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Definition: Unmerited favor.

People usually talk about "Grace" within the realms of religion and God.

Though within quantum physics and M-theory and also String theory, science is suggesting that all things are "One." One big entity, one mind composed with many smaller minds (us) perhaps. We affect each other, we give and take away. The combination of the time and space related aspects of waveforms or vibrations are what molds our four dimensional reality of the time/space continuum and all things in it.

Your thoughts and your desires are waveforms. Your beliefs are waveforms. Passing thoughts and casual desires are mutable waveforms. Clear consistent thought patterns and constant fervent desires are solutions. Opinions are mutable waveforms. Core beliefs are solutions.

Mutable waveforms adapt to preexisting circumstances and conditions. solutions pass through circumstances and conditions unchanged in themselves and effect change on the environment they pass through.

That means that if you take control of your thoughts, desires and beliefs in order to bring about a consistency and harmony to them, you will be able to create effects rather than be an effect. You can learn to be causal rather than merely effectual. You can learn to be creator instead of mere creature. An imaginaton is a basic wave/particle of mind-a thought; just as a graviton is a basic wave/particle of gravity and a photon is a basic wave/particle of light.

With this view, we are always getting "Grace". From one place or another, unmerited favor. It's not something that god gives to you to save you from hell, but something we give to each other and pull to ourselves. "Law of Attraction"...It works with the Macro and Micro in all things.....When you get that coincidence, that special word when you need it. It's really grace. Just as with New Orleans, the people couldn't count on their government, but could on their neighbor...That was grace given.........Your thoughts pull to you what you desire. As Jesus said, All things are possible if you believe and if you have the belief of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain.

What's your view of Grace??

Nobody like me thread...crybaby

I put some thought into it ya know.......

Someone could at least comment on it.....

Well I haven't read it yet,but I'll reply just for the hell of it.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
Well I haven't read it yet,but I'll reply just for the hell of it.

Very good! There are a lot of things we agree on.

See we are in a since god!!!!..........because we are the creators...

Originally posted by debbiejo
See we are in a since god!!!!..........because we are the creators...

But we are also the destroyers. Good and evil are two aspects of the true nature of all temporal things. Everything around you is in the process of coming into being or fading away. However, there is one thing that does not change. It is kind of like the backdrop on which the universe is projected. This backdrop is the nothingness that is something. It can only be described in terms of contradictions or paradoxes. I call it nothingness because I have no better term. It could be called many things, but regardless of how it is addressed, it cannot be understood from our point of view, so, inherently all descriptions are wrong. It is called the mystic law.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But we are also the destroyers. Good and evil are two aspects of the true nature of all temporal things. Everything around you is in the process of coming into being or fading away. However, there is one thing that does not change. It is kind of like the backdrop on which the universe is projected. This backdrop is the nothingness that is something. It can only be described in terms of contradictions or paradoxes. I call it nothingness because I have no better term. It could be called many things, but regardless of how it is addressed, it cannot be understood from our point of view, so, inherently all descriptions are wrong. It is called the mystic law. I agree we are also the destroyers as well...With creating you can create what ever that desire is...whether positive or negative...If you get enough of the world thinking and drawing in the negative, then the outcome will be just that. Same goes with the positive...Like I said Macro and Micro kinda scales.......and yeah, I believe there will always be paradoxes because we can only view reality from our limited perceptions.............I think people should take a little more responsibility with what they're thinking...

grace >noun 1 elegance of movement. 2 courteous good will: she had the grace to look sheepish. 3 (graces) attractive qualities or behavior: a horrible character with no saving graces. 4 (in Christian belief) the free and unearned favor of God. 5 a person's favor. 6 a period officially allowed for fulfillment of an obligation. 7 a short prayer of thanks said before or after a meal. 8 (His, Her, or Your Grace) used as forms of description or address for a duke, duchess, or archbishop. >verb 1 lend honor to by one's presence. 2 be an attractive presence in or on.

That's a list of possible definitions. But, you can draw your attention to number 4, and that's the one that best fits my view on the word.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I agree we are also the destroyers as well...With creating you can create what ever that desire is...whether positive or negative...If you get enough of the world thinking and drawing in the negative, then the outcome will be just that. Same goes with the positive...Like I said Macro and Micro.......and yeah, I believe there will always be paradoxes because we can only view reality from our limited perceptions.

My Buddhist practice uses chanting as a way of finding clarity. Even if everyone was enlightened to the reality that you mention above, what they actually receive from the universe is filtered by our beliefs. Beliefs can blind us to possibilities that are before us. All myths try to clear the delusions of everyday life for before our eyes. It is the only way to look at something that you cannot understand.

....my first trip to this forum in forever and your first post in this thread was the first thing I read djoe. A welcome and eloquent respite. Thank you.

I don't know enough to intelligently respond to the thoughts within it, but it certainly doesn't seem at odds with much of what I believe.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
(in Christian belief) the free and unearned favor of God. Why with all the scientific evidence would it be only Christian may I ask?
Originally posted by DigiMark007
....my first trip to this forum in forever and your first post in this thread was the first thing I read djoe. A welcome and eloquent respite. Thank you.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Why with all the scientific evidence would it be only Christian may I ask?




