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The two most underated characters in all the movies fight each other on Utappu where Obi-Wan and Grievous fought. Both have their lightsaber and the Force at their disposial. Who wins?

Luke.

Qui-Gon beats the living shit out of Luke "Where's the ball?" Skywalker.

Or, rather, Luke "I have no saber training!" Skywalker.

Or even Luke "My two weeks were more productive than your twenty years!" Skywalker.

LOL, this is gonna be a funny thread, personally I think it'd be an incredibly close match and don't know who to vote for.


P.S. You guys know that one guy who used to come here late last year who said Palpatine was the strongest Sith? What was that guys name?

I agree that Qui Gon is underestimated, I mean he stood up well against Maul, but Luke more than stood up well against Vader. Luke is extremely powerful by ROTJ. He has the force not only to help him, like in ESB, but he has mastered what Yoda and Obi Wan taught him. He probably has the same amount of mastery of the force as Qui Gon, but much more raw power. Now, these are gut feelings, but Luke has learned so much, and has so much potential that he is fulfilling, and has learned from the greats. He has been taught to fight saber to saber well, to stand up against Vader. While I don't think it would be easy for Luke, I'm confident he could withstand, and counter anything Qui Gon throws at him. To say something like the graphics are good now a days so Qui Gon wins is just stupid.

No, Luke is below youngling level by ROTJ. There is no evidence that Luke has mastered jack of what Yoda and Obi-Wan taught him. Logic dictates that because it's such as short amount of time, he's nowhere close to mastering anything.

Your post has provided zero evidence other than your gut feelings; those of a Luke fanboy who uses the typical "zOMG, choreography sucked!" excuse.

Luke stood up to a Vader that didn't want to kill him. Wow. Great job. So if I pretend to fight a five year old and he "stands up to me," does that make him uber powerful? Does that make him more powerful than me?

If I take a dive while the five-year-old pummels at me and knocks me down despite the fact that I've been shown to have the physical strength to lift a man off the ground by the neck with one hand, did the five year old legitimately beat me?

Answer, of course, is no. Luke is an incompetant by the end of ROTJ. He will get tooled, badly. Zett Jukassa would tool him.

Qui-Gon should take this after a pretty good battle. Luke will be on the defensive the entire time.



WTF? Do people even listen to themselves sometimes?

How about you say something that makes you think Qui Gon would win, and we'll debate from there.

He is from the PT. He has been training with the lightsaber for longer than Luke has been alive. The PT Jedi display more skill, accuracy, and precision with the weapon than Luke ever has. They will school Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker.

Originally posted by IKC
No, Luke is below youngling level by ROTJ. There is no evidence that Luke has mastered jack of what Yoda and Obi-Wan taught him. Logic dictates that because it's such as short amount of time, he's nowhere close to mastering anything.

Your post has provided zero evidence other than your gut feelings; those of a Luke fanboy who uses the typical "zOMG, choreography sucked!" excuse.

Luke stood up to a Vader that didn't want to kill him. Wow. Great job. So if I pretend to fight a five year old and he "stands up to me," does that make him uber powerful? Does that make him more powerful than me?

If I take a dive while the five-year-old pummels at me and knocks me down despite the fact that I've been shown to have the physical strength to lift a man off the ground by the neck with one hand, did the five year old legitimately beat me?

Answer, of course, is no. Luke is an incompetant by the end of ROTJ. He will get tooled, badly. Zett Jukassa would tool him.

There is no evidence that he didn't master anything either, if you want to say that.

The choreography was not what is is today. If the PT was remade it would have tons more eyecandy than back in 1980.

Luke took Vader fair and square. You have no evidence against this.

No, but why would you want to get pummeled by a five year old?(why would Vader want to lose to Luke?)

Wow. That right there is an anti-Luke fanboy statement.

Asking the opposition to prove a negative, logical fallacy. Great debating skill! You win the "First to Ask Me to Prove a Negative" award!



Fanboy Excuse #23: "zOMG CHOREOGRAPHY/TECHNOLOGY SUXXORED!"

Guess what? Movies are the highest level of canon, your opinions aren't. Ergo, Luke fights like an incompetant nitwit. Get over it.



Is that why he made little to no offensive attacks to speak of during the entire fight? Is that why he got knocked down after one of the most telegraphed attacks of all time, complete with ninja scream, despite the fact that he's shown to have the physical strength to lift men off the ground with one arm?

Face it. Vader wasn't looking to kill Luke. Further proof is in ESB when Vader takes the kid gloves off and promptly dices Luke's hand off after Luke gets a lucky shot on his shoulder.



Perhaps because he didn't want to kill him? Perhaps because he wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side and destroy Palpatine and "rule the galaxy as father and son?"

There is no logical explanation for Luke's "victory" other than Vader not fighting to his fullest.

Yeah, I'm sure the evil Sith Lord didn't want to hurt a Jedi, his mortal enemy, (despite cutting his hand off and taking many swings that, had they connected, would have been lethal); but the Jedi looking for the good still left in his father and hoping to turn him back to the light side wanted to pound the hell out of Vader. No, Luke had more reason to hold back than Vader.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
How about you say something that makes you think Qui Gon would win, and we'll debate from there.
Hey, I'm leaning towards QJ. Don't you think it's be close?

You should be certain that a father didn't want to kill his own son, especially since his lifelong fear was losing the ones he loved. I'm glad you're so observant.

So Luke held back too, and that's why he cut off his hand? Right.

Yeah, I'm sure someone holding back would never disarm (no pun intended) an opponent. That is, as long as you overlook Vader in Episode 5.

Actually, I'm glad you've learned to read my previous post.



