Exar Kun vs NJO Luke and DE Sidious

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w00t2112
while Kun, is superior to them both, can he beat both of them at once?

Darth_Glentract
Kun stands a very good chance. I see Luke going in and fighting Kun with his lightsaber while Sidious stays back and hits Kun with the force. I'd say Kun still managed to take this 70 perceont of the time though.

IKC
Kun, more often than not. If he's smart, and by all accounts he is, he'll blast Sidious before engaging Luke in combat.

tdtd
While Kun is less powerful than DN Luke, I see him equal to or maybe a little more powerful than NJO Luke, maybe. But you add DE Sidious to the mix and Kun gets pwned.

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by tdtd
While Kun is less powerful than DN Luke, I see him equal to or maybe a little more powerful than NJO Luke, maybe. But you add DE Sidious to the mix and Kun gets pwned.

thumb up

The Emperor's power and Luke's omnipresent dumb luck would overwhelm Kun.

tdtd
That's what I just said but with a little more logic.

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
While Kun is less powerful than DN Luke, I see him equal to or maybe a little more powerful than NJO Luke, maybe. But you add DE Sidious to the mix and Kun gets pwned. I am a troll.

tdtd, Glentract is the biggest Luke fanboy I know of. Yet he even states that Kun takes this.

By the way, the DN Luke vs. Exar debate still isn't looking good for Luke. Got any proof of him being stronger than Kun?

Captain REX
He pwns teh insects. no expression

tdtd
Just his unrivaled force abilities. And I guess by your logic polls are illogical fallacies. And the DN Luke vs. Kun thread isn't looking good nor bad for anyone because it's been nothing but fanboyism, yes even by you.

IKC
That's why even by the ridiculous Feat Wars standards he's had each and every one of his abilities mirrored by lesser beings, right?



If you use them as evidence in a debate you commit a logical fallacy. It's called appeal to majority, look it up.



Except not, because not one Luke supporter has told us why he'd win against Kun. The Kun side has proven up.

tdtd
The Kun side has done nothing lol. All you ever do is indulge yourself in Kun fanboyism and feat wars, then repeat your hypocrisy to others, trying to justify why you think Kun is uber leet. Let's get serious here..

IKC
Nothing but provide mountains of proof in the form of scans, other evidence, logic, and reasoning as to why Kun is Luke's superior in all relevant fields pertaining to the fight. Yep. We've done nothing alright. Much like your one-line posts.



Ah yes, being accused of feat wars from a man who supports Luke "zOMG< MANIPULATED A BLACK HOLE, NEVERMIND KYP DID IT TOO!" Skywalker is always priceless.

Got any proof of his superiority other than your raging hardon for Hamill?



Oh, I am serious.

tdtd
Ah the typical fanboy arguments of why "Kun is uber leet". Maybe you should start trying to prove why Kun is superior to these jedi/sith and stop trying to prove why everyone is inferior to him. Oh yea you're right. "The senate most likely had 1 million people because that # is more than 37,000 and it would prove that Kun's feat is more impressive", is a very nice argument.

IKC
You can keep using the word "fanboy" but it's not going to make it true, Goebbels.



Except I already have, and you've provided exactly squat to refute it or prove that the others are any better.



No, the argument goes more like this:

During the PT the Republic had 1 million member worlds and 50 million colony worlds, all of which had representation. Even non-government entities (for example, the Trade Federation) had representation in the Senate. Even if we assume membership/colony numbers to be but a fraction during TSW to the PT numbers, that's still multiple millions of members. One million is a safe low number to assume.

Ergo, because Kun froze said members and then proceeded to pick the chancellor up and use him as a puppet, then effortlessly cleave Vodo in half, Kun's feat is more impressive than Joruus who had only planned to control a fraction of the amount of people Kun froze and who was doing nothing else.

As well, there's nothing to lead us to assume that the number of people Kun froze in the Senate is anywhere near his upper limit. The opposite can be assumed given he performed a variety of tasks apparently effortlessly while holding the members frozen.

QED.

tdtd
Oh really? Are those assumptions logical or fanboyism? And you're right if I call you a fanboy that doesn't necessarily make it true, but you are known as the IKC fanboy on these forums, therefore it does make it true.. There is nothing that says Kun would be able to handle Luke and DE Sidious alone much less NJO Luke.

Darth_Glentract
Glentract is the biggest Luke fanboy I know of.

Wow, thanks for the kick in the groin. Other then ROTJ Luke, how am I a fanboy of him? Does this have to do with him vs. Exar? I've already stated that I haven't stated who I think would win. I don't think Exar is as powerful as you make him out to be, which is why I debate all your points, but that doesn't mean that I don't think Exar would beat DN Luke.

IKC
They are rooted in G-and-C Canon and are plenty logical enough for non-trolls.



Appeal to majority is a logical fallacy. I don't even think it's true in the way you're using it, anyway. That's a double whammy right there.

