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setting is inside the death star
Round 1: Lightsabers
Round 2: Force/Amulets/Magic only
Round 3: Anything Goes

i think exar will pull through and win

1: Ulic's the only threat, and I find it hard to believe that three people can be entirely cohesive in attacking Kun. Kun will probably take it, since he only stalemated Ulic before he invented his double-bladed lightsaber and unique form.

2: Definitely in the bag for Kun. Revan and Malak cannot compare to him, and Ulic is never shown to have even learned Sith magic. Aleema Keto is probably his superior in that area.

3: Exar, given the above.

exactly what i was thinking

now i wanna see the revan fanboys come in

They are all in bed at this time.

I'm a Revan fanboy, but a smart one at that, even I know they're beaten here. Exar beats them, but it could be an interesting fight against all 3 in the Saber duel, but when it comes to the force round, Exar takes them all down. There isn't even a round 3.

im goin to bed man its like 12 AM

It would be an interesting fight, Kun won't run away with it, but he'd likely win.

Yeah, the presense of Ulic is what makes it tenuous. However, it's only that way in the lightsaber fight. It's more definite that he'd take them once the Force/Sith Magic comes into the equation.

I'm just waiting for KOTOR III to make the case for Revan even more subjective and hyperbolic.

Yea me too

Originally posted by Wesker
I'm just waiting for KOTOR III to make the case for Revan even more subjective and hyperbolic.

Indeed. "Revan lives in the force!" zOMG, Revan avatar!

How the hell could he win a lightsaber duel? Ulic is a lightsaber prodigy of great skill so is Revan so is Malak, perhaps none of them can match him in a 1 on 1 situation, but 3 against 1? No way in hell Exar is going to walk away from that, even if they would go one by one, then Ulic would still hurt him, Malak would practically finish him off, and after that if he still lives Revan would take him down.

Exar is good and all, but god people this is just ridiculous, Exar isn't god. He couldn't just beat anybody. He's fighting 3 people of great skill... He isn't that good.

Yes he is, Fishy. It'll be difficult to downright impossible for all three to attack him at once in a lightsaber battle. Qel-Droma was only good enough to stalemate his single-blade form, what do you think is going to happen when Exar activates the 2nd one and shows off the improvements he's made by The Sith War?

You'll probably have a dead Qel-Droma, because there's nothing to indicate that he improved by the time of The Sith War.

Revan and Malak will just be an afterthought. They cannot compare. Ulic is the only one that can come close.

OMG EXAR FANBOYISM.

This is ridiculous, three competent jedi/sith against one competent Sith. Exar will activate the second saber, so what? He would still get WTFpwned by Ulic and Revan. Adding Malak in there is just plain overkill. I don't believe this.

Originally posted by zephiel7
OMG EXAR FANBOYISM.

This is ridiculous, three competent jedi/sith against one competent Sith. Exar will activate the second saber, so what? He would still get WTFpwned by Ulic and Revan. Adding Malak in there is just plain overkill. I don't believe this.

Maybe in the saber fighting, but when it comes down to force powers, they're all screwed, especially Ulic, since he doesn't have any anymore ;p

Yea fishy too much Kun fanboyism. If the 3 could coexist as a cohesive unit, Kun doesn't stand the chance in a lightsaber duel. But in terms of force powers, Kun has his trusty Naga Sadow Amulet so they're screwed.

Kun tools them. He could blast Ulic, implode Revan's head and then choke Malak to death.

Originally posted by zephiel7
OMG EXAR FANBOYISM.

This is ridiculous, three competent jedi/sith against one competent Sith. Exar will activate the second saber, so what? He would still get WTFpwned by Ulic and Revan. Adding Malak in there is just plain overkill. I don't believe this.

It's more like two competant Sith wannabes and a really good sith versus one of the most powerful Sith of all time.

So, zephiel. How are they going to mob him? That's a lot of blades swinging around.

Unless he's yoda it's going to be tough hopping around all of those sabers..

Apparently you didn't understand the question:

How the hell are they going to mob him?

Apparently people think you can just swing glowsticks together and not hurt each other.

Unfortunately, having to mesh together is not only hard, but changes one's approach to battle:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1252/anakinobiavatar6kw9jj.gif

Notice how few attacks they got in? How Obi-Wan had to go offensive? It's not a nice situation.

Indeed. If anything, Exar has the greatest advantage here. At least he doesn't have to worry about tripping over two partners.

So your saying one guy has a better chance of success in fight over a mob of guys. Sorry I don’t buy that.

Revan could defeat Exar. Ulic tied him in combat. Malak might not be able to defeat him, BUT he could berate him with force powers and divert his concentration. I mean come on with the three of these powers Exar would be toast in lightsaber combat.

Second you’re downplaying Revan, as ridiculous as that is. You are in love with the comic series involving Ulic and Exar Kun, and state without any proof of Ulic’s superiority to Revan. Ulic tied Kun with one saber, and Revan could also tie Kun in saber combat. Precognition helps you know.

This is about to get good once IKC sees this

Originally posted by zephiel7
So your saying one guy has a better chance of success in fight over a mob of guys. Sorry I don’t buy that.

Revan could defeat Exar. Ulic tied him in combat. Malak might not be able to defeat him, BUT he could berate him with force powers and divert his concentration. I mean come on with the three of these powers Exar would be toast in lightsaber combat.

