Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who would really win in a fight?

I'll post my arguments later for why Vader would royally stomp Superman, but I just want to other some other views first.

im not sure what vader would do against a speed blitz + heatvsion or freeze breath....

he is obviously better h2h, but there is a huge gap in variety of powers, IMHO

Superman wins.

Funny thread. Superman wins.

Superman crushes vaders armour lke the cheap 1970's plastic that it is ....

this is as bad as batman vs. superman, before vader can even move superman is riping him in half. or worse

Why do people think Darth Vader can stand up to near gods? Seriously. Vader wouldn't be able to concerntrate long enough to do anything before Supes would tap him in the back of the head. Knocking him out. If he's lucky.

Vader. he'll use the force on him.

Vader has nothing on a man who survived a blast equal to 1 million nukes at ground zero or that has survived the crushing force of a black hole.

So can Vader generate a force greater than a black hole and a blast greater than one million nukes?

Supes just vibrates intangible speedblitz to Vader and flicks his head off, before Vader has a chance to think or get procog.

Just in case any mods have a problem, both of these characters are actually comic book characters. Yes, Vader has his own comic book.

Originally posted by Murda Mase
Vader. he'll use the force on him.

...And do what ?

Choke him , that would involve making supes throat contract upon itself , and his throat muscles are too strong to be affected by the weak tk.

Mind Trick , Supes is VERY resistant to telepathy.

It is said that Supes has the greatest will of all DC. Does Vader have the greatest will of the SW universe?

Mind tricks wont work on the man of steel.

Well they have worked before and we don't know how powerful his are..

First of all, Vader is alot faster than any of you think. He has force speed, which augments all of his movements, to the point of allowing him to move at speeds above the speed of light. Proof? We see him and many other Jedi able to deflect lazers all of the time on all sides. And lazers, by definition, are as fast as the speed of light. Superman rarely even moves at the speed of sound. He wouldn't know what hit him.

Secondly, the lightsaber would more than easily cut through Superman. Are any of you aware that blast doors and blasters are in the range of gigatons and megatons in the starwars universe? A blast door itself is around 1000 megatons or gigatons, yet in Episode 1, we see quigon easily piercing through one with his lightsaber. So that drops any argument about Superman not being affected. Whereas in Kingdom Come, we see superman draw blood from a friggin sword. In DKR, we see Supes nearly killed by a mere concussion from a nuke. Sliced, diced, filletted. Superman would be dead meat.

Third, the force would work on Supes. We have the remember that the force has the nearly the same properties of magic, which has costed Superman many battles. He is always beaten by magic. Heck, Vader wouldn't even have to be in the same room to beat Superman.

He could force choke him in the comfort of his favorite chair, with Superman in his sites, via holo net, just as he had done in the empire strikes back.

Fourth, even if Superman's will were so great, Vader could more than easily break it with the force power known as Battle meditation. It would reduce Supes will to 0, while increasing Vader's by 100.

Lastly, Jedi are able to see into the future. Vader would have predicted the fight, thus would already be prepared. He'd just send an armada to earth, and capture lois lane. Or he'd have Boba fett steal a kryptonite shard, and have him bring Superman's head back on a platter About the mind trick: Poison effected Superman controlled Superman's mind with her charms during hush, whereas Batman(a mere human) has resisted them in the past. So a Jedi mind trick would more than easily effect Superman.

Vader would destroy Superman, easily.

You know whats funny? i think Vader could win this fight
alot of people have a dark misconception on the true rawness of jedi's

A lightsaber would probably cut through Superman, considering vader could even strike him

ANd yes you could equate magic to force, superman has some problems with magic doesnt he?

now i wouldent just HAND it to vader or superman

but i think some people are underestimateing Vader in this case

Light speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>force speed

As for the lasers, deflecting them has more to do with timing rather than moving at light speed and it has never been stated that blasters in the Starwars universe move anywhere close to lightspeed (if they did you couldn't track them across the damn movie screen). The light saber might cut Superman but before Vader can even think about using it, Superman will have shoved it up his ass. Superman has been against top level telepaths and telekentics (ones a lot more powerful than Vader) and has done fine.
Lasty, the only advantage seeing the future is that it will allow him to see his own death.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
First of all, Vader is alot faster than any of you think. He has force speed, which augments all of his movements, to the point of allowing him to move at speeds above the speed of light. Proof? We see him and many other Jedi able to deflect lazers all of the time on all sides. And lazers, by definition, are as fast as the speed of light. Superman rarely even moves at the speed of sound. He wouldn't know what hit him.
Dude, EVERY hero in Marvel and DC dodges lasers. So does this make them faster than the speed of light ?

Speculation. You got any proof ?

The Force has nothing in common with magic. Again, speculation. And it's a HUGE misconception that Superman is weak to magic. He isn't. He just hasn't any special protection for it. There's a difference.

Bollocks.

Now Vader is a jedi ? And can see in the future ? Too bad all those dead Jedis in ROTS didn't see it coming...

Read it again, what you just wrote. Sounds stupid, doesn't it ?

That has nothing to with moving at the speed of light , it's pre-cog.



More then likely for dramatic effect or Pis , The lightsaber may scratch or scorch supes. But slice him in half with no resistance...not happening . His bio-forcefeild alone should block it .




Bullshit , magic affects superman in the same way it affects a normal human. The force is a quasi telepathic power endowed by a semi-mutation. Their is nothing magical about the force in the slightest.




That was only created for a game and was a half assed attempt at explaining why no one ran in the battle of endor.



Jedi see into the future about five minutes ahead at best. The only other pre-cog shown is hazy at best.

And the only reason batman resisted and not supes was because of bat's jobber aura



You finally make sense

Originally posted by who?-kid
Dude, EVERY hero in Marvel and DC dodges lasers. So does this make them faster than the speed of light ?

Speculation. You got any proof ?

The Force has nothing in common with magic. Again, speculation. And it's a HUGE misconception that Superman is weak to magic. He isn't. He just hasn't any special protection for it. There's a difference.

Bollocks.

Now Vader is a jedi ? And can see in the future ? Too bad all those dead Jedis in ROTS didn't see it coming...

Read it again, what you just wrote. Sounds stupid, doesn't it ?

Damn you beat me to it.....

Its hard to say how superman would react to the force becuase according to the Star wars universe, it is inside all living things.
I duno

Ide be hard pressed to give Vader the advantage, but thiersa few variables that make it kinda difficult

Originally posted by grey fox
Damn you beat me to it.....
Yeah I really really wanted to be the first one... you don't get a thread like this every day

Originally posted by who?-kid
Yeah I really really wanted to be the first one... you don't get a thread like this every day


Kinda makes you miss Wolverine8888 a little, huh?

superman has killed him before vader can grab lightsaber

Originally posted by TheKahn
Kinda makes you miss Wolverine8888 a little, huh?

Yeah.....

Originally posted by TheKahn
Kinda makes you miss Wolverine8888 a little, huh?
Lol hardly.

But, this is maybe hard to believe, but Wolverine8888 was actually a pretty good debater. He doesn't deserve his very very bad reputation, there are much worse debaters.

Or, let's put it this way, he defended Wolverine pretty good at times (minus the exaggerations from time to time).

Within the first split-second of the fight, Superman turns intangible and invisible, so that he can neither be seen nor harmed in any way.

He then walks up to Vader and remterialises his finger inside Vader's brain.

Instant dead Vader.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Hey, be nice. It's only a forum. No need to make thoust soundeth foolish, just in difference of opinion.
Sorry, you have a point.

How will Vader cut Supes if he can vibrate intangible?

Would the force work against and intangible supes?

Supes has withstood the force of a nuke while sitting in kryptonite laced sand.

