Marka Ragnos vs NJO Luke and DN Luke

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w00t2112
Ok, i want to see everyone's opinion on this fight, and it isnt exactly 2 on 1 because its like one on one, but Ragnos has to fight both NJO luke and DN Luke, one after the other

setting: Valley of The Sithlords

Wesker
Hm. One right after the other? He wins.

Fishy
I have no idea Do we have any real prove of Ragnos his power? We know he was more powerful then all Sith of his era including Sadow and Kressh but how much? I have my doubts on the winner here, simply because I can not even begin to guess how powerful Ragnos trully was.

tdtd
Ragnos would be equal to NJO luke in power, add DN luke and it's bye bye fat man

Numan
Originally posted by Fishy
I have no idea Do we have any real prove of Ragnos his power? We know he was more powerful then all Sith of his era including Sadow and Kressh but how much? I have my doubts on the winner here, simply because I can not even begin to guess how powerful Ragnos trully was.

That may not be 100% true. He may have been a really good leader. Or they could have just really respected him but there is not enough evidence to say that he is the greatest force user alive.

Numan
Originally posted by Fishy
I have no idea Do we have any real prove of Ragnos his power? We know he was more powerful then all Sith of his era including Sadow and Kressh but how much? I have my doubts on the winner here, simply because I can not even begin to guess how powerful Ragnos trully was.

tdtd
But it is logical to say that the Ancient Sith had no equals after them, and those same ancient Sith feared and respected Ragnos, and never dared to challenged him even on his death bed, so it's safe to say Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful which would make him the most powerful force user to have existed..

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
That may not be 100% true. He may have been a really good leader. Or they could have just really respected him but there is not enough evidence to say that he is the greatest force user alive.

Are you forgetting who he ruled?

He ruled a Race of Sith that wanted power above all else, he was hated because he was a half blood... If he was weak he would have been dead, the Sith might respect their leaders but they respect their ideals more and they would have killed Ragnos would they have had the chance.

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
That may not be 100% true. He may have been a really good leader. Or they could have just really respected him but there is not enough evidence to say that he is the greatest force user alive.

In Sith society, the strongest ruled, period. He was never defeated, even on his deathbed. He is noted for being so strong that when he passed, jedi masters felt the tremor in the force across the length of the galaxy.

He IS that strong.

tdtd
Damn that's powerful

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
In Sith society, the strongest ruled, period. He IS that strong.

There is actually no evidence that the sith as a species were like that. Ludo Kressh and many other sith lords on the council did not seem like the power hungry sith (not the specie but the dark jedi) that we come across (like Sidious and Malak etc.). In fact they seemed like they cared more about the sith empire than their own power. Naga Sadow was an exception. Think back to when the exiled jedi first arrived on Korriban. The sith were made slaves and treated the dark jedi like Gods. They seem more like sheep than power hungry tyrants.

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
There is actually no evidence that the sith as a species were like that. Ludo Kressh and many other sith lords on the council did not seem like the power hungry sith (not the specie but the dark jedi) that we come across (like Sidious and Malak etc.). In fact they seemed like they cared more about the sith empire than their own power. Naga Sadow was an exception. Think back to when the exiled jedi first arrived on Korriban. The sith were made slaves and treated the dark jedi like Gods. They seem more like sheep than power hungry tyrants.

...

No, you're wrong. They were all selfish and backstabbing and vying for power. Ludo simply didn't want to try and conquer the Republic as Sadow did. The Sith believed that the strongest should rule. This is the case throughout the entire series.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
There is actually no evidence that the sith as a species were like that. Ludo Kressh and many other sith lords on the council did not seem like the power hungry sith (not the specie but the dark jedi) that we come across (like Sidious and Malak etc.). In fact they seemed like they cared more about the sith empire than their own power. Naga Sadow was an exception. Think back to when the exiled jedi first arrived on Korriban. The sith were made slaves and treated the dark jedi like Gods. They seem more like sheep than power hungry tyrants.

and why did they do that? Because they couldn't stand up against those guys.

Sadow and Kressh still fought for control, Ragnos took over from Simus, cut of the guy his head and then ruled over the Sith.

Ajunta Pall describes his time as a Sith as a time of fighting and backstabbing just trying to get each others secrets and taking control. Ajunta Pall was the first Dark Lord, there is no reason to assume that things would have changed in the time between Ragnos and Ajunta Pall twice. No reason to assume that they would have gone peaceful and then back to backstabbing ass hole's, especially as the entire sith ideology is based on the ideology of the race. Thats why they name themselves the same. The Sith want the most powerful to rule thats the idea behind the Sith, and that has never changed. Not once. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't.

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
...

The Sith believed that the strongest should rule. This is the case throughout the entire series.

This was only clearly shown through the sith ways and sith philosophy of the dark jedi that took on the title of sith.

Fishy
And stole their ideology, also Pall the first Sith Lord did the exact same thing... Now stop arguing bullshit. Sith want control, Ragnos would have been killed if somebody else could have taken control.

