just another example.



He did ? Watch Dooku vs Yoda and Dooku vs Anakin and Kenobi in AotC and RotS and then tell me that Mace looked as if he did the more impressive sabering. He and Sidious moved so freaking slow in their fight it's hilarious.



What the...
Dooku took out Obi-Wan with a force TK attack. Dooku > Obi-Wan.
Anakin and Obi-Wan stalemated when trying to use force TK against each other. Anakin = Obi-Wan.
Can that mean that Dooku could do the same to Anakin ? Yes.

The point is that Anakin's force sensitivity means jack shit because he's lacking control and training. He couldn't overcome somebody with a far lesser force sensitivity or potential then Dooku because the guy had 25 years of training advantage. How would he be able to overcome somebody who had 70 years of training advantage and more force powers + aggressive force powers like Dooku in a sheer force contest. Exactly: He can't because he misses the control.



I hope that you aren't losing sleep over the fact that you can't proof Mace Windu is more powerful or a better swordsmen then Dooku. Dooku didn't have any need to develop an own style since his was the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" while Mace style doesn't focus on this one single situation of fighting (lightsaber vs lightsaber) but created a more versatile form.
That doesn't make him stronger in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat - in fact we have seen that he wasn't able to defeat Dooku when he already used this style before. So what do you want ? The apprentice doesn't have to be a lesser skilled lightsaber combatant than his master just because he's the apprentice. See Anakin and Obi-Wan - even in AotC Anakin gave Dooku more trouble than Obi-Wan did before. And another theory getting destroyed. Ups.



Yes. Of course. Because Windu will suddenly completely change the style that he's using for almost 3 decades in 13 years. And we still know that Dooku was able to beat Mace why we have no proof that Mace would be able to defeat Dooku. So what do you want ? Playing the pathetic Dooku hater ?



You go by what ? You go by your own interpretation of the movies lacking any knowledge of swordfights, common sense and combat in general. And if you want to go by the movies Dooku was much more impressive (movement, speed) compared to Mace.



You care as you were starting this pointless argument, correct ?

...continue...



LOL. Come back to me when you have learned to discuss a topic and give me some arguments. Saying "No matter what the in universe facts say, my opinion must be right" is no debating. Sorry to tell you.



I'm saying that you can't use the outcome of fights as they happened in the movie in certain situations with surprise elements (for the people who lost) to determine the outcome of other fights involving those persons with 100 % certainty if you change the situation.

If Mace and Sidious would go and fight in the Senate chamber - Mace might very likely use. If you replace Mace with Yoda in the scene where Mace fought Sidious - Yoda might clearly win this.



Now what ?
I place Anakin under Yoda, Dooku and Mace because he lacks experience, force control and the clear state of mind needed in a battle - hence Mace will beat him.

Originally posted by kamikz
1. Akbar, Kaithen means when Anakin and Padme are looking out the windows from different buildings in Courascant. You can quietly hear Palpatine's voice whisper in his head, but Palpatine is several buildings away. He also says something that he has never said before.... (Not the words that Kaithen said, but something else. Kaithen you got the words mixed up).

2. Here he is talking about when Sidious is using lightning against Mace when Anakin has entered. Exactly before Sidious stops using lightning, Mace gets hit by lightning on his left hand and drops it from the saber. Just at that moment, Sidious stops using lightning. Kaithen means that because Palpatine wasn't really weak, he could have continued firing lightning at that moment, and Mace with one hand would not be able to parry it...

There did that explain it?

1.) He sure did maybe thats the problem then.

2.) Well, you explain it much better than he did. I agree, that Sidious was definetly faking the part with lightning. I dont believe he used all the power he had, but the guy was frying up from all of the reflected energy. He could have died if he dident stop.