Supes has shrugged of a laser that can cut thru adamantium. So I think he can shrugg of a light saber too.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
Within the first split-second of the fight, Superman turns intangible and invisible, so that he can neither be seen nor harmed in any way.

He then walks up to Vader and remterialises his finger inside Vader's brain.

Instant dead Vader.

Only pre-crisis Superman can do that, and I'm not referring to him in this thread, simply because I'd get less attention proving that Vader would beat him as well.

Anyway, as to that point, Vader could use force sight to see the seemingly invisible Superman, and could use a mind trick to have him do his bidding, even in his intangible form.

It's called a JOBBER AURA , that is how batman can outdo supes, and palpatine is far more powerful then vader .



'Superman can only move at speeds 99% the speed of light' , do you realise how dumb that sounds. Jedi only block a laser blast because they see the shot being fired at that position seconds earlier. No light speed movements just simple pre-cog.



Because the empire is an incredibly large sprawling military group . A few leaks here and their will do nothing. From your theory palpatine does nothing but battle meditate , it is only speculation that he used it at the battle of endor anyway, and dot start about what is and isn't allowed in this thread. I know how this section works thank-you very much.

Oh and the trump card. Since no incarnation of Supes was specified I can technically choose PC Supes. He'll sneeze Vader out of existance, along with the rest of the solar system.

Muahahahahahahahaha

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Only pre-crisis Superman can do that, and I'm not referring to him in this thread, simply because I'd get less attention proving that Vader would beat him as well.

Anyway, as to that point, Vader could use force sight to see the seemingly invisible Superman, and could use a mind trick to have him do his bidding, even in his intangible form.

A) No. Post-Crisis Superman can go intangible and invisible too.

B) Vader won't be seeing anything with his forcesight, because the scenario I laid out above will happen in a thousandth of a second.

True that. All previous posts I made of Supes abilities are for posr crisis.

How will Vader cut Supes if he can vibrate intangible?

Wouldn't have to. A mind trick would work quite perfectly.

Would the force work against and intangible supes?

Depends on which force power. Though I can think of ones that would seriously effect Supes, I highly doubt Vader knows of them.

Supes has withstood the force of a nuke while sitting in kryptonite laced sand.

Yet other times, he has been knocked out by krptonite gas. There are too many occassions when Superman has been knocked out by kryptonite, so him being able to withstand it once doesn't matter. And like I said above: In DKR, Superman nearly died from the mere concussion of a nuke.

Supes has shrugged of a laser that can cut thru adamantium. So I think he can shrugg of a light saber too.

Adamantium? Is that even in the DC universe? Lightsabers are able to cut through Cortosis, which is apparently the strongest metal in the starwars universe.

No. Vader cannot break the will of the greatest will in DCU.

Whoes definition says that the blasters in Starwars shoot energy that travels as the speed of light? We don't know how fast they go and you are assuming it at the speed of light (again not possible because you couldn't see anything moving at that speed. You can't even see a bullet in flight)

Superman can resist telepathic/mental manipulation or outright domination thanks to his Kryptonian knowledge of "Torquasm Vo" (a mental training technique).

As for the force choke: "it's been established that if the effect of magic is used to simulate or enhance a naturally occurring force (such as the natural elements or concussive energy, for example), Superman's natural defenses reacts to them normally."
He took a freaking hit form thor's magic hammer and punches from Shazam. Even if the Force is magic (its not) it isn't strong enough to hurt Superman.

Besides Superman heat vision is hotter than a star, and I don't think old Vader is blocking that.

You can't show one speed feat of any jedi or seth that proves that they will last two seconds.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
A) No. Post-Crisis Superman can go intangible and invisible too.

B) Vader won't be seeing anything with his forcesight, because the scenario I laid out above will happen in a thousandth of a second.



Post crisis goes intangible and invisible. Since when? Oh well. One thing I do know is that Post Crisis only moves at 99% the speed of light(he rarely even chooses to use super speed). The lazers we see Jedi deflecting move at the speed of light, and happen to be numerous. So Vader would remain one step ahead of supes.

The whole faster than light thing?
Blasters aren't lasers. They're concertrated heat fired made from a type of gas. They don't move at the speed of light, and in fact, move slower than bullets.

Oh dear.

Originally posted by Private Pion
The whole faster than light thing?
Blasters aren't lasers. They're concertrated heat fired made from a type of gas. They don't move at the speed of light, and in fact, move slower than bullets.

Oh dear.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Post crisis goes intangible and invisible. Since when? Oh well. One thing I do know is that Post Crisis only moves at 99% the speed of light(he rarely even chooses to use super speed). The lazers we see Jedi deflecting move at the speed of light, and happen to be numerous. So Vader would remain one step ahead of supes.

Take a look in the Superman respect thread. There you'll see post-Crisis - and in fact quite recent, Post Crisis - Superman turning invisible and intangible on two seperate occassions.

And Superman has recently travelled several times faster than light.

And as for Kryptonite - it's not a truly lethal weakness anymore, as it was.

He's been getting stronger every issue for a long while.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Post crisis goes intangible and invisible. Since when? Oh well. One thing I do know is that Post Crisis only moves at 99% the speed of light(he rarely even chooses to use super speed). The lazers we see Jedi deflecting move at the speed of light, and happen to be numerous. So Vader would remain one step ahead of supes.

In Man of Steel #110 he vibrates invisible and in Superman #175 he vibrates intangible.

1. Force powers
2. Lightsaber could cut through Supes most likely
3. Jedi-reflex

However...

1. Superman would rip Vader's armor apart with extreme ease
2. Speedblitz
3. Superman has too many things that would hurt Vader. The breath, the eyes, the strength, etc.

Superman wins. The only way he loses is if Anakin is fast enough to lock on a Force Choke and start zapping away with Force Lightning - which he couldn't do while mechanical since it would just short-circuit him.

Why is it that people think Darth Vader can use every force power ever? Didn't someone in here say he could use battle meditation? Hah.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Whoes definition says that the blasters in Starwars shoot energy that travels as the speed of light? We don't know how fast they go and you are assuming it at the speed of light (again not possible because you couldn't see anything moving at that speed. You can't even see a bullet in flight)

Superman can resist telepathic/mental manipulation or outright domination thanks to his Kryptonian knowledge of "Torquasm Vo" (a mental training technique).

As for the force choke: "it's been established that if the effect of magic is used to simulate or enhance a naturally occurring force (such as the natural elements or concussive energy, for example), Superman's natural defenses reacts to them normally."
He took a freaking hit form thor's magic hammer and punches from Shazam. Even if the Force is magic (its not) it isn't strong enough to hurt Superman.

Besides Superman heat vision is hotter than a star, and I don't think old Vader is blocking that.

You can't show one speed feat of any jedi or seth that proves that they will last two seconds.

Since you're going to keep going out of canon, I'm going to do the same. In the Jedi Knight series, force speed was described as being able to slow down time. Being the sith lord that Vader is, he could simply slow down time, walk up to Supes, and kill him at least 50 times.

The lazers in the starwars universe need no definition, as it is common knowledge that lazers move at the speed of light. Just like most of the arguments here, they are backed up by our knowledge and our understanding, not actually being stated in even universe. As for bullets, they slow those down quite well in the matrix, but does that mean they are as slow as a tortoise. It's merely special effects.

Superman was said to know a plethora of kryptonian martial arts, yet that still never saves him in fights with Batman or darkseid. Both have given him quite the beating. I assume that this mental blockade is the same. Still, from what we've seen in hush, it looks like that kryptonian mumbo jumbo didn't do him a bit of good.