Nice try, Goebbels.



Lol! Nothing besides the mountains of evidence, logic, and reasoning that others and I have provided, right? Please. Go learn to debate and then come back.

tdtd
As I said before, IKC fails at logic when he talks about his Hero Exar Kun.. There hasn't been an instance where he's given a good reason why Kun would defeat NJO/DN Luke. It doesn't mean it couldn't happen but there's a difference between good reasoning and fanboyism. Btw there's nothing for me to debate because you can't debate with a fanboy.. It's just not possible as you've proven time and time again.

IKC
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow, thanks for the kick in the groin. Other then ROTJ Luke, how am I a fanboy of him? Does this have to do with him vs. Exar? I've already stated that I haven't stated who I think would win. I don't think Exar is as powerful as you make him out to be, which is why I debate all your points, but that doesn't mean that I don't think Exar would beat DN Luke.

I wasn't slamming you by saying that, you know. And you and Fishy are the only ones that actually debate who contest my assertions. Neither of you have proven my assertions incorrect, either.

tdtd
Lol... I've never seen anyone lie to themselves about something as insignificant as star wars..

IKC
Just because you type it out doesn't make it true, Goebbels. Prove up.



Just because you type it out doesn't make it true, Goebbels. Prove up.

I have mountains of logic, evidence, and reasoning. You have... trolling.



And there's a difference between good contributions and trolling.



Just because you type it out doesn't make it true, Goebbels. Prove up.



And I've never seen anyone who has so much time on their hands as to make it their duty to troll in any topic they find a post from a particular member in.

Captain REX
Tdtd, please lay off the flinging about of who is a fanboy and who isn't.

If you can't prove him wrong, just give up. If you can prove him wrong without just calling him a fanboy, show us.

And IKC, don't edit his quotes...

w00t2112
But you gotta admit, Kun looks cooler and more intimitading than Luke of any incarnation :P, although im not too sure on DN Luke vs Exar Kun, i rekon they both stand a 50/50 chance, i mean both have demonstrated unique force powers, and both are the most powerful of their Era..

Illustrious
Originally posted by w00t2112
But you gotta admit, Kun looks cooler and more intimitading than Luke of any incarnation :P, although im not too sure on DN Luke vs Exar Kun, i rekon they both stand a 50/50 chance, i mean both have demonstrated unique force powers, and both are the most powerful of their Era..

I want to know which abilities Luke demonstrated that was unique and never replicated by those of his own era. He's got some unique feats, but everyone has that and arguing that is pointless and fallacious.

Hello Friend
I dunno. Luke as of DE can stop ATAT lasers... Are Kun's blasts so much more powerful?

And DE Sidious can concentrate fleet destroying Force Storms into Force Lightning in seconds... Unless Kun can deflect the Lightning with his saber (which Luke could keep busy) Kun is fried.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Hello Friend
I dunno. Luke as of DE can stop ATAT lasers... Are Kun's blasts so much more powerful?

And DE Sidious can concentrate fleet destroying Force Storms into Force Lightning in seconds... Unless Kun can deflect the Lightning with his saber (which Luke could keep busy) Kun is fried.

I'd say the blasts were considerably more powerful. For one, they ripped clear through a massive creature, lasers are rarely shown to even pierce. For two, it had the power to destroy Sith Spirits, which indicates to me that it attacks more than just a physical level.

Force Storms also are not anywhere near as unique as some people try to put it. Bane casted a force storm before, it's an ability of the Ancient Sith, and it's even listed in the TOTJ companion as an ability that even Jedi can use. In the same sense, could Sidious stop a blast from Kun's amulet?

Hello Friend
He couldn't, but he would be too busy with Luke ATM.

Kun can shoot faster, but with Luke there it gets difficult.

tdtd
Luke's DN feats like manipulating black holes and that green lightning has never been used by anyone else. That doesn't mean that he's stronger than Kun, nor does it mean that's weaker at all.

Darth_Glentract
tdtd, Kyp also controlled a black hole, but Kun would definately kill Kyp.

tdtd
Ok fine the only one I have is Emerald lightning and that's only because I haven't read the books. Luke was the first that we know of, to manipulate black holes. I'm by no means a Luke fanboy but NJO/DN Luke is talked about as having no equal except Ragnos. I do definitely need to read the books though to see what other powers he had.

Darth_Glentract
tdtd, Luke is my favorite character except Corran Horn and maybe Kyp, but I know that many Ancient Sith besides Ragnos, Nadd, and maybe Kun would defeat him. Saying that Luke is any stronger then that is fanboyish.

tdtd
No I don't doubt Ragnos would beat even the most powerful Luke. But without the exception of Ragnos everything else is a maybe.

IKC
No, most of the ancient sith you can bother to name are a definite, as are Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun, the two who carried on their legacy.

Blaxican_Jedi
IKC is an IKC fanboy... he thinks IKC is uber just cause Hes T3h Ch0s3n 1!!!