Dicing one's hand off is pretty different from killing them.

Luke channelled the dark side in that fight, and it was with Vader not trying to kill him. He was taunting him to join the dark side and give in to his anger the entire time. Then he hardly makes an offensive move while making menacing comments about Luke's sister. Yeah, that's a sure way to beat someone, real smart...

The fact of the matter is that the evidence displayed indicates he tanked the fight. Either way, Luke's lightsaber prowess is not shown on the level of PT duelists, and this is reflected in him having FAR LESS time to train.

We're not talking matters of hours, days, weeks, or months, we're talking about decades. Qui-Gon was about 60 in TPM, and he had (presumably) been a Jedi since he was 5. Yes, let's pit over 50 years of experience against 4 months of mostly non-saber combat. And then when the opposition points this out and the fact that Luke can barely handle a lightsaber, the Luke apologists suddenly start with the "zOMG bad choreogrpahy" and "Luke is teh Skywalker" excuses.

Fanboys.

Originally posted by IKC
Asking the opposition to prove a negative, logical fallacy. Great debating skill! You win the "First to Ask Me to Prove a Negative" award!



Fanboy Excuse #23: "zOMG CHOREOGRAPHY/TECHNOLOGY SUXXORED!"
Guess what? Movies are the highest level of canon, your opinions aren't. Ergo, Luke fights like an incompetant nitwit. Get over it.



Is that why he made little to no offensive attacks to speak of during the entire fight? Is that why he got knocked down after one of the most telegraphed attacks of all time, complete with ninja scream, despite the fact that he's shown to have the physical strength to lift men off the ground with one arm?

Face it. Vader wasn't looking to kill Luke. Further proof is in ESB when Vader takes the kid gloves off and promptly dices Luke's hand off after Luke gets a lucky shot on his shoulder.



Perhaps because he didn't want to kill him? Perhaps because he wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side and destroy Palpatine and "rule the galaxy as father and son?"

There is no logical explanation for Luke's "victory" other than Vader not fighting to his fullest.

Why thankyou.

So, if the movies were remade, they would use the same moves? And look just as bad even with the new provided technology? I think not.

Little to no? No, he made plenty attacks, all you see Vader do is swing his lightsaber at Luke. I just watched it.

ESB Luke is so much weaker than RotJ Luke. Proof is, Vader, wanted to end the fight so he did. If Vader wanted Luke so bad, he would have done the same in RotJ.

Again, if Vader wanted Luke so bad, and Luke sucked so much, the fight would have been over in a matter of seconds.

Luke didn't fight to his fullest either, he even said he wouldn't fight him.

Originally posted by IKC
You should be certain that a father didn't want to kill his own son, especially since his lifelong fear was losing the ones he loved. I'm glad you're so observant.

So Luke held back too, and that's why he cut off his hand? Right.

Vader didn't know Luke(other than in combat). He was willing to kill his best friend and father-figure for the Sith. Why would he care so much for a boy he only met once?

I'm glad you realize your incompetance.



So you're playing what if?

Sorry, the movies have not yet been remade. Ergo, Luke's an incompetant nitwit still. Sorry, it must hurt your fanboy feelings very much.



Yeah, I'm sure you leaped to the DVD player right after I made this statement.

Here you go, have some Illustriapwnage:





So much weaker? Prove up. Not much time passed between the movies.

Your theory holds no water, especially since Luke wouldn't have done Vader much good in overthrowing the Emperor if he didn't have a hand.



Yes, if Vader were actually trying to defeat/kill him. He wasn't, though.



Then he leaps to his feet, does a ninja scream, and uses the Dark Side while hammering at Vader like he's swinging a baseball bat.

So much weaker? Prove up. Not much time passed between the movies.

Your theory holds no water, especially since Luke wouldn't have done Vader much good in overthrowing the Emperor if he didn't have a hand.

There is that little matter of Luke having over ten times as much training between ESB and ROTJ then the rest of his life in ANH. I guess you just missed that minor detail.

Yes, if Vader were actually trying to defeat/kill him. He wasn't, though.

The same thing happened with Luke and Vader in ROTJ. Luke didn't want to kill Vader, Vader went to far and Luke went all out just as Vader did in on Luke after Luke clipped his shoulder in ESB.

And that minor detail was described... where? Making things up, are we?

Is this "ten times the amount of training" 60 years worth? Didn't think so. Must not have been worth much since he still swings his saber as he did in ESB.



I was talking about ROTJ. So Luke went all out while Vader still wasn't fighting to his fullest. And?

Originally posted by IKC
I'm glad you realize your incompetance.



So you're playing what if?

Sorry, the movies have not yet been remade. Ergo, Luke's an incompetant nitwit still. Sorry, it must hurt your fanboy feelings very much.



Yeah, I'm sure you leaped to the DVD player right after I made this statement.

So much weaker? Prove up. Not much time passed between the movies.

Your theory holds no water, especially since Luke wouldn't have done Vader much good in overthrowing the Emperor if he didn't have a hand.



Yes, if Vader were actually trying to defeat/kill him. He wasn't, though.



Then he leaps to his feet, does a ninja scream, and uses the Dark Side while hammering at Vader like he's swinging a baseball bat.

Yup.

No, he isn't. is plan worked out very well. With turning Vader and all.

Anything to prove you wrong.....

So what. Not much time passed. He still got really strong. Strong enough to beat Vader. This fight wasn't just physical. It was emotional too.

Luke wasn't going to go to the darkside. He would have rather died.

Proof?

After his family and one of his best friends got threatened. What a rash decision.

Dude, just because you have more training, doesn't automatically mean you are better.

