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Setting is on the top of Mt Everest.

Sadow Revan and Malak.

Sadow can very likely take Kun if not stall him for a very long time

Revan can likely take DE Sidious if not stall him for a long time

Malak will take Yoda.. And then help the rest kill the others. Either way the first team wins

This is a good one for a few reasons, and for those of you who lack reading comphrension skills, this is only my opinion.

Sadow could be equal to Kun but most likely is more powerful.
Revan=DE Sidious because I think those two have been declared equal.
The hardest would have to be Malak vs. Yoda. Since the setting is on top of Mt. Everest then obviously Malak is without the SF. In any case I believe Yoda could take Malak. So you have in most cases Sadow taking Kun(sorry IKC), and Yoda taking MALAK. Obviously the X Factor would be Sidious and Revan, but we know that Sadow would take Yoda.

Nonsense.

I see Sadow and Kun stalemating for as long as it takes Sidious to own Revan. Sidious then either helps Yoda with Malak (because I see them stalemating, though Yoda is definitely in trouble) or Kun with Sadow.

Kun's team might just take it, but it's hard to quantify Sadow's power.

Sidious would own Revan?

The same Sidious who lost to Luke in a lightsber duel when Luke wasn't even fully trained yet? Sure...

Why would Sidous own Revan? Why would you think Kun would stalemate Sadow? So with your logic you believe Kun then would also either stalemate or beat Kressh and either stalemate or beat Simus? I don't know as much as most of you but I do know Kun does not measure up to the Ancient sith of the Golden Age, no matter how much you like Kun.

There really isn't a lot of evidence to say Sadow is superior to Kun...

Or the same Sidious who displays far greater Force prowess than Darth "The Great Unknown" Revan. Sorry, Revan's pretty good but the tier of high-levels begins with DE Sidious. Sidious will beat him.

Greater force powers that he could use in a fight? Like what?

IKC what you just said is pure speculation.

No, everything for Revan is pure speculation. Prove he's on par with Sidious.

What force powers does he use, huh?

I could tell you many but according to you gameplay isn't canon.. But he still gets beaten by Luke, so you would be saying Luke>Revan then?

No, according to canon policy, gameplay is not canon.

And who gets beaten by Luke? DE Sidious? No, I'd not place DE Luke above Revan. DE Luke happened to have a lot of help.

A lot of help? You mean Leia?

Leia and unborn Anakin, yeah. They pushed his force storm back on him, which is ridiculous but *shrug*.

Originally posted by IKC
No, everything for Revan is pure speculation. Prove he's on par with Sidious.

What force powers does he use, huh?

He knows force lightning, life drain, he can choke people thats about it really...

How many force powers have you seen Exar use except for pushing Odan Urr to death and blasting with a sith amulet, does that mean he can't do anymore then that?

Would it be a logical assumption to make that Revan did not master anything more then that? Seeing as we are allowing logical assumptions now...

I'm not taking sides here, but IKC, that's an untrained Leia and a fetus Anakin. How much help could they have possibly given him?

Actually, what Revan knows isn't canon, but I'm glad you can make things up.

Sidious' knowledge and Force powers are both concrete and considerable. Revan's might be considerable if we knew what they were.

Right.. An untrained Leia and unborn Anakin, doesn't say much for "help".

Originally posted by IKC
Actually, what Revan knows isn't canon, but I'm glad you can make things up.

Sidious' knowledge and Force powers are both concrete and considerable. Revan's might be considerable if we knew what they were.

Actually those three I mentioned were...

I agree

Prove up. Where is it shown canonically that Revan knew those techniques?



They helped by adding their force power, not through any experience they possessed. You finished not knowing shit about what you're talking about yet?

No but I love how you downplay everyone's achievements and exaggerate Kun's... It's funny.

Again, Rakatan said he shot lightning from the sky and don't use that bullshit ship excuse again i've argued and beaten it a dozen times its impossible that it was a ship.

really choke is a technique that every Jedi can do...

Life drain... actually i'm not so sure on this logic would dictate he knew it along with a shit load of other techniques but nothing to prove it really... But aren't you the one that likes to draw logical conclusions?

No, you've not argued and beaten shit. It is not impossible that it was the ship, it's more than likely that it was. You cannot prove shit from a single quote from a bunch of primitives.

As for choke, sure he can do that.

Drain is unfounded.

Originally posted by IKC
No, you've not argued and beaten shit. It is not impossible that it was the ship, it's more than likely that it was. You cannot prove shit from a single quote from a bunch of primitives.

As for choke, sure he can do that.

Drain is unfounded.

For the last time

He couldn't have used his ship
He couldn't have used other ships
Jedi don't use blasters

He used the force, do you know a force technique besides lightning that can be described as "lightning from the sky" now for crying out load, use some of those logical assumptions you love to use about TOTJ characters for somebody else already.

And frying a few cave-Rakata is impressive... how?

It shows he learned lightning which IKC was arguing... also there were rancors there... That makes it a bit more impressive..

Prove up. Why couldn't he use his ship?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

"The field disrupted any electronic equipment that approached the Star Forge, causing ships to be caught in the gravitational field of the Rakatan planet. The Unknown World, as it was called, was littered with the wreckage of thousands of years of ships unlucky enough to stumble upon the Star Forge."

And

"This secrecy is further preserved by a powerful energy field surrounding the entire world that can disable any ship's communications and navigational abilities. Over the millennia, the Unknown World has become a technological graveyard, the tropical islands of its surface strewn with the wreckage of ships and cruisers unfortunate enough to have stumbled across the mysterious planet's hidden location. "

Taking from starwars.com and swkotor.com

Doesn't sound to me like they could use a ship... Or communication abilities to contact a ship outside of the shield...

