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Infinity Gauntlet gives it's wielder total control over 616 universe.

Wanda recreated the 616 universe.

Who would have more authority in 616 universe?

Wanda. Easily. Warlock couldn't alter reality on Strange with the IG. Wanda made Strange into a Hollywood Dr. Phil. He only recovered because she WANTED him to.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda. Easily. Warlock couldn't alter reality on Strange with the IG. Wanda made Strange into a Hollywood Dr. Phil. He only recovered because she WANTED him to.

i'm convinced!

Wanda>Jean Grey

I live in Brazil House of M is just starting around here. How Wanda became that powerful? It's sounds to me just like an upper HOTU level!!!!!!!!!!!! How can that be??????

Somebody explain to me what's SW powers, please. Does it have source for such power or something? Or is it just the probability thing????????????????????

SW controls causality itself, as Xavier said in Excalibur. That means anything that falls in the realm of possibility (which is EVERYTHING) falls under the control of Wanda. Her power reached throughout the universe, altering past and present. As a side effect of her power, she inadvertently tore open a hole between realities, and her power leaked through it, caused all kinds of destruction that collapsed countless universes (read the HoM issues of Uncanny X-men for details). The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.

GalacticStorm will probably come in and tell you some bullshit about chaos waves. Don't listen to him. Nobody does. Right, Whirly?

Thank's!!!

But did she lose her omnipotence after repairing the hole?

No. SW didn't mean to do it....so she didn't even notice when it got fixed. It had no effect on her power.

As to her current status...unknown.

be nice anyway GS said PF is megaversal so Wanda cant be above the PF.

Originally posted by Mider
be nice anyway GS said PF is megaversal so Wanda cant be above the PF.

Depends on what you mean by "above". The Phoenix Force is a form of energy that animates life. It's the sum total of all current and potential lifeforce. It's nothing that you can fight per se, anymore so than you can fight carbon or oxygen. It just...is. Everything that exists is comprised of the Phoenix Force, being the energy of life. That would include Scarlet Witch. In that sense, she falls under the jurisdiction of the Phoenix Force.

That said, while the Phoenix Force has a consciousness that spans the multiverse, it can't act on the physical plane in any one universe without a host. But as soon as it takes a host, it takes on all the vulnerabilities and weaknesses of that host. The power level varies based on how strong its connection is to the Force, how much power it's granted, and how good it is with that power. That's why you can see a Phoenix beat Galactus one issue and lose to Thor the next.

A host can be manipulated, weakened, defeated, even destroyed. It has no effect on the Phoenix Force as a whole, so destroying the host won't destroy the Force. Jean Grey has a special relationship with the Force, but she still doesn't use the full might of the Phoenix Force...the more power you use, the greater your odds of being consumed. As such, she generally puts limits on her power and doesn't go beyond that limit.

All that said, I put Wanda and her feats above any Phoenix host. Phoenix hosts tend to average at around herald level, and only a few times have gotten to Galactus level.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Wanda>Jean Grey

No. Jean is Phoenix.

Originally posted by demigawd
The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.

How can be that greatest feat of power, while even Upper cosmic level beings didn't get involve. So they weren't worried about. This doesn't come close to THOTU (everyone got scared the shit out of them) or Phoenix (who actully stopped the MKryan Crystal).
I choose IG over Wanda, since LT himself had to come and no one worried about Wanda.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No. Jean is Phoenix.


Lotta good that did her against Magneto, Xorneto, Mastermind, lasers, Thor, Beyonder, and everybody else who owned her.



Because Wanda wasn't trying to destroy the multiverse. She accidentally tore a hole in reality that needed a repair. You don't need cosmics to fix it. But that demonstrates that Wanda has the ability to break open the walls between realities and bring the whole thing crashing down...if she wanted to.

She didn't. So no harm done. But all the destruction she accidentally caused across the multiverse was pretty vicious - moreso than anything IG HOTU or Phoenix did.

Originally posted by demigawd
Lotta good that did her against Magneto, Xorneto, Mastermind, lasers, Thor, Beyonder, and everybody else who owned her.

I see you give those (literally insects against her in power level) beyond Phoenix, wow, Demigawd. But you know what, even you don't take that seriously. Becuase you know they are nothing to Phoenix. This is Phoenix.

Originally posted by demigawd
Because Wanda wasn't trying to destroy the multiverse. She accidentally tore a hole in reality that needed a repair. You don't need cosmics to fix it. But that demonstrates that Wanda has the ability to break open the walls between realities and bring the whole thing crashing down...if she wanted to.

She didn't. So no harm done. But all the destruction she accidentally caused across the multiverse was pretty vicious - moreso than anything IG HOTU or Phoenix did.

Yeah, yeah, right.
Everyone knows (even those whod doesn't admitt, but knows who Phoenix is) that Phoenix goes far beyond Wanda (no matter what Wanda shows), Phoenix goes far beyond her.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I see you give those (literally insects against her in power level) beyond Phoenix, wow, Demigawd. But you know what, even you don't take that seriously. Becuase you know they are nothing to Phoenix. This is Phoenix.


I named them because they're people who already beat Phoenix, either as Jean or as Rachel. They're insects to her? heh...she must be allergic to insect bites...



haha, you basically said, "I don't care about mere FEATS. No matter how much more powerful you've proven Wanda's feats to be over Jean's, Jean will always be beyond her anyway. Why? Because she just IS. So there!".

Well, I guess that settles that, huh?

Originally posted by demigawd
I named them because they're people who already beat Phoenix, either as Jean or as Rachel. They're insects to her? heh...she must be allergic to insect bites...

It doesn't matter, because you know they are nothing to her and that is what is bothering you and than you mentioned that up, but it really bothers you because you know that Magento is less than insect aganst Phoenix (he beat her, but you know his power level is litearally like nothing to Phoenix and Jean could put him out of existance like nothing).
Phoenix could easily put ouf existence the likes of Rune King Thor.
And you know Magneto and Phoenix shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentences.

Originally posted by demigawd
haha, you basically said, "I don't care about mere FEATS. No matter how much more powerful you've proven Wanda's feats to be over Jean's, Jean will always be beyond her anyway. Why? Because she just IS. So there!".

Well, I guess that settles that, huh?

No, because nothign Wanda showed was more powerful than Phoenix.

Originally posted by demigawd
haha, you basically said, "I don't care about mere FEATS. No matter how much more powerful you've proven Wanda's feats to be over Jean's

No, really where did you get that from. WTF. You didn't prove. The Phoenix had to come to stop MKryann Crystal, while Earth Beings stopped Wanda (so do the math). So no, I didn't sound like I thought you proved Wanda feat being over Pheonix feat. So you didn't prove anything. Phoenix holdin universe in the pale of her hand. Again far greater than anything Wanda did. About THOTU, crushing MARVEL MOST POWERUFL BEINGS EVER, EVER, all at once, like they were nothing. Immesurably gretear feat than Wanda (who was stopped by Earth beings).

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, really where did you get that from. WTF. You didn't prove. The Phoenix had to come to stop MKryann Crystal, while Earth Beings stopped Wanda (so do the math)... Wanda (who was stopped by Earth beings). No other Earth being besides Wanda Maximoff was capable of stopping Wanda Maximoff. No one stopped her, she stopped herself.

Ah! A table!

hmm, this wanda thing has always intrigued me. demi, you claim she falls within it's juridiction, and i can understand that. but . . . is she capable of rewriting the universe/multiverse in such a way that she could refasjion it WITHOUT a pf??

hmmm . . .

even if she can't affect the multi/megaverse, i wonder if she could change a SINGLE universe to the point where no pf is needed and yet life STILL be present in that universe???

i like thisw thread people are saying what I have always said.

if she WERE capable of recreating a universe sans pf, wouldn't that technically place her above -- or at least outside -- the pf's sphere of influence? wouldn't that also say that the pf is NOT essential to 'all life' past and future and potential, in the megaverse?

in fact, carrying it a step further -- the very POSSIBILITY that she MAY be able to do this (ie -- has POTENTIAL to do it) puts a lie to the fact that the pf is responsible for ALL 'potential' life, because 'potentially', wanda could create a universe populated with life but NOT bound to the phoenix force . . .

hmmm . . .

can't wait for gs to show . . .

Originally posted by demigawd
SW controls causality itself, as Xavier said in Excalibur. That means anything that falls in the realm of possibility (which is EVERYTHING) falls under the control of Wanda. Her power reached throughout the universe, altering past and present. As a side effect of her power, she inadvertently tore open a hole between realities, and her power leaked through it, caused all kinds of destruction that collapsed countless universes (read the HoM issues of Uncanny X-men for details). The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.

GalacticStorm will probably come in and tell you some bullshit about chaos waves. Don't listen to him. Nobody does. Right, Whirly?



Do you know what, i really cant wait for Wandas bio to come out in about 6 months to finally shut down your House of M delusions.

With that out of the way lets gets started.

Wanda may control causality, but she has not been shown to have total control of causality. Thats the crux of the matter. Youre getting too excited over what such an ability could entail and forgetting to acknowledge the limits she has shown in applying said ability. Wanda said she couldnt singlehandedly control the process of bringing about the house of m reality. It actually came about with the support of her brother and the power of Xavier to co-ordinate the application of her power as stated on panel. On her own House of M wouldnt have been able to happen as she stated as such that point is not debatable.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4295/scan00120zw.th.jpg

In fact we dont even conclusively know she warped 616 in its entirety as opposed to earth 616 and any and all events and races tied to its history. Nowhere is it stated that Wanda warped the entire universe. Nowhere. The only mention anywhere of the extent of the reality warping is in Uncanny X-men 462 by Roma:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9210/uncannyxmen462p189za.th.jpg

Find somewhere where it conclusively states Wanda warped 616 in its entirety and you can have that point. Until then with no specific description of the extent of the alteration anywhere in House of M but Romas above then it was nothing but global. She warped 616 and everything tied to its history she could affect.

As a result of Wandas manipulations a hole was tore through the walls which separate reality. A chaos wave then began to spill through which if left unchecked would have reached other realities and could potentially have ended up collapsing the multiverse. Whether the chaos wave was a leakage of Wandas power generated in 616 or a spark initialised by the disruption of 616s dimensional barrier is never cleared up. The above scene where its described is open to interpretation, its ambiguous as such no side can claim their interpretation to be the correct one without an on panel statement supporting it as so. Result of Wandas amateur tamperings or the leakage of Wandas power from 616 into other realities who knows? Either way nothing on that matter can be drawn from the scene and treated as fact in debate. Please understand that.

