Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins? Although most people have agreed, that Kun could take NJO Luke, but DN is a fair bit more powerful, so whats your thought on this fight?

I would say DN Luke, because even NJO Luke was already a force G-d... But I'll let IKC explain why Luke won't win..

Kun would win probably take this. Oh, and why do you go "g-d" instead of just saying god?

Because I'm religious

That rexplains a lot.

Huh? You bore Faroth!

Luke.

Exar Kun.

Luke.

It'd be close and long but i think luke would pull out with teh win.

Yea if not NJO Luke then definitely DN Luke

No. Not at all.

Of the many factors netting Kun the victory, the most important are sith magic and his artifacts.

IKC, I've also read somewhere that NJO Luke obtained some kind of crystal on Mimban or something, it was supposed to be the most powerful crystal in the galaxy that increased his force powers tenfold. The odds seemed stacked heavily against Kun.

Not to mention the fact that it's mentioned in one of those books that NJO or DN Luke is the greatest force user the galaxy has ever seen, but of course I don't have the quote to back it up so take it for what it's worth

Well, considering people think that Ragnos can take both DN Luke and NJO Luke, i do believe that Kun can take DN Luke, unless one of you here can explain to me, the extent of DN Luke's power

Well like I said that quote is in one of those series, and after looking through a lot of forums the general Consensus is that NJO/DN Luke is more powerful than anybody that has ever existed with the exception of Ragnos. They both represent the strongest on both sides of the force.

Ah yes, because Splinter of the Mind's Eye is the highest order of canon, especially because it was a work written before the Empire Strikes Back came out and describes a lightsaber duel between Luke and Vader. *rolls eyes*

So where'd the Kaiburr crystal go, huh? What's that? It's bunk?

And your quote is not evidence, especially since you can't seem to source it. No incarnation of Luke is at Kun's level.

How the hell is Luke going to resist Sith spells that he's never even heard of?

IKC if you read I said I obviously can't use it as evidence because I don't know where it's from. I know it is from the NJO series or the DN series. I also know you love Kun but there ARE sith lords/jedis that are more powerful than him, albeit very few..

The only one I'd say that we know definitively to be more powerful than Kun is Marka Ragnos.

Others we can only speculate on. The best candidate is Naga Sadow.

And why can we not say DN/NJO Luke is? That whole "Crystal" deal was written in NJO I believe, so why wouldn't it be considered canon?

No, the crystal was written in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I already showed you why Splinter is sketchy as all hell in the other thread.

And we can't say Luke is because the likely outcome of their battle is an amulet blast or saber pwnage.

Though IKC may favour Kun, his arguments are valid, TDTD can you supply some form of information on DN Luke's power.

IKC, but we cant really say Kun isnt more powerful that Sadow, since Kun learned most of his amazing force powers from Sadow, and during the wars earlier, some of the knowledge may have been lost

Yes, Luke may be the strongest force Users on the Light side, but it doesnt mean people like the Ancient Sith, Nadd and Kun, couldn't take him..i actually believe that all the Sith from Kun and before could take DN and NJO Luke...

Its my opinion, and most likely a correctly assumed fact, that Kun's potential is a fair bit above Luke's, since Luke, at the age of 50 and over realised his true potential, whereas Kun, died before he could achieve is...

Even then, Kun's abilities and feats surpass Luke's, and if Luke did have a kaiburr Crystal, that would degrade his power, since he is using a force amplifier to enhance strength...

Remember that Kun, as a apprentice bested one of the most Revered Jedi master, Vodo...a feat that Luke never did...the best Luke did as an apprentice was, get his hand sliced off in ESB, and beat his father, when his father was esstantially not trying to kill him.

I wasn't arguing I was asking for information on DN Luke's power because out of all the forums I've been to everyone has agreed that DN/NJO Luke is greater than everyone besides Ragnos.. And yes if he had the crystal it would make it a force enhancer. It's the same when Kun had Sadow's amulet..

Let's not dip into feat wars, woot.

And I believe the outcome of a battle between Naga Sadow and Exar Kun to be up in the air. We don't know exactly how much Exar learned from the notes of Sadow. There's no conclusive proof for either side.

As for the kaiburr crystal, it would be permissible in a fight if it were canon that Luke has it. I'd like some evidence from NJO that he actually does have it.

As for your assumption that Kun's potential is greater than displayed, that's probably accurate. He lived a relatively short life.

tdtd:

Other than allowing Kun to shoot blasts, we don't know what Sadow's amulet does. Therefore, to say that it boosts his power in the Force is unsupported.

Ok yea I agree with that, next stop is to read the NJO/DN Novels for more information.

some good points there...

and excuse me if i entered into feat wars, but wasnt Kun said to be Vodo's most formiadable student ever? Before he attainted any of his sith amulets and his embrace of the darkside?

Like i said before the crystal, IF Luke had it, that would make him seem weaker than if he didn't, so by that tdtd is defeating himself by saying that Luke is stronger than Kun..

Yes, Vodo proclaimed Kun as the "most formidable student (he) has ever had." It's a good testament to his power, especially since he was only a Jedi apprentice at the time.

As for the crystal, I don't think Luke canonically has it.

The Kaiburr Crystal? Luke has it. I know you guys hate that book, but it's canon as far as EU is concerned as it doesn't contradict anything else. And it's in the NEGtC.

an off topic question, what exactly does the Kaiburr Crystal do?

Glentract, you don't make canon. Chronologies do not create canon.

Splinter of the Mind's Eye is hardly canon. It directly contradicts the movies and it begs the question: where the hell did the crystal go, then? Why didn't Luke just tote it around at all times? Why isn't it mentioned anywhere else? Could it be perhaps that it was in the first, poorly-planned work of EU and inconveniently placed between ANH and ESB, when people didn't even know if Vader was still alive?

To answer your question, woot, it increases Force power.

Woot, I'm not defeating myself with the argument that if Luke had the crystal it would make him seem weaker, because then I can say the same thing about Kun before he had Sadow's amulet.

Originally posted by tdtd
Woot, I'm not defeating myself with the argument that if Luke had the crystal it would make him seem weaker, because then I can say the same thing about Kun before he had Sadow's amulet.

Yet Kun was already recognised by Vodo as his most formaidable student he had ever had, and having trained jedi for some centuries, it would mean something, whereas Luke, was not stated to have any amazing abilities and as a apprentice he was defeated numerous times, by a Sithlord whom had no intention to ever kill him, rather to turn him to the darkside..

yea and Luke as a young kid with absolutely no training was feared by the Emperor which says a lot about his potential.. I don't understand your point?

It's not stated that Palpatine feared him.

It is stated in the novels, not to mention he tells Vader that Skywalker must not become a jedi, he is fearful of his power.

To say that because the Emperor realizes a potential threat means he fears that threat is a stretch and a half. He didn't fear Luke, he feared what Luke could become and represent.

Oh? Sidious feared anyone who could threaten his rule, and naturally, i dont doubt Sidious could see that Vader would betray him as soon as he had that power, so saying if Luke and Vader united, they would pose a problem for Sidious.

Kun was accepted by the Most powerful of the Most powerful, Marka Ragnos, what does that say?

The Dark Lord of the Ancient Sith, who above all valued power and strength, accepting Kun as a Dark Lord of the Sith

or

A Dark Lord of the Sith, who through political means, took over the senate, and through Vader and the clones, defeated the PT Jedi, who were not warlike, and were generally unprepared for any Sith threat..

Originally posted by tdtd
It is stated in the novels, not to mention he tells Vader that Skywalker must not become a jedi, he is fearful of his power.

Or it simply could be, another way of using Vader to turn Luke to the darkside...

That plus there's no evidence that Sidious learned Sith magic, either. I've debated this already and I'm weary of it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

There you go.

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, you don't make canon. Chronologies do not create canon.

Splinter of the Mind's Eye is hardly canon. It directly contradicts the movies and it begs the question: where the hell did the crystal go, then? Why didn't Luke just tote it around at all times? Why isn't it mentioned anywhere else? Could it be perhaps that it was in the first, poorly-planned work of EU and inconveniently placed between ANH and ESB, when people didn't even know if Vader was still alive?

To answer your question, woot, it increases Force power.

You don't make canon either. You can't just declare whatever you want non-canon. Chronologies are officially stated as the next best thing after the top level of canon. They are on the same level with any novel or comic. Oh, and the reason Luke wasn't showing if off to everyone was because its power diminished the farther he went from the Temple of Pomojema.

In anycase, I don't see why it matters one way of the other. Luke has still done what he did. In Dark Nest, Luke was able to defeat a force user who had the power of an entire species to draw on, or in otherwords, several times more then DE Sidious.

Kun was accepted by the Most powerful of the Most powerful, Marka Ragnos, what does that say?

The Dark Lord of the Ancient Sith, who above all valued power and strength, accepting Kun as a Dark Lord of the Sith

DE Sidious was accepted by them too, as Luke defeated someone who had several times more power to draw off of.

No, Glentract. They're not.



Chronologies are nowhere in there. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Kun tools him.

Oh please, Glentract. Many elements of DE have been retconned. According to DE, the Sith Empire only stretched back two thousand years BBY. Ergo, they didn't even write in Ragnos as having existed.

Quit making Lightsnake arguments.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

Seems to me that since the NEGtC has the Lucasbooks stamp on the back, your ideas that they aren't canon are out the window.

Oh please, Glentract. Many elements of DE have been retconned. According to DE, the Sith Empire only stretched back two thousand years BBY. Ergo, they didn't even write in Ragnos as having existed.

Quit making Lightsnake arguments.

The Sith Empire in one form did only extend back to 2000 B.B.Y.
And it says that he was accepted by the Sith. That would include Ragnos even if they hadn't been written about. Would you try and argue that ANH Obi-wan didn't know about Qui-gon as he didn't exist at that time?

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).


And so does TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Was that written by Lucas? Did it come directly from George Lucas?

Guess what? That doesn't mean it was written by Geoge Lucas, nitwit. The Chronology wasn't written by Lucas. Ergo, it cannot create canon. Quod erat demonstrandum.



And according to DE that's the only Sith empire that ever existed. Ergo, DE is wrong and is retconned by TOTJ.



No, that does not include Ragnos, especially since DE was written before his character existed and any idea of the ancient Sith as we knew them existed at all. It. Has. Been. Retconned.

Maybe some spirits accepted him, but nobody you can name. QED.

Originally posted by IKC
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas ( including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).


And so does TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Was that written by Lucas? Did it come directly from George Lucas?

Guess what? That doesn't mean it was written by Geoge Lucas, nitwit. The Chronology wasn't written by Lucas. Ergo, it cannot create canon. Quod erat demonstrandum.

And you're calling me a nitwit? You apparently failed to see the part where it says that anything coming from his production department is canon too. Good job.