IKC
I am T3h Ch0s3n 0n3!!111!ONE

zomg, do not underestimate my power!

*14 seconds later*

*wriggles around, limbless* I HATE YOU!!!

tdtd
Definite in what? The true Ancient Sith died with Naga Sadow. The idea of the Sith empire died with Kun. And neither one is a definite against Luke, despite your fanboyism.

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
Definite in what? The true Ancient Sith died with Naga Sadow. The idea of the Sith empire died with Kun. And neither one is a definite against Luke, despite your fanboyism.

Definite to take any known incarnation of Luke.

And didn't you read what Rex said?

tdtd
Definite to take any version of Luke? Fine I won't call that fanboyism, just straight up denial. You can argue what you want with NJO Luke but you didn't show anything with DN Luke except biased opinion speculation and hyperbole. I'll tell you what though since You think Kun is so uber but you KNOW he isn't, let's arm wrestle and if you win then Exar Kun pwns. If not, then it's back to reality of Exar being one of the top 10 in the lower 5.

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
Definite to take any version of Luke? Fine I won't call that fanboyism, just straight up denial. You can argue what you want with NJO Luke but you didn't show anything with DN Luke except biased opinion speculation and hyperbole. I'll tell you what though since You think Kun is so uber but you KNOW he isn't, let's arm wrestle and if you win then Exar Kun pwns. If not, then it's back to reality of Exar being one of the top 10 in the lower 5.

So the truth comes out. You didn't even read the series, did not know that Kyp duplicated Luke's feat, and argue that his "green sparks.. !!!" makes him uber? The Vong aren't force sensitive, a good lightning could kill them, dropping an X-Wing on their ass could kill them, a whole lot of things could kill them.

You arguing elsewise because of "Luke talked about as having no equal except Ragnos" is just silly. Produce the quote of that.

IKC
Prove up. You saying it doesn't make it true.

Point out the "biased opinion speculation" and hyperbole for me, Goebbels.



No, you learn to debate. Until then, your opinion means squat.



According to who? You? Sorry Goebbels, your opinion isn't canon.

Troll someone else.

tdtd
Oh I'm sorry according to you Kun is only below Ragnos cough cough BS. I'm not arguing anything with Luke I'm just saying you exaggerate Kun's power..

IKC
PROVE. UP. Your word is not canon, Goebbels. Lies repeated often enough do not become the truth.



Oh, really?



You were saying?

By the way, if you think I exaggerate Kun's power, then prove it. Repeating the same bullshit often enough doesn't make it true.

tdtd
Yes so let me go back and search all the threads where you stated that there's no proof that Kun is below Ragnos, or Luke, or any of the ancient sith. Why don't YOU post all that information up since you've said it and you know where it's at.

IKC
Please do. I'll be delighted to see things I've never said.

Except for the fact that Kun is above Luke, of course.



Because I already have and you've... failed to provide evidence, logic, or reasoning. All you've added to the discussion is trolling.

Sorry Goebbels, that won't win you any debate.

tdtd
There is no debate here poindexter, you still haven't proven why Kun is greater than everyone...

IKC
Sorry Goebbels. Repeating your lies often enough doesn't make them true.

Try proving up next time.

Blaxican_Jedi
Man I have some good poinst to make, but I havn't read past the JA series so my comments will probably not be vaild, also I think if I do post someones gonna ridicule me and call me a fanboy just cause I support 1 side and not the other...so ill just happily spam the threads.

tdtd
People like IKC enjoy star wars debates. It makes their day complete. Me on the other hand, I call them as I see them. Lightsnake was a Sidous fanboy and IKC is a Kun fanboy. This has been proven already, although the majority opinion is an illogical fallacy according to IKC

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
People like IKC enjoy star wars debates. It makes their day complete. Me on the other hand, I call them as I see them. Lightsnake was a Sidous fanboy and IKC is a Kun fanboy. This has been proven already, although the majority opinion is an illogical fallacy according to IKC

Argumentum ad Populum is a logical fallacy. Look up for yourself here.

I don't care if you think IKC is the biggest fanboy in the world, it's your job to establish why when you call him out on it.

tdtd
Why? Because he downplays everyone's accomplishments while he exaggerates Kun's. When he downplays C'Baoth's accomplishment of controlling an entire armada of ships and the crew, and then saying that the Senate Chamber which Kun froze COULD have 1 million members, just because someone found a feat more impressive than Kun's. It's too easy to point out the fanboyism and the speculation/hyperbole on his part.

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
Why? Because he downplays everyone's accomplishments while he exaggerates Kun's. When he downplays C'Baoth's accomplishment of controlling an entire armada of ships and the crew, and then saying that the Senate Chamber which Kun froze COULD have 1 million members, just because someone found a feat more impressive than Kun's. It's too easy to point out the fanboyism and the speculation/hyperbole on his part.