Numan
Pall was not a true sith. And you are the one arguing bs. The fact is that there is hardly any evidence suggesting Ragnos was as powerful as you make him out to be. I am simply arguing that the sith were not too afraid to overthrow him and am trying to give other reasons that suggest they would not challenge him. I am not saying he wasn't powerful because he was extremely powerful (simply because he was able to defeat Simus, someone who was strong enough in the force to stay alive as only a head without many vital organs). I am simply stating that there is no evidence that he was more powerful than Sadow or Kressh etc.

tdtd
Fishy is right, nobody was powerful enough to take on Ragnos, he was feared all throughout the Sith Empire.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
Pall was not a true sith. And you are the one arguing bs. The fact is that there is hardly any evidence suggesting Ragnos was as powerful as you make him out to be. I am simply arguing that the sith were not too afraid to overthrow him and am trying to give other reasons that suggest they would not challenge him. I am not saying he wasn't powerful because he was extremely powerful (simply because he was able to defeat Simus, someone who was strong enough in the force to stay alive as only a head without many vital organs). I am simply stating that there is no evidence that he was more powerful than Sadow or Kressh etc.

Yes there is, he ruled over them...

In a Sith society the strongest rule, this has been done since the start until the very end of the Sith with Anakin throwing Palps into his death...

Now please show evidence for your assumption or drop it.

Numan
There is no evidence that he was feared so your point is moot. There are plenty of reasons why he was never challenged. He might have had a lot of influence with many sith lords so killing him would have been suicide. He might have been the best leader out of all of the lords and so people did not want to get rid of him. The might have respected him so much that they did not wish to get rid of him. There is also no evidence that these original sith lords followed the philosophy that people in the the Star Wars galaxy associated with the sith.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
There is no evidence that he was feared so your point is moot. There are plenty of reasons why he was never challenged. He might have had a lot of influence with many sith lords so killing him would have been suicide. He might have been the best leader out of all of the lords and so people did not want to get rid of him. The might have respected him so much that they did not wish to get rid of him. There is also no evidence that these original sith lords followed the philosophy that people in the the Star Wars galaxy associated with the sith.

Except for everything anybody says about them....

Its constantly said. Ragnos was so powerful that none dared to move on him he was a half blood he was hated. He didn't have the support of many Sith Lords otherwise Sadow wouldn't have been able to even start a war against the republic. You are arguing against what is a stated fact, now unless you have some evidence that overrides that, you are wrong.

tdtd
Is that why Sadow and Kressh started to gain testicular fortitude after Ragnos had died? They kept their mouths shut during his reign, and they feared and respected him. All of this simply states that Ragnos was more powerful than them. The most powerful of the most powerful with a "frightening grasp of the dark side". His death was sensed by Odan Urr in his sleep on the other side of the galaxy, that's how powerful he was. Read the comics please. Fishy is 100% right, even with ambiguous text it shows that Ragnos was the greatest of the greatest.

Numan
In Kotor, it is revealed that Duron Quel Droma's death in Korriban was sensed by his master on the other side of the galaxy as well. Most of what you have said have been assumptions.

Fishy
Oh yeah is that revealed? How and when?

and do you know the difference between a Master and a Dark Lord you don't even know?

The Master always forms a bond with the apprentice, they have a special connection to each other, there is no such thing between a Dark Lord of the Sith and a Jedi.

Numan
You're telling me this because...

Numan
It is revealed under the info on the Quel Droma robes.

tdtd
lol. I don't know what to say to that. Ragnos' power is pretty much confirmed so there isn't anything to argue against.

Numan
How is it confirmed?

tdtd
Have you read the comics? Lets start with that

Numan
The only things in the comics that gave us a clue that Ragnos was powerful were the fact that he killed Simus and the fact that he was able to come back from the dead as a spirit.

tdtd
And the fact that Sadow and Kressh showed fear from his spirit, stopped what they were doing, and bowed down.. That's a sign of respect and fear.

IKC
Numan, gameplay is not canon. Items are not canon.

The only thing that's canon from the video games is the storyline, i.e. major plot points like "Katarn killed Jerec" or "Revan killed Malak."

tdtd
True

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
In Kotor, it is revealed that Duron Quel Droma's death in Korriban was sensed by his master on the other side of the galaxy as well. Most of what you have said have been assumptions.

First, Master-apprentice bonds are VERY strong. However, sensing the death of a sith lord across the entire galaxy (When the jedi did not even know of the sith) is really saying something. Let's put it to you this way- when Malak, Freedan Nadd, Sadow, Exar Kun or anyone else died, no one across the galaxy felt it in the force.

Second, you're the one here assuming that Ragnos was some bureaucrat in a clearly rule-of-the-strongest society. You're using the description from an ITEM in KotOR to defend your side, and yet you deliberately ignore the dozens of load screens and talks of the "strongest rule in the Sith empire" in the very game!

IKC
It's hard to lump him in with the others, considering practically all other Force sensitives were above his moon when he unleashed his spirit, concentrating on imprisoning him in a wall of light.

tdtd
Ahhh that is also true..

Wesker
And he really didn't die either. But the point remains about Ragnos.

IKC
Originally posted by Wesker
And he really didn't die either. But the point remains about Ragnos.

Indeed it does. Bravo.