You've also stated that it leaked into other realities and collapsed them. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say thats poor recollection after a very hectic work schedule my friend. Us JLAKMC are beyond lying of course.

Either way you're wrong on 2 points. The wave only ever affected Otherworld and while it disrupted reality there in short bursts it far from collapsed it. As shown on panel. Please show me a reference describing how another reality was affected. We both know thats an impossibility so it aint gonna happen.

Also it sounds as if your treating the POTENTIAL destruction the chaos wave COULD have caused as a feat. Ummm how does that work out?

Youre wrong to do that for a number of reasons:

The chaos wave got stopped long before by a few mutants and Juggernaut.

The chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda as opposed to being set off by Wanda. (Regardless of your opinion please dont reply with a long list of reasons as to why you think it was generated by her, ive heard it all before and its irrelevant as its not conclusively stated in the few scenes where Roma actually describes the chaos wave)

So Wanda has no definitive feat outside of warping 616 or at least Earth 616. In fact she never even warped 616 reality as opposed to imposing a veil of reality as it were on top of 616. As shown by Lalyla Miller.

If we were to argue as if it was canon just for debating purposes, Wandas reality warp affect gradually leaking from universe to universe does not equate her to a multiversal power. Its only a leak. Theres no evidence to conclusively show she could generate this energy and apply it across the universes of the multiverse simultaneously. She hasnt demonstrated such multiversal range. It was a leak of the energies she generated in 616 which Roma speculated could spill over from universe to universe if allowed to. It wasnt. It got stopped by a band of mutants. Thats multiversal in potential destructive range not power.The other universes wouldnt have been totally warped they would have collapsed as a result of said energies spilling over into them. It was a domino effect. Not an effect consciously applied and maintained simultaneously across the multiverse. So while the chaos wave had the potential to in the end be one of the most destructive events seen in Marvel. It certainly wouldnt have been a feat as Wanda never generated it and applied it. It was just a spillover, that would have gone from universe to universe if left unchecked. Thats strictly universal level.

Phoenix has applied its power simultaneously across the entire multiverse to connect all the universes within an energy matrix as detailed by Merlyn in Excalibur. Phoenix has held 616 in her hand and manipulated it consciously on a sub atomic level.Even If we were attributing the chaos wave to Wandas it still doesnt match up as its just a spill over , not a conscious application across the multiverse and theres nothing to suggest she could so that.

Originally posted by demigawd
Depends on what you mean by "above". The Phoenix Force is a form of energy that animates life. It's the sum total of all current and potential lifeforce. It's nothing that you can fight per se, anymore so than you can fight carbon or oxygen. It just...is. Everything that exists is comprised of the Phoenix Force, being the energy of life. That would include Scarlet Witch. In that sense, she falls under the jurisdiction of the Phoenix Force.

That said, while the Phoenix Force has a consciousness that spans the multiverse, it can't act on the physical plane in any one universe without a host. But as soon as it takes a host, it takes on all the vulnerabilities and weaknesses of that host. The power level varies based on how strong its connection is to the Force, how much power it's granted, and how good it is with that power. That's why you can see a Phoenix beat Galactus one issue and lose to Thor the next.

A host can be manipulated, weakened, defeated, even destroyed. It has no effect on the Phoenix Force as a whole, so destroying the host won't destroy the Force. Jean Grey has a special relationship with the Force, but she still doesn't use the full might of the Phoenix Force...the more power you use, the greater your odds of being consumed. As such, she generally puts limits on her power and doesn't go beyond that limit.

All that said, I put Wanda and her feats above any Phoenix host. Phoenix hosts tend to average at around herald level, and only a few times have gotten to Galactus level.

The first part of your post is correct, however there are a number of points in the remainder where i beg to differ. Phoenix as we all know can act without a host, however if it were to do so it would consume all of the potential life energy of the universe preventing any future life from developing.

Wandas top feat is warping reality in 616 and nothing more. Even if we were to say the chaos wave was the spillover of her power generated in 616 for arguments sake, its still just a spillover not the generation and conscious application of her power simultaneously across the universes of the multiverse. It would have been nothing but a domino effect. Theres nothing to suggest she could do that and the desctruction the wave could potentially have caused never came to fruition as the wave was halted by New Excalibur. So it is not a feat.

Originally posted by demigawd

She didn't. So no harm done. But all the destruction she accidentally caused across the multiverse was pretty vicious - moreso than anything IG HOTU or Phoenix did.

Wanda caused no destruction across the multiverse. If the chaos wave was left unchecked it could potentially have caused destruction all over the multiverse. Not a feat. Because it never happened and not certainly wouldnt have been a demonstration of multiversal power as it would have been a domino effect. A spillover of the energies generated in 616 reaching other realities and causing havoc.

No one read that

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
No one read that

I have to go w/ GS it wasn't prove th SW rewrote the entire E-616 continuum.

This remember me of Morgana when she stoled the Odin/Surtur sword and claimed that she had restarted the creation

its gotta be adam he has control of powers and that funny gem that gives him power

It wasn't true she just altered reality on a planetary level and closed some dimensional barriers

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
jpg]Also it sounds as if your treating the POTENTIAL destruction the chaos wave COULD have caused as a feat.

Excatly, and than he is telling me about feat.

A few things u need to do Demi:

Reference an instance where the scale of Wandas reality warping is determined. (So far we only have Romas "global alteration". Bearing in mind Wandas intentions i.e making all her friends happy i hardly think warping the entire universe is necessary. Theres also nothing stated proving she did or could do that. No opinion to the contrary please, just on panel evidence.)

Reference an instance where its stated universes actually were collapsed as you claimed.( All we have so far is a scene where Otherworld is temporarily caught up in a reality warp. Nowhere else was affected)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Do you know what, i really cant wait for Wandas bio to come out in about 6 months to finally shut down your House of M delusions.

With that out of the way lets gets started.

Wanda may control causality, but she has not been shown to have total control of causality. Thats the crux of the matter. Youre getting too excited over what such an ability could entail and forgetting to acknowledge the limits she has shown in applying said ability. Wanda said she couldnt singlehandedly control the process of bringing about the house of m reality. It actually came about with the support of her brother and the power of Xavier to co-ordinate the application of her power as stated on panel. On her own House of M wouldnt have been able to happen as she stated as such that point is not debatable.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4295/scan00120zw.th.jpg

In fact we dont even conclusively know she warped 616 in its entirety as opposed to earth 616 and any and all events and races tied to its history. Nowhere is it stated that Wanda warped the entire universe. Nowhere. The only mention anywhere of the extent of the reality warping is in Uncanny X-men 462 by Roma:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9210/uncannyxmen462p189za.th.jpg

Find somewhere where it conclusively states Wanda warped 616 in its entirety and you can have that point. Until then with no specific description of the extent of the alteration anywhere in House of M but Romas above then it was nothing but global. She warped 616 and everything tied to its history she could affect.

As a result of Wandas manipulations a hole was tore through the walls which separate reality. A chaos wave then began to spill through which if left unchecked would have reached other realities and could potentially have ended up collapsing the multiverse. Whether the chaos wave was a leakage of Wandas power generated in 616 or a spark initialised by the disruption of 616s dimensional barrier is never cleared up. The above scene where its described is open to interpretation, its ambiguous as such no side can claim their interpretation to be the correct one without an on panel statement supporting it as so. Result of Wandas amateur tamperings or the leakage of Wandas power from 616 into other realities who knows? Either way nothing on that matter can be drawn from the scene and treated as fact in debate. Please understand that.

You've also stated that it leaked into other realities and collapsed them. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say thats poor recollection after a very hectic work schedule my friend. Us JLAKMC are beyond lying of course.

Either way you're wrong on 2 points. The wave only ever affected Otherworld and while it disrupted reality there in short bursts it far from collapsed it. As shown on panel. Please show me a reference describing how another reality was affected. We both know thats an impossibility so it aint gonna happen.

Also it sounds as if your treating the POTENTIAL destruction the chaos wave COULD have caused as a feat. Ummm how does that work out?

Youre wrong to do that for a number of reasons:

The chaos wave got stopped long before by a few mutants and Juggernaut.

The chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda as opposed to being set off by Wanda. (Regardless of your opinion please dont reply with a long list of reasons as to why you think it was generated by her, ive heard it all before and its irrelevant as its not conclusively stated in the few scenes where Roma actually describes the chaos wave)

So Wanda has no definitive feat outside of warping 616 or at least Earth 616. In fact she never even warped 616 reality as opposed to imposing a veil of reality as it were on top of 616. As shown by Lalyla Miller.

If we were to argue as if it was canon just for debating purposes, Wandas reality warp affect gradually leaking from universe to universe does not equate her to a multiversal power. Its only a leak. Theres no evidence to conclusively show she could generate this energy and apply it across the universes of the multiverse simultaneously. She hasnt demonstrated such multiversal range. It was a leak of the energies she generated in 616 which Roma speculated could spill over from universe to universe if allowed to. It wasnt. It got stopped by a band of mutants. Thats multiversal in potential destructive range not power.The other universes wouldnt have been totally warped they would have collapsed as a result of said energies spilling over into them. It was a domino effect. Not an effect consciously applied and maintained simultaneously across the multiverse. So while the chaos wave had the potential to in the end be one of the most destructive events seen in Marvel. It certainly wouldnt have been a feat as Wanda never generated it and applied it. It was just a spillover, that would have gone from universe to universe if left unchecked. Thats strictly universal level.

Phoenix has applied its power simultaneously across the entire multiverse to connect all the universes within an energy matrix as detailed by Merlyn in Excalibur. Phoenix has held 616 in her hand and manipulated it consciously on a sub atomic level.Even If we were attributing the chaos wave to Wandas it still doesnt match up as its just a spill over , not a conscious application across the multiverse and theres nothing to suggest she could so that.

wow, gs, demi got himself OWNED!



well said.

Originally posted by Diunic
I have to go w/ GS it wasn't prove th SW rewrote the entire E-616 continuum.

Precisely. Wanda only wanted to make her friends and family happy so she created a world where mutants were the ruling class, the majority. For all we know she warped ony Earth 616 and all connected to its history she could affect.