My answer to that question might offend you, but I'll answer it any way: possibly because the Christian faith is the only right one. I don't really understand what you mean by scientific evidence. When it comes to faith, it doesn't have to be proven scientifically because it isn't a science. However, I'm positive that it could be, it just isn't necessary.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
My answer to that question might offend you, but I'll answer it any way: possibly because the Christian faith is the only right one. I don't really understand what you mean by scientific evidence. When it comes to faith, it doesn't have to be proven scientifically because it isn't a science. However, I'm positive that it could be, it just isn't necessary.

How do you know that your Christian faith is the right one?

What is the "the right one" mean to you?

If a Muslim believes the he/she is part of "the right one" what does that say about you?

How do you know that the grace you have isn't "the wrong grace"?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How do you know that your Christian faith is the right one?

What is the "the right one" mean to you?

If a Muslim believes the he/she is part of "the right one" what does that say about you?

How do you know that the grace you have isn't "the wrong grace"?

I know because I know. I don't doubt it at all. No part of me doubts it, and no part of me ever will, no matter how many times you try to make me question it. I have FAITH in God and all that He has done for me in amazing! Why would I doubt someone so perfect and loving and holy? The grace of Jesus Christ is the only grace that truly saves. No one comes to the Father except through Him. I don't deserve it, but I have the only right grace. And, I'll never doubt it.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
I know because I know. I don't doubt it at all. No part of me doubts it, and no part of me ever will, no matter how many times you try to make me question it. I have FAITH in God and all that He has done for me in amazing! Why would I doubt someone so perfect and loving and holy? The grace of Jesus Christ is the only grace that truly saves. No one comes to the Father except through Him. I don't deserve it, but I have the only right grace. And, I'll never doubt it.

You can believe that you are a butterfly and you can believe it with amazing faith, but it will not make you a butterfly.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You can believe that you are a butterfly and you can believe it with amazing faith, but it will not make you a butterfly.

Why do you doubt everything and turn it around to make me look like an idiot. It's not like I'm trying to say I'm a butterfly or anything as unbelievable as that. I'm saying that I am a sinner that didn't deserve to be forgiven but that my God loved me enough to send His Son to die for me and take my place. It might seem unbelievable to you, but that's just because it is so amazing. There's a song sung in many churches today that says, "Amazing love, how can it be that my King would die for me? Amazing love, I know it's true. It's my joy to honor you. In all I do, I'll honor You." I'm believing in His Amazing Love with Amazing Faith because it truly is something amazing to believe.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Why do you doubt everything and turn it around to make me look like an idiot. It's not like I'm trying to say I'm a butterfly or anything as unbelievable as that. I'm saying that I am a sinner that didn't deserve to be forgiven but that my God loved me enough to send His Son to die for me and take my place. It might seem unbelievable to you, but that's just because it is so amazing. There's a song sung in many churches today that says, "Amazing love, how can it be that my King would die for me? Amazing love, I know it's true. It's my joy to honor you. In all I do, I'll honor You." I'm believing in His Amazing Love with Amazing Faith because it truly is something amazing to believe.

I am not trying to make you look like an idiot, but you believe in supernatural things that by themselves lead to suffering and hell. All myths have their reason and you are enjoying the benefits of your myth. But you are blind to the judgments you are making on other people, that is why I say anything at all.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am not trying to make you look like an idiot, but you believe in supernatural things that by themselves lead to suffering and hell. All myths have their reason and you are enjoying the benefits of your myth. But you are blind to the judgments you are making on other people, that is why I say anything at all.

The God I believe in does not lead to suffering and hell. In fact, He leads to the exact opposite of that. Not believing in Him and refusing to accept His grace, does lead to those things... which is something I don't like. That's why I say anything at all. It isn't a matter of judgment, it's a matter of truly caring for people and there eternal security and well-being. Heaven doesn't forbid that I care... it's because of God and heaven that I do.

MicahLynn don't you believe you can be a butterfly????
Jesus said you could if you have enough faith....

Gace ......an album by Jeff Buckley

Originally posted by debbiejo
MicahLynn don't you believe you can be a butterfly????
Jesus said you could if you have enough faith....

You know, He did say that if I have the faith of a mustard seed, I could move mountains. That is a metaphor showing that I can do amazing things if I just have faith. The Bible alsto says that through Christ I can do all things. I'm pretty sure He wasn't talking about me becoming a butterfly, that's taking things way out of context. But, trusting Him, I can do awesome things. I can let Him speak through me to you until you finally believe. And, hey, if turning me into a butterfly would make you believe, I'm sure He'd do it.

guess I found heaven, now shakey the directions please

Originally posted by finti
guess I found heaven, now shakey the directions please

Straight down.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
You know, He did say that if I have the faith of a mustard seed, I could move mountains. That is a metaphor showing that I can do amazing things if I just have faith. The Bible alsto says that through Christ I can do all things. I'm pretty sure He wasn't talking about me becoming a butterfly, that's taking things way out of context. But, trusting Him, I can do awesome things. I can let Him speak through me to you until you finally believe. And, hey, if turning me into a butterfly would make you believe, I'm sure He'd do it. Yeah he did say the Mustard seed thing, but how would you explain miracles that happen outside of Christianity?

Originally posted by finti
guess I found heaven, now shakey the directions please

hey, hey, hey there buddy... careful now, there are women on this forum. and, i'm pretty sure we're here because we like to speak.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah he did say the Mustard seed thing, but how would you explain miracles that happen outside of Christianity?

like, what?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
What denomination were you a part of? Was it holiness pentecostal or noninstrumentalist church of Christ or something like one of those? There are many denominations of Christianity that I disagree with on some levels. I don't think they are necessarily wrong or right. I just hate when they say that doing those things will send you to hell, especially since those things are not based on the Bible and the ones that are they take out of context. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in the church, but please realize that not all of them are the same. I believe that every moment of our life should be worship to God, but He delights in us having fun, too. He likes to see us smile and laugh and excited. Worship is a way of life.