Second you’re downplaying Revan, as ridiculous as that is. You are in love with the comic series involving Ulic and Exar Kun, and state without any proof of Ulic’s superiority to Revan. Ulic tied Kun with one saber, and Revan could also tie Kun in saber combat. Precognition helps you know.

Apparently you didn't watch the clip. It's not as simple as 1+1. It's not like having 2 people attacking is twice as effective as having one guy attack, that's the whole point. It's called Diminishing Marginal Utility. Just because you pile more guys on, doesn't mean they will continue to increase at a linear rate, understand?

Also, Revan can beat Exar? Comparing eras is difficult to do, particularly if you're going against conventional wisdom without any proof.

Also, considering Revan's era was considerably less stable and weaker than Kun's, where's your evidence that Revan could even beat Vodo?

Much appreciated, Illustrious. To address the various miscellaneous points...



Perhaps you should read the top post. First battle is no Force. You definitely don't want the Force allowed, because it's the only chance for your precious KOTOR characters to come out on top.

Once the Force is allowed, Exar can merely blow them all away.

Even without the Force allowed, he walks away just fine with the win more often than not.



I like how you think Revan is the only Jedi ever to use precognition despite the fact that it's canonically shown that an untrained Anakin Skywalker can use it. Point is moot, Exar can see the near future too.

How are the Jedi going to get in each others way in force powers?

It wouldn't matter then, Glentract. Kun would curbstomp them.

They will get in each other's way in lightsaber combat.

I'm not saying they won't lose, I just think it won't be nearly as easy for Kun as you say. Ulic alone would give him a hard time and Malak, the far weaker one between him and Revan, was able to pwn two Masters with the force in seconds.

Oh please. I have a single move for you that'll guarantee Kun wins without even trying.

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

They're screwed. Ulic was never shown to have even learned Sith magic, and all of Revan and Malak's feats must be taken into context with the fact that their era was, on the whole, weaker than Kun's.

My lord IKC no offense but you are THE Exar Kun fanboy.

My Lord tdtd, no offense but you ARE a troll who comes out and offers endless one-liners about how pathetic we all are for ridiculous, hypocritical reason X, Y, or Z, ignoring that quite a lot of your time is spent trolling a Star Wars versus forum and that you've repeatedly debated out of ignorance and ignored logic and evidence.

Illustrious, Revan defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge. The Star Forge was feeding off the Rakatans hatred for who knows how many years. The star forge was stated to be before even Kuns time. Face it: Revan and Malak learned a lot from the tomb's of the ancient Sith Lords, and also from Malachore 5. From these premises, Revan and Malak must have had considerable mastery of the force in order to control such an ancient and powerful device. The fact that Revan defeated Malak, infused by the Star Forge's power, a weapon that fed of the hatred and force of several Rakatan's is saying a lot. Let me give you a summary.

The Rakatans were a race ancient even in the Revan/Exar time. They built the Star Forge, a weapon that feed's on the force and uses it to build a massive fleet, as well strengthen the user powerful enough to control it. The Star Forge fed on the force of the Rakatan, and that's why they have been void of the force for centuries. The Rakatans themselves were strong in the force, heck their technology revolved around it.

The fact that Malak could control such a power, let alone be empowered by it speaks VOLUMES for himself and Revan. Malak was empowered by the force of an entire race and its technology, and was still WTFpwned by Revan. If Revan could pull of such a feat, he is obviously powerful in the force, stronger than Vodo could ever be.

Now about, Vodo. He empowered his staff to withstand lightsabers. Yea. Thats it.

If that's enough for him to beat Revan I can't believe it. Why didn't Exar empower a staff to withstand lightsaber's. BECAUSE IT WAS UNNESSCESSARY. Same goes with Revan .

Okay?

And Kun shredded a Sith Wyrm of Naga Sadow's, kicked the crap out of Vodo, and instakilled a thousand year old Jedi.

Your point? Throwing feats around won't get your point across, you have to put them in context. How powerful was Malak? How powerful was the Star Forge? Why should we have any reason to submit to your opinion if you won't provide us with the goods?



And what exactly did they learn? And where's the canonical evidence they put said learning to use on anywhere near the scale Exar did?



They were the only considerable sith of the era who tried. Are you going to tell me that because they tried, but people like Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Nadd didn't, that they are ranked higher than them because of said feat?



And the Rakatan's had degenerated considerably, they were no longer a galactic threat, their ability to use the force diminished, and they weren't exactly any godlike Rakatans running around.



The Jedi technology (such as a lightsaber) relies on use of the force. Sith technology relies on use of the force. Hell, even remnant technology had several objects that used the force. That alone is not saying much.

To recap, you need to provide evidence, put it in context, and compare it to provide your case. Simply stating that "Revan beat Malak" doesn't mean anything. Sidious beat Yoda, does that mean Sidious is the greatest? No, because there is no context, no comparison, and we don't know the circumstances.

The same is true for Revan.



And Ragnos' spirit was empowered by the force of dozens of planets and locations, and he still was beaten by Jaden. Why? Well circumstances. First off, possessing an already beaten Tavion is extremely limiting, secondly, we have no way of guaging how powerful the boost really was, so arguing it in a debate is fruitless speculation.

Kun's spirit was in a nexus of dark side energy, and he was defeated by Luke? How? Again, circumstances. Luke had over a dozen padawans at his aid, and he still barely had the ability to fight off Kun's 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles.

