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If i felt this way and didnt want to tell anyone then why would we tell you here?...and um science cant prove everything...if we wanted to go with the crowd wouldnt it be more logical to go with the majority of the world the NON christians!?! dude we are singled out and made fun of.

Originally posted by stop_sign
If i felt this way and didnt want to tell anyone then why would we tell you here?...and um science cant prove everything...if we wanted to go with the crowd wouldnt it be more logical to go with the majority of the world the NON christians!?! dude we are singled out and made fun of.


You are in the majority; atheists hate Christians only because of how some of Christians treat them. I see it all the time, some atheist comes out and says there is no god, then a bunch of Christians jump on their case and make as if they were stupid.

I want people to talk about, not flame people.

I would imagine that many people are Christians out of fear, just my opinion, of course. We'll see how many Christians who post here are believers out of fear.

Not all atheists hate.

But I think there are a lot of Christians who are Christian more out of habit, or social conditioning then fear. For example, back in my high school days, living out of town, I caught the bus. It collected for 5 different schools (two public schools, a private one, a primary one and a religious one.) Now the religious one was a school that taught the very small community of Plinith Brethren (the branch of Christianity I like the least.)

Now, these kids, kids of very strict religious parents, where some of the least religious people I knew. Rebellious, juvenile, over sexed, swearing like one eyed carpenters and all that - except when their parents were around, in which case they were perfectly behaved and role models for the religious sect. Now, fear might come into it at this stage. But the thing is, very, very few leave it. Despite spending so much of their early life complaining about it and talking about a future outside the religion. They start off like that, and then evolve into perfect members of their religious community, they marry only within the religion and do all that's expected of them by their parents, even when they are legally free to do what they want.

And there are plenty of Christians I have known who when asked why they are Christian they respond "well, that's what my parents were" - they aren't inherently religious, but they go through the motions, not so much out of fear, but habit.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Not all atheists hate.

But I think there are a lot of Christians who are Christian more out of habit, or social conditioning then fear. For example, back in my high school days, living out of town, I caught the bus. It collected for 5 different schools (two public schools, a private one, a primary one and a religious one.) Now the religious one was a school that taught the very small community of Plinith Brethren (the branch of Christianity I like the least.)

Now, these kids, kids of very strict religious parents, where some of the least religious people I knew. Rebellious, juvenile, over sexed, swearing like one eyed carpenters and all that - except when their parents were around, in which case they were perfectly behaved and role models for the religious sect. Now, fear might come into it at this stage. But the thing is, very, very few leave it. Despite spending so much of their early life complaining about it and talking about a future outside the religion. They start off like that, and then evolve into perfect members of their religious community, they marry only within the religion and do all that's expected of them by their parents, even when they are legally free to do what they want.

And there are plenty of Christians I have known who when asked why they are Christian they respond "well, that's what my parents were" - they aren't inherently religious, but they go through the motions, not so much out of fear, but habit.

First off, about the atheists hating, I was being general and mostly about this forum.

I was raised just like those kids you speak of and I say the hypocrisy, and guess what, they don't change when they grow up, they just know how to hide it better. I have seen the most evil people in the world, and they were Christians.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have seen the most evil people in the world, and they were Christians.

***You can't see straight if you're filled with hate***

Originally posted by Echuu
***You can't see straight if you're filled with hate***

I know that there are good people who are Christian, and back then I only saw the evil people, so, I was blind, but now I know better.

Are you a Christian because of fear?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know that there are good people who are Christian, and back then I only saw the evil people, so, I was blind, but now I know better.

Are you a Christian because of fear?

Excellent


Absolutely not. I am a Christian because of the love of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Echuu
Excellent


Absolutely not. I am a Christian because of the love of Jesus Christ.

Good, now get out of here, kid.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
First off, about the atheists hating, I was being general and mostly about this forum.

I was raised just like those kids you speak of and I say the hypocrisy, and guess what, they don't change when they grow up, they just know how to hide it better. I have seen the most evil people in the world, and they were Christians.

About the atheists hating thing - most atheists do NOT hate Christians. Rather, they dislike Christianity itself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good, now get out of here, kid.

I feel many people are Christians out of fear. What if they were to leave the faith and be wrong? Many won't even give it a 2nd thought. Some know some truths about also, but still won't leave the faith feeling that if the faith is untrue just like other myths, they'd have a nervous break down...honest to god truth!...Can you imagine finally finding out you've been living a lie your whole life?.....People can't and won't handle that. Though I also know many generally Catholics that just go through the motions of communions and confirmations and feel they're set anyway. Because it's mostly all ritual, they're guaranteed their place in heaven.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I feel many people are Christians out of fear. What if they were to leave the faith and be wrong? Many won't even give it a 2nd thought. Some know some truths about also, but still won't leave the faith feeling that if the faith is untrue just like other myths, they'd have a nervous break down...honest to god truth!...Can you imagine finally finding out you've been living a lie your whole life?.....People can't and won't handle that. Though I also know many generally Catholics that just go through the motions of communions and confirmations and feel they're set anyway. Because it's mostly all ritual, they're guaranteed their place in heaven.

Imagine that! sounds like my life story.

They could become a Buddhist.

Yeah, same here. I'm a Christian because I love the Lord. Nothing about fear, there isn't anything really to be afraid of.

Originally posted by RoguePw25
Yeah, same here. I'm a Christian because I love the Lord. Nothing about fear, there isn't anything really to be afraid of.

So you are not afraid of going to hell. What if you are not in the right church?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So you are not afraid of going to hell. What if you are not in the right church?

No I'm not afraid of going to hell, because I know that I'm not. And it's about about being in the "right" church. As long as you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) and therefore, there is not need to worry. You're saved.

Originally posted by RoguePw25
No I'm not afraid of going to hell, because I know that I'm not. And it's about about being in the "right" church. As long as you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) and therefore, there is not need to worry. You're saved.

What if one day, you have doubt?


BTW There is no hell after death.

Christianity is getting less popular, alot of times its even made fun of. I dont think anyone would join Christianity because of peer pressure nowadays...somone may be pressured into it by their parents but thats about it.