TOTJ is made by Dark Horse, not a Lucas company. Therefor, it is a lower level of canon then the Essential Guides.

And according to DE that's the only Sith empire that ever existed. Ergo, DE is wrong and is retconned by TOTJ.

What is it that makes you think that TOTJ is a higher level of canon then DE? And you're the man who can scan, lets see where it says that the one and only Sith Empire has only been around for 2000 years.

No, that does not include Ragnos, especially since DE was written before his character existed and any idea of the ancient Sith as we knew them existed at all. It. Has. Been. Retconned.

Maybe some spirits accepted him, but nobody you can name. QED.

Retconned by what? Even if a minor detail is wrong, that doesn't mean the entire series no longer exist.

And we do know it was Ancient Sith who accepted him and we do know that Ragnos was in charge of the Ancient Sith spirit people. Who else would it have been?

His production department does not write the reference books either. Good job not knowing what a movie production department is.

And yes, I was.



Except the book I cited has the Lucasbooks seal on the back. By your stupid standards, it is G-Canon.



Because TOTJ was written after DE and retconned it. That's why.

Look at the many Lightsnake threads for evidence that DE was written under the assumption that the only Sith Empire existed only two thousand years ago.



That detail (as well as the hyperbolic statements relating to Sidious/Luke's power), has been retconned by the existence of TOTJ.



We only know that some ancient Sith accepted him. Your assumption that Ragnos still lords over their spirits is ridiculous, especially since Freedon Nadd's goes against the will of Ragnos by declaring Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy.

Ragnos hasn't done everything that the ancient Sith are responsible for, ergo you cannot prove that Ragnos did shit relating to Sidious.

Originally posted by IKC
His production department does not write the reference books either. Good job not knowing what a movie production department is.

And yes, I was.

Where exactly does it say that it's only from the movie department? Lucasbooks is part of his corporation, and therefor G-canon.

Originally posted by IKC
Except the book I cited has the Lucasbooks seal on the back. By your stupid standards, it is G-Canon.

TOTJ has the Dark Horse seal, not the Lucasbooks seal. Dark Horse isn't a Lucas corporation, therefor it is just as canon as any other piece of literature.

Originally posted by IKC
Because TOTJ was written after DE and retconned it. That's why.

Just because something comes after, it is canon above everything before it?

If thats the case, then Splinter of the Minds Eye is a higher level of canon then DE or TOTJ as is came out in comic book form after both TOTJ and DE.

And incase you never noticed, there are some elements from Splinter of the Minds Eye that were used in EP1, such as SotME said that Vader new the proper command codes to shut C-3PO off. No one new why until ep1 where we found out that Anakin built him(just thought that was a nice piece of trivia for you).

Originally posted by IKC
Look at the many Lightsnake threads for evidence that DE was written under the assumption that the only Sith Empire existed only two thousand years ago.

Lightsnake was arguing that the Ancient Sith Empire had only been around for 2000 years before Ragnos. I believe it was Nai who was arguing otherwise(one of the few times Lightsnake was actually right about something).

Originally posted by IKC
That detail (as well as the hyperbolic statements relating to Sidious/Luke's power), has been retconned by the existence of TOTJ.

And TOTJ has been retconned by Splinter of the Minds Eye according to your line of thinking.

How exactly did TOTJ retcon DE? You still haven't shown that.

Originally posted by IKC
We only know that some ancient Sith accepted him. Your assumption that Ragnos still lords over their spirits is ridiculous, especially since Freedon Nadd's goes against the will of Ragnos by declaring Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy.

Wait, does the TOTJ comics go against themself? I seem to remember Exar destroying Nadd's spirit in the comics. How would his spirit have gone against Ragnos later on? Apparently the TOTJ comics retconned themself.

Just because Ragnos was in charge doesn't mean that he wasn't undefied.

Originally posted by IKC
Ragnos hasn't done everything that the ancient Sith are responsible for, ergo you cannot prove that Ragnos did shit relating to Sidious.

We know that Ragnos was the top dog to the Sith. We know that the Ancient Sith were still around in Sidious' time. Who else could it have been?

Wrong. Lucasbooks is not part of his production department. Even if it were, it wouldn't matter, because they didn't write the ****ing book.

Ergo, the chronology is not and cannot create canon. QED.



I'm scanning it the instant I get back to the dorm, now. Better retract this statement before I do.



If it changes that which was mentioned in a previous work, yes.



What a crock of shit. You cannot prove causation, you can only show coincidence.



Uh, no he wasn't. That empire had been around for far longer, for one, and Lightsnake's precious DE claimed that the Sith Empire only existed 2000 years BBY. Period. QED.



Wrong, because SotME was retconned by ESB.

Learn what retcon means, by the way. SotME mentions nothing about the subject material of TOTJ.



By showing that the Sith extended much further into the past than DE claimed. By showing entities that were themselves far more powerful than DE Sidious and Luke.



Good job knowing what you're talking about, Darth "I don't have any primary source material" Glentract.

Nadd declares Exar a pretender as Exar is destroying him. Obviously Ragnos disagreed, since Ragnos later crowned him.



Prove that he lords over all the ancient sith spirits. He only ruled the living.



Because he was top dog out of all the ancient Sith does not mean he controls their every thought and action. You have to prove the positive, period.

Originally posted by IKC
Wrong. Lucasbooks is not part of his production department. Even if it were, it wouldn't matter, because they didn't write the ****ing book.

Ergo, the chronology is not and cannot create canon. QED.

The author of the guide was working for a Lucas production section. Therefor, it is canon. You cannot prove otherwise.

Originally posted by IKC
I'm scanning it the instant I get back to the dorm, now. Better retract this statement before I do.

I'm looking at the TOTJ comic right now. There is no Lucasproduction seal or anything like that on it. There is only a Dark Horse seal.

Originally posted by IKC
If it changes that which was mentioned in a previous work, yes.

And how does this make TOTJ above and beyond DE in the fact that DE Sidious was accepted by the Ancient Sith?

Originally posted by IKC
What a crock of shit. You cannot prove causation, you can only show coincidence.

Gosh, I even said it was just a random detail I found intresting. Take a chill pill.

Originally posted by IKC
Uh, no he wasn't. That empire had been around for far longer, for one, and Lightsnake's precious DE claimed that the Sith Empire only existed 2000 years BBY. Period. QED.

I don't remember that. In anycase, it doesn't make the entire series wrong.

Originally posted by IKC
Wrong, because SotME was retconned by ESB.

Learn what retcon means, by the way. SotME mentions nothing about the subject material of TOTJ.

In what way did ESB retcon SotME?

Originally posted by IKC
By showing that the Sith extended much further into the past than DE claimed. By showing entities that were themselves far more powerful than DE Sidious and Luke.

It never showed that they are more powerful then DN Luke. Them showing how far the Sith extend into the past was only retconned in that particular area. The rest of the comics are fine.

Originally posted by IKC
Good job knowing what you're talking about, Darth "I don't have any primary source material" Glentract.

Nadd declares Exar a pretender as Exar is destroying him. Obviously Ragnos disagreed, since Ragnos later crowned him.

I don't have any primary source material? Tell, have you read DN and NJO IKC? Oh, and seeing as I have one of the TOTJ comics on the shelf right next to me...

Originally posted by IKC
Prove that he lords over all the ancient sith spirits. He only ruled the living.

He was the one who crowned Exar. Ragnos was the top in life and in death. Prove that anything changed for the Sith in terms of who ruled from life to death.

Originally posted by IKC
Because he was top dog out of all the ancient Sith does not mean he controls their every thought and action. You have to prove the positive, period.

You have to prove that anything changed between Sidious' time and Exar's time before I need to prove that he was still in charge. I mean, if you are comparing Obi-wan in ROTS and you state that he defeated Maul, I'm not going to ask you to prove that he still could do it, as there is no evidence that anything has changed. The same applies here.

Yes Ragnos approves of Kun and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the spirits of the ancient sith lords, especially Ragnos since it was he who was most likely doing the talking, approve of Sidious by declaring him the greatest of them all? If so, why would you downplay that? And Luke in NJO or DN was referred to as the greatest force user the galaxy had ever seen, so why after all of these facts(and I'm assuming they are facts since i've seen the same thing in various forums), would you say Kun would take Luke, or exaggerate Kun's achievements while downplaying others? It just seems your opinion is biased in regards to Kun, in certain situations like this one. We know that Luke is declared the greatest force user the galaxy has ever seen, now I just need to find the exact quote.

Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.

Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.

QED



Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.



Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, y'know, somewhere between DE declaring Palpatine the strongest Sith ever, him doing far more than the Ancient Sith ever did out of thin air...

Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:

Originally posted by Illustrious
Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.

Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the golden age was actually 5000 years before the events in question.

Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).

The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass?



No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.



Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?



I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.

And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.



Yeah, you have one. Good job. I have all of the ones Exar Kun appears in, you don't. I think I know a bit more of what I'm talking about than you do.



Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.

As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.

Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.



Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want proof that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.

Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.



Because first, you haven't proved up, and second, Luke's shown power doesn't measure up. Indeed, Ragnos' statements to his power are more solid. He is called the most powerful of the most powerful.

Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.

One amulet blast and Luke is dead.



No, we don't know that. Happy hunting. *rolls eyes*

Yes, but, Ragnos specifically said, that Kun would bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, whilst when he said Sidious was the greatest, he compared Sidious to the Sith of SIDIOUS'S TIME

However, while Luke has been crowned the greatest force user the world has ever seen, how many people in the galaxy have "seen" or even heard of Kun, remember during the Kotor era, almost all link to the Sith prior to it had been eliminated, as well, it is most likely they are reffereing to the Sith Empire 2000 years ago, in other words Bane's time

However all the Ancient Sith magic, its weaponry, its technology had been lost, remember noone ever replicated anything as powerful as the Sith Amulet, nor the Scepter of Ragnos...

And remember Kun has access to most if not all of it, thereby meaning his knowledge would be deeper, and dying at a young age meant he never realised his true potential, whereas Luke had never died, he has done impress feats for HIS TIME, not for the Sith or Jedi prior to Kotor Era...

I havent seen Luke, using a spell to freeze thousand upon thousands of people, i havent seen Luke kill a monster with one blast, i havent seen Luke suck out the force of an entire RACE.

tdtd make sure, that the quote of Luke being the greatest apply to the time of Kun, Ancient Sith's and hell even Revan's time...You cant believe that anyone in the Galaxy had ever seen the powers of anything beyond the Bane Empire, therefore that comment can only apply to the Era Between Bane's Sith Empire to the time of DN.

Regarding the comment on Sidious, even if Ragnos did state him to be the greatest, it would simply mean, he conquered the Republic and created his Galactic Empire, something none of the Sith managed..i dont doubt he has the greatest feat, but him being the strongest? i dont think so

Originally posted by IKC
Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.

Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.

QED



Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.



Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!



Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:





No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.



Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?



I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.

And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.



Yeah, you have one. Good job. I have all of the ones Exar Kun appears in, you don't. I think I know a bit more of what I'm talking about than you do.



Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.

As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.

Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.



Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want proof that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.

Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.



Because first, you haven't proved up, and second, Luke's shown power doesn't measure up. Indeed, Ragnos' statements to his power are more solid. He is called the most powerful of the most powerful.

Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.

One amulet blast and Luke is dead.



No, we don't know that. Happy hunting. *rolls eyes*

IKCPwnt.

lol

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4465/dlotsback4im.th.jpg

So Glentract, what was that about TOTJ not having the Lucasbooks seal again?

By your retarded standards, TOTJ is now G-Canon.

And Glentract learns that SW canon is not subjective to his bias, AGAIN.

You know what why don't we just say that NJO/DN Luke=Kun to make things easier. There is magic Luke hasn't seen that Kun has and there is magic Kun hasn't seen/done that Luke has, IE controlling black holes/emerald lightning. There has been no conclusive evidence on THIS forum that Kun is greater than Luke or vice versa. Need to check the other forums.

Why would other forums be better avenues of evidence? There's people here who have reviewed both characters.

And yet we have 3 pages here without any argument about it... Just stupid arguments about canon what is and what isn't...

No prove has been given for Luke or Exar...

but IKC have you read the DN books?

I love how you dip into irrelevant feat wars to show how Luke can beat Exar, nevermind that all the "emerald lightning" did was stun a slayer for Jacen to hack it up and that Kun isn't exactly a black hole, is he?

Kun can fire blasts from both his hands that rip holes in gigantic sith monstrosities and temple walls. Luke is dicked.

lol.. Luke manipulates black holes.. Kun is dicked..

I love how you come into threads and spout your uninformed, silly opinions.

You're right, luke manipulating black holes is an "uninformed opinion". Another nerd with no common sense.

Erm, it is. You've never actually provided an argument for anything, you've just spouted unrelated stuff. Put your black holes "argument" in context with how he will beat Kun.

I don't know how he will beat kun nor do I know how Kun will beat him. There's too much fanboyism and not enough logic. IKC was listing Kun's force achievements so "manipulating a black hole" would be under that category.

Whilst IKC has provided scans and visual evidence for why Kun will win, you have not provided any evidence...

If you refer to my first post I said my evidence was purely speculation as I haven't read the books nor do I know the exact quotes and I know they exist, but until I find them they will be speculation. IKC has provided scans for Kun beating anyone and everyone and instantly shut down the thought of anyone beating kun

Well, have you provided a reasonable counter to Kun's blasts?

No because I don't know enough about NJO/DN luke to say how he would defend himself. Nor do I understand how you can't consider Luke and his mimbam crystal canon but you can consider Kun and his amulets canon. We also do know that both artifacts made both individuals more powerful.

Perhaps the fact is that TOJT does not contradict the movies. Whereas, SOTME does.

I haven't read it, what specifically contradicts the movies.

SotME contradicts the movies in these ways:

In SotME, Luke confronts Vader, duels him, and beats him. This is contradicted by ESB where Luke gets pwned.

In SotME, he finds the Kaiburr crystal which greatly amplifies Force power. The crystal has mysteriously disappeared from his possessions by ESB and is never mentioned again.

In SotME, he's able to use the Force with some proficiency, whereas in ESB he's barely able to pluck his lightsaber from the ice.

SotME is not canon. QED.

So when does SOTME exactly take place?

Between ANH and ESB.

Wtf? Then why did someone on a few other forums say that the crystal he gets was in either NJO or DN, and when he moves away from the temple the crystal loses power.. This is the same thing we're talking about?

Because there are Luke fanboys in the universe?

The kaiburr crystal is from the non-canon SotME.

Ok. ANd I'm sure you've stated this before, but why can we not assume that Kun became uber powerful from Sadow's amulet and his notes on Sith Magic?

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok. ANd I'm sure you've stated this before, but why can we not assume that Kun became uber powerful from Sadow's amulet and his notes on Sith Magic?

You technically can assume that said things made him more powerful, but you have nothing to base upon how powerful he would have been if he did not have said items, so it's pointless speculation and a moot point.

Also, Kun's amulet blasts are relevant. They can be used to attack an enemy in this case. How is Luke manipulating a black hole relevant? Unless he wants to suck the entire star cluster in with him along with Exar, it's not a relevant point.

Well how effective would those blasts be?

They couldn't kill a spirit in one shot, it took him several shots to defeat Sadow his beast and he admitted himself that he could barely control the blast. Would he able to use it again? Has he ever used it after the fight with Sadow his beast?

It looks like DN Luke and Kun would be the closest fight out of anybody. And I'm sure those blasts were effective but from what I understand so was Emerald Lightning

They rip through monster and rock with ease. I think they'd be more than effective enough on Luke "zOMG, teh FURCE!" Skywalker.



Uh, I call bullshit.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

You were saying?



Wrong.

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Note the narration: "And each blast consumes another of Naga Sadow's horrors!"

That's more than one horror Kun is blasting.



Yes, a Kun that had embraced the Dark Side just seconds previously said he could just barely direct the blast. This means that uber Kun of the Sith War can't either? I think not.

He also says his hand is burned. Look at the first scan I posted in this reply. Look burned to you?



There is zero reason to assume he can't.



No. Had he ever been in a life-threatening situation again? No.



Except all "emerald lightning" did was stun a Slayer so Jacen could hack it up. These blasts tore through everything they touched.

Ok so IKC you're saying luke would have no defense for Kun.. Now tell me then, what defense would Ragnos have for Kun? What's that? We don't know? We just know he's the most powerful of the most powerful? It's the same with Luke.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok so IKC you're saying luke would have no defense for Kun.. Now tell me then, what defense would Ragnos have for Kun? What's that? We don't know? We just know he's the most powerful of the most powerful? It's the same with Luke.

Wrong, because it's easier to assume Ragnos had a defense for the amulet blasts because he lived and dominated over the man who created the original amulet.

As for Luke? We certainly do not know he's the "most powerful of the most powerful." That's bullshit that you've still yet to prove up on.

I'm waiting for someone to tell me what book that quote is from. That Luke is the most powerful force user the galaxy has ever seen. I can't prove up which is why i've been asking you more knowedgeable people to tell me what I'm talking about.

Then why the **** do you presume to be able to debate about thing you know shit about?

Because I've heard the quote. And you get so defensive when everybody doesn't jump on Kun's nuts and assume he's a force G-d.

Then you're no better than someone who reads Supershadow. Parroting things you've "heard" without backup is a ridiculous debating tactic.

Again, if you have read NJO/DN you'd know what i'm talking about. I'm assuming you haven't if you're not familiar with the quote, I'm wondering if anyone on this forum has.

Have you read it? Obviously since you haven't proven up, it seems you haven't. Quit parroting things you've "heard" elsewhere as your primary tactic in debate.

I'm not debating with you lol. I was asking, I'm sure you enjoy your daily star wars debate but I mostly ask questions unles I know something.

Originally posted by IKC
They rip through monster and rock with ease. I think they'd be more than effective enough on Luke "zOMG, teh FURCE!" Skywalker.



Uh, I call bullshit.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

You were saying?



Wrong.

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Note the narration: "And each blast consumes another of Naga Sadow's horrors!"

That's more than one horror Kun is blasting.



Yes, a Kun that had embraced the Dark Side just seconds previously said he could just barely direct the blast. This means that uber Kun of the Sith War can't either? I think not.

He also says his hand is burned. Look at the first scan I posted in this reply. Look burned to you?



There is zero reason to assume he can't.



No. Had he ever been in a life-threatening situation again? No.



Except all "emerald lightning" did was stun a Slayer so Jacen could hack it up. These blasts tore through everything they touched.

On the Nadd thing

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_39_26.jpg

He had time to contact Aleema tell her that Exar was an ass, and it says he surrenders himself. Doesn't seem to me like one simple attack was the entire reason Nadd died... And it certainly didn't happen in a second.

And saying he could the amulet again because he's more powerful, the amulet draws on his power on his anger, the amulet would become more powerful with Kun and therefor still provide the same danger to him. And really I don't think he would be willing to take the risk of using that amulet again, unless it was absolutely necessary.

Did I say it was an instakill? No. But you claimed it took more than one shot, and I called bullshit. Prove that it was more than one or zip it.

Well unless his shots last for a long time it took more then one shot. Anyways seeing as it doesn't kill on impact it might not be powerful enough to just rip Luke apart..

So how are you going to prove that it only took 1 lol

Jesus H. Christ, Fishy, he stuck his hand into Nadd's spirit.

He didn't ****ing shoot him like he did the beast. Are you f'ing blind?

LOOK AT THIS: http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

That, does not equal THIS:
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Anger is the path to the dark side IKC

So is trolling and blindness.

Well you are getting upset over nothing...

Still if anything that would make the blast more powreful wouldn't it? I mean being inside something and shooting it is more effective then being outside of somebody and it still didn't kill him right away, it took time. Its not unlikely that a powerful Jedi or Sith could survive a blast like that.

For the second time: HE DIDN'T ****ING SHOOT HIM.

Look at the god damned scan already! Jesus H. Christ!

Read my post... Replace shooting with using the amulet then.

and really why are you so upset? Calm down

Because you're blind.

And now your post is invalid, because he didn't do the same thing to Nadd as he did to the beasts. QED.

Oh come on...

He used the amulet, you yourself have said so a dozen times... He put the amulet in Nadd, which would logically make the attack all that more powerful and he hated Nadd far more then he hated the beast which would again only make the attack more powerful based on what the narrator tells us about the amulet... So how is it invalid?

How could Kun his amulet kill people with one blast if we have never seen it, and how could he continue to use it when it almost took control of him, could he use it in a fight against another powerful force user? Prove up.

Except the scans make your assertion wrong. Exar did not do the same thing to Nadd that he did the beasts. Period. He simply stuck his hand inside Nadd and Nadd was able to make a little spiel to Satal/Aleema before he faded from existence.

Besides that, he was a ****ing spirit, Fishy. He was not a physical object, ergo you have to prove why he'd be able to die in the same manner as a flesh-and-blood being. Since you can't, he doesn't.



Absence of proof is not proof of absence. We see it tear through stone and beasts. Human beings are not made of tougher stuff than those things, ergo the blast will have the exact same effect.



Because it didn't control him. I already answered this point, but of course you're blind.





There is no reason to assume he cannot. You prove up. We see him use this ability. There is no reason to assume he cannot continue to use it.