It's easy to distort facts, give me the damn context. So what if Revan beat Malak? How about Exar beating the de facto leader of a more powerful Jedi Order while simultaneously freezing thousands of sentients in the senate? How about Exar waving his hand and tossing other jedi like ragdolls? How about Exar destroying Freedon Nadd's spirit, who still had the ability to cause avalanches, make roofs collapse, attack people mentally, and floor Vodo?

Again, show me how this offers Revan the win?



Oh yeah, feat wars.

First off, Revan didn't "WTFpwn" Malak. The duel was described as "epic," you don't even know the circumstances. It's more likely than not that Revan squeaked away the victory than walked in there and beat him up.

Secondly, because Vodo isn't shown as walking into the Star Forge and beating up someone empowered by it means Revan's stronger than he ever will be? That's twisted logic. You haven't even established or quantified how much stronger the Star Forge makes someone. By that logic, because Revan or Malak never made a staff more powerful (yes, it said those exact words, don't argue) than a lightsaber, they'll never be as strong as Vodo.

Again, feat wars are pointless.



So being described as powerful and revered by the omniscient narrator (which means minimal hyperbole and distortion) isn't powerful? Or being the de facto leader of a more martial Jedi Order prior to the destruction of its stores on Ossus means he isn't powerful?

Being more powerful and revered than a Jedi who can literally root himself to the earth and feed off its energy, a Jedi who can cast battle meditation at will and strip people of the force, jedis who can trap other force users in a "wall of light" isn't enough?

Damn, I guess Marka Ragnos must suck, because all we ever see him do is cast illusions and possess bodies.

There's no logic behind those feats you offered.

IllustriaPwnt.

zephiel7, although you make a great argument with Malak still losing to Revan even when Malak was empowered by SF, you have to remember that it was using a lot of power to build ships. Now, if Revan had defeated a Malak who had the power of the entire Rakata people behind him, then he would be up there with DE Sidious, who was able to destroy capital ships with the force(something Exar would probably be able to do, but I don't remember him ever actually showing power on that scale). Not that Revan would necessarily be better then Sidious since there were probably only a few thousand Rakata left, where Sidious drained the power of 6 billion people.

Your point? Throwing feats around won't get your point across, you have to put them in context. How powerful was Malak? How powerful was the Star Forge? Why should we have any reason to submit to your opinion if you won't provide us with the goods?

Malak and Revan were undisputedly THE strongest Jedi/Sith of their time. How much greater their power was with respect to the council is inconclusive, but we know they were WTFPWNING the Jedi council and the Republic after they returned as Dark Lords. Just how much of and outlier I can’t say with 100% accuracy however I can come to a logical conclusion based on the evidence presented below:

The Rakatans were a race ancient even by Vodo’s standards. Milennia before Revan/Exar they ruled the galaxy and possessed a powerful control over the force. They were so powerful in the force that heck, they built their entire civilization from it. They enslaved all the lesser races, they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, although that would be inconclusive. Nonetheless they were able to rule the galaxy UNTIL the Star Forge WTF sucked every single iota of force/midocholorian out of them and their technology. The fact that Malak could control such a device, so fully amplified by the force, speaks VOLUMES for him. The fact that Revan could defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith, amplified by a power ancient beyond even Kun’s knowledge, heck maybe even Ragnos’ speaks even MORE for him

They were the only considerable sith of the era who tried. Are you going to tell me that because they tried, but people like Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Nadd didn't, that they are ranked higher than them because of said feat?

What Malak accomplished though was due to his knowledge in the force. I am giving it as an example of how powerful Malak has become, and how he could match up with people in the above list. Same with Revan because he defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge.

And the Rakatan's had degenerated considerably, they were no longer a galactic threat, their ability to use the force diminished, and they weren't exactly any godlike Rakatans running around.

They were still godly at the point the Star Forge sucked the force out of them. That has been proven in game. Their entire civilization, their power was lost because the Star Forge sucked them of the force.

The Jedi technology (such as a lightsaber) relies on use of the force. Sith technology relies on use of the force. Hell, even remnant technology had several objects that used the force. That alone is not saying much.

None of the afore mentioned examples relied on the force so completely as the Rakatan’s did. EVERYTHING the Rakatan’s had relied on the force. That was why they fell so utterly.

To recap, you need to provide evidence, put it in context, and compare it to provide your case. Simply stating that "Revan beat Malak" doesn't mean anything. Sidious beat Yoda, does that mean Sidious is the greatest? No, because there is no context, no comparison, and we don't know the circumstances.


The Rakatans were old even by Vodo’s standards. Vodo empowered his staff with the force. The Rakatan’s empowered ALL their technology with the force. According to you, if Vodo’s accomplishments were big, then what the RAKATANS did was godly. Malak could control the force of this entire race.

And Ragnos' spirit was empowered by the force of dozens of planets and locations, and he still was beaten by Jaden. Why? Well circumstances. First off, possessing an already beaten Tavion is extremely limiting, secondly, we have no way of guaging how powerful the boost really was, so arguing it in a debate is fruitless speculation.

Kun's spirit was in a nexus of dark side energy, and he was defeated by Luke? How? Again, circumstances. Luke had over a dozen padawans at his aid, and he still barely had the ability to fight off Kun's 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles.

It's easy to distort facts, give me the damn context. So what if Revan beat Malak? How about Exar beating the de facto leader of a more powerful Jedi Order while simultaneously freezing thousands of sentients in the senate? How about Exar waving his hand and tossing other jedi like ragdolls? How about Exar destroying Freedon Nadd's spirit, who still had the ability to cause avalanches, make roofs collapse, attack people mentally, and floor Vodo?

