Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

pick any legends of ur choice...

Evan Eschmeyer

Best:
Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
O. Robertson
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Olajuwon
Erving? (Couldn't decide on #10, way too many choices)

All-time favs:
Reggie Miller
LeBron James
Clyde Drexler
Charles Barkley
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
John Stockton
Arvydas Sabonis

my personal faves are in no order...

pat ewing (his shot was so sweet, the guy played with the fire of hell every ballgame)
clyde drexler (he was just so smooth glyding down the lane to sink a jam, and his hair rocked)
larry johnson (LJ!! he was a crazy ass dunker before the back injured him, but continued to be a good player with teh knicks helping to get them to teh finals as an eight seed)
chris bosh (wat a talent hes gonna be, raps for the title 2009)
cliff robinson (blazer who had passion and he played well at every part of the court, inside, outside, defense etc)
damon stoudamire first ever toronto pick and rook of that year, and he was a blazer)
dwight howard (the guys a mosnter on the boards)
sabonis (mainly because he was big and slow, but still knew how to play, and his passing was sublime at times, which i looked up2)

theres probably more there, and i'll add as i think of them

Dwight, Cliff and Wade were 3 guys I almost put on my list.

i would say:
michael jordan
bill russel
wilt chamberlain
ervin magic johnson
john stockton
kareem abdul jabbar
dr. j. julius erving
shaquille o'neol, most dominent center ever in my opinion
vince carter
oscar robertson
reggie miller

( none of these were in any particular order except for michael jordan on the top at #1)

okok, il take vince off for now, but when he does retire i will include him... in vince's place ill say.... scottie pippen.

If this thread is supposed to be about the top 10 best players ever then Vince Carter has no place being anywhere near it. I could understand favourites, but best - not even close. I mean i am a Kobe fan but i know he hasnt done enough to be put on the top 10 all time.
My top 10.
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Oscar
Wilt
Russel
Dr.J
Malone
Stockton

Stockton could be replaced by either Isiah, Cousy or Shaq but i figured that being the all time assist leader has got to count for something.

neither stockton or malone won a championship though... so its questionable! but ou have to repect what they did do and teh numbers they put up.

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Oscar
Duncan
Nate "Tiny" Archibald (very underrated. Only guy to lead the league in scoring and assists in a season)
Kareem
Isiah

Originally posted by darth_royke
neither stockton or malone won a championship though... so its questionable! but ou have to repect what they did do and teh numbers they put up.

I know they didnt win a championship, but Malone is 2nd all time scoring and Stockton is 1st all time in assists. Thats gotta count for something. Remember Steve Kerr, Bobby Hansen and Judd Bushler have all won championships that doesnt make them great players.

Originally posted by tanjot
okok, il take vince off for now, but when he does retire i will include him... in vince's place ill say.... scottie pippen.

Just like that? Automatically once he retires? Or are these under the assumptions of IF Vince starts winning championships or starts making it to the finals?

The funniest part was Pippen replaced him. Pippen is twice the player Carter is, he was not only one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game he was also a walking triple double - one of the most complete players i have ever seen.

yeah pip was an awesome player, i preferred his game to mj, though i realise he wasnt AS good as mike. that dunk on ewing was just sick. anyone remember sam perkins? big smooth? he was teh first biguy i saw shoot 3's for a living, that shot was actually smooth too, i dont think his feet left the floor! he played for the sonics. and was part of the 96' finals team agiasnt the bulls. mario elie was anoth guy i used to liek watching, nice outside shot, and some nice dunkage too. remember seeing him getting a high pass from rob horry against dallas in 96, and putting it away so nicely.

I have a friend who's mom went out with Sam Perkins for a long time. My ex-gf cleaned their house and they gave her a pair of his giant shoes (autographed). She sold them for like $5 at a yard sale. I was angry.

Sam Perkins always reminded me of a gibbon with his crazy long arms.

Originally posted by Myth
Just like that? Automatically once he retires? Or are these under the assumptions of IF Vince starts winning championships or starts making it to the finals?

yes it is under the assumption he becomes a winner, which he is doing a good job of being right now with rj and j kidd on his side, not to say he could not do it by himself with just a good supporting cast. right now, the way the nets have been playing against the top teams in the east such as detroit and miami, its seems as if they may very well win in game 6 of the eastern conference finals.

Originally posted by koolruningz
The funniest part was Pippen replaced him. Pippen is twice the player Carter is, he was not only one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game he was also a walking triple double - one of the most complete players i have ever seen.

by the time vince retires that assumption will have changed a lot, not to say u will say vince is better...but u will have a change in mind whether u hate him or not.

i dont think we hate vince.... i think we're fed up of hearing about him... wonder why?

I respect VC as a player, but not as a teammate. It would have been different if he approached the losing situation differently in Toronto. T-Mac was upset with Orlando's performance, but as long as he was on the court, he was still driving and trying.

I dont hate Vince at all, i dont even dislike him. I enjoy his highlight plays and think he has a very solid game. I think you get confused with best and favourite player thats all.

Originally posted by darth_royke
i dont think we hate vince.... i think we're fed up of hearing about him... wonder why?

try saying that to more than half of canada......

Originally posted by koolruningz
I dont hate Vince at all, i dont even dislike him. I enjoy his highlight plays and think he has a very solid game. I think you get confused with best and favourite player thats all.

but one thing i can say about vince is that, he is a favourite and one of the best. and guess who is starting for jermaine o'neal??? trust me. u think u know its gilbert arenas, but there has been a change in plans... take a guess, a wild guess. who other than gilbert arenas could POSSIBLY replace jermaine o'neal? lol. U GUESSED IT.

Seeing as the news has made you piss your pants im gonna guess ............................................................................... Carter.

Not to mention Gilbert Arenas is a 6'4" guard. Carter has played SF for most of his career. Even then though, putting Carter in the line-up doesn't make sense because then you have LeBron at PF. LeBron on Duncan doesn't make much sense. Therefore it may be Dwight, Bosh, Rasheed, or Ben Wallace. One of the Wallace's would be the best option.