Actually IKC like I already said, the amulet was powered by his own hatred and power. If he would become more powerful the amulet would become more powerful. Ergo the danger of him falling to it would also become greater... Its a super weapon but he fears it for some reason and he would most likely not use it unless he had no other option. So don't acuse me of being blind when you fail to read my posts.

and really he still used the amulet did he not? Thats how he killed Nadd ,you said it yourself a dozen times. The amulet was unable to kill Nadd who he hated more then the beast in one swift attack...

and humans are of course build differently then a spirit a wall or a sith beast but the force makes people more powerful...

Once again, IKC stops using logic when Kun is involved. He seems to know what he's talking about in other threads but he is a Kun fanboy whether he admits it or not... Awaiting personal attacks now.

Your point is still moot because he didn't perform the same action.



You just contradicted yourself. His anger is what powers his blasts, one doesn't gain more Force potential as they get older.

Your point is still moot because he didn't perform the same action.



WTF? Falling to it? It's a goddamn tool, Fishy. There is nothing to indicate that it can control him. Now you're just making shit up.

Your point is still moot because he didn't perform the same action.



You are blind because you fail to see things I post multiple times and now you're making shit up.



Yeah. I can use a hammer both to pound in a nail and break a piece of wood. Does that mean I'm performing the same action?



HE WASN'T PERFORMING THE SAME ****ING ACTION, FISHY!

Look. At. The. Scans.



And there is no evidence that someone powered by the Force will be able to block a blast like that.

But okay. I'm going to shoot directly at Luke Skywalker with the Death Star. He going to absorb that because of "zOMG TEH FURCE?"

I think not. Go to bed.

Originally posted by IKC
Your point is still moot because he didn't perform the same action.

He used the same weapon, it had the same effect it practically did the same thing only difference is that it didn't shoot a beam... Unless you can prove that the amulet could use several different kind of attacks it was the same attack done differently.



his anger and his power, power the blast. You said he became more powerful.



Read above





He said so himself

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_39_25.jpg

Read the indeed it almost destroyed him part...

Your point is still moot because he didn't perform the same action.

Read abobve



I'm making shit up? You are the one thats making shit up, like the freezing the entire senate and all the Jedi there thing... Don't accuse me of something I didn't do. And try proving instead of just saying next time.





Read above



Read above..



Still it never killed somebody instantly, and if it was trully unblockable unstoppable or would kill on impact he would have used it against Ragnos which he didn't.



Ridiculious statement, I never even said anything to that extent and if thats how you are going to debate I suggest you just stop.



Says the guy who gets pissed of over an argument... You might try doing this yourself... You seem irritated.

Because you're not making seem Kun uber enough. IKC says that what I say or what you or anyone else say about Luke is pure speculation, but then he says "the senate probably has 1 million people" and calls that a logical statement.

Unless I can prove that it can do different things? I can prove a hammer does different things, but here you go:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8776/kunmoreamulets3qw.th.jpg

Done assuming it only has one use yet? Done talking out your ass yet?



No, I said his anger powers the blast. That's what the narration says. The amulet doesn't have power, it doesn't get powerful with him.



And then read where in the Sith War he makes another identical amulet. Boy, he sure did fear his own tools, didn't he? Obviously he can control them, especially since he gained a lot more experience since DLotS and TSW.



I have never said he froze the Jedi. Are you drunk? Quote me for truth, you're making shit up again.

Freezing the Senate, however, is not made up. Here you go:





It killed each monster he fired a beam at instantly, as is evidenced by the narration. Your assumptions mean jack shit in this debate because the scans contradict you.

WTF are you talking about? He would have used it against Ragnos? What the hell? What motivation would he have had to use it against the spirit of Marka Ragnos who is busy crowning him as the Dark Lord of the Sith? You must be drunk.



And so is the ridiculous assumption that a Force user would not be blown apart by the amulet blasts because of "zOMG teh furce!111!"

It's a parody of your logic.



Because you're blind and seem drunk. You say ridiculous things without even thinking about them. Go to bed.

Originally posted by IKC
Unless I can prove that it can do different things? I can prove a hammer does different things, but here you go:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8776/kunmoreamulets3qw.th.jpg

Done assuming it only has one use yet? Done talking out your ass yet?

Amulet is on his right hand in that scan, the amulet he used against Nadd was left, done talking out of your ass yet.



But if he becomes more powerful the amulet would do the same, if not then the amulet is really only useful in a weakened state. Because eventually he would become more powerful calm then angry. And still he would have hated Nadd more then the beast so the attack would have been more powerful.




Oh yes and of course there is no difference between an amulet he created and an amulet Sadow created.



Actually you have plenty of times in arguments for Exar. You said a great many times he froze the entire senate and the Jedi there except for the only one poweful enough to stand up to him Vodo.



I know and I never claimed that.



I must be drunk and tired then becuase I don't see it claiming that, if anything the comic shows him firing several times



Talking about Sadow here...




Ridiculous only because you do not like it... I'm just saying that perhaps it isn't able to do that.



Stop being so childish.



I'm not the one thats started getting personal here IKC, please drop the attitude

Yes, that's the duplicate he built for himself. I'm sure glad you know what you're talking about... oh wait.

I'm glad you assume that the amulets only have one function, too.



Except not, because you cannot gain Force potential. Ergo, he cannot just "become" more powerful. The amulet can't gain power. The amulet allows you to unleash "tremendous" energies with your anger.

And again, he doesn't perform the same action against Nadd as he does the beast. LOOK AT THE SCANS.



And why would there be? Most Sith knowledge he learned came from Sadow. Prove that they're different or don't talk out your ass.



No, bullshit. I have stated just the opposite. Now you're making shit up. Quote me for truth.

In fact, I have stated that Vodo wasn't present to be frozen. I have stated that the Jedi weren't frozen but that they were so beneath him that he didn't bother with them.

All of the Senate and their guards were frozen. That's over a million different beings at the lowest.



You just did. Read up.



LOOK AT THE SCANS! SECOND ONE!

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

"--And each blast consumes another of Naga Sadow's horrors!" - Omniscient Narrator

And each blast rips through everything it touches in the scans. That's death, right there.



Then say Sadow, damnit. And Marka must have had a defense or an even better weapon. You cannot assume Luke does, however, because Luke knows jack shit about Sith artifacts and magic.



You're saying it with no evidence. The onus is on you, and you're drunk.



I guess Illustrious is childish when he does the same thing.



You are the one posting drunk and not making any sense whatsoever. Go to bed.

Jesus christ Fishy is right IKC, calm your hormones down already. I do remember you stating that he froze everybody except Vodo. Don't get so angry because we don't hold Kun in the higest regards as you do

Remember it where? PROVE UP, troll.

Calm down bro you just hate the idea that Exar could either get taken by Luke or isn't the most uber force user out there.. Take your pills and go to bed.. And I'd rather be a troll than a fanboy who gets angry at a star wars debate.

This coming from a troll. A troll whose many inane, one-line posts frequently come directly from his ass. Have fun amusing yourself.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, that's the duplicate he built for himself. I'm sure glad you know what you're talking about... oh wait.

I'm glad you assume that the amulets only have one function, too.

I'm glad your assuming otherwise without prove, and even more so when you assume that he build the amulete in the exact same way... Wow, any prove for that? Or does it just fit into your argument?



Right, so effectively the amulet would be useless if somebody would reach his limit of power, if somebody would become more powerful in a normal state more controlled then angry? Right? The blast becomes more powerful each times he fires each time his anger increases.. But if it really only relies on anger and potential and not on power then the amulet really makes Exar kun weaker then we previously assumed. Becuase it takes no skill at all, and TPM anakin with that amulet could have WTFPwned pretty much everybody.



and again, unless you can prove the amulet can do more then one sort of attack when we only see it doing one thing, then this isn't going to cut it.



Prove that they are different? We see one amulet do one thing the other another, unless you can prove that they can do the same thing they can't. Your asking me to prove they can't, when there is no evidence that they can.



Let me search i'll come back on this later.



I'll go find the quote



http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_13.jpg

Ah look a big ass stadium could that house a million people? Very much doubt it, doesn't seem all that big to me really, and definitly not big enough to house a million people let alone stand far more...



No, I... Wait i'm not even going to say it.




http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_39_23.jpg

thats one

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_39_24.jpg

And thats two, shot straight through the guy... impressive indeed, but didn't kill him in one shot...




Or perhaps the weapon couldn't have killed him?



Pretty damn sober here... And there is plenty of evidence.... Well nothing conclusive really, but you can't provide that either thats why we are arguing...



No, because he doesn't do the same thing. If he would do what you are doing now though then yes he would be childish...




and your an ignorant boy with a rat nose go to school, does that make any sense? No it doesn't. Stop saying it... I won't do it because you want me too.

Originally posted by tdtd
Jesus christ Fishy is right IKC, calm your hormones down already. I do remember you stating that he froze everybody except Vodo. Don't get so angry because we don't hold Kun in the higest regards as you do

Actually, no he didn't. He's constantly said the opposite.

So with that blast it didn't kill him with 1 shot, nice try IKC..Secondly, what fishy said about the amulet also seems accurate..

Right, so effectively the amulet would be useless if somebody would reach his limit of power, if somebody would become more powerful in a normal state more controlled then angry? Right? The blast becomes more powerful each times he fires each time his anger increases.. But if it really only relies on anger and potential and not on power then the amulet really makes Exar kun weaker then we previously assumed. Becuase it takes no skill at all, and TPM anakin with that amulet could have WTFPwned pretty much everybody.


I enjoy being called a troll, fanboy

Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, no he didn't. He's constantly said the opposite.

I have to agree with this, I was wrong he for as far as I could find in recent post has not claimed this, it was Illustrious who claimed it last but that wasn't really specific.. So I was wrong on this.

Occam's razor. The correct assumption is to assume it is identical because the major source of Sith knowledge for Kun is Sadow.

So are you saying the amulets can't be used for anything but that one attack? Does that mean I can't hit someone with it? I can't hammer in a nail with it?



Nonsense. He can still use the power, but that doesn't mean it gets more powerful as he gets more experienced.



WTF are you talking about? Yes, the blasts become more powerful the angrier he gets. So? How the **** does that make him weaker?



Pull your head out of your ass. We see the amulets do three different things:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8776/kunmoreamulets3qw.th.jpg

QED, end of story.



No, the correct assumption is they are the same. You have to prove they're different.

We see one amulet do two things, the other amulet which is based on the first one do another. So you're assuming that despite the aesthetic similarities and the fact that it's most likely constructed based on the original, that they're different? That's nonsense.



Good luck...



Uh, look at the ****ing place. Ulic is on the smaller podium in the center there, and he's a speck. That place could easily house over a million sentient beings.