Which is why Anakin outdueled and killed Dooku, right? Anakin is placed on their terms in terms of dueling

Mace wins, too much experiance AND doesn't have Dooku's weakness of being old and weak (mace is probably a lot stronger physically than Anakin)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why Anakin outdueled and killed Dooku, right?
But Anakin did not outduel Dooku. He did not cut his hands off while they were engaged in blade to blade combat (as Dooku had done to him). He only cut Dooku's hands off after he grabbed Dooku's arms, immobilizing his lightsaber. That was the point the duel finished. Anakin was about 60 years younger than Dooku, so obviously the physically stronger man. It was when Anakin had physically overpowered Dooku that he then cut off his hands, and then killed him, when he was kneeling on the floor, unable to mount any defence. That does not constitute 'outduelling him', as he did not do so while they were still 'clashing blades'.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
1.) He sure did maybe thats the problem then.

2.) Well, you explain it much better than he did. I agree, that Sidious was definetly faking the part with lightning. I dont believe he used all the power he had, but the guy was frying up from all of the reflected energy. He could have died if he dident stop.


Hmm yeah. But we are talking seconds here, Mace would loose all balance with one hand plus he would only have half of the strenght to hold the lightning. He would be overwhealmed at once. And Sidious really didn't seem wounded at all, the lightning only melted his "mask" as far as I know of, and he didn't seem to get tired or anything. I belive he could have continued for at least 10 seconds.

And Anakin didn't overpower Dooku completely? I guess Mace didn't beat Sidious in combat either since he threw a kick

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Anakin didn't overpower Dooku completely?
Yes, he did physically overpower him Dooku completely. That is not the same however, as outduelling him.

I guess Mace didn't beat Sidious in combat either since he threw a kick
A kick is a blow used in combat, so yes, Mace did beat Palpatine in combat.

No, actually it's using your advantage and style.

Grabbing someone is a combat move, so Dooku was beaten in combat

First, let me say that it is people like you, Pyro Tyrannus, and Rampant Ox that totally make me hate the almighty Count Dooku. You all completely ruin the character with your "Dooku owns alalll`~:~```" campaigns.



Rofl. . .



ROFL!!!!

ROFL!!!!

Wait, wait, wait . . . so, Anakin grabbing Dooku was cheating, but Mace kicking Palpatine in the face wasn't?

LOLOLOL.

This is what you call "double-standards".

Erm . . . no. By YOUR logic, Mace didn't do it fairly. He didn't outmaneuver Palpatine with his weapon - therefore, Mace didn't really win, and who is superior is really inconclusive, because Mace kicked him.

Yup.

Point being? They were slashing around a bit and they just stop attacking suddenly to let Dooku speak. It's not as if they immediately launched everything they got.

Just hear yourself "That's laughable!!" By the way, I don't care about clone war stuff that was made later than the movies. Maybe he couldn't control Anakin because he just couldn't as in he wasn't good enough. (oh! I said it, what a sly devil I am!)


Oh, just hear Obi Wan say "Like whatever dude, sith are our specialty!!", they thought they improved enough to handle Dooku as if their victory was for sure.
And no, they didn't immediately get serious, they began, stopped, talked, went further on playing a bit (this is all doesn't last long) and Dooku punishes the fools. What we then see is Anakin and Dooku going all out. If holding back includes stop focusing on your opponent's actions and minimalizing your defenses then you are right about all of this.
I think it's very heroic that you tell yourself that but you don't really come across convincing here.

Wow! You're like totally right, go celebrate! I tend to cry easily, don't I.
*Laughing the bumm off*

Are you playing games here? All your comments sounds so retarded.. King of idiocy after I state that at least I defend the one who has actually won? Go downstairs and ask your mom if that makes sense.
You keep forgetting that the beginning of the fight were they just get started is over pretty soon, you can prolongue that scene and tell yourself "OMG, he owned those suckers" but I frankly don't care. They mess around and talk a bit in the beginning and that is over soon, get over it.

Wow, that totally debased my response! Now, Dooku and Sidious still didn't use mighty powers to win every time they fought, now did they? Maybe because you have to wait for the right time? No, of course not, those mighty powers are insta-winners.