Originally posted by Myth
Not to mention Gilbert Arenas is a 6'4" guard. Carter has played SF for most of his career. Even then though, putting Carter in the line-up doesn't make sense because then you have LeBron at PF. LeBron on Duncan doesn't make much sense. Therefore it may be Dwight, Bosh, Rasheed, or Ben Wallace. One of the Wallace's would be the best option.

no one else but arenas or carter is going to take the starting spot, and it makes more sense to put vince in than arenas because the east needs more size, and it would be much more enjoyable to watch cause vince brings a new sick highlight that makes me jump outta my seat every all star game....arenas....not so much.

i fthe east needs more size then surely bosh, dwight or the wallaces will get in? i mite be biasd... but i'd go for bosh either him or dwight. sod the wallaces, they'll probably get a ring at the end of the year, and it aint like sheed wanted to be there

There is no way in hell Gilbert will be starting. Heck, he only made it on the bench as an alternate, why would he then surpass everybody else and then start?

Originally posted by Myth
There is no way in hell Gilbert will be starting. Heck, he only made it on the bench as an alternate, why would he then surpass everybody else and then start?

WOW myth we agreed on something. anyways, i heard this when i was watching the nets vs pistons game, and the announcers said that flip saunders(if that is how 2 spell his name) is going to give vince the starting spot because he DESERVES it.

The question remains though, how is the line up of AI, Wade, Bron, Vince and Shaq gonna match up with the West? Vince is not a PF so how are they gonna start him?

Originally posted by koolruningz
The question remains though, how is the line up of AI, Wade, Bron, Vince and Shaq gonna match up with the West? Vince is not a PF so how are they gonna start him?

i dont know, i am just telling u what i heard and what probably will happen.

I didnt expect you to have an answer, i was just pointing out the problems that starting 5 would have.

Originally posted by koolruningz
The question remains though, how is the line up of AI, Wade, Bron, Vince and Shaq gonna match up with the West? Vince is not a PF so how are they gonna start him?

Thats why it didn't make sense. This will mean LeBron will be bumped to PF at the beginning of the game. I'm thinking that it won't take long for subs to come in to even out the size.

I agree that Vince is playing better than everybody else on the East bench, but it doesn't make sense. Thats why I figured they could make a case for one of the Wallace's to start since they are on the Pistons. I say start Ben Wallace to guard Duncan because you still couldn't argue that Wallace doesn't deserve to start. Ben Wallace is a C in a PF's body anyway.

I agree Myth its nothing against Carter (who is playing well enough to start) it just common sense to match big man against big man.

IMO, Myth's list very closely resembles mine. However, I'd live Russell off and put Duncan on. And I wouldn't have Julius Erving on. Though I do agree with him, that finding a 10th would be incredibly difficult to do.

either way, I CANNOT WAIT for the all star festivities to begin... a lot of big name players and all stars participating on saturday and sunday night. by the way, for all the raptor fans, mike james has decided to enter the 3 point shootout.

Originally posted by koolruningz
I didnt expect you to have an answer, i was just pointing out the problems that starting 5 would have.

u didnt just state a problem, its was a question, i gave an answer that i could because i was the only one to say that vince is going to be in the starting lineup instead of arenas.

Originally posted by BobbyD
IMO, Myth's list very closely resembles mine. However, I'd live Russell off and put Duncan on. And I wouldn't have Julius Erving on. Though I do agree with him, that finding a 10th would be incredibly difficult to do.

Russell was a for sure for me. Duncan, Malone, and Stockton were all close for me as the #10 man.

Originally posted by tanjot
u didnt just state a problem, its was a question, i gave an answer that i could because i was the only one to say that vince is going to be in the starting lineup instead of arenas.

I think the thing was, he wasn't asking you or anybody on here for an explanation. He's questioning in the sense that it is questionable to put Carter in the line-up. Therefore, it really was more of a statement.

Thanks Myth, it wasnt a question as such i said " The question remains though" meaning there is a question of how that starting line up would work. I didnt mean for you to take it so literally, i will be clearer in the future.

just go to this link, and i know no one else will argue as much as they r now...http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1139982413305540.xml&coll=1

You mistake arguing for having genuine concerns about match ups. If Vince starts i wish him well trying to keep Timmy off the offensive glass.

i do suppose that allstar games... i dont think anyone does care about the match ups. it makes sense to have one of the wallaces starting or bosh... i think lebron versus duncan will be good, height versus speed. and carter versus macgrady is always fun to watch. but dammit.... i want bosh in it starting!!!

Since Flip wants to put all the Pistons at once (and not show favoritism by starting his own men), I say start Bosh or Howard. Then sub Vince in with the 4 Pistons having Vince fill in for Prince.

Its not that I don't think Vince is playing like an all-star starter, because he is, its all about match ups. Afterall, would Vince really complain about being the 5th Piston in a sense?

it is what it is....

so he did start afterall, although he had a very dissapointing performance, going in for two monster slams and hitting back rim on both...thats embaressing, but not nearly as embaressing as a regular season home game where kobe missed a wide open basic dunk with no teammates or opponents anywhere near em.

I remember Jordan missing a breakaway dunk against the Lakers in 92, does that relate to Vince's missed dunks to?

Originally posted by tanjot
so he did start afterall, although he had a very dissapointing performance, going in for two monster slams and hitting back rim on both...thats embaressing, but not nearly as embaressing as a regular season home game where kobe missed a wide open basic dunk with no teammates or opponents anywhere near em.

Actually more people watched the all-star game and Vince knows it, so it was probably more embarrassing in Vince's situation.

if you are going to dunk on a breakaway or an open lane, make it a spectacular dunk..and thats what vince tried to do, his dunks were MUCH harder than the dunk kobe missed on a breakaway, and by harder i mean difficult and stronger, the first one he missed nearly hit the scoreboard...thats a lot of power incase u did not know, chris bosh could have made the dunk kobe missed, thats how basic it was.

Originally posted by koolruningz
I remember Jordan missing a breakaway dunk against the Lakers in 92, does that relate to Vince's missed dunks to?


i remember jordan missing a dunk on a breakaway in the all star game when he was with the wizards in 2002. he did not try to go for one in his final all star game when vince gave up his starting spot to him in the final minutes.

by final minutes i mean the final minutes b4 the all star game began.

Originally posted by tanjot
if you are going to dunk on a breakaway or an open lane, make it a spectacular dunk..and thats what vince tried to do, his dunks were MUCH harder than the dunk kobe missed on a breakaway, and by harder i mean difficult and stronger, the first one he missed nearly hit the scoreboard...thats a lot of power incase u did not know, chris bosh could have made the dunk kobe missed, thats how basic it was.