The force is not magic. It is superior to magic. It is literally the power of the universe itself, and hasn't once shown any limitations. As for Superman's heat vision, it has shown limitations, such as barely being able to scorch the moon, whereas the lightsaber can cut through nearly, if not, then anything.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
The force is not magic. It is superior to magic. It is literally the power of the universe itself, and hasn't once shown any limitations. As for Superman's heat vision, it has shown limitations, such as barely being able to scorch the moon, whereas the lightsaber can cut through nearly, if not, then anything.

The universe loves Superman. He has cosmic significance. Thus-The force would refuse to hurt him.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
Take a look in the Superman respect thread. There you'll see post-Crisis - and in fact quite recent, Post Crisis - Superman turning invisible and intangible on two seperate occassions.

And Superman has recently travelled several times faster than light.

And as for Kryptonite - it's not a truly lethal weakness anymore, as it was.

He's been getting stronger every issue for a long while.

You learn something new every day. Even if he is several times faster than the speed of light, there's still the fact that the jedi deflect several projectiles coming at them(all moving at the speed of light). So that's like what? 15 lazers deflected? 8 or 9x the speed of light?]

Again though, Supes is NOT going to come in at his fastest against Vader(wouldn't matter if he did), but he won't. Now if this were "Zod vs Darth Vader", Vader might have had to worry about that, but Supes would more than likely hold back. Now if Jedi aren't simply that fast, but rather rely on pre-cog, speed would never be a problem.

Originally posted by Private Pion
The universe loves Superman. He has cosmic significance. Thus-The force would refuse to hurt him.


Good point

Originally posted by Private Pion
The whole faster than light thing?
Blasters aren't lasers. They're concertrated heat fired made from a type of gas. They don't move at the speed of light, and in fact, move slower than bullets.

Oh dear.

Speculation at best. Also, I think I'm starting to agree with this pre-cog argument. With every move being predicted, there's no way to win.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You learn something new every day. Even if he is several times faster than the speed of light, there's still the fact that the jedi deflect several projectiles coming at them(all moving at the speed of light). So that's like what? 15 lazers deflected? 8 or 9x the speed of light?]

Again though, Supes is NOT going to come in at his fastest against Vader(wouldn't matter if he did), but he won't. Now if this were "Zod vs Darth Vader", Vader might have had to worry about that, but Supes would more than likely hold back. Now if Jedi aren't simply that fast, but rather rely on pre-cog, speed would never be a problem.


Projectiles that you can't prove move at light speed (weird thing that vader is moving at light speed but you can still see him, too), and since when did you get to decide the tactics Superman would use in the fight? Its been said before Superman just has too many ways to kill Vader like heat vision (did you really compare heat vision that can scortch a planet with a sword ?), freeze breath, & superspeed

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Since you're going to keep going out of canon, I'm going to do the same. In the Jedi Knight series, force speed was described as being able to slow down time. Being the sith lord that Vader is, he could simply slow down time, walk up to Supes, and kill him at least 50 times.

......................................

The force is not magic. It is superior to magic. It is literally the power of the universe itself, and hasn't once shown any limitations. As for Superman's heat vision, it has shown limitations, such as barely being able to scorch the moon, whereas the lightsaber can cut through nearly, if not, then anything.

Now where exactly has he been going out of canon pray tell?

He's not said anything out of DC cannon whatsoever.And I'm afraid that none of Vader's forcepowers will be any good against someone who moves faster than he can even think.

A jedi can only block a laser blast because it moves in a set straight line and it cannot dodge around his lightsabre.

Now Superman on the other hand....

When he moves, time slows down, Flash style....

As he runs towards Vader, because of Vader's pre-cog, the light sbare will be just where Supes is about to run to....

However - Superman can SEE where the light sabre is....

And unlike a blaster shot, he decides to AVOID it.

Now, moving at the speed of light, he decides to approach Vader from the other side....

Now unless Vader can SEE Superman feinting to another side, process this information, move his hand and lightsabre to a new position in order to block Superman's new approach.... all at FASTER THAN LIGHT speeds....

Then Vader is dead.



Vader simply is not fast enough to bring ANY of his powers to play.

A laser beam might travel in a straight line, which means, if you know which direction it is going to go in, and you know it can't deviate from that path, it's easy to deflect.

But against something which is just as fast as that laser beam, but which has intelligence and can decide to move around obstacles by any number of paths....

You're screwed....

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Speculation at best. Also, I think I'm starting to agree with this pre-cog argument. With every move being predicted, there's no way to win.


Hardly, you could know exactly how a gang of bikers would beat you up and you'd still get curbstomped.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Speculation at best. Also, I think I'm starting to agree with this pre-cog argument. With every move being predicted, there's no way to win.

Nope. ^^ Got the Star Wars Essential Weapons and Gadgets book in front of me right now.

Nope. ^^ Got the Star Wars Essential Weapons and Gadgets book in front of me right now.

I find that as relevant as all the guides about the power levels of the DBZ characters, and two of the marvel encyclopedias made(one claiming Spiderman can lift 7 tons). Unless it is officially approved word for word by Lucas and the rest of his team, it's non-canonical.

Whoops.^^

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Nope. ^^ Got the Star Wars Essential Weapons and Gadgets book in front of me right now.

I find that as relevant as all the guides about the power levels of the DBZ characters, and two of the marvel encyclopedias made(one claiming Spiderman can lift 7 tons). Unless it is officially approved word for word by Lucas and the rest of his team, it's non-canonical.


So let me get this straight: Pion finds how the blasters work out of a Star Wars book that states how the weapons work, I and others point out that neither the blasters or Vader could be moving at light speed as you can see them move, and you haven't shown any proof to prove your contention...

But were just suspose to take you un-proven theory that Vader can move at light speed???

Projectiles that you can't prove move at light speed (weird thing that vader is moving at light speed but you can still see him, too), and since when did you get to decide the tactics Superman would use in the fight? Its been said before Superman just has too many ways to kill Vader like heat vision (did you really compare heat vision that can scortch a planet with a sword ?), freeze breath, & superspeed.

In the movie and the comics, we see Superman moving too. Again, it's merely the choice of special effects. It would only be boring, if we could not see Vader. I'm telling you the tactics Supes always uses. You would have a point, if this were Zod we were discussing, but this is Superman. Superman doesn't kill(not that he'd be able to kill Vader). And yes, I did compare gus geat vision that can barely scorch the moon, to a lightsaber that can easily cut through doors in the range of a 1000 gigatons or megatons. Got a problem?

I m ggoing to creat a dark vader vs darksied thread

Originally posted by Private Pion
Whoops.^^

I said by Lucas, and his whole team. Lucas was not the only one to work on Starwars.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin

In the movie and the comics, we see Superman moving too. Again, it's merely the choice of special effects. It would only be boring, if we could not see Vader. I'm telling you the tactics Supes always uses. You would have a point, if this were Zod we were discussing, but this is Superman. Superman doesn't kill(not that he'd be able to kill Vader). And yes, I did compare gus geat vision that can barely scorch the moon, to a lightsaber that can easily cut through doors in the range of a 1000 gigatons or megatons. Got a problem?


I'll try to keep this simple:

In the movies and comics, yes we are able to see Superman move. This proves that he can move at a normal (sub-light) speed. We also see Vader move, so he can move at a normal speed as well.

The difference is that in the movie and comics we have seen Superman move at light speed (numerous times in the comics and he did fly fast enough to reverse time in the damn movie!). Vader doesn't have a similar showing ANYWHERE.

What have we proven?
Superman can move as fast as a normal human
So can Vader

Superman can move at the speed of light
Vader can't


Oh, and Pion is right about the blasters. All comic and movie showings support him as well as the Starwars book. You haven't shown any evidence for you position, so he is right until you can offer some proof to the contrary.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I'll try to keep this simple:

In the movies and comics, yes we are able to see Superman move. This proves that he can move at a normal (sub-light) speed. We also see Vader move, so he can move at a normal speed as well.

