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Thrawn Commands the Imperial Fleet, while Revan attacks with his Star Forge Fleet ( Shown at the end of Kotor if you choose the Dark Side ending). No Death Star nor Star Forge, nor any force powers

In this battle its soley mititary genius, so who wins? The Tactical Genius Revan or Thrawn?

I think thrawn. As long as he gets a peek at Revans favorite work of art that is.

You disregard, that Revan defeated a enormously superior Mandalorian Army that outnumbered and outgunned them...

And its known that Revan' specialty was tactics in space battles...

Originally posted by w00t2112
You disregard, that Revan defeated a enormously superior Mandalorian Army that outnumbered and outgunned them...

And its known that Revan' specialty was tactics in space battles...

you disregard, that Thrawn deafeated a superior new republic fleet that outnumbered and outgunned them...

And its known that Thrawn's specialty was everything.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Jedi
you disregard, that Thrawn deafeated a superior new republic fleet that outnumbered and outgunned them...

And its known that Thrawn's specialty was everything.

Except the Republic in his time was weaker than Thrawn, and that the Mandalorian Warriors were Superior to the Republic Fleet...

w00t are you making a habit making a Versus Threads in this area?

Wrong forum?

Yeh, plz move it

Not like it matters, Thrawn has far greater weapons.

I believe the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1.

And Revan had an unlimited army, along with 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and still couldn't pwn the Republic.

Gotta give it to Thrawn.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
I believe the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1.

And Revan had an unlimited army, along with 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and still couldn't pwn the Republic.

Gotta give it to Thrawn.

What are you talking about? Revan was decimating the Republic fleet until the Jedi Order captured him, and then Malak took his place and still pwned the Reoublic. The only way the Republic was winning was Bastila's Battle Meditation.

Speaking of which, in the Thrawn trilogy, I believe that much of Thrawn's success comes from Joruus C'Baoth's use of Battle Meditation. Revan did not have that ability and look how well he did. Revan takes this.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
What are you talking about? Revan was decimating the Republic fleet until the Jedi Order captured him, and then Malak took his place and still pwned the Reoublic. The only way the Republic was winning was Bastila's Battle Meditation.

Speaking of which, in the Thrawn trilogy, I believe that much of Thrawn's success comes from Joruus C'Baoth's use of Battle Meditation. Revan did not have that ability and look how well he did. Revan takes this.

When was Revan decimating the Republic fleet? He couldn't even think of attacking the core worlds (source: sith and republic soldiers on manaan) even with the unlimited army. Revan was a threat, as was Malak. That's why the Jedi had to capture/kill him.

His Empire was putting up a good fight with the Republic, but was not decimating them.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
I believe the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1.

And Revan had an unlimited army, along with 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and still couldn't pwn the Republic.

Gotta give it to Thrawn.

The mandelorians were outnumbered in the final battle at the end of the war, that much is certain 10 to 1 according to Canderous. That however doesn't say much about the rest of the war, logic would dictate that they would be outnumbered. However they had 40 years of fighting experience superior weapons and shields that could stop blaster fire, things that the republic did not have.

Revan turned around the tide of the war, destroying the Mandelorians with indeed 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and he had to protect a large area with that fleet. Any general can tell you its easier to destroy an enemy that has a bigger force when your invading his country then it is to defend your country from an army with a smaller force, if the battles are wide spread at least, not like it matters really. Skill is more important then numbers anyways.

The unlimited army thing, yes he got an unlimited army, ships, droids, weapons, energy shields, armor, however he did not get unlimited troops. He started conquering the republic with a 3th of its fleet assuming every single Republic soldier that served under Revan during the Mandelorian wars joined him during the Sith wars. Then more people started joining his cause.

There were also a few reasons why the republic hadn't fallen yet. Bastila her battle meditation, battle meditation is very effective and important, it could turn the tide of entire battles and wars, to fight is hard. Still Revan won most battle's, Bastila gave the republic a few key victory's that helped them to survive. This is literally said in game.

Revan his fall from power, with Malak in command the republic had superior tacticians and could do far better however this time they were destroyed by sheer numbers.

Revan trying to keep the republic in tact, if you can't destroy what you attack and have to conquer everything it takes far more time and troops.

Just felt like clearing that up... The fight however is easily won by Thrawn as he has far superior technology and his fleet would destroy Revan his fleet. Revan his only chance is to act like a rebel and strike and run and strike and run, perhaps his force users would give him victory in a full out war that gives him a chance, however in one battle? He couldn't stand up to the power of SSD's and SD's.

Anyways, there are other reasons I picked Thrawn.

He managed to, with a portion of the Imperial fleet, nearly take the Republic, even when the Republic's forces were "a lot better trained and motivated than the Empire's".