With the only reference for the scale of the alteration being Roma(the omniversal majestrix) saying it was a "global alteration", we have nothing else on panel to go by. Anything else is just opinion and speculation.

someone go to valaint vs image im begging u

Originally posted by leonidas
wow, gs, demi got himself OWNED!



well said.

Thank u Leo.

AW wins with the I Gauntlet with one simple thought.

Originally posted by Diunic
AW wins with the I Gauntlet with one simple thought.

adam would win i dont know much about him but i know hes powerful

you need to send me that series, gs, and whatever tie ins you have. i gotta read this thing for myself!

and demi, it seems we ALL have our 'slade's' . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
wow, gs, demi got himself OWNED!



well said.

Much as I hate to feed Demis ego Leo, highly overinflated as it is. I am not sure he has.

WHAT????? GS is totally right here folks!!!!!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Much as I hate to feed Demis ego Leo, highly overinflated as it is. I am not sure he has.

really? cool. then i await the convincing rebuttal. so you think . . . what exactly, whirly? i admit to having not read the series. you're thoughts are ALWAYS welcomed!!

Originally posted by Diunic
WHAT????? GS is totally right here folks!!!!!

Nah, wait for Demis rebuttal

Originally posted by leonidas
really? cool. then i await the convincing rebuttal. so you think . . . what exactly, whirly? i admit to having not read the series. you're thoughts are ALWAYS welcomed!!

I think Demi will not allow GS to own him like this, I think GS has spurious evidence.

Originally posted by leonidas


if she WERE capable of recreating a universe sans pf, wouldn't that technically place her above -- or at least outside -- the pf's sphere of influence? wouldn't that also say that the pf is NOT essential to 'all life' past and future and potential, in the megaverse?

in fact, carrying it a step further -- the very POSSIBILITY that she MAY be able to do this (ie -- has POTENTIAL to do it) puts a lie to the fact that the pf is responsible for ALL 'potential' life, because 'potentially', wanda could create a universe populated with life but NOT bound to the phoenix force . . .

hmmm . . .

can't wait for gs to show . . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I think Demi will not allow GS to own him like this, I think GS has spurious evidence.

i'm officially interested . . .

So do I.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Much as I hate to feed Demis ego Leo, highly overinflated as it is. I am not sure he has.

Come on we're all team mates here. Why dont you chip in?

I for one know that theres no references other than Romas ("global alteration" regarding the extent of Wandas manipulations in 616

Theres also no mention whatsoever of any realities other than the pocket dimension which is Otherworld being affected. Id like to think that was just poor recollection. The chaos wave if left unchecked could have collapsed the multiverse. It never got the chance.

The only definite feat of Wandas is warping Earth 616(or at least imposing a reality on top of it) The chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by her. Theres nothing stating that regardless of Demis contrary OPINION. Even if we treated it as her energies, a spillover of those energies generated in 616 through a hole she accidentally ripped in the reality brane would not be a feat of hers. The same would hold true if the chaos wave was left unchecked and it collapsed most of the multiverse. It wouldnt have been something she consciously brought about by generating enough power and applying to every reality of the multiverse. Theres nothing whatsoever to suggest she could do that and given the fact that she required aid to maintain her reality warp of Earth 616 i highly doubt that. If i lit a match and caused a fire and left unchecked it burnt down most of a neighbourhood, would the destruction of the neighbourhood be a feat achieved directly by my power?

Nothing but a domino effect.

Beautiful speech!

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm officially interested . . .

wait and see

Originally posted by Diunic
Beautiful speech!

Hello my friend have you git your shoes on our are the feet going in wearing "socks"

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
wait and see

I too am anticipating what he has to say. The thing is i know its gonna be his opinion on why the events should be interpreted in the way he does with nothing on panel to conclusively verify his stance. There literally is nothing on panel to prove his viewpoint so if i log on tomorrow and dont see any on panel statements i have missed in my reading of house of M, im just going to ignore his inevitably long opinion based post.

SW is not that all-powerful. Period

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Hello my friend have you git your shoes on our are the feet going in wearing "socks"

Do you really hate me that much as to attack people who side with me?

I notice you also were happy to comment on Demis post but are not so willing to do so with mine. Why is that? Despite Demi having no conclusive supporting evidence and a number of incorrect assertions you accepted it, yet have dismissed my on panel evidence as spurious. Why is that?

Why dont you chip in and say why my highlighting of said faults in Demis post and subsequent posting of on panel evidence isnt good enough. Im very interested to hear your thoughts Whirly.

HAHAHAHHA!

Originally posted by leonidas
so you think . . . what exactly, whirly? i admit to having not read the series. you're thoughts are ALWAYS welcomed!!

INDEED

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I think Demi will not allow GS to own him like this,

Thats what i luv about JLAKMC we are so stubborn and bigheaded

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats what i luv about JLAKMC we are so stubborn and bigheaded That's what happens when you stick a bunch of badasses together.

I look forward to Demi hearing GS "(p)own3d" him!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I look forward to Demi hearing GS "(p)own3d" him!

You havent read House of M either have u.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You havent read House of M either have u.

Yes I have, I thought it was shit. The only good thing was the lack of mutants after it.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yes I have, I thought it was shit. The only good thing was the lack of mutants after it.

It was shit. Id and Infinite crisis are better.

If thats the case why is my evidence spurious?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was shit. Id and Infinite crisis are better.

If thats the case why is my evidence spurious?

I don't want to steal Demis thunder This is your beef with him You (p)own3d him!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I don't want to steal Demis thunder This is your beef with him You (p)own3d him!

So youre just hoping for Demi to come up with something which can validate your comment that my evidence is spurious right?

If you'd read house of M as you claim you'd know that the points i listed, the points Demis case depends upon have no on panel support anywhere in the series. So how is he going to reply with anything but opinion to the contrary?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre just hoping for Demi to come up with something which can validate your comment that my evidence is spurious right?

If you'd read house of M as you claim you'd know that the points i listed, the points Demis case depends upon have no on panel support anywhere in the series. So how is he going to reply with anything but opinion to the contrary?

I will leave it to Demi to show you, you have not (p)0Wn3D himz. do you like my use of Div speech! It makes my posts look hip!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I will leave it to Demi to show you, you have not (p)0Wn3D himz. do you like my use of Div speech! It makes my posts look hip!

So you lie in hope of Demi coming up with something to validate your unfounded comments? Cool.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So you lie in hope of Demi coming up with something to validate your unfounded comments? Cool.

No lie - I know your evidence is spurious I will enjoy watching Demi crush you for alluding to (p)owNzing himz!!!!!

Demi boyfriend is furious!!! Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Diunic
Demi boyfriend is furious!!! Watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
No lie - I know your evidence is spurious I will enjoy watching Demi crush you for alluding to (p)owNzing himz!!!!!

I alluded to nothing. People just read the posts and told it how they saw it. Whether Demi changes their minds or not who knows but i will reply. There should be no doubt about that.

That's how it is.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I look forward to Demi hearing GS "(p)own3d" him!

me too!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Do you know what, i really cant wait for Wandas bio to come out in about 6 months to finally shut down your House of M delusions.

With that out of the way lets gets started.

Wanda may control causality, but she has not been shown to have total control of causality. Thats the crux of the matter. Youre getting too excited over what such an ability could entail and forgetting to acknowledge the limits she has shown in applying said ability. Wanda said she couldnt singlehandedly control the process of bringing about the house of m reality. It actually came about with the support of her brother and the power of Xavier to co-ordinate the application of her power as stated on panel. On her own House of M wouldnt have been able to happen as she stated as such that point is not debatable.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4295/scan00120zw.th.jpg

In fact we dont even conclusively know she warped 616 in its entirety as opposed to earth 616 and any and all events and races tied to its history. Nowhere is it stated that Wanda warped the entire universe. Nowhere. The only mention anywhere of the extent of the reality warping is in Uncanny X-men 462 by Roma:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9210/uncannyxmen462p189za.th.jpg

Find somewhere where it conclusively states Wanda warped 616 in its entirety and you can have that point. Until then with no specific description of the extent of the alteration anywhere in House of M but Romas above then it was nothing but global. She warped 616 and everything tied to its history she could affect.

As a result of Wandas manipulations a hole was tore through the walls which separate reality. A chaos wave then began to spill through which if left unchecked would have reached other realities and could potentially have ended up collapsing the multiverse. Whether the chaos wave was a leakage of Wandas power generated in 616 or a spark initialised by the disruption of 616s dimensional barrier is never cleared up. The above scene where its described is open to interpretation, its ambiguous as such no side can claim their interpretation to be the correct one without an on panel statement supporting it as so. Result of Wandas amateur tamperings or the leakage of Wandas power from 616 into other realities who knows? Either way nothing on that matter can be drawn from the scene and treated as fact in debate. Please understand that.

You've also stated that it leaked into other realities and collapsed them. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say thats poor recollection after a very hectic work schedule my friend. Us JLAKMC are beyond lying of course.

Either way you're wrong on 2 points. The wave only ever affected Otherworld and while it disrupted reality there in short bursts it far from collapsed it. As shown on panel. Please show me a reference describing how another reality was affected. We both know thats an impossibility so it aint gonna happen.

Also it sounds as if your treating the POTENTIAL destruction the chaos wave COULD have caused as a feat. Ummm how does that work out?

Youre wrong to do that for a number of reasons:

The chaos wave got stopped long before by a few mutants and Juggernaut.

The chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda as opposed to being set off by Wanda. (Regardless of your opinion please dont reply with a long list of reasons as to why you think it was generated by her, ive heard it all before and its irrelevant as its not conclusively stated in the few scenes where Roma actually describes the chaos wave)

So Wanda has no definitive feat outside of warping 616 or at least Earth 616. In fact she never even warped 616 reality as opposed to imposing a veil of reality as it were on top of 616. As shown by Lalyla Miller.

