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The Protoss battlegroup comprises of:

1 carrier (with 8 vulture droids called Interceptors)
24 Scouts

And, on the other side, the Venator that destroyed the Invisible Hand.

Both of these are fighting above Hiigara.

(A note about the Protoss Federation: this is what the Conclave will become after the destruction of the Overmind and the evacuation of Aiur.)

I say the Venator Class Star Destroyer considering it had that beam canon thingy you saw when Obi and Ani were flying towards the Invisible Hand that destroyed a Separatist Cruiser in a single blast.

There are seven settings on these guns: the first is often used against ships as large as Scouts or the Slave 1, but I believe the shot that destroyed the Separatist ship (not a cruiser; two class possibilities: the Munificient-class frigate or the Recusant-class light destroyer) was a max-setting shot of these. Maybe the seventh-setting shot will make short work of the carrier, but its vulture droids will strike at these guns.

Don't forget that the Protoss carrier is about as long as a Nebulon-B frigate in ROTJ and the Scout's antimatter missiles (very much like the ST quantum torpedoes) were designed to hit smaller targets, like Anakin's fighter in ROTS. If they have as much chance to hit as do the buzz missiles (the missiles that contained buzz droids) against a X-Wing or a Tri-Fighter, then they would most certainly hit the Venator, who don't have much in the way of particle shielding. In addition, the Scouts' missiles outrange the Venators' heaviest guns six to one (3,000 kms compared to 500 kms for the 8 heavy guns). Though the photon cannons are ranged about 1,000 kms.

The only chance of the Protoss Federation is that their vulture droids destroy the guns or the Scouts' photon cannons (about the same yields as do the Millenium Falcon's quad gun) hit them. The carrier certainly is more maneuverable than Separatist capital ships, I don't know if it can outrun a heavy turbolaser shot. The Scouts are as maneuverable as the Slave 1 manned by Jango in AOTC. Knowing that Scouts' dogfight speeds are about 20 km/s, can a Venator's guns hit a target that fast?

...the Scout's antimatter missiles (very much like the ST quantum torpedoes) were designed to hit smaller targets, like Anakin's fighter in ROTS. If they have as much chance to hit as do the buzz missiles (the missiles that contained buzz droids) against a X-Wing or a Tri-Fighter, then they would most certainly hit the Venator, who don't have much in the way of particle shielding.If the Scout's missiles operate on the same technology as Star Trek Quantum Torpedoes (11 dimensional continuum twist tech) and have even a fraction of the destructive load of QTs, then the Venator class SD is toast. I've never observed the effects of Scout antimatter missiles, so I'm willing to bet they aren't the same thing as Quantum Torpedoes. Antimatter still packs an amazing wallop, and I'd take antimatter weapons over the fusion warheads and particle beams favored by the Seperatists.

My vote is with the Protoss.

Their homing technology certainly is not. I don't know, honestly, the yields of AM missiles, but it's somewhere 5 and 100 megatons. The biggest gun on a Venator has a 4.8 megaton yield (20,000 terajoules) on its max setting. I never heard of Protoss developing 11-dimensional continuum twist tech. A pair of them can toast a Venator (they are fired by pairs) shields down. I believe the shields capacity of the Venator is somewhere about 100-300 PJ (24-72 megatons) (a standard ISD has 450 PJ). Assuming even 50 megatons for each, the shields-up Venator is toast, shields down, even 475 kilotons can take it out.

Granted, a Gantrithor-class carrier shields can't withstand 20 PJ, but this is due to volume. It's about 20-30 times less voluminous than a Venator, so divide even 300 PJ per 20 and you're not going to 20 PJ.

Yeah right...

There are about 300 rounds of anti-matter missiles, about as big as modern-day 155 mm shells, in each Scout, It means 150 shots from each because they're fired in pairs. To toast the Venator, it requires (assuming a 475-kiloton yield for each) two to four volleys, even shields up.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Their homing technology certainly is not. I don't know, honestly, the yields of AM missiles, but it's somewhere 5 and 100 megatons. The biggest gun on a Venator has a 4.8 megaton yield (20,000 terajoules) on its max setting. I never heard of Protoss developing 11-dimensional continuum twist tech. A pair of them can toast a Venator (they are fired by pairs) shields down. I believe the shields capacity of the Venator is somewhere about 100-300 PJ (24-72 megatons) (a standard ISD has 450 PJ). Assuming even 50 megatons for each, the shields-up Venator is toast, shields down, even 475 kilotons can take it out.