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
First, Master-apprentice bonds are VERY strong. However, sensing the death of a sith lord across the entire galaxy (When the jedi did not even know of the sith) is really saying something. Let's put it to you this way- when Malak, Freedan Nadd, Sadow, Exar Kun or anyone else died, no one across the galaxy felt it in the force.

Second, you're the one here assuming that Ragnos was some bureaucrat in a clearly rule-of-the-strongest society. You're using the description from an ITEM in KotOR to defend your side, and yet you deliberately ignore the dozens of load screens and talks of the "strongest rule in the Sith empire" in the very game!

Odan-Urr actually foresaw from a dream the sith invasion. He did not feel Marka Ragnos' death so stop making things up.

tdtd
Yes he did LOL.. I'm looking at the comic book right now..

Numan
So am I. Stop lying. Firstly he has the vision during Marka Ragnos' funeral so quite a bit after his actual death and secondly he states in the comics just as Jori reveals that the sith empire had her brother and were planning to invade the republic, that it was as he predicted.

tdtd
Yes he has a vision of Marka Ragnos as he fades away for the next millenia. And if you can't understand the reason behind Nagow Sadod and Kressh kneeling before the spirit of Marka Ragnos, then you have problems.

Numan
His vision has nothing to do with how powerful he was and actually has nothing to do with Ragnos. It is all to do with Urr's wisdom and knowledge in the force. And he forsaw in his dream that the sith empire actually existed and that they posed a threat to the Republic. His vision did not occur because of the power of Ragnos.

Faunus
Numan, listen!

Why the hell would Naga Sadow amd Ludo Kressh, the two most powerful beings left in the Sith Empire, bow down to the spirit of Ragnos? Why would they give him berth even when he was on his deathbed? Hm? Because he's just that powerful.

Numan
Originally posted by Faunus
Numan, listen!

Why the hell would Naga Sadow amd Ludo Kressh, the two most powerful beings left in the Sith Empire, bow down to the spirit of Ragnos? Why would they give him berth even when he was on his deathbed? Hm? Because he's just that powerful.

Faunus, listen!

Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh did not show any signs of fear at all. If anything, they were shocked to see him as they were probably not familiar with force ghosts. Read the comics in depth and you will see you are wrong. They are polite out of respect and any signs of fear (more on Ludo's part) were due to the shock of essing Ragnos' spirit.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
Faunus, listen!

Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh did not show any signs of fear at all. If anything, they were shocked to see him as they were probably not familiar with force ghosts. Read the comics in depth and you will see you are wrong. They are polite out of respect and any signs of fear (more on Ludo's part) were due to the shock of essing Ragnos' spirit.

Yet still Sadow disobeyed him.. If he respected Ragnos that much he would not have done so.

So he didn't respect Ragnos, and if he didn't respect Ragnos why would he follow him? Out of fear.

tdtd
Amen

Numan
He didn't follow him and when I was talking about respect, I was more reffering to Ludo. Naga Sadow was more shocked than scared.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
He didn't follow him and when I was talking about respect, I was more reffering to Ludo. Naga Sadow was more shocked than scared.

So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?

Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.

Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.

Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...

So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.

Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?

tdtd
Again fishy is 100% correct. He was described as the most powerful of the most powerful. Physically superior to everybody and anybody, with a terrifying grasp of the dark side. In the case of Sadow, in the absence of respect, there is fear. Kressh feared and respected Ragnos while Sadow feared him and waited til the funeral to strike.

DE Calvin
Originally posted by Fishy
So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?

Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.

Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.

Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...

So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.

Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?
PWNT

Wesker
Indeed. Well said, Fishy.

Numan
Originally posted by Fishy
So Naga Sadow was so shocked that he followed Ragnos for a hundred years?

Why the hell did Naga Sadow follow Ragnos through his life? He obviously didn't respect Ragnos his idea's he didn't agree with them and the first chance he had he went against them. Even though Ragnos told him not too. So what could it have been? The idea of the greater good, well he didn't think Ragnos knew what the greater good was either because he was more then happy to start a war after Ragnos was dead.

Not to start a civil war perhaps? Unfortunally thats exactly what he did after Ragnos died when he tried to attack the republic.

Then perhaps unwilling to lead? Yet still he claimed the throne or tried to at least after Ragnos died...

So why in heavens name would Sadow have followed Ragnos if not because of fear, like stated.

Also Ragnos was described by many people as the most powerful of the most powerful a god amongst gods. Do you which to argue those statements, without evidence?

I thought you meant Naga Sadow followed him when he came back as a spirit. I missed your point. However he only started the civil war with Ludo Kressh when he had most of the sith lords on his side. As I said before, one reason that he didn't strike against Ragnos could have been because of Ragnos' influence with the other sith lords. However when he was able to get the other sith lords on his side, and was selected as the new dark lord of the sith, he then waged a war against Ludo Kressh.
And in reply to your statement about others stating Ragnos to be the greatest, I just started playing KOTOR again and an hour ago when I found the Star Map for Korriban, Uthar Wynn stated Naga Sadow as the greatest of the sith lords.

Wesker
Uthar Wynn is also a moron. If Sadow was "greater" than Ragnos, and "greater" in this case obviously meant "better at combat", than Sadow would have killed Ragnos years ago, murdered Ludo, and ruled unchallenged. He didn't.

