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who wins this fight...

ohhhh red son would kick his norse butt.

Red Son had pre-crisis level powers, so I'd say Red Son.

Originally posted by supremthor
who wins this fight...

Thor .....loses (and gets his Uru hammer put in the 'Norse Legend' section of the Fortress of Solitude, next to Odin's missing eye and Beta Ray Bill's long-lost good looks).

RSS wins.

Originally posted by Private Pion
Red Son had pre-crisis level powers, so I'd say Red Son. ummmm no he didnt...he just never kept his powers in check, he just went balls out on his foes wiht his full might, but he'd still win thogh

Originally posted by supremthor
who wins this fight...

Depends if Thor is in the mood to kill or not. If not then he gets his butt whipped. If he is willing to kill and is uninhibited then he probably would smack superman around as easily as he took down the Gladiator or at worst as he took down universe level powers like Galactus or Ego the living planet.

Damn I finally Read the Red Son Comic and he was a bad ass at the end of the book smacking around Wonder Woman Green Lantern army and then those Supervillians I mean even Doomsday got taken out like nothing Red Son not Sun is a bad ass. Then Thor loses

ego beating Ego is pure crap Ego gives galactus trouble only reason thor beat ego is cause he caused problems to thors nervous sytem kinda like a virus does to a organism nothing more he messed up ego's nervous sytem not cause he was stronger cause he messed up ego's service causing him to go into shock thats it, and i hope to goodness he didnt beat galactus but if he did it sure must have been a hungry or weak one even the SS caused him trouble when he is hungry and he only has a fraction of galactus power.

Originally posted by Fanboy
Damn I finally Read the Red Son Comic and he was a bad ass at the end of the book smacking around Wonder Woman Green Lantern army and then those Supervillians I mean even Doomsday got taken out like nothing Red Son not Sun is a bad ass. Then Thor loses

Dont forget regular Thor (with no Odin power thanks to Dr. Strange) killed both the Thing and Hulk at the same time with absolute ease using just one arm. Whenever regular thor has been willing to kill (and hence has no inhibitions limiting his strength) he has easily physically over powered typical marvel characters such as Hulk, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, etc...

Physically, very few are stronger than an uninhibited Thor. Thanos is probably physically stronger (although Marvel hasnt always been consistent about this) and of course massive creatures like Galactus, and of course Odin himself who smacked Thanos around like a little boy (but couldnt kill him due to Thanos's immortality).

This is why Marvel has stated outright that regular Thor was the most powerful "hero" of all those who gathered to fight Thanos after Thanos had collected all the gems. I think it was the Silver Surfer who stated that he was the highest card in their hand and their one chance of taking out Thanos who had easily dealt with the Thing and the Hulk (just as a one-armed regular Thor did in more recent times).

In that series the writers did a wonderful job building the reader's hope, and things seemed to be going well as Thor entered the fray and started pummeling Thanos but just as he was being pounded into the ground, Thanos came to his senses and decided to use his infinity powers again and "cheated" turning thor into glass and then proceeding to kick the ass of every being in the universe.

i think that supes with his speed would win anyway

Originally posted by Mider
i think that supes with his speed would win anyway

Power is a combination of force and speed. Assuming that we are talking about a fixed amount of power, then more speed = less force.

umm i dont know were you get that but i thought more speed more force, being nearly invunrable his mass alone or body would be like a projectile to go through thor like a hot knife through butter.

Originally posted by Mider
umm i dont know were you get that but i thought more speed more force, being nearly invunrable his mass alone or body would be like a projectile to go through thor like a hot knife through butter.

Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Unless by going faster Superman is able to become more powerful, his ability to apply force actually decreases. E=mc<sup>2</sup> stands true even in the fictitious world of comics.

And unless youre saying Superman has tougher skin than Galactus, who almost died from a sustained god-force blast from regular Thor, DC's golden boy would be quickly turned into a fried twinkie and served for dessert in the halls of Valhalla.

i think that moment was CIS galactus has had planets thrown at him with less effect on him and more powerful beings have blasted him then thor like tyrant and have had less effect so do i say superman is toughter then galactus no im saying that feet him hurting galactus is purely CIS and thus shouldnt be taken litarally, anyway how would thor hit him if he cant even touch him, and supes is uber strong and in this form he wont hold back.