Granted, a Gantrithor-class carrier shields can't withstand 20 PJ, but this is due to volume. It's about 20-30 times less voluminous than a Venator, so divide even 300 PJ per 20 and you're not going to 20 PJ. You've used a lot of Expanded Universe data there. The video games are part of the EU, so I guess I'll take your word for it! Where did you get your data on the Protoss? Is there some kind of Starcraft technical manual?

You 2 better be straight A students.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
You 2 better be straight A students. Just graduated with an MA in cinema television. Does it show?

I used to be a huge sci-fi fan. I used to chug ST and SW stuff like cheap saki.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
You've used a lot of Expanded Universe data there. The video games are part of the EU, so I guess I'll take your word for it! Where did you get your data on the Protoss? Is there some kind of Starcraft technical manual?

The 450 PJ figure for an ISD may be taken away from the EU but canonically, an ISD trench turbolaser has 250 TJ of yield, since I believe(d) that either the asteroid was fragmented and the bolt lost some energy in flight or the laser had 100% efficiency.

According to the ROTS novel, it says that turbolaser shots fired from Venators could vaporize small cities. I heard somewhere that to do so, it requires firepower in the megaton magnitude (one-digit, though). If the shields of the Venators have lesser capacity than Imperators', this is only due to the volume. The ROTS technical manual clearly said that the 8 big guns (don't remember the model, though) have seven settings and 20,000 TJ may fit the single-megaton digit figure (1 megaton is roughly equal to 4,180 TJ).

As for Starcraft, I never heard of technical books, but I may project to write one.



I am a straight A high school student from Quebec, where they call it secondary IV (roughly equal to U.S. 10th grade).

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
The 450 PJ figure for an ISD may be taken away from the EU but canonically, an ISD trench turbolaser has 250 TJ of yield, since I believe(d) that either the asteroid was fragmented and the bolt lost some energy in flight or the laser had 100% efficiency.

According to the ROTS novel, it says that turbolaser shots fired from Venators could vaporize small cities. I heard somewhere that to do so, it requires firepower in the megaton magnitude (one-digit, though). If the shields of the Venators have lesser capacity than Imperators', this is only due to the volume. The ROTS technical manual clearly said that the 8 big guns (don't remember the model, though) have seven settings and 20,000 TJ may fit the single-megaton digit figure (1 megaton is roughly equal to 4,180 TJ).

I am a straight A high school student from Quebec, where they call it secondary IV (roughly equal to U.S. 10th grade). Good for you! Keep at it.

About the yield quantifications (and sorry to all those who are not hard-core enough to enjoy Sci-fi number crunching), are those from stated sources (novels, movies, scripts) or estimations based on observed effects (TESB ISD destroys an asteroid)? In the ROTS novel, did it say that the Venators could destroy cities with a single blast or a volley?

Originally posted by Acrosurge
Good for you! Keep at it.

About the yield quantifications (and sorry to all those who are not hard-core enough to enjoy Sci-fi number crunching), are those from stated sources (novels, movies, scripts) or estimations based on observed effects (TESB ISD destroys an asteroid)? In the ROTS novel, did it say that the Venators could destroy cities with a single blast or a volley?

Single blasts, as per this passage of the ROTS novel:



But I believe 8 vulture droids are too few for a Gantrithor-class carrier (who has no shipboard weapons to speak of). There may have been as many as 20.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
The Protoss battlegroup comprises of:

1 carrier (with 8 vulture droids called Interceptors)
24 Scouts

And, on the other side, the Venator that destroyed the Invisible Hand.

Both of these are fighting above Hiigara.

(A note about the Protoss Federation: this is what the Conclave will become after the destruction of the Overmind and the evacuation of Aiur.)
The venator would probably take a carrier or two down, but the shields would be able to take crapload of damage first. The scouts are pretty hard to hit and they're equipped with antimatter rockets, a pretty big factor; it twists space itself.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Single blasts, as per this passage of the ROTS novel... But I believe 8 vulture droids are too few for a Gantrithor-class carrier (who has no shipboard weapons to speak of). There may have been as many as 20. Makes sense. Thanks for the info

That crapload of damage is between 24 and 75 megatons, as I said earlier. If the Carrier is shot down by a single intensity-7 setting from a dorsal turbolaser of the Venator. True, the trench turbolasers of the Venator would have a hard time hitting the Scouts or the vulture droids, but if they do, they're done to shreds.

The antimatter rockets don't actually twists space; they do distort matter, however. Matter distortion leads to the possible 475-kiloton yields each of them carry. The pair of them can do a lot more damage than the fusion missiles of the Millenium Falcon; Protoss Scouts, despite being designed long before Aiur was overran (in the early days of the Conclave, correct me if I'm wrong), still have a major role in the Protoss Federation order of battle. The Republic's best counter-attack units against Scouts are fighters or YT-1300s, but none of them have been loaded in the Venator.