I think we are smart enough to understand what you meant be harder but thanks anyway.
A dunk is worth 2pts whether its a 360, through the legs, windmill off the glass or a basic throwdown. Same with a miss.
What do you have against Bosh now? Dude is a pure baller and an athletic freak.

Originally posted by koolruningz
I think we are smart enough to understand what you meant be harder but thanks anyway.
A dunk is worth 2pts whether its a 360, through the legs, windmill off the glass or a basic throwdown. Same with a miss.
What do you have against Bosh now? Dude is a pure baller and an athletic freak.

there you go again...changing the topic and overexaggerating the topic, when did i say i have anything against bosh?? i said "even" he could have made the dunk kobe missed because he is a PF, and PFs are not known for their hops. just trying to get him into the conversation.

kemp was a powerforward... and he dunked on every *****! in his prime anyways lol him and parton were a classic two punch

Originally posted by tanjot
there you go again...changing the topic and overexaggerating the topic, when did i say i have anything against bosh?? i said "even" he could have made the dunk kobe missed because he is a PF, and PFs are not known for their hops. just trying to get him into the conversation.

Coming from the king of changing the topic i'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

Originally posted by tanjot
if you are going to dunk on a breakaway or an open lane, make it a spectacular dunk..and thats what vince tried to do, his dunks were MUCH harder than the dunk kobe missed on a breakaway, and by harder i mean difficult and stronger, the first one he missed nearly hit the scoreboard...thats a lot of power incase u did not know, chris bosh could have made the dunk kobe missed, thats how basic it was.

I don't know if that was a response to me, Kool, or just a general statement. But if it was a response to me, then you missed what I was saying.

Originally posted by darth_royke
kemp was a powerforward... and he dunked on every *****! in his prime anyways lol him and parton were a classic two punch

i know there have been PFs that have been known for their hops, but there are not many in todays game...and bosh is not known for his hops.

There are plenty of PF's that are known for their hops its just that they are so tall anyway dunking looks easy. Amare, Howard, KG, Bosh, Brand and J.O. to name a few are all great leapers at the PF position. Its only because they make dunking look so easy compared to the SG and PG that can dunk that you think they are "not known for their hops" (i have used quote marks so you cant accuse me of over exaggerating).

you wont really know if a pf is good with hops unless they had to dunk on a 12ft rim... then you'd see they could. but why would they risk jumping higher with more chance to injure themselves?

k. i c ur point. good point.

no more comments or opinions on top 10 all time??

i would also like to know who you think is the best player in todays game..and i dont mean just stats, like kobe gets by constantly hogging. i mean as a player, someone that gets stats and at the same time does or makes a strong effort to make their teammates better.

Originally posted by tanjot
i would also like to know who you think is the best player in todays game..and i dont mean just stats, like kobe gets by constantly hogging. i mean as a player, someone that gets stats and at the same time does or makes a strong effort to make their teammates better.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t366980.html

Originally posted by koolruningz
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t366980.html

i dont know wtf you were trying to say there or if you were trying to act smart by showing me the first page of this thread...but i asked who you think the best player is in particular...so answer the question if you want to because what you just posted did not make any sense.

It was actually a link to another thread where we have discussed who the best current NBA players are, why would i post a link to this thread? Maybe it would have made sense if you'd taken the time to read it properly.
The reason i posted the link was to save repeating the same stuff again in this thread. Does that make sense to you or would you like me to draw you a diagram?

Originally posted by koolruningz
It was actually a link to another thread where we have discussed who the best current NBA players are, why would i post a link to this thread? Maybe it would have made sense if you'd taken the time to read it properly.
The reason i posted the link was to save repeating the same stuff again in this thread. Does that make sense to you or would you like me to draw you a diagram?

omg. lol. u crack me up...like i was forced to repeat, i said the best player in the nba today, not the top 10 players..i wanted opinions on who and why...not a list of players that are many times in random order.

Its really not that different to the top 10 current players is it? Why not ask the question in that thread instead of the one about legends of yesteryear?

since you want to make it so complicated...fine. happy?

lets continue.........???

Originally posted by tanjot
i would also like to know who you think is the best player in todays game..and i dont mean just stats, like kobe gets by constantly hogging. i mean as a player, someone that gets stats and at the same time does or makes a strong effort to make their teammates better.

under your standards, 2 time mvp steve nash by far.

Just goes to show that those standards are extremely flawed.

Nash is not the best player in the league, that was my point.

oh, then who you think is?

Vince Carter or Jason Kidd.

are you here just to fool around and mess this up? because if you are, go to the NFL thread, because you're not funny.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
oh, then who you think is?

I'll admit that im a bit biased being a Laker fan but Kobe proved to me anyway that he is the best player in the game last season.
The only player to be on the all NBA 1st team offense and defense, plus the other huge milestones he achieved (81pts, 63 in 3 quarters, 35ppg etc). That coupled with the way he involved his teammates in the playoffs sealed it for me.

Before last season i would have said KG was the most complete.

Nash won the MVP and is a great player but his lack of any defensive qualities mean he cant be called the best player imo.

even though nash isnt such a great defender, and even though i think many previous awards were given to undeserving players, i think this was a good pick. steve nash virtually metamorphed the suns. think about it, when marbury led the suns, you would say "pheonix suns, who are they? i think they're a basketball team in the nba, but im not sure. i better check." but now, with the addition of only nash, ok boris diaw too, but the reason he improved so much is because of... you guessed it, nash. AND ALSO, even with the loss of AMARE STOUDAMIRE, nash carries the suns to the conference finals. AND if they didnt run out of gas at the end against a bigger and stronger mavs squad with a little better BENCH production, i think they could have made it to the finals. So, without a doubt, nash made all his teammates better. (as for stephon, he makes all his teams worse)

im not a suns fan, im a nets fan, but steve nash, hands down is the well deserved mvp. im sorry, but kobe, yeah he scored 81 and yeah i agree that he is an amazing spirited talent, but then again, all his teammates got worse that year, and think about it, he broke up the lakers by being a tad bit on the selfish side.

I've had the "Kobe broke up the Lakers" argument too many times to go over it again, so i'll just say you should listen to other sources then BSPN.

As for the rest of your post, you basically summed up why Nash won the MVP. That doesnt mean he is the best player in the NBA, just the most valuable on the winning team.

In terms of ability i would put Kobe, KG, Bron, Wade, Duncan, T-Mac, Artest (when he's taken his medication), Carter, Brand and Arenas ahead of Nash. Im not denying Nash's contributions to the Suns and no doubt he carried them far but any pass first PG would flourish in that offense.

