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Each has 30 minutes prep time...
The battle takes place in Latveria near Doom's castle...
Who wins in an all-out battle between the Lord of Latveria and the Manhunter from Mars...??? This is gonna be good.....

30 minutes prep time........i'll wait for other people's op but i'm currently leaning towards doom because of all the contraption and crazy gizmos he have stacked on latveria.

30 minutes isn't enough prep for someone like Doom to take down someone like Martian Manhunter, who can walk through most of Latveria's usual defenses.

He doesn't need that much prep since he's on his turf and if it's near the castle, he has access to his other equipment he created in the past.

Does he have something to hit Manhunter even while phased?

Manhunter wins this.

Originally posted by demigawd
Does he have something to hit Manhunter even while phased?

most likely. He also has that power nullifier sort of machinery.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
most likely. He also has that power nullifier sort of machinery.

He had to trick Surfer into going to a room by having a peaceful conversation with him. That's a big stretch that he'd do all of that to MM in this battle...it wouldn't be a battle, then.

I'm not talking about the equipment he had against surfer.

Oh my bad. What equipment were you referring to? From which storyline?

how about the creature that attacked right before Hyperstorm kidnapped Reed and Doom? He was apparently vastly more powerful than a Surfer type and Doom had no prep for it. MM is now vastly more powerful than Surfer eh? I think this might be another demonstration of Doom getting no respect combined with people not knowing anything about him.

Maritan Manhunter phases through any of dooms attempts at defence and Mind-rapes him .

Doom fries him with magic while a thousand Doombots stand in line and get slaughtered.

bump

Originally posted by grey fox
Maritan Manhunter phases through any of dooms attempts at defence and Mind-rapes him .
Doom probably has built in deffences in his suit.
Doom is also a wielder of powerful magic, he can give Manhunter a fight without prep.
Also does Man Hunter still has weakness to fire?

Jon Jonnzz wins this. Once John phases thru Dooms defenses he then reads Dooms mind and defeats him.

Current Jon? Jon wins

Classic Jon? Doom makes a big ass camp fire ftw

I don't see what Doom could make in 30 minutes that would be harmful to MM in his phased state.

Phasing+Super Speed means that he can get right up close and personal with Doom very quickly (past all his defenses), then mindrape ftw.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I don't see what Doom could make in 30 minutes that would be harmful to MM in his phased state.

Phasing+Super Speed means that he can get right up close and personal with Doom very quickly (past all his defenses), then mindrape ftw.

You know with a guy as powerful as the Martian Manhunter, who the hell thought a good idea for a weakness would be fire?

I'm guessing DC just wanted a reason for Batman to be able to beat him

dr doom for the win. with thirty minutes against mm i know he will win this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
dr doom for the win. with thirty minutes against mm i know he will win this.

What do the rest of you think?

I hate Quan, but Doom WILL have his hands full prepping for the Martian. I woulnd't put it past him to pull out a win though. And he is damn good with magic, so he's got a good shot of taking this one.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I hate Quan, but Doom WILL have his hands full prepping for the Martian. I woulnd't put it past him to pull out a win though. And he is damn good with magic, so he's got a good shot of taking this one. keep hating me it makes me smile. it always has.

anyways dr doom would break mm in two with prep. mm got bitchslapped by black adam with help. dr doom took out beyonder with prep. doom wins this all day.

Originally posted by quanchi112
keep hating me it makes me smile. it always has.

anyways dr doom would break mm in two with prep. mm got bitchslapped by black adam with help. dr doom took out beyonder with prep. doom wins this all day.

I'd have to agree. Doom has come up against beings with MM's strength, MM's speed, and Intangibility before. Hell, Doctor Doom has fought every A list hero that exists in marvel and come out on top. There isn't a skill MM could come up with that Doom hasn't encountered in some form.

he's got incredibly high level tech, powerstealing weapons, and he's still earth's #2 sorcerer. That much magic is practically a deus-ex-machina. What CANT you do with it?