Possible conclusion: the Venator would win if it had 40-60 fighters or more (out of a possible 400) but if the Venator is empty, then Protoss all the way. Because the yields of the dual photon cannons are about 100 GJ each tube, the Scouts' shields (as per The Fury of the Xel'Naga; a Brood War cinematic who told me a lot about the Scouts' actual capabilities) withstood at least one shot of 16 GJ coming from the Mutalisk. However, I assume they could resist ten or twenty shots of 100 GJ (sorry if I'm basing that estimate from game mechanics). The ARC-170's pilots would only need to land several shots, as though they were destroying Slave 1s.

Scouts are about as maneuverable as Jango-manned Slave 1 (AOTC). ARC-170s laser cannon yields are the same as X-Wings' (16 GJ per shot).

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
The antimatter rockets don't actually twists space; they do distort matter, however. Matter distortion leads to the possible 475-kiloton yields each of them carry. The pair of them can do a lot more damage than the fusion missiles of the Millenium Falcon. Okay, this fight is looking less one-sided. So, Protoss antimatter rockets aren't actually the matter/antimatter warheads I was thinking of; they distort the matter of their contact target for destructive effect. Even a primitive matter/antimatter warhead could deliver a 20 megaton yield, which would rock the Venator even with its shields up, according to the figures you've provided. 20 megatons is a far cry from 475 kilotons of the Protoss rockets, however. Without overwhelming offensive or defensive power, the fight will come to a fighter engagement after all.

I think I still favor the Protoss, due to range.

In my opinion, the Venator would concentrate the majority of it's fire upon the Carrier; if its crew are aware of the fact that the Vultures (interceptors) are AI controlled by the carrier.

The lack of particle shielding on the Venator would cause it to suffer incalculable damage to the outer hull, even internal damage if the scouts concentrate their fire.

In a likely battle, the Carrier would be crippled intensely if not destroyed with quite the number of scouts downed...

The Vennator would have little chance of survival as all Protoss vessels... heck even their infantry have outstanding plasma shielding!

My vote is all upon the Protoss for a minor victory (heavy casualties but enemy destroyed or completely incapacitated) even with the Venator caught on a lucky day!

I also think that Acrosurge's last point is invaluable in this discussion, adept fighter deployment would be the deciding factor in this bout, the protoss are masters of Interceptor combat and the scouts are already deployed and extremely menuverable

"En Tauro Adun, Brave sons of Auir..." Judicator Aldaris, shortly before the destruction of the first Zerg Overmind.

Minor victory, maybe, but the rules of the forum are such that the dogfighting engagement is only a what if option. Granted, in boarding actions, they would win, with droideka-style shields and lightsabers (in the case of Zealots and Dark Templars) or otherwise heavy-caliber plasma weapons, but Scouts are pretty hard to hit even with the light turbolasers (250 TJ yield). If light turbolasers in ANH didn't succeed to even hit a X-Wing (whose dogfight speeds are much slower than 20 km/s), then imagine even computer-controlled turbolasers hitting a Scout flying at 20 km/s, firing their photon cannons upon the guns of the Venator.

If they were to use the heavy turbolasers, maybe two or four intensity-7 shots (20,000 TJ each) can destroy the Carrier (assuming it isn't flying at its top sublight speed, which is 10 km/s). I don't know if ARC-170s or V-Wings can even think of flying at 10 km/s. If they can, they are a match for the Scouts.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Minor victory, maybe, but the rules of the forum are such that the dogfighting engagement is only a what if option. Granted, in boarding actions, they would win, with droideka-style shields and lightsabers (in the case of Zealots and Dark Templars) or otherwise heavy-caliber plasma weapons, but Scouts are pretty hard to hit even with the light turbolasers (250 TJ yield). If light turbolasers in ANH didn't succeed to even hit a X-Wing (whose dogfight speeds are much slower than 20 km/s), then imagine even computer-controlled turbolasers hitting a Scout flying at 20 km/s, firing their photon cannons upon the guns of the Venator.

If they were to use the heavy turbolasers, maybe two or four intensity-7 shots (20,000 TJ each) can destroy the Carrier (assuming it isn't flying at its top sublight speed, which is 10 km/s). I don't know if ARC-170s or V-Wings can even think of flying at 10 km/s. If they can, they are a match for the Scouts. If light turbolasers have trouble hitting targets manuevering at 20 km/s, then I think it stands to reason that a Venator's heavy turbolasers will have difficulty hitting a Carrier moving 10 km/s. This seems significantly faster than the capital ships Venator usually engage.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
If light turbolasers have trouble hitting targets manuevering at 20 km/s, then I think it stands to reason that a Venator's heavy turbolasers will have difficulty hitting a Carrier moving 10 km/s. This seems significantly faster than the capital ships Venator usually engage.