Anyway im not knocking your opinion, i just dont agree.

edit: By the way, Smush Parker - career year, Chris Mihm - career year, Brian Cook - career year, Luke Walton - career year. What do they all have in common? They all played with Kobe Bryant last season.

no, i dont just take espn's word for it. i think and analyze too. i know you're a laker fan, and you're sick and tired of your favorite player between criticized, but it's the truth. kobe did break them up, and it cant be denied. people didnt start hating him for nothing.

what do you mean by better player? that's too vague. do you mean athleticism or skill or finesse or what? because saying nash is just the most valuable on his team is not true. he has plently of skills. did you see him dribble pass defenders and throw a behind the back pass to his teammate, or make a spin move combined with a double crossover to create his open shot? he may be a pass first pg, but he scores a lot too. yeah, kobe can hit the fadeaway 3, because hes more athletic, and lebron and wade can drive dunk, because they're more athletic, and duncan can hit the bank, because hes the only one who practices it, but when you say "more ability," there are millions of abilities in basketball. you cant just say that kobe is better because hes more athletic or he can drive to the basket better. steve nash and kobe are completely different, but in my opinion, steve nash is more skilled than kobe. now, dont disagree and say kobe gets more rebounds or more points or more blocks or steals. thats because hes more athletic and taller and bigger and longer. if steve nash had kobe's body with the same skills, he would completely dominate.

btw, those laker members you mentioned all had career years, because they got more minutes, not because they played with kobe. smush parker, for instance, didnt play at all in detroit or phoenix, but STARTED for the lakers. mihm, too. you tell me, how does kobe trying to reach 81 points by himself make his teammates better? it makes them worse. they lose their confidence and hope. i bet if smush parker started for a different team, his stats would be even higher.

Not true i watch every Laker game and most of Smush Parker's points came from Kobe drawing the defense and kicking out to him for wide open threes. Brian Cook's pet play is the pick and pop which he runs with Kobe for a wide open jumper. Chris Mihm has got plenty of open looks from the attention Kobe draws, last season he improved his hands and finishing skills and averaged more pts as a result. Kobe would have averaged a whole lot more assists if he had better shooters than Sasha Vujacic to pass to, this season hopefully that will change with the addition of Vlade Rad.

Im not saying Kobe is a better player because he is more athletic, im saying it because he has a more complete game. His athleticism gives him an advantage but that could be said for Jordan, Dr J, Baylor, Wade, Bron, KG etc to. You cant just discount athleticism, its part of their game. Thats why Jordan will always be looked at as a better player than Bird. Kobe plays great defense, Nash doesnt. Nash may be a better and more willing passer but he also needs teammates who can convert, otherwise whats the point?

I have seriously done the Shaq and Kobe feud thing to death and i cant be bothered going over it again. I would suggest getting hold of the book "The Show" by Ronald Lazenby, it tells a very different story by someone who was there through the whole drama. Not some media hack who just wants to start controversy. Kobe is not blameless but to act like he was the only factor is naive.

Good to have a civil discussion about hoops though, even if we do have different views. Hopefully people dont mind that its off topic from the thread title.

Peace.

i know you cant just omit athleticism, but most of kobe's advantages come from pure athleticsm. kobe is not a better defender because of more knowledge of defense and better fundamentals or something...hes more athletic and can stay in front of quicker players. he has longer arms to steal the ball...he has more height to block the shot. Its like saying lebron is better than iverson because he gets more blocks more rebounds or even points, hypathetically. in my opinion, if iverson had lebron's body, he would be the most dominant player alive. on the contrary, if some centers were a little shorter and a little lighter, then they wouldnt even be in the nba. so you have to factor in all that. in my opinion, nash dribbles more efficiently and skillfully, passes to the right teammate at the right time with style, and shoots a better fg and 3pt fg and ft percentage than kobe. dont believe that stat? then check both their last seasons online. those are the only stats you can really compare between them, because height and athleticsm dont factor into it.

so if you're thinking, "who could win one on one," ok then kobe's better. but who's better 5 on 5 in a real nba game, nash. otherwise, you cant really compare apples to oranges. nash is pg, and kobe's a sg.

ok, i'll stop talking about the kobe vs. shaq thing.

nice debate man, and peace: no hard feelings between our arguments.

Kobe is one of the most fundamentally sound players in the league, offensively and defensively. For example look at his footwork on most of his post moves before he has to rely on his athleticism to get the shot off. That coupled with his athleticism makes him the best player in the league imo.
You cant say "if Nash was more athletic he would be the best" because he isnt. Like i said thats why its Jordan >>> Bird, because Bird was great fundamentally but Jordan was great fundamentally and athletically.
You may think that Nash is more valuable in a 5 on 5 game because he shares the ball more but thats his job, Kobe's is to score. If you put all the factors into what makes the best player in the NBA, Nash would not come out tops. He is a great player in the right system to maximise his skills.

Nash is fundamentally sound in a different way. he dribbles like his hands are ball magnets. he never puts his head down like kobe sometimes does and never tries to force a shot over a double team. instead, he knows where everybody is and when the defender thinks he has him cornered, nash, in the blink of an eye, is either wide open, or his teammate has the ball wide open. so, nash has great footwork, too. and his shooting stroke is almost flawless. you have to think about the position. nash doesnt guard the players who have the ball the most. but kobe, he guards guys like lebron, vince, wade, who are known for going one on one. so that factors into getting more steals, blocks, etc. nash is a pretty good defender too, but nobody sees him defend much.

you also have to look at the efficiency. nash's percentages are higher and turnovers are lower. he is also more consistent with his #s, while kobe scores 81 shooting at 50% one time and scores 51 at 27% another.

also you cant say that team success has nothing to do with who's the best player. that's why you and many others think jordan was the best, because he won 6 championships. teamwise, nash's crushes kobe's, and in terms of leadership, nash is 100x better. nash's teammates excel and follow his footsteps. kobe's however are on one path while hes on another. that's when he doesnt play well, his team bombs.

nash doesnt make fadeaways, because he doesnt need to shoot them. he finds a way to get either himself or his teammate open. also if you're going to omit nash's assists and say its his job is to dish and assist, im going to omit kobe's rebounds and blocks and say, with his athleticism, its kobe's job to rebound and block. if you dont want that then, oh yeah i forgot, nash kills kobe in assists.