Your two examples are of already weakened Sith Lords. You know how WTF weak sith spirits get over time. If Ragnos had the power of all those planets, then he would of WTF OMG ROFLMAO pwned Jaden Korr. Kun would have beat Luke.

Kun was using an offshoot of force wave. We’ve seen Vrook do it to the Exile. We have seen Kreia doing it simultaneously on three Jedi masters at once. Freedon Nadd was still a spirit. We have seen Revan defeat Ajunta Pall. The freezing the senate is impressive, but you must remember that they were not all force sensitives. Heck a good thousand of them may have just been craven weaklings.

First off, Revan didn't "WTFpwn" Malak. The duel was described as "epic," you don't even know the circumstances. It's more likely than not that Revan squeaked away the victory than walked in there and beat him up.

Ok, hyperbole sorry. The difficulty of the battle is inconclusive.

Secondly, because Vodo isn't shown as walking into the Star Forge and beating up someone empowered by it means Revan's stronger than he ever will be? That's twisted logic. You haven't even established or quantified how much stronger the Star Forge makes someone. By that logic, because Revan or Malak never made a staff more powerful (yes, it said those exact words, don't argue) than a lightsaber, they'll never be as strong as Vodo.

Malak, controlled the star forged empowered by a race that did more than just make lightsaber’s stronger than staves. The star forge was powered by an entire race who empowered their entire technology with the force.

So being described as powerful and revered by the omniscient narrator (which means minimal hyperbole and distortion) isn't powerful? Or being the de facto leader of a more martial Jedi Order prior to the destruction of its stores on Ossus means he isn't powerful?

Like I said, Revan was the strongest Jedi of the time. He was revered by the Jedi council as the best of the students at the time. During his fall, the council feared him like none other. Kreia called him “the heart of the force,” Kreia who was old enough to have been around during Kun. The narrators in this case treat him as a force god. That shows just how much of an outlier he was.

Being more powerful and revered than a Jedi who can literally root himself to the earth and feed off its energy, a Jedi who can cast battle meditation at will and strip people of the force, jedis who can trap other force users in a "wall of light" isn't enough?

Damn, I guess Marka Ragnos must suck, because all we ever see him do is cast illusions and possess bodies.


Bastila can cast battle meditation on thousands. Bastila is definately not stronger than Revan. Kreia consumed the force from three Jedi masters at once.

Marka Ragnos was revered by Naga Sadow and Ludo Kresh though, two people who could arguably tool any Jedi/Sith since. That speaks volumes.

zephiel is about to be killed by illustrious

Originally posted by zephiel7
Malak and Revan were undisputedly THE strongest Jedi/Sith of their time. How much greater their power was with respect to the council is inconclusive, but we know they were WTFPWNING the Jedi council and the Republic after they returned as Dark Lords. Just how much of and outlier I can’t say with 100% accuracy however I can come to a logical conclusion based on the evidence presented below:

Ok they were the strongest IN A WEAKER ERA, Exar was the strongest in a stronger era. And they personally were WTFpwning the jedi and the republic? Wow, and here I thought they had an entire army and the republic just finished fighting a major war.

The Rakatans were a race ancient even by Vodo’s standards. Milennia before Revan/Exar they ruled the galaxy and possessed a powerful control over the force. They were so powerful in the force that heck, they built their entire civilization from it. They enslaved all the lesser races, they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, although that would be inconclusive. Nonetheless they were able to rule the galaxy UNTIL the Star Forge WTF sucked every single iota of force/midocholorian out of them and their technology. The fact that Malak could control such a device, so fully amplified by the force, speaks VOLUMES for him. The fact that Revan could defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith, amplified by a power ancient beyond even Kun’s knowledge, heck maybe even Ragnos’ speaks even MORE for him

Ok how much power did the SF give Malak?
How much power did it take to control the SF?

As for them enslaving all lesser races, you do know that they only had around 500 planet right? As for your statement that they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, either back it up or do not say it.

As for Revan being able to beat Malak while empowered by the SF, unless you think that Exar or Ragnos could not have done this, it does not really apply

What Malak accomplished though was due to his knowledge in the force. I am giving it as an example of how powerful Malak has become, and how he could match up with people in the above list. Same with Revan because he defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge.


Read above, Exar could have done that as well

They were still godly at the point the Star Forge sucked the force out of them. That has been proven in game. Their entire civilization, their power was lost because the Star Forge sucked them of the force.

And because of a disease that only killed Rakatan

None of the afore mentioned examples relied on the force so completely as the Rakatan’s did. EVERYTHING the Rakatan’s had relied on the force. That was why they fell so utterly.


Alright, not sure how this relates, moving on

The Rakatans were old even by Vodo’s standards. Vodo empowered his staff with the force. The Rakatan’s empowered ALL their technology with the force. According to you, if Vodo’s accomplishments were big, then what the RAKATANS did was godly. Malak could control the force of this entire race.

Wait a sec here, control the force of the entire race? That is an assumption and a half buddy. Provide proof for this, not hyperbole. W know that the SF required the force to use and over time the use drained the Rakatan, however unless you argue that Malak > than any and all Rakatans that ever lived that is simply not true

Your two examples are of already weakened Sith Lords. You know how WTF weak sith spirits get over time. If Ragnos had the power of all those planets, then he would of WTF OMG ROFLMAO pwned Jaden Korr. Kun would have beat Luke.