Impressive as in defeating Darth Sidious. That dumbass ataru fight in AotC wasn't impressive at all, Yoda made such useless moves and it basically didn't look practical or effective at all. Put Mace in that position and he'd hold off the green dwarve aswell.
And go watch ROTS again, it's actually a pretty fast fight until they back off, saberlock and switch to another scene. After we return, we see a lame ass ataru fight with some backflips and wide swings. We don't see much of what happens next (the camera moves in to their faces) but it's probably fast enough again.
Of course you tend to exagurate to what suits your case but I think you are bullshitting me.

Oh yeah! Dooku did major awesome force tk bs so dooku > obi wan, cool! And Anakin lost focus and shit and is force tk anakin = obi! Wow, that means so little that it hurts. Dooku blasted off Obi Wan when he got the oppurtunity, please stop talking about force tk math from now on.
I'm talking reaction skills, not who has the more force powers such as lightning. Dooku could've had more experience and have been a master at some form, Anakin clearly had better reaction skills or whatever you may call it due to his being more in tune with the force. Anakin managed to outmanouver the count!

Woah! Awesome comeback! You hope I don't lose sleep over that you I can't convince you! Well don't worry. I'm saying that the completion of Mace's vaapad was more important than the few new tricks Dooku learned. The movie kind of makes it clear. But what pointless stuff do you have to tell now? Dooku could be better in fighting than Sidious? Well, I don't see a brat just surprising Sidious who defeated multiple jedi masters in a mere matter of seconds.
So no, you don't destroy a theory. I think it's pretty logical that Dooku just never reached the level of Sidious by looking at the movie. Mace however did show that he could keep up with people like Sidious and Yoda.

Why are you arguing so desperately about this anyway? Do you honestly believe that Dooku is much better than what was shown and that Mace isn't as good as was shown in the movie? I don't think you actually can come up with good arguments to support this theory. Sorry, you just don't come across convincing..

Even if I hated Dooku for some strange reason, would that be pathetic? And you don't think fighting with an incomplete form is just not as effective as it could be?

Hahaha!! I lack knowledge of swordfights? You believe opponents always immediately fly off full out in battle against each other! Why am I suddenly the one who is the fool!
But I guess you are just too full of pride to admit that Dooku didn't show impressive victories and that Mace only had one fight shown in the whole saga to look at.
But no, I do go by the movies instead of crazy interpretations. You accuse me of doing the same as you but you are wrong. I've seen a brat outmanouver Dooku who has still only managed to stay alive and I've seen Mace outduel Dooku's teacher.

Uhmm.. No, you got all crazy and came by with enormous explanations for your theories for every sentance I said. I never asked for this much bullshit. This is your life, not mine.

This is what you say when I say that mace perhaps was a quick learner? And that his completion of Vaapad may have been the key to coming near the level of Yoda and Sidious? You sir are a genuine fool.
Pretty cool that you had to state that you were laughing out loud in the air because of this aswell. Maybe you're not one hundred percent..

And I say that if I see Dooku get outmanouvered by Anakin, I say that my regard for Dooku's fighting abilities go a little bit down. And when I see Mace Windu defeat Yoda in a normal fighting surrounding, he goes up for me even though Yoda could've probably done the same thing. Again: What are you trying to say?

Now what!!
And I shift Dooku and Anakin around in wich place of the order you have them because I'm not a hopeless dreamer so then the thread is decided for us two, isn't it?
I don't get why you always have such a hard time explaining your thoughts and shit that you have to use so much text, but I guess that is because english isn't your native toungue or something.. But try in the future to write things down mentally and give a short but powerful presentation of your thoughts because I am stuck explaining stuff to you for a f*cking hour and although you may seem to think this is normal, I think it's a goddamn waste of my time.
Thank you.

Rofl . . .

Overlord, Nai's an exceptional debator - but you shouldn't argue with him about Yoda or Dooku. Those are touchy subjects for him. Hell, this is the guy who argued that Count Dooku was superior to Palpatine in the Force.

Originally posted by overlord
Hahaha!! I lack knowledge of swordfights? You believe opponents always immediately fly off full out in battle against each other! Why am I suddenly the one who is the fool!