First off defensively im not talking about steals and blocks, im talking about basic defense. Moving your feet and keeping your man in front, Nash has terrible lateral quickness and that will always make him a poor defender. Kobe is an elite perimeter defender due in part to his athleticism plus his skill level and desire to defend. If it was just athleticism then Bron, Wade, T-Mac and Carter would be lock down defenders to.

Nash actually averaged a shade over Kobe in TO's last year, but im not trying to use stats to prove my point. I personally think the best player should be determined by skill level and thats why i chose Kobe.
Im not denying Nash is a better teammate and looks to pass more or babysits Raja's kids, in terms of skill and ability he isnt in the top 5 players in the league imho.

The Suns are better than the Lakers, thats why they crush us. In the playoffs our gameplan was working until the Suns made a few adjustments to nullify our advantage in the post. In the end the better team wins in a seven game series and thats what happened. This all happened with Kobe playing more like Nash and distributing the ball, in the end the Suns had more potent weapons.

To me your argument is solid as to why Nash won the MVP, he lead his team (which is strong btw) to a great record and deep playoff run. But so did Brand, Dirk, Bron and especially Wade.
I just cant see how he is a better player than Kobe though, they both have their strengths offensively but defensively it isnt even close.

If you dont want me to use stats, team success, or leadership skills in my argument, then how do i prove that nash is better. previously you mentioned "better" player meaning more complete. if you asked me, i wouldnt say kobe is more complete, because there are millions of intangibles that go in nash's favor. you cant just say "kobe is good at offense and defense while nash is only good at offense, that makes kobe better." thats too simple and naive. then you said better means more skillful. again, i would go with nash. why? because your definition and my definition of "better" player are totally different. thats the only reason we're arguing right now. you have not admitted yet, but basically, your standard of "better" is "one on one" and yeah kobe would kill nash one on one. he has quicker feet to stay with his "man," only one man. and he has the skill and athleticsm to score. but to me, "most valuable player" and "best" player are interchangable. because real basketball is a 5 on 5 team sport, not one on one. so, team success and leadership must be included under my criteria.

i'll give kobe defense over nash, but your treating this one factor like it counts for 60% of your opinion. plus, nash is just as knowledgable and skillful as kobe at team defense. and why are the suns better than the lakers? where did the chemistry come from? not from marbury...yep, nash. talent wise, lakers=suns. but chemistry and unity wise, suns>lakers. to me, defense is the forgotten half of basketball when you're talking about team philosophy, but when you compare two players, its not nearly half. you said it, its about who has more skill. defense doesnt take much skill. its about quickness and desire. (thats why bruce bowen is great defender) and yep kobe is quicker and stronger and longer to keep up with his opponent. but if you're implying that kobe has more desire than nash, we're in for a LONG argument. nash's stats, team success, and respect didnt only come from talent and skill. no way jose. nash is one of the most determined, focused, and no-nonsense players in the nba.

at the same time, you're completely ignoring my arguments about efficiency and shooting percentages. and ok nash did average a fraction more turnovers last season, but career wise, nash has turned it over much less than kobe. so, i still dont clearly understand your definition of "better" player. but, from what you explained so far, it clearly shows you're talking about "one on one" and if thats the case, ok kobe's better. but under my standard, real basketball 5 on 5, with leadership, efficiency, team success, fundamentals, cohesiveness, no-nonsense, textbook basketball: nash>kobe

Bryant is a much better player than Nash.

Easy said and done.

Doesnt mean that Nash isnt an great player, just not as good as Bryant.
Nash didnt have an 87 assist game.

So by your definition would you say that Magic Johnson was better than Micheal Jordan? Because he was better in all those categories you mentioned.

No way the Suns and Lakers are equal talent wise, going by the playoffs last season:

Nash > Parker
Kobe > Bell
Diaw > Walton
Odom = Marion
Thomas > Brown

Thats 3 out of 5 going to the Suns and 1 even. The Lakers bench is not even worth mentioning outside of George and Turiaf (who was a rookie).

Its quite obvious that we are using different criteria for judging who is the best player, which is fine as neither of us is an authority on the matter - its just our opinion. For me they have an equal amount of skills offensively albeit different, so if that balances them out i turn to the other side of the ball - defense.
You obviously value contributions to the team more and i can see your point, but Jordan was still a better player than Magic (coming from a Laker fan thats hard to say) before he won his first title in 91 because he was a great defender.

Like i say its all opinions and im not trying to change your mind, the question was raised when you asked me who i thought was the best player in the league - Kobe is still my answer, for the reasons i have gone over.

Nice debate though man, its nice to have another fan around that knows their hoops.

Originally posted by Smasandian
Bryant is a much better player than Nash.

Easy said and done.

Doesnt mean that Nash isnt an great player, just not as good as Bryant.
Nash didnt have an 87 assist game.

what the hell are you talking about? are you drunk? who in the world had an 87 assist basketball game. also, when it comes to assists, NASH BEATS KOBE, end of story. at least kool and i had backup to prove our point. "Easy said and done," no it is not easy said and done, thats the whole point of this thread. its to discuss with facts and evidence, not to be subjective and just say, "kobe's better cause i said so."

this is to koolruningz:

ok, then i guess our opinions cant really be compared. so, to conclude, awesome conversation. it's been a pleasure. and maybe we can begin a new debate.

about magic vs. jordan, it may sound ridiculous to you, but to me its close. i mean jordan to me was the most popular obviously because everyone knows his name. he was the most clutch by far. and ok, i'll give him defense over magic. but as i told you my standard, magic strides under it.

im a person thats not mainstream. (and im not saying that you are) but you know kobe, lebron, jordan, etc. alota mainstream typical fans say they are the best without looking deeper and proving it. and indeed, i do think nash is better, but i totally respect your opinion cause you suplied your evidence and details. i just hate it when people say "A" is better than "B" because of all the hype.

about the lakers vs. suns, ok the suns have more talent, but the lakers have alot more height. you cant deny that.

Nothing would make me happier than Magic to be considered the GOAT, he is certainly my favourite player and the reason i started following the Lakers in the early 80's. That title goes to Jordan though, for the same reasons i pick Kobe over Nash.

Also if i was swayed by the hype bandwagon i'd be singing Wade's praises to whoever would listen, cause he is definitely the media darling right now. Kobe is the opposite, some of that he has brought on himself - some is unwarranted.

