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who wins? oh btw, i forgot its DE Sidious

Kun and Sids.

Kun and DE Sidious, that's a disgustingly powerful combination.... Then again I think the trio will win as Kun and Sidious will undermine each other throughout the entire battle.

Exar takes them all at the same time while Sidious opens are wormhole to the nearest Starbucks and buys Exar a cup of chi tea.

Duo, easily.

lol im just waiting for the Revan fanboys to roll in...

How about not. They're annoying as all hell. Half the reason I wish KOTOR was never created is because of them.

well zephiel7 will most likely go with revan...since his inlove with him.

I'm in love with her too if she's a chick... If that's wrong then I don't wanna be right.

Just to clarify I am no way a Revan fanboy, but you're acting as if he was a pushover when he was actually in the same league as Exar Kun. Darth Traya and the Jedi Exile were both also on the same league as Sidious so I'm going to have to go with the trio.

Numan, do you have any Proof of that? I cant think of anything that those Jedi/ Sith have done that comes close to even what Kun has done by himself, let alone WITH Sidious. Talk about credentials of WTFpwnage between those two.

Exar was absurdly powerful and so was DE Sidious, both are so powerful it seems almost stupid. The duo takes this no problem.

Neither did anything as great as Revan did in the Star Forge. The amount of dark jedi he killed was incredible. He was by far the greatest in his time.

"Neither did anything as great as Revan did in the Star Forge"

Are you kidding me? Revan killed some dark jedi, Wow...
Sure he was the greatest of his time. Kun was the greatest of his time, and Sidious was the greatest of his time...

Sidious destroyed the Jedi and took over the galaxy. And in DE Sidious was insanely powerful. He could control black holes for god sake.

And Kun, it in essence took the whole Jedi order to 'beat' him (though they didnt actually beat him)

And BOTH could separate themselves from dying by removing their consciousness from their bodies (which is how Sidious survived ROTJ) and which is how Kun was alive to torment Luke on Yavin.

Kun and Sidious have more accomplishments then I could think of off the top of my head alone. Together, I would argue that their accomplishments rival any other two people in the SW galaxy.

The controlling black holes thing was apparantly done by other people too,weak people from what I heard. Sidious destroying the Jedi is also something he didn't do through his fighting skill it doesn't matter at all.

And Kreia did nothing impressive? She destroyed three Jedi masters with a wave of her hand, they just died the entire force ripped from their body's.

Revan did rule over a shit load of Sith was the greatest lightsaber duellist in his era, and possibly one of the bests ever.

The exile always was a mediocere Jedi but then he started to absorb power from people, I have no idea if its cannon that he kept his power or that he lost it again, but if its the first he's also pretty damn powerful.

That all being said the Duo takes them, although I don't see this as an easy fight, but Kreia will die against the lightsaber furry that is Exar Kun. The exile will lose in seconds from either Kun or DE Sidious Revan would stand a chance against either one of them in a lightsaber fight possibly take them he would at the very least take Sidious. Still the power of those two combined would take the trio.

Originally posted by Numan
Neither did anything as great as Revan did in the Star Forge. The amount of dark jedi he killed was incredible. He was by far the greatest in his time.


Numan this isn't a battle of accomplishments, it's a versus forum.. We're talking about power, in which Kun and Sidious have more than the trio. Revan would get it if it were in terms of accomplishments.

It is not canon that Revan killed anyone on board the star forge except Malak. Don't accept his ridiculous argument based on gameplay. Gameplay is not canon! Only storyline is.



And Kun killed a greater, millenia-old Jedi with a wave of his. It's not terribly impressive in the grand scheme of things when you consider that, while they were the top Jedi of their time, they were the top Jedi of an order that had the cream of its ancient Jedi crop brutally murdered 40 years before.



No, Revan ruled over a shitload of wannabes. Any instances of them using Sith magic? How about alchemy?

Oh? What's that? They're essentially a bunch of dark Jedi taking the name "Sith" to frighten the galaxy?



Nonsense. Prove that Revan is a lightsaber great on that level. DE Sidious may not be on Kun's level, but he's way better than Revan.