I was raised catholic and I agree with Imperial_Samura, I think most christians are just christians out of habit.
Children will grow up going to religious school, date religious guys/girls, go to church every sunday, etc. Why would they question their faith when they're lives are that comfortable. Of course fear does play a role but from my experience most catholic kids just live this routine and they find no need to change it or to try new things.

I am not catholic btw, I'm agnostic.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I began to open up, and the Lord healed me in many ways. I forgave my parents, and have a better relationship with them.

This is one of the great benefits, IMO, of religion (any faith) when practiced in a positive, constructive way. Healing, forgiveness (of self and others). Even if one wishes to see this as a placebo effect, the benefits are still real. Plenty of scientific studies - in the medical field, no less - have unequivocally demonstrated this.

Can one achieve this kind of healing (and forgiveness) as an atheist? Given the power of belief for any individual, I would think so, though I am not aware of any studies in this vein.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So you are not afraid of going to hell. What if you are not in the right church? Yeah, and what if you're not baptized, or what if you didn't get communion, or what if you forgot to ask forgiveness before you died, and what if you weren't dedicated as a baby, and what if think the trinity is 3 persons and what if you think Jesus isn't god, but only a redeemer.

I think the people who haven't posted here are the ones who are afraid.

Fear is bondage.........As scripture says The truth will set you free

My family are proclaimed Christians.

But this is the way I see it. It only seems to be my Dad and my sister's family who is the real one. He's gone through so much yet has never turned his back on his faith and he has been rewarded for it in more ways than one from multiple sources you'd never think of.

My mom, is trying her best to be one. She's not perfect and she's prone to rage but she means well.

My younger brother is a handful, droppijng out of school doing druigs, and getting someone pregnant and not being at least gainfully employed. But he's mellowed out now and while not gainfully employed, is at least employed and has an excellent track record at work (though he still has to finish college)

My older brother, I know little of. Except that he also dropped out of college and became an entrepreneur. But did no drugs (as far as I know), is gainfully employed, and seems to be handling himself well enough.

My older sister has been recently wed to another christian and has 1 year old son. As far as I can tell, they seem to be happy with one another and with their son. I know her husband and I can say and believe he is a decent person.

Which leaves me. I am still in college and not gainfully employed (but employed and taking part time masteral studies).

I have an on and off relationship with Jesus because there are so many questions that I have that can't seem to be answered short of "just have faith". I always find myself asking the very same question. Am I a christian who is only a christian because I'm deathly afraid of going to hell? I ask some christians I meet regarding this, and they never really thought much that it was the fear of hell that haunts them or coaxes them into being a christian.

One even told me that no one can really be a christian, even the proclaimed ones if they do not have a personal day-to-day relationship and encounter with Jesus or God. He even went further to tell me that's what christianity is all about. Having that kind of relationship where you feel like you could talk with and feel Jesus/God as your mentor, your older sibling, or even parent.

Attending church and the like is not necessary to cultivate a relationship with Jesus/God. He emphasized relationship and not traditional religious beliefs.

That does sound silly doesn't it. But there was a calm yet not obnoxious way he related it to me which made me rethink the whole thing.

But truth of the matter is, I'm a selfish person who only looks out for himself. I don't like the idea on hugging onto a deity. If at all possible, if there was a place that is not purgatory and where neither heaven nor hell existed, and is outside the influences of both, I might prefer that.

But there is absolutely no way for me to be sure that there is a hell. I don't like unpleasant surprises so I assume there is and I do not want to go there. But following the tenements of faith make it seem like I have much ass kissing to do. Which I dislike.

So here I am claiming to be one. But I know I'm not. It doesn't matter to me if I am loved or not. I can get by and for me thats what matters. Sounds like a sad lonely ultimate existence, but its the one I can logically explain. Though in and of itself, logic is limited because by mere logic you simply cannot know everything. At least while you're alive and still breathing.

That's my 2 cents on the topic.

Originally posted by Ordo
If you dont believe everything about Christianity, does that make you not Christian?

I know a lot of Christians who do not believe that same. JIA and peejayd is a good example: JIA believes in an original sin while peejayd does not. You would think that the original sin mythology was fundamental to Christianity, but I guess it's not.

I don't think most Christians are Christians out of fear. In fact, I think almost none are. I think most are Christians because they were raised that way, and it's very, very hard to buck one's upbringing. What a person's parents are is the overwhelmingly biggest factor in determining what religion someone will be.

And if you believe you're right, there's no fear. It's more of a contentedness, or something to lean on through hardships.

I do think, however, that many won't officially leave Christianity out of a vague fear. I'm talking about "lapsed" Christians who still identify themselves as such to society, on a census, etc. What's the point of continuing as such if you don't really practice that religion? But I think that's the point at which some form of Pascal's Wager creeps into the mind and keeps them officially Christian.

damn it Digi, I was going to post almost the exact same thing!

Originally posted by Digi
I don't think most Christians are Christians out of fear. In fact, I think almost none are. I think most are Christians because they were raised that way, and it's very, very hard to buck one's upbringing. What a person's parents are is the overwhelmingly biggest factor in determining what religion someone will be.

And if you believe you're right, there's no fear. It's more of a contentedness, or something to lean on through hardships.

I do think, however, that many won't officially leave Christianity out of a vague fear. I'm talking about "lapsed" Christians who still identify themselves as such to society, on a census, etc. What's the point of continuing as such if you don't really practice that religion? But I think that's the point at which some form of Pascal's Wager creeps into the mind and keeps them officially Christian.

However, when I became a Buddhist, I got "but you will burn in hell" from all of my family. They were using fear to try and stop me from becoming a Buddhist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, when I became a Buddhist, I got "but you will burn in hell" from all of my family. They were using fear to try and stop me from becoming a Buddhist.

And you probably responded with "by not being Buddhist you're in a cage". Frankly I think this tells us more about you than anything else.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And you probably responded with "by not being Buddhist you're in a cage". Frankly I think this tells us more about you than anything else.

No, but when I was a Christian, I was in a cage of the mind, but now that I am not a Christian I am not in that cage. Buddhism doesn't threaten me to stay, but Christianity did.