This says nothing about his combat abilities.



No, he was strong enough to "beat" Vader when Vader wasn't trying to beat him. Ergo, the fight proves nothing. The emotional battle says nothing about his combat prowess.



Except he continues to angrily swing his saber at Vader even though he's down. Except he tries to make a slash at the Emperor and is stopped by Vader. Except the Emperor applauds him when he gives in to his anger.

Yep. That Luke's a solid dude.



Read up. Already gave it in this thread.



It was a rash decision, one fueled by the Dark Side.

Originally posted by IKC

Face it. Vader wasn't looking to kill Luke. Further proof is in ESB when Vader takes the kid gloves off and promptly dices Luke's hand off after Luke gets a lucky shot on his shoulder.

Originally posted by IKC
I was talking about ROTJ. So Luke went all out while Vader still wasn't fighting to his fullest. And?

Wow. You can take two slightly related quotes and try to prove something?

They actually make the same points. In both fights Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke, but in ESB he gets pissed and does something about it.

Originally posted by IKC
And that minor detail was described... where? Making things up, are we?

Is this "ten times the amount of training" 60 years worth? Didn't think so. Must not have been worth much since he still swings his saber as he did in ESB.

Just because there are others who know more then you about SW doesn't mean they are suddenly making things up. Maybe next time you should try thinking. Let me spell it out for you. Luke has about a week of training between the beginning of his life and ESB. Between ESB and ROTJ his trains for several months without stopping. Say three months. Thats 12 weeks. Seems to me like 12 is at least 10 times as many as 1.

Originally posted by IKC
I was talking about ROTJ. So Luke went all out while Vader still wasn't fighting to his fullest. And?

And you still haven't proved that Luke wasn't fighting his fullest. You just blindly assume that he wasn't, even though there is no solid proof that he was not doing so.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Dude, just because you have more training, doesn't automatically mean you are better.

maybe so for small gaps of time, but this is 50 YEARS opposing 4 MONTHS really c'mon. qui gonn was a revered master wh couldve gotten a seat on the council, but his maverick ways, and overall strangeness would not let him. luke had 4 MONTHS of training, he could barely even be considered a padawan. a padawan could not stand up to a master.

and dont give me the oh but qui gonn lost to maul and obi wan beat him bullshit obi wan gave into his rage (dark side) and also had a streak of luck. if obi wan was put in qui gonn's place he wouldve been dead in less 20 seconds.

luke would get his ass kicked by qui gonn hands down

Let's see...

Luke 'I woulda been pwned by Vader when I first fought him if he hadn't let me off without a hand and not without my life' Skywalker would get his ass handed to him. Qui-Gonn had at least mastered Ataru, which is a solid form. What has Luke mastered by RotJ? Nothing except 'I'm going to chop my own head off' swings. Jinn was also a pretty accomplished knight, and would probably become a master a few years later if he hadn't died. I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy, but Qui-Gonn would win.

And have you noticed the recent increase in Luke being involved in threads? Weird...

no, qui gonn was a master

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/index.html

hey cmon i want the luke fanboys to argue

Luke, was an untrained farmboy wasn't he?

uh yeah

and then he was a poorly trained "hardly even considered a padawan" jedi

Ohhhhhh.......... Vader was lying to him then. Wasn't he?

what?

No, not exactly. Vader didn't let Luke win, he just didn't try to beat him. There's a difference.

If Vader had wanted to kill Luke, he would have, and it wouldn't have taken very long.

Luke had basically NO training. Qui-Gon (in TPM novelization) was called one of the best duelist in the order. What was Luke a master of? Ninja screams? As for saber combat goes, a 13 year old padawan in the PT could beat him.

Qui-Gon WTFpwns Luke.

exactly

Vader told him his skills were complete. He was just lying then, wasn't he. You think Luke was tryng his hardest too? He didn't want to kill him. Just because he had 'a ninja scream', doesn't mean he sucks.

well then yes he was lying to him
and if he did a ninja scream i tihnk that means he ws going all out

For the last part, yeah. But not the whole fight.

And the last part was the part where he knocked Vader down, thats the most important part of the entire fight. Its the part every argument is about.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Vader told him his skills were complete. He was just lying then, wasn't he. You think Luke was tryng his hardest too? He didn't want to kill him. Just because he had 'a ninja scream', doesn't mean he sucks.

Luke was trying his hardest. His motivs in the fight was not to fall to the dark side at first, but when Vader mocked him too much and talked about his friends and his sister, he totally lost control. When he has cut Vader's hand off and the Emperor applauds him, then he realises what he's done. He let's his emotions control him

..., so? We all know that. That proved nothing.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
..., so? We all know that. That proved nothing.

You were just arguing that there was no proof that Luke was going all out, but this is clearly proof.

- I won't fall to the dark side.
- Your sister will then.
- DIE YOU ****ER, but I won't try to hard to take you down.

Yes, because he said, "DIE YOU ****ER!'.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Yes, because he said, "DIE YOU ****ER!'.

Don't take it so literally. Luke was furious, how could he possibly control himself, his goal during the fight was not to go to the dark side, then suddenly he gave into his emotions and tried to kill Vader. I'm sure he did that just to have fun and toy with Vader.
Luke was hiding from Vader because he didn't want to fight him, then I guess he revealed himself just to go out and toy with him a little.

That wasn't Luke's goal. His goal was to bring his father back to the light.

so he gave into tha darkside, and pushed his powers past his present limits AND he did a ninja scream

luke = going all out/trying his hardest

and wtf even if he wasnt trying his hardest, qui gon would still beat him

Nope. Qui-Gon couln't even contend with the likes of Vader.