Consider also that doom can body-switch when he feels he's at a disadvantage. It's not a power he uses often, but it IS in his power set.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I'd have to agree. Doom has come up against beings with MM's strength, MM's speed, and Intangibility before. Hell, Doctor Doom has fought every A list hero that exists in marvel and come out on top. There isn't a skill MM could come up with that Doom hasn't encountered in some form.

he's got incredibly high level tech, powerstealing weapons, and he's still earth's #2 sorcerer. That much magic is practically a deus-ex-machina. What CANT you do with it?

Consider also that doom can body-switch when he feels he's at a disadvantage. It's not a power he uses often, but it IS in his power set.

I haven't been keeping up to date with Jonn lately, although I noticed that he no longer hides what he really looks like. The old Jonn could only sustain near Superman level feats of strength for 2 minutes, has he changed so drastically? By the way I vote for Doom, he's just so smart that I wouldn't put it past him to not only beat Jonn but enslave the rest of the JLA, while stealing their powers.

Doom wins.
something to disrupt MM's molecules in their phased state, like a soundwave disturbing their frequencies.

then followed up with some powerful magic to turn MM into a trinket for his ring finger.

First of all, you all SERIOUSLY overestimate the length of time that 30 minutes covers, and Doom's genious. That's not to say he isn't brilliant, but you act like he could take down the world with a day of prep.

Ha.

Also, in his intangible state, MM doesn't HAVE any molecules. His entire body is shunted to another dimension.

Thirdly, I'd like to see if Doom has EVER built defenses competent enough to overcome MM's level of telepathy.

welll doctor doom is the second in line to the tittle of sorccoror supreeme i do belive. so the question is is mm weak against magic i am aware that he weak against fire but does this expand to magically stuff.. as far asi see isnt mm a jack of all trades but a master of non of them,..... this is his weaknesss as mutch as it is his strengh.

Originally posted by quanchi112
keep hating me it makes me smile. it always has.

anyways dr doom would break mm in two with prep. mm got bitchslapped by black adam with help. dr doom took out beyonder with prep. doom wins this all day.
What people fail to take into consideration is Doom used Galactus' technology to steal the chain of powers.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
First of all, you all SERIOUSLY overestimate the length of time that 30 minutes covers, and Doom's genious. That's not to say he isn't brilliant, but you act like he could take down the world with a day of prep.

Ha.

Also, in his intangible state, MM doesn't HAVE any molecules. His entire body is shunted to another dimension.

Thirdly, I'd like to see if Doom has EVER built defenses competent enough to overcome MM's level of telepathy. I don't remember the amount of time Doom had in Secret Wars, but he basically punked Galactus out of all his Worldship energy with hours worth of prep. I personally find that harder than taking down the world with a day of prep. I don't think the prep necessary to punk Martian Manhunter would even come close.

If this is some Macguyver scenario where Doom is stuck with nothing and has a tube of toothpaste and has to start from scratch, yes it'd be a b1tch. But Doom always has his Doombots, always has his tech around and preparing for J'onn probably wouldn't take much. He'd probably switch stuff he's already built into his armor and bring his Doombots online and that's it. Neural scrambler in his helmet for protection, stolen and modified from the Onslaught fight, check. Phase inhibitor culled from examining Vision's and Kitty Pryde's intangibility, check. Increase forcefield power reserves by a factor of 10, check. Dust off some demonic spellbook in case shyt happens, check.