Oh, I think this is a definite factor on christians. Not necessarily fear of hell, but I think fear of being ostracized is a real issue. the christian right in america has done a very good job of making atheists seem unamerican, evil, etc...

Anyone who thinks pascal's wager is a valid argument is showing the powerful influence fear has on their religion.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, when I became a Buddhist, I got "but you will burn in hell" from all of my family. They were using fear to try and stop me from becoming a Buddhist.

yes, but that doesn't mean fear is what motivates their beliefs, just that they now are afraid for you, or think you should be afraid of eternal consequences to your soul.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Oh, I think this is a definite factor on christians. Not necessarily fear of hell, but I think fear of being ostracized is a real issue. the christian right in america has done a very good job of making atheists seem unamerican, evil, etc...

interesting.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Anyone who thinks pascal's wager is a valid argument is showing the powerful influence fear has on their religion.

I think very few religious people honestly took Pascal's wager before determining their beliefs. Rather, it is a meme that allows cognitive dissonance (arguably one of the most powerful motivators of religious belief) to quickly dismiss any logically powerful arguments against their spirituality.

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but that doesn't mean fear is what motivates their beliefs, just that they now are afraid for you, or think you should be afraid of eternal consequences to your soul.

I disagree. From as far back as I can remember I was told about hell and how I would go to hell if I did not become saved. That is the reason I became saved. I wanted to go to heaven and not hell. It is both karat and stick.

Originally posted by inimalist
I think very few religious people honestly took Pascal's wager before determining their beliefs. Rather, it is a meme that allows cognitive dissonance (arguably one of the most powerful motivators of religious belief) to quickly dismiss any logically powerful arguments against their spirituality.
My point on pascal's wager wasn't so much that christians are afraid, but that christianity is a religion that motivates fear.

* i am a Christian by choice and by faith, not out of fear... my two cents: in the Bible, the word "fear" does not literally means you are afraid of something, example:

"This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man."
Ecclesiastes 12:13

* here, fearing God is keeping His commandments... other passages include:

"The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
Psalms 19:9

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."
Psalms 111:10

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:13

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
Proverbs 9:10

"The fear of the Lord prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
Proverbs 10:27

"In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge."
Proverbs 14:26

"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death."
Proverbs 14:27

"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."
Proverbs 15:33

"The fear of the Lord tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil."
Proverbs 19:23

Originally posted by peejayd
* i am a Christian by choice and by faith, not out of fear... my two cents: in the Bible, the word "fear" does not literally means you are afraid of something, example:

"This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man."
Ecclesiastes 12:13

* here, fearing God is keeping His commandments... other passages include:

"The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
Psalms 19:9

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."
Psalms 111:10

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:13

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
Proverbs 9:10

"The fear of the Lord prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
Proverbs 10:27

"In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge."
Proverbs 14:26

"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death."
Proverbs 14:27

"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."
Proverbs 15:33

"The fear of the Lord tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil."
Proverbs 19:23

So, just change the meaning of the word.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, when I became a Buddhist, I got "but you will burn in hell" from all of my family. They were using fear to try and stop me from becoming a Buddhist.

Well I did say "most." I still don't think it motivates most Christians, though I understand that your experience differs from mine, and that it will necessarily influence our perceptions. Instead of hellish accusations, I got a lot of "If there isn't a God, what's the point?" and "Do you feel an emptiness?" type of questions. More an appeal to emotions of belonging rather than fear. No one actually tried to guilt or fear me back into the religion, though I did encounter at least one twist on Pascal's Wager to try to "keep" me.

Originally posted by Digi
Well I did say "most." I still don't think it motivates most Christians, though I understand that your experience differs from mine, and that it will necessarily influence our perceptions. Instead of hellish accusations, I got a lot of "If there isn't a God, what's the point?" and "Do you feel an emptiness?" type of questions. More an appeal to emotions of belonging rather than fear. No one actually tried to guilt or fear me back into the religion, though I did encounter at least one twist on Pascal's Wager to try to "keep" me.

Ya, I was raised as a Baptist. That should explain a lot.

i think almost all christians go through a state of staying with the pack because of fear. i mean, when you're a little kid, you have the mental vision of god being a really big grandpa in the sky who wears white and has long curly hair and he's always smiling and he's always loving you and watching over you.

but then those kids grow up and learn some of the more distasteful bible stories that lay in the old testament. wow, god the grandpa would demolish whole cities? that's not very fair. this is probably pre-puberty for a kid who "grew up" in the church and they start developing their own opinions. it's still fun to go to sunday school and church related activities, but they're encouraged to read their bibles and so discover the rape of dinah and lot throwing his daughters to the streets so they could be sacrificed for the sake of angels.

now it depends on denomination. conservatives will be told it's all god's plan, god wanted it to happen. when relatives die, these that god wanted to have whomever up with him, so don't worry for whomever. of course they're not going to hell, nobody in our circle goes to hell. these people will grow up, have questions about spirituality, and be told god's taking care of it, it's okay, don't worry, just pray, you don't need to know the answer because god does.

people in a more liberal denomination will ask questions, and be encouraged to think about the answers. their road won't be as clear. they'll probably have to think about tough stuff and form their own opinions. and so here... maybe a college aged kid is thinking that he doesn't really believe what he grew up believing, but oh jeeez, maybe he just better stick with it because he doesn't want to go to hell, he doesn't want to have a fireball thrown at him, he doesn't want to be sacrificed to evil

then it's fear of being out of the group of christians. what your religion is is a huge identifier. and if you leave your identity, you're going to have to make a new one. that change is scary, and maybe you have your christian identity ready to slip back into because you don't like telling people you're whatever.

at that point, you either say "what the hell so i have questions, but i'm willing to stay for faith" or you say "what the hell, i don't want anything bad to happen, so i'll stay for the protection," or you might even say, "this whole idea/doctrine... i just don't believe it anymore. i'm agnostic right now.

eventually something happens and you settle into a pattern, even if your pattern is stealing ideas off of all religions and sticking them together for your own custom made religion.