You were saying?

tdtd
I thought scans were definite, not that crap you spit out? The scan clearly shows there is no way that the chamber can hold a million people. This is YOUR logic not mind, so stick with it.. Thank you come again.

IKC
Actually, the scans show very clearly that the building portrayed is immense, far bigger than any buildings we have on Earth. Ergo, it can hold a million.

That and even if we go with your assumption that it's too small, that is overridden by the later Canon fact that the Republic had 1 million member worlds and 50 million colonies. Ergo, the above argument applies.

tdtd
Lol. You truly are a funny child IKC.. I love you

IKC
Now he acts nonchalant when his one attempt to form a cogent argument (cannibalized from what others have already said) has been shot down.

Nice try Goebbels. Not quite good enough. Troll someone else.

tdtd
Is that a yes or a no fanboy? Did I hurt your feelings?

Darth_Glentract
tdtd, you're just making yourself look worse. IKC is a far more respected member around here then you'll probably ever be. Calling him a fanboy without providing any actual proof doesn't mean anything to anyone.

IKC:

No, the argument goes more like this:

During the PT the Republic had 1 million member worlds and 50 million colony worlds, all of which had representation. Even non-government entities (for example, the Trade Federation) had representation in the Senate. Even if we assume membership/colony numbers to be but a fraction during TSW to the PT numbers, that's still multiple millions of members. One million is a safe low number to assume.

Have you forgotten that not every planet had Senators at Coruscant all of the time? Padme was going there in ep3 for the first time in a very long time. To assume that she is a sole case of this is not a wise thing to do. Also note that very few, if any of those 50 million colony worlds have a seat in the Senate. The colony worlds were represented by the member planets in the same system. Furthermore, if we assume a steady rate of expansion, the republic would have about 775,000 planets during Exar's time. As I stated before, not every planet has a representative in the Senate at all times. Looking at how big the Senate chamber is in ROTS, no way could more then 2 or 3 hundred thousand people fit in it. That's a little under half of how many were around, so not totally unreasonable. Therefor, Exar probably froze around 300,000 people at most. Not at least a million. QED.

Ergo, because Kun froze said members and then proceeded to pick the chancellor up and use him as a puppet, then effortlessly cleave Vodo in half, Kun's feat is more impressive than Joruus who had only planned to control a fraction of the amount of people Kun froze and who was doing nothing else.

As well, there's nothing to lead us to assume that the number of people Kun froze in the Senate is anywhere near his upper limit. The opposite can be assumed given he performed a variety of tasks apparently effortlessly while holding the members frozen.

QED.

Blaxican_Jedi
zomgstfu your not even debating anymore just annoying the rst of us. Your spamming the threads worse than I am just cause of your stupid rivalry.

Darth_Glentract
Whoops, I forgot the rest of your post.

Ergo, because Kun froze said members and then proceeded to pick the chancellor up and use him as a puppet, then effortlessly cleave Vodo in half, Kun's feat is more impressive than Joruus who had only planned to control a fraction of the amount of people Kun froze and who was doing nothing else.

I'm going to have to call you on hyperbole. Exar did not kill Vodo with ease. Vodo got a hit on the back of Exar's hand with his staff, a hit that would have cut Exar's hand if half had Vodo been using a lightsaber.

Joruus, who no one is claiming equal to either Exar or DN Luke, was planning on controlling these people for an extended period of time. It was only when Joruus realized that he was going to have to control support craft for the Chimera AND control them for many days that he released that crew of the Chimera.

As well, there's nothing to lead us to assume that the number of people Kun froze in the Senate is anywhere near his upper limit. The opposite can be assumed given he performed a variety of tasks apparently effortlessly while holding the members frozen.

As well, there's nothing to lead us to assume that the number of people Joruus froze on the Cimera is anywhere near his upper limit. The opposite can be assumed given that he held a casual converation with Grand Admiral Thrawn while controlling the Chimera's Crew, as well as the fact that he was planning on controlling the people onboard the Chimera for an extended period of time. The only reason Joruus released the people on the Chimera was because he realized he was going to have to control them for many days, control tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of people on other ships in combat conditions. Such would be an impossible task even for Exar.

IKC
To assume that most if not all senators were present is a huge fallacy, Glentract.

They were there to put Ulic Qel-Droma on trial after he attacked Coruscant. They believed him to be the true head behind this threat, only Vodo knew that Kun was the master. Ergo, it's safe to assume that most if not all Senators were present.



Nonsense, colony worlds did have representation. Indeed, even non-government entities had representation. To say that the Trade Federation gets delegates but entire planets do not is foolish.



Perhaps member worlds. But colony worlds would be far higher.



But it's foolish to just assume, without proof, that they would not be present for the trial of a man who just attacked the Republic.



Oh please. Did you note how massive that chamber actually was? I could easily just say "looking at it, it must have held X million people."

That's totally subjective. So is what you're saying.