I haven't read the Sith Wars yet, but what exactly does Kun do to URr with the wave of his hand, nobody's been specific.

I'll remmeber that killing Jedi with a wave of their hand isn't terribly impressive because even though they were the most powerful of the order, even though some of them lived in the time of Exar Kun, and even though you have no real evidence saying that the Order weakened that much, it just wasn't impressive.



They still have the title Sith though, just like Vader did like Dooku did... Would you call them Dark Jedi? And I have no idea if they ever used things like that. Malak the most powerful of them used technology to make himself more powerful and he wasn't the smartest person out there.



DE Sidious lost in a lightsaber fight from Luke... Luke who still wasn't a lightsaber master.

Revan on the other hand is described as a lightsaber master, he defeated a lightsaber prodigy who was more powerful then ever before in that current form, and he had Echani pre-cog that like it or not, was better then that of a Jedi. It let them learn how other people fought, and made them know what the person was going to do before he did it and probably even thought of it.

I've posted this scan numerous times, many of which were direct responses to you.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg



I'll remember that you think these masters were on the level of the truly ancient and powerful masters Kun had assassinated 40 years earlier despite the fact that these masters are in their late sixties at the most and thus maybe were Jedi Knights when Exar Kun was alive, as well as the fact that Ossus was obliterated at that time and therefore they had no access to the secrets stored there, the vast majority of which were lost.

Sorry. KOTOR-era masters are vastly inferior to those of TSW and other incarnations of TOTJ. This is a direct result of Kun's actions.



Calling Vader and Dooku Sith is arguable but they have more legitimacy than Revan and his faux Sith, given that, for them, there was a clear line of succession going all the way back to Ruusan and earlier.

And what kind of technology did Malak use to make himself more powerful? I hope you realize that the Star Forge is not a Sith device.



But he is the same Sidious as ROTS Sidious, except improved. He's no slouch with the lightsaber, but I never said he was the best.



Where is Revan described as a lightsaber master?

Where is it said that Revan used only the lightsaber to defeat Malak (or, even, that he used one at all)?

I like how you're bringing up the ridiculous and stupid precognition point again, ignoring the fact that any trained Force user worth a damn has precognition as well. Untrained ones even had it (Anakin).

hey IKC next time you post arguing with someone include the scans one more time please, thanks... Also this is a no brainer. The Ancient sith way, their magic and alchemy all died with Exar Kun on Yavin 4...

Originally posted by Numan
Just to clarify I am no way a Revan fanboy, but you're acting as if he was a pushover when he was actually in the same league as Exar Kun. Darth Traya and the Jedi Exile were both also on the same league as Sidious so I'm going to have to go with the trio.

Yeah, umm, no.

Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith lords, and DE Sidious is also extremely powerful. The trio's strong, but the only person who could beat the duo would probably be Ragnos.

And/or NJO Luke(please don't flame)

Originally posted by Faroth
Yeah, umm, no.

Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith lords, and DE Sidious is also extremely powerful. The trio's strong, but the only person who could beat the duo would probably be Ragnos.

It's certainly possible that the elite of the ancient Sith could pull it off, but we only have logical inference to support that point, and there's no way to support that.

Nihilus definitely can, and given the right circumstances, others might. Let's not make blanket statements like that.

The Duo wins though.

I detect sarcasm.

In response, I added that scan so that you could see exactly what Exar did to Odan-Urr, as you requested.

If there was no sarcasm, please disregard.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It's certainly possible that the elite of the ancient Sith could pull it off, but we only have logical inference to support that point, and there's no way to support that.

Nihilus definitely can, and given the right circumstances, others might. Let's not make blanket statements like that.

The Duo wins though.

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that Ragnos can definetly do it, hands down. I forgot about Nihilus.

Originally posted by Faroth
Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that Ragnos can definetly do it, hands down. I forgot about Nihilus.

Eh, Ragnos definately take Exar and Sidious? A little bold. Would stand a good chace, yes. But definately take them, not quite.

No, I'd say he could take them. Sidious isn't that great a threat, and Exar would be damned hard-pressed to down Ragnos.