Lastly i wouldnt dream of saying the Suns had more height than the Lakers, that was the focus of the Lakers gameplan. But that height advantage means nothing when you dont have big men who can convert (yes Kwame "Stone Hands" Brown im talking about you). Odom was having a great series until the Suns starting sending double teams at him in the post, Mihm was injured and Brian Cook is not an inside player.

Anyway it was fun debating with you, hope to see you around when the season starts up again.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
what the hell are you talking about? are you drunk? who in the world had an 87 assist basketball game. also, when it comes to assists, NASH BEATS KOBE, end of story. at least kool and i had backup to prove our point. "Easy said and done," no it is not easy said and done, thats the whole point of this thread. its to discuss with facts and evidence, not to be subjective and just say, "kobe's better cause i said so."

Ummm yeah, its called a joke. Obviously nonbody had 87 assists, but Bryant had 81 points which is amazing while Nash, in respective stats never had an amazing assits game, which he is known for.

Second, Nash was never considered an great player until 2 years ago. He wasnt even well known in the mainstream fan base until he came onto the Suns. So how would he be considered the Top 10.

Nash is a great player no doubt about it and its worty of being called the Top 10 best players in the league...but in history? Yea right.
He hasnt won any championships and hasnt been dominate all of his career.

I love seeing Nash play and as an Canadian, I'm proud that he won two MVP's, but I dont think he is in the Top 10 of all time and its pretty ridicolous to think he should be in the same league as Jordon and others.

Unless your arguing that he is the best player....which he still isnt. A great player but not the best.

yeah, that joke was so funny i forgot to laugh.

you must be lost or something because we werent talking about nash being the best of all time, what are you crazy? we were talking about who's better: kobe or nash. and no, your simple analysis is not going to convince me. one 81 point game doesnt mean anything to this debate. i already admitted that kobe kills nash in scoring. plus, its alot harder to have an extreme assist night, because your teammate has to make the shot in order for it to count. its alot different from scoring, where you can have an off shooting night, but still go to the line 20 times and score 40 points.

I dont really care if its an simple analysis, its true. Or I can just spout useless stats to make a complex analysis. It doesnt matter.

I didnt realized it was just between both. But it doesnt matter, the fact remains I still think Bryant is a better player.

Better scorer, more dominate, better skilled, better all around basketball player and he has proven himself for the past 10 years as one of the best players. Do I have to go into detail about something that is already an fact?

Nash is the best PG, but until recently, he was just a very good point guard.

Also, you say its very hard to get an extreme assist night, but couldnt you say, its very easy to get an extreme assist night if the team is on fire?

A high scorer is all about the scorer. He makes the plays, he shoots the ball and he beats defenders.

I think Nash is a great player and he deserved the MVP's, but overall, I still think Bryant is the better basketball player.

i think kobe is a better player.... but i tell you what.. you ask players around the league who they prefer on their team? nash.

kobe is far more athletic, better defender and offensively scoring much better. but nash brings amazing passing, decent getting to the basket ability and good shooting to the table.

kobe is a better player, but i'd prefer nash on my team for what he brings and how he improves everyone he plays with

Oh yea, but thats right, but thats not really the issue.

It's who's better at playing basketball.

i guess it depends what you value most as a person. someone who can score on anyone and dominate games with scoring and good defence, or someone who can make any player look good with deft passing and the ability to score if team-mates cant get it going.

If your making an team.

But Nash is pointless to have if he doesnt have a guy like Kobe Bryant to score. The end result in basketball is getting the ball through the hope, and no matter how good the PG is...you still need some decent scorers.

Nash has Stoudmire, Marion and an boatload of good shooters, if he didnt have them, he is useless. Nash is a good scorer, but not good enough to consistently win games with shooting.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand can score any time he wants too.

And that's why I think he is better basketball player than Nash.

And you post didnt really paint a good picture for Nash.

Originally posted by Smasandian
If your making an team.

But Nash is pointless to have if he doesnt have a guy like Kobe Bryant to score. The end result in basketball is getting the ball through the hope, and no matter how good the PG is...you still need some decent scorers.

Nash has Stoudmire, Marion and an boatload of good shooters, if he didnt have them, he is useless. Nash is a good scorer, but not good enough to consistently win games with shooting.

Kobe Bryant on the other hand can score any time he wants too.

And that's why I think he is better basketball player than Nash.

And you post didnt really paint a good picture for Nash.

Not true, nash doesnt need someone like bryant. look what nash did to boris diaw, who in my opinion, is not a really good player. he made him the most improved, and hello? amare didnt play at all last year expect a couple of games. look at the suns without amare last year. only marion was a decent player. the reason the suns were so good at shooting was because nash passed to them at the right time to get an open look. yes, any player shoots better uncontested than contested. so, nash is a better player, and as i said about a million times to kool, my definition of better player and your definition are probably different. "nash is pointless," gimme a break, have you watched his games? he can do alot more than dish the ball. i dont want to explain everything to you that i already explained to kool, so nash>kobe.

another thing, it doesnt matter if a team catches fire, because you still shoot only like 60-70% from the field. what does that mean? almost half of nash's passes are still missed. also, if nash had someone like bryant, he would not get as much assists, because kobe always dribbles and creates his own shot when he gets the ball. when your teammate gets the ball he has to shoot it soon in order for the assist to count.

On a seriou not, the best possible team ever would be Big Ben, Steva Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion and Dwyane Wayde.

You can't get a better team.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
On a seriou not, the best possible team ever would be Big Ben, Steva Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion and Dwyane Wayde.

You can't get a better team.

hello? we're talking about who's better; kobe or nash. im not repeating myself for the 9999th time, read the thread before you reply.

So you can't make a better team? That's what I thought.

i dont care, we're not talking about that. i dont want to argue about something so off topic

Yep, that's what I thought.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
On a seriou not, the best possible team ever would be Big Ben, Steva Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion and Dwyane Wayde.

You can't get a better team.



Put the pipe down man, that crack will mess you up!

I could name a Lakers only team that would destroy that team:

Magic
Kobe
Baylor
Wilt
Kareem

It did occur to me that you were just posting stupid comments to get attention, but i decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and respond.

you cant get enough of the lakers, can you?

I meant current players jackass!!!

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
you cant get enough of the lakers, can you?

Thats the team i know best.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I meant current players jackass!!!

Maybe you should have said that genius. You said "ever" to me that means all time.