So he didn't fly into the gravitational field.

And Revan could merely have lit a fire or something else, for the ship to spot. QED. You can't prove that it was the Force that Revan used, period.

Originally posted by IKC
So he didn't fly into the gravitational field.

And Revan could merely have lit a fire or something else, for the ship to spot. QED. You can't prove that it was the Force that Revan used, period.

So okay

revan bombed the exact scout party's that he was fighting by either 1.) Not being on the planet. 2.) lighting a fire.

This is just stupid IKC, I would not have thought you would go this low.

Anybody would know that is just bullshit, you allow an assumption on 1 million senators but an assumption on this you disagree with?

So if he wasn't in the shield then he couldn't have bombed them because he didn't know where they were if anybody there was hostile and he sure as hell didn't just randomly bomb the entire planet to ashes to be sure he wouldn't face anybody. So your point is bullshit.

Lighting a fire? Yes i'm sure he would sit down make a fire, thats big enough for people in ORBIT far away from the planet to see... Without fighting off or killing the scout party not to mention the most fact tht the scout party would likely move and the grass had returned there not much later. A fire that could be seen in orbit would have been huge... So as you like to say QED

Or Revan could merely have crashed a ship or shuttle on the planet, fixed it up, and flown it in suborbital altitudes and rained fire upon the Rakatan.

You cannot prove that his attack was a use of the Force. Your only evidence is a single vague quote from a primitive. You have no legs to stand on.

IKC starts losing logic in his arguments when the thread includes Kun

Originally posted by IKC
Or Revan could merely have crashed a ship or shuttle on the planet, fixed it up, and flown it in suborbital altitudes and rained fire upon the Rakatan.

You cannot prove that his attack was a use of the Force. Your only evidence is a single vague quote from a primitive. You have no legs to stand on.

Did you even read the quotes I provided? He couldn't fly anymore.

And how could he have fixed his ship, without encountering Rakatan?

You want Revan to suck so badly you are becoming an anti Revan fan boy, logical assumptions are allowed for others but not for Revan, even when its far more logical then say Vodo being the grand master of the Jedi Order? Hypocrisy?

Right with all of this stuff, IKC usually has an excuse why something anyone other than Kun did COULDN'T compare to Kun.. And with Kun it's usually "Oh he did this he's a force G-d". It's a Kun fanboy. IKC No offense but Kun isn't as uber as you'd like to believe.

Actually Kun is pretty damn uber...

I didn't say he wasn't, I said IKC makes him look like a force god that is only second to Ragnos

By that logic, the Ebon Hawk should have been stranded forever on that planet. It wasn't. Your point collapses. QED.



Seemed to manage it just fine when he found it for the second time.

You lose. QED. Go to bed.

IKC do you tell people they lose because they lose or because you want to tell yourself that you won a fanboy argument?

Originally posted by IKC
By that logic, the Ebon Hawk should have been stranded forever on that planet. It wasn't. Your point collapses. QED.

Only problem with this stupid logic is that he got the shield codes for the Ebon Hawk... Oh yeah seems you forgot about that now didn't you.





Only he travelled half way across the iland and found it near the temple of ancients..

Really dude stop making things up, stop lying and stop being so damned irritated. Revan simply could not have used a ship. QED.

Well it is POSSIBLE but highly HIGHLY unlikely.

How? Even if he found repairs he couldn't have started flying until after he got the codes...

Oh? So a freighter's shields can block the "zomg, uber powerful" energy field?

Then I guess the fleet that Revan commanded did the same. Capital ship shields, I gurantee you, are far stronger than the Ebon Hawk's. Ergo, it is likely that orbital bombardmant hit the primitives. QED.



Found what? Parts to fix his ship? Yeah, because the place is so static that those are the only spare parts he could find on the entire planet, despite it's a graveyard of lost ships.

And what good would a defense shield that you could shoot though be?

Anyway, for the fight, I see the following happening.

Sadow takes Kun after a long fight.

DE Sidious takes Revan. DE Sidious is usually either overrated or underrated. His lightsaber skill is probably a fair bit better then it was in ROTS(if not from more knowledge and training, then from the fact that he has a better body at this point.). Sidious will defeat Revan with force powers.

Yoda takes Malak, and him and DE Sidious fight Sadow. Sadow probably would be able to win, depending on how much Malak weakened Yoda by and how much Exar weakened Sadow by.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh? So a freighter's shields can block the "zomg, uber powerful" energy field?

Then I guess the fleet that Revan commanded did the same. Capital ship shields, I gurantee you, are far stronger than the Ebon Hawk's. Ergo, it is likely that orbital bombardmant hit the primitives. QED.


You really haven't played Kotor have you? And what idiot would find codes to his own ship on the temple of ancients?? Not to mention the fact that shields aren't knocked down by the planeterial shield... No Revan found codes to allow him to fly inside the shield that protects the planet and the Star Forge... Jesus how hard can it be to get that.




well that and the fact that the Tribe of the one and the elders try to claim the technology from the ships... and even if his ship could have been repaired, what good would it do seeing as he couldn't have flown it until he got the codes for the defensive shield that caused him to stay there, and he couldn't have gotten those codes without first fighting his way through Rakatan and Rancors with lightning from the sky.

Ergo he used force lightning the only other remaining option like I have told you a dozen times in the past QED.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
And what good would a defense shield that you could shoot though be?

Anyway, for the fight, I see the following happening.

Sadow takes Kun after a long fight.

DE Sidious takes Revan. DE Sidious is usually either overrated or underrated. His lightsaber skill is probably a fair bit better then it was in ROTS(if not from more knowledge and training, then from the fact that he has a better body at this point.). Sidious will defeat Revan with force powers.

