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Setting is Geonosis Arena.

FFAs are always very hard to determine.

Are Mace, Grievous, and Yoda all from ROTS?

Yoda wins...

ROTJ Luke is the first to die, followed by GG.. then its Mace vs Yoda and Yoda wins that battle.

I'll say It's Mace 5/10, and Yoda the other 5/10

Yeah, that's exactly how I thought it would go too. I was just making sure that GG, Mace, and Yoda are ROTS. Luke is down 1st, then GG, then it would be a long battle between Mace and Yoda however Yoda comes out on top.

Hm... I thought Mace was the better fighter, but Yoda was stronger in the force itself... and yes they are all from ROTS, cept for Luke.

Make Yoda ESB. LOL

Good point. hes friken uber jedi in ROTS.

They lightsaber throw to different ppl at the same time. Everyone lose.

Ok, so it's down to Mace and Yoda. They are equal in lightsaber abilities (Mace might be a tiny bit better) however Yoda is better with the force. Yoda wins after a really long fight.

Nah. Yoda's the superior swordsman here by a hair. A Vaapad master of a very high calibre, Depa Billaba, couldn't touch Yoda with a lightsaber when she had two other Jedi assisting her. And this was an unarmed Yoda in a demonstration. The Yoda would wear Mace out with his agility and evasiveness while hammering him with lightsaber strikes. Even Mace wouldn't be able to stand up to that. By the end, you'd have a very tired, but victorious Yoda, being the last one standing.

Originally posted by Faunus
Nah. Yoda's the superior swordsman here by a hair. A Vaapad master of a very high calibre, Depa Billaba, couldn't touch Yoda with a lightsaber when she had two other Jedi assisting her. And this was an unarmed Yoda in a demonstration. The Yoda would wear Mace out with his agility and evasiveness while hammering him with lightsaber strikes. Even Mace wouldn't be able to stand up to that. By the end, you'd have a very tired, but victorious Yoda, being the last one standing.
Yoda would wear Mace out?? Are you kidding? Ataru is by far the more tiring form.

Yeah, when used by someone like Qui-Gon. Yoda doesn't even need to ignite his lightsaber here; he can simply dodge every single one of Mace's attacks. And after a few minutes of Vaapad fury, Mace would get tired. Then, Yoda would tear him apart.

Now, I think Mace would give Yoda an extremely hard fight. But Yoda's victory is pretty much ensured.

actually, I think you're assuming that Mace will be the aggressor. He's shown to be quite methodical in his style, and plays more defensively. Yoda may have been able to dodge like a demon, but that was being FULLY defensive. He cannot balance both at the same time.

Thats true. if you look at the Mace Vs. Palp match in Rots, you'll notice that Windu did almost know attacking at all.

Originally posted by Wesker
actually, I think you're assuming that Mace will be the aggressor. He's shown to be quite methodical in his style, and plays more defensively. Yoda may have been able to dodge like a demon, but that was being FULLY defensive. He cannot balance both at the same time.

Good point, actually. In that case, I can see this fight dragging on for a while.

yoda still kicks all there hienies, and mace being equal to yoda is like saying maul and palps were on the same level, now i admitt that mace is really really good, and would last longer than anybody against yoda, but he would never win, and he would probably never even touch yoda.

This will probably end up being 2 one on one duels with the winners having a battle.
Mace vs. Yoda = Yoda barely
Grievous vs. Luke = About tied
Yoda wins and then takes on whoever wins the Grievous vs. Luke battle and wins easily.

Actually, no matter what Yoda has an 80% chance of winning, Mace a 19% chance, Grievous and Luke each have a 1/2% chance.

But I know actually that Mace was supposed to be a better duelist and Yoda stronger in the force. I gice the fight to yoda though still. if this was a closed quarters arena it would be differant cause Yoda has to jump all over the frigan place to succesfully use his style. But in a wide open space i think Mace would tire out and eventulaly be overwhelmed.

Mace is not a better Duelist. Its pretty common knowledge that Yoda is the best at swordplay and Force abilities.

Vaapad is an extremely aggressive saber style. Have any of you read Shatterpoint? I'd assume you have, and if you have you'd realise how aggressive Mace gets. Hell, in Shatterpoint Mace himself says Depa once displayed Vaapad/ sword ability beyond even his own. And Depa PLUS 3 other Jedi couldn't even touch an unarmed Yoda. Its also no secret that Yoda is far superior on Force power then Mace is (as shown in his Duel with Palpatine).

Yoda wins this no problem. Luke as of ROTJ isn't even an issue and either Mace or Yoda would kill Grievous pretty quickly. It would come down to Yoda vs. Mace and if Yoda decided to go all out, Mace doesn't stand a chance. The only way Mace could win is if GG, Luke, and Mace stormed Yoda all at the same time and killed him, otherwise its Yoda hands down.

Erm... I HAVE read Shatterpoint, and I still think that Yoda doesn't definately "have" this. Mace was able to contend with and beat Sidious. Yoda was unable to adequately disable Sidious at all, let alone in the same timeframe. Therefore, why should I believe that Yoda will just trounce Mace with no problem at all?

See... I can apply that kind of logic too. The problem is that Depa and others couldn't hit Yoda because he was being fully defensive. But Ataru IS an offensive style. He won't have the same kind of defense in a saber battle because his form isn't made for that. His defensive will still be considerable, but nowhere near as good as that. Also, keep in mind that having other jedi nearby and trying to strike an agile three foot jedi master is a lot harder than duelling one on one with another jedi or a like mind and style. Imagine having those deadly glowsticks and trying to strike someone while trying not to strike two or three others. It's a messy situation where the jedi don't mesh well.

Secondly, Mace Windu is capable of both aggression and methodical fighting. Infact, I'd argue that Vaapad in essence is controlled aggression. Stover points this out many times during the novel. Mace has to walk a fine line with the darkness inside of him while resisting the darkness outside. The idea of him challenging Yoda, a sentient he knows and respects, and just hammering away at him recklessly is a bit foolish to me. Dooku was fully able to contend with Yoda -very- well for some time, as was Sidious, and the latter in particular isn't a saber heavy in combat.

As for the match? I could care less to venture a guess. I just wanted to get the point out there that Yoda, while good, isn't a sabergod.