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Power is a combination of force and speed. Assuming that we are talking about a fixed amount of power, then more speed = less force.

Erm ....wrong. You actually have that whole thing backward.

Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration, thus the more you accelerate towards a faster speed the more force you will generate.

Thus; F=MxA, meaning that even if the mass is constant, an accelerating body will produce greater force.

Thus, the faster Superman accelerates the more force he will produce.

Try again.

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Unless by going faster Superman is able to become more powerful, his ability to apply force actually decreases. E=mc<sup>2</sup> stands true even in the fictitious world of comics.



Wrong again!


Actually this time it is even funnier since you put the E=MC<sup>2 formula. I wonder if you even know what it stands for.
The fact that you thought F was inverse to MxA makes me seriously doubt that.

speak english people

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Dont forget regular Thor (with no Odin power thanks to Dr. Strange) killed both the Thing and Hulk at the same time with absolute ease using just one arm. Whenever regular thor has been willing to kill (and hence has no inhibitions limiting his strength) he has easily physically over powered typical marvel characters such as Hulk, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, etc...

Physically, very few are stronger than an uninhibited Thor. Thanos is probably physically stronger (although Marvel hasnt always been consistent about this) and of course massive creatures like Galactus, and of course Odin himself who smacked Thanos around like a little boy (but couldnt kill him due to Thanos's immortality).

This is why Marvel has stated outright that regular Thor was the most powerful "hero" of all those who gathered to fight Thanos after Thanos had collected all the gems. I think it was the Silver Surfer who stated that he was the highest card in their hand and their one chance of taking out Thanos who had easily dealt with the Thing and the Hulk (just as a one-armed regular Thor did in more recent times).

In that series the writers did a wonderful job building the reader's hope, and things seemed to be going well as Thor entered the fray and started pummeling Thanos but just as he was being pounded into the ground, Thanos came to his senses and decided to use his infinity powers again and "cheated" turning thor into glass and then proceeding to kick the ass of every being in the universe.

Thor did not beat Hulk and Thing with absolute ease, he started with both arms and both eyes at the start of that fight, Wolverine slashed thors arm and slashed his left eye, after Thor's fight with Hulk and thing, he was missing his left arm from about the elbow down, and he was scuffed up.

http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0115ff.jpg

http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0122xm.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0131kn.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0144qv.jpg

http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0156lp.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0164hx.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0171vt.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0187wr.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0190si.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0203wn.jpg

i dont see thor beating red son he is like when he fought wonder women perhaps just insanly powerful and he is faster then thor thats for sure he would hit thor so fast he wouldnt know what happend he'd probably remove a few organs with out him knowing thats how fast he is he may not have full strengh at super speed which i dont think is true but even then mass and width do equal force or whatever the equation is.

Originally posted by spetznaz
Wrong again!


Actually this time it is even funnier since you put the E=MC<sup>2 formula. I wonder if you even know what it stands for.
The fact that you thought F was inverse to MxA makes me seriously doubt that.

Where do you get F is inverse to MxA from what I wrote?

P=FxV

If P is fixed (ie., Superman cant suddenly become more powerful than he was before) then if V increases (the speed at which he moves), his F decreases (the Force he can apply). Get it?

Lets toss in some numbers to illustrate the point.

P=100
F=X
V1=2
V2=10

If Superman's power is 100, and his velocity (V1) is 2, his force (F) = P/V1 = 100/2 = 50

If he moves faster and his velocity (V2) is 10, then his force (F) = P/V2 = 100/10 = 10

Get it?

Force is inverse to Velocity where Power is a constant. In other words, the faster he moves the less force he can apply.