No. I said you won't see a team of two people and trained warriors getting cocky and three trained warriors in a 2 vs 1 situation not fighting serious - until one of the pair gets manhandled. That's so stupid that if stupidity hurts you should lie on the ground and cry the entire day.
And especially outright offensive fighters like Anakin wouldn't do that. Obi-Wan maybe. Dooku possibly. But Anakin ?



As it seems you go by the movies only and ignore the EU.

Dooku:
- leveled Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC
- wrecked Obi-Wan in ROTS
- tooled Asajj Ventress twice (force lightning, 10 second swordfight)
- trained Grievous and defeated him several times (and the dude killed how many Jedi ?)
- floored Sora Bulq
- and neither Mace nor Yoda were able to stop him in direct confrontation (although he escaped both times)

Mace:
- outduelled Sidious
- leveled Grievous
- defeated Depa Billaba
- defeated Kar Vastor (at least this wasn't done in melee combat)
- defeated Asajj Ventress
- killed Jango Fett

But of course. Those two can't be equal. Especially since Dooku defeated Jedi Masters and Council Members in lightsaber combat without using the force in any way (which is pretty impressive), was the Order's leading instructor and principal for advanced lightsaber combat and we know that he did beat Mace before.



It's getting hilarious, noob. I know that Mace was a quick learner because I stated it often enough myself. The point is that Dooku still had 30 years of training advantage and was one of two people that were ever able to defeat Mace Windu - because he was an outstanding duellist and force user on his own. As Jocasta Nu said:"He was one of the most brilliant Jedi I've ever had the privilege of knowing."



No...what you keep stating here is that Mace will definetly defeat Dooku in lightsaber combat without having any proof to say so. There is nothing to compare them. We never see them duelling until there is a victor. We never see Mace fight Yoda. We never see Dooku fight Sidious. We never see Mace fight Anakin.
And we can judge them from opponents they both faced (Grievous, Asajj) since Dooku controlled the first and faced Asajj when she was weaker then when Windu faced her. Do you see the problem now ?



Is this really so hard to understand ? You place Anakin above Dooku because he managed to surprise and thereby defeat Dooku once when all other instances say that Dooku was still superior to Anakin.

That's like saying Anakin must be superior to Sidious because he did manage to cut Mace hand off and Sidious didn't. Or he must be superior to Yoda because of that.



Because I have to get them into your brain properly and you seem inable to just read what I'm writing and think two seconds before replying. Of course...I can use four letter words in every sentence and call that "powerful presentation" and think I'm doing a nice job in debating like you do. Not my style. If you don't "waste your time" simply don't read my post. That's so damn easy that even you should be able to figure this out.

@Escape:


Oh come on, Escape. I said that Dooku might have more force mastery (especially light side techniques) for the single reason that he's 20 years older and hat a 70 year Jedi training advantage on Sidious and he was one of the most powerful individuals the order had seen in the last centuries.

Oh by the way. Since you prefer "powerful" and short presentations:

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/0/08/Dookuepisodeiii.jpg

So. Those people aren't fighting serious while Dooku almost easily blocks them both at once with only one hand on his blade ? Nice that you told me...won't have been able to develop such an opinion seeing this picture...

ROTS novel explanation: They held back to trick him at the start.

And oh, come on...Dooku having more force mastery than mr "Embraced the Dark Side from birth?"

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grabbing someone is a combat move, so Dooku was beaten in combat
Yes. He was not however, beaten in a duel, which people seem to insist that he was.

Except he was. Get over it.

Originally posted by Escape81
First, let me say that it is people like you, Pyro Tyrannus, and Rampant Ox that totally make me hate the almighty Count Dooku. You all completely ruin the character with your "Dooku owns alalll`~:~```" campaigns.



Rofl. . .



ROFL!!!!

ROFL!!!!

Wait, wait, wait . . . so, Anakin grabbing Dooku was cheating, but Mace kicking Palpatine in the face wasn't?

