yoda, sidious vs ragnos?

Advent

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah. Right. Where did Lucas say this now? Especially because in the movies, the Dark Side is 'quicker' and that's all.

No, in the movies, the dark side is stronger, too; you are not restricted by any means, there are more devastating powers that you can use at will, and you can unleash your rage. If you solely watched the movies, you may not know that, but everyone here should know that. Plus, George Lucas has stated that the dark side > light side, on at least two occasions, I believe, here's one:

Originally posted by George Lucas on AotC DVD Commentary
"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

Now, as I said in a previous post regarding the established fact that the dark side is the more powerful side of the Force, if you disregard your destiny (that you will eventually fall), then it's clear the path to power is the dark side. The light side is only better in the sense that, in the long run, it won't lead to your undoing, but inherently, the dark side is stronger.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And btw, about twenty Sith Lords fell before four Jedi knights....some vaunted power of the Ancients there Which is completely irrelevant, as I don't remember any of them being anything more than minions conjured up out of thin air by the will of Sadow. Unless I'm thinking of something totally different, which I hope is the case.

General Kenobl

Hey genius, read the thread wink

Guess what it says? OMG, Yoda AND Sidious vs. Ragnos. Do you know what I wrote? Can you comprehend English? I said Yoda and Sidious, not Yoda or Sidious.

Jesus Christ (pardon my using-the-lord-in-vain, but I am not Christian) Darth Sexy!

darthsith19

Yoda and Sidious win, but Ragnos puts up an okay fight.

General Kenobl

An okay fight? Even NJO Luke would be hardpressed against Yoda and Sidious. I say ownage.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is completely irrelevant, as I don't remember any of them being anything more than minions conjured up out of thin air by the will of Sadow. Unless I'm thinking of something totally different, which I hope is the case.

Lightsnake likes to base the overall abilities of the ancient sith on those pathetic minions, so you're right. And lightsnake, the darkside is stronger. As I've stated, on most occasions a sith lord can defeat a Jedi master.

LORDSIDIOUS01

Yoda and Sidious prevail.

Lightsnake

Faunus: Most of the troops were illusions, but quite a few of them were not. And it was pretty much that army vs. four Jedi.

Advent: Ah, didn't know that quote. However, it does fall to the obvious that a top master of the light down the long run can defeat a true master of the dark

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Faunus: Most of the troops were illusions, but quite a few of them were not. And it was pretty much that army vs. four Jedi.

Advent: Ah, didn't know that quote. However, it does fall to the obvious that a top master of the light down the long run can defeat a true master of the dark

We were not talking about the long run and you know ths lightsnake, otherwise you would have NOT brought up the example you brought up.

((The_Anomaly))

Originally posted by General Kenobl
An okay fight? Even NJO Luke would be hardpressed against Yoda and Sidious. I say ownage.

This is pretty true erm

I don't see Raggy putting up that good a fight really. Not against the likes of Yoda and Sids. (or even either one by themselves in all honesty)

Kadesh

Do we even know what ragnos can do? We do know he is powerful because luke admitted in JA that he would need the entire academy to stop a physical ressurected ragnos, I think he directly implied that he could not stop ragnos alone

General Kenobl

How does Luke know how powerful Ragnos might be when resurrected? He's never faced him before. I think Skywalker was trying to give out an impression that Ragnos might be tough, and for the safe side, don't risk anything against him.

Darth Sexy

Lets see. Most (if not all) of the techniques the sith use were derived from the ancient sith. Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the ancient sith, therefore it's a PRETTY GOOD chance that Ragnos knows most of the ancient sith techniques, which would be more than any other sith lord knows besides Sidious. Wow, the anti ancient sith rhetoric is ridiculous.

General Kenobl

WTF do you not get Darth Sexy? Yes, Ragnos knows all the Ancient Sith techniques. But these techniques were passed on from Ancient spirits and holocrons to future generations like Revan and Bane. Jeez man.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by General Kenobl
WTF do you not get Darth Sexy? Yes, Ragnos knows all the Ancient Sith techniques. But these techniques were passed on from Ancient spirits and holocrons to future generations like Revan and Bane. Jeez man.

What is your point? I'm saying that more than likely, the inventors of these techniques were indeed the best with them(with the exception of Sidious). I am also saying you don't know which techniques were passed down by holocrons but more than likely, not all of them. So it's logical to assume the ancients had more techniques in their arsenal than all the holocrons they passed down through the ages.

Lightsnake

How's that logical? Later Sith were able to refine them quite a bit better

General Kenobl

The Ancient Sith invented many Dark Side Force techniques. They passed many of theset techniques through holocrons or by spirits teaching them to future Sith Lords.

Yes, Ragnos probably knew a lot of Dark Side Force moves. However, that doesn't he mastered these techniques better than powerful Sith Lords like Revan and Bane or Sidious and Vader.

kamikz

Originally posted by Kadesh
Do we even know what ragnos can do? We do know he is powerful because luke admitted in JA that he would need the entire academy to stop a physical ressurected ragnos, I think he directly implied that he could not stop ragnos alone

Actually, Luke said right before that he couldn't possibly know what Ragnos could do, I agree with Kenobi that he was just being on the safe side....

Gideon

This is ridiculous. Why would the Ancient Sith automatically be the most powerful, DS, simply because they invented most of the techniques? Do we have any proof that Ragnos and his ilk specifically came up with them all? Because I could just as easily say that any dark Jedi or Sith Lord prior to Ragnos would crush him in a fight. It seems as if you are subscribing to the assertion that simply because they invented the techniques or simply because they are "older". In which case, neither event is true. If we are to base their power simply because they predate the current Sith and their techniques derive from the Ancient Sith lineage, then understand that it also applies to the Sith - and that Ragnos is automatically weaker than those who predate him.

And if you go for the "invented techniques" route, let it be understood that Prodigal and Lightsnake are correct in that thousands upon thousands of generations of Sith Lords have had their lifetimes to refine and improve these techniques. Technology becomes more cutting edge and more powerful given age and research (the first computer is vastly inferior to today's computers), so why couldn't Force techniques?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
This is ridiculous. Why would the Ancient Sith automatically be the most powerful, DS, simply because they invented most of the techniques? Do we have any proof that Ragnos and his ilk specifically came up with them all? Because I could just as easily say that any dark Jedi or Sith Lord prior to Ragnos would crush him in a fight. It seems as if you are subscribing to the assertion that simply because they invented the techniques or simply because they are "older". In which case, neither event is true. If we are to base their power simply because they predate the current Sith and their techniques derive from the Ancient Sith lineage, then understand that it also applies to the Sith - and that Ragnos is automatically weaker than those who predate him.
So you're saying that all the sith that were somewhat strong or average DIDNT become exponentially more powerful when studying under the ancient sith? Interesting. And yes, I am saying certain techniques were derived from the ancient sith. The only other case we have of someone creating their own, would be Sidious.

Where do we have evidence of techniques being refined? Just as I'm assuming the inventors of these techniques mastered them more than anyone following them, you're assuming that newer=better. What's better to you? Inventing a technique, or studying a holocron of how it is done, maybe or maybe NOT knowing it's full potential/extent, etc. I'm probably not making much sense here as I am rushing this, but I do believe that the inventors of these techniques know their fullest potential more than any others, which is why we have very few cases(if ANY besides Sidious), of people creating their own techniques, or improving the techniques of the ancient sith.