About nature, when I look at it, that's when I see and feel God the most. When its just me and God surrounded by His creation, that's usually when He speaks clearest to me, in the whisper of the wind and the rolling of the thunder.

I was raised as a Missionary Baptists but we were also known as Newlight Baptists.

I realize there are good Christians. I was raised in a cult and because of that I had to brake free. But I have discovered that God is in me, and I listen to God in my life through chanting. God only has one commandment for us, that is, we should love one another. There is nothing about what church of what religion, in that commandment.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
like, what? They happen all the time, but one that sticks out was televised. It was in China and they were not christians...They had ultrasound and other devises around a women who had a tumor on her kidney. Now 2 men layed their hands over her, but did not touch her and yet the tumor vanished. Right there on TV...Right before my eyes....ALL GONE.....Now how would you explain that?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was raised as a Missionary Baptists but we were also known as Newlight Baptists.

I realize there are good Christians. I was raised in a cult and because of that I had to brake free. But I have discovered that God is in me, and I listen to God in my life through chanting. God only has one commandment for us, that is, we should love one another. There is nothing about what church of what religion, in that commandment.

Jesus said that loving one another is the greatest commandment, not the only one. It is definitely the most important thing. If you'll read the commandments, all of them will fall back on loving other people and truly caring about them. Killing, stealing, lying, disobeying parents, coveting, committing adultery, all of those things hurt other people and don't show love. For the ones that deal with God, not obeying them hurts Him and doesn't show love to Him.

You are right, God lives in us. When you accept Jesus into your life, the Holy Spirit enters in to guide your life and to sanctify you.

We actually agree on more things than I realized.

Originally posted by debbiejo
They happen all the time, but one that sticks out was televised. It was in China and they were not christians...They had ultrasound and other devises around a women who had a tumor on her kidney. Now 2 men layed their hands over her, but did not touch her and yet the tumor vanished. Right there on TV...Right before my eyes....ALL GONE.....Now how would you explain that?

When did this happen? I'd like to look into it more. Things like that are hard to explain. Sometimes God works through people without them even realizing it. Other times, satan is allowed to do things to deceive people.

How do you explain supernatural and miraculous things like that?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
When did this happen? I'd like to look into it more. Things like that are hard to explain. Sometimes God works through people without them even realizing it. Other times, satan is allowed to do things to deceive people.

How do you explain supernatural and miraculous things like that? I would explain that this is something that is available to everyone...Just as Jesus said if you have faith you can move a mountain. These miracles are in every belief system, not just Christian. They've been done all throughout history as well.....It's the power of intention. Which means that there are unseen forces available to us that we can tap into or manipulate, this is why miracles work in the church also. This is something I think Jesus was trying to tell us, but the church screwed with his message. It's Quantum Wave theories, and it works for everyone, not just Christians. And no it's not of the devil, because first there is no devil, and 2nd, the devil would be everywhere because he would be a Wave Theory...

This was either on the Science or Discovery channel last fall. About 1 year ago.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I would explain that this is something that is available to everyone...Just as Jesus said if you have faith you can move a mountain. These miracles are in every belief system, not just Christian. They've been done all throughout history as well.....It's the power of intention. Which means that there are unseen forces available to us that we can tap into or manipulate, this is why miracles work in the church also. This is something I think Jesus was trying to tell us, but the church screwed with his message. It's Quantum Wave theories, and it works for everyone, not just Christians. And no it's not of the devil, because first there is no devil, and 2nd, the devil would be everywhere because he would be a Wave Theory...

This was either on the Science or Discovery channel last fall. About 1 year ago.

Why are you so against the possiblity of God and satan really existing? You believe in supernatural things, why not them?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
The path of righteousness, which leads to Christ, is the only one that anyone should be on.

Would you fly an airplane into a building if God told you to?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Would you fly an airplane into a building if God told you to?

For one, I don't think He would ever tell anyone to do something like that. That would be suicide, and God hates murder. The only reason I could see this even being a possibility is to show something miraculous. For instance, there are the stories of Daniel in the Lion's Den, David and Goliath, and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego being thrown into the Fiery Furnace. In all of these instances, God required extreme faith, to the point of trusting Him in matters of life and death. They did as He said, and they were saved and His miraculous wonder was shown to all that witnessed the event. Those stories are still used today. So, if I knew God was going to protect me and those involved and use me to show the world His glory, then I guess the answer is yes.

so? actually even better by being here you learn your place then

Sorry to say, I've never learned my place..Where is it????....I thought it was everywhere.........been the cause of many problems... :

This jsut shows how selfish organized reigion is. All the powers- christian, muslim, jewish and suches are all trying to dole out the largest amount of benifits to their followers. Spirituality shouldn't be about benifits: it should be about what you belive in, even if it doesn't involve a diety(ies) or a spiritual word and the like. Why do so many people run to organized religion? Laziness, fear, and the need to feel secure. We can't live our lives fearing the unknown, so we turn to books that claim they have all the answers.

"If a church has a lightning rod, does that show a lack of faith?"