LOLOLOL.

This is what you call "double-standards".

Erm . . . no. By YOUR logic, Mace didn't do it fairly. He didn't outmaneuver Palpatine with his weapon - therefore, Mace didn't really win, and who is superior is really inconclusive, because Mace kicked him.

Yup.
I never said that Mace did beat Palpatine fairly, so ROFL at that

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except he was. Get over it.
No. He was not. When Dooku cut Anakin's arm off, they were still fencing. Still 'crossing blades'. When Anakin cut Dooku's hands off, they were not fencing. Re-watch the scene and see for yourself.

No, actually they were fighting and Anakin surprised Dooku...sorry, that's 'smart fighting'. If Mace can throw a kick, Anakin can grab

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually they were fighting
So first they were duelling, but then they were fighting? Re-watch the scene, and accept that Anakin did not beat Dooku through superior fencing technique.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin surprised Dooku
He did indeed. Doesn't make him a superior swordsman though. (which is the point of a duel)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
sorry, that's 'smart fighting'.
Again, still doesn't make him a better swordsman.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If Mace can throw a kick, Anakin can grab
I never said that I approved of Mace kicking Palpatine in the face. Infact, I found Mace's intentions disgusting, as I said in a previous post.

Actually, considering Anakin used his style to overwhelm Dooku, it DOES make him superior

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novel explanation: They held back to trick him at the start.

And oh, come on...Dooku having more force mastery than mr "Embraced the Dark Side from birth?" Yeah, I think it's time to leave Borborad behind in his little world. I hate it when he causes me to spend an hour typing and explaining why he's clinging to desperate thoughts of illusion.
The theory he is trying to convince me of isn't even of much importance to this thread anymore anyway.

But I take comfort of the knowledge that he has spent nights laughing his ass off behind the computer.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novel explanation: They held back to trick him at the start.


a) The movie shows them fighting like they always do.

b) How would they "trick" him by using Ataru and Shi-Cho when they did fight him with Soresu and Djem So before in AotC ? That doesn't make any sense. He already knew what their prefered styles were from their last meeting.



Dooku was trained from birth on too and I was refering to lightside techniques. Can you tell me how Sidious would have more knowledge about that than the guy who spent 70 years in the Jedi temple ?

And I like to point out that Dooku was one of the 3 (!) individuals in the saga able to deflect force lightning with their bare hands (besides Yoda and Sidious).



No. He didn't, Lightsnake. Anakin's style is using two handed powerful slashs and he did defeat Dooku by grapping Dooku's hand (thereby blocking his movement ability) and then cut his hands off. To do that he obviously had to encoporate an unusual movement in his fighting style which is based on two-handed blade swinging.

The same is seen when Mace kicks away Sidious lightsaber. That's improvisation and not part of the normal "fighting system".

And as I said...when they are all on the same level of swordmastery there is no guarantee that individual A will defeat individual B in any situation. If Dooku can take out Obi-Wan as easily as he did in ROTS I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do the same thing with Anakin.

The point is that all people Gillard rated "level 9 duellists" besides Anakin (Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Dooku) have the advantage over Anakin that they have much more experience in swordfights, are far more "controlled" fighters, and outclass him in terms of force mastery. And only because he took out one of them with a surprise action that doesn't mean he can beat any of them - it doesn't even mean that he can beat Dooku everytime he tries to do it.

They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.

Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?

And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...

Sources: Homing Beacon #126: Dueling Jedi and "The making of RotS"

Originally posted by Razielim
They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.

Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?

And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...

Sources: Homing Beacon #126: Dueling Jedi and "The making of RotS" It was Anakin, Mace, Sidious and Yoda that were 9s. And he used Djem So in AotC.

Mace was a 9? Makes sense.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, considering Anakin used his style to overwhelm Dooku, it DOES make him superior
He did not use his style of fencing to overwhelm Dooku, he physically grabbed him That is not outduelling someone, and does not make them superior, it just means they are physically stronger.
Let's put it another way.
Would you expect a guy in his 80s to be able to successfully physically grapple and fight with a guy in his early 20s? Yes or No.