Lightsnake

What evidence do we have of techniques being refined? *Looks at Palpatine, Exar Kun, Nihilus...*

That and basic logic. Things improve eventually

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What evidence do we have of techniques being refined? *Looks at Palpatine, Exar Kun, Nihilus...*

That and basic logic. Things improve eventually

What did Kun and Nihilus refine? As I recall it, Nihilus did what Ragnos' scepter did, except Ragnos' scepter gave force abilities to non force sensitives. I'd say that makes his technique better than Nihilus..

Lightsnake

When did ragnos's scepter suck the life from worlds, now? I'm, curious now....Btw, Tavion discovered it had the ability to empower others....Palpatine could do that, too.

General Kenobl

Marka Ragnos: Descriptions on the legendary Dark Lord

By Prodigal Knight

Biography: Provided from Wookiepedia -

Extra Descriptions # 1: Provided from the Explore the Chronicles of the Old Republic by SW Databank -

Extra Descriptions # 2: TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith written by Kevin Anderson on SW Databank -

Importance of this:

Marka Ragnos is not the strongest Sith Lord. That rank, as of right now, belongs to Darth Sidious. However, he is the strongest Ancient Sith in existence. Through him, the Sith Empire prospered. With his death, they fell.

However, does this mean Marka Ragnos is the 2nd most powerful Sith Lord? Well with future Sith Lords who were able to master the teachings of Ragnos and his Golden Age of Sith to a very high extremity, such as Revan and Bane, we cannot say Ragnos is the 2nd most powerful.

One thing can be determined though. Ragnos is one of THE most powerful Sith Lords ever.

Lee-San28

i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

Gideon

Originally posted by Lee-San28
i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

It's not true, sadly.

General Kenobl

He's not the strongest. He's powerful, but people like Revan could kill him.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by General Kenobl
He's not the strongest. He's powerful, but people like Revan could kill him.

Your opinion becomes irrelevant when you try to pass it off as a fact.

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Your opinion becomes irrelevant when you try to pass it off as a fact.

I don't think that someone in your position ought to be dishing this bit of advice out to others, DS. Prodigal is very right. A lot of your logic is flawed. That the Ancient Sith created some dark side techniques doesn't mean that they have mastered them to a degree that their descendants can't. Thousands and thousands of years of various Sith Lords studying the Force would yield far more results than any single Sith Lord could in his lifetime. If we are to go by your logic, however, then any Sith Lord prior to Ragnos is automatically stronger than him, since the quote you provided has not been proven to encompass the entirety of the dark side Force users and Sith Lords prior to him.

jollyjim311

Originally posted by Lee-San28
i disagree i find it true that Ragnos is the most powerfull Starwars Chariter in egzistance

That would be Luke. Ragnos has shown nothing. What are the sources for those quotes?

And, really, get serious, "egzistance"? disgust

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't think that someone in your position ought to be dishing this bit of advice out to others, DS. Prodigal is very right. A lot of your logic is flawed. That the Ancient Sith created some dark side techniques doesn't mean that they have mastered them to a degree that their descendants can't. Thousands and thousands of years of various Sith Lords studying the Force would yield far more results than any single Sith Lord could in his lifetime. If we are to go by your logic, however, then any Sith Lord prior to Ragnos is automatically stronger than him, since the quote you provided has not been proven to encompass the entirety of the dark side Force users and Sith Lords prior to him.

It doesn't mean that they can master them to the point that there descendants can't, but we've no evidence that they have, other than Sidious, so while you assume my logic is flawed, it seems to kind of work with reality until we have another case. And your logic is just as flawed stating that time=more power. Because you see, you say that all of these sith have had thousands of years to refine techniques but do you know what REALLY has happened in the SW universe? Every sith who has yearned for ultimate power, has looked to the teachings of the ancient sith. Over all 5,000 years. So everytime someone new wants to gain power, he learns from them and that's it. Then someone ELSE comes along. So my logic seems to make a LOT of sense here, because yours sure as hell doesn't. Refining the techniques would mean they would learn from each other and from each other's mistakes in the past 5,000 years, when instead they all look to the same ancient sith teachings and go from there. So when they constantly start over, the ancients created the techniques and more than likely mastered them. And again we have had many arguments about this, Ragnos is the greatest and most powerful ancient sith. Your argument is flawed because there would no need to call him "The most powerful", or even "The most powerful of the most powerful", if he was the most powerful of that era because by definition, a DLOTS is the most powerful of the sith. Now when they say "most powerful of the most powerful", that means the most powerful of the ancient sith, that means from 6900 BBY to 5000 BBY. I don't understand why the anti ancient sith nonsense gets in the way of Logic.

Gideon

No, DS. You still have yet to provide evidence that Ragnos's power transcends that of "any Sith Lord or dark side user" prior to him. You base your position on Ragnos based on a single quote and that quote mentions nothing about anything prior. That applied only for his time, and you can't assume otherwise.

Once again, the time utilized by all the Sith after Ragnos and up 'til Sidious by far opens more options for improvement than any of the Ancient Sith's own. Again, you assume that nothing has improved with the passage of time which is absurd - considering how, according to Palpatine, Plagueis mastered an ability that was unheard of prior. So, new techniques were invented and Revan's knowledge apparently transcended the entire library on Korriban which is obviously from the Ancient Sith lineage as well.

You are subscribing the ridiculous notion that simply because these arts and techniques originated with the Ancient Sith that they must obviously have a superior mastery of the dark side than anybody. I suppose the guy who invented the computer has a greater mastery of technology than the scientists and technicians of today? We've had the time and resources to improve technology, so it is very odd to assume that the Force doesn't apply.

And as for the "anti-Ancient Sith" nonsense, I'd like to point out that you're calling a guy who has never been featured alive and only has second-hand accounts of power as "the number two most powerful Sith ever". That reeks of a strong "pro-Ancient Sith" argument coming from you, and I'm about as much an anti-Ancient Sith person as you are a pro-Ancient Sith person.

Especially when you consider that we've had more hype about Revan and his powers than we have from Ragnos. So, Revan kicks Ragnos's ass in terms of "second hand power accounts".

Kadesh

Didnt KJA said that exar kun > ragnos? And revan is pretty much as powerful as kun is, and POD even made naga revans equal

But one thing to clear up, Luke knew ragnos was powerful and he indirectly stated he would not be able to face him alone. Plat JKA to find out

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
No, DS. You still have yet to provide evidence that Ragnos's power transcends that of "any Sith Lord or dark side user" prior to him. You base your position on Ragnos based on a single quote and that quote mentions nothing about anything prior. That applied only for his time, and you can't assume otherwise.
What do you mean assume? I'm making the same logical deduction that you make for your PT Jedi. Why would the quote mean only his time when by ancient sith standards, the DLOTS IS the most powerful? Hmm? And being called the most powerful of the most powerful would obviously refer to the ancient sith era, which was the most powerful era. I do the same crap you do with the PT Jedi, so stop with the double standards.