If you understand electric motors then you would be able to understand that for a certain amount of power (kilowatts) when you increase the rpm your torque decreases and at lower rpm you will have more torque.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Thor did not beat Hulk and Thing with absolute ease, he started with both arms and both eyes at the start of that fight, Wolverine slashed thors arm and slashed his left eye, after Thor's fight with Hulk and thing, he was missing his left arm from about the elbow down, and he was scuffed up.



IIRC as to why the scenes were left out, it was said that it was like like Batman taking on a couple of punks, ie, quick and uninteresting.

After wolverine surprised him and chopped his arm off and poked out his eye, hulk and thing rushed him together and despite having no depth perception and just one arm to fight with (not to mention no odin force and only his crippled physical ability) they were both dead so quickly Marvel didnt bother drawing in the scenes.

Wolvering didn't chop off Thor's arm, in the scene that he slashed Thor, you can see his arm is still in tact, just wounded. The fight between Thor and the others was not a quick one, in the scene in which Hulk and Thing lay dead, Thor says "You fought me for hours". In that very same scene it can be seen that Thor is missing his left arm, and he is scuffed, cut and battered. He did not effortlessly put down Hulk and Thing, as it is shown they battled for hours and it cost Thor his left arm. In the next scene Captain America is able to knock down thor with a kick, the fight with The Hulk and thing obviously took alot out of him.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Wolvering didn't chop off Thor's arm, in the scene that he slashed Thor, you can see his arm is still in tact, just wounded. And the fight between Thor and the others was not a quick one, in the scene in which Hulk and Thing lay dead, Thor says "You fought me for hours".

If in saying that he is talking to the dead and unresponsive corpses of the hulk and the thing then Marvel might have simply wanted to save a few pages to save a few bucks rather than the excuse they gave that it was an easy fight. But then again they did say it was an easy fight. How could it not be when thor is fighting with one arm. I think its pretty well understood that wolverine sliced off the arm. Are you suggesting that the hulk or thing somehow removed a portion of thor's arm? The only character to ever break his bones was the destroyer who is far more powerful than thing or hulk.

The scans show his arm is still intact prior to his fight with Hulk and Thing, and yes the fight between Hulk and Thing was hours in length, it is stated in the scans, he didnt beat them in one minute, then sit around for hours then decide to make that statement. And yes it is possible, probable even that Hulk and or Thing ripped off Thor's wounded arm, if wolvering can cut it, then Hulk or Thing can rip it off. Thor looked pretty ruffed up after that fight, to the point of being able to be taken down by one kick from a tired looking captain america.

Originally posted by Jesse7
The scans show his arm is still intact prior to his fight with Hulk and Thing, and yes the fight between Hulk and Thing was hours in length, it is stated in the scans, he didnt beat them in one minute, then sit around for hours then decide to make that statement. And yes it is possible, probable even that Hulk and or Thing ripped off Thor's wounded arm, if wolvering can cut it, then Hulk or Thing can rip it off. Thor looked pretty ruffed up after that fight.

Wolverine did cut it and even against Desak it was the odinpower that kept thor alive, similarly it was probably the odinpower keeping his body together after it was sliced through. If not the odinpower it could not have been much holding it on if the thing or hulk were, after all these fights where they couldnt do any serious damage were able to rip it off all together.

If the fight was very long, thats fine with me, and certainly would make sense given that one of them had only one arm to fight with. Even if the fight took a week, the fact that both the thing and the hulk ended up dead to just regular thor with one arm and no odin power or hammer should be an indication of the true relative strength of regular thor when he is uninhibited. In the blood and thunder series his strength kept increasing with his madness and he took out a Power Gemed Drax with one hit. Once he had the power gem, thanos was remarkable able to fight toe-to-toe with him, which says more about thanos i think, but said that eventually he would get free and kill them all. In other words, thor's power was still growing, or rather, unveiling itself.

Originally posted by Jesse7
http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0115ff.jpg

http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0122xm.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0131kn.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0144qv.jpg

http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0156lp.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0164hx.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0171vt.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0187wr.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0190si.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0203wn.jpg

Thanks for the scans btw. Very nice quality.

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Where do you get F is inverse to MxA from what I wrote?