IKC it wasn't sarcasm, i'll look, I forget which post it's at though.

Traya could instant kill Sidious

Then the three would kill Exar

Any proof of that?

Traya Ko'd three Jedi masters with relative ease. She could use the same technique against Sidious.

Exar is a notch above Sidious but Exile and Revan are in his league and could match him shot for shot. When the three of them combine their strength, Exar will ultimately be defeated.

How do you know it would work against him?

Why would it not, it worked against three skilled Jedi masters at once.

If not it would weaken him enough so that one of her other teammates could land the finishing blow.

How do you know she will get the chance or that he can't defend against it if she does? DE Sidious is FAR beyond those thee Masters she killed before.

He's right, Sidious is a lot more powerful than those guys.

Individually, yes.

But if Kreia could do something like that on three masters at once, she could at least severely weaken Sidious with her force drain. It seems to be a technique similar to Nihilus's drain, which we all know is unable to be countered.

Yes Nihilus' technique has no defense... How do you know Krei's doesn't have a defense? I consider Revan on par with Kun which is probably going to get me flamed but I'm quite sure Kun can brush off her technique with the wave of his hand... And if this is DE Sidious we're talking about, Krei won't be able to catch him off guard.

Originally posted by IKC
No, I'd say he could take them. Sidious isn't that great a threat, and Exar would be damned hard-pressed to down Ragnos.
And you are proclaiming others to be fanboys?

I'm a Ragnos Fanboy

Originally posted by zephiel7
Individually, yes.

But if Kreia could do something like that on three masters at once, she could at least severely weaken Sidious with her force drain. It seems to be a technique similar to Nihilus's drain, which we all know is unable to be countered.

That's useless extrapolation.

If you are so sure, tell me:

1.) Exactly what that attack was, and cite canon references as to what it is.
2.) The dynamics of that attack, and cite canon references.
3.) The ease and repeatability of that attack, and cite canon references.
4.) How the attack "instakills," and cite canon references.
5.) Who may use the attack, and cite canon references.
6.) Show proof of it working (or give viable deductive reasoning for it) on an individual like Sidious, and cite canon references.

You can't, it's never been established that Kreia's move was Nihilus, nor was it ever established it was anywhere near the same scale (it isn't), nor is it established that it could take down someone as powerful as DE Sidious, who has executed a few things that are also near instakill.

By this logic. Exar waves his hand and instakills Kreia, then Revan, then the Exile because he did it against Odan-Urr.

And you are proclaiming others to be fanboys?

What about that post was fanboyish? Sidious has never shown to be that much of a threat to Ragnos. Honestly, no one has. He has used scans and logical evidence to support that Kun is superior to DE Sidious. And Kun can not beat Ragnos. So why wouldn't it stand to reason that someone who is inferior (Sidious to Kun) to someone who is inferior (Kun to Ragnos) would lose rather easily to the top guy (Sidious to Ragnos)?

Oh wait, you don't have anything backing that up.

Odan-Urr, of course, is a Jedi Master of much greater repute than the Replacements that Kreia killed on Dantooine.

im curious, most people agreed that Ragnos could take both DN Luke and NJO Luke, in one on one, one after the other, im pretty sure DN Luke will stand a good chance agaisnt Kun and Sidious, and NJO Luke will put up an extremely good fight, but nevertheless get defeated
, on btw, didnt you read IKC's post? Almost all Jedi secrets were destroyed on Ossus, as well as the secrets on Yavin 4, meaning that the sith magic and alchemy studied and created by Naga Sadow, is also destroyed, as a resutl of Kun.

Oh btw, im also wondering about Nihilus's ability, is it definite that his technique has no defense, i mean the secrets lost during the Exar Kun war, perhaps they had a defense against Nihilus's ability, since Nomi Sunrider's ability of blocking someone from the force was never truly used again.

Dont flame me, im not trying to place The Dark Lords of the Sith from Exar kun and before as gods, although i do admit, i consider them as gods..

Flames wouldn't be appropriate, your placement is accurate if hyperbolic.

The only known defense is the Exile, who is a wound in the force.