Man seriously. Ok, Both Vader AND Luke were not going all out during that fight at the start. There is basically ZERO time between Eps. V and Eps. VI. In ESB Vader tooled Luke like an idiot after Luke hit him in the shoulder. THAT was Vader going 'all out', the entire fight before that, he AGAIN was trying to turn Luke to the darkside. He does the same in ROTJ. At neither time, except the hand chop off part, was Vader trying. And what happened when he did? He Pwned Luke. Not to mention, Vader BEAT Luke before the 'hand chop off' part, He could have killed Luke twice in ESB, but didn't. Since there was basically no time (not enough to master sword fighting, which takes a lifetime) it makes no sense at all that Luke "miraculously" became an amazing swordsman. In ROTJ, Vader could have "re-tooled" Luke again like he did in ESB, but he didn't want to. He was trying to turn his son, but at the same time he didn't want to actually hurt Luke. Then, he pushed Luke to the edge and pissed Luke off. Luke gave it his all and caught Vader off guard, that, coupled with the fact that Vader STILL didn't want to hurt his son precipitated him losing the fight.

Had he not done any of the talking/ trying to turn Luke and just went all out from the start Luke woulda been killed in prolly 10-15 seconds at best.

You go through six months of training, then tell that is no time.

Sorry...no..

If it wasn't against forum policy, I'd call you a moron. 6 months isn't enough to master shit, especially the force, and especially a lightsaber. If it was then Padawans would be Jedi at the age of 7 and Jedi masters by 12.

Common, just think about it a little, cause your sounding pretty dumb.

and don't give me the "zOMG!!!1 luke is teh 00ber 1337 f0rce sk1ll!!" crap. Because Anakin had far more potential then Luke and it took Anakin 13 years to master a lightsaber. And he STILL hadn't masted the force to an extreme upper level, like Yoda or Sidious. It takes a long time to learn about the force, 6 months isn't enough time to do anything...

Vader- "Your skills are complete."

a few points lacking in this debate:

-In the novelization the emperor is afraid when he learns that luke trained under yoda (more understandable after seeing ROTS)

-Yoda says that Luke won't be a jedi until after he faces Vader (I think this places him at about Obi Wan's leve at the beginning of TPM) I see this the same as when Qui Gon says Kenobi's ready for the trials.

Now, That means we have a jedi ready to undergo "the trials" going up against an ataru master.

Luke didn't suck, but in this fight he would be outclassed.

-edit-
by the way, both Lukes wide swings and Qui Gons twirly whatevers are dramatic film swordwork. agains real fencing and kendo either would open you wide up.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Vader- "Your skills are complete."

That doesn't mean "lightsaber skills"

As I said, NO ONE can master a lightsaber form (which Luke didnt btw) in 6 months. Its impossible.

Plus "skills" doesn't mean "your 1337 powerful"...define "skills".

By the age of 12-13 a padawans basic "skills" are "complete" (with the exception of lightsaber skills). What skills? Basic skills? what does "skills" mean exactly?

Vader saying that doesn't mean anything at all.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
That doesn't mean "lightsaber skills"

As I said, NO ONE can master a lightsaber form (which Luke didnt btw) in 6 months. Its impossible.

Plus "skills" doesn't mean "your 1337 powerful"...define "skills".

By the age of 12-13 a padawans basic "skills" are "complete" (with the exception of lightsaber skills). What skills? Basic skills? what does "skills" mean exactly?

Vader saying that doesn't mean anything at all.

Wow, Vader going through all the training, and saying that means nothing? That is a noob statement.

First off, that didn't even make sense. Second, you didn't answer my question. Him saying "your skills are complete" does not mean the same as "you have as much skill as I have"

And here you are calling Me a noob? LOL...

I've been here just a BIT longer then you have I'd say...noob. Or I should say "zOMG!!11 Luke is teh most 1337!!!11 00ber and he pWn J00 5queeb - Fanboy"

Luke loses to Qui-gon. If you think otherwise, then maybe you should be reconsidering who's the "noob". 6 months of semi-Jedi training with no saber combat training vs. 50 years of force training as well as a master of Ataru...hummm? Who wins? lol

Luke, he is better.

Luke would lose.
Luke doesn't have the traning nor the finesse that Qui-Gon has. Luke has spent too much time mucking about with his emotions and has recieved no real saber training. He would get his ass handed to him.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Luke, he is better.

GOD, you have no proof still you persist that Luke defeats Vader. It takes decades to master the arts of the lightsaber, DECADES. Luke trained for about 6 months, where other jedi trained for DECADES with masters to tell them exactly what to do and can correct them when they do it wrong and still many doesen't master a style to the highest degree.
Luke showed no incredible force powers either, while Luke could choke a gammorean guard to death Vader in ROTS could force choke one of the greatest jedi padawans to death. Luke's skills doesen't match Vader's in any categorys.
If you can't provide any proof that Luke could defeat Vader then STFU.

"In the final installment of the series, but the third to be produced, Vader is charged with overseeing the completion of the second Death Star, with Moff Jerjerrod as his immediate subordinate. He meets with Palpatine onboard the half-constructed station to plan Luke's turn to the dark side. Darth Vader escorting Luke Skywalker to Palpatine in an attempt to convert him to the dark side.By this time, Luke has completed his Jedi training."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_vader

Just a question, where is this 6 months figure coming from? Luke trained from after Hoth to Bespin. I'm sure he at least practiced between ESB and ROTJ. and ther must have been some training in ROTJ before Yoda's death.

The reason Luke is so badass in ROTJ is cuz he's like a duck in water. The Force, lighsabers, it all came natural to him.