Thrawn was battling tactical geniuses like Ackbar who worked for the New Republic. And he still was owning.

Thrawn was very unique in the way he studied all the species he fought. He'd study their artwork, their history, etc. Just to gain an idea of their thought process and the like. Might not make a difference here, but makes him seem like a very good admiral.

"The mandelorians were outnumbered in the final battle at the end of the war, that much is certain 10 to 1 according to Canderous. That however doesn't say much about the rest of the war, logic would dictate that they would be outnumbered. However they had 40 years of fighting experience superior weapons and shields that could stop blaster fire, things that the republic did not have."

The Republic would have it's fair share of technology and war heroes as well, but I agree with the better warrior parts. All Mandalorians loved war, and thus they were Warriors not Sodiers. To a soldier, war is hell, and you would want to end it as soon as possible. The Mandalorians loved the thrill. They loved killing. That's why I think they were so formidable.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
Anyways, there are other reasons I picked Thrawn.

He managed to, with a portion of the Imperial fleet, nearly take the Republic, even when the Republic's forces were "a lot better trained and motivated than the Empire's".

Thrawn was battling tactical geniuses like Ackbar who worked for the New Republic. And he still was owning.

Thrawn was very unique in the way he studied all the species he fought. He'd study their artwork, their history, etc. Just to gain an idea of their thought process and the like. Might not make a difference here, but makes him seem like a very good admiral.

Not denying that, but this fight he wins because of technology, not because of tactical skill, its hard to guess who has that..

btw: There is evidence to suggest Revan did the same thing with his enemy's, of course he only had two so it couldn't have been that hard to do, but still... And Revan beat a tactical genius like Mandalore, Canderous and many other great Mandelorians in battle. Really its hard to say who will win in a real fight with equal weapons and troops if not impossible.

Originally posted by Fishy
Not denying that, but this fight he wins because of technology, not because of tactical skill, its hard to guess who has that..

btw: There is evidence to suggest Revan did the same thing with his enemy's, of course he only had two so it couldn't have been that hard to do, but still... And Revan beat a tactical genius like Mandalore, Canderous and many other great Mandelorians in battle. Really its hard to say who will win in a real fight with equal weapons and troops if not impossible.



ishy, I am amzed because for once I agree with you! :P

Originally posted by Fishy
The mandelorians were outnumbered in the final battle at the end of the war, that much is certain 10 to 1 according to Canderous. That however doesn't say much about the rest of the war, logic would dictate that they would be outnumbered. However they had 40 years of fighting experience superior weapons and shields that could stop blaster fire, things that the republic did not have.

Revan turned around the tide of the war, destroying the Mandelorians with indeed 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and he had to protect a large area with that fleet. Any general can tell you its easier to destroy an enemy that has a bigger force when your invading his country then it is to defend your country from an army with a smaller force, if the battles are wide spread at least, not like it matters really. Skill is more important then numbers anyways.

The unlimited army thing, yes he got an unlimited army, ships, droids, weapons, energy shields, armor, however he did not get unlimited troops. He started conquering the republic with a 3th of its fleet assuming every single Republic soldier that served under Revan during the Mandelorian wars joined him during the Sith wars. Then more people started joining his cause.

There were also a few reasons why the republic hadn't fallen yet. Bastila her battle meditation, battle meditation is very effective and important, it could turn the tide of entire battles and wars, to fight is hard. Still Revan won most battle's, Bastila gave the republic a few key victory's that helped them to survive. This is literally said in game.

Revan his fall from power, with Malak in command the republic had superior tacticians and could do far better however this time they were destroyed by sheer numbers.

Revan trying to keep the republic in tact, if you can't destroy what you attack and have to conquer everything it takes far more time and troops.

Just felt like clearing that up... The fight however is easily won by Thrawn as he has far superior technology and his fleet would destroy Revan his fleet. Revan his only chance is to act like a rebel and strike and run and strike and run, perhaps his force users would give him victory in a full out war that gives him a chance, however in one battle? He couldn't stand up to the power of SSD's and SD's.

About your quote, on superior weaponry, that might not be neccessary true, eg. The Suncrusher is for more technologically powerful than the Death Star, able to denote Star Systems, imagine the Imperials having that...

Another Piece of techonogly is the Star Forge, it is many times more powerful Dark side Tech, as it can spawn unlimited battle droids and batlle ships, but since neither of those are included in this thread, then it can be assumed that Thrawn had superior fire power, but as proven, there were losses in techonology that was never recovered..

Uh, is everyone going to just ignore that KotOR era ships are smaller and weaker?

Revan is Thrawn's superior in sheer intelligence and military know how...

Technology matters though... I dont know...