Nonsense, because there's no proof that the members weren't there (indeed, the opposite is proper to assume) and the membership was enormous. 1 million is a safe low number.



Nice job knowing what you're talking about, Glentract...

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/1406/vodostaff0kb.th.jpg

THIS IS TAKEN FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FIGHT. That scan is from Kun's fight with Vodo on Dantooine when Kun was still an apprentice!

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3084/kunvsvodo11th.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3310/kunvsvodo20mk.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4569/kunvsvodo38ja.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7900/kunvsvodo47ob.th.jpg

That is the fight in question. Vodo gets nowhere near Kun, who controls the fight for the duration. Quod erat demonstrandum.



Yes, he was planning on it. And then, apparently when he realized that he couldn't do it, he didn't. So... this means jack shit, then.



True, but Exar's shown feat is on a much more massive scale than Joruus'. As well, since he was shown to do battle rather than merely talk, it appears it was easier for Kun to perform his action than Joruus' to perform his.

And don't claim it to be an impossible task for Kun. Kun's shown a greater use of the power with greater ease than Joruus ever showed us. Ergo, it's not logical to assume that Kun would be unable to perform what Joruus planned.

tdtd
Didn't Kun also use the amulet to cast that sith spell while C'Baoth had nothing?

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
Didn't Kun also use the amulet to cast that sith spell while C'Baoth had nothing?

No, nothing in narration, dialogue, or scans indicates that. Nice try on diminishing him, though.

Even if your attempt to diminish his power were true, it's still something he has.

tdtd
Nobody was dminishing anything IKC, learn to differentiate between a simple question and an attempt to dimish a character's accomplishments.

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
Nobody was dminishing anything IKC, learn to differentiate between a simple question and an attempt to dimish a character's accomplishments.

Yes, because you're only the most innocent, objective person on this forum, Goebbels.

tdtd
Nobody said I wasn't, but thanks for the insignificant assumption.

IKC
Don't mention it. Next time try a more subtle technique, though.

tdtd
No problem will do

Blaxican_Jedi
awww your friends again!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by IKC
To assume that most if not all senators were present is a huge fallacy, Glentract.

They were there to put Ulic Qel-Droma on trial after he attacked Coruscant. They believed him to be the true head behind this threat, only Vodo knew that Kun was the master. Ergo, it's safe to assume that most if not all Senators were present.

Why would all of them have to be there for this? The threat of the Sith wasn't much of a threat to the Republic as a whole. As you stated many times before, the Great Sith War was little more then a few strikes at outpost and a stupid, horribly failed attack on Coruscant.

Originally posted by IKC
Nonsense, colony worlds did have representation. Indeed, even non-government entities had representation. To say that the Trade Federation gets delegates but entire planets do not is foolish.

Name a single colony world that has representation. Just one.

The Trade Federation was only there because they were defending themselves from Amidala's claims. Notice that they are the ONLY non-government corporation we ever see in the Senate. There time there was a special circumstance so that they could defend themselves from the claims against them. It wasn't often that corporations were in the Senate.

Originally posted by IKC
Perhaps member worlds. But colony worlds would be far higher.

Colony Worlds lack a seat in Senate. The number of those does not matter.

Originally posted by IKC
But it's foolish to just assume, without proof, that they would not be present for the trial of a man who just attacked the Republic.

Here is my proof, not everyone could fit in that stadium. It simply was not designed to hold that many people. Oh, and there is that fact that the Great Sith Wars barely even affected the Republic as a whole.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh please. Did you note how massive that chamber actually was? I could easily just say "looking at it, it must have held X million people."

That's totally subjective. So is what you're saying.


Yes, I suppose you could say that. It doesn't make you right. It's far to small to hold that many people. Even the one in ROTS has far less then ten thousand pods. Assume 10 Senators per pod and that's still only a hundred thousand Senators. With things like galactic communication, being in the actual building is often unnecessary.

Originally posted by IKC
Nonsense, because there's no proof that the members weren't there (indeed, the opposite is proper to assume) and the membership was enormous. 1 million is a safe low number.

No, it isn't. There is no way nor reason that a million people would have been in that building.

Originally posted by IKC
Nice job knowing what you're talking about, Glentract...

THIS IS TAKEN FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FIGHT. That scan is from Kun's fight with Vodo on Dantooine when Kun was still an apprentice!

Hm. Okay. I'm just telling you what I heard from Fishy.

Originally posted by IKC
That is the fight in question. Vodo gets nowhere near Kun, who controls the fight for the duration. Quod erat demonstrandum.

When Kun was using a single lightsaber it appeared to me that they vere evenly matched. It was only when Exar brought out his double lightsaber that he got the upper hand.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, he was planning on it. And then, apparently when he realized that he couldn't do it, he didn't. So... this means jack shit, then.