Vader & Luke = Bruce Lee & Brandon Lee-------Like father, like son.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
"In the final installment of the series, but the third to be produced, Vader is charged with overseeing the completion of the second Death Star, with Moff Jerjerrod as his immediate subordinate. He meets with Palpatine onboard the half-constructed station to plan Luke's turn to the dark side. Darth Vader escorting Luke Skywalker to Palpatine in an attempt to convert him to the dark side.By this time, Luke has completed his Jedi training."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_vader

And where do you think they got the source from? That's right, Vader's quote. And as "Anomaly" proved before, his skills could have meant anything. Padawan's make their own lightsabers, Luke did one too. Mabey Vader meant that since he created his own lightsaber he was a jedi or that he had completed the basic traning. And this doesen't mean that his skills are better than Vader's himself. And Vader didn't know that Luke had describtions to how to build his lightsaber and probably thought he had done it by his own instincts, which is pretty impressive.

Yeah, swinging the sword like a bat, swordsmanship comes natural to him. Comon, a master who has practised for over 40 years, mastered and refined his style, beated 7 jedi's at the same time and had mastered powerful force techniques vs his son who had less time, less instructors and less potential. Sounds like an even match doesen't it?

That source is more reliable than what you say.

I point out again that both "styles" are more about theatrics than actual swordplay. both would leave you very open. If you are going to call them lightsaber forms, supposedly ataru, Qui-gon's form is form III and Luke's might be a derivative of form V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Forms_of_Lightsaber_Combat

It would be basically brute strength vs. finesse.

except in this case, it is a master of finess vs an adept of the brute strength.

Your not listening are you? If Luke's traning is complete, then how can he grow to be so much better in NJO? He has nothing more to learn.
He could not have learnt all the techniques of the jedi and all lightsaber moves in some months. And that source means shit. "WOW Luk u got tha skillz". It could mean anything and it doesen't necessarily mean he has greater skills than Vader.

Tell me, how could Anakin in 13 years not learn all the things you say Luke learnt in the OT when his potential is higher than Luke's, he has better trainers (having teachers at all), having 12 more years to learn on and traning each and every day.

"I am a slow learner." Anakin.

Originally posted by kamikz

Tell me, how could Anakin in 13 years not learn all the things you say Luke learnt in the OT when his potential is higher than Luke's, he has better trainers (having teachers at all), having 12 more years to learn on and traning each and every day.

I can answer that one.... Anakin was always complaining about being "held back" with his force potential he could have advanced much faster if the council and Obi Wan had let him.

Luke on the other hand was rushed through his training. It was the middle of a war and he was pretty much the last chance for the jedi (Leia almost counts, but at that point who would have trained her). Yoda pushed him faster than they would have pushed any Youngling or padawan in PT. Possibly they pushed him as hard as they could and he mastered enough to be considered for jedi knight in the little time they had. Hence he only had to undergo the trial of facing Vader before actually being considered a Jedi Knight by Yoda, the only remaining member of the council.

-edit-
my feeling training complete=finished high school, ready for college

after all, there's always more to learn. Too bad the University had already been torched.

Originally posted by docb77
I can answer that one.... Anakin was always complaining about being "held back" with his force potential he could have advanced much faster if the council and Obi Wan had let him.

Luke on the other hand was rushed through his training. It was the middle of a war and he was pretty much the last chance for the jedi (Leia almost counts, but at that point who would have trained her). Yoda pushed him faster than they would have pushed any Youngling or padawan in PT. Possibly they pushed him as hard as they could and he mastered enough to be considered for jedi knight in the little time they had. Hence he only had to undergo the trial of facing Vader before actually being considered a Jedi Knight by Yoda, the only remaining member of the council.

Luke could not have advanced so fast that he in some months mastered lightsaber styles who takes decades to learn. He also almost never practised together with Yoda, he followed instructions in Ben Kenobi's house, so he could only push himself. Luke could not match a 40 year old master. If he's been training almost everyday those 40 years, had real fighting experience against masters of lightsabers and all kinds of foes, what could possibly make Luke able to stand up to him?
Yoda only said his traning was complete because he was dying.

Anakin's line, "I am a slow learner" was only to mock Dooku when he said, "brave of you boy, but I thought you had learned your lesson". Since when did Anakin himself think of him as a slow learner when he was the one who said he had surpassed both Obi-Wan and Mace in 10 years.

Sorry for the double post, but I'm still wondering where we're getting this months figure from. Isn't there like 2 years between
ESB and ROTJ where luke could be training.

Just because the movie doesn't show luke lightsaber training with Yoda doesn't mean it didn't happen. that would be a technically impossible scene with the tech they had when that movie was filmed. a lightsaber wielding muppet would have been hilarious.

lmao kermit vs. ms. piggy in a lightsaber battle

No, Luke is a padawan with almost no training. Qui-Gonn could stand up to Maul, and actually did well against him. Drop Luke in the same situation, and watch the instant gore fest.

yes luke, the wannabe baseball player would be defeated easily by maul, as with qui gon

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
"I am a slow learner." Anakin.

Exactly

You can look at it like this.....

Anakin was held back longer than he shoulda been, where as Luke got his GED cuz he started late. So by the time of ROTJ they were rough equivalents.

Obiwan delayed Anakin's training, but accelerated Luke's.

ROTJ Luke is untouchable and a lethal wielder of Djem So. He also has a much higher midichlorian count than Qui.

First off, Qui-Gons form is Form IV, not Form III...lol. So this argument isn't worth anything.