Kun was using an offshoot of force wave. We’ve seen Vrook do it to the Exile. We have seen Kreia doing it simultaneously on three Jedi masters at once. Freedon Nadd was still a spirit. We have seen Revan defeat Ajunta Pall. The freezing the senate is impressive, but you must remember that they were not all force sensitives. Heck a good thousand of them may have just been craven weaklings.

We saw Revan defeat Ajunta? That is in game and might not have happened in canon. Actually if I remember correctly a few weeks ago you were arguing Revan was LS, meaning he would have converted Ajnuta back to the light, not killed him. Also, even if Revan did beat Ajunta, he could have easily had two other jedi with him, also this is again a weak spirit form of him. Like you said, sith spirits get weaker over time.

As for 1000 of the senate being weaklings, sure possible, but Exar could still freeze them and all bodyguards in place as he slaughtered the Chancellor, then some jedi, Revan couldn't even detect that he was about to be shot while facing 3 jedi, which incidently does not speak well for his pre-cog

Ok, hyperbole sorry. The difficulty of the battle is inconclusive.

Then do not pass it off as conclusive evidence for your side

Malak, controlled the star forged empowered by a race that did more than just make lightsaber’s stronger than staves. The star forge was powered by an entire race who empowered their entire technology with the force.

Read above, Malak was not greater than an entire race

Like I said, Revan was the strongest Jedi of the time. He was revered by the Jedi council as the best of the students at the time. During his fall, the council feared him like none other. Kreia called him “the heart of the force,” Kreia who was old enough to have been around during Kun. The narrators in this case treat him as a force god. That shows just how much of an outlier he was.

Kreia is prone to hyperbole, also Kreia said that the Exile was the strongest she even trained, want to argue that Exile > Exar?

Also, since when was Kreia a narrator?

Ok they were the strongest IN A WEAKER ERA, Exar was the strongest in a stronger era. And they personally were WTFpwning the jedi and the republic? Wow, and here I thought they had an entire army and the republic just finished fighting a major war.

Um, how do we know that the Exar guys were stronger then the KOTOR guys? I mean, the Jedi hadn't faced a Sith threat in hundreds of years before Exar's time, where Revan began his training about the same time that Exar died. It would seem like the Jedi would try to bulk up their forces after the near catastrophe Exar caused.

Glentract and Zephaniel make excellent points.. Btw you're not proving anything when you say "Well Kun could have done this and this and this too".

As for 1000 of the senate being weaklings, sure possible, but Exar could still freeze them and all bodyguards in place as he slaughtered the Chancellor, then some jedi,

Just another tidbit.

Even if Exar froze 15,000 people, it still isn't that impressive of a feat next to Joruus C'baoth, who was able to take control of at least 37,000 people. I say at least because as I was re-reading the Thrawn books today, there was indication that he was controlling several of the Chimera's support ships too.

Yea I read all the Thrawn books and he was indeed controlling the Chimera. From the books he seemed very powerful.

Controlling someone would indicate he was forcing them to do things against their will. That is not the case. Battle meditation is not control.

IKC have you read the Thrawn Trilogy? C'Baoth was controlling the ships and at points controlling the entire crew.

Yes, I've read the Thrawn trilogy. Was he forcing them to do things against their will? No.

And let's not underestimate the Senate membership. For all we know, it's in the millions, especially when you consider evidence from the PT that even non-member-world entities like the Trade Federation had delegates.

IKC, he did use battle meditation on tens of thousands of people, but I am talking about when he litteraly took control of all 37,000 people on the Chimera. He took over their minds so forcefully that many of them had to go to the miedcal area.

Yea Glentract that's exactly what I'm talking about.

tdtd, you need to not straddle the fence and troll so damn much. It's annoying.

Ok my love I'll take your opinion into consideration

Damn, no need for public affection. Wouldn't want rumors to spread.

TDTD LIKES WESKER

AHHH!!!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, he did use battle meditation on tens of thousands of people, but I am talking about when he litteraly took control of all 37,000 people on the Chimera. He took over their minds so forcefully that many of them had to go to the miedcal area.

And Kun outdoes him by taking control of and freezing a Senate of more beings, most of whom are aliens whose minds work differently.

Actually, the narration describes it as the Senate being "forced to watch and not react." That's control, right there.

As I said, the Senate potentially has millions of members. Joruus' feat is of a smaller scale.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
IKC, he did use battle meditation on tens of thousands of people, but I am talking about when he litteraly took control of all 37,000 people on the Chimera. He took over their minds so forcefully that many of them had to go to the miedcal area.

And Kun outdoes him by taking control of and freezing a Senate of more beings, most of whom are aliens whose minds work differently.

Actually, the narration describes it as the Senate being "f

Originally posted by IKC
And Kun outdoes him by taking control of and freezing a Senate of more beings, most of whom are aliens whose minds work differently.

Actually, the narration describes it as the Senate being "forced to watch and not react." That's control, right there.

As I said, the Senate potentially has millions of members. Joruus' feat is of a smaller scale.

Joruus controlled the 37,000 people on the Chimera, but there were the many support ships. The number of people he was controlling is actually far more then 37,000, we just don't know the exact number, so 37,000 is a good lower limit. And making someone watch something is a lot easier then planning to control people for at minimum five days(the transit time from where they were to Coruscant, which he wanted to attack). It was only when he realized that he was going to have to control all of those minds for all of that time that he changed his mind.