And KOTOR does not overrule TOTJ, especially when Random Ignorant Sith Wannabe Wynn says so. The Mandalorian on Dxun says that Freedan Nadd was "A greater terror" than Revan and Malak. Should I just assume he can pwn anything?

DE Calvin
OR, Sadow was just didn't have balls, as a result of Ragnos' awesome Sith alchemy blink

tdtd
Very true Wesker.. I believe Freedon Nadd might have been more powerful than Revan and Malak though. The way he is described leads me to believe that only the Ancient Sith lords are more powerful than he is.

Numan
The only evidence you are going by is that:
1. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were too scared to overthrow Ragnos. 2. And what others have said about Ragnos.

In reply to #1, Ludo Kressh naturally respected him and looked up to him (he was his apprentice) and as a true sith, was naturally a follower (this nature of the sith as a race is shown by the fact that when the exiled jedi came to Korriban, while outnumbered were able to turn the sith into slaves and the sith treated them as Gods). Naga Sadow was cunning and knew that he had to be careful to obtain his power, and felt that the best time to strike against Ludo kressh was with the sith lords on his side (he inspired these followers by deception and using the Republic as a scapegoat). Any fear that may have been shown because of Ragnos' ghost was likely to be shock at seeing him back from the dead (they were not knowledgeable of force spirits at the time).

In reply to #2, you cannot simply ignore what people have said about Tulak and Revan etc, and say it is just hearsay and than act as if what is said about Ragnos is clear evidence of his power. Uthar Wynn himself said that Naga Sadow was the greatest of the sith lords.

If anything, you could say that the fact that he was able to defeat Simus (who must have been strong in the force as he was able to stay alive as only a head without his body and vital organs - think also of all the midi-chlorians that he must have lost as well) and that he was able to come back from the dead as a spirit untrained are clear examples of his power, but still not enough to show he was more powerful than others such as Sadow etc.

DE Calvin
Originally posted by Numan
The only evidence you are going by is that:
1. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were too scared to overthrow Ragnos. 2. And what others have said about Ragnos.

In reply to #1, Ludo Kressh naturally respected him and looked up to him (he was his apprentice) and as a true sith, was naturally a follower (this nature of the sith as a race is shown by the fact that when the exiled jedi came to Korriban, while outnumbered were able to turn the sith into slaves and the sith treated them as Gods). Naga Sadow was cunning and knew that he had to be careful to obtain his power, and felt that the best time to strike against Ludo kressh was with the sith lords on his side (he inspired these followers by deception and using the Republic as a scapegoat). Any fear that may have been shown because of Ragnos' ghost was likely to be shock at seeing him back from the dead (they were not knowledgeable of force spirits at the time).

In reply to #2, you cannot simply ignore what people have said about Tulak and Revan etc, and say it is just hearsay and than act as if what is said about Ragnos is clear evidence of his power. Uthar Wynn himself said that Naga Sadow was the greatest of the sith lords.

If anything, you could say that the fact that he was able to defeat Simus (who must have been strong in the force as he was able to stay alive as only a head without his body and vital organs - think also of all the midi-chlorians that he must have lost as well) and that he was able to come back from the dead as a spirit untrained are clear examples of his power, but still not enough to show he was more powerful than others such as Sadow etc.
Sadow was anything but Machiavellan

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
I thought you meant Naga Sadow followed him when he came back as a spirit. I missed your point. However he only started the civil war with Ludo Kressh when he had most of the sith lords on his side. As I said before, one reason that he didn't strike against Ragnos could have been because of Ragnos' influence with the other sith lords. However when he was able to get the other sith lords on his side, and was selected as the new dark lord of the sith, he then waged a war against Ludo Kressh.
And in reply to your statement about others stating Ragnos to be the greatest, I just started playing KOTOR again and an hour ago when I found the Star Map for Korriban, Uthar Wynn stated Naga Sadow as the greatest of the sith lords.

And Uthar Wynn a master of the Korriban Accademy but nothing really important could know better then the people that wrote TOTJ, Kreia a sith Lord of incredible power and skill who studied Malachor V for anything between 5 and 8 years?? (thats more then Uthar his time on the Dark Side) and dozens of other people?

Also you have to remember Uthar is a Sith that applaudes combat and the will to fight, Ragnos did not have this. Sadow this, making Sadow greater in his eyes. Greater but not more powerful.

Also Sadow was more then willing to go against what was said by Ragnos even before he had support, he started fighting Kressh. Ragnos broke them up he used a trick and got the support anyhow. Meaning he was willing to go against Ragnos even before he had support of the Sith Lords...And all of those Sith Lords also went against Marka Ragnos, which they wouldn't have done if they respected him as much as you say.

And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this.

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
Uthar Wynn is also a moron. If Sadow was "greater" than Ragnos, and "greater" in this case obviously meant "better at combat", than Sadow would have killed Ragnos years ago, murdered Ludo, and ruled unchallenged. He didn't.

And KOTOR does not overrule TOTJ, especially when Random Ignorant Sith Wannabe Wynn says so. The Mandalorian on Dxun says that Freedan Nadd was "A greater terror" than Revan and Malak. Should I just assume he can pwn anything?