Anyway i'd take

Paul or Hinrich
Kobe
LeBron
KG
Yao

over your team. I would have choosen Nash for PG but you beat me to it.

you said "best possible team ever," so why cant he pick previous players? and btw, 5 current players that will beat yours:

iverson, lebron, garnett, duncan, and shaq. now shut up, im not going to reply if you keep doing this.

You need diversity in your team. You can't have 5 Bryant's, don't be silly.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
Not true, nash doesnt need someone like bryant. look what nash did to boris diaw, who in my opinion, is not a really good player. he made him the most improved, and hello? amare didnt play at all last year expect a couple of games. look at the suns without amare last year. only marion was a decent player. the reason the suns were so good at shooting was because nash passed to them at the right time to get an open look. yes, any player shoots better uncontested than contested. so, nash is a better player, and as i said about a million times to kool, my definition of better player and your definition are probably different. "nash is pointless," gimme a break, have you watched his games? he can do alot more than dish the ball. i dont want to explain everything to you that i already explained to kool, so nash>kobe.

In terms of teammate, yeah I would rather have Nash.

But overall, I still going to say Kobe is the better basketball player.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
You need diversity in your team. You can't have 5 Bryant's, don't be silly.



Ok i tried to take you seriously but now im convinced you are just after attention, good luck with that.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
You need diversity in your team. You can't have 5 Bryant's, don't be silly.

what do you mean i cant. you never mentioned a limitation of players. besides, i didnt pick 5 bryants, i picked iverson, lebron, garnett, duncan, and shaq.

Originally posted by Smasandian
In terms of teammate, yeah I would rather have Nash.

But overall, I still going to say Kobe is the better basketball player.

ok, i never said your opinion was wrong. im just expressing mine after you said, "kobe is better, EASY SAID AND DONE."

OK.

'Paul or Hinrich
Kobe
LeBron
KG
Yao'

No defencive presence Koolz.

'you said "best possible team ever," so why cant he pick previous players? and btw, 5 current players that will beat yours:

iverson, lebron, garnett, duncan, and shaq. now shut up, im not going to reply if you keep doing this.'

No playmakers.

No defensive presence?
Both Paul and Hinrich are terrific defenders at the PG spot.
Kobe i have already spoken on.
Bron? ok he has a way to go.
KG? are you nuts? He is consistently one of the best defensive big men every year.
Yao is also a decent shot blocker and in the second half of the season was putting up better #'s than any center in the league.

Now lets look at your team defensively seeing as its so important to you,
Nash - not really know for his D is he?
Wade - No, not yet.
Marion - Good rebounder and shot blocker, but cant handle stronger players like LeBron.
Amare - You really want to compare his defense with KG's?
Big Ben - The only elite defender on your team.

Keep up with the dumbass act though, its entertaining and helps pass the time until the season starts.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'Paul or Hinrich
Kobe
LeBron
KG
Yao'

No defencive presence Koolz.

'you said "best possible team ever," so why cant he pick previous players? and btw, 5 current players that will beat yours:

iverson, lebron, garnett, duncan, and shaq. now shut up, im not going to reply if you keep doing this.'

No playmakers.

No Playmakers?????

Your post doesnt even deserve a response. once i explain why you're wrong, you'll say something stupid again.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
No Playmakers?????

Your post doesnt even deserve a response. once i explain why you're wrong, you'll say something stupid again.

That's right, at least Koolz has Paul.

yeah, but i have iverson, who has been very well known as the playmaker of the court, if you know anything about him.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
yeah, but i have iverson, who has been very well known as the playmaker of the court, if you know anything about him.

No. Iverson is a terrible passer.

iverson averaged 7.4 assists per game last season and was 8th in the league in assists, buddy boy. you obviously dont know much about him.

He also passes way too muc. The quality of his passing is terrible.

again, you dont know anything about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Iverson

'known for his terrible passing'

I have provided proof, you have not.

First of all, i just proved to you that he was 8th in assists with 7.4 per game last season. If you dont call that proof, then what do you call it?

Second, your information from WIKIPEDIA, the place where anybody can edit the information, is not factual, its an opinion from someone whose probably an idiot and doesnt know anything about iverson, like you. iverson is one of the best passers and playmakers, considering he has no decent players to pass it to.

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
First of all, i just proved to you that he was 8th in assists with 7.4 per game last season. If you dont call that proof, then what do you call it?

Second, your information from WIKIPEDIA, the place where anybody can edit the information, is not factual, its an opinion from someone whose probably an idiot and doesnt know anything about iverson, like you. iverson is one of the best passers and playmakers, considering he has no decent players to pass it to.

He is fearless, especially for his size; and while I am a fan, I would not consider one of the 10 best players ever in NBA history.

That wasnt the argument Bobby, the thread got a little off topic.

i havent really been paying attention, but if you guys want to talk about the top 10 players in history, im all for it.

That was my list on page 1. I cant think of any changes i'd make now. What about yours Rec?

Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Reggie Miller, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, James Lafferty, Ben Wallace, Teyshaun Prince, Carmello Anthony, Spud webb.

I agree with you for the most part except for 3 players. I'd have to with David Robinson instead of Malone. Either Bob Cousy or Jerry West instead of Stockton. and i love Dr. J, but in the top 10 of all time, i dont know about that. So, i'd go with Patrick Ewing instead of him.

And in about a decade or whenever he retires, right now hes too young, but im going to knock out one from the current list and insert LeBron James because the guy is one of a kind, and hes been in the league for 3 years. I can already taste his potential. And the LBJ vs. Michael Jordan. LeBron is already showing that hes better individually. Jordan is better iconic wise AS OF NOW. But in a few years that can all change.

As a nets fan, i know im biased when i say this, but jason kidd, when he reitres, will be lingering around that group of names. throughout his illustrious career SO FAR: 76 triple-doubles and 4th overall in nba history. So, i wont forget to mention his name after he retires.

LBJ is already a legend but im curious to know how much of it is from the hype he has received. He is an amazing talent without a doubt and i have said many times that he could go on to be the GOAT, but he is hyped nearly as much as Jordan was and he's only just starting his career.

Im a big fan of Jerry West but i put Stockton in as he has the assist record and will go down as arguably the best PG ever (i would go with Magic, but i'd understand someone saying Stockton).

A case could easily be made for Robinson over Malone and Ewing over DrJ. Its the players like Jordan, Magic, Bird etc that should be on everyones list.