LOL! are you kidding me! Anakin meant that as a kinda of pigheaded insult towards Dooku, He didn't mean it literally. Anakin thought he was a FAST learner compared to everyone else (because he was). Thats why he felt Obi-Wan was holding him back. For him to say and mean "I am a slow learner" literally would go against EVERYTHING else he said in the rest of the movie..lol n00b.


You cant "rush" learning the force, Jedi spend years learning how to control it and understand it, they spend their whole lives. a few months isn't going to mean shit. You cant (no matter WHO you are) learn to understand and control the force in a few months. EVERYTHING to do with the Jedi portrayed in the movies says you cannot. Luke cannot, and didn't. The best we saw him do was a very crappy force jump, a force grip against opponents who were giant pigs (by far his most impressive feat), and levitate a lightsaber a few times. I mean it took Luke forever to beat Jabba's Hench men in ROTJ, and he got shot in the hand. Wow, Luke has some awesome skill eh? Any PT Jedi would down all those people in a matter of prolly 30-40 seconds at the most.

As well. IT. IS. NOT. POSSIBLE. TO. LEARN. A. LIGHTSABER. STYLE. IN. 6. MONTHS. I dont care who you are, the most powerful force users ever could not learn to use a lightsaber in 6 months, its impossible, it takes decades to master a lightsaber form. But hey! Luke getting shot in the hand by a fat Jabba henchman certainly proves Luke's supreme Lightsaber skill eh!? Gimme a break. Luke sucks balls at lightsaber combat in ROTJ, there's no way he could not have.



Most of Luke's training came from Yoda, who didn't even have a saber anymore (he lost it against Palpatine and Dagobah has no materials to construct another). So Yoda couldn't have even taught Luke anything (useful) about using a saber. Give it up, Luke has no saber skill. It didn't look like he had any, why? Because he didn't have any. He cant have had any and even if he did have a little, hes certainly not a Form V master like Vader (who Dooku said was the best practitioner of Form V he had ever seen) Nor is he a Form IV master like Qui-Gon. He wouldn't even know much of Form I, which is the basic Saber form that all Jedi in the PT era learned, there was simply not enough time to learn it.

Luke can't beat Vader OR Qui-Gon. Its not possible, nor logical that he could. Time to accept that Luke was not "teh 00ber jedi!!11" and move on.

Bravo, sir!

Qui-Gon, hands down.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))


LOL! are you kidding me! Anakin meant that as a kinda of pigheaded insult towards Dooku, He didn't mean it literally. Anakin thought he was a FAST learner compared to everyone else (because he was). Thats why he felt Obi-Wan was holding him back. For him to say and mean "I am a slow learner" literally would go against EVERYTHING else he said in the rest of the movie..lol n00b.


hes certainly not a Form V master like Vader (who Dooku said was the best practitioner of Form V he had ever seen)



1. Yes he was slow-ass learner. He even put the emphasis on "AM".----"He still has MUCH to learn."- Obi to Mace and Yoda.

2. If Dooku woulda lived to ROTJ he woulda retracted that statement, cuz Luke was better at Form V.

Anakin was not at all a slow-ass learner. Not even in the slightest. While he is a bit headstrong, he does have ten less years than pretty much any other Jedi his age. Hell, he's the only exception, really. Most Jedi are trained from birth.

Luke was not better at Form V than Vader. Not by a longshot.

Luke didn't know Form V, its impossible, there's not enough time to learn anything. I'm not repeating myself, read my post above.

But just as a side though (If say Luke even had years to learn a style)...who exactly taught him Form V? Vader is the ONLY living practitioner of Form V alive during the Empire times...so...Luke just magically taught himself a lightsaber form who know one other then the person he's trying to defeat knows? Ridiculous.

Yoda couldn't have done it, he uses Form IV...so...tell me? How do you teach yourself something that no one knows, and then manage to master it as well as a person (who was hailed by one of the best duelist of the PT era, Dooku) as THE master of Form V, and who had been practicing Form V for 40 years...

No, Luke has no lightsaber style.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Anakin was not at all a slow-ass learner. Not even in the slightest. While he is a bit headstrong, he does have ten less years than pretty much any other Jedi his age. Hell, he's the only exception, really. Most Jedi are trained from birth.

Luke was not better at Form V than Vader. Not by a longshot.

Luke was a much faster learner. If Anakin had started at 19, he would not nearly be as good as Luke by ROTJ.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Luke was a much faster learner. If Anakin had started at 19, he would not nearly be as good as Luke by ROTJ.

Opinion, you have nothing to back that statement up.

Luke isn't good by ROTJ. That's the thing. In comparison to Anakin by AOTC, he loses. In comparisont to Kenobi at TPM, he loses. Qui-Gon Jinn is overkill.

Zett Jukassa could take Luke.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Opinion, you have nothing to back that statement up.

"I AM a slow learner" - Anakin. He was 19 when he said that, and had already been practicing for 10 years.

Yea, Zett prolly could. So far I've pWned all the "luke is teh 00ber jedi!!11" fanboys, since no one can back anything they're up.

Luke sucks in ROTJ, give it up.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
"I AM a slow learner" - Anakin. He was 19 when he said that, and had already been practicing for 10 years.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
"I AM a slow learner" - Anakin. He was 19 when he said that, and had already been practicing for 10 years.



I'm waiting for a responce to my above post. How did Luke know Form V?

It wasn't an insult, he meant it.

He wan't faster than Obiwan, which is why he got a lightnong bolt to the face.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I'm waiting for a responce to my above post. How did Luke know Form V?

holocrons

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
holocrons

Proof?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Proof?

STAR WARS: The NEW Essential Chronology

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
It wasn't an insult, he meant it.