You cannot disregard the opinions of people like these and then use hearsay as evidence that Ragnos was the greatest. I don't think hearsay is a valid argument at all and I was only bringing it up to disprove your point about what people have said about Ragnos to be evidence of his power.

Numan
Still, hearsay is not good enough evidence. She cannot possibly know enough about ragnos and the other ancient sith lords to make an informed decision.

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
You cannot disregard the opinions of people like these and then use hearsay as evidence that Ragnos was the greatest. I don't think hearsay is a valid argument at all and I was only bringing it up to disprove your point about what people have said about Ragnos to be evidence of his power.

I think you're defective or something.

The omniscient narrator proclaims Marka Ragnos as The Dark Lord of Dark Lords of the Sith. The so-called "hearsay" you're accusing us of is from the narrator and, in essence, the creator of Marka Ragnos. You're giving us your opinion and a quote from a KOTOR character who was too stupid to know that his SIC was plotting against him.

Numan
"And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this."

In my opinion it was the nature of the sith to follow a great leader. Naga Sadow was able to manipulate them and Ragnos was long dead so they probably didn't even think for one second that they were basically betraying Ragnos.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
Still, hearsay is not good enough evidence. She cannot possibly know enough about ragnos and the other ancient sith lords to make an informed decision.

2 things

1.) Respond to my post

2.) She could have studied them for 8 years and based on the things she mentions she sure as hell spend a lot of time studying the Ancient Sith Lords, she is far more informed about this matter then Uthar Wynn, and the guy that created Ragnos knows a hell of a lot more then Uther Wynn does.

DE Calvin
The narrartor seemed more Limited 3rd, or 3rd.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
"And if they all didn't go against them because the others didn't then those guys would have been big fat idiots. Because apparantly most of them were more then willing to betray Ragnos, explain this."

In my opinion it was the nature of the sith to follow a great leader. Naga Sadow was able to manipulate them and Ragnos was long dead so they probably didn't even think for one second that they were basically betraying Ragnos.

IMO...

Your oppinion does not hold up against what is said by a lot of other people, in game story tellers and other people who could know. The Sith ideal is to overthrow the one that leads you.

The Sith do not look for a great leader let me try to explain so you will understand.


Marka Ragnos ruled over the Sith for a hundred years
Naga Sadow hated him, he didn't respect him and went against him right after he died.
The other Sith didn't respect him either because they were willing to join Naga Sadow
Some didn't want to join Sadow but not because of respect for Ragnos but because they believed his claims.
If the mayority of the Sith does not respect Ragnos, and does not believe his claims he would not be a good leader. Why not?
Put Julius Caesar in command of a nation now, famed leader great leader he would suck as a leader now because people don't agree with him. Ergo you are only a good leader when people agree with you.
People did not agree with Ragnos, most betrayed him after he died. So he was not a good leader.
If you are not respected and your oppinion isn't trusted, but people still follow you then that means you have something that they do not have.
Seeing as the Sith were more then able to provide for their own food weapons clothes and living quarters and money and ships and troops, there can only be one thing Ragnos had they did not have. An awesome control of the Dark Side, incredible physical strength and they were not a god amongst gods...


Get it now?

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
I think you're defective or something.

The omniscient narrator proclaims Marka Ragnos as The Dark Lord of Dark Lords of the Sith. The so-called "hearsay" you're accusing us of is from the narrator and, in essence, the creator of Marka Ragnos. You're giving us your opinion and a quote from a KOTOR character who was too stupid to know that his SIC was plotting against him.

Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.

Again respond to my posts, so far you have ignored both of them...

Wesker
"I'm going to need some proof?" I thought you said you had the comics right there? Lying, perhaps?

tdtd
Numan, fishy is right. Nobody respected him but they followed him. In the absense of respect there is fear, they followed him because they were afraid of him. Why were they afraid of him? Because he was more powerful than any of them or maybe all of them, otherwise they would have joined forces to take him out.

Numan
Originally posted by Fishy
IMO...

Your oppinion does not hold up against what is said by a lot of other people, in game story tellers and other people who could know. The Sith ideal is to overthrow the one that leads you.

The Sith do not look for a great leader let me try to explain so you will understand.


Marka Ragnos ruled over the Sith for a hundred years
Naga Sadow hated him, he didn't respect him and went against him right after he died.
The other Sith didn't respect him either because they were willing to join Naga Sadow
Some didn't want to join Sadow but not because of respect for Ragnos but because they believed his claims.
If the mayority of the Sith does not respect Ragnos, and does not believe his claims he would not be a good leader. Why not?
Put Julius Caesar in command of a nation now, famed leader great leader he would suck as a leader now because people don't agree with him. Ergo you are only a good leader when people agree with you.
People did not agree with Ragnos, most betrayed him after he died. So he was not a good leader.
If you are not respected and your oppinion isn't trusted, but people still follow you then that means you have something that they do not have.
Seeing as the Sith were more then able to provide for their own food weapons clothes and living quarters and money and ships and troops, there can only be one thing Ragnos had they did not have. An awesome control of the Dark Side, incredible physical strength and they were not a god amongst gods...



Get it now?

1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.
2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.
3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.
4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.
5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.
6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.
7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.
8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.
9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.

Get it now?

tdtd
What does "Ruling with an iron fist" mean to you?