*and done*

Some interesting points sirius, especially about the cycle that a lot of people go through to remain in their religion. What I found was that a lot of people are so insulated, not in what they're exposed to (we have the internet, after all) but in how they're challenged (or not challenged, as it may be) and so their "spiritual crises" amount to emotional turmoil that is solved through prayer or family. That's all well and good, but it doesn't equate to critical thinking about one's beliefs.

I still don't believe it comes back to fear too often. Upbringing, convenience, or an actual contentedness with the religion, are far, far bigger roles. Imo, at least.

I guess I was just lucky though. People do fear change, and leaving a religion can be scary for a number of reasons. I was old enough to enjoy the opposition, rather than be afraid of it. Not that I wished for it, mind you, but there was a certain confidence in being able to confront people head-on about it, since I do know "Christians" who aren't Christians, but haven't come out so as to avoid the sh*tstorm from their family and/or community. But that's a fear of people and of losing relationships, not a strictly religious I-might-go-to-hell fear.

This topic kind of reminded me of this humorous article (great site btw):

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/badmum.html

Originally posted by JacopeX
I have yet to have met any false Christians or religious followers. Atheism is accepted greatly where I live.

I can't see how a non-believer or anyone worries about being singled out and follow Christianity out of peer pressure as I believe you are probably explaining. Made fun of? What is this, kindergarten? In the real world, you will see a bunch of things you will just have to ignore most of the time.

Then you're lucky. So was I, relatively speaking, though I did have multiple attempts at re-conversion, and not all of them were particularly gentile. Pressure from family and community can be downright overwhelming for many people. To pretend otherwise is a lie. Are there plenty of tolerant people, communities, etc.? Absolutely. And I'd be wildly guessing at percentages for either environment, but both exist.

digi - yeah, insulation is definitely a big issue. with conservatives, especially elementary school aged, their parents watch out for the type of people that hang around their new kids. i had two friends like this - one had a mother who, from fourth grade till freshman year, home-schooled each of her four daughters. one of the daughters being a good friend of mine, i just couldn't understand this. when she came back into public school, she was able to explain that her parents knew that these years were when girls started to grow their gossip claws and experiment with more subtle ways of making fun of people. which i experienced - two of my 'best friends' started writing notes about me, nasty things that they probably heard from their parents and didn't even know what it meant, except it was derogatory. but guess what : because i experienced that i developed a touch skin.
i had another good friend who went to evangi school until grade five, and i happened to know her from some birthday party i went to. her parents wanted her to spend her young childhood surrounded by 'true christians' so she would have a stronger foundation to be able to stand up to bullies. and be irreverent. i found a friend who thought like i did, and they didn't go to church. i went to college and experienced SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

and now i'm a little more than agnostic, like, i love the idea of karma and reincarnation and the presbyterian work ethic and just ideas from everywhere.

i am more happy, i think, with myself, than any of my friends, except for the one i met that came from a different background. i've got no fear about christianity. if there's a god, i figure that it's got to be something worldwide, something that wouldn't make a person who never got to hear "the word" because of circumstances go to hell. my post above speaks for kids who "grew up" in the church, and their possible paths. it was hard to leave, but i did. and now i'm completely satisfied and glad i did.

Originally posted by RoguePw25
No I'm not afraid of going to hell, because I know that I'm not. And it's about about being in the "right" church. As long as you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) and therefore, there is not need to worry. You're saved.

So Mother Thersa burns in hell, unsaved, despite all the good work...? (She was a proven athetist, in the end, after all. http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007...s-of-faith.html)

If Jesus Christ rose from the dead, then he uuummmmm... wasnt dead. (Dead generally meaning the ultimate end of your life.)

And therefore God would NOT have sacrificed his own son.

Also, a rightly made point these days, is that Lazarus and the whole dead rising in cities thing cheapens Christ's "Resurrection" myth.

Do you really think that 9/11 hijackers are in Heaven now, with all those virgins?

(Cause the solipsism in their beliefs mirrors such "I believe in Jesus so I'm saved" statements.)

If what we believed had any actual effect on life, then try some LSD, wait for the feeling/belief/deep conviction that you can fly to set in, then test it by jumping off a 3 ft wall.

My money says, that you would in fact just land on floor.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

If Jesus Christ rose from the dead, then he uuummmmm... wasnt dead. (Dead generally meaning the ultimate end of your life.

Oh crap, you've broken tautology.

Most people call themselves that only because they know no other way or why else 'to' call themsevles christians. As for any other reason...I would say most are what they are because they feel a need to belong to something greater than themselves...ah but then again, who knows why. I call myself that by dint of birth and baptism.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So Mother Thersa burns in hell, unsaved, despite all the good work...? (She was a proven athetist, in the end, after all. http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007...s-of-faith.html)

Some Indians are a bit skeptical about the good works, as well.

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20031020_en.htm

It is true, their are aspects of the Bible that I label difficult to understand, but not the Christian message and its founder Jesus Christ. I can speak openly with friends and family about such things (without fear of being exiled and/or branded). People that I associate with have the mentality to strive at everything they do, and that includes personal relationships.



I have never in my entire life met such a person. I have met persons with doubt, but they prayed, studied and communicated openly with others to help find a solution to their question/concern. In the end, their faith was confirmed and strengthened.



Biblical Christians do not monopolize their lives pondering over demon possession and hell. On the contrary, they build their lives around Christ Jesus, and they try to immolate Him. They do this out of love, not fear.

Originally posted by ushomefree
It is true, their are aspects of the Bible that I label difficult to understand, but not the Christian message and its founder Jesus Christ. I can speak openly with friends and family about such things (without fear of being exiled and/or branded). People that I associate with have the mentality to strive at everything they do, and that includes personal relationships.



I have never in my entire life met such a person. I have met persons with doubt, but they prayed, studied and communicated openly with others to help find a solution to their question/concern. In the end, their faith was confirmed and strengthened.



Biblical Christians do not monopolize their lives pondering over demon possession and hell. On the contrary, they build their lives around Christ Jesus, and they try to immolate Him. They do this out of love, not fear.

So, there is no hell?