Someone gives Batman 30 minutes of prep and nobody would argue he could give Superman a run for his money. But give Dr. Doom 30 minutes of prep with all the tech he already has at his disposal and people actually believe he gets punked by J'onn? Doom's taken out the entire FF, Terrax, Silver Surfer, Magus, Galactus, classic Beyonder and still you doubt Doom? Oi vey. Surprise ending for WWH? Doom comes in and shows everyone how it's f'ing done. Nuff said.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't remember the amount of time Doom had in Secret Wars, but he basically punked Galactus out of all his Worldship energy with hours worth of prep. I personally find that harder than taking down the world with a day of prep. I don't think the prep necessary to punk Martian Manhunter would even come close. IIRC, he had plenty more then half an hour... and, despite that, Doom might be big and bad, but I've seen him beaten before, by people who can't move half as fast, aren't half as strong, don't have nearly the versatility, or don't have nearly the level of telepathy that J'onn possesses... J'onn has all of that, and Doom ONLY has half an hour. Law of averages.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If this is some Macguyver scenario where Doom is stuck with nothing and has a tube of toothpaste and has to start from scratch, yes it'd be a b1tch. But Doom always has his Doombots, always has his tech around and preparing for J'onn probably wouldn't take much. He'd probably switch stuff he's already built into his armor and bring his Doombots online and that's it. Neural scrambler in his helmet for protection, stolen and modified from the Onslaught fight, check. Phase inhibitor culled from examining Vision's and Kitty Pryde's intangibility, check. Increase forcefield power reserves by a factor of 10, check. Dust off some demonic spellbook in case shyt happens, check. And what of that would seriously inhibit J'onn? Doombots? J'onn moves too fast to even register... Tech? Wanna specify?... Neural scrambler? J'onn has a truckload of other ways to take Doom down... Phasing inhibitor? Weren't you listening? Martian's method of phasing isn't ANYTHING like those two. It is in fact much superior, and I have yet to see someone in this thread offer an idea for how Doom could even harm MM while like that.

As for force fields and spell books... MM phases through the former, and he'll move too fast for the latter to be of any consequence.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Someone gives Batman 30 minutes of prep and nobody would argue he could give Superman a run for his money. But give Dr. Doom 30 minutes of prep with all the tech he already has at his disposal and people actually believe he gets punked by J'onn? I would give arguments for Superman... regardless, the only way Batman would perform such a task is by utilizing tech made by alien races who make earth (and Doom, most of the time) look like it's in the stone age. So that point is null.

J'onn is actually harder to prep for then Supes, IMO, because of his versatility. Many more options to f*ck you over.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom's taken out the entire FF, Terrax, Silver Surfer, Magus, Galactus, classic Beyonder and still you doubt Doom? Oi vey. Surprise ending for WWH? Doom comes in and shows everyone how it's f'ing done. He's taken them down with much more prep then half an hour, and in some cases, with tech that he doesn't possess here. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Nuff said.
God I hate that phrase. It's always used by people to make it seem like they've actually established something.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
IIRC, he had plenty more then half an hour... and, despite that, Doom might be big and bad, but I've seen him beaten before, by people who can't move half as fast, aren't half as strong, don't have nearly the versatility, or don't have nearly the level of telepathy that J'onn possesses... J'onn has all of that, and Doom ONLY has half an hour. Law of averages.Law of averages says that with the foes and odds Doom has faced before, J'onn is beneath Doom's notice.
Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
And what of that would seriously inhibit J'onn? Doombots? J'onn moves too fast to even register... Tech? Wanna specify?... Neural scrambler? J'onn has a truckload of other ways to take Doom down... Phasing inhibitor? Weren't you listening? Martian's method of phasing isn't ANYTHING like those two. It is in fact much superior, and I have yet to see someone in this thread offer an idea for how Doom could even harm MM while like that.

As for force fields and spell books... MM phases through the former, and he'll move too fast for the latter to be of any consequence.
You want to lay down absolutes by saying Doom couldn't find a way around J'onn's phasing without backing it up, fine. No, really. I'll accept it as per stipulation. I'll concede that nobody can ever disrupt J'onn's intangibility through scientific means. Doesn't matter, Doom's got magic. I can deal in absolutes also. Doom uses magic to f*ck with him. Magic messes with astral forms, intangibility and all sorts of goodness. J'onn is not immune to magic and speed is inconsequential. Binding spells aren't like webshooters. They don't chase foes around, they just zap em instantaneously. I've never seen anyone dodge the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak or other containment spells. They just pop instanteously. So stuff the intangibility/speed. Besides, Superman's been zapped by magic so often I don't even understand why I'm arguing this point.
Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
I would give arguments for Superman... regardless, the only way Batman would perform such a task is by utilizing tech made by alien races who make earth (and Doom, most of the time) look like it's in the stone age. So that point is null.