Glentract - "Oh shit, I'm losing at my favorite subject - feat wars! I'd better pull something new out of my ass!"



Just like we don't know the exact number for Kun's. I'll leave it at one million for a "good lower limit."



Oh, it's a lot easier why? Because you said so?

Wrong, hyperspace transit time, even across the galaxy, is invariably same-day. See Mr. Wong. That stuff's retconned.



What? So he didn't actually do it? Then what the **** are you talking about?

It doesn't matter, Kun still outperformed him.

IKC you haven't proven that Kun outperformed him you're just being biased towards your favorite character. Your "Kun is the best the end" mentality is getting a little ridiculous. You've made excellent points in other threads to shut me up but lately it's been nothing but fanboyism. I'm sure we can ASSUME that there were millions of beings in the senate but as it is shown in the comic book and the Thrawn Trilogy, C'Baoth's accomplishment seems a lot greater on paper.

tdtd, your "I'm going to troll the Star Wars versus forum despite not knowing shit" mentality is getting a little ridiculous.

How the **** is Joruus' "achievement" better? Kun did the same thing on a much more massive scale.

On paper controlling the entire crew and its ships is more impressive than freezing a senate chamber. And I can "troll" around to gain information, that's my right, you're just being an old fashioned fanboy.

Uh, on-panel controlling the entire senate of millions of members by "forc(ing) them to watch and not react" is the same feat on a much greater scale. Apparently you need to learn how to read.

Yes because speculation really proves your case fanboy.

It isn't speculation, troll. It's logical deduction that the Senate has at least one million members, especially given that non-member entities like the Trade Federation have delegates.

When someone else agrees with your fanboyism then I'll shut up. We all get that Kun is your hero.

Actually, I think IKC makes an excellent case.

Your appeal to majorty just got shot down, troll.

Actually I think its lacking.

Ulic is pretty good, Revan is, so is Malak. Of course the three won't fight together well, but Revan and Malak would. Ulic of course would not but he could work together at the very basic. Malak and Revan attack Ulic stops Exar if he beats them back.

Revan and Malak are both lightsaber prodigy's and great fighters, Exar his greatest power is the force and he could beat them all with force powers, but he doesn't stand a chance in hell with a lightsaber.

And the million planets thing? We allow assumptions now?

Fishy, I thought you were gone from this board?

And Revan and Malak may have been good for their time, but they are nowhere near Kun's level. They invent a unique lightsaber form lately?

Don't think so. They cannot operate with collusion, Ulic is the only one anywhere near to representing a threat.

Originally posted by IKC
Fishy, I thought you were gone from this board?

And Revan and Malak may have been good for their time, but they are nowhere near Kun's level. They invent a unique lightsaber form lately?

Don't think so. They cannot operate with collusion, Ulic is the only one anywhere near to representing a threat.

Yeah but I was bored.

Lightsaber form? Feat wars now IKC? Nice...

And Ulic greater then Revan, thats just bullshit...

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually I think its lacking.

Ulic is pretty good, Revan is, so is Malak. Of course the three won't fight together well, but Revan and Malak would.

Actually, this is an assumption, like you bitched about below. We have exactly NO idea how well they fight together, or if they ever fought together.



Actually, I've already shown and Illustrious has explored upon the fact that three people with deadly glowsticks mesh horribly and can't fight as well as they normally do, nor even in the same manner. Ergo, it's against them to have more numbers.

Secondly, Anakin and Mace are "lightsaber prodigies". Can they beat Kun too?



Actually, that's as good a number as I can imagine. There are over a million member systems and over fifty million colonies and such within the Republic by the PT era. Even if I were to be mean and cut that into a fraction, it'd still be considerable. And systems need representatives. 1 million is a good low number.

Actually, his lightsaber form pertains directly to this fight. I could merely say that you're using feat wars by declaring Revan and Malak to be prodigies despite lack of evidence.

Yeah. Ulic is greater than Revan. I know it hurts your barely-hidden KOTOR fanboyism, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Originally posted by IKC
Actually, his lightsaber form pertains directly to this fight. I could merely say that you're using feat wars by declaring Revan and Malak to be prodigies despite lack of evidence.

Yeah. Ulic is greater than Revan. I know it hurts your barely-hidden KOTOR fanboyism, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Lack of evidence? Malak and Revan were the greatest fighters during their time... What has Ulic ever done to match anything Revan has done?

and of course his lightsaber form is important, but you arguing that Kun is better then three lightsaber masters because he has created his own form. So has Mace he isn't better then those guys.

and don't accuse me of fanboyism when you so clearly state that every TOTJ character is superior without evidence, show me prove of how great Ulic is and I might reconsider.

We don't know that Revan and Malak were the greatest fighters of their time, that's your assumption.

And I'm arguing that Kun's form is so wildly dominant that he will come out on top of this fight, especially because the three cannot fight to their fullest and the best of them only managed to stalemate a weaker Kun in a pure lightsaber fight.

And TOTJ characters are superior. After all, Marka Ragnos is one of them.

How about you show me evidence that Revan is better than Ulic despite the fact that Ulic was a prodigy as well. Indeed, Ulic was so good that he was able to out-duel a pissed-off Jedi while blind to the Force.