If what you say is true, then there is no reason to teach children about hell. As soon as you do, you use fear to manipulate the child into becoming a Christian.

Even the word "saved" has a connotation of danger.

Hell is taught just the same as bankruptcy during economic courses. Although it's not the core of the message, it's important to understand. It puts things into perspective. You act as if children, even adults, are locked into an insane asylum and brainwashed into becoming Christian with repetitive verses about hell.

People become Christian because they are moved by Christ, not the chance of vacationing in hell for eternity. Hell does not have the power to captivate people, but Jesus' love for His creation does. I pray, that someday you will understand.

Hell does exist; it is not a bunsen burner, however. Hell is NOT a place of "physical" anguish, but of "spiritual" anguish. In hell everything is lost, even freedom.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Hell is taught just the same as bankruptcy during economic courses. Although it's not the core of the message, it's important to understand. It puts things into perspective. You act as if children, even adults, are locked into an insane asylum and brainwashed into becoming Christian with repetitive verses about hell.

People become Christian because they are moved by Christ, not the chance of vacationing in hell for eternity. Hell does not have the power to captivate people, but Jesus' love for His creation does. I pray, that someday you will understand.

Hell does exist; it is not a bunsen burner, however. Hell is NOT a place of "physical" anguish, but of "spiritual" anguish. In hell everything is lost, even freedom.
Westboro Baptist Church

Originally posted by King Kandy
Westboro Baptist Church

Hell is Westboro Baptist or is this a question about if they go there?

King Kandy-

Have you ever met a Christian man, woman or child? If so, you'd never associate them with members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Originally posted by ushomefree
King Kandy-

Have you ever met a Christian man, woman or child? If so, you'd never associate them with members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

I sense you're about to use the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Originally posted by ushomefree
King Kandy-

Have you ever met a Christian man, woman or child? If so, you'd never associate them with members of the Westboro Baptist Church.
You are just making excuses now. They are christians who operate through fear. If you exclude them because of that, your entire argument was a pitiful bit of circular logic.

6UMP3AK5jwo

I do not (and cannot) understand your connection attached toWestboro Baptist Church members as being Christian.
How are they so?

Their beliefs are based on how the read the main Christian holy text. They consider themselves followers of the most important Christian prophet. They identify as a branch of Christianity.


Or let me give you anoyher example. Were the terrorists who blew up the Trade Centers Muslim?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Hell is taught just the same as bankruptcy during economic courses. Although it's not the core of the message, it's important to understand. It puts things into perspective. You act as if children, even adults, are locked into an insane asylum and brainwashed into becoming Christian with repetitive verses about hell.

People become Christian because they are moved by Christ, not the chance of vacationing in hell for eternity. Hell does not have the power to captivate people, but Jesus' love for His creation does. I pray, that someday you will understand.

Hell does exist; it is not a bunsen burner, however. Hell is NOT a place of "physical" anguish, but of "spiritual" anguish. In hell everything is lost, even freedom.

Would you burn in hell if you left Christianity and became something like a Buddhist?

Also, are you not subject to judgment and being cast into the lake of fire if you do not take Jesus as your savor?

If I wished to lead Buddhism, I would not burn in a Buddhist hell or be judged by a Buddhist god. It seems to me that you are motivated to become a Christian and stay a Christian because of the fear of punishment.

Originally posted by ushomefree
6UMP3AK5jwo

I do not (and cannot) understand your connection attached toWestboro Baptist Church members as being Christian.
How are they so?
They believe in Jesus Christ as God. They use the Bible as their holy text.

What I can't understand, is how you fail to realize they are Christians. Because they use fear? Obviously the mere existence of this thread shows that can't be the reason.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If I wished to lead Buddhism, I would not burn in a Buddhist hell or be judged by a Buddhist god. It seems to me that you are motivated to become a Christian and stay a Christian because of the fear of punishment.

Bad example. The only reason you remain Buddhist is because (as you are so quick to remind others) any other beliefs are delusions.

Hold on gentleman, I feel overwhelmed. I understand that this is an open forum, but I can only entertain one comment and/or question at a time. Give me a moment, please. Thank you.

You could have just posted your replies when you were ready. There was no need to remind us you have below average internet competency.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Bad example. The only reason you remain Buddhist is because (as you are so quick to remind others) any other beliefs are delusions.

No, that does not keep me here (as a Buddhist). I choose... There is no punishment for me if I leave. In other words I am not a Buddhist out of fear. I am a Buddhist because I want to be. As a Christian, my experience was quite the opposite.


Originally posted by ushomefree
Hold on gentleman, I feel overwhelmed. I understand that this is an open forum, but I can only entertain one comment and/or question at a time. Give me a moment, please. Thank you.

Sorry ushomefree, but you are not the center of the world. Keep up as you can.

This is a loaded question; let me explain. Biblical Christians are "born again." A Christian, having been blessed with the Holy Spirit, is eternally Christ's. In other words, people who profess to be Christian -- but loose their faith -- were never Christian to begin with. They may have had the best intentions, but they put faith in their works, not Christ's. They completely missed the point, and they were doomed to fail from the beginning. If this does not make sense, please let me know. I'll explain.



That is correct, but I have zero fear of hell. It is non-existent.



That is your opinion, but why do you hold such beliefs?

* some "christians" became "christians" because of fear for which, in my opinion, are fake Christians... because in the Bible, Christians are followers/disciples of Christ voluntarily and not by force... and it also depends on the culture, say for example in Asian history, the country Philippines in particular, discovered by the Portuguese Magellan (c/o Spain) blatantly forced Catholicism to the natives... if they do not believe, they'll be persecuted, killed and branded as "ingrates" by the Spanish-dominated society and this went on for more than 300 years since 16th century where Spain colonized/enslaved the Philippines... in this scenario, who would not be a Catholic because of fear? sadly, majority of Filipinos still embrace Catholicism up until now, more than 85% of the country's population are all Catholics...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison Would you burn in hell if you left Christianity and became something like a Buddhist?

Also, are you not subject to judgment and being cast into the lake of fire if you do not take Jesus as your savor?