J'onn is actually harder to prep for then Supes, IMO, because of his versatility. Many more options to f*ck you over.
He's taken them down with much more prep then half an hour, and in some cases, with tech that he doesn't possess here.
God I hate that phrase. It's always used by people to make it seem like they've actually established something. 1. Batman has fought off Superman with conventional tech, tactics and strategy. While alien tech and mother boxes and all that crap would make it easier, Batman has been forced to and made due with conventional tech against Superman.
2. Considering that Doom has built machines that make aliens, otherwordly beings, cosmic abstracts and future versions of themselves look like idiots on a daily basis, I don't see how you can argue that Doom would be a poor man's Batman. Doom's made transdimensional portals into Hell, the only working time machine in Marvel Earth, Power Cosmic transferrence devices (after it baffled the crap out of Annihilus and Thanos for half the 'Annihilation' story arc) and you think Doom would be outshined by alien tech or Batman? You tell me given the amount of time and resources Doom had, would Batman have been able to steal Galactus' Worldship energy? Or punk the Silver Surfer like Doom did? Or come in second place during the contest for Sorcerer Supreme? Or beat Mephisto in his own realm? Or subdue the Magus who had a near complete Infinity Gauntlet?

J'onn's certainly a match, Superman says so himself. J'onn could surprise Doom too mid-battle, might get a few wins if Doom underestimates him (his greatest weakness is his vainglorious pride). But Doom has faced down bigger, badder, more versatile, hell... he's faced so-called omnipotent beings before. Based on the law of averages which you like to quote, J'onn would sit up at the 30 minute mark, wave a white flag as the start bell is rung and sit his green butt down. Don't argue with me that Doom has never faced anyone like J'onn before. He's faced worse on a weekly basis. Show me where J'onn has faced someone like Doom before and maybe you might convince me that this J'onn doesn't get curbstomped.

EDIT: Oh yeah and btw, til you start doing more than just spouting off powersets, each of which I've countered with a method that Doom can and has in the past utilized to nullify/counter such powers: Nuff said.

Doom loses. seriously wayyy too many people overestimate what Doom can do in thirty minutes. first of all he'd have to think of a plan which will time. and by the time he can get near enough to finish his prep would be done. MM wins. he really doesn't have any extremely blatant weaknesses to exploit and he's no idiot either. he could bring Martian tech if he needed to and would own Doom's tech. in fact he could bypass any of Doom's defenses with a Martian vehicle that could enter the Phantom Zone and reenter earth wherever he wanted to and thereby bypass any defense Doom could cook up in only 30 minutes. People act like he beats Galactus or Silver Surfer with 10 minutes. No he probably needs days to make this stuff.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Doom loses. seriously wayyy too many people overestimate what Doom can do in thirty minutes. first of all he'd have to think of a plan which will time. and by the time he can get near enough to finish his prep would be done. MM wins. he really doesn't have any extremely blatant weaknesses to exploit and he's no idiot either. he could bring Martian tech if he needed to and would own Doom's tech. in fact he could bypass any of Doom's defenses with a Martian vehicle that could enter the Phantom Zone and reenter earth wherever he wanted to and thereby bypass any defense Doom could cook up in only 30 minutes. People act like he beats Galactus or Silver Surfer with 10 minutes. No he probably needs days to make this stuff. mm is no where near or even in the same league as the silver surfer or galactus. doom would own him all day and all night. 10 for 10. mm would need some jla backup and fast.

Originally posted by quanchi112
mm is no where near or even in the same league as the silver surfer or galactus. doom would own him all day and all night. 10 for 10. mm would need some jla backup and fast. the thing is they have completely different powers and sources to their power. Its not like he can just make a tiny change to his SS tech and then expect it to work on MM. besides Doom didn't just come up with that tech out of nowhere it took him days of planning and making to probably do that. then theres the fact that MM is no idiot and has tech that more advanced that Doom's.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
the thing is they have completely different powers and sources to their power. Its not like he can just make a tiny change to his SS tech and then expect it to work on MM. besides Doom didn't just come up with that tech out of nowhere it took him days of planning and making to probably do that. then theres the fact that MM is no idiot and has tech that more advanced that Doom's. doom is no slouch in combat either. he was kicking the magus's ass in infinity war straight up. dont underestimate the guy who stole classic beyonders powers. mm is a joke to doom.