I used to be a christian, but I see that christianity and other religions use their texts and teachings to warp the minds of their followers so that any questioning is deemed sinful. In the Hindu religion, it is said that all religions are like rivers: they all lead to the same ocean. So why do all fear breaking away and becoming individuals?

Profound and cool....

Just so you know, I don't know any true Christians that are lazy in their faith. If anything, Christianity calls for us to do more than most people would think of doing. There are missionaries all over the world, dedicating their entire lives to serving the Lord, feeding the sick, loving the hurting, building churches, and sharing the Gospel. Other than missionaries, there are preachers and teachers and children's ministers (I'll be one of them, as I am majoring in Children's Ministry) and all kinds of people that dedicate their lives to the ministry and spreading of the Gospel. Other important aspects of the Christian life include: accountability and reading the Word and spending time in prayer and fellowship with other believers and helping out in the community. These are just a few of the many things that real Christians do. Maybe you've been deceived by someone who claimed to be a Christian because they were raised in the church, when really they've never taken the time to develop a relationship with Jesus Christ. When people do that, you will see a difference in everything about them. I am currently a waitress while I'm going to college. The other day a man, out of the blue, asked me, "When I looked into your eyes I saw something different, are you a Christian?" That was the biggest compliment I have ever received. I encourage you to seek out REAL Christians, and don't form your opinions based on those that may be confused or misled or even hypocritical.

or at least so christians like to credit themselves with thinking that its actually so...........

Originally posted by finti
or at least so christians like to credit themselves with thinking that its actually so...........

Are you one of those people that just like to argue with people, even when what they said is true?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Just so you know, I don't know any true Christians that are lazy in their faith. If anything, Christianity calls for us to do more than most people would think of doing. Well I know some lazy ones, so are you saying they are not doing Christ's bidding??.....and who are you to say that only Christians do all the wonderful things in the world?........Isn't that kind of arrogant?...I mean really now....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well I know some lazy ones, so are you saying they are not doing Christ's bidding??.....and who are you to say that only Christians do all the wonderful things in the world?........Isn't that kind of arrogant?...I mean really now....

As for lazy Christians, I'm sad that they are that way and make the rest of us look bad. If someone is serious in their Christianity, I don't think it's possible for them to be lazy. You can't look at the world full of dying and hurting unsaved people and not want to get busy doing something, if you are serious in your faith.

And, I never said that only Christians do wonderful things... never. Reread what I wrote, and tell me I said that. I didn't. In fact, I believe that because people do good things, people who aren't Christians, proves that God exists and that He created us in His image. Deep down, we are all good. We just have to dig out all the bad stuff to get there. I've known many non-Christians to do good things, which proves that their is good in them. But, with Christ, that good can be made great. We can do so much more through Him than without Him.

what you said was not true, you like to think it is but it aint. Religious people tend to put themselfs and their work at a higher stage than it really is

Originally posted by MicahLynn
We can do so much more through Him than without Him. Why do you think this way? It's not true.

seems like you missed out on a hell of a lot in life

Originally posted by finti
seems like you missed out on a hell of a lot in life

I am missing out on hell, i know that. thanks for the reminder!

Originally posted by MicahLynn
I am missing out on hell, i know that. thanks for the reminder! But you just don't get it.....There is no such place as hell.

Everyone deserves hell. No one can earn there way to heaven.

God gives grace to his elect people, who without him could not exist.

Originally posted by Backspace
Everyone deserves hell. .

Says who?

Says God in His holy word.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Why do you think this way? It's not true.

Just because you don't believe it's true, doesn't mean it isn't (wow, that was a lot of negatives for one sentence). Anyway, I wish you could know my brother. He wasn't a Christian until two years ago. He lived life like most people do, partying, drinking, experimenting with drugs, sleeping around. One day out of nowhere, he decided to go to church. That day something the preacher said God used to really speak to him. He spoke about Jesus dying for each of us, seeing each of our names and faces and sins while on the cross. He knew the bad things we were going to do, and He still died for us. Something about that changed my brother's life from that moment on. He's always been one of those people that others love and are fond of, the life of the party. But, now he brings real life to them. His whole outlook on life has changed. He is one of the best people I'll ever know. And, he still has fun living and enjoying life as a husband and leader and doing all that he does. I just talked to him today. He sent me money for a trip and talked to me for so long. My big brother told me to make sure I called him before I go to Boston to share the message of the Gospel just so he could pray with me. He told me to be careful for there will be people that try to tear me down. I told him about this forum, and once more he said be careful. I know that is what some of you are trying to do, maybe without even realizing it. But, I won't let it. With Christ, I can have life and have it to the fullest. I know the Truth, and the Truth has set me free, even from doubt and fear. I have nothing to doubt and nothing to fear. I love my life and my family and friends and more than that I love my God. I just want you to see those kinds of changes in people and to realize that they happen because of the Holy Spirit indwelling in our lives, because of Jesus' amazing grace. I just want you to also have life and have it to the fullest.

Originally posted by Backspace
Says God in His holy word. Men manipulated that word for their own purposes.....Jesus wasn't even considered divine until a later council in the 300's AD...and Jesus never said he was god, and he didn't tell people to worship him. And he didn't say HE would throw anyone into hell.........

Grace is given to all people not just some select few.

Originally posted by debbiejo
But you just don't get it.....There is no such place as hell.