* you still cling to your former religion's obvious misinterpretations... in the Bible, there is hope in the mercy of God even if you left Christianity:

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
But when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day -- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus."
II Timothy 1:15-18

* and also, God is the savior of all people, may it be believer or not, Christian or not...

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

* now, saying otherwise means your former religion obviously carries wrong interpretation of the Scriptures...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison If I wished to lead Buddhism, I would not burn in a Buddhist hell or be judged by a Buddhist god. It seems to me that you are motivated to become a Christian and stay a Christian because of the fear of punishment.

* it seems to me you are motivated to be a Buddhist because you were brainwashed by the wrong teachings of your former religion claiming to be a Christian group...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, that does not keep me here (as a Buddhist). I choose... There is no punishment for me if I leave. In other words I am not a Buddhist out of fear. I am a Buddhist because I want to be.

Being "trapped in delusions" is the exact sort of threat or punishment you're talking about. You stay Buddhist because you are afraid that if you switch to a different system it's the same as being insane, that's what your faith teaches and indeed it is what you preach to others. Seeing you try to pretend different is an absolutely priceless bit of hypocrisy.

Symmetric Chaos-

Who are you, ha ha?!

Originally posted by peejayd
* some "christians" became "christians" because of fear for which, in my opinion, are fake Christians... because in the Bible, Christians are followers/disciples of Christ voluntarily and not by force... and it also depends on the culture, say for example in Asian history, the country Philippines in particular, discovered by the Portuguese Magellan (c/o Spain) blatantly forced Catholicism to the natives... if they do not believe, they'll be persecuted, killed and branded as "ingrates" by the Spanish-dominated society and this went on for more than 300 years since 16th century where Spain colonized/enslaved the Philippines... in this scenario, who would not be a Catholic because of fear? sadly, majority of Filipinos still embrace Catholicism up until now, more than 85% of the country's population are all Catholics...



* you still cling to your former religion's obvious misinterpretations... in the Bible, there is hope in the mercy of God even if you left Christianity:

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
But when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day -- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus."
II Timothy 1:15-18

* and also, God is the savior of all people, may it be believer or not, Christian or not...

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

* now, saying otherwise means your former religion obviously carries wrong interpretation of the Scriptures...



* it seems to me you are motivated to be a Buddhist because you were brainwashed by the wrong teachings of your former religion claiming to be a Christian group...

This is the same flawed logic, but you are more "forgiving".

Originally posted by ushomefree
This is a loaded question; let me explain. Biblical Christians are "born again." A Christian, having been blessed with the Holy Spirit, is eternally Christ's. In other words, people who profess to be Christian -- but loose their faith -- were never Christian to begin with. They may have had the best intentions, but they put faith in their works, not Christ's. They completely missed the point, and they were doomed to fail from the beginning. If this does not make sense, please let me know. I'll explain.

You can't have that and have free will. If they were doomed to fail from the beginning then they didn't have the ability to choose, that was a path already blocked for them by fate. This also leads to Calvinist style predestination in which case Christianity is rendered totally moot.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Being "trapped in delusions" is the exact sort of threat or punishment you're talking about. You stay Buddhist because you are afraid that if you switch to a different system it's the same as being insane, that's what your faith teaches and indeed it is what you preach to others. Seeing you try to pretend different is an absolutely priceless bit of hypocrisy.

That is a stretch. You forget that I believe that like the elephant and the 5 blind men, no one can know what the truth is. This delusion, for me, is the clearest delusion, but now were are off topic and we are going to do nothing but confuse everyone. Perhaps a different thread, and I different time.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is the same flawed logic, but you are more "forgiving".

* your refute -> fail...

Originally posted by peejayd
* your refute -> fail...

peejayd my friend, the topic is fear, and how the Christian religion uses fear to keep people as Christians.

Not me, if I didn't believe it, I wouldn't follow it.

Originally posted by ushomefree
This is a loaded question; let me explain. Biblical Christians are "born again." A Christian, having been blessed with the Holy Spirit, is eternally Christ's. In other words, people who profess to be Christian -- but loose their faith -- were never Christian to begin with. They may have had the best intentions, but they put faith in their works, not Christ's. They completely missed the point, and they were doomed to fail from the beginning. If this does not make sense, please let me know. I'll explain.
That is such a cop-out. You are basically saying, people who lose faith just weren't trying hard enough. I mean, obviously they didn't come to that conclusion through logic or intelligence, if they disagree with you. Basically you are saying that people who lose faith are inferior to you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
peejayd my friend, the topic is fear, and how the Christian religion uses fear to keep people as Christians.

* well, re: topic, the Christian doctrine in the Bible does not use fear... who uses fear are those so-called "christian" groups who twist the Scriptures to gain more members... and the more members they have, the more money they will have...

Originally posted by peejayd
* well, re: topic, the Christian doctrine in the Bible does not use fear... who uses fear are those so-called "christian" groups who twist the Scriptures to gain more members... and the more members they have, the more money they will have...

So, if you left to become a different religion, you would not end up being condemned by god on judgment day, and cast into the lake of fire?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, if you left to become a different religion, you would not end up being condemned by god on judgment day, and cast into the lake of fire?

* as stated in my earlier post, II Timothy 1:15-18... it means "no!"...

Originally posted by peejayd
* as stated in my earlier post, II Timothy 1:15-18... it means "no!"...

So, you do not teach children about hell? You also, do not tell them that if they do not become saved, they will go to hell?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you do not teach children about hell? You also, do not tell them that if they do not become saved, they will go to hell?

* of course i do, because hell is written in the Bible... you see, there is what you call "the law of liberty/freedom" specified in the New Testament... instead of instilling fear, i urge otherwise like teaching to edify love, faith, hope and to do good works to go to heaven...

If we're making a list: I was a Christian as a kid because all the other children would talk about what they did on Sundays and got my parents to send me to Sunday school. I stayed for a long time because I was so fascinated by the stories (we were usually told the story and asked what it meant) and because I fall into habits very easily.

In retrospect I suppose my motivation for becoming Christian and becoming an atheist (though I find that a poor label) were very similar, interest in the world around. When Christianity ceased to provide the sorts of questions and answers that interested me I phased it out of my life in favor of a scientific view. Even there I have to give credit to my grandfather who didn't really do actively do anything but simply be an atheist which certainly affected my world view.