The difference is that in the movie and comics we have seen Superman move at light speed (numerous times in the comics and he did fly fast enough to reverse time in the damn movie!). Vader doesn't have a similar showing ANYWHERE.

What have we proven?
Superman can move as fast as a normal human
So can Vader

Superman can move at the speed of light
Vader can't



Exactly.

Vader is a statue compared to Superman.

Superman's reaction times are so fast that Vader isn't actually moving in comparison.

Vader is dead.

Originally posted by TheKahn
So let me get this straight: Pion finds how the blasters work out of a Star Wars book that states how the weapons work, I and others point out that neither the blasters or Vader could be moving at light speed as you can see them move, and you haven't shown any proof to prove your contention...

But were just suspose to take you un-proven theory that Vader can move at light speed???

I've stated my proof. They are lazers. Your only arguments against this have proven to be the efforts of grasping, and that they could be seen. My counter argument was that seeing them was merely the directors choice. We can see phazer beams on star trek, yet those are implied to be of light speed. My other counter argument to this was that even if the blasters didn't move at the speed of light, there is still the fact about pre-cog.

Yeah, but really, every source says that its a heated particle beam made from gas and is NOT a laser. It doesn't matter if Lucas said it or not. Bobba Fett died in the Sarlac pit according to Lucas, but its generally agreed that he's still alive and kicking elsewhere and I've yet to meet someone who doesn't think thats the way it is.

Also, Han shot first.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I've stated my proof. They are lazers. Your only arguments against this have proven to be the efforts of grasping, and that they could be seen. My counter argument was that seeing them was merely the directors choice. We can see phazer beams on star trek, yet those are implied to be of light speed. My other counter argument to this was that even if the blasters didn't move at the speed of light, there is still the fact about pre-cog.


Your definition of what a laser is isn't the same as what George Lucus' Company and the Starwars universe have STATED a blaster is. They are different and work different.
Again, official explanitions >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories of fans

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
And Superman has recently travelled several times faster than light.


When did he do this?

Just how do all comic and movie showings support him as well. 5 minutes ago, you were merely stating that we don't know what speed the blasters move at, yet know, you are acting as if you've known all along. You only cling to this booklet as proof of the blasters speed. I simply don't take this starwars booklet as proof, because books like these have been made before, and were hardly ever accurate. And slower than bullets? Ha!

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Just how do all comic and movie showings support him as well. 5 minutes ago, you were merely stating that we don't know what speed the blasters move at, yet know, you are acting as if you've known all along. You only cling to this booklet as proof of the blasters speed. I simply don't take this starwars booklet as proof, because books like these have been made before, and were hardly ever accurate. And slower than bullets? Ha!


Thats right. 5 minutes ago I didn't know. Pion provied PROOF that fits all of the showings and you didn't. So now I and everyone else knows that the blasters don't move at the speed of light. Unless you have some proof???

Originally posted by Private Pion
Yeah, but really, every source says that its a heated particle beam made from gas and is NOT a laser. It doesn't matter if Lucas said it or not. Bobba Fett died in the Sarlac pit according to Lucas, but its generally agreed that he's still alive and kicking elsewhere and I've yet to meet someone who doesn't think thats the way it is.

Also, Han shot first.

What do you mean "every source"? You've simply pointed out one. And I assume that the part claiming that it was slower than a bullet was personally your part of the reply. Since this thread is not limited to the restrictions of canon, Boba Fett is alive. You see, Lucas had approved of the game "Jedi Academy", which featured Boba Fett as one of the Bosses. I think that this booklet you have access to was only approved in being made by the Lucas name, just so the author wouldn't be sued.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Just how do all comic and movie showings support him as well. 5 minutes ago, you were merely stating that we don't know what speed the blasters move at, yet know, you are acting as if you've known all along. You only cling to this booklet as proof of the blasters speed. I simply don't take this starwars booklet as proof, because books like these have been made before, and were hardly ever accurate. And slower than bullets? Ha!

They're slower than bullets, which is why HAN can bloody dodge 'em. You don't need Pre-cog at all, just good reflexes.

Blasters shoot superheated molecues, which are physical matter. Very, very hot, physical matter.

Also, lightsabres are exactly the same as blasters, except they are maintained, via their crystals rather than the sudden burst of gas. They're molecules that contain amazing heat levels. They are not. And never where, will be or are at all, light.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Thats right. 5 minutes ago I didn't know. Pion provied PROOF that fits all of the showings and you didn't. So now I and everyone else knows that the blasters don't move at the speed of light. Unless you have some proof???

But it wasn't proof. It was merely a booklet authorized by a fan, that had gotten Lucasarts to approve, just so he wouldn't be sued. These kinds of books are made all of the time, and are hardly ever accurate. Therefore, like nearly every bit of info provided here, is merely speculation. Besides, from what it seems, the blaster, seeming to move just like a phazer, moves at light speed.

Another thing I had picked up. According to Lucas, Boba Fett had died in the Starwars films. Yet if we look at what is Lucas approved(yes, not the whole team), Lucas had approved of the Jedi Knight series which takes place after the Starwars films, which features Boba Fett. So this argument about the booklet is debunked.

Okay, here are some facts, love them or hate them :

- Darth Vader (DV) does NOT move faster than light. He barely moves as fast as let's say Batman or Captain America - and I am being generous here.

- DV has NO (true) precog, he only has vague telepathic abilities (if you want to call a "I feel a disturbance in the force" pre cog, be my guest)

- DV can throw his mental/half telepathic tricks through the window, they won't work. Much more powerful telepaths have tried to enslave Superman, but they didn't know about the extremely powerful willpower Superman possesses.

- Superman is literally thousands times faster than DV. He can do whatever he wants with DV before DV even realizes he is under attack.

- DV can not block a heat ray from Superman, nor can he block his ice-breath.

- Superman can throw a mountain at DV, and DV couldn't do a thing about it.

- Superman can totally thrash DV in one second, he'll move so fast DV will seem to react in slow motion.

- The Force is not the same as magic. And even if it were, so ? Big deal.

- Last but not least, DV is an old man wearing a protective suit that has to keep him alive, with rather vague telepathic powers, a few mental tricks, low telekinetic powers and a sharp sword. Superman outclasses DV in every physical way by a factor 10.000.

Originally posted by Private Pion
They're slower than bullets, which is why HAN can bloody dodge 'em. You don't need Pre-cog at all, just good reflexes.

Blasters shoot superheated molecues, which are physical matter. Very, very hot, physical matter.

Also, lightsabres are exactly the same as blasters, except they are maintained, via their crystals rather than the sudden burst of gas. They're molecules that contain amazing heat levels. They are not. And never where, will be or are at all, light.

Dodging is almost always the result of poor aim. Otherwise, we would have seen far less stormtroopers being hit by blaster bolts.

I had never said the same about lightsabers. I had merely stated that it would be able to cut through Superman, due to it being able to cut through doors within the megaton and gigaton range.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
But it wasn't proof. It was merely a booklet authorized by a fan, that had gotten Lucasarts to approve, just so he wouldn't be sued. These kinds of books are made all of the time, and are hardly ever accurate. Therefore, like nearly every bit of info provided here, is merely speculation. Besides, from what it seems, the blaster, seeming to move just like a phazer, moves at light speed.



Simply dismissing APROVED information because you don't agree isn't proof. Show one Lucas approved verion of your theory on how the blasters work. If you can't, well then we'll all just have to go with the approved info.

Well said who?-kid

how is this still going on ?

Originally posted by TheKahn
Simply dismissing APROVED information because you don't agree isn't proof. Show one Lucas approved verion of your theory on how the blasters work. If you can't, well then we'll all just have to go with the approved info.