If we were to argue as if it was canon just for debating purposes, Wandas reality warp affect gradually leaking from universe to universe does not equate her to a multiversal power. Its only a leak. Theres no evidence to conclusively show she could generate this energy and apply it across the universes of the multiverse simultaneously. She hasnt demonstrated such multiversal range. It was a leak of the energies she generated in 616 which Roma speculated could spill over from universe to universe if allowed to. It wasnt. It got stopped by a band of mutants. Thats multiversal in potential destructive range not power.The other universes wouldnt have been totally warped they would have collapsed as a result of said energies spilling over into them. It was a domino effect. Not an effect consciously applied and maintained simultaneously across the multiverse. So while the chaos wave had the potential to in the end be one of the most destructive events seen in Marvel. It certainly wouldnt have been a feat as Wanda never generated it and applied it. It was just a spillover, that would have gone from universe to universe if left unchecked. Thats strictly universal level.

Phoenix has applied its power simultaneously across the entire multiverse to connect all the universes within an energy matrix as detailed by Merlyn in Excalibur. Phoenix has held 616 in her hand and manipulated it consciously on a sub atomic level.Even If we were attributing the chaos wave to Wandas it still doesnt match up as its just a spill over , not a conscious application across the multiverse and theres nothing to suggest she could so that.
So complicated. This is why I like speedblitzes.

Originally posted by The Ion
So complicated. This is why I like speedblitzes.

LOL

if demi can't comeback from gs's beatdown, i'm sure he'll say she just recreates the universe and gives herself flash-like speed in which case she simply blitzes adam OR the pf!!

damn, whirly's right -- gs doesn't stand a chance . . . cry

Originally posted by leonidas


if demi can't comeback from gs's beatdown, i'm sure he'll say she just recreates the universe and gives herself flash-like speed in which case she simply blitzes adam OR the pf!!

damn, whirly's right -- gs doesn't stand a chance . . . cry

It's funny because it's true GS's (p)0wnaG3 of Demi will be short live in my opinon!!!!!!

damn whirly, you are hip! i can't translate it, but it DOES look cool . . .



and where is demi!?
i'm bored at work, damn him!

Warlock wins. He has more experience being crazy (and he's better at it too).

Demi can't even reply!!!!!!

heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:



However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:



Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:



which is why:



Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?

The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765



In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

Originally posted by demigawd
heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:



However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:



Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:



which is why:



Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765



In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

And the (p)0wNaG3 swings back to Demi as GS's spurious evidence is crushed under the weight of concise logic!

scarlet witch. rather easily.

Originally posted by demigawd
heh.

GS's strategy is to bury people with so many words that they lose the will to respond. I don't need to go point by point to rebut every iota of nonsense he spits out.

A couple of points.

1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:



However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:



Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Also, the bio states:



which is why:



Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?

The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

On the next page (don't have a scan for it), you see planets crashing together and all sorts of universal destruction.

Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

Additionally, Otherworld is likewise crumbling in that same issue.

This backs up my description:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=2765



In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

clap

well done. there DOES seem to be evidence to support your claims. damn, i gotta read that series . . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
And the (p)0wNaG3 swings back to Demi as GS's spurious evidence is crushed under the weight of concise logic!



for now, my friend, for now . . .

pity we can't find anyone other than jla members worthy to battle us!!



jla assemble!

Oh wait, I'm not done punishing GS yet...

Let's re-examine GS's most precious Phoenix feat - repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. Most people take that as a given because they don't bother scrutinizing the 50+ pages of drivel he spouts. I let it stand because I know it's important to GS, but I think it's time for that grace period to end...

Uncanny X-men #108. If you have it, turn to it. If you don't, read the details here:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1401

Note a few things:

It's actually SCOTT who cracks the crystal, not D'Ken. Yes, a basic optic blast starts the end of the universe.



So what was it that's breaking free that mighty Scott Summers unleashed?

A neutron galaxy. What does this neutron galaxy do?



Oh...so that's it? A baby universe is there and will replace this one? Sounds kinda Infinity Gauntlet level.

OK, so we're looking at the end of the universe. But luckily, we have the almighty Phoenix here to help, right? There's nothing she can't do, right?

Welllll.....



Uh oh!

But if Phoenix and all her infinite power can't do it....who can?



STORM! MY HERO!!!

She also gets Corsair - a human - to help out, powerhouse that he is.

So that should be enough, right? I mean, between the infinite power of Phoenix, Storm and Corsair, M'kraan is easy pickings, isn't it?

Welllll...



Man, AGAIN? What more does she need? She's PHOENIX, dammit! PHOENIX!!



Wait...so that's it? Phoenix's repair of the M'Kraan Crystal, the nexus of, er, a neutron GALAXY, needed the entire team of X-men to help her out? And even after that, she was laid out unconscious?

Wow, I'm so impressed!

Now, GS's predictable response is that Wanda "needed" Pietro and Xavier to create HoM. That's actually incorrect. She needed Xavier to read the minds of her friends and give them what they want. She could have changed the universe to whatever she wanted, but she wanted a utopia. Xavier penetrating the minds and greatest desires of her friends let her know how to restructure the universe to make them happiest. If she wanted to make the universe a series of giant Wanda statues and Cocoa Puffs, believe me...she would have no use for Xavier or Pietro to do it. She didn't...she wanted to give them their greatest desires.

World of difference.

So - in conclusion, we have Phoenix who can't even contain a galaxy without help vs. Scarlet Witch, who destroyed universe after universe by accident and altered THIS universe totally and completely - past and present.

No contest, guys.

A couple of miscellaneous notes:

Could Wanda have altered reality to make herself a telepath and read the minds of all the heroes herself? Yeah, probably. If she could turn off mutants powers, she could alter them. But just because there's a million ways of solving a problem and you pick one doesn't mean that you couldn't have done the same with the other 999,999.

To answer your question, Leonidas - could Wanda recreate the universe without the Phoenix Force, but instead with, say, the ReedForce or marshmellows? Actually yes.

Does that put Wanda above the Phoenix Force? Well, she could put herself above the Phoenix Force if she wanted. But there's a lot to be said for the *importance* of something to the grander scheme of things.

WHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT? That's a joke. GS is right. Demi is trying to mess up things.

Originally posted by Diunic
WHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT? That's a joke. GS is right. Demi is trying to mess up things.

ok, I know you're a big fan of his and all, but tell me....if I'm not making things up, and that image I posted isn't something I drew myself, and those quotes I gave are the actual descriptions of those issues I cited...does it convince you? Tell me that it's not compelling. And be honest.

Here's my problem with Wanda vs Warlock: how exactly is she going to defeat him? She can make her desires true: so can Warlock. So what? When has Wanda ever demonstrated this level of power in combat, crazy or sane? Just because she can do it subconsciously doesn't mean that she can channel that power effectively when needed. It also doesn't mean that she can do anything to Warlock before he defeats her.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh wait, I'm not done punishing GS yet...

Let's re-examine GS's most precious Phoenix feat - repairing the M'Kraan Crystal. Most people take that as a given because they don't bother scrutinizing the 50+ pages of drivel he spouts. I let it stand because I know it's important to GS, but I think it's time for that grace period to end...

Uncanny X-men #108. If you have it, turn to it. If you don't, read the details here:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1401

Note a few things:

It's actually SCOTT who cracks the crystal, not D'Ken. Yes, a basic optic blast starts the end of the universe.



So what was it that's breaking free that mighty Scott Summers unleashed?

A neutron galaxy. What does this neutron galaxy do?



Oh...so that's it? A baby universe is there and will replace this one? Sounds kinda Infinity Gauntlet level.

OK, so we're looking at the end of the universe. But luckily, we have the almighty Phoenix here to help, right? There's nothing she can't do, right?

Welllll.....



Uh oh!

But if Phoenix and all her infinite power can't do it....who can?



STORM! MY HERO!!!

She also gets Corsair - a human - to help out, powerhouse that he is.

So that should be enough, right? I mean, between the infinite power of Phoenix, Storm and Corsair, M'kraan is easy pickings, isn't it?

Welllll...



Man, AGAIN? What more does she need? She's PHOENIX, dammit! PHOENIX!!



Wait...so that's it? Phoenix's repair of the M'Kraan Crystal, the nexus of, er, a neutron GALAXY, needed the entire team of X-men to help her out? And even after that, she was laid out unconscious?

Wow, I'm so impressed!

Now, GS's predictable response is that Wanda "needed" Pietro and Xavier to create HoM. That's actually incorrect. She needed Xavier to read the minds of her friends and give them what they want. She could have changed the universe to whatever she wanted, but she wanted a utopia. Xavier penetrating the minds and greatest desires of her friends let her know how to restructure the universe to make them happiest. If she wanted to make the universe a series of giant Wanda statues and Cocoa Puffs, believe me...she would have no use for Xavier or Pietro to do it. She didn't...she wanted to give them their greatest desires.

World of difference.

So - in conclusion, we have Phoenix who can't even contain a galaxy without help vs. Scarlet Witch, who destroyed universe after universe by accident and altered THIS universe totally and completely - past and present.

No contest, guys.

Well i'm convinced - although it was a bit long Demi

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Well i'm convinced - although it was a bit long Demi

426 words 1.5 pages in MS Word...not so bad. And pretty conclusive if I do say so myself.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Here's my problem with Wanda vs Warlock: how exactly is she going to defeat him? She can make her desires true: so can Warlock. So what? When has Wanda ever demonstrated this level of power in combat, crazy or sane? Just because she can do it subconsciously doesn't mean that she can channel that power effectively when needed. It also doesn't mean that she can do anything to Warlock before he defeats her.

When you're that powerful, you don't have to "combat" anybody. You just wish them away.

Warlock's reality altering was resisted and countered by Strange. When Wanda altered reality, Strange became Dr. Phil and was none the wiser. That shows that her reality control is greater than that of Warlock's.

Originally posted by demigawd
426 words 1.5 pages in MS Word...not so bad. And pretty conclusive if I do say so myself.



When you're that powerful, you don't have to "combat" anybody. You just wish them away.

Warlock's reality altering was resisted and countered by Strange. When Wanda altered reality, Strange became Dr. Phil and was none the wiser. That shows that her reality control is greater than that of Warlock's.
This isn't necessarily true. You're trying to compare situations where factors are different. First of all, why can't Warlock just wish Wanda away? Second of all, when Strange countered what Warlock was doing: A. He was aware of what was happening as opposed to not knowing with Wanda, and B. He was drawing on extra-dimensional power. There's nothing that says Strange wouldn't have been able to counter Wanda had he been prepared.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
This isn't necessarily true. You're trying to compare situations where factors are different. First of all, why can't Warlock just wish Wanda away? Second of all, when Strange countered what Warlock was doing: A. He was aware of what was happening as opposed to not knowing with Wanda, and B. He was drawing on extra-dimensional power. There's nothing that says Strange wouldn't have been able to counter Wanda had he been prepared.