However, it is said in game that the ability is derived from the Ancient Sith, so somewhere along the line, some ancient Sith had that ability or something similar and it is entirely possible that individual became Dark Lord or the rest of the Ancient Sith developed resistance/defense against that attack. A lot of secrets of the Sith were lost in that millenia, so I'm not surprised if much of the lore, magic, alchemy, and general dark side techniques were lost too. And the Ancient Sith were "godlike."

Indeed they were Godlike. A lot of ancient sith techniques were lost between the hyperspace war, the freedon nadd uprising, and the rise of exar kun.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Exar is a notch above Sidious but Exile and Revan are in his league and could match him shot for shot. When the three of them combine their strength, Exar will ultimately be defeated.

Now that Illustrious has shot down your ridiculous assertion that Traya could instakill Sidious, I'll ask this:

What in God's name makes you think Revan and the Exile are anywhere near the league of Exar Kun?

In terms of what, accomplishments or raw power?

They really aren't in either DE Sidious or Exar Kun's league. The duo win, and have time for tea afterwards.

Yea in terms of Raw power Revan can't beat Kun.. Maybe not even DE Sidious...

Then it can be argued that the Ancient Sith wouldnt neccesary be "eaten" by Nihilus, since the technique originated from them, and considering if someone like Ragnos could be eaten, it'll be a wonder why he wasnt eaten, so the conclusion can be stated that Nihilus wouldnt be able to eat most of the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith.

The only reason that Revan would've been powerful would be due to his knowledge of the force, but considering Kun, destroyed almost all the secrets that were avaliable, between the Ancient Sith to the end of the Exar Kun war.

I also wonder why the people say that Traya could insta-kill people, i mean, Traya herself says that the Ancient Sith look like children with toys, and its also curious that even though Exar Kun only 40 years preceded them, the quote could be reffered to Kun as well.

The reason being, most of the knowledge left down from the Ancient Sith was also avaliable to Kun, he also had these Ancient Sith assisting him ie Freedon Nadd, even though he wasn't a Dark Lord, Ragnos himself states that Exar Kun will bring about the Golden Age of the Sith.

By saying this, Exar Kun would not rank with the Ancient Sith, but being crowned by such godlike Sith, he would atleast be superior to all those that followed him, considering after Kun, no other Dark Lord was "crowned" thereby it could mean none of them were "worthy" or strong enough to be crowned.

Youre right... You have Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh, Nadd, and finally Kun rounding out the ancient sith idea, power, and knowledge..

What in God's name makes you think Revan and the Exile are anywhere near the league of Exar Kun?

Revan is obviously in the league of Exar Kun.

Point one

Noob: Exar Kun can shoot huge blasts of like energy that pwnZ his opponents.

Yes yes, I have heard this rhetoric before and frankly I dont see how this makes him any more superior. His abilitiy to shoot giant blasts didn't help Exar in his fight against Ulic. Revan was also proficient in using the force to annihiliate his enemies. He was able to use force storm, which is clearly stated by the Rakatans as they and their scouting parties were annihiliated.

Point two

Noob: Exarz killz deh Vodo Bass. Like he can EmPowER is staveff.

So what? Revan defeated Darth Malak, who with Revan was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his time. Malak defeated Kavar, THE duelist of the time, and set him scurrying back home with his tail between his legs. Malak was able to control the power of the star forge. Malak was able to contend with Revan. This alone is proof that Malak AT LEAST equals a guy who can empower his staff to withstand lightsabers.

noob: Revan is sooo stupid. He was like beaten by his own apprentice.

Exar was pwned, (or was going to be) when Ulic betrayed him. Both these figures were betrayed by weaker apprentices. Criticize Revan's lack of foresight, and you Exar fans are just hitting yourselves across the head.

noob: Exar made his own type of lightsaber!

So? Yoda stuck with sigle bladed lightsaber and was one of the best damn duelists IN Star Wars. Tulak Hord, the best duelist in STAR WARS, wasn't the most original fellow either.

noob: It took thousands of Jedi to defeat Exar.