Kidd is one of my favorite players, i wonder just what heights he could have reached if he had a consistent jumper like Nash. Thats the only weakness in his game, other than that he rebounds like a PF, plays great defense and can run any kind of offense be it fast breaks or half court sets.
Do you live in NJ?

I live very close to NJ. I live in NY in a very small village right above New York City. So im close enough to 2 arenas, Madison Square Garden and Continental Airlines Arena. Though I really only go to nets games, because the knicks: they're undescribable, i'd be wasting my money to see one of their games.

Speaking of location, hey which part of New Zealand do you live in?

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Reggie Miller, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, James Lafferty, Ben Wallace, Teyshaun Prince, Carmello Anthony, Spud webb.

Originally posted by Sith'ari


yeah, whats your point? you made a list that makes no sense.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
jerry west
pete maravich
charles barkeley
Shaquille O'neal

Originally posted by RecSpecs110
I live very close to NJ. I live in NY in a very small village right above New York City. So im close enough to 2 arenas, Madison Square Garden and Continental Airlines Arena. Though I really only go to nets games, because the knicks: they're undescribable, i'd be wasting my money to see one of their games.

Speaking of location, hey which part of New Zealand do you live in?

Yeah the Knicks are a total mess. Hopefully they can get better this season, they seem more committed to playing defense this year with the signing of Jeffries and the "unusual" draft pick that was Balkman. But with players like Marbury and Francis in the backcourt its not looking good.

I live in a city called Hamilton which is about 2 hours south of Auckland.

Speaking of the draft, i screamed with laughter when the knicks chose balkman at 20, and who did my favorite team steal from them: marcus williams. hurray!

as long as the knicks are with marbury, they continue to suck, because its been a proven stat that which ever team marbury joins gets worse, and whichever team he leaves gets better. francis is a solid leader and much better PG than marbury in my opinion. and jeffries was a good choice, but if isiah and marbury continue with their strong "relationship," the knicks are going nowhere. the 2 hollow heads both kicked brown out, and isiah might the only coach who gets along with marbury. Lets wait and see. Argh, i cant wait until the season starts, its killing me man!

Problem with having Marbury and Francis starting is the one has to play SG, Marbury is too small and Francis cant shoot. I think they are better off having a starting line up of:
PG - Francis
SG - Crawford
SF - Jeffries
PF - Frye
C - Curry

Then you can have a 2nd unit of:
PG - Marbury
SG - Richardson
SF - Rose
PF - Lee
C - James

Thats not even taking into account players like Robinson, Mo Taylor and Malik Rose who could help a bit.
I cant see Marbury or Francis wanting to come off the bench though and you dont pay your back up PG 20 mill a year either.

Jeez thank god im not a Knicks fan right now.

yeah, marbury wouldnt accept not starting. it would be better if he left and robinson was the PG of the 2nd unit. Also, i would put taylor over frye and have frye over david lee.

this team really is a mess without a true nucleus. virtually every player came to the knicks 2 years ago or more recently.

i actually sorta liked the knicks back when they had houston, sprewell, camby, and mark jackson. but now, its just a mix of various other teams.

one thing about marbury... there was an allstar game he played in a few years ago... where him and AI caught fire. best i've ever seen him play. i think hes the player who needs spedific players around him to be able to do well. i dont think any of the knicks team are that good, they've got some young talent, granted. but no-one whos a proven talent

but in order for the knicks to have any shot at success, they need to get rid of marbury first. marbury/francis cannot coexist.

or francis. hes more likely to go as isiah is a big fan of marbury, so i wouldnt be surprised to see francis go for someone.

i do agree though, marbury has never been on a winning team... cept maybe for the wolves? not sure if they made the playoffs.

You have to wonder what Isiah was thinking when he brought Francis in though, if they'd just kept Hardaway on the books last year they'd be 20 mill out of the red this year. If Isiah is so in love with Marbury then Francis serves no purpose except having another albatross type contract that nobody else wants any part of. Its hard to imagine Larry Brown wanting Francis either, he has none of the qualities Brown likes in his players.
That said Isiah has made his bed and now he gets to lie in it. He put together the roster and no he has to find a way to bring them together. Its hard to see it working though, even though they have some talent the players just dont compliment each other.

this is it. isiah is in the spotlight with the mess he created. they'll give him 1 season to turn this around.

Originally posted by koolruningz
First off defensively im not talking about steals and blocks, im talking about basic defense. Moving your feet and keeping your man in front, Nash has terrible lateral quickness and that will always make him a poor defender. Kobe is an elite perimeter defender due in part to his athleticism plus his skill level and desire to defend. If it was just athleticism then Bron, Wade, T-Mac and Carter would be lock down defenders to.

Nash actually averaged a shade over Kobe in TO's last year, but im not trying to use stats to prove my point. I personally think the best player should be determined by skill level and thats why i chose Kobe.
Im not denying Nash is a better teammate and looks to pass more or babysits Raja's kids, in terms of skill and ability he isnt in the top 5 players in the league imho.

The Suns are better than the Lakers, thats why they crush us. In the playoffs our gameplan was working until the Suns made a few adjustments to nullify our advantage in the post. In the end the better team wins in a seven game series and thats what happened. This all happened with Kobe playing more like Nash and distributing the ball, in the end the Suns had more potent weapons.

To me your argument is solid as to why Nash won the MVP, he lead his team (which is strong btw) to a great record and deep playoff run. But so did Brand, Dirk, Bron and especially Wade.
I just cant see how he is a better player than Kobe though, they both have their strengths offensively but defensively it isnt even close.

ummm...i know he was the season mvp, but he lead his team past kobes lakers in the first round despite being down 3-1 at one point...and dont tell me kobe did not get any team support. if he can constantly hog the ball throughout the season, superior talent or not..supporting cast or no supporting cast, then he should be able to do it in the playoffs where it matters. if he was such a great player that could lead a team by himself, he sure as hell would not lose a playoff series after going up 3-1 no matter how good the team. face it, kobe is nothing without shaq. there was a time when people said..what kobe and shaq need is eachother...now no1 can say that because shaq just won his 4rth ring given a lot of credit to d-wade who also would not have been able to win it without shaq. shaq is not the main guy on the team, but he definitely opens up the floor and the paint for everyone, especially wade.

Welcome back tanjot, i've missed your Kobe bashing as much as i would an ingrown toenail.

Kobe is nothing without Shaq? Are you serious? Yeah you probably are, keep living in your fantasy land man. I hear they have Vince Carter flavored Ice Cream there.