Don't have to for two reasons. One: This booklet wasn't actually created by Lucas and his whole team. It was merely approved in terms of creation, just so Lucasarts could get a profit. You name one time this theory of blasters being described by Lucas and his whole team. If you can't, then this point about the booklet remains moot. Two, it's well accepted by definition within science fiction.

Originally posted by AJ4LIFE
how is this still going on ?

I'm quite the stubborn one, and I simply don't see anything that proves Superman would beat Vader. Superman beating Vader is like the Yankees winning the world series: Just because he has a wide range of good superpowers, it doesn't mean that he stands a chance at winning.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I'm quite the stubborn one, and I simply don't see anything that proves Superman would beat Vader. Superman beating Vader is like the Yankees winning the world series: Just because he has a wide range of good superpowers, it doesn't mean that he stands a chance at winning.


Try reading the other posts...

Originally posted by TheKahn
Try reading the other posts...

Well since I've refuted just about everything here, that really doesn't help

Anyway, I've g2g.

I'll be back later.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Well since I've refuted just about everything here, that really doesn't help

Anyway, I've g2g.

I'll be back later.

You've not refuted the fact that Vader is millions of times slower than Superman and thus can do nothing to react to him or attack him.

In the first splitsecond of the fight, Vader is dead.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
You've not refuted the fact that Vader is millions of times slower than Superman and thus can do nothing to react to him or attack him.

In the first splitsecond of the fight, Vader is dead.



Sure I have. Lazers move at the speed of light. Vader can deflect multiple ones. Therefore, Vader would see Superman coming, and chop his head off. But if you don't like the speed argument, then we can always include the fact that it would be out of character for Superman to come flying in at full speed, and that Vader could more than easily fry him with lightning, which livewire nearly killed him with. The problem here is that you have a bias. There is a reason in why I see Darkseid can beat Vader, yet Superman can't. I'm hardly a fan of either. I just happen to know plenty about both.

Don't know if this has been pointed out before but street level people dodge and deflect lasers all the time and last I checked they were not capable of moving at light speed.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Sure I have. Lazers move at the speed of light. Vader can deflect multiple ones. Therefore, Vader would see Superman coming, and chop his head off. But if you don't like the speed argument, then we can always include the fact that it would be out of character for Superman to come flying in at full speed, and that Vader could more than easily fry him with lightning, which livewire nearly killed him with. The problem here is that you have a bias. There is a reason in why I see Darkseid can beat Vader, yet Superman can't. I'm hardly a fan of either. I just happen to know plenty about both.


You haven't proving anything. Your arguement has consisted of you disagreeing with offically approved information and no evidence to back up your theory.

As in movies and comic books things often do not work in the same way as they do in reality (a large dose of radiation giving you superpowers instead of killing you for example). You cannot simply use a definitional argument as "proof" when their is approved statements to the contrary.

I think darth vader is very formittable but the determining factor for him is teh fact taht superman moves so much faster than him

but once again, i question how superman would react to the force, he hasnt really been exposed to that type of "magic"

but i dont see a mind trick working on superman

overall, superman has the advantage simply becuase of his speed
as long as he doesnt run into the light saber

You haven't proving anything. Your arguement has consisted of you disagreeing with offically approved information and no evidence to back up your theory.

As in movies and comic books things often do not work in the same way as they do in reality (a large dose of radiation giving you superpowers instead of killing you for example). You cannot simply use a definitional argument as "proof" when their is approved statements to the contrary.

I have not proven anything have I? Then tell me: Why is it that this is the only one of my arguments you are focusing on? You've omitted the rest, so I take it that you concede to them. Again, the booklet doesn't count, simply because those kinds of things have been contradicted far too often. And again, it was approved in terms of profit, not story. But even if you don't want to agree with the fact that the lazers in the starwars universe do move at lightspeed, you still have to answer to all the other things posted. Such as Superman being fried by force lightning, or controlled by a mind trick, or force choked, due to the fact of it having the same properties as magic.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Don't know if this has been pointed out before but street level people dodge and deflect lasers all the time and last I checked they were not capable of moving at light speed.
Too true. Here's Batman being faster than light.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

Originally posted by The Ion
Too true. Here's Batman being faster than light.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

they could be slow lasers........ Or bats just gained super speed or precog while are back was turned. That sneaky bastard.

Originally posted by The Ion
Too true. Here's Batman being faster than light.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

Batman's invincible. Plus, those lazers were in stasis.

Originally posted by Black Adam
they could be slow lasers........ Or bats just gained super speed or precog while are back was turned. That sneaky bastard.
I think he's tapping the speedforce.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin

I have not proven anything have I? Then tell me: Why is it that this is the only one of my arguments you are focusing on? You've omitted the rest, so I take it that you concede to them. Again, the booklet doesn't count, simply because those kinds of things have been contradicted far too often. And again, it was approved in terms of profit, not story. But even if you don't want to agree with the fact that the lazers in the starwars universe do move at lightspeed, you still have to answer to all the other things posted. Such as Superman being fried by force lightning, or controlled by a mind trick, or force choked, due to the fact of it having the same properties as magic.


I posted this on the second page:




The force isn't magic and even IF it was as all it does is stimulate a natural occruing force (ie some choking you or lighting) Superman's defenses would work against it. Besides Vader can't produce Force Lightning as he doesn't have organic hands.

Yes, and I posted this on the third.......

And the force lighning argument simply does not hold water. It's fact that Jedi can augment all senses and physical capabilities with the force. Darth Vader uses force speed all of the time(only way to deflect lazers), yet does not have organic hands. Here is another thing: he uses force grip in the movies multiple times, yet doesn't have organic hands. The physical body has nothing to do with manipulating the force.

And need I mention that livewire nearly killed Superman by frying him with high voltage? If it were not for the parasite's greed, he would have been dead. And if not for bad writing on other situations(such as extremely good luck), he would have been dead.


PS: Then again, what was I thinking? Forget this speed argument. Vader could just walk up to Superman, use force grip to hold him in place(just as Darth Tyranus had done in Episode Two), and proceed by chopping him into pieces.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Yes, and I posted this on the third.......

And the force lighning argument simply does not hold water. It's fact that Jedi can augment all senses and physical capabilities with the force. Darth Vader uses force speed all of the time(only way to deflect lazers), yet does not have organic hands. Here is another thing: he uses force grip in the movies multiple times, yet doesn't have organic hands. The physical body has nothing to do with manipulating the force.


Since you seem to be missing the key points I'll go through all of your points so you can respond since the speed difference has been settled:

1. Force lightning wouldn't work on Superman. The force isn't magic and if it was, as a natural phenomina (lighting) that has been magically created (The Force) Superman's defense would work against it. And it take more than lightning to hurt Superman.
Also Vader can't make Force lightning because he doesn't have hands (this is why he has never used it in the comics or in the movies). It is a different power than, say, the Force Choke. It comes out of the hands and Vader just doesn't have have any. If I'm wrong show a scan showing Vader using it or saying he could.

2. Superman's Torquasm Vo would protect Superman from any telepathic attack. It took Max Lord years to get past his defenses. And as Superman would be moving at the speed of light, its not like Vader would have time to actually form a single thought.

3. Force Choke is the same as the Force Lighting. Its origin in the Force would not allow it to hurt Superman as it is based on a natural (in comics anyway) phenonmia: telekinesis


So how exactly do you think Vader would hurt Superman? His light saber? Maybe, but Superman has withstood a nuclear blast before and I doubt a light saber gets any where close to being as hot as that. Regardless, Superman can kill Vader in a hundred ways before Vader even realizes the fight has started.

Superman can do this to Vader. Notice how he is performing a wide variety of attacks simultaneously.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2561/imperiex8if.th.jpg

Wow, talk about SW fanboyism in this thread.