The Yoda/ Sidious fight was an "all out" fight between the two of them. Lucas himself has said (in the DVD commentary) that Palpatine was faking the force part of the battle. He could have toppled Mace with the force had he wanted too. However, in the Yoda fight, Palpatine DOES go all out with the force and Yoda is at least equal to Palpatine (possibly better). We have to remember, this isnt a "sabers only fight" and in a force battle, Mace gets owned. As well, Saber styles are very important in a fight, Vaapad could just have been the 'better form' to fight Sidious, where as Ataru was less effective. (OR Palps wasn't trying his best in the Mace duel but I wont get into that)



Perhaps, but if it ends up one on one then Yoda could just turn off his saber (or keep it on but not use it offensively) and jump around and let Mace try and hit him for a while tiring him out. Again this isnt a straight up "lightsaber duel", its just "Yoda vs. Windu" (not including GG and Luke who would die and are not important anyways). Yoda could just go into full defense mode and simply have his saber on, and use it to parry a stray attack now and then, but otherwise just jump around Mace and let him tire. Which, if Mace goes fully into "Vaapad mode" will happen after a while, seeing as it makes the person want to fight and be aggressive.



Agreed, but "Controlled aggression" is still aggression none the less. If we are taking into account character sympathies like "The idea of him challenging Yoda, a sentient he knows and respects, and just hammering away at him recklessly is a bit foolish to me" then we might as well just not even be talking about this, seeing as if we take the character traits into account then all 3 (Luke, Mace, and Yoda) would just kill GG and leave. But thats not really the purpose. To make this even worth talking about we have to assume that the combatants are going all out, with no character sympathy. And if we do then Mace would go into a "Vaapad fury" and Yoda would just bounce around and let him tire. Then when he does, use the offensive nature of Ataru to unleash onslaught of saber attacks that Mace could not defend against for very long.

And again, if Mace did start to tire and brought this to a force battle (which he wouldn't cause even he would know he'd get owned) then Yoda also wins. After all, he said himself that Kar Vastor was beyond him, on a level of power near or equal to Yoda and 'Young Anakin Skywalker'. So Mace himself admits that he is not in Yoda league in terms of force ability. And although he would do very well in a saber duel (Mace is a badass saberist to say the least) Yoda could just not fully engage Mace until he knew he would win. Either way, Yoda wins.

No where did I presume that Yoda was a "saber god" but he is the best in the PT era.

I have to agree with that. Yoda will more likely win then lose from Mace.

Mace vs. Yoda=Yoda
GG vs. Luke=Luke
Yoda vs. Luke=Which Yoda?

GG vs Luke is Luke?

The same GG who pwned Jedi Masters with years of training... Against Luke who could barely deal with one lightsaber? Luke is dead as hell... Very dead... Yoda would destroy GG with a single force push, just like he would take out Luke...

Yeeaaa...ROTJ Luke would get WTFpwned by GG.

Luke isn't even really worth even being included in this fight. Really GG isn't either, but at least he has saber skill...

But this might as well be a "Yoda vs. Mace" thread because it will boil down to them anyways.

And Yoda will win.

So this should really just be a "Yoda wins thread" lol

Luke doesn't suck. Luke would beat Grievous.

he was able to take out vader. but vader was old and mostly machine so...

Luke defeat Grievous? wow....

Vader was kickass. He wasn't horrible as the people here make him out to be. Vader tooled a Jedi Master in like 7 seconds right after he got the suit.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Vader was kickass. He wasn't horrible as the people here make him out to be. Vader tooled a Jedi Master in like 7 seconds right after he got the suit.
Bol Chatak was the first Jedi he fought after getting his suit. And it was not a 7 second battle. Bol Chatak was fighting as if her lightsaber were an extension of her arm where Vader had to style and was swinging mostly up and down and side-to-side. She hit his arm with her saber but it didn't go through and then Vader killed her, likely because she didn't realise hitting his arm would do next to nothing and after she hit it she probably got overconfident. Either way the fight was actually very even.


ROTS Luke vs. Grievous? Luke beat Vader, who has increased greatly in power since his close encounter with Jedi Master Bol Chatak so I'd say Luke stands a fair chance, although I'm not certain he could defeat the General due to his four arms.

Vader could have and should have WTFpwned Luke in ROTJ. He was not giving it his all because there was conflict in him, he didn't want to kill his son is all.

Luke in ROTJ was prolly as strong as a 13 year old padawan in the PT time, and prolly less skilled then that with a saber. He had basically no training at all. All Luke had going for him was raw force power that he didn't really know how to use. I mean the extent of Luke's force skill was doing a back flip onto a walkway while fighting Vader and force choking 2 giant pig men...lol

Other then that he sucked....until the NJO years...lol

I completely agree with that. Vader just let his son chopped off his arm.

Yeah, cause a 13-year-old Padawan could beat Boba fett whiule fighting off Jabba's thugs. Could infiltrate Xixor's palace (which Luke did between ESB and ROTJ), defeat Guri and destroy the whole building. Like a 13-year old Jedi could even stand a chance against Jabba's guards. Yeah right.

So he held the blade funny. So what? he still beat the crap out of alot of dudes.

So what? He's the strongest Jedi ever. That's why he got so strong with only 4 yrs. of training.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Vader could have and should have WTFpwned Luke in ROTJ. He was not giving it his all because there was conflict in him, he didn't want to kill his son is all.

I hate to be the one to point this out here, but you were a huge supporter of Anakin beating Dooku fair and square because GL said so right? Well, I'm pretty sure GL also said that Luke beat Vader fair and square in the ROTJ commentary (something I never quite believed), so what do you think?

Originally posted by darthsith19
I completely agree with that. Vader just let his son chopped off his arm.

Have you seen ESB? Vader and Luke fight equally then Luke hits Vader, two seconds later his hand is off. Was there any real improvement in his skills between then and ROTJ? He sure as hell didn't train under Yoda or Obi Wan during that time, as he only returned to Yoda after having saved Han.

Vader was holding back in ESB and he was holding back in ROTJ, we never once in ROTJ see him do what he does in ESB. Instead we see a man physically strong enough to pick up an adult male and choke him being hit down by the constant attacks from Luke his weightless lightsaber which just swings from left to right.

This is the same guy that managed to duel with Obi Wan for god knows how long and managed to outmaneuver Dooku, okay Dooku wasn't trying but he still didn't expect that to happen. So do you honestly believe that Vader could not have just put his Sabre forward waiting for Luke to walk in? And do you honestly believe that Luke had the physical power to knock Vader down?

Also Vader stayed down until Luke threw away his lightsaber he stood up right after that.. Doesn't the fight between Vader and Luke resemble the fight between Dooku and Anakin? Both weren't trying their best to convert the younger Sith to the Dark Side.