P=FxV

If P is fixed (ie., Superman cant suddenly become more powerful than he was before) then if V increases (the speed at which he moves), his F decreases (the Force he can apply). Get it?

Lets toss in some numbers to illustrate the point.

P=100
F=X
V1=2
V2=10

If Superman's power is 100, and his velocity (V1) is 2, his force (F) = P/V1 = 100/2 = 50

If he moves faster and his velocity (V2) is 10, then his force (F) = P/V2 = 100/10 = 10

Get it?

Force is inverse to Velocity where Power is a constant. In other words, the faster he moves the less force he can apply.

If you understand electric motors then you would be able to understand that for a certain amount of power (kilowatts) when you increase the rpm your torque decreases and at lower rpm you will have more torque.

LOL.
Ok, here goes:

1) You said the following: '
Power is a combination of force and speed. Assuming that we are talking about a fixed amount of power, then more speed = less force.'

In essence you are saying that the faster Superman goes the less force he will have.
That is baloney (politely speaking), and against F=MxA.
The faster Superman goes, meaning the faster he accelerates towards the greater speed, the more force he will apply.
That goes against what you were saying (and unless you are willing to rewrite some of the most basic bastions of Physics just admit you are wrong).

2) Now, in the post above you put the following formula:

P=FxV.

Power is basically energy (or work) transferred per unit time,and the formula you put basically states it in the form of the object's force multiplied by the object's velocity.
Thus it is an accurate formula.

However just because you can jot down a formula accurately doesn't mean squat if you do not comprehend its application (and the way you explained the whole thing,including your nice lil' numbers, shows rudementary comprehension at best).

P=FV
Correct.
However that can be expanded into the following:
P=FV
= (funct. of) F x s. where F is force, and s. is displacement
= (funct. of) (MA).s where F is broken down to Mass x Accel.

Now, guess what happens when Superman starts to move faster (in other words, when his rate of speed increases ....otherwise known as acceleration)?
His A goes up, and thus F (being equal to M.A) goes up as well.
Consequently F is higher, and with P being equal to F.V the power he can do goes up.

Thus there is no rationale for you to say that power remains constant. That is an irrational (and incorrect) assumption.

Let's go to the real world.
The US is working on an anti-ballistic missile program, whereby a kill vehicle is mounted on a missile.
The kill vehicle has absolutely no explosives .....the way in which it destroys the incoming ICBMs (as opposed to the 1960s Sprint and Spartan programs that entailed nuclear warheads), is by using kinetic energy to smash into the ICBM and vaporize it.
To do this it accelerates to tremendous speed (hypersonic), and even though it is a relatively small KV it still produces enough force to literally turn the oncoming missile to dust.

Now, according to your post, the faster the KV went then the less force it would have!

You said the following: ...if V increases (the speed at which he moves), his F decreases (the Force he can apply). Get it? .....

Hmmm, you ARE saying that the faster an object moves (the faster its rate of speed increase, i.e acceleration, is) that the less F becomes.
An increase of V means that acceleration is taking place; i.e it goes from V1 to V2 over a period of time. And you are saying that when that happens Force decreases!

I'm sorry, but that is inane.
(BTW ...if you can coherently prove otherwise you just nabbed yourself a Nobel prize in physics).

Awesome post Spetz.

If the other guys theory was correct...

Then we can take a bullet and throw it at someone - it'll ping off their head and hurt them, maybe leave a small bruise.

Fire it at them at 1000mph - and hey - it bounces off them again, only this time with less force, so they don't even feel it....

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Power is a combination of force and speed. Assuming that we are talking about a fixed amount of power, then more speed = less force.

Rubbish.

Power = just means work done in a period of time. Force does not decrease its just be applied more rapidly.

Originally posted by aliveinboston
Thanks for the scans btw. Very nice quality.

Thank you, but I cannot take credit for them, I found them posted on a past string on this forum by spideycarnage.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=393076&highlight=king+thor+hulk

if you throw a bullet at someone it wont hurt them if you shoot it and its super fast it will hurt them so how can you say that the faster it goes the less power it uses