MM is no joke. Doom would win if he had a week of prep. but 30 minutes is hardly anytime to come up with any substantial defenses against MM. his powers come from his martian physiology which Doom has no knowledge or understanding of and he wouldn't be able to nullify any of MM's powers besides maybe telepathy.Besidesl like i said MM has tech that would enable him to bypass all of Doom's little defenses by shunting himself into the PZ and coming back to the regular dimension whereever he wants. Mm win a majority.

Doom casts the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak on J'onn. J'onn tries to break out with strength and fails, tries to shapeshift his way out and fails, tries to phase through them and fails. Then Doom uses his "Go to Hell" gun on J'onn and lets Mephisto anally rape him.

Or Doom could just magically transfer his mind and J'onn's.

Or Doom could go back into time with his time machine and make sure J'onn is never born.

Or Doom can be a total jerk, use his Latverians as cannon fodder, forcing J'onn to save them by going solid and Doom whacks the crap out of him then. After all Latverians live to serve Doom.

This is random crap off the top of my head. Doom is far more cunning and would probably come up with more devious and dastardly plots. Don't underestimate Doom. He doesn't need defenses, his offense and cunning undoes any versatility J'onn can muster. You tell me wth is J'onn gonna do when Doom decides to use magic on his Martian butt?

Doom takes the majority here. People have to remember that Doom's tech isn't just limited to Earth based technology either, he's also mastered the technology of the Ovoids and the Microverse, and has shown some degree of skill with the tech of the Watcher's and Galactus as well. He's already got the blueprints and prototypes of his best inventions on hand so he wouldn't have to come up with anything new for the occasion unless he felt it was necessary. MM could win a few if Doom got to cocky, but Doom should probably pull 6-7/10.

Magic ftw

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Law of averages says that with the foes and odds Doom has faced before, J'onn is beneath Doom's notice. Not at all.

If the majority of Doom's continuity consisted of his high showings, in which he recieved similair prep time as he has here... you may have a point.

However it's not like that. Not at all.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You want to lay down absolutes by saying Doom couldn't find a way around J'onn's phasing without backing it up, fine. No, really. I'll accept it as per stipulation. I'll concede that nobody can ever disrupt J'onn's intangibility through scientific means. Doesn't matter, Doom's got magic. I can deal in absolutes also. Doom uses magic to f*ck with him. Magic messes with astral forms, intangibility and all sorts of goodness. J'onn is not immune to magic and speed is inconsequential. Binding spells aren't like webshooters. They don't chase foes around, they just zap em instantaneously. I've never seen anyone dodge the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak or other containment spells. They just pop instanteously. So stuff the intangibility/speed. Besides, Superman's been zapped by magic so often I don't even understand why I'm arguing this point.

1. Doom can't cast "binding spells" during prep time, so he would have to do so once the battle starts. However, due to J'onn's superior speed (and that's a major understatement), Doom would barely have registered the battle before J'onn went intangible, right through his defenses, and mindraped him.

2. Doom, in order to hurt J'onn's intangible form, would have to logically find the exact dimension his body was in, and hurt it, and somehow cause it to return to ours, before J'onn tore him in two.

Oopsies.

3. Superman didn't have his mass shunted to a seperate dimension...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1. Batman has fought off Superman with conventional tech, tactics and strategy. While alien tech and mother boxes and all that crap would make it easier, Batman has been forced to and made due with conventional tech against Superman. Batman has also batkicked the Spectre across the face.

PIS is nothing new to the Dark Knight.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2. Considering that Doom has built machines that make aliens, otherwordly beings, cosmic abstracts and future versions of themselves look like idiots on a daily basis, I don't see how you can argue that Doom would be a poor man's Batman. Doom's made transdimensional portals into Hell, the only working time machine in Marvel Earth, Power Cosmic transferrence devices (after it baffled the crap out of Annihilus and Thanos for half the 'Annihilation' story arc) and you think Doom would be outshined by alien tech or Batman? You tell me given the amount of time and resources Doom had, would Batman have been able to steal Galactus' Worldship energy? Or punk the Silver Surfer like Doom did? Or come in second place during the contest for Sorcerer Supreme? Or beat Mephisto in his own realm? Or subdue the Magus who had a near complete Infinity Gauntlet? Hey, Doom is certainly more impressive.