Learn to count, he fires six different times. Not every time is at the wyrm, either. The last shot is what takes out the wyrm, it goes through the back of its head and out its mouth.



There's no reason to assume that. Marka's a tank, but he's not made of tougher stuff than stone.



Bullshit. My evidence is the blasts themselves and their on-panel effects. The onus is on you to prove that they'd have no effect. You've done jack shit to do so.



Funny, because my parodies of your logic are quite similar to Illustrious' parodies of other people's. But believe what you want.



Except I have plenty reason to say you're not posting sensibly. You're incoherent half the time and you're making wild assumptions with no evidence to back them up.

Originally posted by IKC
Occam's razor. The correct assumption is to assume it is identical because the major source of Sith knowledge for Kun is Sadow.

And why would he create an amulet he fears and has never used again, for a second time? What would the purpose be? He sometimes uses both hands in an attack, so why would he need two? It makes no sense.



Oh come on what kind of stupid logic is this, of course you can hit somebody with it. The same way you can hit somebody with a banana won't make it a deadly weapon now will it? Seriously.... This is just foolish, and really debating like this is useless.



Thats pretty damn stupid if you ask me, any proof for this btw?



Well apparantly he could have used the blasts as a 3 year old when angry, doesn't exactly speak well for Exar his skill now does it? If a 3 year old could have done the exact same thing.



Actually the attacks on the beast and on Nadd are very likely the same thing you still haven't proven otherwise, just because they look different doesn't mean they are the same...

and the other thing was done by another amulet that you still haven't proven is the same.



Indeed because a bunch of assumptions prove a lot now.



Why is that? You are claiming they are the same, prove up.


We see one amulet do two things, the other amulet which is based on the first one do another. So you're assuming that despite the aesthetic similarities and the fact that it's most likely constructed based on the original, that they're different? That's nonsense.

No, I am assuming that because we don't see the second amulet do anything the first one did and that somebody would have no use for the same amulet twice the second is different. You are assuming they are the same based on how they look.



Couldn't find it, I admit you were right.



Have you ever been to a Stadium to a top? Big stadiums hold about 50.000 people and when you are at the top of that on the other side seeing whats happening on the other side is pretty hard.




And he fires at the beast twice.



So you are going to assume he had a weapon that was more powerful and that he could block the attack without evidence? Nice, nothing conclusive though both things are possible.



Just read my posts..



Well he still isn't a Kun fanboy he makes sense, doesn't use them against me and I've never seen it used in situations like this.




And there is plenty of reason to call you a Exar fanboy, what does that do to you? So just stop saying it, it makes you look like a twelve year old.

IKC, have you read the Dark Nest books?

Originally posted by IKC
SotME contradicts the movies in these ways:

They are crap ways, as you don't understand why these things happened. If you were a little less ignorant, maybe you would have taken a few minutes to figure this stuff out.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, Luke confronts Vader, duels him, and beats him. This is contradicted by ESB where Luke gets pwned.

Obi-wan is stated as guiding Luke's body. Obi-wan's spirit fought Vader through Luke, rather then Luke personally fighting Vader.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, he finds the Kaiburr crystal which greatly amplifies Force power. The crystal has mysteriously disappeared from his possessions by ESB and is never mentioned again.

The Kaiburr crystal lost much of it's power after he left the planet it was found on. Luke later put the crystal in his lightsaber, which made his blade extremely efficient and powerful.

Originally posted by IKC
In SotME, he's able to use the Force with some proficiency, whereas in ESB he's barely able to pluck his lightsaber from the ice.

SotME is not canon. QED.

Any specifics?

Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.

Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.

QED

You don't have any proof that the Guides are any lower a level of canon then the comics. They are made by a Lucas department just like the comics and are a newer source of information then them. When do they even contradict?

What is it with you and putting QED everywhere?

Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.

You know, only a few of the comics have the seal on them. Some of the DLoS comics don't have it.

Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!

I really hope that is not the best response you can come up with.

Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:

Then the guides are a newer form of canon then the comics and they outweigh them, assuming they even contradict eachother to begin with.

No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.

I could state that the TOTJ comics are hyperbolic descriptions of power, or what could at least be called hyperbolic descriptions of power, in them. I cannot and would not even if I could try to change what is canon to make it more in line with the rest of the EU. You however have tried to do so, leading me to believe that you may be the most intelligent fanboy I have ever met.

Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?

I already mentioned this in a previous post. If you had done your research, you would know why the things in SotME happened like they did and why they do not contradict any higher levels of canon.

I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.

And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.

I'm not having a reading comprehension problem, I am just stating that even if the Ancient Sith are more powerful then DE Luke, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are more powerful then DN Luke, the person in question.

And even if small elements were retconned, that does not make the entire comic false. If we go by your standard on that matter, then ANH isn't canon as in ep2 and 3 we see that Owen Lars didn't say anthing one way or the other when it came to Anakin fighting in the Clone Wars, but in ANH it was stated that Owen didn't want him fighting in it. See my point?

Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.

Then why would it have mattered that it was Ragnos that liked Exar? We know that the spirits of Korriban(which includes Ragnos) like Sidious.

As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.

What where these special conditions required for Ragnos to go talk to them?

Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.

Here is where your argument potentially backfires. Certain elements of DE have been retconned. That means that Ragnos was the top dog on Korriban still. And seeing as spirits can be destroyed, why would anyone dare go against Ragnos?

Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want proof that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.

Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.

Ragnos is the strongest Sith we kow of. If Ragnos was later outdone by some other Sith spirit, then that only speaks more for Sidious being respected by the spirits of Korriban. And seeing as spirits can be killed, you certainly would not want to go against the top dog Sith.

Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.

What powers has Kun demonstrated beyond defeating someone who has access to mutiple planets worth of power(no, it's not DE Sidious who did this)? This guy probably had more power then Exar got from all of the Massassi. Furthermore, Luke defeated this person while under attack from a second person who is also extremely powerful. And beyond even that, there were mutiple others with Shattergun pellets firing at him while he was fighting the other two people. Note that shattergun pellets are stated as very difficult to block compared to blaster bolts.

When has Kun ever demonstrated the ability to leave people effectively instakilled who are outside of the force? Yss, Luke's attack doesn't instakill, but they are helpless after being hit by it, so the effect is the same.

When has Exar ever shown the ability to call all the Jedi to him. Not just certain nearby Jedi, but all the Jedi in the entire galaxy?

One amulet blast and Luke is dead.

Totally unsupported BS.

IKC is a Kun fanboy and DN Luke would beat Kun, end of debate.

Didn't you just recently criticize IKC for saying, "end of debate" prematurely?

No you're confusing me with someone else. I'm only saying it because there's nothing more he can throw out or prove without being biased without merit.

Because there's no evidence that he fears it and he never used it the same way. You need to prove up, not come out with bullshit theories like "Kun feared his amulet, that's why he created another one."

He doesn't use both hands in those attacks, by the way. If you had eyes, you'd see that his right hand is gripping his wrist.



What's foolish is your assumption that the amulets have only one use and ergo Kun must have performed the same action on Freedon Nadd as he did on Sadow's beasts despite direct on-panel evidence to the contrary. The scans contradict you, your point collapses. QED.



Logical deduction:

Amulets can allow the user to fire blasts powered by anger and, assumedly, one's one Force potential. Kun got damn angry and fired huge blasts.

One cannot increase in Force potential as they get older, one can only get more experienced and learn new techniques.

Ergo, the height of Kun's rage = the maximum blast power he can put out, whether he's trained or not. The amulets seem to trigger the effect, and amulets are mundane objects that cannot gain Force power.

There, simplified for you.



Except he didn't have access to said amulets when he was three years old. It speaks nothing about his skill, it speaks to his Force power and his knowledge when he creates a duplicate.

But what's your point? He can perform the action, there's no known counter to it. Luke is dicked.



Uh, bullshit. The onus is on you to prove the positive. Learn to debate and then come try it.

There was no blast of energy when Kun stuck his hand inside and destroyed Nadd's spirit as there was when Kun fired blasts from his hand to destroy Sadow's creatures. Ergo, the logical assumption is that they are different attacks.



Hello? How do you think he learned how to construct his duplicate amulet, Fishy? Do you think he actually invented a new kind despite the fact that he has one he can copy already? Despite the fact that he has access to everything Sadow had ever written down on Yavin IV?

You assume they are different. You assume they have different properties. You assume that Exar Kun would have no use for a duplicate amulet. You assume all of that in the face of logical deduction and evidence. All of that begs for proof. You can provide none. Ergo, it is proper to assume they are identical and share identical properties.



Have you ever been on the Space Shuttle? It can only hold a handful of people. My, that must mean Star Wars ships are only populated by a handful of people!

Face it. That stadium is far bigger than anything we've ever built on Earth. That and you're arguing in the face of G-Canon fact:





And each blast he fires is described by the omniscient narrator as "consum(ing) another of Naga Sadow's horrors!"



The logical conclusion is to assume something similar to that, yes, because he lorded over the guy who created the original amulet. Obviously Ragnos knew something we don't, otherwise Sadow or someone else would have blown him away long before he actually died.



Except you keep coming back with the same hare-brained arguments after I slap them down time and time again.

Glentract, have you read all of TOTJ?



Nice condescension from a 14 year old, Glentract. I own the book and have read it; can you say as much?



Except Obi-Wan mysteriously is unable to do so in ESB. He even states that he's unable to. Contradicted by the movies, not canon. QED.



lol. Prove up, where is this stated? Do I have to prove to you that the Chronology cannot create canon, again?



He's able to use telekinesis with a fair degree of competence.



Jesus, Glentract. I just proved to you that the guides are not canon because they do not come from his movie production department. G-Canon is anything that comes from Lucas. The guides did not come from Lucas. Ergo, the guides are not G-Canon, much less any other kind of canon.

I like how you conveniently ignored that I showed how absurd your logic is with my Lucasarts example.



lol!

Glentract, guess what? That was a scan of the compilation book. That one has all of DLotS in it. According to your fanboy logic, that makes TOTJ G-Canon.

Good thing for you that I don't subscribe to that bullshit "logic."



And then I quoted Lightsnake stating the same things you just stated. Good job, buddy.



Did you... read the quote?



Because the Chronology is not and can not create canon, your point collapses. The Chronology cannot, as well, contradict the primary source material they derive their information from, or else the primary source takes precedence over the guide.



Says the boy who thinks he can dictate what is canon.

TOTJ is not hyperbolic, for one. It makes several objective statements: Marka Ragnos, for example, is the (definitive) most powerful of the (again, definitive) most powerful.

But because DE describes DE Luke and Sidious as godlike beings, etc etc, and later those two are put into context with the people of TOTJ (because TOTJ was written later) their descriptions are retconned.



And if you had read the book, you'd see that they did.