Yoda takes Malak, and him and DE Sidious fight Sadow. Sadow probably would be able to win, depending on how much Malak weakened Yoda by and how much Exar weakened Sadow by.

Not going to argue the Yoda takes Malak thing now you can think what you want, but DE sidious what foce powers has he shown that he can use in a fight? I know jack shit about him, but really what has he done?

Oh, and even if the guns that Revan's ship used to fire at the Rakata planet were only 1% as powerful as a gun on an ISD, there would still be a fireball with a 1400 meter radius. This is all based off information from stardestroyer.net It rates that the average power from an ISD canon is 595 megatons. A 5.95 megaton nuke has a fire ball with a radius of 1400 meters according to the site.

In otherworlds, even if we assume that a ship can fire(which makes no sense as it defeats the purpose of the shield), even the years later that Revan came back there would have been massive craters. So, Fishy is right, it could not have been a ship.

Uh, who cares what Revan did to a bunch of primitives? How does this prove anything for a fight with other force users?

Or did the idea of substantiating not come into play in this discussion?

Originally posted by Wesker
Uh, who cares what Revan did to a bunch of primitives? How does this prove anything for a fight with other force users?

Or did the idea of substantiating not come into play in this discussion?

Not at all...

if you would go one or two pages back you would see that IKC said Revan didn't know force lightning I proved him wrong... thats what this debate was about. And knowing force lightning and having it powerful enough to destroy Rancors does mean something in a fight, especially if IKC so boldly claims that DE Sidious will destroy Revan because Revan doesn't even know attacks like that.

Ok so Yoda takes Malak that's agreed, supposedly DE Sidious takes Revan which is a hard one since anything with Revan is inconclusive and Sadow takes Kun.. So who wins

No, I said that the Force powers Revan knows are unknown. But I'm glad you've learned to read in your drunken stupor.

I've never seen anyone get so angry during a star wars debate...

Originally posted by Fishy
Not going to argue the Yoda takes Malak thing now you can think what you want, but DE sidious what foce powers has he shown that he can use in a fight? I know jack shit about him, but really what has he done?

I admit, I do have a bias towards Yoda. I don't think it's big enough to make my opinion bad though.

Anyway, Sidious has a massive control over the force at this time. His force storms were enough to destroy capital ships. If he put that in the form of a force push...

We also know that he was able to create these force storms on a anti-personnal scale. Luke was able to push one back on him, but from what I have heard, Luke had both Leia's and Anakin's force potential helping him. So assuming Leia has equal force potential to Luke and that Anakin is about three-quarters as strong(Anakin did seem to have the highest potential of the solo children), DE Luke was temporarily almost 3 times as powerful as normal. At his normal state, he was powerful enough to give Joruus a very hard time, who was able to control tens of thousands of minds for an extended period of time and even take over people's minds so forcefully that it would kill them(one of Thrawn's generals was killed by this).

I'll get more in a little, but I'm about to eat dinner.

Thrawn trilogies came after DE correct? And C'Baoth WAS a very powerful character, even though he was a clone.

The Thrawn trilogy came before DE.

Ah ok so Luke wasn't that much more powerful in those trilogies than he was in ROTJ..

Originally posted by IKC
No, I said that the Force powers Revan knows are unknown. But I'm glad you've learned to read in your drunken stupor.

You should do the same really



The first part is about the lightning, which we have been aruging about since then.. Okay thank you for paying attention to your own posts.

pwnd

How about you be consistant? I came in here saying what I just said: that Revan's powers are a big ****in' question mark.



Asshat.

And I said he used lightning and you said that was bullshit and I needed to prove up and I just did.

You lost the debate IKC...

And watch it with the insults, if you can't deal with debates then don't join them.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ah ok so Luke wasn't that much more powerful in those trilogies than he was in ROTJ..

No, Luke is several times more powerful then he was on ROTJ. The Thrawn books are 5 years after ROTJ, DE is 6 years after, and JA is 7 years after.

ah ok glentract I got it now.

Originally posted by Fishy
And I said he used lightning and you said that was bullshit and I needed to prove up and I just did.

Bullshit, you still have not proven that it was a Force attack, Fishy. Any one of the scenarios I've given you can work, your speculation has done nothing to discredit them.

I can't believe you're trying to argue this based on a single quote from one of a group of primitives who haven't seen or used advanced technology in millenia.

Originally posted by IKC
Bullshit, you still have not proven that it was a Force attack, Fishy. Any one of the scenarios I've given you can work, your speculation has done nothing to discredit them.

I can't believe you're trying to argue this based on a single quote from one of a group of primitives who haven't seen or used advanced technology in millenia.

It wasn't technology can't you get that through your head, it is impossible that it was a ship... Ships simply don't work there. What could it have been then?

it was ****ing force lightning jesus christ. IKC stop being a fanboy your guy lost.

Oh, and even if the guns that Revan's ship used to fire at the Rakata planet were only 1% as powerful as a gun on an ISD, there would still be a fireball with a 1400 meter radius. This is all based off information from stardestroyer.net It rates that the average power from an ISD canon is 595 megatons. A 5.95 megaton nuke has a fire ball with a radius of 1400 meters according to the site.

In otherworlds, even if we assume that a ship can fire(which makes no sense as it defeats the purpose of the shield), even the years later that Revan came back there would have been massive craters. So, Fishy is right, it could not have been a ship.

IKC, try and prove that it was a ship when taking this into consideration.