You've yet to prove any technique was improved from the sith lords. We're not talking about Sidious as he's already the top dog for a reason, we're talking about everybody else, which there's no evidence for. Not to mention you don't know WHAT was contained inside the library on Korriban, considering the planet has been rummaged through and stripped of most of its treasures and secrets by the sith and jedi 3,000 years earlier, so that's not a good argument. Not to mention I've already made it quite clear that everybody tried to learn from the ancients, so we don't see any development nor advancement with any techniques, unless its Sidious. So while there isn't concrete evidence, I've provided ample proof for Ragnos. You've yet to provide proof as to how and when these so called techniques were improved and mastered by others.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges my friend because once again, once a sith wanted to become powerful, he studied ancient sith techniques. We have NO evidence stating that any sith other than Sidious improved and mastered ancient sith techniques more than the ancients, so your notion that newer is better is just as ridiculous.

Was I denying that I was ancient sith? At least I am somewhat able to justify my position.

Yes, according to you, more sources=more power. Except Revan studied these techniques for what, 2-3 years before being turned into a Jedi again? And this surpasses Ragnos' 150 year reign over the ancient sith and the study and creation of techniques? Yea you're right, you are anti ancient sith.

xxXAcStylesXxx

So what, more time does NOT = more power this has been proved time and time again in Star Wars, Luke defeated Vader, Vader having 30 or so years of experience with the force, Luke having a couple years with months of actual training. Exar defeated Vodo, while a padawan, while Vodo was 600 years old(far surpassing Ragnos) Sidious was a tie in power with Yoda, Sidious being around 60, Yoda being around 800. Sidious was more powerful then Dooku even though Dooku was 20 years his senior. The list goes on and on of some young powerful Jedi/Sith, destroying and older more experienced master.

If Revan even knew ONE of the ancient Sith power and he was (which he is) exponentially more powerful in the force, then he'd wipe his ass with Ragnos. Big deal they made all these powers, they were probably too weak by themselves for them to make a difference in battle, hence why they use all these items to augment there power (Gauntlets, Amulets, Specters, Ships, Chambers, Crystals)

All logic points to the Ancients being not so hot in the force without the aid of there items, look at Naga Sadow, the second most powerful ancient Sith in his ONE stunning show of force power WITHOUT the aid of some item he lobs one brick at such pathetic speeds that it fails to draw any reasonable amount of blood, or kill/knock him out.

Want a real logical deduction, they use these items to compensate for there overall shitty connection to the force. And they wouldn't last against someone (like Revan) who has there knowledge AND a godly force connection.

Darth Sexy

They used the amulets to channel and amplify their power, that suddenly makes them weak? I don't see anybody doing what they did WITHOUT the amulets. And they created the ancient sith techniques so they are hot in the force, whether you like it not. OMG He threw only a brick he MUST suck. Again, has it ever occured to you that the reason they didn't go around using their ridiculous powers is because they also built up defenses for them?

Shitty connection? Wow, what a logical and compelling argument. I guess you haven't read Nai's theory on the ancient sith, which makes sense but I won't use it in this debate because you don't have much of an argument. Creating amulets to channel and amplify force energy obviously takes some skill because we don't see anyone after them doing it, because they DONT have the knowledge. And again, since nobody did what they did without the amulets, there's no real argument here is there.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Yup.

I don't see them doing what they did without the amulets.

So...because they created something doesn't mean they could use it to the same affect that a more powerful force user could.

Pretty much considering all the destructive unfathomable power your trying to attribute them to.

Oh yes such power defensive that can't even block one small brick come on roll eyes (sarcastic)

Do I care? Referencing anther USER does not make your argument correct, why should I care what some other USER thinks or there "logical theories" on Star Wars.

Really you do? "Liek they created the powers so ahh they must be more powerful!" and "Read Nai's theory"

And that proves your point how? So because they can create tools of the the dark side that means that there FORCE connection is strong roll eyes (sarcastic)

So because they did a feat that even THEY couldn't do without an amulet/specter/ship, because someone else from a anther era can't duplicate the Ancients are stronger? LOL.

Nihlius draining a planet trumps Ragnos specter.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yup.
I guess everybody else is weak too then.

Notice how I said that they created amulets to channel and amplify their abilities and that NOBODY knew how to do what they did without the amulets, so that doesn't make them weak. In fact nobody created amulets after them either.

No, I don't think Sadow could have used it to the extent Kun had but that was the only instance. I am pretty sure though that Sadow knew the full potential of his own amulet, whereas Kun might have not.

Take any destructive unfathomable dark side technique, and see where it was derived from.

I guess Yoda was a ***** then because he couldn't stop Force lightning and Sidious was a ***** because he couldn't stop a force push LOL.. What a compelling argument, care to try again? I guess you missed the part where the mountain started shaking when Kressh got angry.

So far I've provided a much more compelling argument than you have. I'm just referencing his work so you can read it and understand it, for your own benefit, before spewing off nonsense.

And as i've stated before, we don't see on any occasion where a force user took the power of the ancient sith, and took it to a whole new level, unless you're talking about Sidious, who's already #1.

No but it helps being of the sith race who's connection to the force is strong, and it helps interbreeding with powerful dark Jedi. When you roll your eyes, make sure you have a point.

Wow, this doesn't even deserve an answer.

I guess bigboy missed the entire concept of KOTOR 2. Here's a pop quiz, where did Nihilus learn his technique? And where was the technique derived from? I'll let you figure this one out.

xxXAcStylesXxx

No just them.

And again how is that a reflection on there personal power? What is the point of the amulets and other items? To amplify power. Why would they need to amplify there power with trinkets if they already had these "1337" powers, Sidious didn't need it, Revan, Bane, Sion, Nihlius, Traya, Kas'im, Plagieous, Jacen didn't need it.

Why didn't they create an amulet, because they didn't know how, the art had obviously been lost, so how is that now a reflection of power?

Again, what is your point? Because they created them they must be stronger? No, there powers in the hands of more powerful force users become more powerful themselves. Thats why Nihlius could drain worlds instantly and the most we see the specter do is drain individuals, thats why there is an ancient power that the Sith created to stop and prolong death(What Annedue and Sion use) while Plageoius was able to do that, stop others from dieing and possibly create life.

Also your under this "since they created them and no one else did they're stronger" crap, when have any of the new sith(other then Banes era and Kun who isolated himself on Yavin) had the time to develop powers out of there ass, They are in a state of perpetual warfare with the Republic/ Jedi forces, where as the Ancients had the time to sit around on there asses for what like 500 years and develop powers.

I guess the logic that Sidious and Yoda are two the most powerful force users ever never occurred to you, where as Sadow and Kressh...not so much, them we have the fact that Yoda and Sidious weren't throwing around bricks at each other, a brick that if thrown hard enough could crush someones skull, while it barley manged to draw blood from Ludo and he couldn't even block it where as we see even the lames Jedi being able to block thing moving at them (see Every Jedi ever whos blocked a blaster shot)

Oh wow mountains were shaking, too bad he can't apply that power into you know combat, to bad he could apply that power into creating a force shield, to bad he couldn't apply that power into enhancing his reflexes to bring his over sized and weighted sword up to block a brick.

No you haven't "They made em first therefore they = ubah" is not a compelling argument. Your speaking of the dude like he's some historical scholar, please, this is Star Wars, and in the end he's just anther random user on a forum, and really before you go "Well Nai's theory of Ancient Sith civilization and power disagrees with you" You have to post it first and then give me any reason why I should give a shit.

As listed above

Plagious
Nihlius
Kun
And then we have again the fact that we've never seen the ancient Sith do 90% of the things they are attributed to, Show me a scan of an Ancients force storm, show me a quote talking about there force draining abilities, show me a picture of them recreating there bodies on sheer will alone, show me them using thought bombs, show me.