Since when was it said what forms and styles Anakin and Obi-wan were using against Dooku in AOTC? Anakin had become a Djem So master, fine as any Dooku had ever seen, according to Dooku's own POV.

Ok, yeah...Sidious's only been able to learn...everything Dooku did, had his own holocrons...Dooku is only sixteen years older than Sidious and age really doesn't have bearing. Dooku isn't stronger than Sidious, nor is his mastery of the Force great. Dooku knew it himself, the case is closed there.

Once more, this is different than Dooku incorporating LIGHTNING BLASTS in his style how? Djem So is supposed to contain powerful vicious swings so Anakin incorporating that makes him a poor duelist how?

And duels to the death? They don't HAVE fighting systems. yous ee an opportunity, you take it. Fair fights in those cases don't exist. You lose because your opponent did something you didn't expect and put you at a disadvantage? Oh, gee, he MUST be inferior.

And Dooku beat Obi-wan because he was well versed in defeating Soresu and knew Obi-wan's style...Anakin actually BEAT Dooku; And ok, then Sidious can defeat Mace without a 'surprise action.'

Originally posted by Razielim
They move quite slow, actually. When Anakin gets pissed he moves alot faster than he did before.
Yes, Anakin did move a lot faster, but, Dooku was still able to block all his blows.

Originally posted by Razielim
Didn't Anakin use Shii-Cho in AotC?
Possibly. It's hard to distinguish from Djem-So unless there is actual blaster deflection involved.

Originally posted by Razielim

And I think only Anakin, Sidious and Yoda are 9s, while Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan were 8s. He also claimed there was an enormous difference between 8 and 9...

Problem with that is that Anakin was not able to beat Dooku while dueling (although he was better able to fight Dooku than Obi-Wan was), where Dooku was able to beat Anakin while duelling.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Since when was it said what forms and styles Anakin and Obi-wan were using against Dooku in AOTC? Anakin had become a Djem So master, fine as any Dooku had ever seen, according to Dooku's own POV.

Ok, yeah...Sidious's only been able to learn...everything Dooku did, had his own holocrons...Dooku is only sixteen years older than Sidious and age really doesn't have bearing. Dooku isn't stronger than Sidious, nor is his mastery of the Force great. Dooku knew it himself, the case is closed there.

Once more, this is different than Dooku incorporating LIGHTNING BLASTS in his style how? Djem So is supposed to contain powerful vicious swings so Anakin incorporating that makes him a poor duelist how?

And duels to the death? They don't HAVE fighting systems. yous ee an opportunity, you take it. Fair fights in those cases don't exist. You lose because your opponent did something you didn't expect and put you at a disadvantage? Oh, gee, he MUST be inferior.

And Dooku beat Obi-wan because he was well versed in defeating Soresu and knew Obi-wan's style...Anakin actually BEAT Dooku; And ok, then Sidious can defeat Mace without a 'surprise action.'
Is that actually directed at me?

The thing I wonder is, how much stronger is Anakin than Dooku? Obi and Anakin attacked him at the same time and he held up one hand and parried both their strikes, Anakin holding with two and Obi with one. That's pretty strong as well.... So saying he lost only because he has less physical strenght is weird if I may say so.....

Originally posted by kamikz
The thing I wonder is, how much stronger is Anakin than Dooku?
Who knows. How much stronger would you expect a guy in his early 20s to be copared to an old man in his 80s?

Originally posted by kamikz
TObi and Anakin attacked him at the same time and he held up one hand and parried both their strikes, Anakin holding with two and Obi with one. That's pretty strong as well....
It is, but, technique also plays a part there.

Originally posted by kamikz
So saying he lost only because he has less physical strenght is weird if I may say so.....
I can see what you're saying, but, it's a different kind of physical strength to resist being grabbed, to having the physical strength (plus the technique) to counter two blades (by using the momentum of one's own blade to counteract the momentum of the opponent's blades. When Dooku was grabbed, he had neither the momentum, nor posture to generate leverage to break Anakin's grip)

You mean it is a technique to parry hold your sword with one hand and still overpower two persons when one is holding with two hands? Ok....