You have no proof of that, just as I have no proof other than the Bible that it does. It takes believing in the Bible to believe in hell, which is something you don't believe in I guess. But, don't say there is no such thing for no reason other than you don't want to believe in it. I wish it didn't exist, but it does. Therefore, I'm going to do all I can do to keep people from going there.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Men manipulated that word for their own purposes.....Jesus wasn't even considered divine until a later council in the 300's AD...and Jesus never said he was god, and he didn't tell people to worship him. And he didn't say HE would throw anyone into hell.........

Grace is given to all people not just some select few.
Where did you here that?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Just because you don't believe it's true, doesn't mean it isn't (wow, that was a lot of negatives for one sentence). Anyway, I wish you could know my brother. He wasn't a Christian until two years ago. He lived life like most people do, partying, drinking, experimenting with drugs, sleeping around. One day out of nowhere, he decided to go to church. That day something the preacher said God used to really speak to him. Yeah, well I wish you knew me because I was a Christian ALL my life!....Did many of the same things you talked about. So, don't tell me that once you know Christ it will forever change your life, and you will know PEACE, and you will be soooooooo open to HIS truth, and he will talk to you, and blah blah blah........Cause I get more answers now then I ever did as a Christian, and if you did a little studding, like your history, for one, you'll see the lie for what it is......A MANIPULATION of the church.....Not much truth left once they got done with it.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Men manipulated that word for their own purposes.....Jesus wasn't even considered divine until a later council in the 300's AD...and Jesus never said he was god, and he didn't tell people to worship him. And he didn't say HE would throw anyone into hell.........

Grace is given to all people not just some select few.

Luke 22:66-70 - "At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together and Jesus was led before them. "If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah, well I wish you knew me because I was a Christian ALL my life!....Did many of the same things you talked about. So, don't tell me that once you know Christ it will forever change your life, and you will know PEACE, and you will be soooooooo open to HIS truth, and he will talk to you, and blah blah blah........Cause I get more answers now then I ever did as a Christian, and if you did a little studding, like your history, for one, you'll see the lie for what it is......A MANIPULATION of the church.....Not much truth left once they got done with it.

Did you ever truly walk with Christ? Read His word, spend time in prayer, allow Him to work in your life? It's not a manipulation. What is a manipulation is that you are allowing satan to lead you astray. I know you don't believe in satan, but that is one of his greatest ploys and plots and schemes. He can better lead people astray if they don't even realizing he is doing it. Read "Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis, or "The Ishbane Conspiracy" (don't remember the author)... both are about this type of thing. Both might open your eyes to the fact that maybe you are the one being manipulated and lied to.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Did you ever truly walk with Christ? Read His word, spend time in prayer, allow Him to work in your life? It's not a manipulation. What is a manipulation is that you are allowing satan to lead you astray. I know you don't believe in satan, but that is one of his greatest ploys and plots and schemes. He can better lead people astray if they don't even realizing he is doing it. Read "Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis, or "The Ishbane Conspiracy" (don't remember the author)... both are about this type of thing. Both might open your eyes to the fact that maybe you are the one being manipulated and lied to. I've read the "Screwtape Letters" along with other C.S. Lewis books.....

Now, see how judgmental you are, asking me if I truly walked with Christ, read his word, spend time in prayer.....and OHHHHHHH yes, I learned all about how satan is deceiving me and the rest of the world...Yep, he whispers in my ear all the time, and yep he sends people to tell me all the time to remind me that I'm being deceived by evil demonic spirits, oh no, those are christians telling me that...yep, I have people praying for me too, so that I'll be one with them....God forbid anyone is allowed to think for themselves anymore....And I mean truly think...

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Luke 22:66-70 - "At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together and Jesus was led before them. "If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am." He didn't call himself god...He called himself "The son of Man"...A title....I am also "The daughter of Man."...We all have that spark in us...Jesus didn't say "Believe in me or you're going to hell"..... Hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante's Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory-we know that's not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism.

Debbie Jo, you make me sad. You are such an intelligent girl/woman (I don't know your age), but you are missing the one thing that will truly help you. A high IQ and all kinds of knowledge won't save you. Only Jesus will, and He's the One that you've turned from. That really does make me sad. You seem like such a good person, and the sad thing is, good isn't enough. I am reminded of Galatians 6:9 that says, "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." God hasn't given up on you, and I won't either. I don't know what happened in your life to make you doubt God, but I am sorry it happened (I told Shaky the same thing). I hate that bad things happen to good people and that satan can use times of weakness to distract people and pull them away from the Only One who can truly help.

Originally posted by debbiejo
He didn't call himself god...He called himself "The son of Man"...A title....I am also "The daughter of Man."...We all have that spark in us...Jesus didn't say "Believe in me or you're going to hell"..... Hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante's Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory-we know that's not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism.

I'm actually currently reading a book called "Four Views on Hell." On the aspect of hell, I realized that I had always just believed in the hell of fire and torment and darkness and separation from God because I was never taught that there were other possbilities. I'm still unsure of what I believe, but I'm really looking into a conditional view. I know hell is real, in some form, I just don't know exactly how it will be and all that. So, I'm really giving it some thought and effort to figure out. I do know that because hell is eternal separation from God, I don't want to go there. I can't imagine being separated from God's love and grace, and I don't want to even think about it.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
I'm actually currently reading a book called "Four Views on Hell." On the aspect of hell, I realized that I had always just believed in the hell of fire and torment and darkness and separation from God because I was never taught that there were other possbilities. I'm still unsure of what I believe, but I'm really looking into a conditional view. I know hell is real, in some form, I just don't know exactly how it will be and all that. So, I'm really giving it some thought and effort to figure out. I do know that because hell is eternal separation from God, I don't want to go there. I can't imagine being separated from God's love and grace, and I don't want to even think about it. Did you do a study of it in your concordance and look at the original Hebrew and Greek meaning of it?.......It only means dead....grave...no fire and burning..Sheol...etc...