Even if it wouldn't leave a crater a ship is impossible, the thing is though IKC hates Kotor. He wants them so badly to suck and never allows an assumption even if it meets all the criteria that assumptions need according to him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Oh, and even if the guns that Revan's ship used to fire at the Rakata planet were only 1% as powerful as a gun on an ISD, there would still be a fireball with a 1400 meter radius. This is all based off information from stardestroyer.net It rates that the average power from an ISD canon is 595 megatons. A 5.95 megaton nuke has a fire ball with a radius of 1400 meters according to the site.

In otherworlds, even if we assume that a ship can fire(which makes no sense as it defeats the purpose of the shield), even the years later that Revan came back there would have been massive craters. So, Fishy is right, it could not have been a ship.

IKC, try and prove that it was a ship when taking this into consideration.

1. We've already seen the demonstrated firepower of KOTOR era ships in the FMV where Taris is ****ed. It was not resembling a 5.96 megaton. Again, you're taking one figure and twisting it to fit your ideals. There are NUMEROUS sizes and types of guns on the ISD. The KOTOR era guns might be as powerful as <1% of an ISD turbolaser... but of what size? Wong does his findings on the ones used in ESB to clear the asteroid field; large to midsized turbolasers. But you saying that they must be comparable to KOTOR ship weapons contradicts the FMV of Taris being destroyed. There's no 5.95 megaton chain reactions happening on those buildings being shot up. They could be using smaller turbolaser canons for a lesser effect. I mean, who the hell uses their largest weapons on primitives? Would you use an antitank launcher on a primitive warrior or a rifle?

2. Looking for craters on the planet? Good. While you're there find them where each and every ship crashed. Hell, there's a ship crash on the beach and the sand looks as flat as anywhere else, with perhaps a five or six foot across scortch mark.

3. The shield puts ships out of commission. It does NOT effect their weapons. Turbolaser ranges are excessive, and it is a possibility that they were used in this instance. Also, SW photon torpedoes have long ranges too.

Originally posted by Wesker
1. We've already seen the demonstrated firepower of KOTOR era ships in the FMV where Taris is ****ed. It was not resembling a 5.96 megaton. Again, you're taking one figure and twisting it to fit your ideals. There are NUMEROUS sizes and types of guns on the ISD. The KOTOR era guns might be as powerful as <1% of an ISD turbolaser... but of what size? Wong does his findings on the ones used in ESB to clear the asteroid field; large to midsized turbolasers. But you saying that they must be comparable to KOTOR ship weapons contradicts the FMV of Taris being destroyed. There's no 5.95 megaton chain reactions happening on those buildings being shot up. They could be using smaller turbolaser canons for a lesser effect. I mean, who the hell uses their largest weapons on primitives? Would you use an antitank launcher on a primitive warrior or a rifle?

2. Looking for craters on the planet? Good. While you're there find them where each and every ship crashed. Hell, there's a ship crash on the beach and the sand looks as flat as anywhere else, with perhaps a five or six foot across scortch mark.

3. The shield puts ships out of commission. It does NOT effect their weapons. Turbolaser ranges are excessive, and it is a possibility that they were used in this instance. Also, SW photon torpedoes have long ranges too.

1. doesn't matter of course they are weaker, there would still have been a crater

2. Well the ships can still brake, and most ships were there for a long time.

3. So are you honestly saying that a ship thats out of commision landing somewhere, likely on that iland but thats not even proven, would be able to shoot at rakatan war beasts and scout party's from god knows how far, knocking out several of them while Revan and Malak the two only confirmed people on that planet were near the party's, without any communication ability's, yeah sure that makes sense.?

Originally posted by Fishy
1. doesn't matter of course they are weaker, there would still have been a crater

2. Well the ships can still brake, and most ships were there for a long time.

3. So are you honestly saying that a ship thats out of commision landing somewhere, likely on that iland but thats not even proven, would be able to shoot at rakatan war beasts and scout party's from god knows how far, knocking out several of them while Revan and Malak the two only confirmed people on that planet were near the party's, without any communication ability's, yeah sure that makes sense.?

Don't speed read next time, please.

1. It's been almost five years since the invasion of Afghanistan. It's a sandy country. Go find me a five year old crater from a small weapon. The point is that craters not being present on the game map shouldn't be conclusive proof that there was no weaponry used. There's shootouts with large weapons ALL over Dxun. Airdrops, droids, etc. How many craters did you see on Dxun?

2. If a ship larger than a dinner table survives atmospheric entry and reaches terminal velocity, hitting the ground, there should realistically be craters. There aren't any. Period. The game map wasn't designed entirely for realism and attention to detail. After all, none of the Sith tombs make any sense, the Sith academy can let perhaps twelve people nap, and only four people live on a single floor in Taris. Hell, look at underwater Manaan. We're lucky the lightsabers are Photoshopped on!

3. Actually, if you read what I wrote, I was saying the determined range of turbolasers and photon torpedoes is considerable, enough to fire from well out of orbit. In fact, the "shield" generated by the Star Forge is laughable in that it only keeps out close broadside shots and landing parties. In space nothing is there to stop a turbolaser shot from singing across thousands of miles and slamming into the structure itself. Obviously the Ratakan did not fight beings with turbolasers.

But the idea of a derelict ship firing weapons from the ground is possible, but not likely the case, since it is specified as coming from the heavens.

Even so Janus, lets just assume that the ships could get in range of the planet and shoot, which is unproven really...

Then are you suggesting the Sith fleet or any ship for that matter would have shot down from the sky at the Rakatan war party's, but that it let the bases stand both of the elders and of the tribe of the one, that then Revan and Malak came down there somehow made the Rakatan believe they caused the attacks, without knowing their language. After doing that learned their language and then went on to do stuff...

Whats the possible reason. Revan doesn't seem like the person who would destroy a possible source of knowledge from space without knowing what it is.