Dooku also kicked Anakin so hard that he flew far away and got knocked into a wall, it even took a long time for him to get up. Anakin delivered a kick when Dooku was not prepared but Dooku still got balance, and he was even with Anakin in the saber lock as well. Of course Anakin would be stronger than him if you only measure "20 year old vs 80 year old". But when you have the force it is completly different, Dooku could simply power himself with the force....

Honestly, I don't see anyone countering a grab by the arms, Dooku only had about a second to react too. Anakin outwitted him...

Originally posted by kamikz
You mean it is a technique to parry hold your sword with one hand and still overpower two persons when one is holding with two hands? Ok....
Sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but if I understand you properly, blocking an overhead attack from two attackers with a one-handed grip on a sword involves technique, not just physical strength.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku also kicked Anakin so hard that he flew far away and got knocked into a wall, it even took a long time for him to get up. Anakin delivered a kick when Dooku was not prepared but Dooku still got balance, and he was even with Anakin in the saber lock as well.
When you look at the set detail and distances, Anakin really didn't 'fly far' Infact, if you check the scene, Anakin actually staggers back slightly before Dooku even kicks him... I suspect that Dooku used the Force to unbalance Anakin (possibly also lift him slightly) to make his kick more effective, but, in all honesty, Anakin didn't go more than a few feet, it's only the change of camera angles that makes it seem like he 'went flying'. As for the time it took him to get up again, you can actually see Anakin smack his head on the wall, so he was most likely lightly stunned. Dooku was not even with Anakin in his saberlock (which relies on physical strength rather than technique), as it was possible to hear the strain in his voice when he said he could sense Anakin's fear.

Originally posted by kamikz

Honestly, I don't see anyone countering a grab by the arms, Dooku only had about a second to react too. Anakin outwitted him...
Absolutely. That doesn't mean Anakin was a better swordsman though, because he did not beat Dooku while they were duelling. Dooku however, had beaten Anakin while they were duelling.

Blocks of any sort involve technique AND physical strength, I would think. Have you ever tried holding your arm straight while two people are pushing down on it? Incredibly hard if you've got wimpy arms.

I don't see Dooku lifting Anakin up, do you? He kicked him HARD, Anakin flew back and hit his head on the wall.

If Dooku had beaten Anakin, Anakin would be on the ground. Anakin was losing the first part of the duel, until Dooku took down Kenobi, though, if that's what you mean.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but if I understand you properly, blocking an overhead attack from two attackers with a one-handed grip on a sword involves technique, not just physical strength.


When you look at the set detail and distances, Anakin really didn't 'fly far' Infact, if you check the scene, Anakin actually staggers back slightly before Dooku even kicks him... I suspect that Dooku used the Force to unbalance Anakin (possibly also lift him slightly) to make his kick more effective, but, in all honesty, Anakin didn't go more than a few feet, it's only the change of camera angles that makes it seem like he 'went flying'. As for the time it took him to get up again, you can actually see Anakin smack his head on the wall, so he was most likely lightly stunned. Dooku was not even with Anakin in his saberlock (which relies on physical strength rather than technique), as it was possible to hear the strain in his voice when he said he could sense Anakin's fear.


Absolutely. That doesn't mean Anakin was a better swordsman though, because he did not beat Dooku while they were duelling. Dooku however, had beaten Anakin while they were duelling.


So could you tell me exactly how the technique is done and how it doesn't require exceptional physical strenght?

Oh common I'm watching the scene right now, Anakin flies as hell. How do you post clips here, I'll show you....
If he does it before it is probably just an error in the timing, they can't do everything right and it's not like he does it for real. I've seen plenty of films where a person reacts about 1/2 a second before a punch. Is it a shockwave of a punch????
Besides, Anakin flew inside the wall, that's pretty far for a kick....