And that saves them from users who are described as blinding in the force? In the big scheme of thing when we have people who are created entirely of the force, called blinding, cheat death, are wounds in the force and so on and so forth they are pretty weak.

Here something for you to chew on, Kreia says Nihlius power CANNOT be learned, that its instinct, the force drain without a ritual that the ancient Sith would be attributed with would be Trayas draining of the masters. NOT Nihilus world devastating power, so little guy before you make an ass of yourself make sure you know the facts.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Sidious and Yoda are two *of* the most powerful force users ever

thats what its supposed to say.

xxXAcStylesXxx

This was such a ridicules point I feel I need to expound on it more, You do realise that In the Sidious/Yoda duel, they did pretty much the same feat Sadow and Ludo did, but to a MUCH higher extent, Sidious hurls pods at Yoda, these pods were moving faster, were MUCH heavier, and moving downwards. Now Yoda not dodged but he caught one in mid flight with the force, spinned it and tossed it back.

Now you want me to respect and acknowledge the power of the Ancient Sith when its supposed 2nd most powerful member can't even dodge, stop or block a BRICK that wasn't even thrown that fast. Please DS your better then this.

General Kenobl

Very true.

jollyjim311

Yeah, DS, the whole "Ancients are Gods" is nothing but a cool idea. The feats and quotes clearly show they aren't as good as other generations, and are insignificant as far as personal power goes.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, DS, the whole "Ancients are Gods" is nothing but a cool idea. The feats and quotes clearly show they aren't as good as other generations, and are insignificant as far as personal power goes.

Who said Gods? I said it was the pinnacle of sith knowledge and power, and all the sith after them used THEIR knowledge and THEIR power. Nobody but SIDIOUS created their own techniques, unless you have proof(you don't). It's not an idea, it's facts based on logical deduction. There is no generation of sith that were more powerful in terms of sith knowledge and power. Revan's sith had the numbers, Kaan's sith had the achievements, and then bane's sith had the ultimate achievements. Yet ALL of them reverted back to ancient sith teachings for a reason. I realize that the majority of you are anti ancient since and pro PT, but use your heads.

General Kenobl

Majority of us are Anti Ancient? Ragnos is good, but he's not a God DS.

Pro PT? Please, the PT were the most underrated characters for monthes, and since people understand their true power, you brand us fanboys? Please...

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Majority of us are Anti Ancient? Ragnos is good, but he's not a God DS.

Pro PT? Please, the PT were the most underrated characters for monthes, and since people understand their true power, you brand us fanboys? Please...

Understand their true power? And I label you a fanboy? That's basically what you're doing with me and the ancient sith, hypocrite. Nobody said Ragnos is a god but you've yet to prove anyone is more powerful than him other than Sidious. He was the most powerful sith of the most powerful era. Nobody is discussing greatness, nor accomplishments, we're talking about pure power and knowledge, which the ancient sith had.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Can you not read?

Plagiues did what NO other Sith before him has done, a power totally unique to him, he could stop himself from passing on naturally, and he could stop others from dieing, The only person who comes close to that feat in ALL of Star Wars is Cade Skywalker, and thats 200 some years LATER. Its also an high possibility that he could have created life itself.

Nihlius learned a power from the ancient Sith( the force drain) and took it to a complete different league. He took a basic drain and used it to devour life from entire worlds instantly, he became a being so powerful that he no longer saw things on a human level.

Then we have the fact that every other Sith era save for Bane were locked in a state of perpetual warfare, they didn't have the time to sit around on there lazy asses and think up random powers.

Heres an analogy, the Ancient Sith are like 4'10 basketball players trying to dunk a ball, they can't. So they invent a device that allows them to dunk the ball despite there relatively small stature, now they can dunk the ball. Now Revan and the other powerful Lords are like 6'4 basketball players they don't need the device to dunk the ball it comes naturally.

Height in my analogy represents power in the force the Ancients are short and weak in the force so they invent something to aid them in achieving their goals(fighting the Jedi/Republic killing each other), Revan and company are already powerful in the force so they don't need these items to achieve there goals.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Can you not read?

Plagiues did what NO other Sith before him has done, a power totally unique to him, he could stop himself from passing on naturally, and he could stop others from dieing, The only person who comes close to that feat in ALL of Star Wars is Cade Skywalker, and thats 200 some years LATER. Its also an high possibility that he could have created life itself.
And you are basing this off of what canon evidence? Oh that's right, Palpatine's own words. GREAT proof.

No, his force consumption WAS the technique derived from the ancient sith, the same one he learned on Malachor V. There is NO mention of a normal force drain being taken to new heights, try again.

Then we have the fact that every other Sith era save for Bane were locked in a state of perpetual warfare, they didn't have the time to sit around on there lazy asses and think up random powers.

Considering you haven't provided a single shred a proof for your illogical argument, I'll ignore the constant nonsense.

Except again, since you can't read, most techniques that the sith lords use were invented by the ancient sith. If a sith lord wants to become powerful, he turns to ancient sith teachings. So not only do you NOT have an argument, you don't make much sense.

xxXAcStylesXxx

I'm basing this off Palaptines words and the fact that a book about the man is coming out, why would Sidious continue to lie? He already admitted to Anakin after the death of Mace Windu that he didn't know the power and that only his master did, now at that point there would no longer be a need to conceal any truths from Anakin, he was firmly in the grasp of the Dark Side and despite the fact that Sidious didn't know he follows him anyways. And again then we have the one shot novel about him coming out, what would the point of it be had he not had this unique gift.

Maybe if you learned to read it would be simple to figure out. Kreia says YOU CAN'T LEARN THAT KIND OF POWER. IT CANNOT BE TAUGHT. Nihlius gained the drain power because of his status as a wound in the force and the more he feed the more powerful he became, but in the end its still a force drain and NO ONE has ever had it one that level. That is fact. Nothing on Malachor says of how to teach Nihlius's power Kreia proves this, its all instinct. Learn to read, play the game and try again.

Considering you haven't provided a single shred a proof for your illogical argument, I'll ignore the constant nonsense.

So they were not in a state of constant warfare? So the Ancients did NOT have 500+ years to sit around in relative peace with its neighbors and develop random powers? I've provided ample proof, Yoda nad Sidious duplicating Sadow and Ludo's feat 10x over, Ludo who is the 3rd strongest sith from that era failing to dodge, block, or stop ONE brick, Sadow tossing a brick so lightly that it failed to kill, knock out or even draw a large amount of blood from Ludo. Them then in turn having all kinds of trinkets to amplify their force power. Sadow having BOTH amulets and failing to unleash the kind of power Exar Kun could in life or death battle (and don't say Ludo had a defense for it because he doesn't even have defenses from bricks)

They sucked get over it, your parroting the same shit and its getting old/annoying.

What a f*cking parrot. Is that your only argument(thasts still valid)? The Sith Lord turns to them because they have an ample source of knowledge that they've collected for 500+ years (No one is denying this) while they sat in almost complete peace from anything that could truly threaten them (The Republic, The Jedi) where as every other lord is usually in or on the verge of war with the before-mentioned.

Here is the progression of your argument

"They invented powers so they must be the best" - Wrong and so the f*ck what.