No, it doesn't. You horribly misunderstood what I typed. Joruus was planning on controlling those men all the way to Coruscant. We learned that this would require him to control them for a full five days. It was only when he learned that he would have to control many other ships as well, plus that he would have to control the Chimera and all those other ships for even longer then five days because of the siege of Coruscant that would take place that he backed down. He believed himself capable of controlling those 37,000 men for five days.

Originally posted by IKC
True, but Exar's shown feat is on a much more massive scale than Joruus'. As well, since he was shown to do battle rather than merely talk, it appears it was easier for Kun to perform his action than Joruus' to perform his.

As I said, no one is claiming that Joruus would stand a chance against Kun. The difference is that Exar only controlled them for a few minutes, where Joruus planned to control them for many days. We are talking over a thousand times longer then Exar controlled the Senate.

Originally posted by IKC
And don't claim it to be an impossible task for Kun. Kun's shown a greater use of the power with greater ease than Joruus ever showed us. Ergo, it's not logical to assume that Kun would be unable to perform what Joruus planned.

What is this greater use of mind control that Kun has used? Don't forget that Kun merely had them watching him, but Joruus had all of them doing whatever he wanted and could read all of their minds.

BTW, there is a post over at Edge of Destiny in the Antediluvian thread for you to respond to.

tdtd
That last part I agree with you Glentract. Kun just had the senate watching while C'Baoth had his minions do stuff. Of course Kun would WTFpwn C"Baoth but C'Baoth's feat seems more impressive.

Darth_Glentract
I don't know if I would necessarily call what Joruus did more impressive then what Kun did, but it is on the same level as what Kun did and shows that Kun isn't in a completely different league of his own.

IKC
I've stated it was a few spectacular attacks of terrorism. Actually, Ulic's attack on Coruscant would have succeeded, however, if Aleema had not pulled his forces back and left him out to dry.

They were present because he was on trial by the Senate. There's no reason to assume they were absent, and even less when you see the seats were full.



Lol! Okay, give me a colony world then.



Uh, bullshit. The Trade Federation was there because they have delegates.

And yes, they're the only non-government entity we see in the Senate. And absence of proof is not proof of absence. Ergo, it's a safe assumption to believe that similar entities have representation.

By the way, it's not like Amidala made a grand announcement that she was going to indict the Federation. So how would they know claims would be made against them?



Prove up.



No, that's your subjective observation.

And there is the fact that the Sith War (its real title, stop calling it the Great Sith Wars, etc) pretty much ruined most of the Republic's military shipyards and destroyed a cluster of ten stars. It did affect the Republic quite a bit.

Attacking the seat of government is a call for action. The Senators were present. To claim otherwise begs for proof, and you've provided none.



According to your subjective observation.



Did it hurt when you pulled this number out of your ass?



Yes, it is. Your subjective observation doesn't mean anything. You are required to prove up.



Versus somebody who actually has all the comics. You were dead wrong.



This is something like the fifth Lightsnake argument you've used since you've come back, the "zOMG, EXAR PULLED OUT A TRUMP CARD" bullshit.

Here, something Nai told Lightsnake:



Sorry. Kun controlled and toyed with Vodo the entire time. Then, when it was clear Vodo wouldn't join, Kun busts through his staff with one side of his saber.



No, it appears I understood it perfectly well.

If he believed himself capable, why didn't he do it? Hm? I love how you're not mentioning that he's a freaking madman and his judgment is far from the best.



Except Exar controlled many times as many beings and did so with so little effort that he was able to walk around, use the Chancellor as a puppet, and do battle.

And just because Joruus planned to do it doesn't mean he could or did do it. Ergo, that point means precisely dick.



They are "forced to watch and not react." That does seem to be mind control, no? Just because he didn't have them dancing or performing cabaret doesn't mean he couldn't - the ease with which he held them indicates otherwise.

tdtd
So wait you're saying because Kun didn't control the senate and make them do things, it doesn't mean that he can't right? So by that logic I can say just because we've never seen Luke do something like use blasts, doesn't mean that he can't right? If you're going to go by the whole "doesn't mean he can't" logic, try doing it for everybody, not just your hero.

IKC
Actually, what this means is, in other words, "absence of proof is not proof of absence."

Ergo, because we have something to go on here (his feat), and there's plenty to suggest he was capable of far more (the ease with which he performed it), then it is safe to assume that he'd be able to do more.

The absence of proof (that he didn't do it) is not proof of absence.

tdtd
Once again, your argument of "Just be cause he didn't do it doesn't mean he can". I can say the same crap about Luke who could create ships through the force or manipulate black holes. Just because we never see him use a force storm or some technique doesn't mean he can't. So again if you're going to use that argument you have to use it for everybody that it could apply to.

IKC
You're missing the point, the people I talk about at least have a premise to go on: in other words, they are shown to have had probable access to the information. To claim that Luke knows Force Storm is ludicrous, however: for one, it is a Dark Side attack, and secondly it is a Sith technique that Palpatine certainly didn't teach him.