First of all, your analogy is flawed since absence of proof is not proof of absence. Lars could easily have told Obi-Wan that as, for example, Obi-Wan is handing off Luke.

And I never said the entire comic was false, you do have a reading comprehension problem. I stated that many of the descriptions of power were made false and Sidious' meetings with Sith spirits were called into question because it was written at a time when the Sith were only supposed to have existed two thousand rather than five thousand BBY.



But you do not know that all of them "liked" Sidious, and you do not know that Ragnos himself liked Sidious, because Ragnos did not yet exist.



See above.



I just told you. One of them was Exar and Ulic's amulets meeting. That is made very clear at the end of DLotS.



Except you have no proof that he lorded over those who were already dead, nor do you have any proof that spirits can harm one another. You assume that since he lords over the living then he must lord over the dead, but this assumption begs for proof. So prove up.



How about you provide some context? I remember your bullshit about "zOMG, Kyp killed teh leviathan!!1!1!ONE"



This is another Lightsnake argument.

There is no proof that Exar got jack shit from the massassi. We only know that their sacrifices were needed for the ritual to free his spirit to take place.



Feat wars are a logical fallacy. Provide some convincing context and then show how he'd beat Kun, who likely has much greater lightsaber skill than Luke.



Feat wars are a logical fallacy. If I participated in feat wars, I'd easily answer this with Kun's sith magic spell, the one that froze the entire Senate of at least one million beings and sustained itself while he used the Chancellor of the Republic as a puppet and WTFPWNed Vodo Baas.



Lol!

Feat wars are a logical fallacy, but you just shot yourself in the foot.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

There you go, all the Jedi in the galaxy. Way more than Luke had, too.



http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Wanna run that by me again?

Kun wins. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Originally posted by IKC
Because there's no evidence that he fears it and he never used it the same way. You need to prove up, not come out with bullshit theories like "Kun feared his amulet, that's why he created another one."

It literally says he was afraid for the amulet, that it almost destroyed him.



And you accuse me of being blind?

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_39_24.jpg

Read the first image... The one where he says he can barely control the attacks... He uses both hands.



How foolish, when we only see the amulet do one thing and another amulet another.... Yay

And again, the attack was pretty much the same it just looked different the energy from the amulet destroyed Nadd. The amulet is kinda like a bazooka I fire it at you, it looks different then when I put it up your ass and fire, the second btw is far more effective. Still the weapon does the same thing.



Which is hypocritical coming from you... but okay...



And he got even angrier when he faced Nadd because he hated Nadd far more then some stupid beast he had never seen, so that attack even if it was different would have been more powerful. Or do you wish tho argue that too.



And that just makes Kun look like a pussy, if his greatest feats were accomplished by something he could barely control and didn't power at all. His potential means jack shit as he probably never reached it. Without his amulets he would be dead as hell, of course he's fighting with amulets... Really give that to Anakin and he would everybody in PT times even when he was five year olds... It just kinda makes him look weak as hell without them.



It speaks for his knowledge that he did create another amulet yes, I agree with that. But Odan Urr was a knowledge nut, he wasn't exactly the mots powerful Jedi out there.



Just that I used to believe he was powering it, and now it turns out that no matter how skilled he is, the attack would have been the same...



Your the one making an assumption like that with no prove, when we clearly see the second amulet do a completely different thing and the first amulet only do one thing. Then why the hell should I prove they are different? The only thing they share is how they look.



Again, if I fire at you with a Bazooka or put it up your ass and then fire they will look different they are pretty much the same.

Still the narrator says "With every pulse of anger the anger doubles the power of its discharge" Then he puts it Nadd and the Amulet again discharges energy its the same thing it just looks different.



Sadow didn't have all his writings there, he got there right after an invasion he was running... So perhaps the writings for creating an amulet like the one Kun already had wasn't there.

Then we have the fact that the Amulets are never seen doing the same thing.

And the fact that having two of the same amulets is very useless, why create two bazooka's when you can have a bazooka and a M16, it would have been a waste of his time to create another weapon that does the exact same thing, when he could barely control it the first time and never used it again.



No actually, there is nothing to show that they are alike, except for there look. Prove that they are the same when we know for sure that the attacks they used are not the same.



Very stupid logic IKC, the stadium simply can not hold a million people, simple as that. The stadium isn't much bigger then an average earth stadium. Madison Square Garden for instance can house about 20.000 people, the new york yankee stadium can house about 52.000 people, the Amsterdam Arena can house about 20 to 30.000 people depending on what kind of thing is going on.

That Stadium isn't bigger and definitly not much bigger then any of those. Yet you claim it can house a million people. Bullshit.




G-Canon? Opinions are G-Canon now? and the stadium isn't bigger, you haven't proven jack shit. If that stadium could house a million we wouldn't even see Ulic standing there.



And we still see it fire at the big beast twice...



Unless of course he could resist the attacks without amulets in some other way. Its not going to be impossible to do that.



With more assumptions that you can find in the average Kotor post, which you hate so much and keep attacking because they are assumptions.

You cannot win an argument with a fanboy.

It nowhere states that he feared the amulet. You're reading that into it. It is nowhere in the text.

And it states that it almost destroyed the untrained Kun. Kun later himself says that the knowledge of Naga Sadow could destroy him if he didn't master it, "So master it I shall!"

Ergo, the amulet cannot destroy him, and he didn't fear an inanimate object.



Right, because his hand couldn't possibly be gripping his wrist right? That's why all the other scans have him shooting just with his left, right?

Tell me, what amulet did he have on his right hand at that time? What's that? None?



FISHY. LOOK AT THE SCANS.

They are not the same attack because they look nothing alike. Nadd is not a physical object, ergo we should have seen an energy blast if Kun fired one. He did not. All he did was stick his hand inside where his spirit was.

The onus is on you to prove that they're the same attack. You. Can. Not.

Again:





No, bullshit. Exar only acts on an "impulse of anger" when he destroys Nadd, whereas against the beast his "rage multiplies a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times."

Looks like you lose the point. Those are omniscient narrator quotes.

By the way, you still haven't proven that the attacks were the same. Have fun trying, because the scans contradict you.



Except Kun has plenty of testaments to his power that were not accomplished with said amulets, one of which was constructing another one, indicating he has learned quite a lot of the knowledge of the Ancients. But it doesn't matter what you think in your unsupported opinion makes "Kun look like a pussy," he's a "pussy" that's going to beat the shit out of Skywalker.

And you can't assume that TPM Anakin has more potential than Kun, by the way. Anakin is a pretty big question mark.



Naga Sadow was a "knowledge nut." Is he a weakling now, too?

Good standards there. Nevermind that you degrade Odan-Urr to make your weak case look better.

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

What's that about Odan being a weakling again?



He is powering it. That doesn't mean it requires skill to perform, but it does require skill to control. You going to knock Leia for adding her power to Luke during DE now? Because it's a similar situation.

Both situations speak as testaments to their power.



Because of Occam's razor, Fishy. The natural assumption is that two amulets that look the same, are worn the same way, and appear to be constructed the same way would have the same properties. The onus is on you to prove that they're different: absence of proof is not proof of absence. You cannot simply state out of hand that because Kun never had need to fire a blast out of his new amulet then that means that he couldn't.



Except you can see Kun's hand inside Nadd's spirit. And you can see no blast of energy. Ergo, it's not the same attack. QED.

Stating the same things repeatedly will not make them true. Goebbels didn't take into account someone answering said lies.



Perhaps they weren't, but evidence speaks against it because in TSW he has another one. So either Sadow had said writings on his flagship or he wrote it down again.



Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Learn to debate.



Except he could only barely control it at the time when he had zero experience in the ways of the Dark Side and the Sith. Obviously, since he built another one, he figured out how to control it.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because he never used it again doesn't mean he can't. He was never in a life threatening situation again.



The onus is on you, see above.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.



What a crock of shit, Fishy. How the hell are you estimating how much the Senate can hold when you can't even get a very good look at the place? Why are you assuming that stadium must be the size of our Earth stadiums? The tower that Ulic stands on appears in other scans as absolutely immense. So is the one the Chancellor stands on. And you're still arguing against G-Canon:



QED. Either that stadium, like I believe, can hold millions or that image has been retconned and it should be bigger.



And the beast is larger than the blasts. Ergo, Kun must not have hit it in a vital area with the first shot. However, when he shoots it the final time (through the back of the head, see the scan) the beast is seen in the very next panel as dropping down to the ground, dead.



Or he resisted it with his own amulets. You don't know the circumstances, don't make up ridiculous theories and then try to force people to subscribe to them.

However Ragnos and the rest of the Ancients may have resisted such attacks, they have knowledge that Luke never learned existed. It's ridiculous to assume, then, that Luke can block these blasts.



Except my assumptions are backed up with logical deductions derived from on-panel evidence, whereas yours are from... non-canon gameplay. Good call.

Originally posted by IKC
It nowhere states that he feared the amulet. You're reading that into it. It is nowhere in the text.

So Kun didn't fear dead? Sure...



http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_40_09.jpg

I very much doubt he's takling about the amulet... He's talking about things from Sadow that survived, that could be everything... From another sort of Massasi to another big beast.. It means shit.



If the amulet can destroy him, then why didn't he fear it? He feared dead, being destroyed equals dead.



Look at the scan, does it look like his gripping his wrist? He has both his hands strechted out fully, right next to each other and not one of them is turned, can you grab your wrist without turning one of your arms even slightly, no you can't. Ergo he was using both hands.



Exactly my point, and he still used both hands to power the blast, so why would he create a second amulet that does exactly the same? Now if what you say is true and this all powerful and can destroy everything it touches, and we know he could use both hands then what reason would he have for creating another equally powerful amulet that does exactly the same if one is enough? What reason? None.



And again read what is said, the amulet discharges energy because of his anger. Apparantly that can be in several forms, but there is absolutely no reason to assume that they really did things differently, because there is nothing that says that. If anything there is nothing that shows your theory.



Again, discharge of energy thats what the amulet does. Sometimes in a beam sometimes apparantly in a way that looks differently, you have no prove that its different and that the amulet can do different things. Prove up, you can't.



Quoting things that aren't said now? How nice... And you are saying he was angryer at the beast then at Nadd, whom he hated? Yeah right thats logical.



Yeah I keep telling you that too, you don't listen either.



Already did... Discharge of energy never shown doing anything else...



Of course not, still doesn't speak well for him. And again what would the purpose be of creating the exact same amulet? and why do you assume they are the same when there is no prove that they are the same. However logically he would have no reason to build the exact same amulet, and we see on screen evidence that they do different things. So the onus is on you to prove they are the same when there is no evidence and no logical reason to assume Kun would build the same thing.