He wan't faster than Obiwan, which is why he got a lightnong bolt to the face.

No. Anakin is a pigheaded arrogant fool who thought he was the best thing since hyperdrive. He would not say that about himself literally, espicially to an enemy.

And the lightning didn't mean he was a slow learner. Hes just stupid and arrogant where Obi was not. Anakin was more skilled the Obi in ATOC, he proved that by not getting pWned near as fast against Dooku. (And by the rest of the movie)

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
STAR WARS: The NEW Essential Chronology

The Chronology cannot create canon. You have to do better than that.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
STAR WARS: The NEW Essential Chronology

Proof? Those guides not canon by any means.

And even if he did have holocrons, again, its impossible FOR ANYONE to master a lightsaber form in 6 months. Especially to the degree of THE best practitioner of Form V alive.

Absurd.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Proof? Those guides not canon by any means.

And even if he did have holocrons, again, its impossible FOR ANYONE to master a lightsaber form in 6 months. Especially to the degree of THE best practitioner of Form V alive.

Absurd.

Where else would he learn Form V?--Plo Koon's ghost?


Luke was not a master of V by ROTJ, just like Anakin was not a master in ROTS. In fact, he didn't become one until he was a borg. Dooku said Anakin was the finest Djem So fighter he had ever seen. In other words, it was Dooku's opinion----I dont think he got a chance to meet all 10,000 Jedi that were alive during the Clone Wars.

No, see I asked YOU that question. Where did Luke learn Form V? I said he didn't. You said he did. You have to prove up that he did. You have not.

And Anakin being praised as the finest Form V fighter by (arguably) the best duelist of his time is pretty damn good. Sure, Dooku didn't meet all the other Jedi, But Anakin was leagues above pretty well all the Jedi other then Mace and Yoda and arguably Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No, see I asked YOU that question. Where did Luke learn Form V? I said he didn't. You said he did. You have to prove up that he did. You have not.

And Anakin being praised as the finest Form V fighter by (arguably) the best duelist of his time is pretty damn good. Sure, Dooku didn't meet all the other Jedi, But Anakin was leagues above pretty well all the Jedi other then Mace and Yoda and arguably Obi-Wan.

According to anything about Luke--he used Form V. Why is the Chronology not valid?

It was still Dooku's opinion. "There's always someone better than you." Dooku just never had the chance to meet the better Form V user.

It does not fall under any canon source. Its just speculation in terms of canon. Unless you can find a real canonical souce saying Luke knew Form V as of ROTJ, then he didnt know shit as of ROTJ.

And again, YOU have to prove that what Dooku said is wrong. Got any source saying there is a better practitioner of Form V at the time? If not then what Dooku says wins over the 'nothing' that you have. Speculation isn't evidence I'm afraid.

Dooku said he was the finest HE had seen/faced. That was Dooku's opinion. I'm not saying Dooku was wrong, if Ani is the best in Dooku's opinion thats fine and dandy. But it doesn't mean Ani was the best alive.

Luke can't have known Form V. I'm ruling it out. It is, in the sense of continuity, IMPOSSIBLE.

Anakin did not literally mean "I am a slow learner." Look how he talks about himself for the rest of the movie. He thinks he's being held back, and he's only been in training for ten years, compared to the Jedi of his age group, who have at least seven to ten more years on him.

Fine then, what style did Luke use?

He didn't.

Exactly, he didnt use a style. Thats what I've been saying for the past half hour. He cant have known a style, and he especially cant have known Form V.

But its late, I'm going to read for a bit then go to bed. I leave the pWnage now to the other members. I'll be back tomorrow to laugh at what the "zOMG!!11 luke is teh 1337 jedi!!!11" fanboys come up with next.

Till tomorrow.

We saw him redirect a blaster bolt on sand skiff at the pit of carkoon, which would point to Form V.

Originally posted by Captain REX
He didn't.

Well it was good enuff for him to defeat a Sith Lord......unlike Quigon.

We also saw him get shot in the hand in that same sequence.

Wow, Luke rules with a saber eh?...lol

Anyways, now bed.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
We also saw him get shot in the hand in that same sequence.

Wow, Luke rules with a saber eh?...lol



BFD, nobody's perfect.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
Well it was good enuff for him to defeat a Sith Lord......unlike Quigon.

Yeah, a Sith Lord who wasn't trying to kill him, was slow, noisy, and was trying to keep him in one piece so that when he turned to the Dark Side they could betray and kill Palpatine.

What an epic accomplishment for Luke.

Originally posted by IKC
Yeah, a Sith Lord who wasn't trying to kill him, was slow, noisy, and was trying to keep him in one piece so that when he turned to the Dark Side they could betray and kill Palpatine.

What an epic accomplishment for Luke.

He had the mental toughness to resist coercion to the Dark Side.

Except he made a ninja scream and attacked Vader powered by the Dark Side. Only after lopping off his hand (after many baseball-bat swings) did he realize he was falling.

And that means jack in a fight.

That doesn't exactly factor into a fight to the death.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
BFD, nobody's perfect.

Same applies to Qui-Gon. He was past his prime, but he was definitely a better fighter than Luke, even if he was defeated by Maul. In turn, Maul is a better fighter than Luke as well. So is Padawan Kenobi.

Originally posted by Captain REX

Same applies to Qui-Gon. He was past his prime, but he was definitely a better fighter than Luke, even if he was defeated by Maul. In turn, Maul is a better fighter than Luke as well. So is Padawan Kenobi.

tru dat

Originally posted by Captain REX
That doesn't exactly factor into a fight to the death.