However, the Storm is described as a weapon of the Ancient Sith. So, since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that people like Naga Sadow or Marka Ragnos may know how to do it.

tdtd
Ok I get that so what is your logic with what you just said about Kun. Just because he didn't manipulate the senate doesn't mean he couldn't do it. There's no way to prove he could do it, there's no way to prove Luke could use force powers that weren't stated in his books.. I understand what you're saying but it's very faulty logic to use with any SW character.

IKC
Well, he did manipulate the Senate. That, combined with the apparent ease with which he performed it, is my premise behind saying that he could have done other things and just because he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.



No, it's not proof but it is certainly a valid assumption. Assumptions in and of themselves aren't bad, you just have to base them in logic, evidence, etc.

tdtd
Well I can't use the Luke example because they both have different powers and feats, but Luke was also shown to do his thing with relative ease. I suppose it could be an assumption but that's as far as it would go. But what exactly downplays C'Baoth's feat?

IKC
What was he shown to do with ease?



Well, it's not really a feat. The long and short of it is, Joruus (a madman) thought he was capable of controlling roughly 37,000 people for five days. But then he decided not to.

So he really didn't... do anything. That and when you consider his madness + megalomania, doesn't speak much for Joruus.

tdtd
Hey IKC take a look at http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanon2.html..
Good read

IKC
Eh, that site isn't all that great.

http://www.stardestroyer.net

Darth_Glentract
I'll get to the larger post when I get the chance. I'm going to bed soon and will be gone until friday probaly.

Originally posted by IKC
You're missing the point, the people I talk about at least have a premise to go on: in other words, they are shown to have had probable access to the information. To claim that Luke knows Force Storm is ludicrous, however: for one, it is a Dark Side attack, and secondly it is a Sith technique that Palpatine certainly didn't teach him.

1. Luke has been shown to use the Darkside. Oh, that's right, you didn't know about the Unifying Force concept because you don't know jack about the NJO.

2. There are other ways that he could have learned this technique. He has access to great amounts of knowledge from places such as Ossus and holocrons that he got from time to time. Luke also had access to the Emperor's storehouse on Wayland for a time, I don't know if he got anything out of there though, but it's possible. And how do you know Palaptine didn't teach it to him. He appears to have learned some things from Palpatine during DE and since lack of proof isn't proof of absence, Luke might just know it. I'm not saying he does, but it's possible.

Originally posted by IKC
However, the Storm is described as a weapon of the Ancient Sith. So, since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that people like Naga Sadow or Marka Ragnos may know how to do it.

That's flawed logic. It's a major oversimplification. By the same logic I could say that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho because Shii Cho is described as being known by the Jedi. Since absence of proof is not proof of absence, it's safe to assume that ROTJ Luke knows Shii Cho.

I could also say that all Jedi can make a lightsaber, because making a lightsaber is something that Jedi can do. Just because some Jedi can make a lightsaber is not proof that all Jedi can make lightsabers. The same is true Exar Kun. Just because Exar could freeze them doesn't mean that he could have made them do more complicated things as well. Proof is required for that and such proof has not been shown.

Bad logic, IKC.

Saying Joruus was insane while controlling the Chimera is a double edged sword.If we assume that Joruus was insane while controlling the people on the Chimera, the fact that Joruus was able to focus to the level needed to control 37,000 people while insane speaks a lot for him. If he wasn't insane at the time, which is perfectly possible since his insanity came and went from time to time, then it is perfectly possible that a sane Jedi Master really believed he could control 37,000 people for five days. Either way it doesn't help you.

tdtd
That is also a very good point Glentract, forgot about all that, especially the unifying force concept.

IKC
And here you were going on at DTF about how Luke is moving away from that concept by DN. And then there's the question: How advanced are his dark side techniques? Who did he learn them from? Etc.



Uh, dude. For one, Ossus is a Jedi stronghold. It's not going to have knowledge of advanced techniques of the Sith. Secondly, when did Luke ever get a Sith holocron?

The Emperor's storehouse on Wayland wasn't said to carry knowledge on Force techniques. Indeed, as I remember all it had was Joruus, the Spaarti cloning cylinders, and various datachips (one of which was The Hand of Thrawn).

And I can assume that Luke doesn't know the Force Storm because he could merely have tried to summon one against Palpatine by the end of DE. What, specifically, did he learn from Palpatine, hm? I'm not sure Palpatine did much teaching. He certainly didn't seem to bother teaching Anakin anything.



Except ROTJ Luke could hardly be called a Jedi, and it would be more accurate to say that Jedi of the PT and before knew Shii Cho. Ergo, Luke wouldn't apply.

It's not an oversimplification, the force storm was described as being derived from the Sith of old. Ergo, it is not an oversimplified assumption to say that the strongest of that era know the technique, because absence of proof is not proof of absence.



You should be more accurate and say that Jedi who are taught how to make a lightsaber and have access to the proper material can make a lightsaber. Your examples are oversimplified, the concept of absence of proof is not proof of absence isn't.