Not in a saber lock? Missed the scene where Dooku tells Anakin about his fear and hate?

I don't argue about the swordfight, just about Dooku's physical strenght. I'm not even in on that part, I just said that I don't think anyone would be able to get out of such a grip in a second or two....

Originally posted by kamikz
So could you tell me exactly how the technique is done and how it doesn't require exceptional physical strenght?
As simply as possible, you swing your blade not into position, but with the intention of continuing the swing, so that the force of your swing cancels the momentum of the incoming blades (although it does not continue, but stops.)

Originally posted by kamikz

Oh common I'm watching the scene right now, Anakin flies as hell. How do you post clips here, I'll show you....
As am I, I have the DVD in my player as we speak. Anakin does not fly anywhere near as far as Obi-Wan was thrown. Yes, he was in the air when he flies into shot, but, Dooku was standing in the middle of the door when he kicked him, so the most Anakin flew was maybe a few feet (and slid the rest when he hit the wall)

Originally posted by kamikz

If he does it before it is probably just an error in the timing, they can't do everything right and it's not like he does it for real. I've seen plenty of films where a person reacts about 1/2 a second before a punch. Is it a shockwave of a punch????
Sorry, but given the level of digital manipulation in RotS, I don't think that such a 'mistake' would occur, and if Anakin staggered, it was for a reason (ie Force intervention)

Originally posted by kamikz
Not in a saber lock? Missed the scene where Dooku tells Anakin about his fear and hate?
I might have been unclear, my apologies. What I meant, was they were not physically evenly balanced, and that Dooku was straining (which is clear in his voice)

Originally posted by kamikz
I don't argue about the swordfight, just about Dooku's physical strenght. I'm not even in on that part, I just said that I don't think anyone would be able to get out of such a grip in a second or two....
I think that someone close to Anakin's age and strength might have been able to wrestle their way clear, but Dooku was clearly unable to do that due to his age.

Eh, Anakin still won the fight. There's alot more to fights than saber dueling.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
As simply as possible, you swing your blade not into position, but with the intention of continuing the swing, so that the force of your swing cancels the momentum of the incoming blades (although it does not continue, but stops.)


As am I, I have the DVD in my player as we speak. Anakin does not fly anywhere near as far as Obi-Wan was thrown. Yes, he was in the air when he flies into shot, but, Dooku was standing in the middle of the door when he kicked him, so the most Anakin flew was maybe a few feet (and slid the rest when he hit the wall)


Sorry, but given the level of digital manipulation in RotS, I don't think that such a 'mistake' would occur, and if Anakin staggered, it was for a reason (ie Force intervention)


I might have been unclear, my apologies. What I meant, was they were not physically evenly balanced, and that Dooku was straining (which is clear in his voice)


I think that someone close to Anakin's age and strength might have been able to wrestle their way clear, but Dooku was clearly unable to do that due to his age.

English is not my native language, so I have a hard time figuring out what you say here, but here's my guess. If you mean that he stops their progress of attacking by striking, then yes. But they are still pushing against him and he is holding up, Anakin is clearly trying to push his sword backwards but Dooku doesn't budge an inch....


How do you post pictures and clips?

Anakin flies away really high, watch the scene again, Anakin flies unusually high for just a kick. Not only backwards, but upwards as well....

Anakin is stumbling backwards at first yes. I think that is because Dooku had just blocked his strike, or maybe he did something with the force, I don't know, but the thing is that he does not send Anakin away with the force afterwards, he kicks him. Anakin was just about to strike him when he kicked him....

Anakin was straning as well, look at his facial expression. He is having as hard time as Dooku. And the fact that Dooku is the one talking only talks for his strenght, cause he is still able to talk. (And that pretty much takes away your focus).

Not in 1-2 seconds. Especially not if you are not prepared...

So . . . what you're saying is, an average ten year old girl, if she uses the proper technique, can block an overhanded attack by . . . Mr. T? The Rock? Michael Clarke Duncan?

Vious you are a complete idiot.