Nah. It took thousands of Jedi to scare Exar into picking the coward's path and "run away."

It didn't help him in his fight against Ulic because he didn't use them. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the fight, but it was a pure lightsaber fight that was interrupted shortly after it began by the spirit of Ragnos.

By that logic, Sidious' eyes didn't help him since he didn't turn his head and see Vader try to pick him up. It's ridiculous.

As for Revan's "force storm" nonsense:

For one, prove that he even used a Force attack. The Rakatans called it lightning from the sky, which could easily have been an attack from a ship.

Second, prove that it is a fraction as effective as this:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

As you can see, Kun's blasts (which he can use repeatedly without apparently tiring) rip through the Sith wyrm with ease and blast holes in the temple walls. I don't think mere lightning would have been very helpful here.



Prove up. I want quotes from credible sources that they're the greatest duelists.



Actually, it's stated Malak lost his jaw to a Jedi. Kavar here is the most likely candidate. I like how you have no proof of the circumstances of their fight but you instead assume that Malak wtfpwns, despite the lack of evidence. Good going, fanboy







First of all, point out which of us argued that because Revan was betrayed that makes him inferior. I'd love to know.

And how was Exar going to be defeated before Ulic betrayed him, hm?



Actually, I could name at least six or seven individuals who would tool Yoda in a saber fight.

And Tulak the best? According to some old bat that has never seen him fight and only stated he was the best lightsaber fighter among the ancient Sith, none of which even used lightsabers? Good call! I bet I'm the best spatula duelist of my entire University, then. I must pwn all!

One could make a better case for Kun himself being the best duelist in Star Wars.



http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

So what would not have been the "coward's path" for Exar here, fanboy? What action would you have suggested to him, hm?

By the way, does he look frightened in that scan or this one? I think not:

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/580/nofeartheend6xg.th.jpg

And this is what the Jedi did: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4144/jediattack7ne.th.jpg

Any more fallacious nonsense, fanboy?

Noob: Revan usez the force to beat ze Rakatans!!!11shift-abuse!11!!

See how stupid that is? Love how you can demean people who kick your ass in a debate.

First off, the Rakatans said Revan beat them, it was never depicted how. By that logic, because Nadd said Exar Kun was great, he was.



I love how of all the points you have yet to counter, you pick "empowering his staff."

Couldn't beat the other arguments or what? Decided that logic was above you?

What about Vodo being the most revered and respected of all the depicted masters in the TOTJ comics (and even the Freedon Nadd Uprising)?

What about Vodo being the leader of a far more martial Jedi Order?

What about Vodo being described canonically as extremely powerful?

What about Vodo shown as having 600 years of time to perfect the Jedi teachings (which existed on Ossus).

Oh wait, clearly Malak is superior to Vodo right?

And Kavar as the duelist? How so? He's not even the top councilmember of his council. It's possible he lopped of Malak's jaw. You have no ****ing clue about the circumstances of that fight, yet you can make some bullshit judgment?

Yep, in the mind of a fanboy.

And how does those feats put him "at least equal" to Vodo? Where's the context? How does being able to beat a guy who wasn't even the most respected member of his council put him over a guy that was? How does being able to power the star forge put him on a level superior to someone who never tried? How does being able to contend with Revan compare with someone who was arguably the most revered, respected, and powerful master of the Jedi Order even before Revan was born?

Oh wait. It doesn't... you're making generalizations and conclusions that aren't supported by the facts.

Noob: Well, teh NJO Luuuuukke controlled a black hole!! He > SWU!!



When the hell did anyone ever say that?

You're the one that tried to convince everyone (mighty unsuccessfully, I might add) that Revan was superior intellectually than Exar Kun. Yet, even you admit they suffered the same similar downfalls. Wait, so how is he intellectually superior?

Great job undermining your own point, hypocrite.



Tulak Hord wasn't original?

Where was this mentioned? Where was ANYTHING ABOUT TULAK HORD MENTIONED besides by Traya?

Uhm... nowhere.

In fact, he had his holocron. And considering most Sith used Sith Swords, it's more than likely he had his own style too.