That's fine, but when we're dealing with that level of power, all we have to go on are feats and comparisons. Warlock's only two feats with the IG were both losing efforts - to the Living Tribunal and to Strange.

Strange brought Wanda down, too, but she wasn't conscious while she was fighting him. On two occasions after that, she changed reality and Strange was helpless...he was among the changed. You can see in HoM #7 that he was trying to block her, but he couldn't. In the scan I showed above, an alternate reality Strange was also among the victims. She was able to more completely transform reality than Warlock ever did.

*could* Warlock wish Wanda away? Maybe. *could* Wanda wish Warlock away? Maybe. Could they resist each other? Maybe. It's largely speculation since we don't know what percentage of infinity they each represent. But when you look at respective showings, I have to give the nod to Wanda, as her infinity seems to go a little bit higher than his.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's fine, but when we're dealing with that level of power, all we have to go on are feats and comparisons. Warlock's only two feats with the IG were both losing efforts - to the Living Tribunal and to Strange.

Strange brought Wanda down, too, but she wasn't conscious while she was fighting him. On two occasions after that, she changed reality and Strange was helpless...he was among the changed. You can see in HoM #7 that he was trying to block her, but he couldn't. In the scan I showed above, an alternate reality Strange was also among the victims. She was able to more completely transform reality than Warlock ever did.

*could* Warlock wish Wanda away? Maybe. *could* Wanda wish Warlock away? Maybe. Could they resist each other? Maybe. It's largely speculation since we don't know what percentage of infinity they each represent. But when you look at respective showings, I have to give the nod to Wanda, as her infinity seems to go a little bit higher than his.
That's not true. Those were his only defeats. For starters, remember when Warlock was confronted by Strange he was juggling the solar system. Considering that the inhabitants of Earth weren't directly affected by his juggling, I'd count that as pretty good control over reality. There's also restoring order after the IG affair. Also remember that the only person able to divest Warlock of his power was himself.

LT was also able to prevent Warlock's power from working, as the scan below shows.

Warlock's only unchallenged feat was juggling solar systems, which is a galactic level feat, not a universal level feat. Additionally, remember that Wanda didn't just alter the present 616 universe...she altered the timeline. She changed the past completely and altered everybody's history. Strange was unable to counter it, even after he got his memores and powers back. Warlock was actually unable to do the same thing with the IG, and instead used the mind gem to make Strange believe he prevented Strange from ever becoming Sorcerer Supreme. But Strange countered it, just as he countered Warlock's control over reality.

That wasn't the case with Wanda.

Also remember that during her battle with Strange, Wanda was able to summon the same powers and demons that Strange did - while crazy and half-conscious. That would include all the tools Strange used to counter Warlock.

It just seemed like her control over reality was more complete than Warlock's. Warlock's control was pretty good, yes, but again, I give her the nod overall.

Yup game over (p)0wnaG3 to Demi in my opinion

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yup game over (p)0wnaG3 to Demi in my opinion

Your totally unbiased opinion, I'm sure.

Originally posted by demigawd
Your totally unbiased opinion, I'm sure.

Of course, I would have no ulterior motives (Whirly turns and sTROLLs out of the thread)

damn, there is one long ass essay heading our way. i can feel it in me bones . . .
fear

hahaha....that nobody is going to read. As usual.

I don't have the time or the inclination to go point by point with him for 20 pages, which is his usual strategy. I'm going to try to keep further replies as concise as possible and avoid getting bogged down, which is easy to do when debating him.

Of course I say that NOW....

ahh, come on. the essays are all part of his charm!

Originally posted by leonidas
ahh, come on. the essays are all part of his charm!



Yes...it's very "charming". But a bich to respond to, lol.

what on earth does this debate have to do with the Pheonix force we are talking about scarlet witch and adam warlock with the IG scarlet witches powers so so massive they leaked into other dimensions the IG gives you power over one universe there scarlet witch has a better chance of winning

Originally posted by Mider
what on earth does this debate have to do with the Pheonix force we are talking about scarlet witch and adam warlock with the IG scarlet witches powers so so massive they leaked into other dimensions the IG gives you power over one universe there scarlet witch has a better chance of winning

You know how it is, Mider. You can't name cosmic entities without GS storming in and inserting the usual Phoenix propaganda.

GS:Phoenix::Thanos:death

There are inconsistencies regarding whether Phoenix can manifest without a host or not, it says it can't in the handbook, but it also says that the Phoenix Force, not an avatar, trapped Le Bete Noir in the still cooling earth, so how is that! Now if Wanda is as powerful as we hope she can allow the Phoenix to manifest without a host to fight it, but then it remains to be seen if she can simply banish it at full power once the laws of possibility are altered to let it in. Think of it like a sorcerer summoning a demon, but not being able to send it back. Phoenix only comes to the realm of manifestation when it needs to be there,so I doubt it would do so just to have a battle with a mortal no matter how powerful. Wandas disruption of 616 may not be as big as we think considering only the otherworlders seem to be worried (they seem to be only concerned with other Earths), but the higher ups (Living Tribunal, Eternity, Phoenix etc..) don't seem to be all that concerned, and it's not because they can't do anything, because there have been many times when reality was in danger by other higher powers and they have intervened, when things beyond mortal comprehension were involved, everybody can pretty much comprehend what Wanda did, so let the mortals fix their own problem.

Well, Le Bete Noir is a mystical ancient evil that first became known during Gambit and Bishop....at the time it didn't have a physical form, either. IIRC, a physical form was part of its punishment, the same way the Beyonder ended up trapped in a moral chick's form. So it's explainawayable (I just made up a word).

And you can't say the cosmics didn't get involved....they did. Roma and Saturyne are both guardians of the omniverse. They're cosmic beings. Technically, multiversal matters are handled by THEM, not by Eternity, who only has jurisdiction over his universe, or any of the other asbstracts, who are all universal in scope only. LT acts only when a "motion" is filed. Roma felt they could handle it because the tear was accidental, and fixable. She was right.

Why didn't Phoenix get involved? When does Phoenix EVER get involved? Usually Phoenix gets DRAGGED into things. Phoenix is NEVER proactive, and usually gets owned when she is involved.

Also, Phoenix is dead and shattered.

Roma and that other chick are on the lower tier of cosmic beings, that's why they were to handle the problem, and they are Omiversal not Multiversal there's a difference, they only handle one part of the existence, all the different Earths. Not to mention the power base of Otherworld was only made possible because of the Phoenix.

And who actually owned Phoenix, and please don't say Xorn as that was something that was needed so it could die to be reborn 150 years later, somebody else. I wouldn't say Phoenix is dragged into anything because nobody has ever summoned it (even Feron I didn't summon it he was in a state of meditation it was curious about him), it appears when it wants to. Phoenix is shattered, it's mortal shell is dead, and she's not even dead anymore just gone. I know this thread really shouldn't even be dealing with the Phoenix so the last thing I will say is that if Meggan could stop that chaoswave, the Phoenix would have definitely been able to do it and more than likely survive it.

whos meggan and since when is pheonix shattered?

Meggan was Brian Braddocks wife an elemental metamorph/faerie/mutant, Phoenix has been shattered since Endsong.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Roma and that other chick are on the lower tier of cosmic beings, that's why they were to handle the problem, and they are Omiversal not Multiversal there's a difference, they only handle one part of the existence, all the different Earths. Not to mention the power base of Otherworld was only made possible because of the Phoenix.

And who actually owned Phoenix, and please don't say Xorn as that was something that was needed so it could die to be reborn 150 years later, somebody else. I wouldn't say Phoenix is dragged into anything because nobody has ever summoned it (even Feron I didn't summon it he was in a state of meditation it was curious about him), it appears when it wants to. Phoenix is shattered, it's mortal shell is dead, and she's not even dead anymore just gone. I know this thread really shouldn't even be dealing with the Phoenix so the last thing I will say is that if Meggan could stop that chaoswave, the Phoenix would have definitely been able to do it and more than likely survive it.

Er...multiverse: multiple universes. Omniverse: ALL multiverses. Roma and Sat are not a lower tier of cosmic beings...their job is to guard the entire omniverse and matters affecting multiple universes/multiverses. Eternity and the cosmics are state court, Roma/Sat are federal court. One isn't more powerful than the other...they serve different purposes.

LT is the supreme court, but it didn't get to that point.

As for who owned Phoenix - Phoenix actually has a pretty lousy record in combat. What major victories does she have? She stalemated Galactus and got the best of him, but that's really her only major victory. Thor beat her in one shot, Magneto beat her, she was successfully manipulated by Mastermind, Xavier fought her off, Beyonder, a cosmic cube, owned her...it's not that impressive.

Meggan didn't stop the chaos wave, Meggan closed the breach through which the chaos wave was leaking. That's not the same as defeating Wanda's reality-controlling powers, or defeating Wanda, since Wanda didn't intentionally open the hole between realities in the first place. If Wanda knew what she did, she would give her blessings to fix it.

If Meggan stopped the chaos wave itself, it would have restored House of M.

Oh, I wanted to add: if Phoenix were anywhere need as mighty and all-powerful as you thought, would she really need to allow herself to be killed and shattered to appear in the future? The wielder of the IG or HOTU could exist in all times at once, or simply skip into the future and come back into the past without anybody even knowing you were gone. Why would Phoenix have to go through such dramatic lengths just to show up a hundred years or so later? A bit much, don't you think?

No - Phoenix died because she was caught by Xorn and her mortal shell was destroyed. Therefore, the Phoenix Force can no longer manifest itself on the physical plane until it's pieced itself together, which didn't happen for 100+ years.

That's right - Xorn took the Phoenix Force out of the picture for over a century.

But you're right, this is off-topic.

Rachel, Psylocke, Brian, and Nocturne closed the breach she was on the other side to halt the wave. Their jurisdiction is shown to be only along the part of existence that deals with Earth and it's parallels, sorry i will say no more, but i have been drinking vast amounts of beer. The beings who have these items you speak of are mortal, when i say mortal I mean they are of the mortal plane, the abstracts are called that for a reason they have ways and motives beyond the mortal coil. Wanda created a powerful wave indeed, but it was stopped, do think anybody can stop the big bang which the Phoenix initiates?