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
"I'm going to need some proof?" I thought you said you had the comics right there? Lying, perhaps?

I downloaded them so they have some stuff missing such as comments from the narrator.

Numan
Originally posted by tdtd
Numan, fishy is right. Nobody respected him but they followed him. In the absense of respect there is fear, they followed him because they were afraid of him. Why were they afraid of him? Because he was more powerful than any of them or maybe all of them, otherwise they would have joined forces to take him out.

You still don't have proof.

Wesker
Yeah, that would explain more than a few gaps in your knowledge, Numan. Arguing from ignorance is a debating sin.

tdtd
lol

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
Yeah, that would explain more than a few gaps in your knowledge, Numan. Arguing from ignorance is a debating sin.

Just like when you said Odan-Urr felt Ragnos' death throught the force. Maybe you should take your own advice geek.

tdtd
Sure thing poindexter.. I want my homework done by 7..

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
Just like when you said Odan-Urr felt Ragnos' death throught the force. Maybe you should take your own advice geek.

So he didn't feel Ragnos' death through the force?

And really... Geek? What are you, 10 years old?

Numan
Look you loser, that's not funny. Get smarter if you want to debate against me and get wittier if you want to make fun of me.

Fishy
We have provided lots of prove Numan, so far you have speculation... In your reply to me, all you give is answers based on speculation..

1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.

Or it shows that he was so damned powerful that nobody dared to move against him for more then a hundred years... When have you ever heard of a leader respected enough to last for a 100 years? Nobody was that popular.

2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.

He started his idea of conquest right after Ragnos died, he claimed the title of Dark Lord right away and wanted to go to war right away... He didn't just learn of an oppurtinity.

3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.

Sadow manipulated them after he was told by Ragnos (who everybody feared) that attacking the republic was foolish. He made them believe the republic was attacking them and instead of listening to Ragnos like Kressh did and they would have done if they respected him as much as you claim they followed Sadow to war.

4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.

Except for the fact thats exactly what everybody says about them and that time.

5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.

Do so anyways, you clearly aren't able to answer it.

6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.

and what would those accomplishments be? A leader that today would destroy 6 million jews to get jobs that would invade all of Europe to get more lands for its people would not be considered good, 60 years ago a big part of a country and many people from other country's considered just that good. Again if a leader is not respected then he can do whatever he wants but it will not be seen as good.

7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.

No you haven't... almost everybody went against what he said, thats treason... Especially if they respect and love him as much as you claim.

8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.

Unsupported logical fallacy going against what is said by numerous sources and the people who invented him. Do you have any prove?

9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.

Terrible reasoning? Its exactly the reason everybody with cannon authority has given us.

Now you start proving Ragnos was respected amongst his followers, you prove that the Sith didn't follow their own ideal of the strongest must leadm you prove that Ragnos only ruled because he was loved and not powerful, you prove that killing Simus does not make him powerful, you prove that he was more popular then Simus when he took of Simus his head or body depending on how you look on it. You prove that Sadow respected him like the others, and most importantly you prove that Ragnos who is described as a god amongst gods and the most powerful Sith ever is not by showing us prove that Sadow and or Kressh are more powerful.

STart proving things.

Numan
Originally posted by Wesker
So he didn't feel Ragnos' death through the force?

And really... Geek? What are you, 10 years old?

Yeah, I am 10 years old.

"Arguing from ignorance is a debating sin"

What are you, an 80 year old college professor.

Numan
Originally posted by Fishy
We have provided lots of prove Numan, so far you have speculation... In your reply to me, all you give is answers based on speculation..

1. This shows that he was a great leader and inspired many followers.

Or it shows that he was so damned powerful that nobody dared to move against him for more then a hundred years... When have you ever heard of a leader respected enough to last for a 100 years? Nobody was that popular.

2. Naga Sadow saw an oppurtunity with Gav and Jori. It wasn't because Sadow died.

He started his idea of conquest right after Ragnos died, he claimed the title of Dark Lord right away and wanted to go to war right away... He didn't just learn of an oppurtinity.

3. The other Sith did not join Naga Sadow because they didn't respect him but because Sadow manipulated them.

Sadow manipulated them after he was told by Ragnos (who everybody feared) that attacking the republic was foolish. He made them believe the republic was attacking them and instead of listening to Ragnos like Kressh did and they would have done if they respected him as much as you claim they followed Sadow to war.

4. These were people who shared the same ideals as Ragnos and Ludo so it is likely they respected him. You have no proof that they didn't respect him and the only clear proof was that they were allies of Kressh concerning his dispute with Sadow.

Except for the fact thats exactly what everybody says about them and that time.

5. this is not relavent and you are just stalling so I am not goin to answer that.

Do so anyways, you clearly aren't able to answer it.

6. Again slightly irrelavent and wrong. A great leader is a leader who accomplishes much for his/her empire/army etc.

and what would those accomplishments be? A leader that today would destroy 6 million jews to get jobs that would invade all of Europe to get more lands for its people would not be considered good, 60 years ago a big part of a country and many people from other country's considered just that good. Again if a leader is not respected then he can do whatever he wants but it will not be seen as good.