The Orthodox Jews know there is no fiery hill, and they would know wouldn't they?....Then why can't you believe them....they are expert on the OT language.

Well shaky you see how sad and pitiful I am not to believe as she does...

maybe i should be done with this. you aren't even listening to a word i say. it doesn't even matter to you at all. i can't convince you of something when you have already closed your mind to it and refuse to even listen. i'm not giving up on you though. maybe one day, i'll see you in heaven, shaky and debbie jo, because maybe one day you will finally decide to open your mind to the truth.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
maybe i should be done with this. you aren't even listening to a word i say. it doesn't even matter to you at all. i can't convince you of something when you have already closed your mind to it and refuse to even listen. i'm not giving up on you though. maybe one day, i'll see you in heaven, shaky and debbie jo, because maybe one day you will finally decide to open your mind to the truth. Tell you what....get your concordance and look up all the verses of hell, and then come back here and tell us what it says. The OT and the NT.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
maybe i should be done with this. you aren't even listening to a word i say. it doesn't even matter to you at all. i can't convince you of something when you have already closed your mind to it and refuse to even listen. i'm not giving up on you though. maybe one day, i'll see you in heaven, shaky and debbie jo, because maybe one day you will finally decide to open your mind to the truth.

Do not worry about me, I will be fine. The mystic law is unknowable, so, we need something to know. Religion gives this to us, but grace is grace and there is only one that we all share.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Tell you what....get your concordance and look up all the verses of hell, and then come back here and tell us what it says. The OT and the NT.

why? so you can shoot down everything i say? i just told you i'm reading a book on four views right now. i think that hell is going to be a period of punishment but that eventually the unsaved and evil people of the world will dwindle into nonexistence. i'll give you a list of verses that show this, Old and New Testament verses, if you really want me to.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
why? so you can shoot down everything i say? i just told you i'm reading a book on four views right now. i think that hell is going to be a period of punishment but that eventually the unsaved and evil people of the world will dwindle into nonexistence. i'll give you a list of verses that show this, Old and New Testament verses, if you really want me to. You would rather read a book instead of the actual scriptures???????...........Throw the stupid book away and look at what it really says.......That's all I'm saying....don't listen to other people....do you're own research.

Originally posted by debbiejo
You would rather read a book instead of the actual scriptures???????...........Throw the stupid book away and look at what it really says.......That's all I'm saying....don't listen to other people....do you're own research.

No, don't learn too much. The more you know, the more Satan can deceive you.

And even god said in the OT "Come let us reason together"......Man you'd think knowledge is the root of all evil.

Originally posted by debbiejo
And even god said in the OT "Come let us reason together"......Man you'd think knowledge is the root of all evil.


The OT is as fanciful in spirit as Greek mythology and I prefer greek mythology because no one will try and make me believe it today

Haha in the OT for fun look to see how old people "lived" back then damn near 900 years

Originally posted by debbiejo
You would rather read a book instead of the actual scriptures???????...........Throw the stupid book away and look at what it really says.......That's all I'm saying....don't listen to other people....do you're own research.

actually that's what i'm trying to tell you to do. and, as a writer, i believe that God can speak through people in their writing. it's interesting. you say that like you've never read a book. it's not like the book isn't based on Scripture. each view is a different interpretation of the Scripture. i know what the Bible says about hell, and i'm not sure how it was supposed to all be taken, so i'm doing research. forgive me for trying to understand something that has previously confused me. i'm looking into it because i have previously just believed other people about this topic and now i want to figure out what God really meant.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
actually that's what i'm trying to tell you to do. and, as a writer, i believe that God can speak through people in their writing. it's interesting. you say that like you've never read a book. it's not like the book isn't based on Scripture. each view is a different interpretation of the Scripture. i know what the Bible says about hell, and i'm not sure how it was supposed to all be taken, so i'm doing research. forgive me for trying to understand something that has previously confused me. i'm looking into it because i have previously just believed other people about this topic and now i want to figure out what God really meant. Ok......Well the best way to find out a meaning of the word like "hell" is to see how it was meant. That means you have to go to the original language. This you can find out in your concordance. Then you know and don't have to buy a book with others opinions in it....Then you know.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Ok......Well the best way to find out a meaning of the word like "hell" is to see how it was meant. That means you have to go to the original language. This you can find out in your concordance. Then you know and don't have to buy a book with others opinions in it....Then you know.

how bout i tell once more that i am going to a Bible college, taking all kinds of courses on the hermeneutics of the Scripture and systematic theology and basic Christian beliefs. you tell me this stuff like i don't read the Word every single day. i read it along with other books. i've gone to the original language, i know about the term sheol and all that other stuff. i've just decided to look deeper.

Well if you know about sheol, then you must know it's not a place of burning and torment then...right?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well if you know about sheol, then you must know it's not a place of burning and torment then...right?

for goodness sake, give it a rest. i'm not arguing this topic anymore. i've told you that the subject of hell is one i am trying to figure out more about. i'm not sure what it is all about. it is a controversial subject. i'm done with arguing about it. after all, you don't even believe hell exists. why argue the details when you don't even believe in it vaguely.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well if you know about sheol, then you must know it's not a place of burning and torment then...right?