Batman just has access to stuff that, most of the time, makes Doom's stuff look like lego blocks and tonka trucks.

I never made a comment about Doom being unimpressive.

Reading comprehension ftw.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
J'onn's certainly a match, Superman says so himself. J'onn could surprise Doom too mid-battle, might get a few wins if Doom underestimates him (his greatest weakness is his vainglorious pride). But Doom has faced down bigger, badder, more versatile, hell... he's faced so-called omnipotent beings before. Based on the law of averages which you like to quote, J'onn would sit up at the 30 minute mark, wave a white flag as the start bell is rung and sit his green butt down. Don't argue with me that Doom has never faced anyone like J'onn before. He's faced worse on a weekly basis. Show me where J'onn has faced someone like Doom before and maybe you might convince me that this J'onn doesn't get curbstomped.J'onn won't need to surprise anyone... the martian has raced around the world in the time it took someone to take a breath. Doom won't know wtf hit him.

J'onn has made gods fall asleep with TP alone... Doom really doesn't stand a chance.

And, if you firmly believe that, based on law of averages, Doom >>>>> J'onn, you don't know J'onn, or Doom. At all.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
EDIT: Oh yeah and btw, til you start doing more than just spouting off powersets, each of which I've countered with a method that Doom can and has in the past utilized to nullify/counter such powers: Nuff said. Fair enough.

Oh yeah and btw, til you show some method of reasonable debating, and don't just spout off scenarios that had entirely different circumstances, involving different resources, and MUCH more prep, and actually post something worthwhile: I'll continue to think you're a dumbass.

doped

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom casts the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak on J'onn. J'onn tries to break out with strength and fails, tries to shapeshift his way out and fails, tries to phase through them and fails. Then Doom uses his "Go to Hell" gun on J'onn and lets Mephisto anally rape him.

Or Doom could just magically transfer his mind and J'onn's.

Or Doom could go back into time with his time machine and make sure J'onn is never born.

Or Doom can be a total jerk, use his Latverians as cannon fodder, forcing J'onn to save them by going solid and Doom whacks the crap out of him then. After all Latverians live to serve Doom.

This is random crap off the top of my head. Doom is far more cunning and would probably come up with more devious and dastardly plots. Don't underestimate Doom. He doesn't need defenses, his offense and cunning undoes any versatility J'onn can muster. You tell me wth is J'onn gonna do when Doom decides to use magic on his Martian butt?


cannon fodder... now thats funny.
seriously, if martians are all so hot, how come their all dead? doom takes this all day every day and twice on sundays

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
cannon fodder... now thats funny.
seriously, if martians are all so hot, how come their all dead? doom takes this all day every day and twice on sundays well...most were killed by a fire telepathic plague caused by Jonn's brother. then Jonn as Fernus, a being that was owning the JLA like they were cannon fodder, kills the White Martians, then the US govt uses Martian tech to kill the rest. except for the one in the TT.

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
2. Doom, in order to hurt J'onn's intangible form, would have to logically find the exact dimension his body was in, and hurt it, and somehow cause it to return to ours, before J'onn tore him in two.

Oopsies.

In most cases (more often than his molecules shunting to another dimension), when J'onn is "intangible," his body's frequency is still vibrating in this dimension, thus he still has atomic resonance.

If Doom could match that frequency with his powers, he could harm MM.

Though, could Doom do that before J'onn phases a hand through him? No, probably not.

mm has no chance of surviving this. dr doom is simply to good with prep and he wouldnt need more than 10 minutes to take out this martian.

Originally posted by batdude123
In most cases (more often than his molecules shunting to another dimension), when J'onn is "intangible," his body's frequency is still vibrating in this dimension, thus he still has atomic resonance.

If Doom could match that frequency with his powers, he could harm MM.

Though, could Doom do that before J'onn phases a hand through him? No, probably not. Oh yeh.

Originally posted by Grimm22
You know with a guy as powerful as the Martian Manhunter, who the hell thought a good idea for a weakness would be fire?

I'm guessing DC just wanted a reason for Batman to be able to beat him



You're probably right!