No, Vader doesn't stand a chance = Vader's destiny in this match

Originally posted by TheKahn
Since you seem to be missing the key points I'll go through all of your points so you can respond since the speed difference has been settled:

1. Force lightning wouldn't work on Superman. The force isn't magic and if it was, as a natural phenomina (lighting) that has been magically created (The Force) Superman's defense would work against it. And it take more than lightning to hurt Superman.
Also Vader can't make Force lightning because he doesn't have hands (this is why he has never used it in the comics or in the movies). It is a different power than, say, the Force Choke. It comes out of the hands and Vader just doesn't have have any. If I'm wrong show a scan showing Vader using it or saying he could.

2. Superman's Torquasm Vo would protect Superman from any telepathic attack. It took Max Lord years to get past his defenses. And as Superman would be moving at the speed of light, its not like Vader would have time to actually form a single thought.

3. Force Choke is the same as the Force Lighting. Its origin in the Force would not allow it to hurt Superman as it is based on a natural (in comics anyway) phenonmia: telekinesis


So how exactly do you think Vader would hurt Superman? His light saber? Maybe, but Superman has withstood a nuclear blast before and I doubt a light saber gets any where close to being as hot as that. Regardless, Superman can kill Vader in a hundred ways before Vader even realizes the fight has started.

The Speed issue hasn't been settled, unless you agree that the lazers in the starwars universe move at the speed of light.

1. I don't have one, alas it's simply illogical to say that he cannot, considering that the force can be used with or without organic matter. Heck, even planets are able to manipulate the force(dagobah), or the Star Forge. The comics have simply contradicted themselves, if they do state that Vader cannot use force lightning because of this. A better excuse would be claiming that Vader was never trained that far into the Dark side. Force choke comes out of the hands too. Heck, why do you think Vader makes that gripping motion. The force is in all things.

2. Poison Ivy mind tricked Supes during Hush, and Superman has simply proven himself to be far too naive over the years. Pre-cog+force speed>>>>>Speed of light. Blasters in the starwars universe move at light speed mind you, and are still deflected with precision.

3. Uh no. It's literally using the force to take control over the natural forces(hence that magic definition I had listed above), crushing Supes throat, or Superman's brain even.

4. For the umpteenth time, a lightsaber can cut through a door with the megaton and gigaton range(approx. 1000). Of course it well surpasses the shielding against a nuke.

Vader has so many ways of beating supes, it's not even funny. Tactics, he doesn't hold back, precog, intelligence, more powers, and a weapon that can cut through nearly anything. Whereas Superman is not willing to kill, nor is he willing to move at the light speed. Not even at the speed of sound. You'd think he would have done this while fighting faust, but no, he did not. Here's something else to think about: During one of there first meetings, the villain known as parasite snuck up on Superman from behind, and absorbed his powers. Did Superman use super speed? No? Did his greatly exaggerated senses detect him? No. When it all comes down to it, Kal-el is just a tree-hugger with super powers. Don't expect him to use them correctly.

1. Still nothing to prove it will affect superman
2. He didn't got controlled by Ivy with TP or similar. It was by a different means
3. Natural forces. wtf. Even if it did, so what? Even if it controls the fundamental forces, doesn't mean it's potency is impossibly strong to gauge. Considering it affects superman, it would probably one second kill just about anyone in the SW universe.
4. blowup. When did those blast doors become gigaton in range or > than nuclear bombs?


Don't tell me all your facts come from SD.net?

I'll agree with you on the speed of the blasters as soon as you disprove Pions Offical explanition

1. I take that to mean you couldn't find a example of Vader using Force Lighting.

2. She uses chemicals not telepathy.

3. The problem is that it isn't strong enough to choke Superman (as the Force "magic" would count as a weakness to Superman). The Force Choke is basically a form of telekinsesis and Vader simply can't exert enough force to choke Superman. Remember that Superman's body has survived the tremendious forces of a nuclear explotions and black holes. Unless you are arguing that Vader can create forces stonger than thoes, the Force Choke wouldn't hurt Superman.

4. Doesn't mean that it would cut through Superman's bio-electric aura.


So, Vader is going to beat Superman with his intellegence and, umm, tactics??? I've shown that none of Vader's powers would hurt Superman. Superman geting touched by any villian that can't move at the speed of light is PIS. If Superman used all of his abilities in every fight, then there would only be a hand full of villians who wouldn't get beat in a fraction of a second.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
1. Still nothing to prove it will affect superman
2. He didn't got controlled by Ivy with TP or similar. It was by a different means
3. Natural forces. wtf. Even if it did, so what? Even if it controls the fundamental forces, doesn't mean it's potency is impossibly strong to gauge. Considering it affects superman, it would probably one second kill just about anyone in the SW universe.
4. blowup. When did those blast doors become gigaton in range or > than nuclear bombs?


Don't tell me all your facts come from SD.net?

1. bashblowup Wow, it just never ends. I fired nearly every bit of proof onto the floor. The puzzle fits perfectly, yet still you choose to say that Superman wouldn't be hurt, because he wouldn't. And I'm getting accussed of being a fanboy? I even go so far as to provide similar events of Supes being trounced, yet no luck. Even all of you're tones of posting are beginning to seem somewhat hostile. My gut says this thread will be locked soon.

2. Jedi Mind trick isn't telepathy. Ivy used kryptonite, so that Superman wouldn't be immune to the poisons of the toxin, to which the minor effects allow mind control. All of that stuff about will power, didn't help out Superman in the end. And by the way, Superman does NOT have the strongest will power in the DCU. His is not even as great as Batman's.

3. Manipulation of natural forces fall under the definition of magic, which has beaten Superman more times than one could shake a stick at. And yet, another person who chooses to grasp for straws.

4. They have always been so. Read up on the starwars books. It's stated after the ROTJ series.

Force Lighting and Choke are useless:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Weaknesses

"During the JLA/Avengers crossover, Superman battled Marvel Comics character Thor. Although the thunder god manages to get solid shots on the Last Son of Krypton with his mystical hammer "Mjolnir", it is evident that Superman's invulnerability still worked to resist the damage from the blows, even going so far as blocking the weapon mid-strike, as well as the lightning from the god's warhammer. It's been established that if the effect of magic is used to simulate or enhance a naturally occurring force (such as the natural elements or concussive energy, for example), Superman's natural defenses reacts to them normally. Effects that specifically alter the established laws of science are another matter entirely such as the natural weapons of supernatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.), spells and arcane energies targeted at the Man of Steel are treated as cast on any mortal."

Please don't mention SD.net, I hear Mike can sense when it's name appears on message boards.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I'll agree with you on the speed of the blasters as soon as you disprove Pions Offical explanition

1. I take that to mean you couldn't find a example of Vader using Force Lighting.

2. She uses chemicals not telepathy.

3. The problem is that it isn't strong enough to choke Superman (as the Force "magic" would count as a weakness to Superman). The Force Choke is basically a form of telekinsesis and Vader simply can't exert enough force to choke Superman. Remember that Superman's body has survived the tremendious forces of a nuclear explotions and black holes. Unless you are arguing that Vader can create forces stonger than thoes, the Force Choke wouldn't hurt Superman.

4. Doesn't mean that it would cut through Superman's bio-electric aura.


So, Vader is going to beat Superman with his intellegence and, umm, tactics??? I've shown that none of Vader's powers would hurt Superman. Superman geting touched by any villian that can't move at the speed of light is PIS. If Superman used all of his abilities in every fight, then there would only be a hand full of villians who wouldn't get beat in a fraction of a second.

Yet his explanation isn't official. It's merely one that had made money.

1. And I take it that you found no way of disproving my counter argument in that he could use it?

2. And the force isn't considered mere telepathy. If it were, there would be far more users within the SW universe who would have access to it. You were saying something along the lines that Superman's will was too strong to be taken over by a mind trick.