It's not just Earth...Roma was going to destroy the entire 616 reality to be rid of Wanda. It wouldn't have been the end of the Earth...it would have been the end of 616.

The fact that Roma has the jurisdiction to end an entire universe, which would destroy its Eternity, Galactus, Oblivion, Infinity, Phoenix, etc. shows the level of authority she has in the grander scheme of things. Do you think if it were a matter beneath the Abstracts that they'd simply agree to all being destroyed by Roma? Because that's what she was about to do.

And nobody stopped the chaos wave but Wanda herself. She and she alone brought the HoM to an end.

If this was a cosmic threat why were none of the alien races touched? And where exactly does Roma get this authority? Her place in the scheme of things would not be possible had not the Phoenix Force been the most important part of projecting that Omniversal Matrix.

damn annihilation must be a major event since roma shows up, anyway isnt pheonix megaversal?

I don't even think megaversal is a real comic word, but the core of creation and the heart of Phoenix are the same thing I'd say it's just plain old versal

does anyone know what annihilation is about?

Originally posted by LordKaos
If this was a cosmic threat why were none of the alien races touched? And where exactly does Roma get this authority? Her place in the scheme of things would not be possible had not the Phoenix Force been the most important part of projecting that Omniversal Matrix.

Ah, I see...you'd have to read my other posts to understand the full extent.

If you look at the scan I posted on page 5, it shows multiple alien races among those affected by the chaos wave. It also includes GALACTUS among them.

Additionally, in 616, the Kree, Shi'ar and Skrulls are all shown to be affected by Wanda's reality changes.

As for where Roma gets her authority - it's unspecified. I think it has something to do with a long line of omniversal guardians, like Merlin, etc. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. In fact, it exists outside of the multiverse, so it's not even part of the Phoenix Force.

Your right I didn't see the other, but there is no long line of omniversal guardians Merlin was the first and is her father as you know, It was he, Feron and Necrom who created the Omniversal Matrix and the need for a guardian, after using the power of the Phoenix to actualize the Matrix to begin with, it has a lot to do with the Phoenix, they being three of the most powerful magic users ever could not accomplish their goal without the Phoenix.

So how exactly does SW defeat Warlock?

i dont agree with the "omniverse"... has this been something stated by marvel??? isnt that supposed to include our reality and dc, and all other comics in it??? so now, marvel characters have jurisdiction over superman??? sounds kinda suspect.


i thought multiverse, was all realities from marvel??? i could be mistaken....

AW w/ IG can only be defeated by LT,THOTU,TOAA. Wanda would be rapped despite all of her chaos power.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Your right I didn't see the other, but there is no long line of omniversal guardians Merlin was the first and is her father as you know, It was he, Feron and Necrom who created the Omniversal Matrix and the need for a guardian, after using the power of the Phoenix to actualize the Matrix to begin with, it has a lot to do with the Phoenix, they being three of the most powerful magic users ever could not accomplish their goal without the Phoenix.

Got it. That was a gap in my knowledge there. Well done.

I think the whole purpose of these Great Powers is to help put the universe/multiverse/omniverse in working order. But with that comes the understanding that there are certain functions that they maintain and certain functions that they yield.

That means, essentially, that while Eternity could clearly beat Roma in a fight, by function, Roma has the jurisdiction to just...end Eternity if in her judgment she felt it was necessary to preserve the omniverse. And Eternity would have to accept that. That she is mortal or of the mortal plane doesn't matter in that context.

So Roma has the authority to destroy all the Cosmics and Abstracts in 616 universe, and was going to exercise that authority in an effort to defeat the source of the Chaos Wave (she never realized it was Wanda) - in that sense, it actually shows that Wanda is more dangerous than the Infinity Gauntlet or the Beyonder or Dark Phoenix, or possibly even HOTU.

Does that make more sense?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
So how exactly does SW defeat Warlock?

Well, when beings have "infinite" power, they all pretty much have the same basic attack - "Begone". AW has that power and Wanda has that power. So realistically, the only thing you have to go on is who exercised that power better, more completely and more unchallengably. From feats, I'd say Wanda has shown it.

Originally posted by KillAll
i dont agree with the "omniverse"... has this been something stated by marvel??? isnt that supposed to include our reality and dc, and all other comics in it??? so now, marvel characters have jurisdiction over superman??? sounds kinda suspect.


i thought multiverse, was all realities from marvel??? i could be mistaken....

It's a fair question. But Marvel doesn't define things by keeping other comicbook companies in mind. Historically, when the term "Omniversal Magistrix" was invented, a multiverse was defined as multiple dimensions of existence. So the 4th dimension is a "universe", Mephisto's realm is a "universe", the Beyonder's realm is a "universe", the microverse is a "universe", and all of those "universes" are part of the "multiverse", even though they're actually part of the same 616 Reality.

So when the term "Omniverse" was defined by Marvel, it was meant to include all of the multiverses in one.

We've since come to change some of the definitions signifnicantly. Mephisto's domain is now seen as a "dimension". The Beyonder's realm is now seen as a "pocket universe", and 4D and the Microverse are "planes of existence". The term "universe" is now interchangable with "reality", and that's what 616 and all its pocket universes and side dimensions and planes of existence is defined as - a single universe

In that sense, the "Omniverse" Roma watches over should more accurately be defined as "Multiverse" now, but the name stuck.

Either way, there are only two "courts" that have multiversal (transuniversal) jurisdiction - The Omniversal Magistrix (Roma, Opal) and The Living Tribunal. Everything else is responsible for its own universe.

In that sense, drawing the attention of the Omniversal Magistrix is more significant than getting a bunch of complaining Abstracts, as we saw in the Infinity Gauntlet. As LT said - the wielder of the IG replaces Eternity. He becomes the embodiment of that UNIVERSE. Presumably, anybody who can defeat Eternity (destroy a universe) can defeat the IG. That includes LT, the Infinites, Roma and SW.

That's another reason why I place SW higher up in the scale than the IG.

the longer gs stays away from this thread, the longer his essay becomes . . .



interesting take on the omniverse/multiverse distinction. i'd always thought the 2 could be interchangeable in essence, and that sounds like what you're saying. but isn't there also supposed to be multiple multiverses that comprise the megaverse?? what do you see as the 'largest' entity, mega or omniverse?

Wow Demi! You did a pretty good job on that. I only disagree in the part regarding the SW being above IG or Eternity. They are pretty in the same level. SW does not have multiversal powers like The Infinits, LT or Roma just because her power can affect more than one universe. That's seems very clear to me. And the HOTU IS DEFINITELY above LT, The Infinits and Roma. THOTU is also connected w/ the Omni-reality the thing is that Thanos wasn't able to handle its real power only TOAA is.

Originally posted by demigawd


1)Phoenix's own bio says that the Phoenix Force cannot take action on the physical plane without a host. Behold:

Says no such thing. It says to deal with the M'kraan crystal event Phoenix sought a host to act through. It never said anywhere in the bio that it couldnt act without a host. In fact there are a few examples in its history of Phoenix acting without a host. Without a host Phoenix connected the universes of the multiverse together in an energy matrix, without a host the Phoenix Force sealed the Bete Noir in the Earth. The Phoenix can very well act without a host however it chooses not to because of the harm it causes the creation cycle by becoming a sentient lifeform unto itself within the closed universe system Marvel has.


Originally posted by demigawd
However, the handbook also states that this is the side effect of that:

Nuh-uh. The handbook says no such thing. Taking a host form doesnt automatically result in the Phoenix hungering for power. Thats completely incorrect and not stated anywhere. Misinterpretation.

Dark Phoenix was not the inevitable side effect of Phoenix manifesting as Jean or taking on a host, it was down to Jeans foolish mistakes. After finishing her Phoenix work she shut herself off from the bulk of her power making her vulnerable to the subsequent manipulations of Mastermind. He nurtured in her a hunger for power which part of her embraced and so emerged the Dark Phoenix persona within Jean.


Originally posted by demigawd
Does an all-powerful force need to absorb and consume more energy? Of course not.

Thats the thing though, the only reason Dark Phoenix hungered for more power in the first place was because the Jean persona shut it off from its power source as stated on panel. It wasnt merely because Phoenix took a host form.

So the answer to your question is no. However Dark Phoenix was far from all powerful, Jean saw to that.

Originally posted by demigawd
Also, the bio states

which is why

Which explains losses to the likes of Magneto, Thor, Xorn, Beyonder, manipulations by Mastermind and other such embarassing showings.

If the Phoenix were at all able to interact with physical beings without an avatar, why would it bother using them, knowing how much destruction it causes and knowing that its full might can't be brought to bear with them?

The answer is clear - if CANNOT act without a host, the same way an Abstract can't act without an M-body.

Conclusion: Is the Phoenix Force all powerful? Almost.

Can Pheonix beat anybody down as a result? Absolutely not.

The Phoenix Force is analogous to the central Oan battery. All powerful, but can't fight. The Phoenix avatars are analogous to the Green Lantern corps. They possess a portion of infinite might, but are not themselves infinitely mighty.

Youre making out as if the bio says its human form (Jean) was unable to cope with the power physically. Thats not what it says at all Demi:

At first Greys strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Wyngarde(Mastermind) Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Forces primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix.

In the end Jean couldnt handle the power MENTALLY, that is made quite clear from the bio and from reading the relevant source material which i would highly suggest after reading your post.

After Jean shut herself off from the power, Mastermind began manipulating her, she had of course made herself susceptible in the first place. Phoenix not only embodies the power of creation but is also a creature of passion, the human consciousness was unable to rein in the power and keep it in check. It wasnt for lack of trying however as the Jean persona fought to maintain the psychic circuit breakers hence Dark Phoenixs need to absorb outside energy sources and it was the Jean persona who helped Prof X temporarily contain her Dark Phoenix self in their psychic battle. Its an immense task keeping the power in check in the first place but after Masterminds manipulations (which Jeans actions made possible) Jean didnt stand a chance and so she lost control.

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/3948/uxm137pg34edited4zq.th.jpg

As for your point on Rachel. It says nothing in the bio or on panel about the Force limiting her power because she couldnt physically cope with it. Thats not the case at all. Considering the bio stated that the past Dark Phoenix problem arose because of mental issues if its saying Phoenix learned from its past mistakes then would it not stand to reason that it was limiting her power to a level she could MENTALLY cope with?