Its also very unlikely that they would have attacked the scout party's and then let the bases live, leave the rancors near the temple live and not destroy the two bases from the sky. Also is there any reason to assume that they could just scan the planet?

Its impossible for it to have been a ship, its so incredibly unlikely because of way to many factors to even begin to state. It wasn't a ship, it wasn't technology it was force lightning on its most powerful state.

Originally posted by Fishy
Even so Janus, lets just assume that the ships could get in range of the planet and shoot, which is unproven really...

Actually, the possibility is there, which is my whole point. When I saw the quote, I assumed it was a turbolaser attack over two years ago. I still consider that a viable possibility. Notice that the Ebon Hawk didn't experience engine problems until it was well within range of the planet itself. In SW, combat takes place often in thousands of kilometers in range, as noted in ROTJ. In space, there's nothing to stop a turbolaser, even a small one, from pinpoint bombarding a location. As shown in the FMV with Taris being rained down upon, KotOR era ships apparently did not cause such drastic damage as Glentract implies, or at least could use smaller weapons and control said damage. And the idea of assuming it MUST be the force and it CANNOT be anything else is a bit premature. It IS a quote from a rather backwards, isolated society.



I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There's no indication that the war party was sitting on something precious. Where do -you- think a war party would convene? On a battle field, most likely. And it's likely that a battle was being fought. After all, where would be an instance indoors where Revan could summon "lightning from the sky". And really, if it's from the sky, it can't be sith lightning, since that's personally generated.



There's absolutely no indication that he ever put a building or source of knowledge in jeopardy. So this means nothing.



Actually, all this assuming and saying "unlikely" isn't really ground in any evidence or observable fact. You may want to rethink that. And scanning would be dubious at best, since there was interference over the planet.



Wow, talk about a leap of faith. You've ruled out the possibility of turbolasers entirely, despite the fact that pinpoint bombardment IS possible and I've shown that that KotOR ships are sufficient enough not to scar the entire planet just zapping a few primitives. I've shown that there's no indication of it being sith lightning, because it is described as coming from the sky, not being personally generated. Hell, even if I were to try and argue FOR sith lightning, it'd be a losing battle.

- The lightning came from the sky, not from Revan. Sith lightning specifically comes from one's hands. This is evident.

- Removing the above point, if we assume that it was indeed sith lightning and Revan shot it forth, we have no idea of the time it took to generate it. Also, we have no idea if it would be easily defended against by a greater force user.

I will say that it's very likely that Revan did know sith lightning, simply because Malak displayed it canonically and Revan was the master shortly beforehand. However, assuming from a single quote that Revan has "teh oobur ligtning" is ridiculous at best, biased at worst.

Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, the possibility is there, which is my whole point. When I saw the quote, I assumed it was a turbolaser attack over two years ago. I still consider that a viable possibility. Notice that the Ebon Hawk didn't experience engine problems until it was well within range of the planet itself. In SW, combat takes place often in thousands of kilometers in range, as noted in ROTJ. In space, there's nothing to stop a turbolaser, even a small one, from pinpoint bombarding a location. As shown in the FMV with Taris being rained down upon, KotOR era ships apparently did not cause such drastic damage as Glentract implies, or at least could use smaller weapons and control said damage. And the idea of assuming it MUST be the force and it CANNOT be anything else is a bit premature. It IS a quote from a rather backwards, isolated society.

K point,




What i'm getting at is the following..

the war party's were constantly scouting thats what they did. For some reason the Sith ships without having any knowledge of them shot at them. That is what you are claiming, I find this highly unlikely. Knowing Revan. And actually the Lightning thing. remember the third stage of lighting from Kotor? Revan raises his hands, shoots lightning into the sky from there on it finds and electrocutes its target. Primitives would see this as lightning from the sky. Seeing as he raised his hands as if calling the lightning then the lightning came from above his hand and shot them down. Far more logical then ship fire which doesn't even look like lightning.



He attacked a group of people he had no knowledge of and later on started talking to them... Do you think somebody who knew what was on the planet and had the intention of talking to them would have done something like that? Highly unlikely.



Exactly my point, so how could they without communication ability's have pinpointed the location where they needed to fire? And we know it wasn't a mass bombardment of the planet.



Read above, the most powerful form of lightning is done exactly like the Rakatan describe it, bombing the planet and the party's is unlikely as well. You yourself said scanning is unlikely to be possible.




Its exactly how it looks though.



And again that was not even the argument, I was just arguing IKC when he said Revan could not use it all. However looking at the game, we know its a power that can be learned and that Revan possibly learned it again if he did it was doable in just a second. We know it killed Rancors and rakatan that were attacking them, now it is possible Revan just sat down started meditating to kill them while Malak was holding them off, posisble but so inredibly unlikely and because of Ocam's razor and logical deducation or shit like that, the only logical conclusion would be: Revan shot Sith lightning and killedthem.



Powerful enough to kill Rancors and Rakatan, thats all I am saying. So it couldn't have been weak. Uber? No, probably not. No real evidence to prove that. However all I was claiming and that is what this debate is about that Revan used lightning there. And therefor knew it.

Hm. I'm hesitant to consider that it was the level three lightning, since that is a game manuever and suspect. After all, should we think that all other special effects shown for powers in game are canon? While I can see where you're coming from, I'm not sure that's the exact maneuver. But it's a good guess, definately.

As far as not communicating with the ship, well... That's debatable. I seem to recall the sith on the Star Forge cancelling out the transmissions from the Ebon Hawk or something. After all, in ANH the ISD jammed the transmissions of the Blockade Runner. The tech does exist. I wish I could reply the damn level and find out, but I let someone borrow my copy of KotOR and they haven't talked to me in months.