A young ling from the Jedi temple managed to ambush and kill a bunch of clone troopers with relative ease until he got shot from a lot of sides like many adult Jedi in that time. Those clone troopers are heavily superior to stormtroopers, even the two stormtroopers Luke refused to take out on Endor. When he let Han and Chewie go. He obviously felt he wasn't the right guy for the job so he let two others go...

Would any self respecting Jedi have done the same? No they would have jumped down lightsaber activated cut down both troopers and would have moved on. Luke also didn't manage to deflect the attacks of a few troops on Jabba's sailboat thingie, and got shot in his hand. The little kid however managed to deflect blaster bolts when a lot more people were shooting at him and the people had superior training and weapons.



He used his lightsaber like it was a baseball bat, he would get creamed by anybody that would know how to move the thing, one quick slash and Luke would be dead.



Fanboy BS.

Originally posted by Fishy
Have you seen ESB? Vader and Luke fight equally then Luke hits Vader, two seconds later his hand is off. Was there any real improvement in his skills between then and ROTJ? He sure as hell didn't train under Yoda or Obi Wan during that time, as he only returned to Yoda after having saved Han.

Vader was holding back in ESB and he was holding back in ROTJ, we never once in ROTJ see him do what he does in ESB. Instead we see a man physically strong enough to pick up an adult male and choke him being hit down by the constant attacks from Luke his weightless lightsaber which just swings from left to right.

This is the same guy that managed to duel with Obi Wan for god knows how long and managed to outmaneuver Dooku, okay Dooku wasn't trying but he still didn't expect that to happen. So do you honestly believe that Vader could not have just put his Sabre forward waiting for Luke to walk in? And do you honestly believe that Luke had the physical power to knock Vader down?

Also Vader stayed down until Luke threw away his lightsaber he stood up right after that.. Doesn't the fight between Vader and Luke resemble the fight between Dooku and Anakin? Both weren't trying their best to convert the younger Sith to the Dark Side.



A young ling from the Jedi temple managed to ambush and kill a bunch of clone troopers with relative ease until he got shot from a lot of sides like many adult Jedi in that time. Those clone troopers are heavily superior to stormtroopers, even the two stormtroopers Luke refused to take out on Endor. When he let Han and Chewie go. He obviously felt he wasn't the right guy for the job so he let two others go...

Would any self respecting Jedi have done the same? No they would have jumped down lightsaber activated cut down both troopers and would have moved on. Luke also didn't manage to deflect the attacks of a few troops on Jabba's sailboat thingie, and got shot in his hand. The little kid however managed to deflect blaster bolts when a lot more people were shooting at him and the people had superior training and weapons.



He used his lightsaber like it was a baseball bat, he would get creamed by anybody that would know how to move the thing, one quick slash and Luke would be dead.



Fanboy BS.

Of course there was an improvement. You can't not know the way of the Jedi and not train. Luke is not an idiot.

Did it not occur that Luke was holding back too? He didn't want to kill Vader, he wanted to confront him.

If you take a full kick to the chest down a flight of stairs, of course you'll fall over.

If you are saying Vader wasn't giving it his all because there was conflict in him, why are you saying he was trying to convert Luke to the Darkside.

You CANNOT compare a padawan vs. a few clones and a jedi vs. so many more of Jabba's thugs.

Yeah, but Zett died and Luke didn't so, it is not the same thing.

So what if he holds his lightsaber differently, Mace is wierd to then because Dooku holds his to his side while Mace puts his over his head. Not every Jedi holds their lightsabers the same.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Of course there was an improvement. You can't not know the way of the Jedi and not train. Luke is not an idiot.

Did it not occur that Luke was holding back too? He didn't want to kill Vader, he wanted to confront him.

If you take a full kick to the chest down a flight of stairs, of course you'll fall over.

If you are saying Vader wasn't giving it his all because there was conflict in him, why are you saying he was trying to convert Luke to the Darkside.

You CANNOT compare a padawan vs. a few clones and a jedi vs. so many more of Jabba's thugs.

Yeah, but Zett died and Luke didn't so, it is not the same thing.

So what if he holds his lightsaber differently, Mace is wierd to then because Dooku holds his to his side while Mace puts his over his head. Not every Jedi holds their lightsabers the same.

Yes I agree, there was an improvment, but was it such a big improvment? I would say it was big for the little time he practised, but it barley makes any skills comparable to a "real" jedi. Even if Luke practised often he could not have gained more experience and traning in the force and in lightsaber as a normal jedi did. They trained every day, Luke spended much of his time flying his X-Wing and other stuff. It actually says in the novels that he practised 8 months.
Vader is better than AOTC Anakin, this is certain. Anakin practised almost every day in 10 years plus he had a higher midichlorian count than Luke. (So his power would most likley grow faster than Luke's). So how would Luke in 8 months surpass even AOTC Anakin who had practised 10 years when he actually had less time and no living teacher to be taught by.



Luke fought Vader, then kicked him down the stairs. The Emperor talks to him and Luke realises that Vader is his father and he won't fight him. Here is where he says he won't fight him. Just recently he had let his emotions control him.
Then he hides, Vader reads his mind and talks about Leia. Luke goes berserk and attacks Vader with no intentions to spare his life. Vader was not aiming to kill Luke though, for several reasons.

The Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice, Vader had orders that he had to obey.

Vader had feelings for Luke.

He needed help to overthrow the Emperor.

When Vader finally had gotten Luke to use his hate and anger and gotten him to slip a little to the dark side, why kill him.

There is also a big difference between Jabbas guards and clone troopers. Clone troopers have dangerous weapons and are trained for combat against almost any foe. They are expert marksmen, the best soldiers in the galaxy.
Jabbas guards mostly had melee weapons. Seriousley, anyone with a lightsaber could kill a guy with a bat. There where almost no one with a blaster on that place, and when one came Luke got shot on the hand. If he didn't have a mechanical hand it would be "game over" Luke.

It's not that Luke held his lightsaber differently, it's how he used it. He swung it like a bat, back and forth all the time. He was trying more to knock Vaders guard away with raw power then actually overcome his defence in technique (which kinda proves he hasen't been taught any special saber combat).