Regardless you are unsupported on the notion that it was a physical issue. Plus Rachel while limited in the use of her power has the potential to match her mother the one true avatar.

Jean Grey as Phoenix has never been defeated in a combat situation through lack of power or ability. Never. If she has been defeated its not without on panel or bio explanations telling you that the defeat is not attributable to those factors. Just like when Galactus is defeated by beings like Thor and minor superhero teams like Alpha Flight its always made clear that hes not at full capacity, that there are reasons behind his defeat which have no bearing on his place in the hierarchy.

Prior to cutting off her power Jean toyed with a herald level character, shrugging off his attempts to kill her, before going on to contain the power of the M'kraan crystal, the greatest actual feat in Marvel comics. As stated on panel after that event she shut off her power keeping it at practical levels for day to day application as a member of the X-men. It was then that she was defeated by Magneto and manipulated by Mastermind. Such defeats arent standard fare for a full power, unrestricted Jean as we've seen.

In New X-men Jean talks of having responsibilities to take care of elsewhere, (#147) she has visions of Sublime, the upcoming confrontation with Xorneto and having to cleanse the planet(#128). She then says she doesnt know how long the Phoenix Consciousness will allow her to stay with her friends. (#150) Later on in the very same issue while comforting a defeated Xorneto he suddenly attacks her killing her physical body. She wasnt engaging him in combat, you were prepared for her departure many months prior and in the very same issue, when free of restrictions and engaged in combat she laughed off Firelords attempts to kill her, Logan killed her body a few issues before 150 and she came back immediately a panel later (telling you that if she wanted to she could have returned straight away, but as we were told on panel her work required her to be elsewhere)

Jean as Phoenix has never faced a defeat which has been left unexplained on panel.


Originally posted by demigawd


A Phoenix avatar generally maxes out at around high end herald. When drawing on the lifeforce of future life, it can reach Galactus levels, maybe a bit above it. But to think that it can match the likes of the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU, or can match the feats of Wanda is impossible.

Based on what? Jean as Phoenix has performed ACTUAL on panel feats beyond virtually any being in Marvel so thats conclusively incorrect. The avatars dont draw on and use the power of life unborn. Thats something the Phoenix inadvertently did when it was sentient on the physical plane. Hence its penchant for avatars. The avatars tap directly into the Phoenix Force which lies beyond time and space as stated in Excalibur #64.

Youre failing comes in thinking Jean is restricted because her physical body is unable to cope with the sheer amount of power Phoenix possesses. Thats incorrect. The Phoenix embodies passion among other things and the avatars must be strong willed to rein its power and control its primal urges. The only thing that limits what Jean can do as stated in bios is her strength of mind and breadth of imagination,

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7582/officialhandbookofthemarveluni.th.jpg

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5183/ph03pg172ze.th.jpg

however as stated in New X-men when she gets too close to her power when the limitations of the human consciousness begin to inhibit her, the Phoenix Consciousness takes over. (Which is often displayed on panel by a change in speech bubble and a bold font)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9893/newxmen148pyrate127vy.th.jpg

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8472/newxmen128151sh.th.jpg

Originally posted by demigawd

Now that I'm put Phoenix in her place, let's move on to Wanda:

U really havent Demi. This was very spiteful

Originally posted by demigawd
Look at the scan below. That's the damage Wanda is doing. Look at the alternate reality characters being destroyed. Thing as an X-man. An alien Iron Man. A female Human Torch. And look...look at that foot over there. Over on the top right. Whose foot is that?

Galactus.

You know, the same one it took Phoenix to wear down to starving levels to beat, unwittingly and totally owned BY ACCIDENT by Wanda.

Lo she is mighty.

Youre skipping out vital steps Demi which render your argument invalid. You have yet to come up with any on panel statement or reference conclusively saying that Wanda generated the chaos wave as opposed to just triggerring it. Thats the first step.

Manage to do that and your argument for this almighty Wanda is still invalid as the resultant destruction isnt something directly caused by Wanda anyway. Its not something maintained, controlled or directly performed by Wanda, theres no evidence for that whatsoever its not a feat. Its the equivalent of me yodling in the Alps, causing an avalanche which goes on to devestate the surrounding countryside. Destroying towns and killing loadsa people who could otherwise kick my ass. The resultant destruction isnt a personal feat of mine. Its not something ive done directly or proven to be able to do under my own power. I merely set something off and let nature take its course. Domino effect.

The chaos wave didnt go through destroying universes head on, overpowering the cosmic powers directly, it eroded dimensional walls which held everything together. It attacked the framework, destabilised the structural integrity as stated. Find evidence that Wanda actually generated the wave, that its a spillover of her power and the destruction caused still isnt a feat achieved by her.

Thanos with the IG overpowered the abstracts.

Thanos with HOTU in a direct confrontation overpowered the abstracts and absorbed the universe.

Phoenix consciously had sub-atomic control of an entire universe which she restructured in her palm.

Attribute the wave to Wanda and she still merely cut the strings and had everything else done for her.

She never consciously willed the multiverse to collapse in on its self. Theres nothing to suggest she has anywhere near that scale of power. Its similar to the Parallax situation. He used what power he did have to take advantage of instability in space/time left over by the crisis, all he did could never have been achieved by his own power or at least that has never been proven. It seems Marvel has its very own Parallax.


Originally posted by demigawd


Restricted to Earth? Don't make me laugh.

In Exiles HoM, the entire 616 reality was said to be unavailable. They couldn't access the reality. Not just the Earth.

In Thunderbolts, the Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar have all been affected by Wanda's reality shift. They're all best friends now. a Kree contingent with Ronan are there.

Otherworld was affected. The moon was affected. Dormammu's domain was affected.

Clearly the entire 616 reality was altered and multiple other realities were destroyed.

And yet Roma still describes the extent of Wandas manipulations as a "global alteration" Theres no escaping that and with no other on panel statement discrediting that or any other statement referring to the scale at all thats all the on panel proof we have. Your opinion to the contrary really isnt good enough.

Wanda brought about House of M to make everyone happy. Her friends and family and therefore obviously there friends and family and so on. All the races shown affected by House of M are tied to Earths history. Some of earths heroes belong to or are connected to said races. Who is to say Wanda just warped earth and all connected to its history that she could affect?

You have no conclusive evidence which discredits that scenario. That scenario is supported by a statement from Roma the omniversal guardian which directly refers to the scale of the warp. Without on panel statements to the contrary. You have nothing. Point dismissed.

Originally posted by demigawd
Multiversal devastation. The likes of which has never been seen and never been matched by any being.

Not the HOTU

Not the IG

Not the M'Kraan Crystal

and for damn sure not the Phoenix, whose feats are less than all of the above.

Ive been into previously why Phoenixes feats are greater than the likes of the IG and HOTU. Containing the multiversal power of the crystal is conclusively beyond anything the others have done.

Wandas feat is warping for definite earth 616 and possibly the universe.

You have not provided on panel statements which attribute the chaos wave to her. So you cannot treat your opinion on the matter as fact. Wait for her bio in a few months and see if youre supported there. Until then you have nothing. SHHHHHHH!!

Even if it was her power. It is not a multiversal feat. Its not her applying her power simultaneously across the universes of the multiverse. Its a spillover of her power through the hole she accidentally ripped in the brane through to other realities. Her actions in 616 possibly caused more destruction than we've yet witnessed but none of it is a direct result of Wandas power. She removed the keystone the structure came tumbling down. Moot point.


Originally posted by demigawd
Phoenix has no business being compared to the likes of Wanda. She's better off fighting Magneto imposters and Thor and whatnot, hahahaha.

Now if we're done here, let's go beat up on KMC Authority. I grow weary of this.

Really not good enough Demi. Youre welcome to come again, preferably with proof in hand.

Originally posted by demigawd
You know how it is, Mider. You can't name cosmic entities without GS storming in and inserting the usual Phoenix propaganda.

GS:Phoenix::Thanos:death

I merely mentioned Phoenix as it has a multiversal feat in its pertoire. A tru emultiversal feat. Youre the one who went on to turn this into a Phoenix thread out of spite

Originally posted by leonidas
the longer gs stays away from this thread, the longer his essay becomes . . .



interesting take on the omniverse/multiverse distinction. i'd always thought the 2 could be interchangeable in essence, and that sounds like what you're saying. but isn't there also supposed to be multiple multiverses that comprise the megaverse?? what do you see as the 'largest' entity, mega or omniverse?

If it gets too long, I'll just ignore it, since nobody is going to read it anyway - least of all me (fair warning, GS!!!).

Yes, we're saying the same thing, essentially. STRICTLY speaking, KillAll is quite correct, in that the omniverse should encompass all comicbook multiverses - DC, Marvel, Image, Devil's Due, etc. And technically speaking, it would even include....us, the people behind the fourth wall, and the writers, editors, the "real world".

The "megaverse" is usually used in the context of Marvel/DC crossovers. It's generally specifically two comic companies working together - the two sets of realities together are considered a "megaverse", or multi-multiverses, haha.

Practically speaking, Roma is really just responsible for the multiverse - everything Marvel-related. But, like I said, that's the second highest plane of jurisdiction in Marvel.

So, in summary:

Omniverse>megaverse>multiverse>universe>pocket universes/dimensions/realms/planes

Jesus Christ! Where did YOU come from?

It's like he presses a "go" button, and suddenly essay after essay loads...

I would imagine GS saves his previous essays and keeps using them over and over, of course with slight adjustments. It makes sense considering he's been arguing the same points since I would assume the time he registered here.

Wait a minute I agree w/ almost everything GS says!!!! But GS has to admit that a host w/ the PF is much much lower than PF itself and principally that PH DO NEEDS a host what will automatically low it's power level to a class lower than HOTU, IG.

Originally posted by demigawd
Got it. That was a gap in my knowledge there. Well done.

I think the whole purpose of these Great Powers is to help put the universe/multiverse/omniverse in working order. But with that comes the understanding that there are certain functions that they maintain and certain functions that they yield.

That means, essentially, that while Eternity could clearly beat Roma in a fight, by function, Roma has the jurisdiction to just...end Eternity if in her judgment she felt it was necessary to preserve the omniverse. And Eternity would have to accept that. That she is mortal or of the mortal plane doesn't matter in that context.