I'll need to review the dialogue from that level before I continue.

Yep, Carth tries to contact the Republic fleet, but the Sith jam him, as far as I can remeber...

Originally posted by Fishy
"The field disrupted any electronic equipment that approached the Star Forge, causing ships to be caught in the gravitational field of the Rakatan planet. The Unknown World, as it was called, was littered with the wreckage of thousands of years of ships unlucky enough to stumble upon the Star Forge."

And

"This secrecy is further preserved by a powerful energy field surrounding the entire world that can disable any ship's communications and navigational abilities. Over the millennia, the Unknown World has become a technological graveyard, the tropical islands of its surface strewn with the wreckage of ships and cruisers unfortunate enough to have stumbled across the mysterious planet's hidden location. "

Taking from starwars.com and swkotor.com

Doesn't sound to me like they could use a ship... Or communication abilities to contact a ship outside of the shield...

Prove enough if you ask me...

The lightning, I know it looks like gameplay stuff. But you have to remember what the Rakatan say is based on gameplay stuff that on just what they saw. Which is the same as we see in game, and thats an in game animation. I'd pretty much means Revan used lightning in a different way then other people of that time, but still that he used it.

That's what I thought. So communications is possible. I don't see the Ratakan blocking anything.

communications and navigational abilities were blocked...

How could he have talked to the Sith fleet?

Fishy, you are not with it lately.

Firstly, the appearance of the lightning is a gameplay mechanic. No one uses such lightning in a canonical appearance.

Secondly, the Ratakan did not likely have the ability to block Revan's communications.

Originally posted by Wesker
Fishy, you are not with it lately.

Firstly, the appearance of the lightning is a gameplay mechanic. No one uses such lightning in a canonical appearance.

Secondly, the Ratakan did not likely have the ability to block Revan's communications.

Janus...

We know thats how Revan his lightning looked, the game shows it as such. Lightning coming from the sky.

secondly the Rakatan did have the ability as the shield did just that as proven with those quotes... So, whats the problem?

Why would the Rakata find a turbolaser so impressive? They are the ones who made the SW after all...

Thousands of years of forgetting technology would make it impressive, no doubt about that.

The turbolaser however doesn't look at like lightning, Revan his lightning does. The turbolasers would have been a stupid thing to use without knowledge of the planet, Revan his lightning however would be very likely to have been used if they were in a fight.

Originally posted by Fishy
Janus...

We know thats how Revan his lightning looked, the game shows it as such. Lightning coming from the sky.

secondly the Rakatan did have the ability as the shield did just that as proven with those quotes... So, whats the problem?

Apparently I wasn't clear enough...

1- The lightning, even if we assume it is level three, comes from his hand, not the sky. Just cuz it arcs down doesn't mean it's coming from the sky. If I throw a bomb and it arcs and comes down to blow you up, did I drop a bomb from the sky? No.

2- The shield was from the ancient structure which the Ratakan COULD NOT ENTER. They were not force users. They had no control over the shield. And I doubt they blocked communications with their whicker baskets. Most likely, Revan had communications access.

Originally posted by Wesker
Apparently I wasn't clear enough...

1- The lightning, even if we assume it is level three, comes from his hand, not the sky. Just cuz it arcs down doesn't mean it's coming from the sky. If I throw a bomb and it arcs and comes down to blow you up, did I drop a bomb from the sky? No.

2- The shield was from the ancient structure which the Ratakan COULD NOT ENTER. They were not force users. They had no control over the shield. And I doubt they blocked communications with their whicker baskets. Most likely, Revan had communications access.

1.) Great so you are arguing now, that the Rakatan were stupid enough not to know the difference between lightning and fire from a ship, but couldn't possible be stupid enough to think that Revan with his arm in the air could summon lightning from the sky, lightning that hit them later on?

2.) The shield blocked communications, unless you had the shield codes you couldn't fly and communicate, Revan couldn't communicate.

1. Reading comprehension is your friend.

2. Nonsense. More than two of us pointed out that the Sith blocked the transmission, not the shield.

How do we know that it was the Sith personally who were blocking the transmission? How would Carth know? Seems to me it may have been like Han saying the Imperial Starfleet coudn't destroy a planet.

Cuz there's no reason or explanation for the primitive Ratakan doing it. And their tech is ancient as hell and misunderstood. However, the Sith forces at the Star Forge had the tech, the means, and the reason to do so.

The Rakata are primitive? They had technology that was better then either the Republic or the Sith(until the Sith got the SF).

You know, maybe we are taking the entirely wrong approach to this. Perhaps Revan actually called lightning down from the sky. Real lightning from mothernature, like a force pull or something.

The Ratakan on the planet are backwater ignormuses with no force powers to speak of, and the idea of "force pulling" a bolt of lightning is ridiculous.

The Elders had some sort of enery shield protecting their base. Obviously they aren't just some backwater weaklings.

Uh, did you play KOTOR within the last two years?

The shield was generated by the temple. They could not enter the temple, since they were not major force users. They state as much in the game. Also, they have no reason or means shown to simply eliminate all communications in the area.

Janus, the point of the shield was so they could remain secret. Allowing people to send for help would not help them remain secret.

To quote you, Glentract...

Proof of this?

WTF? They didn't want contact with the outside people. That was obviously shown in KOTOR. They were afraid the people they used as slaves would want revenge against them.

I never saw that. Where was that stated?

Originally posted by Wesker
1. Reading comprehension is your friend.

2. Nonsense. More than two of us pointed out that the Sith blocked the transmission, not the shield.

1.) Then what are you claiming

2.) Read the quotes I provided, it clearly says the shield blocks the transmission...