Yeah Sheol where there is no AC nor heat nor comfortable bed just constant unrest....................or christian helll............................burn hurt burn hurt hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sheol it is folks!


Or Micahlynn this could be considered hell by you

Originally posted by soleran30
Yeah Sheol where there is no AC nor heat nor comfortable bed just constant unrest....................or christian helll............................burn hurt burn hurt hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sheol it is folks!


Or Micahlynn this could be considered hell by you

we are suddenly agreeing on less and less. you all don't even read what i write do you? you pick and choose what you want to hear.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
for goodness sake, give it a rest. i'm not arguing this topic anymore. i've told you that the subject of hell is one i am trying to figure out more about. i'm not sure what it is all about. it is a controversial subject. i'm done with arguing about it. after all, you don't even believe hell exists. why argue the details when you don't even believe in it vaguely. It is not controversial....What don't you understand?.........It's right there in your concordance.....And yes, I did used to believe in hell.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It is not controversial....What don't you understand?.........It's right there in your concordance.....And yes, I did used to believe in hell.

get off the whole concordance thing. i know what one is and how to use it, okay. you used to believe a lot of things, and something went wrong in your life to make you suddenly disbelieve. what happens if you are wrong now? what if you were right then?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
we are suddenly agreeing on less and less. you all don't even read what i write do you? you pick and choose what you want to hear.


Everyone picks and chooses what they want to hear. Thats what really makes religion such a difficult discussion. Its not that people aren't open to your ideas (not you specifically Micah) its more that devout Christians shut off everyone elses ideas because.................................the bible tells them so.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
get off the whole concordance thing. i know what one is and how to use it, okay. you used to believe a lot of things, and something went wrong in your life to make you suddenly disbelieve. what happens if you are wrong now? what if you were right then? Why would assume that something went wrong in my life....Oh, I know, because you think when hardships come along, it is when my faith got weak, and then satan tempted me away.....oh, for shame.......

I just like to read and study....I've always been this way...Kind of a curse....Curiosity kills the cat as my dad would say, but in my case it killed my christian belief.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Why would assume that something went wrong in my life....Oh, I know, because you think when hardships come along, it is when my faith got weak, and then satan tempted me away.....oh, for shame.......

I just like to read and study....I've always been this way...Kind of a curse....Curiosity kills the cat as my dad would say, but in my case it killed my christian belief.

i like to read and study too, which is why i am reading the book "four views on hell" which you keep telling me to quit reading. if you are a fellow reader, why would you condemn me for reading? the more i read, the more i realize how right Christianity is. that's the differnce between me and you.

somehow satan tricked you into believing that he doesn't exist so that he could control you more than you realized. sometimes people let you down, even people who are christians. it is easy to doubt when things aren't going perfectly. if things in your faith were going well, you wouldn't have wanted to look for another faith.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
i like to read and study too, which is why i am reading the book "four views on hell" which you keep telling me to quit reading. if you are a fellow reader, why would you condemn me for reading? the more i read, the more i realize how right Christianity is. that's the differnce between me and you.

somehow satan tricked you into believing that he doesn't exist so that he could control you more than you realized. sometimes people let you down, even people who are christians. it is easy to doubt when things aren't going perfectly. if things in your faith were going well, you wouldn't have wanted to look for another faith. Are you liking trying to torment me on purpose........??........Nothing wrong with reading books, but read something that will make a difference,...Like the root meaning of what was meant!!....Get some purpose out of your reading.....

OK.......you're right I'm a demon.......I truly am, and I was sent to this forum to trick you........Where are my demon hordes to help me.....????......I will send them to your house when you are sleeping tonight.......so beware....It's true, I can certainly do it...you have found me out!!!!!.......Beware tonight!!.....I'm not shittin ya either..

Originally posted by MicahLynn
i like to read and study too, which is why i am reading the book "four views on hell" which you keep telling me to quit reading. if you are a fellow reader, why would you condemn me for reading? the more i read, the more i realize how right Christianity is. that's the differnce between me and you.

somehow satan tricked you into believing that he doesn't exist so that he could control you more than you realized. sometimes people let you down, even people who are christians. it is easy to doubt when things aren't going perfectly. if things in your faith were going well, you wouldn't have wanted to look for another faith.

say, I've got a great idea: Why don't I take you and your family, have men in uniforms come in and take you from your home, shoot a few of you, beat you, haul you naked in a truck and throw some others in a furnace, and then feed you and make you march in the snows of Germany or Poland? Let's say you got to thinking during this: where is God? Well, i can tell you that because of the Holocaust, which I just described, generated the highest amout of people who moved away from faith the Atheism.

So don't give me this crap about looking for a new faith is wrong and doubt is sin: these people's religion didn't step up to save them, but that's not their fault. so please, just try to think of why some people would move away from faith or go to another form of faith.

Originally posted by Neix
say, I've got a great idea: Why don't I take you and your family, have men in uniforms come in and take you from your home, shoot a few of you, beat you, haul you naked in a truck and throw some others in a furnace, and then feed you and make you march in the snows of Germany or Poland? Let's say you got to thinking during this: where is God? Well, i can tell you that because of the Holocaust, which I just described, generated the highest amout of people who moved away from faith the Atheism.