"Ragnos is liek uber because he was the strongest of his crappy era" - Wrong

"OMG Star Wars historical scholar Nai said such and such" - Who gives a shit

"Since they made amulets they must be uber" - Wrong

"No ones ever made new powers or made them stronger" - Wrong

Now its back to:

"They invented powers so they must be the best" - Still f*cking wrong

You have the most ridicules argument: You claim there greater just because they invented it but you have NOTHING to compare the future Sith's powers with the Ancients.

Show me one case of a Ancient Sith Lord unleashing a force storm HALF the size of the BoD, Hell, show me ONE case of a Ancient Sith Lord even doing force lighting the most basic power every neophyte under the sun can do. Show me once where a Ancient Sith Lord has drained an entire planet. Show me one thing an Ancient Sith Lord did BY HIMSELF with no toy that compares to ANY future Sith Lord. Finally the ONE time when he see a Ancient Sith Lord other then Sadow and Ludo or Ragnos, (Ajunta Pal) he is creaming his pants over how damn powerful a padawan Revan is. He is literally BLINDED by his power.

Your attempting to make a "evidence of absence" argument to save yourself, but even that won't work, when again the most impressive thing we've seen a Ancient Sith do without a toy is toss a weak ass brick. Now if we compare that to future Sith Lords who we have proof that can do that feat 100x over, ALL logic points to the future Sith being stronger in the force and inturn there powers (that they gained from the Ancients) will be stronger and have more power then the Ancients could ever hope to achieve without the aid of some stupid toy. They sucked floppy donkey dick. Get over it.

Darth Sexy

Wow, your ignorance and stupidity is quite evident. "They suck floppy donkey dick". So glad you could back that up without a bunch of illogical jibberish. Oh wait. I'll respond when someone who can formulate an argument comes back here.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Translation: I'll pick out one insult cause I can't refute a damn thing said because my head is so far up my own ass I can't even make a coherent argument. So I'll wait till someone makes a lesser argument for me to respond to and claim I'm right.

Darth Sexy

Yawn. I'll get to your incoherent nonsense in a bit, but please continue posting, it's interesting. Oh wait. Here's a hint.
http://josh.middlepath.com/memnoch9615/Zzzzz...%20English%20is%20boring...JPG

xxXAcStylesXxx

OMG Wow your so funny...I know your role is like the guy who posts the stupid "owned" pictures but seriously dude, its old and lame.

Darth Sexy

Give me some time, meanwhile you can continue to type and own yourself. I'll respond soon don't worry.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Sure thing buddy! You go get on that!thumbsup

((The_Anomaly))

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
This was such a ridicules point I feel I need to expound on it more, You do realise that In the Sidious/Yoda duel, they did pretty much the same feat Sadow and Ludo did, but to a MUCH higher extent, Sidious hurls pods at Yoda, these pods were moving faster, were MUCH heavier, and moving downwards. Now Yoda not dodged but he caught one in mid flight with the force, spinned it and tossed it back.

Now you want me to respect and acknowledge the power of the Ancient Sith when its supposed 2nd most powerful member can't even dodge, stop or block a BRICK that wasn't even thrown that fast. Please DS your better then this.

LMAO pwned, thats the best thing I've read on these boards in months. laughing

Nice.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I'm basing this off Palaptines words and the fact that a book about the man is coming out, why would Sidious continue to lie? He already admitted to Anakin after the death of Mace Windu that he didn't know the power and that only his master did, now at that point there would no longer be a need to conceal any truths from Anakin, he was firmly in the grasp of the Dark Side and despite the fact that Sidious didn't know he follows him anyways. And again then we have the one shot novel about him coming out, what would the point of it be had he not had this unique gift.
There is no canon source about Plageuis and Lucas has said that Palpatine lied about a lot of stuff, so your point is moot.

I guess that while you were typing up a bunch of useless nonsense, you forgot the part of KOTOR II where Kreia says that the technique was learned on Malachor V, it was derived from the ancient sith, and that she also had a force drain technique.

You haven't provided ANY proof, you've proven that your logic is more sources=more power, which is as dumb as it gets. And again, I suppose Yoda sucks because he couldn't block force lightning and Sidious must suck because he couldn't block a simple force push. Your point is moot once again. And I've already explained to you that the ancients built defenses for the techniques they invented, apparently a concept that eludes you.

Boohoo you can't form a cogent argument yet you keep wasting space.

What are you a little unintelligent girl? Quit crying. Yes ample source of knowledge, the MOST knowledge, and the most QUALITY in terms of knowledge, hence the golden age. Thanks for proving my point dumbass.

Never said that anywhere, improve your reading comprehension before embarassing yourself.

Yes, crappy era. LOL. At least offer a logical argument.

Embarassing yourself again

Reading comprehension..

Besides Palpatine, it's fact unless you can prove it otherwise(you can't), so you can continue the nonsense.

Reading comprehension dumbass

As opposed to lacking reading comprehension and not forming ANY argument? Their quality of teachings and powers were better than everybody else. As a WHOLE they were the pinnacle of sith knowledge and power. I understand that you have trouble reading and understanding, but maybe you should research the ancient sith. Nobody ever said that individually, every single ancient sith is more powerful than future sith, when we know thats NOT the case..Idiot.

Hey another idiot. "If we didnt see them use it, that must mean they CANT". I can tell you have absolutely NO sources near you and are arguing out of ignorance. And I've played KOTOR, Pall was not creaming over his power, quit making shit up.

At least I can somewhat logically deduce from lack of evidence while your argument is entirely based on "Well we didnt see it so it DOESNT exist". Way to refute my argument dumbass, go back to the drawing board.

Kadesh

i thought nihilus only had this ability? she stated certein abilities cannot be taught and his drain is not a force drain. Its a COMPLETELY different attack. He may have demonstrated on kreia when he and sion beat her up, obviously we dont see anything but how can a force push weaken some ones connection to the force? Kreia was ready to fight, and after getting pushed nihilus could have drained her, that might have been the reason why she couldnt call to her lightsaber.

By the way if it was an ordinary drain. kreia would not have made 2 statements
1) "He has come to learn the greatest of the sith teachings"
2)"Some techniques cannot be taught"

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Kadesh
i thought nihilus only had this ability? she stated certein abilities cannot be taught and his drain is not a force drain. Its a COMPLETELY different attack. He may have demonstrated on kreia when he and sion beat her up, obviously we dont see anything but how can a force push weaken some ones connection to the force? Kreia was ready to fight, and after getting pushed nihilus could have drained her, that might have been the reason why she couldnt call to her lightsaber.
Kreia also said that along with her ability, his was learned on Malachor V. And we see Nihilus apparently using it on Kreia but not killing her, just disarming her from the force temporarily.

It wasn't an ordinary drain, nor was Kreia's. It was a drain mixed in with the fact that Nihilus was a wound, therefore THAT couldn't be taught, but the massive drain itself was said to have derived from the ancient sith.

Kadesh

But they never point out who invented the techniques, i mean the point is different sith could have made different techniques, like spear of midnight black or deadly sight, all couldnt have been made by one person

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Kadesh
But they never point out who invented the techniques, i mean the point is different sith could have made different techniques, like spear of midnight black or deadly sight, all couldnt have been made by one person

They DO point out that the techniques were derived from the ancient sith.

xxXAcStylesXxx

So what because Palatine lies about stuff he's automatically an invalid source regarding his OWN master and especially when we know the feat can be done (Cade Skywalker in Legacy number 1 and 6 does it as a padawan) And then we have the fact as I pointed out the you so conveniently ignored that Palpatien has NO reason to lie.