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes I agree, there was an improvment, but was it such a big improvment? I would say it was big for the little time he practised, but it barley makes any skills comparable to a "real" jedi. Even if Luke practised often he could not have gained more experience and traning in the force and in lightsaber as a normal jedi did. They trained every day, Luke spended much of his time flying his X-Wing and other stuff. It actually says in the novels that he practised 8 months. Vader is better than AOTC Anakin, this is certain. Anakin practised almost every day in 10 years plus he had a higher midichlorian count than Luke. (So his power would most likley grow faster than Luke's). So how would Luke in 8 months surpass even AOTC Anakin who had practised 10 years when he actually had less time and no living teacher to be taught by.

Luke fought Vader, then kicked him down the stairs. The Emperor talks to him and Luke realises that Vader is his father and he won't fight him. Here is where he says he won't fight him. Just recently he had let his emotions control him.
Then he hides, Vader reads his mind and talks about Leia. Luke goes berserk and attacks Vader with no intentions to spare his life. Vader was not aiming to kill Luke though, for several reasons.

The Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice, Vader had orders that he had to obey.

Vader had feelings for Luke.

He needed help to overthrow the Emperor.

When Vader finally had gotten Luke to use his hate and anger and gotten him to slip a little to the dark side, why kill him.

There is also a big difference between Jabbas guards and clone troopers. Clone troopers have dangerous weapons and are trained for combat against almost any foe. They are expert marksmen, the best soldiers in the galaxy.
Jabbas guards mostly had melee weapons. Seriousley, anyone with a lightsaber could kill a guy with a bat. There where almost no one with a blaster on that place, and when one came Luke got shot on the hand. If he didn't have a mechanical hand it would be "game over" Luke.

It's not that Luke held his lightsaber differently, it's how he used it. He swung it like a bat, back and forth all the time. He was trying more to knock Vaders guard away with raw power then actually overcome his defence in technique (which kinda proves he hasen't been taught any special saber combat).



Well, according to people here "Anakin lost midichlorian count which made him less powerful." (I disagree that he got less powerful, I'm just using that logic.)

Luke knew before that that Vader was his father.

He had to obey, yes..

Luke had feelings for Vader.

Luke or Vader?

Because he couldn't.

10-15 clones or a Palace worth of guards? Everyone you see has a blaster besides the Weequay that pushes Luke. Luke did have a mechanical hand, so what does that have to do with anything?

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Actually he lost potential and his ability to move, for a large part. He did not necessarily become weaker, and definitly not weaker then AOTC Anakin... Which is the name named in the post.



Thats not the point Kamikz is making what he's saying is that Luke didn't want to kill Vader before, but when he heard Vader his threats about Leia he lost all those feelings and just attacked like a mindless moron.



Nice that you agree..



Yes he did, but unlike Vader who loved Luke the entire fight, Luke suddenly lost all love and hope for Vader when he heard about Leia... Which is just seconds before he hits Vader down. Until right after he cuts of Vader his hand.



Vader, he says it in ESB he wants Luke to join him. Together they will be unstoppable or so he says. He just needed somebody else to kill Palps or help him kill Palps.



He had Luke where he wanted him, killing him would be stupid... It was exactly what he was hoping for. Vader could have sliced him down, have you seen him fight at the end of ESB, when he cut of Luke his hand, his lightsaber moves quite fast. He could have easily stopped Luke, just watch the scene he had the time and the oppertunity yet he never took it.



Then why didn't they just all fire at him, he reflects a few blaster shots at most and cuts down a few people with axes then when his hand is in the air he gets shot in the hand. His hand was above his head, that shows how stupid he was. That shows far less skill then a little kid killing half a dozen clone troopers who are heavily armed and all aiming at him. Unlike a few guards who also had half a dozen targets. Also Leia managed to kill their boss then run to the top of the boat shoot with the biggest gun and jump away with Luke... Shows the skill of those guards....



Yes, but from watching ESB we know Vader had the speed and the skill to take him out...

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually he lost potential and his ability to move, for a large part. He did not necessarily become weaker, and definitly not weaker then AOTC Anakin... Which is the name named in the post.



Thats not the point Kamikz is making what he's saying is that Luke didn't want to kill Vader before, but when he heard Vader his threats about Leia he lost all those feelings and just attacked like a mindless moron.



Nice that you agree..



Yes he did, but unlike Vader who loved Luke the entire fight, Luke suddenly lost all love and hope for Vader when he heard about Leia... Which is just seconds before he hits Vader down. Until right after he cuts of Vader his hand.



Vader, he says it in ESB he wants Luke to join him. Together they will be unstoppable or so he says. He just needed somebody else to kill Palps or help him kill Palps.



He had Luke where he wanted him, killing him would be stupid... It was exactly what he was hoping for. Vader could have sliced him down, have you seen him fight at the end of ESB, when he cut of Luke his hand, his lightsaber moves quite fast. He could have easily stopped Luke, just watch the scene he had the time and the oppertunity yet he never took it.



Then why didn't they just all fire at him, he reflects a few blaster shots at most and cuts down a few people with axes then when his hand is in the air he gets shot in the hand. His hand was above his head, that shows how stupid he was. That shows far less skill then a little kid killing half a dozen clone troopers who are heavily armed and all aiming at him. Unlike a few guards who also had half a dozen targets. Also Leia managed to kill their boss then run to the top of the boat shoot with the biggest gun and jump away with Luke... Shows the skill of those guards....



Yes, but from watching ESB we know Vader had the speed and the skill to take him out...

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Why are we even talking about AotC Anakin?

Well he had been taken over by the Darkside, that's what happens when you get taken over by it.

Yup..........

Luke loved Vader for all but 10 seconds.

If he was obeying the Emperor as Kamikz said, why would he try to overthrow him? Especially if he knew the Empire would crumble under his rule.

There are only two Sith, with Vader down and Luke consumed by the Darkside, the Emperor would tell Luke to kill Vader. Do you really think Vader would put himself in a position like that? Especially after seeing what happened to Dooku.

Yeah Luke is so stupid........ being able to rescue Han and sabotage the palace cruiser(whatever the hell it was).

According to everyone here Vader is slow to deflect or dodge anything(which I disagree with).

That's what I said.

AOTC Anakin doesn't even matter read the rest of the point made two posts or so ago, it deals with the matter perfectly.



Exactly so your argument Luke was holding back at that time is moot. Thanks for admitting to that.



Change love to had feelings for, cared about.. And Luke isn't important here, Vader is... Who cared about Luke the entire time. Ergo our reasoning that he wasn't trying his very best.

Luke on the other hand like you yourself said had no such restrictions.



He's a Sith, Sith try to take over from their master, its their goal... Its what they want to do. Also how would the Empire crumble under Vader his rule, as Emperor he would still be unchallanged he would still have the loyalty of the troops and no commander would move against him, so I fail to see the problem.