Originally posted by Wesker
Uh, is everyone going to just ignore that KotOR era ships are smaller and weaker?

Provide proof that they are, most of the Kotor ships were forged from the darkside energies of the Star Forge, and comparing other factors, there is nothing to say, that the later ships were anymore advanced.

The Suncrusher, is practically indestructible, can donate Stars and somehow, the techonolgy 5000 years later, cannot reproduce something as deadly, the closest they got was the Death Star

THe Leviathan is the flagship of the Admiral in the Sith Fleet. It's alot smaller than a single ISD. The Empire has thousands of ISDs (25,000 I believe).

The Empire also had technology that further enhanced lasers, just recently developped in the Clone Wars. It's name eludes me however.

Originally posted by Wesker
Uh, is everyone going to just ignore that KotOR era ships are smaller and weaker?

No, stated that in all my posts as the reason Thrawn wins.

Originally posted by w00t2112

The Suncrusher, is practically indestructible, can donate Stars and somehow, the techonolgy 5000 years later, cannot reproduce something as deadly, the closest they got was the Death Star

Um... wasn't the suncrusher a prototype imerial superweapon from the Jedi Academy Trilogy? It was after both Revan and Thrawn.

Originally posted by docb77
Um... wasn't the suncrusher a prototype imerial superweapon from the Jedi Academy Trilogy? It was after both Revan and Thrawn.

Read TOTJ, The Suncrusher, was destroyed when kun used it to denate a star system, being on Yavin 4, however, we can deduce Kun had most likely, created prototypes of it.

I'm still not finding any references to Suncrusher pre-empire. I did find a reference to tales of the jedi saying that kun caused a star to go supernova, but I thought that was a force thing. Any idea where I can find TOTJ to see for myself?

Sadow created a ship, a ship that Kun gave to a weak Dark Jedi sith thing, that used it to make stars go supernova.

ah so this Suncrusher that we're talking about for this thread isn't the practically invincible one from JAT.

Well it got destroyed as the Sun went supernova, as most things would, being caught in the crossfire of an exploding sun.

I'm sure that you people all know that Imperials are very bad shooters in TIE Fighters, right? And in the space battle in KOTOR 1 at the end shows that Sith Fighters are much more skilled than the Imperials. I mean... the Imperials couldn't even hit the Millenium Falcon unless they're lucky, and Falcon's big compared to regular fighters.

But Imperial Star Destroyers have tiny turrets all lined up on their surface, but Sith Flagships have 20 lasercannons (seen in the bombardment of Taris, Knights of the Old Republic) all on one side, and could simply bombard Star Destroyers from the sides or above.

And yes. I know that Imperial Star Destroyers are huge compared to Sith Flagships. (Star Destroyer: 1200 metres, Sith Flagship: 600 metres: From info from Starwars.com), but it's not size that matters. I mean you all remember Hannibal right? Always remember that he defeated Roman armies much bigger than his. It's not numbers that win battles: Its the strategies of the leaders that wins battles.

I'm sure that you people all know that Imperials are very bad shooters in TIE Fighters, right? And in the space battle in KOTOR 1 at the end shows that Sith Fighters are much more skilled than the Imperials. I mean... the Imperials couldn't even hit the Millenium Falcon unless they're lucky, and Falcon's big compared to regular fighters.

And I'm sure you can judge two entire Empires' filled of pilots by seconds of cinematics, right? Keep in mind the Empire was ordered to keep the Rebels alive for a show for Luke. Not only that, the Empire has far greater numbers and far greater ships. Pilots are a variable, since there are tons of great Empire pilots in the EU.

But Imperial Star Destroyers have tiny turrets all lined up on their surface, but Sith Flagships have 20 lasercannons (seen in the bombardment of Taris, Knights of the Old Republic) all on one side, and could simply bombard Star Destroyers from the sides or above.

No. A single ISD can take over a dozen of Leviathan. Leviathan = 4 turbolasers, ISD = 60 turbolasers. And the Leviathan = flagship. The Executor or the Eclipse could probably take on dozens of Leviathans.

And their lasers do puny to Taris. They really couldn't hurt an ISD unless they use their small amount of Turbolasers.

And yes. I know that Imperial Star Destroyers are huge compared to Sith Flagships. (Star Destroyer: 1200 metres, Sith Flagship: 600 metres: From info from Starwars.com), but it's not size that matters. I mean you all remember Hannibal right? Always remember that he defeated Roman armies much bigger than his. It's not numbers that win battles: Its the strategies of the leaders that wins battles.

1600 metres, actually. A flagship being nearly 10 tens that. And 25,000 of them too.

Plus, Thrawn is the greatest military tactician the galaxy's ever seen... the Empire wipes its ass with Revan.