And Revan was able to kill god knows how many guards that captured a wookie destroy a base filled with his enemy's, fight his way through a Sith base, kill a Sith apprentice fight his way through Davik his base, win a swoop race when he raced the thing for the first time, defeat people in a fight after winning granted with help... defeat Davik and Calo Nord the second of which is the greatest bounty hunter in that sector of the galaxy. Without the force. But thats all just whats confirmed,

He possibly killed a Mandelorian Champion in the Taris dueling ring without the force and became the Taris dueling champion, fought his way through two bases of underground bastards instead of 1. Kill 2 to 5 people as a bounty hunter.

And I know he had help, but just look at the help. A republic pilot that was used to piloting according to his friends he hardly spend any time on the ground.. And he wasn't really trained with weapons either. He later on got help from a wookie and a Twi'lek, he had to use mission half of the time at least until after the Vulkar base. Storywise at least, so he had a pilot or a wookie and a 14 year old girl to help him.. Real impressive. He later on had Canderous his help in Davik his base and thats the only time the help was actually good.

So Ulic was able to fight without the force, so was Revan.

You cannot argue with a fanboy.. This has been proven with Lightsnake and now IKC

You cannot argue with an idiot. That has been proved by tdtd.

Ah yet another unintelligent insignificant nerd with too much time on her hands.

Ah, yet another unintelligent, idiotic and moronic eight year old with too much time on his hands.

That's so cute pumpkin, you have to repeat what I basically said to you. Keep it up my love Mwa

Oh, that's so insulting.

Anything for you my love

This is pointless, fanboy. Come up with a decent argument, or shut up.

Ah now I'm a fanboy? That's so cute..
1. Think
2. Type
3. Repeat

Okay then.

This is pointless, eight year old boy. Come up with a decent argument, or shut up.

Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission's help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission's help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission's help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission's help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?

Get the point yet?



Untrained anakin won a pod race without ever having finished one in TPM. Is he an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission/Zaalbar/Bastila's help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.

He could merely have snuck by them, and he had Carth/Mission/Zaalbar/Bastila/Canderous' help. Hell, you can play the game and just do all that with Carth. Is Carth an uber god?



Gameplay is not canon.



Gameplay is not canon.



Gameplay is not canon.

Oh please. Don't diminish his companions. By that logic, all ANH Luke had to help him was a whiny aristocrat, a smuggler who "hardly spent his time on the ground," a wookie, and two droids. "Just look at the help!"

Pfft. And you forgot Bastila and T3.



Gameplay is not canon.

Except Ulic was able to beat a jedi alone in lightsaber combat without any use of or sensitivity to the Force.

Every single part of your nonsensical, fanboy-flavored post was non-canon bullshit. You are a KOTOR fanboy, accept it and move on. Revan did almost none of that, save for winning the swoop race, canonically. QED.

I don't need an argument now that've entered the debate, I'll just watch you make yourself look stupid making ridiculous statements such as "Fanboy" or "uninformed speculation" without merit. Why don't you learn the definitions of the things you type then come back.

Originally posted by tdtd
I don't need an argument now that've entered the debate, I'll just watch you make yourself look stupid making ridiculous statements such as "Fanboy" or "uninformed speculation" without merit. Why don't you learn the definitions of the things you type then come back.

Ohh! Burn oh wait, that was a stupid statement.

Originally posted by Fishy
And Revan was able to kill god knows how many guards that captured a wookie destroy a base filled with his enemy's,

God may know, but does Fishy? Prove up. They were Gamorreans anyways. ROTJ Luke could simply push them aside.



Or he could have snuck through, possibly. The point is we don't know the circumstances surrounding the event canonically, and an excess of baddies is a game mechanic, not The Truth. Therefore assuming that Revan had to beat all those people and is thus uber is as ridiculous as saying ESB Luke is God because he can fight infinite stormtroopers in the game.



He killed a Sith who didn't even have a lightsaber (with friends). Same deal with Bandon. We don't know how good he is from such accomplishments because they are not elaborated upon and substantiated outside of gameplay.



So did TPM Annie. zOMG teh furce g0d!!!111



More unsubstantiated feat wars...



Feat wars. None substantiated, none canonically shown to be true. Since the assertion that those did happen and therefore affect how powereful he is unproven, your case falls apart.



All of those are validNone of those help Revan's case any. Also, Revan was ignorant of the force while brainwiped and on Taris, but he was not cut off like Ulic was. Subconsciously, one can still use the force and not know of it, such as TPM Annie.

Actually if you would use your brain, which i'm sure you can... You would know thats absolute bullshit and you didn't read my post.

Revan could not have snuck past the guards in Davik his palace, he couldn't have snuck by the Sith apprentice in the Taris Sith base, and he was seen when entering the Sith base there.. Snuck by all of that too? Bullshit, he had to have fought there.

And actually i'm not even going to reply to your post its stupid, storywise Carth would never have had the ability to do anything like that, and you clearly either haven't played Kotor in a very long damn time or you are just trying to downplay everything done in the game. Grow up.

As I've said before, the team making KOTOR III has stated that part 3 would end the debate of Revan once and for all, right now it's inconclusive.

Storywise Carth couldn't do it? Bullshit. In-game I could make Carth the most powerful member of my party and have him pwn the shit out of everybody else.

GAMEPLAY IS NOT CANON, FISHY. YOU ARE A FANBOY.

I'm sure everyone's stated this already but i'm not going to waste my time finding it, but gameplay isn't canon and storyline is right?