There could be a lot of reasons three most likely reasons.

1.) He believed that Luke would join him if he became Dark and help him against Palpatine so that they could rule together like he propossed in ESB.

2.) He believed Palpatine was willing to break the rule of two, afterall the rule was established to make sure the Sith could rule,the Sith were rulling why stick to it?

3.) He was an idiot.

You pick 1 and 2 are most likely, and very likely true.



He had his hand up in the air and got shot in the hand, why would anybody shoot in the air unless his hand was there? Meaning he moved his hand in the air some guard with a gun (of which there were few) saw it and shot and Luke got hit, doesn't speak to well for him.

Also to quote myself.

Adress the rest of the pots please.



Show me one place where that is said, and its contradicted by the movie which shows Vader being able to move faster then Luke so it doesn't matter.



Oops, for some reason it didn't post a part of my post... Well what I was trying to say in ESB we see that Vader has the speed with a lightsaber to move it between these huge ass strikes of Luke, he could have taken Luke out. The evidence is right there just watch ESB, he didn't want to kill Luke. He more then had the speed the power and the oppertunity to do so, something was holding him back.

Originally posted by Fishy
AOTC Anakin doesn't even matter read the rest of the point made two posts or so ago, it deals with the matter perfectly.



Exactly so your argument Luke was holding back at that time is moot. Thanks for admitting to that.



Change love to had feelings for, cared about.. And Luke isn't important here, Vader is... Who cared about Luke the entire time. Ergo our reasoning that he wasn't trying his very best.

Luke on the other hand like you yourself said had no such restrictions.



He's a Sith, Sith try to take over from their master, its their goal... Its what they want to do. Also how would the Empire crumble under Vader his rule, as Emperor he would still be unchallanged he would still have the loyalty of the troops and no commander would move against him, so I fail to see the problem.



There could be a lot of reasons three most likely reasons.

1.) He believed that Luke would join him if he became Dark and help him against Palpatine so that they could rule together like he propossed in ESB.

2.) He believed Palpatine was willing to break the rule of two, afterall the rule was established to make sure the Sith could rule,the Sith were rulling why stick to it?

3.) He was an idiot.

You pick 1 and 2 are most likely, and very likely true.



He had his hand up in the air and got shot in the hand, why would anybody shoot in the air unless his hand was there? Meaning he moved his hand in the air some guard with a gun (of which there were few) saw it and shot and Luke got hit, doesn't speak to well for him.

Also to quote myself.

Adress the rest of the pots please.



Show me one place where that is said, and its contradicted by the movie which shows Vader being able to move faster then Luke so it doesn't matter.



Oops, for some reason it didn't post a part of my post... Well what I was trying to say in ESB we see that Vader has the speed with a lightsaber to move it between these huge ass strikes of Luke, he could have taken Luke out. The evidence is right there just watch ESB, he didn't want to kill Luke. He more then had the speed the power and the oppertunity to do so, something was holding him back. \

Okay....

I said Luke wasn't holding back when he was using the darkside. If he wasn't holding back when he kicked Vader down he would have jumped down and stabbed him as easily as you say Vader could stab Luke as he is getting viciously attacked.

Of course Luke is important, he wasn't giving it his best, using his full potential.

He was restricted to killing him for all but 10 seconds.

Vader isn't as politically informed as the Emperor is.

Luke was fighting against the Darkside, why would he join?

Why would Palpatine be willing to break that rule? He killed Dooku for Vader, I doubt he would break the rule. It was Dooku who wanted to break the rule.

Vader was not stupid.

Unless someone completely wiffed his hand......... that was stupid....... but everyone makes mistakes.

I don't feel like searching, but I have seen it many times before, ask some people and they will tell you.

So..... what's your point we are talking about RotJ...

Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Originally posted by mace=badass
\

Okay....

I said Luke wasn't holding back when he was using the darkside. If he wasn't holding back when he kicked Vader down he would have jumped down and stabbed him as easily as you say Vader could stab Luke as he is getting viciously attacked.

Of course Luke is important, he wasn't giving it his best, using his full potential.

He was restricted to killing him for all but 10 seconds.

Vader isn't as politically informed as the Emperor is.

Luke was fighting against the Darkside, why would he join?

Why would Palpatine be willing to break that rule? He killed Dooku for Vader, I doubt he would break the rule. It was Dooku who wanted to break the rule.

Vader was not stupid.

Unless someone completely wiffed his hand......... that was stupid....... but everyone makes mistakes.

I don't feel like searching, but I have seen it many times before, ask some people and they will tell you.

So..... what's your point we are talking about RotJ...

Apparently Luke was the one attacking, Vader was the one defending. Luke had just recently made the decition to strike at Palpatine, thus giving in to his hate. Then Vader parrys the strike, Luke fights him and kicks him down the stairs. Not much holding back here. And Vader's style is an agressive style, still he is only defending in this fight.

Yes he was, Vader wasen't though.

^

Anakin was also fighting against the dark side, so was every jedi in Star Wars, but they still fall when they can't control their emotions.

Because when Dooku and Sidious were Sith they didn't rule the Galaxy. As Fishy said, they were ment to be 2 when they were not controlling the Galaxy, but at this time Sidious did.

Ok so it must be one of the other two then.

Not such a dumb mistake. An experienced warrior or a good jedi would not do that in a battle.

And to your earlier post, quote:
Why are we even talking about AotC Anakin?

I brought him up to show that it is completly illogical that ROTJ Luke could defeat Vader. Here.

Darth Vader was better than AOTC Anakin. He had much, much more experience, were calmer, more force techniques, had grown in potential, had mastered his swordstyle.

AOTC Anakin had been a jedi for 10 years. In those 10 years he studied each and every day, getting experience from missions with Obi-Wan and professional sword and force traning. Anakin also had a higher midichlorian count than Luke (thus he would grow more powerful than Luke, and his power would grow faster too).