3. But it isn't telekenesis, it doesn't really even have the same properties, because telekenesis is not restricted to weak and strong minds. The force is channled off of universal energy. It is not restricted to one's mind. These assumptions of Vader's abilities grow tiring. Fact is, the force matches the same definition of magic, therefore has the same properties, therefore, Superman wouldn't have a strong resistance against it.

4. Uh, yeah it does. He nearly died from the mere conccussion of a nuke in DKR, and in Kingdome Come, he drew blood from a sword, that had a few magical properties.

5. No, you haven't. All you've done is tell me that Superman is too strong to be effected by the force. That's it. Unlike me, you didn't bother offering any comparisons that support your theory. And you keep putting off this force lightning argument by using the fallacious theory that Vader wouldn't be able to use it, because his hands are inorganic. PIS? According to this forums definitions, is something of the similar happens quite often, it's not PIS. Parasite is one of Superman's main villains, and yes, he has gotten ahold of Superman far more than once. If anything is PIS, it's Superman moving at lightspeed or having a blood lust. Supes is a softy, and would not win.

Here's Supes easily taking a nuke

Superman pulls Dominus into a physic arena where he can manipulate reality (meaning mind isn't some where you want to get into)
http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=torquasmvo4po.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vo23kw.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vo31hz.jpg

Here is supes surviving an island destroying nuke at ground zero WHILE laying in kryptonite AND weakened from fighting multiple enemies for days. He comes out unfazed.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/supesnuke.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/supesnuke2.jpg

This is the kind of durability that Vader's choke hold would have to over come: Superman taking a blast equal to a million nuclear blasts
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/850/0822346hj.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3932/08222005121910pm8yp.jpg
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6301/089054127na.jpg

Oh, so Vader is this fast??? Funny how he's never shown it.
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5899/supespeed6kt.jpg

Vader has a cooler voice, and better acting. I say he wins.

Darth-Kenshin...

You keep saying that Vader will be able to react to Superman's speed, simply because he's defected laser shots before....

This is ludicrous. Anyone at all could deflect a blaster shot if they had the right tool and knew the line the laser was going to travel along.

Pre-Cog let's him know where the laser is going to be, so he doesn't need to move fast.

But this doesn't help him at ALL against Superman.

--------------------------------------

Because Superman, unlike a blaster shot, does NOT travel along a set course.

He can CHANGE his course AT WILL.

He can SEE Vader moving in SLOW MOTION.

NOTHING that Vader can do will suprise him.

-----------------------------------------

Think of it this way.


You are standing above a snail.

The snail (which has pre-cog), knows you are about to strike in a second.

Does it stand a chance of moving out of the way?

No.

It doesn't have the speed necessary.

Vader is NOT lightspeed. He can just tell the line upon which the blaster shots are going to travel.

And because the Blaster shots travel along a set line, he can position his lightsabre in front of them a second before the shot is actually released.

Superman will NOT be travelling along a set trajectory.

And any movement that Vader makes in terms of positioning his lightsabre to attack, will be seen in slow motion and avoided by Clark.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Vader is a dead man.

He is outmaneuvered and out-powered in this fight.

You're pitting a cripppled old man, with low-level telekineses and a sword....

Against someone who can move as fast - or FASTER - than light...

Who has the strength to move entire WORLDS...

Who can turn invisible and intangible....

Who can hear a whisper from across the planet... and see across the entire universe...

Someone whose heat vision is hotter than the sun and can be fired with deadly accuracy even from orbit....

Someone who cannot be hurt by any physical force.... lightsabre or otherwise.... that doesn't involve magic or kryptonite....

------------------------------------

Can you not see the absolute ludicrousness of your argument....?

Spiderman has pre-cognition that surpasses Darth Vader's.... along with TEN times the strength (at least) and far greater agility....

Do you think Spiderman would stand a chance against Superman?

Superman wins this fight 10/10.

And very very easily at that.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
1. bashblowup Wow, it just never ends. I fired nearly every bit of proof onto the floor. The puzzle fits perfectly, yet still you choose to say that Superman wouldn't be hurt, because he wouldn't. And I'm getting accussed of being a fanboy? I even go so far as to provide similar events of Supes being trounced, yet no luck. Even all of you're tones of posting are beginning to seem somewhat hostile. My gut says this thread will be locked soon..

Proof What proof? Well for one thing, he took on worse about at least a hundred folds over your proof.

2. Jedi Mind trick isn't telepathy. Ivy used kryptonite, so that Superman wouldn't be immune to the poisons of the toxin, to which the minor effects allow mind control. All of that stuff about will power, didn't help out Superman in the end. And by the way, Superman does NOT have the strongest will power in the DCU. His is not even as great as Batman's..

And still, it's not telepathy. next...

Jedi Mind trick is basically telepathy. The procedure of how SW does it might be different but it's still basically telepathy. And if Jabba the hut can resist it, what more of the despero tp-resisting superman.

3. Manipulation of natural forces fall under the definition of magic, which has beaten Superman more times than one could shake a stick at. And yet, another person who chooses to grasp for straws..

Uhmm....no it doesn't. Not unless it's SW universe where magic doesn't even exists.

4. They have always been so. Read up on the starwars books. It's stated after the ROTJ series.

Except that there wasn't unless it's canonity questionable EU or comics or SW books with different authors.

Darth-Kenshin...

You keep saying that Vader will be able to react to Superman's speed, simply because he's defected laser shots before....

This is ludicrous. Anyone at all could deflect a blaster shot if they had the right tool and knew the line the laser was going to travel along.

Pre-Cog let's him know where the laser is going to be, so he doesn't need to move fast.

But this doesn't help him at ALL against Superman.

Oh it doesn't? And let me guess why, because Supes is sooooooooooo powerful. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that Superman can beat Dr. Strange or even the LT, as he'd been immune to anything they could divine. This is all I've seen you people do, you simply tell me Supes is too powerful and that his Super speed would catch Vader by surprise, despite you agreeing to Vader being able to deflect all blaster shots by pre-cog.

--------------------------------------

Because Superman, unlike a blaster shot, does NOT travel along a set course.

He can CHANGE his course AT WILL.

He can SEE Vader moving in SLOW MOTION.

NOTHING that Vader can do will suprise him.

So just how is that relevant, when Vader can see that course ahead of time?

-----------------------------------------

Think of it this way.

You are standing above a snail.

The snail (which has pre-cog), knows you are about to strike in a second.

Does it stand a chance of moving out of the way?

No.

It doesn't have the speed necessary.

But does the snail have the ability to augment all physical abilities(force speed). I find this to be more complex than a snail versus a human being. There's also the fact of having force sight, and a mastery level of pre cog. This is more like trying to swat a fly, while having poor vision.



Can you not see the absolute ludicrousness of your argument....?

Oh yes, I see the light. How could I ever pit Vader against Superman. The guy is a god, and he can't be beaten. He always utilizes his abilities to his fullest, despite all of the times he has been made a fool of by Luthor, Batman, Toy man, you name it. All people who he could have used light speed against, yet chose not to. Superman can beat anyone or anything. He could beat the living tribunal in an arm wrestling contest, with both arms tide behind his back. How could I ever defy superman's godliness? Woe is me.

Spiderman has pre-cognition that surpasses Darth Vader's.... along with TEN times the strength (at least) and far greater agility....


Do you think Spiderman would stand a chance against Superman?

You mention Spiderman too, and then ask me if he could beat Supes? Well Superman is a god, and can beat the specter, and can destroy anything else in existance, and can match a round house kick from chuck norris, so no.

This has gotten out of hand though, don't you agree?