Uh no she doesn't I never heard her say that once in fact she goes through hoops to stress the fact that that kind of power CANNOT be learned, it is all instinctual, hence why the Exile had she been left uncontrolled and kept killing would have become Nihlius, did she learn it from Malachor? No.

On Dantooine, when you meet the council for the last time, Vrook goes on about how the Sith are learning(!) from what happened to the Exile at Malachor V and they are learning(!) how to exploit wounds in the force to draw power from them, THAT is why they feared the Sith so much thats why they choose to cut the Exile off from the force.

Nihlius's power CANNOT be taught, had you played the game and fully understood it (which I doubt) you'd know this.

LOL! This has been broken already, you sound like a parrot, what you don't seem to get is Sidious and Yoda were two of the most powerful force users ever at that point complete equals, There is no "simple" force push or "simple" force lightning when coming from these two. What you fail to get is in that same battle, Sidious and Yoda duplicate(!) Sadow and Ludo's feat. And Yoda manages to do what Ludo couldn't...block...dodge...and stop a moving object 10x the size of a brick. Great point!

They've built up defenses? Then let me ask you...why the hell wasn't Ludo Kreesh the 2nd most powerful Ancient Sith at the time...fail to stop, block or dodge a brick? By Darth Sexy's ingenious logic they've spent all this time developing defenses for the most mundane, random feats and yet they can't block, dodge or stop the most rudimentary powers. Younglings deflecting blaster bolts perform better then them.

Now we resort to insulting each other, sign number 1 that this debate is over. Did anyone deny they had all this knowledge? No. What I'm saying is that they can't apply it like some other more powerful force user can.

"You cannot call his era weak, because the most powerful ancient sith designed techniques"

I'd say the same to you.

I guess you haven't read Nai's theory on the ancient sith,

"Creating amulets to channel and amplify force energy obviously takes some skill because we don't see anyone after them doing it, because they DONT have the knowledge. "

Look above.

"You cannot call his era weak, because the most powerful ancient sith designed techniques"

Prove it. You simply stating things, I asked before and I'll ask again show me one thing an ancient Sith Lord has done with out a Sith Toy.

When did I ever address them as individuals? Aside from there two most powerful members Sadow and Kressh? In every phrase when I'm not talking about the before mentioned I address them as "The Ancients" And your saying I lack reading comprehension....please.

A huh, I can tell you have no sources to prove me wrong so your resorting to insults because your frustrated. Aren't you supposed to be a senior in college, does Star Wars really mean that much to your little life? That you get mad when you can't prove someone wrong about your "favorite group". Grow up, your appearing pathetic.

As for Ajunta Pal:

"The force is so strong in you human"
"You...the force is with you. So strong, so bright."
"So much power... it is blinding"
"you who bristle with the force"
"I... see your power human jedi. I see your power, your pride"

You were saying...

I never said they couldn't do it, obviously they can since the powers are derived from them, however what I did say was, Show me a picture, scan, or quote that allows me to compare and gauge these "1337" powers you want me to believe they have. Prove to me that they could unleash a force storm the size of the BoD's, prove to me they could do what Revan, Exar, Kreia ect ect could do. The Burden of Proof is on you, your making claims "The Ancients power > New Siths" without any evidence accept for the fact that they created them. Sorry guy that shits not gonna fly with me.

Me on the other hand can prove that there powers are nowhere near the magnitude of the new Siths based on the fact that their two Strongest members (Sadow and Ludo) in a life or death duel, the most impressive thing the did with the force was toss a brick, a brick that failed to maim, kill, or even draw sufficient blood from Ludo. A brick that Ludo failed to dodge, block, or stop. One small brick, that the only feat we see them do without a toy. Logic tells us that without there toys they are weak in the force, since their two most powerful blew so much.

Then we have the fact that they even create these toys to begin with, had they been such gods in the force that you so desperately want us to believe, they wouldn't need these to combat there foes like every other Sith past them does.

Had I said that you'd be right, but I didn't and your wrong. I did not insult you so I'd expect the same courtesy back, unless of course you take me insulting your favorite character as a personal blow which in itself is truly sad. Anyways your starting to bore me, at least people like Nebaris can drop there agreement when they know they're wrong, you on the other hand don't refute anything an attempt to insult your way out of this by degrading to the topic into a flame war and stupid owned pictures. Really guy stick to cheer leading me and advents posts, debating on your own isn't your strong suite.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So what because Palatine lies about stuff he's automatically an invalid source regarding his OWN master and especially when we know the feat can be done (Cade Skywalker in Legacy number 1 and 6 does it as a padawan) And then we have the fact as I pointed out the you so conveniently ignored that Palpatien has NO reason to lie.
Wow, do you understand the concept of canon? I guess not. In fact Palpatine DID have a reason to lie, to get Anakin to come over to the dark side, but I guess that's yet another concept that eludes you.

Play KOTOR and stop embarassing yourself. She learned the force drain and Nihilus learned it but mastered it to an extreme because he was a wound in teh force.

Really? Weird, I guess you missed the entire DE series where Palpatine as a spirit drains the entire world of Byss. So apparently that technique CAN be taught. But OMG I guess something that couldnt' be taught 4,000 BBY STILL can't be taught right? Dumbass. And again, Nihilus was a WOUND, therefore him and his technique is a FLUKE.

Hey another idiot who thinks "because I can type, I have made a valid argument". I guess you fail to understand the concept that just because guy X lets a brick hit him or Guy Y lets him get force pushed, doesn't mean they suck. And yes, a force push is a force push, unless you want to debate the levels. And i'm glad Yoda could stop a pod, yet he couldn't stop the force lightning in the beginning. Great point! Jackass. Someone needs to teach you how to debate.

This is seriously part of your argument? Should I go back to why the most powerful sith lord ever couldn't stop a force push? Stop embarassing yourself.

And you STILL have no evidence that these techniques were mastered to an extent greater than the ancients, and that anyone OTHER than Sidious created their own techniques, and DIDNT revert back to the ancients.

Uh ok?

I can ask lightsnake to give me NUMEROUS sources for all of the ancient sith techniques created, so sources>you. Of course your ONLY source is probably GAOTS, since you argue out of ignorance.

Why would I prove you wrong when you haven't made an argument? What does your lack of debating skills have to do with Star Wars being a part of my life? Suddenly you're a psychologist? Thanks for the irrelevant misdirection doctor. Another sign of poor debating skills. And I don't think anyone is appearing more pathetic than you right now, but denial runs wild on this forum.

And this puts Revan above Guy X, Y, Z how? LOL

What have the new sith done in terms of force abilities? Oh, the Force Storm that they learned from Bane, who learned it from Revan, who learned it from the ancients? You were saying? And just because shit doesn't fly with you doesn't make it less factual.

What new sith? Kun's elite stasis field called a "sith" spell which he more than likely learned from Sadow's notes? What the hell have you proved or disproved? Nothing. Neither.

AHAH now you're comparing yourself to Advent? What are you Nebaris? Yet another idiot who thinks because he can type inside a text field, that he can automatically debate? You have not proven that you are even at the very least, a competent and capable debator, so I suggest you stop embarassing yourself and let the real debators on this forum add their rebuttals, because you're wasting text space with your stupidity, "Guy".

xxXAcStylesXxx

Wow do you understand the fact that Anakin was already firmly in the grasp of the dark side? Sidious blatantly says "I don't know how to do it...so ahh about killing those kids in the temple...you gonna do it" and what does Anakin basically say "Sure!" At that point there was no need to lie about Plageiuos thats what you don't get.