And now we have ROTJ Luke. He has practised as a jedi for 8 months. He has no teachers, no sparring partners, a much worse traning time so to say. Now how can Luke, with worse traning, less traning, and being weaker in the force than his father, surpass AOTC Anakin who had trained for about 9 years more, gotten better traning, grown in the force faster and acctually used his lightsaber and force during missions.
Makes no sense at all, and to say that Luke would WTFPWN someone who would Pwn AOTC Anakin makes even less.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Okay, they weren't trying their best. Vader had conflict in him. But Luke did not want to destroy him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Without Luke's feelings about Vader, Vader would have never gotten his feelings about Luke. If Luke never believed he could bring him back, Vader wouldn't want to be redeemed. So Luke's feelings are important.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I never said Vader was trying his best. But Luke was trying his best for that brief amount of time. The 10 seconds at the end. But no the rest of the battle. Luke could have killed Vader at the end but realized what he was doing and stopped.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I'm sure Vader wanted to overthrow Palpatine in ESB but not in RotJ. We aren't discussing ESB we are discussing RotJ, so that does not matter.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

When did I say that? Yeah, Vader wanted to be on the ground with Luke pointing a lightsaber at his face. But you just said there was conflict in him... so why would he want Luke to turn to the Darkside?

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

If that is what he thought Palpatine wanted wouldn't Palpatine have saved Dooku and started a Sith Empire there?

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I doubt any of those reasons because of what I have stated before, like there being conflict in him, and stuff.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

What did you ask me to reply to, I must've not seen that... I do agree that move was stupid though. But like I said before, people make mistakes, like Dooku believing Palpatine about the three of them ruling, and Anakin turning to the darkside.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I do not think Vader is slow, I was just using the logic of some other people on this site.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.



So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.



Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.



Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.



So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.



You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?



Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.



Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.



It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?



Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.



The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

He didn't want to kill his son in ESB because he wanted to rule with him then but not in RotJ because there was conflict in him and he did not wan t to continue with his ways.

Lol... You didn't really understand how it worked did you? Well i'll come back to this later, kinda tired quickly gonna read the other threads and then i'm going to sleep... Don't feel like writing a huge ass reply right now.

Originally posted by kamikz
Makes no sense at all, and to say that Luke would WTFPWN someone who would Pwn AOTC Anakin makes even less.

It also makes no sense that Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

So you can't judge like that.

I have to go now though.

All I know is the novel states that, during their duel, Vader beings to fear that Luke might actually now be stronger than him.

Duh.

Guess what? After ROTJ he didn't train under anybody and became the strongest Jedi ever.

That was no normal Padawan but Zett Jukessa. Anomaly said the avg. Padawan.

What Stormtroopers? The ones by the Speeder bikes? He didn't want them to call in for back-up.

He did block some right before Han "killed" Boba. And some more on the sail barge. He got hit in the hand because he was distracted by Leia. inlove

Well, obviously the baseball stance was an efficient stance and one that Luke used to beat someone that knew how to move the thing cause if it was a bad one why would he have been taught it and Vader beat him.

What is?

So what, he beat them all and pwnd Boba. Wpuld you be hapier if we said Zett's better at deflecting?

So were Anakin's in AOTC right before the Clones arrived.

I see, but my questions was did GL confirm that Luke beat Vader fair and square in the ROTJ DVD commentary, because that was what I heard from rumours.

But enough to do something like that? And the more important question would actually be, has Vader weakened since ESB?



Guess what he had holocrons and time... He also had other people there, he may have been the most powerful Jedi but that doesn't mean he was the most powerful in ROTJ. Anakin who has more potential then that guy didn't manage to grow as powerful as you claim Luke is in such a short time. It took him years to become even close to as powerful as he was when he turned into Lord Vader. Years, Luke with less potential could not achieve that in months, when he also had a lot of other none Jedi things to do.



Even if he was better then the average Padawn of which you have no prove then it still wouldn't matter becuase Luke would have been surpassed by a Padawan... Well not even a Padawan the guy was still in the first stages of his training, he would have been WTFPwned by any Jedi and Sith and definitly by Vader unless you wish to argue that Vader was so weak that he couldn't even beat Zett.

So the point still stands, Luke was inferior to a Padawan.



So he let Han and Chewie go in... Does that sound like something a Jedi with skill would have done? Hell no they would have jumped in the middle of those two troopers and cut them down with one or two stirkes, the troopers wouldn't have had a chance, like Zett did in ROTS... But obviously Luke wasn't skilled enough to do that...



Obi Wan managed to take out a lot of droids when gassed up by deflecting their blaster bolts. Anakin had a million emotions running through his mind and still managed to effectively fight Obi Wan. Obi Wan was fighting the hardest fight in his life and he still won. Luke getting distracted just shows he's not skilled enough.



It takes years to master a lightsaber style, years. Obi Wan had been using Soresu for 13 years and hadn't mastered it until ROTS. Anakin the same and it can be said he didn't master his style yet since it changed a lot. Thats 13 years of constant lightsaber training and 3 years of a war.. And these were Jedi their entire live, they did nothing else but use their lightsabers. Luke trained for a few months, he could not have mastered a lightsaber style no way in hell.



Your statement.



Last time I checked Boba was knocked out by Han not by Luke... Luke didn't pwn anybody. And his skill at deflecting blaster shots means something about how well he can handle his lightsaber. How fast and efficient. It just shows that a Padawan could move his lightsaber faster and better then Luke.



Did Anakin got shot in the hand? No, Point moot.

Actually in LOE Palps tells Dooku not to kill Anakin, okay that was a fight in LOE but the fight never happened, instead Dooku ran towards Coruscant and the fight happened there. Its possible that Palps gave Dooku other instructions but unlikely.

In the original script Dooku says to Palps "You promised me amnesty' or something like that, indicating that Dooku was told to lose. Anakin was also the better choice for the apprentice because he was willing to join the Dark Side, had far more potential and was younger and likely weaker. So Palpatine could form him more.

2. This could very well refer to Palpatine wanting Dooku to die, of course Dooku didn't know that otherwise he would have started fighting Palpatine.

3. Anakin proves that he is able to become Palpatine his apprentice by accepting the Dark Side and killing an unarmed opponent even if it was for the so called greater good.

Originally posted by mace=badass
It also makes no sense that Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

So you can't judge like that.

I have to go now though.

Have you ever thought about that Dooku faked to Anakin, he was told to loose. And has it ever struck you that when they were 2 on 1, Obi-Wan had to go on the offensive to work efficently with Anakin since they attacked. Obi-Wan is trained for defence, he uses a defencive style. Going on the offensive should not be his stronger side. But anyway, Dooku did not aim to kill Anakin.

He should have though.(I think it was a fair duel and he wasn't losing on purpose.) Otherwise Dooku is and idiot. With the rule of two Sith and all.

Originally posted by mace=badass
He should have though.(I think it was a fair duel and he wasn't losing on purpose.) Otherwise Dooku is and idiot. With the rule of two Sith and all.