7. We alrady cleared up the fact that nobody betrayed him.

No you haven't... almost everybody went against what he said, thats treason... Especially if they respect and love him as much as you claim.

8. If you are talking about Ragnos, you are completely wrong because he was respected.

Unsupported logical fallacy going against what is said by numerous sources and the people who invented him. Do you have any prove?

9. This is terrible reasoning. Great leadership that gave way to a Golden Age of Sith was what he had.

Terrible reasoning? Its exactly the reason everybody with cannon authority has given us.

Now you start proving Ragnos was respected amongst his followers, you prove that the Sith didn't follow their own ideal of the strongest must leadm you prove that Ragnos only ruled because he was loved and not powerful, you prove that killing Simus does not make him powerful, you prove that he was more popular then Simus when he took of Simus his head or body depending on how you look on it. You prove that Sadow respected him like the others, and most importantly you prove that Ragnos who is described as a god amongst gods and the most powerful Sith ever is not by showing us prove that Sadow and or Kressh are more powerful.

STart proving things.

I don't need to provide proof. All I need to do is to point out your lack of it and disprove what you pass off as evidence. You have not provided any proof and my speculation has been more likely than yours. The problem is everybody around here is a Ragnos fanboy and people who have been here the longest have used your beliefs such as this and used your unearned reputation to make it law. And you call yourselves good debaters.

tdtd
Numan I believe you have been "pwned".

Numan
And I believe that you are a loser.

tdtd
That's nice peaches

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
I don't need to provide proof. All I need to do is to point out your lack of it and disprove what you pass off as evidence. You have not provided any proof and my speculation has been more likely than yours. The problem is everybody around here is a Ragnos fanboy and people who have been here the longest have used your beliefs such as this and used your unearned reputation to make it law. And you call yourselves good debaters.

Why don't you need to prove anything? You are the one going against given quotes and what is accepted, if you wish to argue otherwise then prove up or accept you are wrong.

Wesker
Numan, you have been pwned in more ways than one.

Wesker
Originally posted by Numan
And I believe that you are a loser.

Oh snap, tdtd! Pwned by Numan faith!

"I believe I can fly... I believe I can touch the sky..."

Numan
Originally posted by Numan
And I believe that you are a loser.

You are quite dumb aren't you. I don't need to prove anything because you have not proven anything. Disproving your assumptions is enough in this debate. Anyhow I have to go to bed now so I can continue proving you wrong tomorrow.

Fishy
Originally posted by Numan
You are quite dumb aren't you. I don't need to prove anything because you have not proven anything. Disproving your assumptions is enough in this debate. Anyhow I have to go to bed now so I can continue proving you wrong tomorrow.

You haven't proven anything.. Or disproven anything..

You just stated your own assumption to argue against our assumption, which is in fact created by what we know about Sith society. Your assumption goes against the given facts and quotes about the Sith and Ragnos... So you need to prove up that those things are wrong. That the people who say Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful were wrong, and you need to prove that the Sith society was different in those times then it was only 2 or 3 Sith Lords later when becoming The Dark Lord was all that mattered.

tdtd
Originally posted by Wesker
Oh snap, tdtd! Pwned by Numan faith!

"I believe I can fly... I believe I can touch the sky..."

AHAHAHAHHAAH

Illustrious
Originally posted by DE Calvin
The narrartor seemed more Limited 3rd, or 3rd.

Is that why he constantly pans back and forth between Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Gav and Jori, Empress Teta, and Odan-Urr?

How many 3rd persons is that?

Originally posted by Numan
Firstly this is the first time that the "omniscient narrator" stating this was brought to my attention and I'm going to need some proof. Secondly even if the narrator said that, it is still not good enough. You can interpret what "The Dark Lords of Dark Lords" implies about Ragnos in many different ways. It's too vague and could be referring to a number of things besides ragnos' power. His leadership perhaps, or maybe because of the fact that he ruled for so long - again implying that he was a good leader.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

The two of them bow to his spirit. It's there, it's conclusive, they show fear and subordination.

And Odan-Urr didn't feel Marka Ragnos' passing? Then how come I have this little scan here where Odan-Urr is awaken from a nightmare and sees Marka Ragnos' spirit?

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7643/forcetremble0pp.jpg

Oh wait, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Listen, the omniscient narrator says the exact words:

"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful."

Yes, 2 definitives. Not to mention later sources mention how he has "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the dark side."

Freedon Nadd approaches Exar and mentions that there is "one above " in reference to Marka Ragnos. This is the guy that doesn't seem to take crap from anybody.

Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh are shown making several maneuvers trying to gain power.

Ludo even usurps the title of Dark Lord when Naga leaves for the republic. That's backstabbing. In fact, they even "duel" for the title of Dark Lord. It's clear, they FIGHT for the title of dark lord. The fact Marka Ragnos did not get defeated even on his deathbed is truly remarkable.

In JA, his scepter, an integral part of the game's storyline and depicted in the cutscenes, has the power to raze temples and suck force from entire planets, and imbue non-force sensitives with force powers in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion.

Sorry, it's definitive. The Sith are a martial, power first society.