You don't seem to get it, do you Fishy? Unless it is confirmed by storyline, FMV, cutscene, or the like, it did not actually happen. Gameplay elements are frequently exaggerated.

Like Wesker pointed out, in the ESB game, there is literally an infinite number of stormtroopers you can kill, there is no such thing as an infinite number of them even when the Empire was at its peak. These elements are commonly placed for entertainment purposes only and are not actually meant to be centerpieces in their accomplishments. Either back these things up with actual, confirmed facts and put them in context, or don't bother at all.



He's trying to downplay gameplay elements. The majority of what Revan has is gameplay. Most of the quotes for Revan are character quotes, therefore, all those sources (outside of saying he defeated Malak and the like, confirmed facts) are dubious.

It would be like me saying Jaden Korr went to Korriban, fought off a bunch of enemies, went to Hoth, infiltrated a Remnant base and killed several force users, went to Tatooine, defeated lightsaber-wielders on his/her very first mission, fought off reborns and bested a mutant rancor, went to Byss and beat 3 dark-side force users simultaneously simply because the game "required it."

Yes, all of those said missions were requirements, none of them were optional. Even if I were to use the optional missions, you must do at least 4 out of 5 of the missions, so there is a great possibility that they were also completed.

Like I mentioned, stick with confirmed storyline, not "well the game requires X, so it must have happened in way Y."

Originally posted by Wesker
]God may know, but does Fishy? Prove up. They were Gamorreans anyways. ROTJ Luke could simply push them aside.

No, I have no idea how many there were.. There were a few however and he did fight without the force, which is supposed to be really hard. Still not like it matters.



Actually, if we would think about it logically which is apparantly allowed again we would know that Revan entered the Sith base fougth at least 1 droid and several guards in the hall. Now any half assed base would have used an alarm, he cuoldn't have snuck by that either because he had 2 other people with him. Who could have used stealth generators too I guess, but even so he would have faced at least one guard droid there and that would have made the alarms ring. The Sith below even says that he heard the commotion up stairs.

Indicating a fight, and guards would have responded to that... Logically.




Who's arguing about Bandon now? Anyways yeah I agree it wasn't that impressive he did kill a Sith without the force though.



Well obviously it takes skill, if any Jedi could have done that easily without experience why wouldn't OBi Wan Kenobi or QGJ have raced there? I mean it was a safer bet if it was easy for a Jedi. If he would have used the force I would have agreed it wasn't that big a deal shows talent. However in this case it serves to illustrate a point, he had great reflexes even without the force.


More unsubstantiated feat wars...

How so? Is there any doubt that he won the fight against Calo and Davik while the planet was bombed? Have you even played Kotor, he walks in the people start fighting they win.



I said possibly did it, and I don't see how these are feat wars as they prove that he did things without the force.

P/QUOTE]

Ulic was cut of from the force but he still had the force, you can't remove the force from somebody unless your Nihilus. Revan didn't know any techniques he didn't know how to use it he couldn't use it. TPM Anakin did indeed do the same, and i'm sure many others have done so as well, but the simple fact remains that doing things without the force doesn't suddenly make you a god.

Revan did plenty without the force and it doesn't make him a god, and that was IKC his argument for Ulic he defeated a Jedi without the force. Well big deal, so did Echani, so did Mandelorians... The whole Revan thing was just to show that Jedi could still be skilled even without the force. Ulic defeating one Jedi without the force doesn't give him victory.

This Kun pwns all mentality is beginning to piss me off...

You guys should reread your own posts its actually sort of funny.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You don't seem to get it, do you Fishy? Unless it is confirmed by storyline, FMV, cutscene, or the like, it did not actually happen. Gameplay elements are frequently exaggerated.

Yes they are, which is when logic comes into play.

Davik was a crime lord, cirme lords have protection he even says he does. You disobeyed his orders and like he promised his guards tried to kill Revan, this is the only logical thing to have happened, it is canon that Revan stole the Ebon Hawk, so it is canon he went through that base. Logic would dictate that he was seen and killed at least a few guards, how many is up for graps but thats also not the point



But then there lies the problem, logically we know that Revan fought there, logically we know he faced people in the Sith base. Its a SITH Base... Logically we know from reports on the base from Canderous and others that its heavily guarded. Logically that would mean that an alarm went off and that Revan and his friends met at least several guards, when entering or leaving the Sith Base.



Yet quotes from people in comics or movies are often allowed, whats the difference between a game character quote and a quote from a character like that.



I haven't played Jedi Accademy in a long time, but he did go to Hoth he did destroy lightsaber wielders, how many is unknown. How ever there is no other possibility so he did.



And this proves what exactly? That he did do things, like Revan did do things without the force. Which was my argument here really.



No but if the game requires you to steal launch codes, and the only way to get them is to kill a Sith apprentice and take them, and then leave the Sith base, we can safely say he did indeed do that.

Now logic would dictate that a sith base has guards, as that is also confirmed by characters in game, logic would dictate that the NPC who heard a disturbance up stairs would have heard a fight, logic would dictate that if a fight happened an alarm would have been sound or at least several Sith soldiers were killed. Logical assumptions based on common sense. I'm not claiming he slaughtered through a Sith base and killed god knows how many people there. I'm claiming he went into a Sith base fought then went into an elevator killed a Sith apprentice and then left the base again. And that a commotion was started while doing that.