Of course some people might argue that I was never really religious.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If we're making a list: I was a Christian as a kid because all the other children would talk about what they did on Sundays and got my parents to send me to Sunday school. I stayed for a long time because I was so fascinated by the stories (we were usually told the story and asked what it meant) and because I fall into habits very easily.

In retrospect I suppose my motivation for becoming Christian and becoming an atheist (though I find that a poor label) were very similar, interest in the world around. When Christianity ceased to provide the sorts of questions and answers that interested me I phased it out of my life in favor of a scientific view. Even there I have to give credit to my grandfather who didn't really do actively do anything but simply be an atheist which certainly affected my world view.

Of course some people might argue that I was never really religious.

Interesting. Sounds vaguely similar to me. I was always proud of the fact that while I was born and raised Catholic, I didn't blindly accept what was told to me by the church, but thought it critically through to make sure I was in agreement with it. This was all well and good for a long time, but eventually I developed the critical thinking skills to stymie religion, and had to leave. Which seems basically like what happened to you.

In retrospect, I guess I never really considered that a lot of others don't question everything they're told. I suppose I just intuitively rejected the basis of blind faith as the foundation for religious belief in Christianity, even though I wasn't aware of it.

But yeah, atheist is a bad label. Not because it doesn't describe my religion, but because of the stigmas that need to be overcome with it. Too few see it as merely a statement of belief, but attach a worldview and demeanor to it. Sometimes I don't mind using that sterotype to my advantage, but usually I'd rather not upset or distance people with it. I stick with non-theist or free thinker most often.

Originally posted by peejayd
* of course i do, because hell is written in the Bible... you see, there is what you call "the law of liberty/freedom" specified in the New Testament... instead of instilling fear, i urge otherwise like teaching to edify love, faith, hope and to do good works to go to heaven...

So, you teach something as scary as hell to children so they can learn love, faith, hope and to do good works to go to heaven?

There's a word for that...



BTW Symmetric Chaos, you and Digi are going to burn in hell.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you teach something as scary as hell to children so they can learn love, faith, hope and to do good works to go to heaven?

* i assume this is a joke, mr.shakyamunison, unless you want me to think you have reading comprehension problems...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
* of course i do, because hell is written in the Bible... you see, there is what you call "the law of liberty/freedom" specified in the New Testament... instead of instilling fear, i urge otherwise like teaching to edify love, faith, hope and to do good works to go to heaven...

* i teach them there is a hell, because it is true in the Bible... but i do not emphasize it... i don't teach them to love out of fear from hell, but teach love for them to go to heaven...

Originally posted by peejayd
* i assume this is a joke, mr.shakyamunison, unless you want me to think you have reading comprehension problems...



* i teach them there is a hell, because it is true in the Bible... but i do not emphasize it... i don't teach them to love out of fear from hell, but teach love for them to go to heaven...

Then why not wait? There are serial killers in the world, be we don't tell our children about them until they get older.

* so this is about the fear in children? not about us, adults? eh?

Originally posted by peejayd
* so this is about the fear in children? not about us, adults? eh?

I am talking about the foundation of fear in adult Christians.
They were told that if they are not saved then they will go to hell. This fear leads them to later, when they have children, past this fear of hell on to their children. It is the fear of hell that is the foundation that keeps a lot, not all, Christians in line.

Is this not true that if you are not saved then you will go to hell, or be cast in the lake of fire at the time of judgment? It seems to be a little different from one denomination to the other, but the tactic is the same.

(assuming the bible is true, don't come in and be a douche and say "lul god no exist, dur"

The true motivation of jesus christ was to save not to condemn. The idea is we were all going to hell anyway and jesus came and provided a safe alternative, all you have to do (pretty much) is be nice to one another and give him credit.

There are bad christians and good christians. Just because you decide to motivate those under your influence with fear, doesn't mean that that's the motivation of Jesus. Bad Christians have good intentions but miss the mark in method and usually results.

Honestly, what's more discreet and effective, being nice to you and offering you the gift of eternal hope like jesus would have, or threatening someone with a scary ghost story?

While the person threatened with the scary ghost story might appear to have jumped on the bandwagon, he is insincere and probably not a "true christian". Someone willing to *gasp* treat other people nicely for the purpose of attaining the one true light is probably more sincere and more true than anyone motivated by fear.

In other words, while Christians may have poor methods in some instances, and great in other instances, the church is a multitude of conflict, And what one group represents doesn't always represent the will of Jesus Christ.

If a church motivates by fear, it doesn't mean they aren't christians, it just means they've got something wacky mixed up with their theology. It doesn't represent the entire group of Christians, and it most certainly is not what jesus would have wanted.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am talking about the foundation of fear in adult Christians.
They were told that if they are not saved then they will go to hell. This fear leads them to later, when they have children, past this fear of hell on to their children. It is the fear of hell that is the foundation that keeps a lot, not all, Christians in line.

* there is, but not a lot, only due to Scripture misinterpretation... you see, i was a former Catholic, i was baptized a Catholic when i was a baby, meaning, i did not have the opportunity then to decide to choose a religion so i grew up a Catholic... if you consider Catholics as Christians, then i was not a Christian out of fear but by culture or tradition or whatever you call that because my parents are both Catholics and their parents and their parents' parents... but in the Bible, Christians do not baptize infants or children, Christians are baptized when they know how to discern and decide to choose a religion of their own... there are no infants/children baptized in the Bible...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is this not true that if you are not saved then you will go to hell, or be cast in the lake of fire at the time of judgment? It seems to be a little different from one denomination to the other, but the tactic is the same.

* for starters, faith is a belief you cling on to... just like you have faith on Buddhism... being a Christian is an ongoing process, it's not because you are baptized, you are automatically a Christian... Christians are followers of the doctrines/words, Christ said:

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:31

* hell is not a major motivation of fear... there is heaven as an inspiration, and there is a goal: to be a true disciple of Christ... if someone claims to be a Christian who became a "christian" out of fear, he's fake in my book...