Actually Kun is the unknown here, but you get the point I was trying to make. TPM Anakin could have pwned the entire freaking Jedi Council with ease if he had that amulet and was angry.



Did I ever say he was? However knowing things does not make you powerful.



Actually i'm not, he himself says he isn't that great a fighter... The Sith wars were pretty much over after Sadow retreated, what he did after that is against weaker people as Sadow was running most of the Lords were dead and Kressh was dead as well... He couldn't do against somebody with power, and Nomi did it against Ulic with all her power when Ulic was already down for the count, nothing that shows he's incredible. And he himself says he isn't a good fighter and that he doesn't like fighting. No reason to assume he's good.

No, but I am going to say Kun his amulet is just a cheap trick if you ask me... He has it, but its cheap.



No it speaks for his potential and power, is Anakin the most powerful of the PT now, because he has most potential and can get very angry?



We don't see them do the same thing
Kun would have no reason to make an amulet that does what another already can.

And yet you assume that because they look the same they are the same? Prove up, when nothing but your own assumption confirms it.



Glad that you realise that...



Or perhaps Kun made a different amulet... That does different things.



Obi Wan never destroyed a star, OMG that must mean he can.

Dooku never ate a planet, OMG that must mean he can

z0mg fanboyish statement, absence of proof is not proof of absence that is true, in a logical situation. You however say that based on an assumption that I'm fighting you must be right. So an assumption makes an assumption right... Good logic.



Zero? He read Nadd his scrolls, he knew things. He had joined the Dark Side just refused to use it until that time really... And building another one doesn't prove shit as it could have been and likely was a completely different amulet with different powers.



He wasn't? How would you call his dead then?? Not life threathening at all... No... And I never said he couldn't, I said he wouldn't until the very last moment because he simply couldn't control it all that well.



you know I keep hearing these excuses in debates, you prove up no you prove up. You know what, I'm not even going to argue like that anymore, you prove up i'll prove up. Or drop the point and admit you can't.



G-Canon fact? What the hell is that quote? Who said it, where is it quoted from? How is it G-Canon... and again if you would use logic you would see that the stadium simply isn't big enough to hold a million people. Go to a big stadium on earth, look from one side to the other and look down. Try to see the person standing there, i'm telling you. You won't. Ulic standing up high is only downplaying the size of the stadium really, because the higher he would be the easier it would be to see. And we can clearly see the entire stadium.




Source for this so called G-Canon fact?? The scan disproves it though.



So it doesn't destroy everything at once, as the beast was still in tact not much later... QED



Actually you were the one doing that, I just gave another possibility, i'm not stating either one to be true. I'm saying you don't know and you claiming that it must have been another amulet is unsupported and bullshit.



Unless of course it was just a simple move of the force that a manipulation of energy like we have seen many Jedi do... You don't know the specifics, claiming that it will work beyond all doubt is foolish.




No they aren't, they are heavily biased... Based on wrong information and opinions, and often wrong. Logical deduction something you love so much is only ever allowed in TOTJ threads, i'm getting sick and tired of your blatant fanboyism. And you thinking Exar Kun rules surpreme above all others, with ridiculious assumptions. That aren't proven in anything but your own mind.

Why is this still a debate? DN Luke beats Kun that has already been settled

Actually that hasn't been settled at all, I haven't seen anybody prove anything for DN Luke... Nothing, no statement no debate nothing about his power.

Again then, who wins?

I'm going to say Exar Kun, but thats because i have no information on Luke.

One thing: Fishy, there's over one million systems in the Republic as of the PT, along with over fifty million colonies and the like. Even if we were to assume that a fraction of those existed in Kun's time, and only half of those in turn had present senators, that's likely a million people or more. And you're forgetting one important detail (While haggling the number of people in the room, which is ridiculously petty)- this doesn't prove his highest possible limit of control; it shows his highest shown instance of controlling people. Even if it was a mere 500,000, that's a considerable amount of people held in thrall effortlessly. Also, Kun picks up the chancellor with one hand and uses him as a damn puppet. Even while maintaining this, he did not fear the present jedi, including the mighty Vodo. This kind of power and control is simply mindblowing, regardless of how much you don't like it. You can rant on and on about green lightning and Revan baking primitives with a wave of his hand, but this kind of power is ridiculous. Kun > revan, and most likely > DN Luke. When push comes to shove, Kun would destroy Luke in saber combat. He trumped over 500 years of duelling experience in a single ten minute period without so much as getting nervous or breaking a sweat. Hell, he hammered right through a staff made stronger than a lightsaber using the small one handed handle of his lightsaber. That kind of physical strength is nuts.

Kun has this.

Kun did that as a Padawan too... The stick isn't all powerful you know, and Vodo isn't the only that used a stick either btw:

And I never ever claimed that DN Luke would beat Kun or that Revan would beat Kun and I am not claiming it now. I am simply saying that perhaps the amulet isn't as powerful as we think, and that the second amulet isn't the same as the first. That is what I am arguing, i'm not even arguing the winner of this fight. I'm just trying to clear up some wrong idea's about Kun his power. Or at least to see if I can.

And Janus, 500.000 people is still a hell of a lot more then we can see and logically guess at. That number is also based on an assumption, and if you look at the picture it doesn't even seem full.

Originally posted by Fishy
Kun did that as a Padawan too... The stick isn't all powerful you know, and Vodo isn't the only that used a stick either btw:

Actually, the staff IS pointed out to be stronger than a lightsaber by the narrator. I consider that evidence enough. The fact that Kun smashed right through one effortlessly with no balance or leverage on his lightsaber is damn incredible.



I would assume that both amulets are similar in function. And I'd like to point out that all ancient Sith Lords apparently have them, from Marka Ragnos to Naga Sadow to Kudo Kressh. Even if only one of those can replicate such blasts (Or perhaps do even more in the hands of someone who made it!) that is more than enough firepower to demolish most force users. In fact, the secondary glove may even work as an absorbtion artifact to counter such a generated attack, explaining why the ancient Sith didn't readily use it against one another. But I'm just speculating at this point. We know one of them was damn uber. The other one can possibly do the same.



http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_13.jpg

That stadium, though poorly detailed, is about the size if not larger than the Pontiac Silverdome in Michigan, where I grew up. That is the location of THE largest indoor sporting event of all time, with numbers well into the hundred thousands (Though the exact number eludes me now.) The ancient Colliseum in Rome was thought to have housed between 500 and 750 hundred thousand people at a time, and it's smaller than this. Even if only half of that place is full (Which is ridiculous since all senators live on Coruscant most of the time and this is a time of war when all should attend) this is a LOT of people. And the fact that he effortlessly controlled them and WTFpwned the greatest jedi master in the era and walked out with his apprentice is goddamn uber.

Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, the staff IS pointed out to be stronger than a lightsaber by the narrator. I consider that evidence enough. The fact that Kun smashed right through one effortlessly with no balance or leverage on his lightsaber is damn incredible.

Yes it was more powerful then a lightsaber, as it could stand up to a lightsaber, it doesn't have the cutting power of a lightsaber however we know that much. Kun smashed through it twice.

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_36_28.jpg

Two lightsabers against my poor stick? It seems Vodo his stick could deal with one but not with two lightsaber attacks and thats what broke it...



Indeed, its an assumption one that could be true, but one that has no real prove. I want to be sure on this matter...




You mean this pontiac silverdome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Silverdome

82.000 people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloseum

That coloseum able to seat 50.000 people

Thats not even close to a million, the pontiac would need to be 10x as big to come close, the coloseum 20x... It simply isn't.

And Coruscant had just been invaded if I were a senator I would leave. A lot of people would have died and people from other systems would have to travel there to join, not every senator lives on coruscant. In TPM Amidalla travels to Coruscant, she doesn't come there often. a 1000 years earlier, Empress Teta travels to Coruscant and back for meetings... Its not impossible that the times have changed in between that. But with hyperspace travel I see no reason for people to live there, or to be there constantly.

Also I wouldn't really say Vodo is the greatest Jedi of his time Odan Urr seems to be the grandmaster, and he doesn't seem to be the greatest lightsaber fighter either. If anything the Jedi Order was so completely different back then then it was only fourty years later that is hard to say what his rank was or skill compared to others. We do know however that Nomi became a legendary leader and that Odan Urr lead Jedi assembly's, they didn't even wait for Vodo in one of the most important one's around, so its seems doubtful that he would have really been the leader of the Jedi Order.

Seems more a testament to Kun's ability than to Vodo's stick. It's canonically called "more powerful than a lightsaber." This does not necessarily mean more durable or more poignant than a lightsaber.



One amulet had this ability, the ancient Sith were adorned with artifacts, most of them not even named or mentioned.



Neither of those are as large as the stadium in question. Just taking a look at the corner passageways, those are large stone corridors that look like nothing. The center field would be several times the size of a football field.



Empress Teta had her own Empire to tend to, she usually didn't become involved in Coruscant's affairs. Sadow just happened to attack and nearly take out both Cinnagar and Corsucant.



If Odan-Urr was the grandmaster, that's even more interesting, as Kun took him out with a wave of his hand.

Originally posted by Fishy
Yes it was more powerful then a lightsaber, as it could stand up to a lightsaber, it doesn't have the cutting power of a lightsaber however we know that much. Kun smashed through it twice.


Two lightsabers against my poor stick? It seems Vodo his stick could deal with one but not with two lightsaber attacks and thats what broke it...

Nice image. Too bad that isn't the one where Kun killed Vodo. In that one he smashed right through the staff with just his double bladed lightsaber, which has one small handle.



Again, missing the point. He has one that's that uber. If he can possibly make two, that's just disgusting. But one's enough.



Aside from the fact that you're still overemphasizing the numbers issue, the Pontiac Silverdome isn't really -that- big inside like this place is. I've been there. You can still see the details of people's faces more than halfway up. The comic scan shows an angel hanging just above the senate room, and you can't even see anyone standing in the middle of the floor. You could be hanging in the rafters at the Silverdome and still see such detail (After all, many of the highest costing boxes are up higher than I was sitting). Also, unlike the Silverdome, this place is more square or rectangular. There's plenty of room for such people. Take a look at this close up of the Chancellor's podium, the thing in the middle:

http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sylvarnoconsequence2mj.jpg

Likewise, this place is filled to the brim:

http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kunleavesthesenate1me.jpg




You're not a senator. Moot observation.



Actually, considering the events that had taken place, it would be ludicrous for most of the senators to NOT be on Coruscant. They were punishing a former jedi for war crimes.



Vodo is visibly the best fighter and has an amazing control of the force. This has been done to the death in another thread. Later on when I have the time I'll reiterate this, but it's been established pretty securely that Vodo is above Yoda by far and head and shoulders above even his elder peers. You saying "you don't think" he's great doesn't convince anyone, so please try to substantiate in the future.