Well, seems most people have come to their senses and realised that Luke gets pwned.

Qui-Gon nubs Luke like a squeeb.

Holy Bantha!!! lot's of posts since I last checked.

The sources I've read did not say that Luke knew form V just that his style was similar to it.

I also agree that ROTJ Luke could not beat Qui Gon.

What I am saying is that you are underestimating his level of training. I doubt Yoda would have sent him after Vader if he was still at complete noob level. Luke was supposed to be the hope of the Jedi not their las joke. Yoda obviously disagreed with Luke trying to save his Father, he wanted luke to go kick some A.

You can learn basic proficiencies in 6 months, I lived in South America for a while and was speaking Spanish fine after 3 months.
And I still say luke had more than 6 months training. Who knows how much time between ESB and ROTJ Luke spent training with Yoda. And before you say it, Yoda wouldn't need a lightsaber to teach him. You don't use a real sword to learn how to use one.

Summary. Qui Gon>TPM Obi-Wan = ROTJ Luke (That equal sign should be one of those squiggly one you use in math that mean about equal, I do think Obi would be a little better, just because of more actual combat at that point.)

When he went to Vader in ESB, Yoda said he wasn't ready. Luke said he was and promised to come back, he then promptly went away to come back in ROTJ when Yoda died, he did not spend the time in between training with Yoda, he even says he's going back to his old friend to fulfill that promise he made when he left in the first place.

At that time, Luke his training was still not complete. In the time between that however Luke has done some stuff but nothing that could have learned him to fight better then Vader, he could barely construct a lightsaber with the help of Obi Wan his notes and after he did he was immediately thrown into danger and all the chances he had to learn more were removed as he went on a fool chase to find Han and Boba Fett.

He didn't have much time for training at all, and he didn't train with any Jedi so he couldn't have improved much either.

there's supposed to be what 2 years between ESB and ROTJ? even looking at Shadows of the Empire, there's still a lot of unaccounted time. And Luke has obviously progressed tremendously between ESB and Jabba's Palace, Let alone the duel with Vader.

Originally posted by Fishy
When he went to Vader in ESB, Yoda said he wasn't ready. Luke said he was and promised to come back, he then promptly went away to come back in ROTJ when Yoda died, he did not spend the time in between training with Yoda, he even says he's going back to his old friend to fulfill that promise he made when he left in the first place.


There are 2 ways to view that scene. One like you said, he hadn't been back since he left during ESB. the second that he did return, but left again to help with han's rescue.

And there is absolutely no evidence for that.

And actually there is no time between Shadows of the Empire and ROTJ. It deals with everything that happened then and ended with the alliance hero's landing on Tatooine and Boba giving Han to Jabba, and of course Vader arriving at the Death Star, which is just moments before the movie actually begins...

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No. Anakin is a pigheaded arrogant fool who thought he was the best thing since hyperdrive. He would not say that about himself literally, espicially to an enemy.

And the lightning didn't mean he was a slow learner. Hes just stupid and arrogant where Obi was not. Anakin was more skilled the Obi in ATOC, he proved that by not getting pWned near as fast against Dooku. (And by the rest of the movie)

It was an insult, but Ani meant it.



"Your overconfidence is your weakness."- Luke

^ Yes, it was a diss, but Luke still meant it.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
It was an insult, but Ani meant it.



"Your overconfidence is your weakness."- Luke

^ Yes, it was a diss, but Luke still meant it.

I have already described why he said it. It was as an insult against Dooku when he said, "brave of you boy, but I thought you had learned your lesson". And in the beginning of the movie Anakin said that he was better than Obi-Wan who he said was equal to Mace Windu, in 10 years. And he was one of the fastest learning students there, he was the youngest to be appointed to the council. Anakin was not slow.

hah padawan listen to the master, he knows most stuff

Originally posted by kamikz
I have already described why he said it. It was as an insult against Dooku when he said, "brave of you boy, but I thought you had learned your lesson". And in the beginning of the movie Anakin said that he was better than Obi-Wan who he said was equal to Mace Windu, in 10 years. And he was one of the fastest learning students there, he was the youngest to be appointed to the council. Anakin was not slow.

He just said that to impress Padme. He wuz juss trying to earn some pussy points.

"Besides, your senses aren't that attuned." - Obiwan

Hey hey hey, i dont wanna hear that kind of stuff.... There is no logical things in your words

Originally posted by Kaithen
Hey hey hey, i dont wanna hear that kind of stuff.... There is no logical things in your words

What do you mean? He was practically trying to impress her throughout the whole movie.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
He just said that to impress Padme. He wuz juss trying to earn some pussy points.

"Besides, your senses aren't that attuned." - Obiwan

That's an assumption.

What jedi had in 13 years developed as fast as Anakin? Dooku saw him as the best practisioner of his style ever, that includes Mace Windu when he was younger (since he had to master it to master Vaapad). Anakin also defeated Assaj twice while masters fell to her easily.

How does Anakin being the best with his style include Mace Windu, who used a completely different style?

I think what he says right afterwards explains it.

Originally posted by Fishy
How does Anakin being the best with his style include Mace Windu, who used a completely different style?

I said, a younger Windu. I though you had to master Djem before you could begin to practise Vaapad, isen't that right? And Dooku said Anakin was the best practisioner he had ever seen using Djem. I didn't mean he can pwn Windu for that, no way in hell. It was just showing that Anakin's swordsmanship was one if not the most promising ever. (PT) And he had practised for a short time, so he was not a slow learner, but it still required 13 years for him to come that far, so Luke would need to be fast as hell to master it as good as Anakin did. (Which he is not since he would whine most of the time lol)