Man, and here I thought Batman fans were the worse.

ok my last post. sorry if i become to agressive since you're a bit new here and i'm cranky at the moment, but for the love of god, please please read a superman comic and compare it with Vader.

Its not that Vader isn't any good (in the starwars universe he is near the top) but Superman just has so many more impressive strength, speed, and durability feats. I mean aside from blocking thoes shots, he really hasn't demonstrated any real speed feats (when compared to a guy who reguarlies flys near the speed of light). Vader just doesn't have the power set needed to put Superman down (few people do). Against the more street level guys of Marvel and DC he'd do a lot better.

And still, it's not telepathy. next...

Jedi Mind trick is basically telepathy. The procedure of how SW does it might be different but it's still basically telepathy. And if Jabba the hut can resist it, what more of the despero tp-resisting superman.

Nope, it isn't telepathy. Telepathy comes from means of an extra sense developed within the mind. The force is not. Even people with low intelligence have access to telepathy within the comic book universe. The force goes by a strong mind vs a weak mind. Try again? And by the way, Jabba the hut is force resistant due to his species, not a development of the mind. Just as Watto being of a certain species is. There is even a creature within the SW universe completely immune to the force, called the ysarlmi. Supes is none of the above.



Uhmm....no it doesn't. Not unless it's SW universe where magic doesn't even exists.

Ummm, yes it does. Same properties, same mechanics.


Except that there wasn't unless it's canonity questionable EU or comics or SW books with different authors.

Different authors eh? Ok, fine, sure. Oh wait, doesn't Superman get new writers all of the time. Ooops, that's not good for Superman is it? We might as well say he can only leap a tall building, and move faster than a speeding bullet.

Yet Supes rarely even moves at the speed of light or sound, nor he is really willing to kill, or rely on tactics against an oppponent weaker than himself. THAT's why I said Darkseid would beat Vader, and maybe even Zod could do the same.

But according to the rules of this forum

"Bloodlust

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

So you have to take his superspeed into account.

Ill just say this. In the Starwars universe, The Force as a whole IS considered magic. Now with the mindtricks, its a bit iffy. Yes it can be resisted by stronger minded people or beings. However, going by the movies, only Luke and Qui-gon were resisted if my memory serves me correctly. Although everything with the force depends on whos more powerful and focused. Ani said that he couldnt mind trick Padme cause she was too strong minded, yet Palps was mind manipulating her through Ep1.

Theres no doubts that Supes is much faster than Vader, but he does posses the ability to see the near future. Can he predidct every Superman move? Probably. Will he always be able to do something about it? Ofcourse not. It all depends on what Superman does imo. Same goes for Vader.

Vaders best bet would be a force choke or crush. I dont have any doubts that the lightsaber can cut through Supes. Supermans best bet would be to speedblitz and hope it doesnt get countered. If he lands a powerfull enough hit, he ko's Vader. This fight CAN be up in the air. It all depends on what each person does.

Originally posted by TheKahn
But according to the rules of this forum

"Bloodlust

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

So you have to take his superspeed into account.

Yet Supes himself stated that he wouldn't move that fast, in fear of moving so fast as to killing his foe. And according to the other part of the rules, that is simply out of characters. Wally west doesn't clock each of his opponents from the start, because is arrogant, and like Spiderman, loves the fight to be somewhat interesting(basically, he likes to show off). Supes is not a show boater. He has different reasons for why he won't use such speeds. Reasons that come down to his personality, accepted by all of his writers. Unlike Flash's arrogance. Plus, the forum rules also don't allow an explicit amount of knowledge for the characters. Superman could know that Vader rules the galaxy, uses some mystic power called the force, and has a lightsaber. That's it.

And then we have this whole assumption that Vader's pre-cog wouldn't be good enough to predict Supes. Vader has only lost to his own son, that's all. His pre-cog has always given him the upper hand on all other occassions.

Also, there's the fact that Vader wouldn't even have to be in the same room to defeat Superman. If Superman came to challenge him, Vader would eventually see him on a holo net, and could immediately use force choke.

Vader has made babies before with his wife. Superman hasn't. Vader wins.

i cant believe this is still going on....

Originally posted by inamilist
i cant believe this is still going on....

I know it's completely and utterly pathetic with darth-kenshin hanging futilely on the notion that vader can somehow beat supes .

This is why SW is banned in this part f the forum though , you should have seen the darth vader versus doom thread they had up a while back . Alpha Centurai was going head to head with fistofthenothstar. It was awesome.

This thread is a joke and an insult to Superman.
Vader loses horribly.
Supes 10/10

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2337/supermanalex20ross2mk.jpg

it insults all supes worked for

Originally posted by grey fox
I know it's completely and utterly pathetic with darth-kenshin hanging futilely on the notion that vader can somehow beat supes .

This is why SW is banned in this part f the forum though , you should have seen the darth vader versus doom thread they had up a while back . Alpha Centurai was going head to head with fistofthenothstar. It was awesome. I find it utterly pathetic that you take something so utterly minute as a fictional fight so seriously. I was laughing my head off, assuming you guys were just joking earlier, but man, I just don't know what to say. You react as if I had danced on your parent's graves.

The force wouldn't work on Superman because it wouldn't?

You're all apparently under the thought that Superman uses his super speed during every fight, when he simply doesn't in fear of the amount of damage he could cause. And I'm being told to crack open a superman comic? Oh well, at least I didn't hear the old gambit about Superman pulling a guy into the atmosphere, to deprive him of oxygen.

Cheerio.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Batman's invincible. Plus, those lazers were in stasis. No, they were moving in 30 second repeating intervals.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I find it utterly pathetic that you take something so utterly minute as a fictional fight so seriously. I was laughing my head off, assuming you guys were just joking earlier, but man, I just don't know what to say. You react as if I had danced on your parent's graves.

The force wouldn't work on Superman because it wouldn't?

You're all apparently under the thought that Superman uses his super speed during every fight, when he simply doesn't in fear of the amount of damage he could cause. And I'm being told to crack open a superman comic? Oh well, at least I didn't hear the old gambit about Superman pulling a guy into the atmosphere, to deprive him of oxygen.

Cheerio. He could breathe at Vader and kill him.
In fact, in issue 775, he did that and collapsed one of The Elite's lungs.

Don't you see the obvious power difference?

why is this fight still being talked about explain please

Originally posted by AJ4LIFE
why is this fight still being talked about explain please No idea, I'm surprised it made it past a page. I was just adding my two cents.

Man, Superman is such an unwarrented Gary Stu.

i agree with u for once im surprised it made it past 1 reply

Originally posted by TheKahn
Well said who?-kid
Thankyouthankyouthankyou

I'd like to see an example (scan or so) that clearly shows us Darth Vaders speed. Please no freaking laser stuff, every hero does that on a daily basis (it's the first thing they learn).

Not that it matters, Superman is still a million times stronger and more durable, but out of curiosity, can somebody give me an impressive speed feat of DV ?

why is this still hapening

rofl

Ok, superman clearly has the advantage. Vader simply is at a disadvantage. It would take alot of jedis to kill superman, alot of legendary ones for that matter

Vader by himself? probably not

On the other hand, i strongly disagree with whoever said
"anyone that cannot move at the speed of light cant defeat superman"

now thats just takein it too far

Theoreticly, a solid cryptonite man catching superman at the wrong time could give him a nice hug and superman would colapse

Dark-Kenshin.

SW threads go in the SW vs. forum....even if they also have a comic character (though "mixed" threads aren't really smiled upon anywhere). I've had WAY too many problems with attemtping to allow SW in this forum (they normally turn into shouting matches where you're either very much for or against one character).

You can read the forum rules (link in my sig) for further extrapolation on this and other forum rules.

So sorry, but from now on keep things in their proper forums. Thank you.