Logic points

A. Sidious not lying as he would have no point to

B. There being a book coming out about him, there would be no need if there was no special unique gift behind him

C. The ability has been shown as possible by Sidious and Cade Skywalker

Then we have Exar Kun:

"No, I don't think Sadow could have used it to the extent Kun had but that was the only instance."

Oh and do tell how Freedon Nadd murdered Naga Sadow if he is such a powerful being and that all his 1337 techniques really matter.

Nihilus learned it but mastered it to an extreme because he was a wound in teh force.(!)

The POINT. Glad you could finally see it, the question was

"Name one Sith Lord who has taken Ancient Powers to a more powerful level"

Because of his status as wound in the force it allowed the power to be taken to a different level then any other Ancient Sith could have, the most we see from an Ancient Sith drain is (if were assuming Kreias is the same power) is the ability to kill a few force users on a small scale, that is nothing compared to Nihlius, and his power is unique to him.

It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force." - Vrook

And there you have it teachings of the new sith.

Glad you could answer your own questions though.

Actually he does this as of 19BBY, end of ROTS, and Palpatine still doesn't do Nihlius drain, he does a variation but not his drain? No. And even so Nihlius had a holocron so Palpatine likely obtained it since Krayt could.

LOL! "well since I've been proved wrong I'm gonna call it a fluke!"

Oh so Ludo LET Sadow hit him now? Please tell me now why would he do that? Considering they're trying to kill each other and all. You still can't compensate for the fact that, Sadow who is supposedly a god couldn't throw a brick fast enough to maim, kill or even really hurt Ludo who in turn couldn't block dodge or stop it.

So a force push from Yoda and a force push from a youngling are the same things roll eyes (sarcastic)

And then he proceeds to block and stuff it 2 minutes later. Great point!

A force push from his complete equal in the force, a force push from "the most devastating foe the darkness has even known" So please go back to it and prove me wrong.

And you have no evidence that they were STRONGER then the new Siths or did you forget that? I've already posted why the New Siths are better, I'm done repeating myself.

You just told on yourself smart guy, "Well Lightsnake can fight my battles for and give me info" And did I ever say the ancients didn't create these powers. Thats not the issue, the issue is whether they are stronger then the New Sith's powers.

denial runs wild on this forum.

So true

Great, I'm glad that you don't even remember what you type.

"And I've played KOTOR, Pall was not creaming over his power, quit making shit up."

And you can prove that the ancients can produce one larger? A better one? A stronger one? Because last time I checked the power of force abilities drew on you know the users force connection. Now as I said the Burden of Proof is on you to prove that they can produce more grandiose feats then the New Sith. No matter how much you ignore it and cover it up with insults and "I don't have toos" You make a claim you have to back it up PERIOD.

More then likely? Prove it, prove that Sadow new this statsis field. SInce when does Exar Kun = the entire 4000 years of new sith?

I'm not gonna waste my time and post every single new Sith feat because theres no need to Darth Bane force crushing Qurdis is more impressive then anything we've ever seen the Ancient Sith do without a toy.

No, I said stop cheer leading mine and her posts, and even so I'm no sycophant(You) who seems to view people superior to themselves because of star wars.

A huh and thats why you cheer lead and hang of the tip of my nuts when I post in any topic that agrees with you.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Wow do you understand the fact that Anakin was already firmly in the grasp of the dark side? Sidious blatantly says "I don't know how to do it...so ahh about killing those kids in the temple...you gonna do it" and what does Anakin basically say "Sure!" At that point there was no need to lie about Plageiuos thats what you don't get.
Apparently your mental timeline is a little off so let me refresh your memory. Sidious tells him about Plageuis when Anakin was still mentally sane. He started wondering about the dark side after Sidious told him that. If your argument is based on your inability to follow a timeline, then you've already lost.

A. Wrong
B. Still doesn't make what he says canon, unless you're GL and can tell us what he lied about.
C. Sidious did not have this ability.

Uh very simple. Nadd was probably as powerful as Kun was, maybe even more, if he could murder Kun and have no trouble with the Massassi warriors that Kun had trouble fighting against.

I guess you STILL can't understand that Kreia says Nihilus' SPECIFIC POWER, aka his masterful force drain, was derived from the ancient sith.

You mean Traya and Nihilus and Sion, who all lasted for a whole 2-3 years after waging war on the Jedi? Wow, ph34r the Sith.

Sidious did what Nihilus did, but he did it as a spirit, and he did the exact same thing Nihilus did. He didn't "eat" the force because he wasn't a wound, but the effects were the same.

"Oh well since I'm computer literate and can type, I MUST be good at debating!!"

Since when did I call Sadow a god? Sadow was a SITH ALCHEMIST, his strengths in the force didn't deal with direct combat, so try again.

A force push is a force push. Sadow hitting Kressh with the brick is the same thing as Sidious getting force pushed..

Yes, because I was demonstrating where a powerful force user got knocked off guard by a force attack, great rebuttal!!

It's a force push dumbass. There's no levels like there are with force lightning or whatever.

Why do you keep lying to yourself and thinking you've actually added a logical argument when all you've done is waste space with nonsense? I DO have evidence that the ancients were stronger, because these 3 new sith learned from THEM, and lasted a whopping 2-3 years..Way to prove your point..

Yes, saying "lighsnake has the sources" is the same thing as saying "lightsnake can fight my battles". Way to continuously humiliate yourself.

I'm glad you don't remember what you typed either, claiming Ajunta Pall made Revan look like a God compared to the ancients, but way to go big grin

Yes a user's connection to the force. The sith who were powerful magicians+powerful exiled Jedi=strong connection. Figure that one out.

The word is "knew", and all Kun had was Sadow's teachings. It's called logical deduction, I suggest you learn it and apply it instead of sounding like a jackass.

Of course not, because you don't have an argument to begin with.

Boo hoo you can't debate, so stop trying. This has been by far the easiest debate I've ever been involved in. I suggest you let the more experienced and more logical guys(and girls) step in and argue your point(or at least attempt to because nobody has a clue to what your point is).

General Kenobl

Sadow and Kressh were said to be the Sith Empire's next two strongest Sith. And yet, their swordwork wasn't even that good, and Naga's Force work was pretty horrid considering how he didn't drop the brick hard enough (and that's not that hard to do) to break Ludo's HUMANOID skull.

I give you kudos on this pwnage. laughing out loud

BTW, do you consider me a more experienced and logical guy?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Sadow and Kressh were said to be the Sith Empire's next two strongest Sith. And yet, their swordwork wasn't even that good, and Naga's Force work was pretty horrid considering how he didn't drop the brick hard enough (and that's not that hard to do) to break Ludo's HUMANOID skull.
You have no idea of their sword skills. How is Sadow's force work horrid? What would you have him do? That's like saying Sidious was shit because he couldn't instakill Yoda or use one of his "Sidious knows everything" techniques. That's not even a logical argument, that's anti ancient sith nonsense.

I don't know, we're all more logical for the characters we love the best, and very illogical for characters we hate.. With the exception of some people like this idiot I'm dealing with XX whatever..