Empire has bad pilots? Tell that to Baron Fel and Kasan Moore.

Here's some proof on the empire's massive fleet superiority: Let's compare flagships...the Leviathan had...four turbolaser batteries. Four. The STANDARD Imperial class Star Destroyer has 100...plus. The Leviathan has two ion cannons...the standard imperial class star destroyer has twenty. The Leviathan has twenty quad laser cannons, the Imperial class star destroyers have eight octuple turrents.

The Leviathan is 600 meters...the Imperial Star Destroyer is 1,600. The Imperial Star Destroyer has massively powerful plating and two shield generators.

And that sun destroying ship of Sadow's? Well, ever hear of the Suncrusher of the Maw Installation? Sadow's ship destroying the Denarii didn't even touch a planet...Palpatine's Sun Crusher could destroy an entire solar system. And for every Leviathan style cruiser? Thrawn has two hundred of them with more firepower.

Thrawn could also detect Revan's strategies, likely obsolete by Thrawn's time by seeing any of Revan's old finger paintings and considering his deduction for Honoghr and the Katana Fleet...it's a matter of time before he figures out the Rakata issue. And that's not even taking into account Thrawn's influence with the Chiss and the Empire of the Hand

Revan....he could fight blade to blade....Thrawn's good though

Originally posted by Julie
Revan....he could fight blade to blade....Thrawn's good though

If this were close quarter combat Thrawn would be massacred

But since it is a tactical battle, with Thrawn having better technology, its hard one.

Revan COULD be the better tactician though (Echani precognition that rivalled those of the Echani elders... allowed him to foresee the outcome of wars)

I really don't see how Revan could be a better tactician than Thrawn. First off, in Survivor's Quest isn't Thrawn stated to be the greatest genius in galactic history?

Now, in the Thrawn Trilogy, Thrawn commanded a slice of the Imperial fleet and almost managed to conquer the Republic. And, as well the Republic was noted as something like "better trained and motivated", and I could see why as the Empire was in disorder.

Look at all the people was facing -- Ackbar, Derlin, Luke, Wedge. I mean really, he died thanks to his supposed "bodyguards", the Noghri, who assassinated him.

I would definitely say Thrawn would be able to best Revan with his sheer tactical brilliance, albeit Revan is quite the tactician himself, but what we've seen him do, IMO, doesn't stack up to what Thrawn had done with a hell of a lot less resources.

doesnt thiss belong in vrs forum

I thought it was Heir that stated Thrawn as the best. Either way.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
doesnt thiss belong in vrs forum

How the hell do you mangle English this bad?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I thought it was Heir that stated Thrawn as the best. Either way.

It might've been actually. But, yeah, either way it doesn't matter too much.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
How the hell do you mangle English this bad?

"datsss wut ivanna no!11!"

RRRRRREEEEEVVVVVAAAAANNNNN!!!!!

Originally posted by Fierce Deity
RRRRRREEEEEVVVVVAAAAANNNNN!!!!!
Yay for fanboyisim....

Thrawn has a superior fleet. Without the Star Forge Revan loses.

Is everyone going to ignore the fact that trying to judge Revan's tactical skill is impossible?

Or that the KotOR era ships are puny compared to ISDs?

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Is everyone going to ignore the fact that trying to judge Revan's tactical skill is impossible?

Or that the KotOR era ships are puny compared to ISDs?
Yep... logic does not exist at KMC.

True,Traya,but Revan made the best out of what he had,but regardless,I'd say Thrawn.

Ok, he wouldn't have as many ships without the Star Forge. And the ships the build up Revan's fleet are puny compared to ISDs.

Originally posted by Razielim
When was Revan decimating the Republic fleet? He couldn't even think of attacking the core worlds (source: sith and republic soldiers on manaan) even with the unlimited army. Revan was a threat, as was Malak. That's why the Jedi had to capture/kill him.

His Empire was putting up a good fight with the Republic, but was not decimating them.

I'm a little late and this has probably already been brought up, but Revan didn't attack the core worlds because his goal wasn't to destroy the Republic. He wanted to keep it intact. -_-;

And we know his intentions now? News to me.

What I saw was Revan waging war on the Republic, battling Republic fleets and conquering systems.

What? Did you even play KotOR II? G0-T0 makes it pretty apparent that Revan didn't want to annihalate the Republic.

The entire point of Revan's war was to keep the Republic strong enough to withstand an external excursion from the remnants of the ancient sith. He tended to leave certain key planets intact in his strategies.

I'll talk to him when I boot up my game in the morning, but I don't remember him mentioning Revan trying to strengthen the Republic. I remember some vague quotes about him trying to protect the galaxy, nothing with a Republic . . .

You might be right, I didn't spend much time talking to him anyways