Do I need to copy and paste the Sith code for you? The last line even says they value power first and foremost. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful. He "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist." Then you have dozens of lines in KotOR supporting his power. You see him crown Exar and Ulic, you see Freedon Nadd admitting his inferiority, you see Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh bowing before him. You see JA Luke pissing his pants and saying they need the "entire Jedi Academy" to "try" to stop Marka Ragnos.

I don't know why you are talking out of your ass, but the opposition has proved his abilities. No one said they can place exactly how strong he is, but they have shown without question that he has never been depicted with an equal.

Originally posted by Numan
You are quite dumb aren't you. I don't need to prove anything because you have not proven anything. Disproving your assumptions is enough in this debate. Anyhow I have to go to bed now so I can continue proving you wrong tomorrow.

Since when? You haven't disproved an assumption. You have answered it with another assumption.

"... but Ragnos COULD HAVE BEEN a master diplomat and have led the Sith through diplomacy."

Too bad that assumption has been trumped numerous times, and you are just too silly to see it.

Wesker
Yes, nap time, child. Ten year olds have to be tucked in early. Maybe mommy will read TOTJ to you.


Btw, in a debate you have to make assertions (Which you have) and then prove them.

tdtd
Thank you illustrious

Wesker
Originally posted by Illustrious
Is that why he constantly pans back and forth between Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Gav and Jori, Empress Teta, and Odan-Urr?

How many 3rd persons is that?



http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

The two of them bow to his spirit. It's there, it's conclusive, they show fear and subordination.

And Odan-Urr didn't feel Marka Ragnos' passing? Then how come I have this little scan here where Odan-Urr is awaken from a nightmare and sees Marka Ragnos' spirit?

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7643/forcetremble0pp.jpg

Oh wait, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Listen, the omniscient narrator says the exact words:

"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful."

Yes, 2 definitives. Not to mention later sources mention how he has "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the dark side."

Freedon Nadd approaches Exar and mentions that there is "one above " in reference to Marka Ragnos. This is the guy that doesn't seem to take crap from anybody.

Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh are shown making several maneuvers trying to gain power.

Ludo even usurps the title of Dark Lord when Naga leaves for the republic. That's backstabbing. In fact, they even "duel" for the title of Dark Lord. It's clear, they FIGHT for the title of dark lord. The fact Marka Ragnos did not get defeated even on his deathbed is truly remarkable.

In JA, his scepter, an integral part of the game's storyline and depicted in the cutscenes, has the power to raze temples and suck force from entire planets, and imbue non-force sensitives with force powers in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion.

Sorry, it's definitive. The Sith are a martial, power first society.

Do I need to copy and paste the Sith code for you? The last line even says they value power first and foremost. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful. He "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist." Then you have dozens of lines in KotOR supporting his power. You see him crown Exar and Ulic, you see Freedon Nadd admitting his inferiority, you see Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh bowing before him. You see JA Luke pissing his pants and saying they need the "entire Jedi Academy" to "try" to stop Marka Ragnos.

I don't know why you are talking out of your ass, but the opposition has proved his abilities. No one said they can place exactly how strong he is, but they have shown without question that he has never been depicted with an equal.



Since when? You haven't disproved an assumption. You have answered it with another assumption.

"... but Ragnos COULD HAVE BEEN a master diplomat and have led the Sith through diplomacy."

Too bad that assumption has been trumped numerous times, and you are just too silly to see it.

Holy shit... QED!

That's the most comprehensive, complete argument for Ragnos' uberness I've ever seen, complete with scans. Numan, you are pwned.

DE Calvin
f he has any pride left after reading that, he will leave this thread.

IKC
He's ten. I doubt he knows how badly he got pwned.

DE Calvin
LOL.

w00t2112
lolz, well we kinda got off topic...so who rekon ragnos wins? and who rekons the skywalkers win?

tdtd
Well as I stated earlier and probably incorrectly, Ragnos=NJO Luke... I don't know if DN luke comes before or after but I imagine adding him would tip the scales in the skywalker's favor..

w00t2112
Yeh i guess, but then again, i did state it isnt exactly a 2 on 1, its more like a 2 fights for one person, but we have no real knowledge of Ragnos's power except its implied he is the most powerful of the most powerful, since i havent exactly heard of any Dark Lord of The Sith dying of natural causes, and still remain unharmed.

IKC
Ragnos is a good deal above Luke of any incarnation. I'm damned confident he takes this.

Darth_Glentract
Nah. DN Luke could give Ragnos a hard time. He definately wouldn't win, but he'd give him a hard time.

tdtd
So I assume DN luke is more powerful than NJO Luke.. I only know of the abilities of NJO luke, haven't heard too many things about Dark Nest.. I'm not too interested in it because after the death of the spirit of Exar Kun, it looks like the knowledge of the ancient jedi/sith was lost, or not mentioned again.

w00t2112
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nah. DN Luke could give Ragnos a hard time. He definately wouldn't win, but he'd give him a hard time.

Especially after Ragnos will be slightly weakened after a titanic battle with NJO luke :P, so you rkn Ragnos takes this?

tdtd
I don't but I could be wrong

Illustrious
Originally posted by w00t2112
Especially after Ragnos will be slightly weakened after a titanic battle with NJO luke :P, so you rkn Ragnos takes this?

From what we know? That's very probable.

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