Dooku could have been told a million things, perhaps just to turn Anakin to the Dark Side but not that Anakin would become a Sith, there were other Dark Jedi around. Perhaps Dooku believed that the time for the rule of two was over seeing as they were in a war against Jedi..

But we know for sure that Dooku didn't try his hardest, he talked to Anakin he didn't use his superior force powers like he did against Obi Wan, he didn't strike when he had the chance and he easily stopped both Anakin and Obi Wan, and then lost from only one of them? Dooku underestimated Anakin and died because of that, he wasn't surpassed by Anakin however.

The Sith and Jedi are always at war... If Dooku thought that was time he was stupid, because if they were going to break the rule of two, they would have done it before, like perhaps the start of the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by mace=badass
The Sith and Jedi are always at war... If Dooku thought that was time he was stupid, because if they were going to break the rule of two, they would have done it before, like perhaps the start of the Clone Wars.

The Sith and the Jedi had been at peace for a thousand years.

At the start of the clone wars there weren't a lot of Jedi ready and willing to convert, and there were Dark Jedi around in those same times that followed Dooku, Anakin could have been one of them. Or perhaps Dooku just believed that he would survive and that he could draw time until he could kill or get Anakin killed at a later time, or perhaps he hoped to kill Palps and become the Sith Lord ruling over Anakin after the clone wars ended.

Whatever the case there could be a million explanations for him not trying to really destroy Anakin.

Right before he was killed, he could have force-pushed Anakin with his little nublet hands.

Thats just unspeculated bs.

Woops meant to put should've.

How the hell would he have done that, he lost his arms something thats for some reason needed when you push people he was in shock and probably in great pain, although the adreline in his body prevents that from showing. He probably couldn't think all to clear and he had a lightsaber on his neck, well two actually...

He couldn't do anything anymore...

Well not necessarily to lose, just not to kill Anakin and try and turn him.

Of course Anakin won from Dooku by suprising Dooku and taking advantage of Dooku his elitist arrogant views... However in a straight up fight Anakin would have died by Dooku his hands, just look at the first part of the fight where Obi Wan is around and then at the fight where Obi Wan is gone, compare the two. Dooku goes from great pwnage to not really that good... And he talks more then he fights, if he tried his very best he would not have done anything like that and Anakin would have been dead.

Besides Sidious would never have risked losing Anakin, he spend 13 years trying to slowly talk in to the boy.

No, Dooku did not throw the fight. Sidious wanted the most powerful apprentice/Sith he could have. He wanted a fight to the death to see who was stronger. Whoever prevailed would be the next Sith. He wouldn't tell Dooku to throw the fight because he thought Dooku was stronger, If Dooku was stronger he wouldn't want Anakin as the apprentice. Sidious always wants the strongest.

Speculation. I didn't see anything to say that Dooku went from "pwnage" to "not that good." What I saw was Anakin and Obi fighting Dooku, Dooku rapes Obi and Anakin gets pissed off and then killes Dooku. It can be taken 2 ways. 1) the way you suggest where Dooku stops trying (which makes no sense) or 2) Dooku doesn't get any worse, Anakin just uses Anger and gets better.

Nor does Dooku "talk more then he fights". He says like 4 lines over like 3 min of fighting.

I agree that Sidious would not have risked loosing Anakin, he ONLY would have told Dooku not to kill him had Anakin not been more powerful and lost the fight. But until then, it doesn't make sense to have a handicapped fight where Dooku isnt giving it his all. Again, Lucas said, the puropse was to see if Anakin was worthy of being Sidious apprentice. The only way to do it is to have a full out one on one.

If Anakin wins then Sidious is happy and tells him to Kill Dooku (which is what he wants)

And if Anakin was not yet strong enough then he simply tells Dooku to stop and give Anakin more time to get stronger and do it again later.

Originally posted by mace=badass
No, Dooku did not throw the fight. Sidious wanted the most powerful apprentice/Sith he could have. He wanted a fight to the death to see who was stronger. Whoever prevailed would be the next Sith. He wouldn't tell Dooku to throw the fight because he thought Dooku was stronger, If Dooku was stronger he wouldn't want Anakin as the apprentice. Sidious always wants the strongest.

Anakin had the potential, Sidious believed Anakin would become more powerful then anybody.. Anakin would have been his most important target for an apprentice, besides Dooku was getting old, older then Sidious he couldn't last forever.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Speculation. I didn't see anything to say that Dooku went from "pwnage" to "not that good." What I saw was Anakin and Obi fighting Dooku, Dooku rapes Obi and Anakin gets pissed off and then killes Dooku. Nor does Dooku "talk more then he fights". He says like 4 lines over like 3 min of fighting.

I agree that Sidious would not have risked loosing Anakin, he ONLY would have told Dooku not to kill him had Anakin not been more powerful and lost the fight. But until then, it dosent make sense to have a handicapped fight where Dooku isnt giving it his all. Again, Lucas said, the puropse was to see if Anakin was worthy of being Sidious apprentice. The only way to do it is to have a full out one on one.

If Anakin wins then Sidious is happy and tells him to Kill Dooku (which is what he wants)

And if Anakin was not yet strong enough then he simply tells Dooku to stop and give Anakin more time to get stronger and do it again later.

And how do you think Palpatine would have told Dooku that? If Anakin was still alive?

And to become worthy of being a Sith had nothing to do with strength it had to do with accepting the Dark Side. Sidious wanted Anakin because of his potential, thats why he had been talking to him for 13 years now... 13 years... The end of the war was upon them, Sidious had to move fast... Besides in the original script Dooku thought Anakin was supposed to capture him and then he would be arrested and released again.

Also in LOE Palps tells Dooku not to hurt Anakin. Not to mention that Makashi excells in 1 on 1 combat. Dooku his style. He pwned Anakin and Obi Wan with the style, when he took out Obi Wan he cassually and easily kicked Anakin back against the wall knocking him out for a few seconds. There is no reason to believe he couldn't have done so in a 1 on 1 situation. If anything the situation would be far more in Dooku his favour.

Originally posted by Fishy
Anakin had the potential, Sidious believed Anakin would become more powerful then anybody.. Anakin would have been his most important target for an apprentice, besides Dooku was getting old, older then Sidious he couldn't last forever.

Sidious knew he would become the most powerful if using the darkside. He knew Anakin would have to tap into his darkside emotions, and use them to defeat Dooku, fair and square.

Well lets just debate this is another thread or drop it, it really doesn't have anything to do with this thread really...