Originally posted by Wesker
Nice image. Too bad that isn't the one where Kun killed Vodo. In that one he smashed right through the staff with just his double bladed lightsaber, which has one small handle.

No its an image where Kun smashed through Vodo his stick... As a Padawan with two lightsabers, which proves my point.



again missing the point, why would he create a second identical amulet? Why would any Sith for that matter whats the purpose?



I'm debating the million people thing, I am tired of people overrating certain actions while downplaying others just for the heck of it because it supports them. I am simply saying there couldn't have been a million people there.

And what do those pictures prove? That a Stadium looks huge when your standing at the bottom no shit, and thats its really filled. Well another scan shows parts look empty, so that doesn't prove much..



I am a human being however with human emotions, and because of that I wouldn't have been there... There are probably some senators that feel the same way.



And why would they need the entire Senate for that? If anything the chancellor has already said Ulic will be executed.



Visibly the best fighter? Tell me who have we seen Vodo fight except for Kun who he beat when Kun was a Padawan and then got his stcik broken and again Kun when he lost... How is that visibly the best fighter in the order, we have seen Nomi kill more then that. We have seen Thon do better that, Arca, Ulic, Cay... And all those guys fought nobody's... Until the Sith wars...

Originally posted by IKC
Glentract, have you read all of TOTJ?

Good job dodging the question. Answer it in your next post with a 'yes' or 'no' question, please.

I, unlike you, will answer you question the first time you ask. I have read parts of it. I also have the Essentail Guides, which even if they aren't a higher level of canon then the comics themselves(even though I do not believe they are a lower level) have not been shown to contradict the actual comics in any way. I would sure like to see your source that is official on the NJO and Dark Nest.

Originally posted by IKC
Nice condescension from a 14 year old, Glentract. I own the book and have read it; can you say as much?

Yes, the book has been owned by one person or another in my family for over 20 years. I have read it twice, actually, but the second time I read it was almost five years ago.

And even though I haven't read the book in years, I at least know the backround on the things in the book. Those things you called inconsistentcies really are not inconsistent with the rest of EU as I have shown several post ago. If you would, take the time to read and think about my answers, and then once again you should try to prove that the book is uncanon.

Originally posted by IKC
Except Obi-Wan mysteriously is unable to do so in ESB. He even states that he's unable to. Contradicted by the movies, not canon. QED.

Where did Obi-wan state that he was unable to do so? And did you ever think about the fact that Obi-wan's spirit was far older and weaker then it was in ESB?

Why do you always type 'QED' at the end of certain paragraphs?

Originally posted by IKC
lol. Prove up, where is this stated? Do I have to prove to you that the Chronology cannot create canon, again?

When you prove that the Chronology isn't canon the first time, then you can do so again. It's stated on page 117, lines 3-5 in the NEGtC.

Originally posted by IKC
He's able to use telekinesis with a fair degree of competence.

Specifics? I want actual instances of this, not, "bUt lukee use teh forcE!!1"/

Originally posted by IKC
Jesus, Glentract. I just proved to you that the guides are not canon because they do not come from his movie production department. G-Canon is anything that comes from Lucas. The guides did not come from Lucas. Ergo, the guides are not G-Canon, much less any other kind of canon.

I like how you conveniently ignored that I showed how absurd your logic is with my Lucasarts example.

I already stated that they aren't G-canon, but the next level down, just like the books and comics. And for what must be the tenth time, if the guides don't contradict the comics to begin with, what does it matter if one is higher then the other, the state the same thing.

Originally posted by IKC
lol!

Glentract, guess what? That was a scan of the compilation book. That one has all of DLotS in it. According to your fanboy logic, that makes TOTJ G-Canon.

Good thing for you that I don't subscribe to that bullshit "logic."

You're just being pathetic. Why don't you try getting some sleep.

Originally posted by IKC
And then I quoted Lightsnake stating the same things you just stated. Good job, buddy.

Still waiting for an actual response.

Originally posted by IKC
Did you... read the quote?

Have you read any of what I have said? Just because one small part is wrong, that doesn't mean the entire thing is wrong.

Originally posted by IKC
Because the Chronology is not and can not create canon, your point collapses. The Chronology cannot, as well, contradict the primary source material they derive their information from, or else the primary source takes precedence over the guide.

You made a horrible assumption.

The guides don't contradict the comics.

Originally posted by IKC
Says the boy who thinks he can dictate what is canon.

I'm the one who thinks I can dictate canon? I think you should take a look in the mirror, buddy.

Originally posted by IKC
TOTJ is not hyperbolic, for one. It makes several objective statements: Marka Ragnos, for example, is the (definitive) most powerful of the (again, definitive) most powerful.

But because DE describes DE Luke and Sidious as godlike beings, etc etc, and later those two are put into context with the people of TOTJ (because TOTJ was written later) their descriptions are retconned.

How does it retcon is? Is having the ability to destroy capital ships with the force weaker then what the Ancient Sith did? If so, how? What exactly makes them weaker?

Originally posted by IKC
And if you had read the book, you'd see that they did.

I still want you to describe them. Go ahead, do it.

Originally posted by IKC
First of all, your analogy is flawed since absence of proof is not proof of absence. Lars could easily have told Obi-Wan that as, for example, Obi-Wan is handing off Luke.

You still have to prove that he did.

Originally posted by IKC
And I never said the entire comic was false, you do have a reading comprehension problem. I stated that many of the descriptions of power were made false and Sidious' meetings with Sith spirits were called into question because it was written at a time when the Sith were only supposed to have existed two thousand rather than five thousand BBY.

You haven't showed how these descriptions are false. All you have done is said they are flase and then say they are retconned by later sources. That, although it might sound like proof, is not proof. An actual occurence would be proof.

And since the Sith Empire being 2000 years old has been retconned, then we now know who he was really talking to, don't we?

Originally posted by IKC
But you do not know that all of them "liked" Sidious, and you do not know that Ragnos himself liked Sidious, because Ragnos did not yet exist.

Ragnos not existing is retconned. And even if not every Sith liked Sidious, is that any different then with Kun? I seem to remember Nadd not esactly liking him.

Originally posted by IKC
See above.

Ditto.

Originally posted by IKC
I just told you. One of them was Exar and Ulic's amulets meeting. That is made very clear at the end of DLotS.

I don't remember that. Can you provide a passage or quote or somethingt? It seemed to me that him being there was what made the amulets act like they did. I think we have a false cause and effect on your part here.

Originally posted by IKC
Except you have no proof that he lorded over those who were already dead, nor do you have any proof that spirits can harm one another. You assume that since he lords over the living then he must lord over the dead, but this assumption begs for proof. So prove up.

What would make spirits unable to harm other spirits?

If Ragnos wasn't the top dog of the spirits, then what does Ragnos liking him prove? It's not like there were many other capable Sith for him to pick from.

Originally posted by IKC
How about you provide some context? I remember your bullshit about "zOMG, Kyp killed teh leviathan!!1!1!ONE"

This just goes to prove that you really don't know jack about Luke at this point. The person I am referring to is Raynar Thul, who drew power from the Killik nests. The Killiks inhabited approximately 375 nest before the end of Dark Nest. Now, it doesn't appear the he drew as much power from each individual as Sidous did, but he did have a far larger base of power to draw from, making him far more powerful then DE Sidous.

Originally posted by IKC
This is another Lightsnake argument.

There is no proof that Exar got jack shit from the massassi. We only know that their sacrifices were needed for the ritual to free his spirit to take place.

And just because it is something that Lightsnake said it is wrong?

Try and answer this, why would all of the Massassi die if Exar didn't draw power from them?

Originally posted by IKC
Feat wars are a logical fallacy. Provide some convincing context and then show how he'd beat Kun, who likely has much greater lightsaber skill than Luke.

Oh yes, "who likely has greater saber skills" is a great argument. Here's all the argument I need, Luke pwned Raynar.

continued in next post.

Originally posted by IKC
Feat wars are a logical fallacy. If I participated in feat wars, I'd easily answer this with Kun's sith magic spell, the one that froze the entire Senate of at least one million beings and sustained itself while he used the Chancellor of the Republic as a puppet and WTFPWNed Vodo Baas.

Fishy has already shown that your 1 million Senators argument is crap. Joruus, a weakling next to DN Luke, controlled tens of thousands of people(controlled in the same way that Exar controlled the Supreme Chancellor) for a extended amount of time with ease and was considering controlling them for the entire trip to Coruscant, which according to Thrawn was 5 days away.

And how amazing is it that he pwned an old man with a walking stick.

Originally posted by IKC
Lol!

Feat wars are a logical fallacy, but you just shot yourself in the foot.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

There you go, all the Jedi in the galaxy. Way more than Luke had, too.

Kun didn't personally call all of them to him though.

Originally posted by IKC
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Wanna run that by me again?

You call that proof? Pathetic. In no way does that prove that it would work again DN Luke.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun wins. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Unproved. Please try again.

Originally posted by Fishy
No its an image where Kun smashed through Vodo his stick... As a Padawan with two lightsabers, which proves my point.

Really? So your point is that Kun is so strong, even as a padawan he can break a staff stronger than a lightsaber? Impressive! Thanks for proving a point for the opposition.



What kind of bullshit redirection is this? He has one. It's enough. If he has two, he can probably blow up the entire senate building. Either way, he wins just about every fight excepting ancient sith. Period. Thanks for proving another point for us.



Scans show that there CAN be a million people there, as does the number of member systems and common sense. You want to make a mountain out of a molehill with Revan, but when Exar Kun does something better you downplay it. That's biased and ridiculous. You're trying to tear down Kun to boost up Revan.



Don't be silly, Fishy. The first scan shows Kun ascending the chancellor's podium. It's monstrous in size, and that is shown in the other scan to be minute in the stadium itself. This chamber is a LOT bigger than the Pontiac Silverdome, Fishy. I've been in it. I know.



Fishy, the chancellor isn't even human. What makes you think every single senator was human and acted like one? And again, your personal observation on your own supposed behavior is moot.



Oh, so you're saying contrary to the size of the senatorial chamber, the number of systems and colonies with representation, and the fact that most if not all senators would need to be present for such a trial is simply not the case cuz.... you think otherwise? Any proof for your side yet?



Vodo trained fighters for the better part of 600 years, Fishy. Kun was his best in all that time. He's clearly the most martial of the jedi masters. Even if Odan was superior, he was -easily- killed by Kun. Easily. Kun is leagues above any of the jedi masters, and they are in turn leagues above even Yoda. What part of all this is eluding you?

Btw, QED.

Whoa, a long debate, goodwork between, IKC, Wesker, Fishy and Glentract...but noone seems to have proven who wins? more like everyone has proved the fact the amulet is not that uber...