Ok if ROTS Sids could use Force Lightning does it not stand to reason that Revan knew such a techneque? Dear Lord I guess Revan sucks then. He does know any Dark Side powers becuase we have never seen him use them oh nos! He's so weak that he cannot use force lightning!

See where I am going with this?

Originally posted by Veneficus
Ok if ROTS Sids could use Force Lightning does it not stand to reason that Revan knew such a techneque? Dear Lord I guess Revan sucks then. He does know any Dark Side powers becuase we have never seen him use them oh nos! He's so weak that he cannot use force lightning!

See where I am going with this?

Reading comprehension is your friend.

As far as canon is concerned, we don't know shit about what specific force techniques Revan knows. Why? Because only dialogue, FMVs, and the storyline in general are canon. Gameplay. Is. Not.

Originally posted by IKC
Reading comprehension is your friend.

As far as canon is concerned, we don't know shit about what specific force techniques Revan knows. Why? Because only dialogue, FMVs, and the storyline in general are canon. Gameplay. Is. Not.

And dialogue confirms he knows lightning, if that isn't good enough for you then logical deduction and assumptions should be allowed as they are in threads with TOTJ characters and he would still know lightning, and if that isn't good enough either then read through the thread and come up with one possible alternative for lightning.

Wrong, because other than a quote from a backwater primitive, there's no evidence for him using the Force and he could have easily used technology.

Originally posted by IKC
Reading comprehension is your friend.

As far as canon is concerned, we don't know shit about what specific force techniques Revan knows. Why? Because only dialogue, FMVs, and the storyline in general are canon. Gameplay. Is. Not.

I was reading Ben-Her by the age of eight and I'm very aware of what your saying my reading comprehension is fine.

But assuming that Revan sucks simply becuase we have never actually canonicly seen him use lightning or other DS powers is somewhat hypocritical.

There are two more ways we can think about this.

1. What are the basic techniques taught to Jedi at the Enclave? Logically Revan would know these.

2. Could Revan had realisticly become DLOS knowing just the techniques that we canonically know he has?

The chances of Revan not being able to use force lightning are extremely slim. Malak was the lesser of the two and he was proficient in it. In fact many sith acolytes and dark jedi in the game were able to use it so why would Revan not? The fact that it was a force power that he was able to upgrade in the game shows that it is likely he was able to learn it.

Originally posted by Veneficus
But assuming that Revan sucks simply becuase we have never actually canonicly seen him use lightning or other DS powers is somewhat hypocritical.

Did you ever see me say that he sucks? Try quoting me for truth instead of talking out of your ass.

His canonical powers are a gigantic question mark. To our knowledge, he has no solidly unique power.



Duh. Telekinesis and the like is perfectly within the bounds of Revan's abilities. My meaning is that, beyond the obvious, we know jack about Revan's abilities.



Gameplay is not canon. Why haven't you been banned for being ten years old yet?

Originally posted by IKC
Did you ever see me say that he sucks? Try quoting me for truth instead of talking out of your ass.

You should reread your own posts. Look between the lines and you will realize that you have tired to downgrade Revan at every turn.



No need to bash the dude for sheer lack of understanding.

It's nice that you can infer, but that doesn't mean I implied. Unless I said it explicitly, I didn't say it. QED.



I'm bashing the kid for being ten years old and thereby breaking the terms of service for this forum. Got a problem?

Originally posted by IKC
Gameplay is not canon. Why haven't you been banned for being ten years old yet?

I was able to get the info I gave from cutscenes which according to you is canon. Malak is shown through a cutscene using lightning, as is a sith acolyte. The rest of my post is logical speculation. Why are you so desperate to get me banned you rules freak?

I see no problem with you being here really. You seem to be more intelligent than the average ten year old, even if most of your arguments are fatally flawed.

Originally posted by Numan
The chances of Revan not being able to use force lightning are extremely slim. Malak was the lesser of the two and he was proficient in it. In fact many sith acolytes and dark jedi in the game were able to use it so why would Revan not? The fact that it was a force power that he was able to upgrade in the game shows that it is likely he was able to learn it.

Last sentence.

And I'm wondering why you haven't already been banned because you're on a board whose terms of service require you to be above 13, I believe. You're ten.

Originally posted by IKC
Last sentence.

And I'm wondering why you haven't already been banned because you're on a board whose terms of service require you to be above 13, I believe. You're ten.

Actually it doesn't seem like you are wondering why. It seems like you are desperate to get me banned.

Well, technically IKC is right. You should wait three years and then post again.

And can you give me a link to canon policy because I don't see why gameplay should be ruled out in all cases.

Originally posted by IKC
It's nice that you can infer, but that doesn't mean I implied. Unless I said it explicitly, I didn't say it. QED.

*sigh* Whatever I'm not touching this anymore.




IKC now tell me... what has Numan ever done to you? Why do you care if he thinks Revan can blast Force lightning from his fingers? Why do you care what Numan thinks of a fictonal character who never existed?

While his arguments may be incorrect he certianly seems far more intelligent than your average 10 year old and I see no reason for you harp on him.

I'm inclined to agree with Veneficius on the point about Numan. He does seem to be more intelligent than the ordinary ten year old.

Hmmm . . . so many possibilities. . .

Yoda and Malak would be an excellent fight. Both are accomplished fighters and expert duelists. However, I do not believe that Malak would be so powerful as to take on Yoda - especially if it is conjectured that Dooku could take him. Yoda is smaller, quicker, and more powerful in the Force than Malak. After a few minutes, Yoda would overcome Malak.

Revan and DE Sidious would be an okay fight. DE Sidious's powers are superior to Revan's, and is at least the Sith Lord's equal in lightsaber combat. After a few minutes, I believe Sidious would kill Revan.