So Yoda wins because he's the most powerful after that Mace, after that GG and after that Luke who dies first cause he's an untrained farmboy.

Again, speculation. Why cant Anakin just have been better? All evidence in the movie (including GL comments) suggest that Anakin was just better. You are favouring Dooku, which is fine, but that doesn't make a lick of difference in face of what the creator of the story says.

Again, What I saw was Dooku doing well, kicking Anakin outta the way, and all that like you said. But then, not only did he hurt Anakins master/ friend, he mocked him. Then Anakin got mad, and kicked Dooku's ass. (Anakin was not made at the start of the fight)

What your seeing is that Dooku got rid of Obi-wan and then stopped trying. Why would he do that? Lucas again clearly states that the purpose of the fight was to see if Anakin was worthy of being Palpatine's apprentice. Palpatine telling Dooku to not try against Anakin doesn't prove anything to Palpatine does it? It makes no sense.

And again, GL not only can override his original script, he can override EU. So LOE really isn't worth anything if it contradicts what Lucas says happens.

AND being a Sith does have to do with accepting the darkside, sure of course. But to Palpatine not only does that matter, he also wants the guy who is gonna be the best suited. how does he do that? He pits his current apprentice against whoever he thinks might be worthy.

The real difference in this fight is that Palpatine already knows that Anakin will be his apprentice (or at least he wants Anakin to be). So this was not a test to see if Dooku was worthy, it was a test to see if Anakin was ready. And again, how does it prove that Anakin was ready if Anakin is fighting a Dooku who isn't trying? It doesn't.

Yeah, okay. 'Untrained farmboy'? RotJ Luke was not an 'untrained farmboy.' If he was an 'untrained farmboy' why would Sidious want him. The fight between Luke and Vader would have been over so fast if he was a, 'untrained farmboy'.

Yes, when using the Dark Side, at least.

I would say he fought better in ESB than he did in ROTJ so he may have gotten weaker but not much.

And he devoted the entire year between ESB and ROTJ to training.

That he was training, yes.

True, but some people improve at a faster rate that others. Luke had terrific mentors and common sense. Anakin was a brat who hardly ever listene to his Master or, indeed, respected him (until after AOTC).

Vader would have pwnd little Zett. Luke is in no way inferior to a Padawan. Look at Whie. He's 13 in ROTS and far above avg. in strength and he only manages to block one of Vader's swings. Luke's far stronger than he is.

If I remember correctly, Yoda, one of the greatest and strongest jedi Masters of all time, stood around and let the Wookiees and Clones go in and take out the droids of Kashyyyk.

And when Luke had those same emotions running through him he beat Vader. And Vader (or Anakin) didn't have Padme run past him in a bikini while he was fighting Obi-Wan and if she did I'll bet that would have distracted both he and Obi-Wan.

Did I ever say Luke mastered anything?

And how long did it take Mace to Master Vaapad?

Boba flies off the sailbarge and lands behind Luke. Sensing him, Luke turns around and chops Boba's gun in 1/2 before Boba can even fire off a shot. Boba then falls onto the floor of the Skiff. Had there not been 50 other goons for Luke to deal with he could have sliced Boba's head off right there. But instead he worries about the five or soo goons in the next skiff shooting at him so he jumps over there to take care of them. Boba got up and shoot at Luke but
missed.

Since when did speed = good with a lightsaber?

Of course he didn't get shot, no kne was shooting at him!

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, when using the Dark Side, at least.


Why would he have gotten weaker? Is it because there was now a Jedi that could possible threathen him and he didn't feel he needed to keep his strength up, is it because of age? Even though he wasn't all that old. Is it because of his injury's? Which didn't weaken him over the past 19 years except for after they first happened, so then why did he weaken? What could possibly have caused him to weaken except for his emotions.



Obviously not, as he had time to find Han think of a plan and do something to safe him.



Your point being? Teachers can learn from there students.



Anakin highly respected Obi Wan, of course he didn't agree with everything his masters said but Luke didn't do what they said either, just watch the end of ESB, he leaves againts Yoda his orders.



In no way inferior, except you already admitted he couldn't block blaster bolts as well as Zett and that he wasn't as fast as Zett... Thats two ways in which he is inferior.



If I remember that was a full scale war, Luke saw two scouts that had to be taken out so that they couldn't alert the rest of the troops. It wasn't a battle it wasn't a war, it was just two scouts that had to be taken care off. And instead of doing it himself (something that a Jedi would excell at) he let others do it. That was foolish. And no other Jedi would have done the same thing. Yoda if anything would have just moved there hand and knocked both of them out.



No evidence for that at all, and we are debating Luke beating Vader. And when he knocked Vader back he had no emotions instaed of hatred...



You or somebody else did.



Till the end of his life it was a new style, he was the best one in it, and there probably wouldn't ever be anybody better (at least not for a very long time) however a style is never finished, Mace could have found new things wrong with it and changed things.



I'll have to rewatched the movie, cause I don't recall it happening like that.



Since Luke his wide attacks had no speed just strength, anybody with speed in his attacks could have taken him out when he was using those wide attacks where his lightsaber went from one side to the other.



So like I said the point of Anakin having his hand above his head is moot, as he wasn't stupid enough to do it and get shot in the hand.

Behold, the might of Luke!

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8779/lukedoublebladed4vt.jpg

HA! HA! Great Pic, Wesker!

Lucas: The Dark Side is more powerful.

You asked my opinion. I suppose the conflict within him weakened him.

A Plan? Yeah, go kick Jabba's ass. Plus he had other brains to help him, Like Leia, Chewie and Lando. Did you even read Shadows of the Emperor? Pretty much all he did was practice.

Yes. But how long was it after ROTJ until he even took on an apprentice?

Anakin in no way respected Obi-Wan. he said things were all his fault, that he wasn't fair, he doesn't listem to him, heck, what does he do to respect him? So Luke left against Yoda's wishes, because he wanted to save his firends. Honestly, Fishy, how many Jedi wouldn't have gone?

Never said those things. Speed doesn't mean alot (look at Mace when he duels).

And there was an entire legion right by.

You do that, I assure you that it did happen.

That proved efficient.

He moced fast enough to block blaster bolts.

So are you going to say Anakin was weak since he put his saber above his head?

Besides what's worse? Getting shot in the mechanical hand because your hand is in the air? Or letting someone chop off your arm?

Just wait a few days or so, i'll have some screens or gifs to prove everything I want.

god damn it why is this thread still alive? It's already decided that Yoda wins and is going on to the finals. Let it go.