How fast are they? All ships in the game (at least according to the game mechanics) are capable of atmospheric extraction. The top sublight speed of Venators are about 10 km/s as well (how could Yoda's Venator fly from the surface of Coruscant to the surface of Kashyyyk without going fast enough to go out of the gravity well?)

How fast are ARC-170s?

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
How fast are they? All ships in the game (at least according to the game mechanics) are capable of atmospheric extraction. The top sublight speed of Venators are about 10 km/s as well (how could Yoda's Venator fly from the surface of Coruscant to the surface of Kashyyyk without going fast enough to go out of the gravity well?)

How fast are ARC-170s? I dunno. I thought I was using your numbers for ship speeds, but I must have misread something. Wheeee!

Still going with the Scouts based on maneuverability, firepower, and range.

Maybe if we magnify the ISD figure (from which I estimated the Venator's shield capacity) by five (because the first method was assuming I used one shot of trench guns per second during 30 minutes) then it would give (5*1800*250TJ=2,250,000 TJ) then the Venator's shields are between 500-1500 PJ (119,61-358,85 megatons). It would require more volleys, assuming a 475-kiloton rocket, but the Protoss still have a chance.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Maybe if we magnify the ISD figure (from which I estimated the Venator's shield capacity) by five (because the first method was assuming I used one shot of trench guns per second during 30 minutes) then it would give (5*1800*250TJ=2,250,000 TJ) then the Venator's shields are between 500-1500 PJ (119,61-358,85 megatons). It would require more volleys, assuming a 475-kiloton rocket, but the Protoss still have a chance. Do what you like, however, chances are that the Venator's shields are going to be significantly less powerful than an ISD. Venators are an older version of an Imperial Class SD, correct?

Correct. I know Venators have less powerful shields, but I assumed so only because of volume. Venators are 1,137 meters long and Imperators are 1,600 meters long (if not contradicted by the movies) and have the same general outlines (though basic examination would determine that they have significantly different volume, Imperators being more voluminous, don't know by how much)

Anyway, the battle takes place in open space, in Hiigara's high orbit. In high orbit, you don't need to fly at 10 km/s to fight accurately. And 10 km/s is too fast to make Interceptors take off.

Sorry if I used game mechanics again. Carriers' shields can withstand eighteen rockets. They can withstand 18*475 KT = 8,550 KT (2 shots at setting-7 from the heavy turbolaser)

Link to fan fiction

I finally started a story about the Galactic Empire invading Protoss federation space.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Link to fan fiction

I finally started a story about the Galactic Empire invading Protoss federation space. Finally? Have you been thinking about this for a while? I've heard of the Empire vs the United Federation of Planets, or Star Wars vs Babylon 5, but the Empire vs the Protoss is new to me.

Before I started the entire Starcraft vs. Star Trek and Starcraft vs. Star Wars thing, I was in the Star Trek vs. Star Wars circuit in the pro-Trek side, but I didn't have many wins.

The next move may be Zerg vs. CIS. I already did a thread about Dark Templars vs. Sith, called Zeratul vs. Bastila Shan.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I was in the Star Trek vs. Star Wars circuit in the pro-Trek side, but I didn't have many wins. That's a shame. ST tech rules SW's tech. SW only has greater numbers. Are you familiar with this site?

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html

It's a great resource and highly detailed.

But I did debate alongside the creator of that site. The foes were rabid Warsies, and quite rabid at that. One may compare the pro-Trek and the pro-Wars debaters to radiation. The pro-Trek are like alpha rays, slightly positive (they are lightly biased), the pro-Wars are like beta rays, massively negative (they are heavily biased). Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
But I did debate alongside the creator of that site. The foes were rabid Warsies, and quite rabid at that. One may compare the pro-Trek and the pro-Wars debaters to radiation. The pro-Trek are like alpha rays, slightly positive (they are lightly biased), the pro-Wars are like beta rays, massively negative (they are heavily biased). Correct me if I'm wrong, please. Wrong? Dude, you're like my new hero!

I never saw anyone else debate here about Protoss vs. Star Wars. I don't know why, Starcraft is a sci-fi game and Star Wars is a sci-fi movie. They can fit together in a debate.

What would you like help with in regards to your SW vs. SC story as im a Huge fan of both... (though mainly Starcraft... Entaro Adun, Entaro Tassadar, though isn't Aldaris 'extinct'?)

This is set between the Overmind's death and Aldaris' demise (in the SC storyline).