I don't know much about Sadow . . . but from what I've heard, he is stronger than Kun (which makes him the most powerful combatant here). But I doubt he could take Kun and Sidious at the same time.

Sadow v Kun = Sadow
Sadow v Sidious = Sadow
Sadow v Kun and Sidious = the duo.

Canon is not subject to your whims:





Why do you keep posting if you're not supposed to care?

And take a look at the Tulak Hord vs. Yoda thread and then come back here and tell me he makes intelligent statements.

You were the one who was making unintelligent comments. We can continue it if you want.

Originally posted by Wesker
1. Reading comprehension is your friend.

2. Nonsense. More than two of us pointed out that the Sith blocked the transmission, not the shield.

"This secrecy is further preserved by a powerful energy field surrounding the entire world that can disable any ship's communications and navigational abilities."

Does that prove it isn't a ship yet?

Ok so Sadow Revan and Malak take this I presume.

Ok so lets look at the relative strength of our contenders:

Revan is Kun's equal, stronger than Sidious, and stronger than Yoda

Malak is weaker than Sidious(if DE), around equal to or possibly stronger than Yoda, and weaker than Exar Kun

Sadow is stronger than everyone in the entire arena

Revan defeats Sidious
Malak defeats Yoda
Sadow defeats Kun

Revan, Malak, and Sadow win.

Revan is no where near Kun his equal, Kun would blast him to smithereens with that nifty amulet of his... Or destroy him with some other kind of force power.

Malak would definitly be able to stall Yoda for a very long time, probably beat him as well.

Sadow is indeed the most powerful of the group.

Sadow vs Kun, I would give to Sadow.

Revan vs Sidious, after just reading Escape his nice little post on DE Sidious i'm pretty sure he can take Revan.. That force storm of his, well i'm second guessing Kun taking him actually if that post is entirely true, it would be a contest of who shoots first. So Sids wins this

Malak vs Yoda, lets say Malak wins its going to be a long fight either way. Probably the longest, its just in Yoda's nature to make fights long.

So you would have a fight between Sadow and Kun that will last an unknown amount of time

A fight between Revan and Sids that will probably be over fast with Revan fried, unless it starts as a lightsaber fight in which Sids is probably screwed

and a fight that lasts forever

I'm guessing Kun Yoda and Sids win.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Ok so lets look at the relative strength of our contenders:

Revan is Kun's equal, stronger than Sidious, and stronger than Yoda

Malak is weaker than Sidious(if DE), around equal to or possibly stronger than Yoda, and weaker than Exar Kun

Sadow is stronger than everyone in the entire arena

Revan defeats Sidious
Malak defeats Yoda
Sadow defeats Kun

Revan, Malak, and Sadow win.

Why are you so wrong? How is Revan Kun's equal?

Sadow owns Kun
Revan and DE Sidious Stalemate
Yoda defeats Malak after a LONG battle.
So you'd pretty much have Yoda take on Sadow while Revan and Sidious are still dueling. A team with Sadow in this case is already the winner.

Alright. How is Revan DE Sidious' equal?

I'm pretty sure Revan is better with a lightsaber, however Sidious has shown far more powerful force abilities...

What he said

Substantiate. For all you know, they stalemate for a long time. It is certainly not going to be easy for Sadow to beat him.

Nobody said it would be easy, for all we know it would be easy.. But we know he would beat him

You just said it would be easy again. Substantiate.

I'm sorry, I forget you're all about the proper terms, and it's not logical to just go with what I said and understand it. For all we know he MIGHT be able to beat him easily. Ok?

No, because "for all we know" a fight between them is inconclusive.

"For all we know" Wicket might be the most powerful character in Star Wars. Don't lay down bullshit, prove up.

Kun became more powerful with Sadow's Amulet, Kun learned everything from Sadow's magic.. Add to the fact that Sadow is an ancient sith lord in the golden age, that alone means nobody after him is his equal. I could also speculate that DN Luke is more powerful than Kun but some things are obvious.

Unproven speculation, which conveniently coincides with him embracing the Dark Side. The only thing we know the amulet does is allow him to shoot blasts. That and it kills force spirits when you stick the thing inside them.



Flat-out lie. Kun also recovered things from Nadd's tomb and Korriban. There's also the small matter of his Jedi training.

But he did learn the majority of his sith knowledge from Sadow's private notes. And?



Bullshit. Do you think about what you're typing before you do it?

By your standards, even the most lowly Sith lord in the entire Empire during the Golden Age is greater than everyone who came after him. Nonsense.



Except neither you nor anybody else has proven it. Speculate all you want, but it means shit in a debate.

Ah the hypocrisy comes out in the fan boy. It's been proven that there is no equal to the Ancient Sith lords of the Golden Age. Not even your fanboyism could refute this.

Pardon? Care to point it out? Want to quote me for truth?



Yes, just restate your ridiculous claim without providing logic, evidence, or reasoning. That'll be a sure way to win any debate!



There's nothing in your post to refute. Just baseless claims and trolling.

Right well we've established that I'm a troll and you're a fanboy that won't go to sleep without thinking Kun pwns..

We've only established the former. You've provided exactly nothing to the contrary, only insisting on posting comments designed to goad me into lashing out at you.

Nice try, Goebbels.

Do all fanboys live in denial? When you are known as IKC the Kun fanboy, that would be something we've established no? Or does logic fail when fanboyism comes out?

Do all trolls live in a void of logic, evidence, and reasoning?



Known by whom? You?

You've established precisely dick.

Nice try, Goebbels. You're not quite the propagandist he was, though.



I don't know, you'll have to ask a fanboy. I can certainly attest to the fact that trolls have absolutely no sense of what a debate is.