So Roma has the authority to destroy all the Cosmics and Abstracts in 616 universe, and was going to exercise that authority in an effort to defeat the source of the Chaos Wave (she never realized it was Wanda) - in that sense, it actually shows that Wanda is more dangerous than the Infinity Gauntlet or the Beyonder or Dark Phoenix, or possibly even HOTU.

Does that make more sense?



Well, when beings have "infinite" power, they all pretty much have the same basic attack - "Begone". AW has that power and Wanda has that power. So realistically, the only thing you have to go on is who exercised that power better, more completely and more unchallengably. From feats, I'd say Wanda has shown it.



It's a fair question. But Marvel doesn't define things by keeping other comicbook companies in mind. Historically, when the term "Omniversal Magistrix" was invented, a multiverse was defined as multiple dimensions of existence. So the 4th dimension is a "universe", Mephisto's realm is a "universe", the Beyonder's realm is a "universe", the microverse is a "universe", and all of those "universes" are part of the "multiverse", even though they're actually part of the same 616 Reality.

So when the term "Omniverse" was defined by Marvel, it was meant to include all of the multiverses in one.

We've since come to change some of the definitions signifnicantly. Mephisto's domain is now seen as a "dimension". The Beyonder's realm is now seen as a "pocket universe", and 4D and the Microverse are "planes of existence". The term "universe" is now interchangable with "reality", and that's what 616 and all its pocket universes and side dimensions and planes of existence is defined as - a single universe

In that sense, the "Omniverse" Roma watches over should more accurately be defined as "Multiverse" now, but the name stuck.

Either way, there are only two "courts" that have multiversal (transuniversal) jurisdiction - The Omniversal Magistrix (Roma, Opal) and The Living Tribunal. Everything else is responsible for its own universe.

In that sense, drawing the attention of the Omniversal Magistrix is more significant than getting a bunch of complaining Abstracts, as we saw in the Infinity Gauntlet. As LT said - the wielder of the IG replaces Eternity. He becomes the embodiment of that UNIVERSE. Presumably, anybody who can defeat Eternity (destroy a universe) can defeat the IG. That includes LT, the Infinites, Roma and SW.

That's another reason why I place SW higher up in the scale than the IG.
At this point I don't think it's a matter of how much power, but how it's used. So you say Wanda says, "Be gone, Adam Warlock." Before she's finished her thought, since he has the IG, he knows what she wants to do (just as he knew the result of his trial before it took place), travels back in time and assasinates Wanda before HOM. Or he uses the mind gem to make her say "Scarlet Witch" instead of "Adam Warlock." Or he speedblitzes her, rips her heart out and stuffs in in her mouth.

The thing is, just because Wanda has that power doesn't mean she knows how to use it most effectively. She doesn't think on the same level as Warlock and Thanos and Strange. In this fight, that would be her undoing.

Originally posted by demigawd

Meggan didn't stop the chaos wave, Meggan closed the breach through which the chaos wave was leaking. That's not the same as defeating Wanda's reality-controlling powers, or defeating Wanda, since Wanda didn't intentionally open the hole between realities in the first place. If Wanda knew what she did, she would give her blessings to fix it.

If Meggan stopped the chaos wave itself, it would have restored House of M.

Nope thats all based on the assumption that the Chaos wave was generated by Wanda. An assumption which isnt conclusively supported on panel.

Meggan jumped through the rift and she slowed down/stopped the chaos wave so that the rest of the mutants could seal the rift, ending the threat.

The mere action of closing the rift was all that was required to put an end to the threat of the chaos wave and to prevent the destruction of 616 from becoming necessary. So that in itself suggests either that it was a spillover of Wandas energies or that it was the rift being tore open in the first place.

Either way the destruction caused wasnt something maintained or performed by Wanda. Its not a feat, its something she set off, she wasnt directly responsible for it. It was for arguments sake merely a leakage.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, I wanted to add: if Phoenix were anywhere need as mighty and all-powerful as you thought, would she really need to allow herself to be killed and shattered to appear in the future? The wielder of the IG or HOTU could exist in all times at once, or simply skip into the future and come back into the past without anybody even knowing you were gone. Why would Phoenix have to go through such dramatic lengths just to show up a hundred years or so later? A bit much, don't you think?

No - Phoenix died because she was caught by Xorn and her mortal shell was destroyed. Therefore, the Phoenix Force can no longer manifest itself on the physical plane until it's pieced itself together, which didn't happen for 100+ years.

That's right - Xorn took the Phoenix Force out of the picture for over a century.

But you're right, this is off-topic.

The Phoenix Force didnt NEED to die to be reborn. Thats never been stated anywhere. It dies only to be reborn. The Phoenix allowed itself to die because it had other responsibilities elsewhere. Its as simple as that. Its existence in reality was no longer necessary until the Here comes tomorrow future 150 years later. However as we saw in issue 148 if Phoenix wishes to come back straight away she can. So bit of a moot point really

Cosmic Flame has a real good perception of the situation. It obligates me to agree.

Originally posted by demigawd


As for where Roma gets her authority - it's unspecified. I think it has something to do with a long line of omniversal guardians, like Merlin, etc. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force. In fact, it exists outside of the multiverse, so it's not even part of the Phoenix Force.

Rubbish!! Just wishful thinking. My birds involved with everything

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5315/excalibur050p188tm.th.jpg

Otherworld was created with the energy matrix Phoenix established around the multiverse.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
At this point I don't think it's a matter of how much power, but how it's used. So you say Wanda says, "Be gone, Adam Warlock." Before she's finished her thought, since he has the IG, he knows what she wants to do (just as he knew the result of his trial before it took place), travels back in time and assasinates Wanda before HOM. Or he uses the mind gem to make her say "Scarlet Witch" instead of "Adam Warlock." Or he speedblitzes her, rips her heart out and stuffs in in her mouth.

The thing is, just because Wanda has that power doesn't mean she knows how to use it most effectively. She doesn't think on the same level as Warlock and Thanos and Strange. In this fight, that would be her undoing.

But remember - Wanda instantaneously changed the entire Marvel Universe, and its history, AND was able to tap into Xavier's telepathy to give everybody what they want. It was in an instant...it wasn't a struggle.

I could see your point if it took Wanda a long time to do all of that, but it didn't. Likewise, when she said, "no more mutants"...that was it.

You don't really need to have a fine tuned understanding of what to do when you operate on her level of power. You sort of do when you have the IG, which is why it's more effective for some people than for others. Wanda literally makes anything she wants happen. So I don't think her intelligence vs. Warlock's intelligence is as much of a factor as you're making it out to be.

If she could instantly create as much detail as she did, she could instantly override Warlock.

GS - I'll deal with you later.

Originally posted by Diunic
Wait a minute I agree w/ almost everything GS says!!!! But GS has to admit that a host w/ the PF is much much lower than PF itself and principally that PH DO NEEDS a host what will automatically low it's power level to a class lower than HOTU, IG.

haha...well, if THAT'S your point of disagreement, then you don't agree with almost everything he says. *I* agree with GS in that the Phoenix Force is super important, but I don't think it carries over to the combat abilities of Jean or Rachel or any other host/avatar. And if you don't agree with that, then fundamentally, you don't agree with GS

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish!! Just wishful thinking. My birds involved with everything

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5315/excalibur050p188tm.th.jpg

Otherworld was created with the energy matrix Phoenix established around the multiverse.

Someone else already beat you to the point. Sorry. You missed your moment of glory by an hour or so.

Originally posted by demigawd
But remember - Wanda instantaneously changed the entire Marvel Universe, and its history, AND was able to tap into Xavier's telepathy to give everybody what they want. It was in an instant...it wasn't a struggle.

I could see your point if it took Wanda a long time to do all of that, but it didn't. Likewise, when she said, "no more mutants"...that was it.

You don't really need to have a fine tuned understanding of what to do when you operate on her level of power. You sort of do when you have the IG, which is why it's more effective for some people than for others. Wanda literally makes anything she wants happen. So I don't think her intelligence vs. Warlock's intelligence is as much of a factor as you're making it out to be.

If she could instantly create as much detail as she did, she could instantly override Warlock.

GS - I'll deal with you later.

Not at all. Emma Frost read Wandas mind and knew what she was going to do but of course couldnt act sufficiently in the short time she had (HOM 7)

If Warlock is omniscient he will be able to deal with Wanda prior to her applying her power.

On top of that alot of your argument is still based on assumptions concerning Wandas actual feats. Assumptions which arent verified on panel. I think theres gonna be alot of tears all around when Wandas bio comes out in a few months.

Originally posted by demigawd
Someone else already beat you to the point. Sorry. You missed your moment of glory by an hour or so.

muthaf*cka!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. Emma Frost read Wandas mind and knew what she was going to do but of course couldnt act sufficiently in the short time she had (HOM 7)

If Warlock is omniscient he will be able to deal with Wanda prior to her applying her power.

On top of that alot of your argument is still based on assumptions concerning Wandas actual feats. Assumptions which arent verified on panel. I think theres gonna be alot of tears all around when Wandas bio comes out in a few months.

Emma knew what she was going to do because Wanda was in mid-speech when she decided it. There's a pretty big difference between that and making the decision to obliterate someone and doing it - the time between which was an instant.

NOBODY saw what was coming when Wanda created HoM. Not Strange, not Emma...nobody.

Originally posted by demigawd
haha...well, if THAT'S your point of disagreement, then you don't agree with almost everything he says. *I* agree with GS in that the Phoenix Force is super important, but I don't think it carries over to the combat abilities of Jean or Rachel or any other host/avatar. And if you don't agree with that, then fundamentally, you don't agree with GS

Jean as stated in Classic X-men and even in the latest bio is literally a part of the Phoenix. She was created as a form through which Phoenix could act on the physical plane without detrimental effects on reality.

Jean has manipulated 616 in the palm of her hand and contained the crystal, how can you doubt her power?

Originally posted by demigawd
Emma knew what she was going to do because Wanda was in mid-speech when she decided it. There's a pretty big difference between that and making the decision to obliterate someone and doing it - the time between which was an instant.

NOBODY saw what was coming when Wanda created HoM. Not Strange, not Emma...nobody.

Adams omniscient so he would see it coming. Emma and DS are not. Moot.

I agree w/GS Cosmic Hierarchy, but I don't think that only because someone hosts the PF this person will be unbeatable or omnipotent. Only the WhiteCrown is