General Kenobl

Please, Naga Sadow dropped a supposedly "fast thrown " brick at Kressh's skull. Ludo Kressh is a humanoid and possess most of human anatomy, including not armor-like skull . It will hurt. So Ludo fell down, and Naga was unable to capitalize by thrusting his Sith Sword right into Kressh's chest. So it can either mean:

1) The brick wasn't thrown fast enough to properly wound Kressh so that he'll be in enough pain to not parry Naga's killing strike.

OR

2) Naga's not quick enough with his Sith Sword to even take advantage of a sitting duck opponent. Unless of course, # 1 is correct.

LOL, I guess by that logic, I am spewing illogical shit. Naa, I don't really mind the Ancient Sith. However, when I first joined in December 05 and saw all this Ancient Sith fanboyism, I didn't like it all. Nice insult! I must commend you for that.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Please, Naga Sadow dropped a supposedly "fast thrown " brick at Kressh's skull. Ludo Kressh is a humanoid and possess most of human anatomy, including not armor-like skull . It will hurt. So Ludo fell down, and Naga was unable to capitalize by thrusting his Sith Sword right into Kressh's chest. So it can either mean:
Don't forgot that he got right back up.

Or the ancient sith have incredible strength(as they were described).

I'm not debating their sword skills. They can be sword Gods or they can suck, but we don't have enough information to infer anything.

No I am saying that when you're a fan of a character you will argue intensely for that character. When you DISLIKE a character you will argue intensely against that character. On both occasions you are likely to be very logical and very illogical because of your hatred/love for the character.

And FYI I also dislike the Ancient sith fanboyism I read about from the "Antedeluvians". I can at least put the obvious Luke and Sidious above them all.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Whatever, I'm done wasting my time with you, I will not be brought into a flame war and bother with useless insults and your impeccable "I don't have to provide proof cause ahh I said so!" logic. And yes, I'm reporting you, I attempted a civil debate with you but you refused it, and again for the sheer number of insults you'll be gone in a bit, then you'll have all the time in the world to sit around and look at pictures of Korean kids. Nice job!

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whatever, I'm done wasting my time with you, I will not be brought into a flame war and bother with useless insults and your impeccable "I don't have to provide proof cause ahh I said so!" logic. And yes, I'm reporting you, I attempted a civil debate with you but you refused it, and again for the sheer number of insults you'll be gone in a bit, then you'll have all the time in the world to sit around and look at pictures of Korean kids. Nice job!

That's because your arguments(if you can call them that) were thoroughly pwned. Thank you, come again! And I could report you for your repeated insults(which outnumbered mine by a good margin), but i'm not a little ***** who can't stand up for myself. Go ahead though.

Darth Sexiest

Originally posted by Kadesh
Do we even know what ragnos can do? We do know he is powerful because luke admitted in JA that he would need the entire academy to stop a physical ressurected ragnos, I think he directly implied that he could not stop ragnos alone

Guys, first off, my apprentice isn't just blowing smoke out his rear. He's right in what he's saying.

But just to agree with this guy up here, Ragnos wasn't just powerful because of his knowledge of Dark side technique. He was half-Sith himself and probally had more Midi-chlorians than any other Force-Sensitive that ever lived, next to Anakin that is.
He probally has a larger grasp of the Force than Sidious and possibly Yoda and Sidious combined.
That alone would prove to be a devastating factor, when you consider that Ragnos could just launch a Destruction blast at Sidious, so powerful he can't even block it.
But I mean, that's just one example and it is generalising.

But I think you can use your imagination on this concept. stick out tongue

But seriously, think about it, JA Luke, who is older and therefore at least a bit more powerful than DE Luke (who was suspposed to be near DE Sid's power) admitted that it he himself coulden't be able to fight Ragnos without the entire academy backing him up.

Ragnos is the golden fleece of the Sith race.
If post-DE Luke was afraid of him, and Ragnos was feared by every other heavy-hitter Dark Lord in his time, it must have been for a good reason.

I say Ragnos COULD win.
He'd probally Force Crush the hell outta Yoda or something else and kill him, and then it'd be him and Sidious.

I see the fight possibly going either way.

Darth Sexy

Oy. I think that just destroyed everything I tried to say.

xxXAcStylesXxx

In this post I this post I think not, but theres anther one, so yeah again have fun with the Korean kids.

General Kenobl

DS, you know you have reported twice already, if not more. You really need to stop making enemies with members of the Forum.

And DS, you have been a little "flamy" you know. I think you are a great debator and I hate to see you banned, but I think you need to tone yourself down.

Darth Sexy

I don't care if I've been reported. I say what I have to say and I respond to flames accordingly. I just have the testicular fortitude not to take a debate to a button, but hey everyone is different.

Darth Sexiest

Didn't know you were God, KenobI.
I apologise.

Just out of curiousity, why have I been reported?
And how the hell do I make enemies with the Forum when all I do is write simple posts? huh

Are you just having a bad day or something?

General Kenobl

Come on DS, that kind of attitude is only going to get you banned.

xxXAcStylesXxx

Hopefully

Darth Sexiest

Oh and Btw, did you understand the concept I laid out about Ragnos, above?

General Kenobl

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Darth Sexiest=Darth Sexy, eh? I knew it...

Darth Sexy

I am not going to flame without getting flamed. If someone responds to my posts with sarcasm, I will respond with my own sarcasm. But almost everybody thinks he's always right so there's no civility. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you want me to act like a forum child, I'll go ahead and report the two people as well, and we'll be back to square one. But I'm pretty sure Rex will investigate it himself and deal with it accordingly.

No, I don't know who Sexiest is, probably Nebaris. Do you really think I'm going to waste my time making two identical names and using them both simultaneously? Don't pay any attention to him.

Darth Sexiest

I'm his master you dork, not him. no expression

Darth Sexiest

I wish we could just back to the debate at hand...instead of you throwing childish insults at my student...nono

Darth Sexiest

Sexy, you know that isn't true...
Not after all the time I've spent teaching you.

I know Sith don't have the best of bonds but seriously...

General Kenobl

Read my Descriptions on Marka Ragnos a couple of pages back. It clearly shows Ragnos's power.

Now on the topic of Luke saying this. How does JA Luke know how Ragnos fights or what he do except from ancient studies/texts, all which point out that Ragnos had a 100 reign as DLOT of the Ancient Sith? No, he doesn't. Luke obviously is giving a warning to tread carefully when dealing with spirits and the liking. He wants to play on the safe side,.

Please, AOTC Sidious has been prove by Escape and I to be greater than Marka Ragnos. Yoda is pretty much equal to or on par with AOTC Sidious. Yoda can defeat Ragnos. I think you overestimate Lord Marka too much Master DS.

Hey, btw Master DS, I haven't seen you here in a long time. The last time I really saw you active is during our famous debate in the QGJ vs. ESB Luke thread, where I totally killed your argument cool

@ Darth Sexy

True, Rex might investigate. However, having 2+ reports on the record doesn't add well at all. I'm not telling you to go report Escape and ACStyles, all I am telling you is some people are not very lenient and all. For example, I don't give a damn if somebody starts flaming me during a debate (as long as it's not racist), I'll insult them back or just ignore them. It's just a warning. I don't want to see anybody get banned.

LOL, I don't really give a care if it is you, DS. Nebaris could probably immature enough to be your "Master".