Originally posted by peejayd
* hell is not a major motivation of fear... there is heaven as an inspiration, and there is a goal: to be a true disciple of Christ... if someone claims to be a Christian who became a "christian" out of fear, he's fake in my book...
And so he's going to hell, eh?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
BTW Symmetric Chaos, you and Digi are going to burn in hell.

*&#^!

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
(assuming the bible is true, don't come in and be a douche and say "lul god no exist, dur"

....So. Tempting.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And so he's going to hell, eh?

* i don't know... what i know is, God is the Savior of both believers and non-believers, I Timothy 4:10...

I used to be Christian out of fear.

I feared God would punish me, just like what my parents and the priests would say.
I would be damned to the lowest pits of hell if I questioned God.

I found out as I learned that God was nothing more than a character from a fairytale book.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i don't know... what i know is, God is the Savior of both believers and non-believers, I Timothy 4:10...
Then who is it who goes to hell? If none does, then why do you teach it as you said to shaky?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Then who is it who goes to hell? If none does, then why do you teach it as you said to shaky?

* the devil and his minions... Matthew 25:41...

This doesn't make sense; how can you especially save someone? it's not an action you can do moreso for one person than another. You are either saved or you aren't. I can't ESPECIALLY save a woman from drowning and just barely save you. I believe that the "specially" might be key here due to the fact that the root is the same thing one used by "specifically." as anyone would know, the english language is constantly evolving and thus the meaning of specially has now come to connote an extra amplitude of the action. Also note that "specially" is not the same as the modern english "especially".

For instance: "I would miss my car if it got stolen, especially the leather seats."

Whereas if we replace especially with specifically:

"I would miss my car if it got stolen, specifically the leather seats." which implies that you don't care about the rest, you just like the seats.



Also take note that we use the word "special" as an adjective in the same way we use specific

"a special kind of gun"

"that one is specially designed to lift heavier cars"

etc.


Thus we can see that it is not a conflict of matthew 25:31-46, which states that all nations (people of all nations in more contemporary translations) will be judged.

also, Peejayd, your second verse was very out of context. as you will see above, the full context states that people will go into the fire that was designed for the devil and his angels.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
This doesn't make sense; how can you especially save someone? it's not an action you can do moreso for one person than another. You are either saved or you aren't. I can't ESPECIALLY save a woman from drowning and just barely save you. I believe that the "specially" might be key here due to the fact that the root is the same thing one used by "specifically." as anyone would know, the english language is constantly evolving and thus the meaning of specially has now come to connote an extra amplitude of the action. Also note that "specially" is not the same as the modern english "especially".

For instance: "I would miss my car if it got stolen, especially the leather seats."

Whereas if we replace especially with specifically:

"I would miss my car if it got stolen, specifically the leather seats." which implies that you don't care about the rest, you just like the seats.



Also take note that we use the word "special" as an adjective in the same way we use specific

"a special kind of gun"

"that one is specially designed to lift heavier cars"

etc.

* it does not make sense because you went out of context...

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

* the passage denotes only two kinds of people -> believers and non-believers (unless you know of something else)... therefore, the living God is capable if saving ALL people ESPECIALLY believers...

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Thus we can see that it is not a conflict of matthew 25:31-46, which states that all nations (people of all nations in more contemporary translations) will be judged.

also, Peejayd, your second verse was very out of context. as you will see above, the full context states that people will go into the fire that was designed for the devil and his angels.

* yes, there will be people going to hell according to the Bible... my response was to solidify a belief that hell was not created for people but was intended for the devil and his minions...

Originally posted by SamZED
Im a religious man myself, but I really dont see people laughing at someone just because he doesnt believe what some guy said or wrote a few hundred or thousand years ago.

Then this thread does not reflect your experience.

Originally posted by SamZED
Im a religious man myself, but I really dont see people laughing at someone just because he doesnt believe what some guy said or wrote a few hundred or thousand years ago.
You are not looking very hard then.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it does not make sense because you went out of context...

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

* the passage denotes only two kinds of people -> believers and non-believers (unless you know of something else)... therefore, the living God is capable if saving ALL people ESPECIALLY believers...

1. Context is what the passage is found in. I was talking about the second verse when saying you went out of contest. And I thought that you were using this to enforce the idea that nobody was going to hell.

My 1 timothy 4:10 is from kjv, a more direct translation, not out of context. Ever play telephone? KJV is translated from the original latin, which is translated from the original greek and hebrew. NIV is translated from kjv which is translated from latin which is translated from the original greek and hebrew.

As for the second verse, I provided full context.
Ah i thought you said that no-one was going to hell except the devil and his minions, an unbiblical belief.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
1. Context is what the passage is found in. I was talking about the second verse when saying you went out of contest. And I thought that you were using this to enforce the idea that nobody was going to hell.

My 1 timothy 4:10 is from kjv, a more direct translation, not out of context. Ever play telephone? KJV is translated from the original latin, which is translated from the original greek and hebrew. NIV is translated from kjv which is translated from latin which is translated from the original greek and hebrew.

As for the second verse, I provided full context.

* i think in the passage I Timothy 4:10, Bible versions do not matter because it was correctly translated in majority of versions, earlier or later than KJV, for example:

"For therefore we labour and are rebuked, because we trust in the liuing God, which is the Sauiour of all men, specially of those that beleeue."
Geneva Bible (1587)

"For therfore we both labour, and suffer rebuke, because we haue hoped in the lyuyng God, whiche is the sauiour of all men, specially of those that beleue."
Bishops' Bible (1568)

"For therfore we both labour, and suffer reproch, because we trust in the liuing God, who is the Sauiour of all men, specially of those that beleeue."
King James (1611)

"For to that end we expose ourselves to trouble and reproach, because we hope in the living God, who is the saviour of all men, especially of believers."
Mace New Testament (1729)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of them that believe."
Wesley's New Testament (1755)

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Ah i thought you said that no-one was going to hell except the devil and his minions, an unbiblical belief.

* yup... i did not say no one's going to hell... just emphasizing that hell was not created for people but for the devil... anyone's going to ally with the devil willfully, goes with him...