The point is that Exar Kun was smart enough and prolific enough to create his own lightsaber style that was unfamiliar with the old conventions and managed to pwn everyone he met with it.



That's great. Especially considering the "coward" can still kick Revan's ass.











And...

you ignored my post.

What, decided that proving up about Traya's ability was too hard, so you decided to make thinly veiled attacks towards the "noob" that is kicking your ass in debate?

Zephiel7
as i stated, Exar Kun destroyed most of the secrets of BOTH the SITH and the JEDI, so accordingly, Revan did not have access to many secrets that are truly "godlike" powers, ie nihilus's eating/sucking the force ability, and dont say it was just his nature, true he was specialised in it, but it was derived from the technique tha the Ancient Sith used.

Exar Kun, craved knowledge though mabye not as much as Revan, he had access to Naga Sadow's invention as well as the Sith holocron and Jedi secrets he gained on Ossus before it was destroyed.

Since most of the Jedi Masters in Kun's time, had access to the knowledge on Ossus, it would be logical to assume, that the Jedi there ie; Vodo will have gained more knowledge, and though Kun didn't destroy the jedi he did cause them alot of grief, knowledge wise, so how on earth was Revan going to have the knowledge Kun did? Btw the oldest jedi in Kotor were 50-60, so they wouldnt access the forbidden knowledge ie the holocrons that contained the Jedi/Sith secrets.

As well, Revan never invented anything to name, Kun invented his unique saber style and his infamous Double bladed Lightsaber, thus, it can be assumed Kun > Revan in Lightsaber combat, why? He bested Vodo, one of the oldest Jedi Masters, whom had experience and being De Facto Ruler of the Jedi Order, he had acces to all the Jedi/Sith holocrons, however Kun toyed with Vodo until finally he killed him, in less than 10 seconds.

As stated, Kun learned much Sith alchemy as well as Sith magic, he gained various Sith and Jedi Holocrons, he was taught by Freedon Nadd. While Revan, searched far and wide for knowledge, yet though he found heaps, much of the knowledge that was avalaible 40 years ago was destroyed, thereby crushing any chance for Revan to surpass the knowledge Kun had.

Finally, The Ancient Sith, whom rarely accepted anyone with lesser power, glady embraced Kun as one of their own, Marka Ragnos The Most Powerful of the Most powerful, himself stated that Kun would bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, yet you may think it would be based on more on military victories and etc. BUT for Kun to hold such a title and to hold such a prophecy would imply that Kun had enormous power, he was the last the crowned Dark Lord of the Sith, and the last to be accepted as a true "sith".

Although this is my opinion, i do believe that with the end of Exar Kun, meant the end of the Golden Age of the Sith, meaning the end of the Ancient Sith Empire with Kun as its last successor.

On another note, its curious to note that, most of the Ancient Sith reside in korriban and other various places as spirits, yet this only extended to Kun, who ripped luke from his body 4000 years later. The question i ask is, why were Malak and Revan never became Spirits? The Sith are known for the hunger for power and revenge and if Malak and Revan are as powerful as you say, why did they never come back?
Reason: Revan and Malak were never counted nor stated as any of the Ancient Sith's equals, they never acknowledged them neither did they accept them.
The Ancient Sith under all conditions respected the powerful, thats how Ragnos ruled them for 150 years, and Kun was strong enough that he was accepted.

Conclusion : Exar Kun > Darth Revan

I agree with everything you've just stated especially Kun being the last "true sith". However it is not known whether Reven becomes a spirit or not, or what happens to him until KOTOR III

Its conclusive, most of the spirits we see extend to DE times, except Kun who got destroyed by luke and his academy, remember than these Ancient Sith also taught Sidious as well even if they didnt share with Sidious their secrets, if Revan had indeed become a ghost wouldn't he appear with these Dark Lords?

Let's wait til KOTOR III and we'll know.. Everything after KOTOR 1 about Revan is inconclusive.

Yeh if Bioware and/or Obisidian bother to make it, and if they do they better make it worthwhile..but i stand with my belief atm, hopefully these game makers might make something that happened between the kotor era to the Ruusan era