So don't give me this crap about looking for a new faith is wrong and doubt is sin: these people's religion didn't step up to save them, but that's not their fault. so please, just try to think of why some people would move away from faith or go to another form of faith.

have you ever heard of Corrie ten Boom? the holocaust was a horrible experience, and i'm sure that the word horrible doesn't even justify how bad it was. i can't imagine being there. but, not all people denied their faith because of this. Corrie ten Boom is a prime example.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Are you liking trying to torment me on purpose........??........Nothing wrong with reading books, but read something that will make a difference,...Like the root meaning of what was meant!!....Get some purpose out of your reading.....

OK.......you're right I'm a demon.......I truly am, and I was sent to this forum to trick you........Where are my demon hordes to help me.....????......I will send them to your house when you are sleeping tonight.......so beware....It's true, I can certainly do it...you have found me out!!!!!.......Beware tonight!!.....I'm not shittin ya either..

how old are you debbie jo? 12?

Originally posted by MicahLynn
have you ever heard of Corrie ten Boom? the holocaust was a horrible experience, and i'm sure that the word horrible doesn't even justify how bad it was. i can't imagine being there. but, not all people denied their faith because of this. Corrie ten Boom is a prime example.

I honestly doubt that everyone lost their faith to the Holocaust. But in all reality, the point was that there were people who lost faith. So it proves point eloquently.

and Debbiejo is probably not 12. She is very informed and has a lot of knowledge, and I can imagine how frustrated she feels when you blame the devil for her actions. That's just stupid.

Originally posted by Neix
I honestly doubt that everyone lost their faith to the Holocaust. But in all reality, the point was that there were people who lost faith. So it proves point eloquently.

and Debbiejo is probably not 12. She is very informed and has a lot of knowledge, and I can imagine how frustrated she feels when you blame the devil for her actions. That's just stupid.

i know that she's probably not 12. ever heard of sarcasm, neix? she is smart, but sometimes the things she says, such as that she is a demon, aren't the brightest statements in the world. for someone with so much knowledge, you'd think she could come up with something better than that. and, it's the fact that she resorted to pety comebacks and ridicules.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
how old are you debbie jo? 12? I can chose what ever I want to be I'm a demon remember?.......

Originally posted by MicahLynn
i know that she's probably not 12. ever heard of sarcasm, neix? she is smart, but sometimes the things she says, such as that she is a demon, aren't the brightest statements in the world. for someone with so much knowledge, you'd think she could come up with something better than that. and, it's the fact that she resorted to pety comebacks and ridicules.

which is what you did by calling her a 12-year old.....

Originally posted by Neix
which is what you did by calling her a 12-year old.....

yeah, i did, i'll admit it... i like sarcasm though, can't help it... what can i say, i'm human too.

we can't always expect perfection.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
yeah, i did, i'll admit it... i like sarcasm though, can't help it... what can i say, i'm human too.

Don't take it so hard, I think we all knew it was sarcastic. BTW Deb is 9.

Well, I've fallen from grace remember????

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Don't take it so hard, I think we all knew it was sarcastic. BTW Deb is 9.




that was a good one, shaky... you made me laugh out loud, really.

To debbie: stop that. You arn't exactly giving wicca a good image to Micahlynn at the moment, and this is just provoking her, which will turn into a ugly fight. You're not a demon, and you're not going to kill her at night. Micah lynn can sleep without a light and be fine, no horrible demons or anything. Jeez, you guys are so dramatic. Sarcasm is never a good option, as it shows arrogance and stuborness and makes it harder for you to make a good point that will prove something.

Well, I'm off to bed........yawn

My work here is done.........

Originally posted by Neix
To debbie: stop that. You arn't exactly giving wicca a good image to Micahlynn at the moment, and this is just provoking her, which will turn into a ugly fight. You're not a demon, and you're not going to kill her at night. Micah lynn can sleep without a light and be fine, no horrible demons or anything. .

Originally posted by Neix
To debbie: stop that. You arn't exactly giving wicca a good image to Micahlynn at the moment, and this is just provoking her, which will turn into a ugly fight. You're not a demon, and you're not going to kill her at night. Micah lynn can sleep without a light and be fine, no horrible demons or anything. Jeez, you guys are so dramatic. Sarcasm is never a good option, as it shows arrogance and stuborness and makes it harder for you to make a good point that will prove something.

Sarcasm can also be a way of keeping things fun, but intent is everything.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sarcasm can also be a way of keeping things fun, but intent is everything.

true, thank you for bringing me down to earth on this one. I just hate forum fights.

Originally posted by Neix
true, thank you for bringing me down to earth on this one. I just hate forum fights.

I don't like when people fight.

I'm sorry to tell you, but MicahLynn is no longer with us......She expired at 3:05 am... .......j/k

She didn't have enough grace...

Do anyone think grace can be just an excuse for spiritual lazyness ? After all it is an unmerited favor. Our salvation which is achieved by divine grace must be an initiative from God, not ours. Salvation need to be gifted by God, not deserved. What do you people think about that ?

I think MicahLynn really is dead.....She didn't come back......Was it something I said?

Originally posted by debbiejo
I think MicahLynn really is dead.....She didn't come back......Was it something I said?

No, I think it was something you screamed.

Me??? Scream???? ...........She wouldn't answer my "Hell" question, so I sent hell to her house....

Satan Rules!!

Originally posted by debbiejo
Me??? Scream???? ...........She wouldn't answer my "Hell" question, so I sent hell to her house....

Satan Rules!!

You forgot this little guy.