Been reading much?



QED.

Fishy
I wouldn't really call manipulating and freezing the same, the only thing he manipulated or really controlled was the chancelor the rest he just froze.

IKC
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1522/kunspell7lf.th.jpg

I disagree completely. Read the narration there; it reads they are forced to watch and not react. It doesn't read that their muscles are frozen or anything. That indicates he can control their actions, to me.

tdtd
It still makes no sense, if he could actually control all of them to do something then he would have. But then again if you're using your logic that there were 1 million people there, nobody is strong enough to control that many minds, not with all the amulets..

IKC
Why would he? It's clear from his actions in the Senate (and his speech) that he doesn't care what they do, that they're irrelevant to his plans.



That's not necessarily accurate. It's entirely possible for him to do so, given we have instances with other Sith Lords doing similarly complicated things (i.e. Sadow's tangible illusion armies).

And again, the amulet is never shown to have anything to do with his actions.

tdtd
How does Sadow control millions of people by creating illusions? I'm afraid I don't understand that.

Fishy
He doesn't control them what Sadow does is far more impressive, he creates them.

About them, forced to watch and being frozen are the same thing. You are frozen you are forced to stand there and watch unable to move. And in order to control the chancelor he has to move there and he puts his hand on the chancelor his head. I see no real reason to assume he controlled them when he has shown nothing of that sort, he froze them. Still impressive but very different.

IKC
He's controlling an obscene amount of illusory drop ships and troops that are able to attack the Jedi and Republic forces. It's similarly complicated to the Senate example.

Fishy
How the hell is that similary complicated?

He had to create them, make them fight control each of there movements they are illusions so real that they are able to destroy buildings and kill people. They are shot down and killed when hit, thats far more difficult then to stop people from moving and then there is the difference Sadow created a huge ass fleet, Exar froze a couple of dozens of thousands of people... Huge difference there too.

IKC
Uh, Fishy, they're similarly complicated inasmuch as each Dark Lord was controlling thousands upon thousands (or, rather, millions) of different entities at once. I didn't think this was a difficult concept.

tdtd
I don't know if they're the same, if Sadow creates actual ships or even illusions that attack the republic, that's a far more impressive Feat than Kun's. DN Luke was also know to create ships from the force, very similiar to what Sadow did.

IKC
No, Luke's was one ship. Sadow's was thousands upon thousands: it was said that 90% of his attacking force (including ground troops) were illusions.

And Kun's is similarly impressive because he had to overcome the free will of all those beings and hold them in place.

tdtd
The free will of non sensitive's? It's impressive but how is that anything compared to what Sadow or Luke did?

Fishy
Originally posted by IKC
Uh, Fishy, they're similarly complicated inasmuch as each Dark Lord was controlling thousands upon thousands (or, rather, millions) of different entities at once. I didn't think this was a difficult concept.

Only real difference is Exar froze them, there is no real evidence to suggest he controlled them in any way. Forced them to watch, he would have forced them to watch if they were frozen. And he had to walk up to the chancelor and place his hand on him to make him say anything.

Exar didn't create them and there weren't millions of them

Exar didn't constantly need to spend meditating and changing everything to make sure it seemed real.

Exar Kun used a spell that could have possibly just been cast and then let alone to work for a period of time.

Sadow went into deep meditation when he used his meditation to create entire army's so realistic that people actually thought they were real and actually fought them and died against them. There is absolutely no reason to assume that what Kun did can ever even compare.

To create army's with an illusion is going to be far harder, and there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that freezing people is just as hard and requires just as much skill.

tdtd
Agreed, btw I didn't know Luke did it with 1 ship but it is logical to assume that if he can do it with 1 ship he can do it with many more. He wasn't at war so he didn't need an army.

IKC
Going to insinuate that they're not as hard to freeze when there's no evidence for it?



Uh, no evidence except for the omniscient narrator stating that he forced them to watch and not react, right? That's control, Fishy.

And he had to walk up to him? Bullshit. Prove that. You have no proof that he could not merely have forced the Chancellor to say anything from further away - Kun's penchant for the theatric doesn't mean he couldn't have accomplished his goal any other way.



But he did control them and 1 million is a safe low number.



Indeed, he performed his feat with relative ease. That's probably because creating tangible illusions is more difficult, I'll grant. But they are comparable inasmuch as their complexity is concerned.



Except you have no proof of that and it runs contrary to our ideas of how the Force works - that is, the person using it has to maintain the power for it to continue. You didn't see Sidious, for example, toss a bolt of lightning and then just sit back and watch it hit someone.



But inasmuch as Kun had to control the will of at least one million sentients and he did so without much apparent strain. They are similar in complexity, not difficulty.



You can't automatically assume that, you need a premise to go on. If we knew that Luke did that effortlessly then yes, we can assume he could do more at the same time. However, neither of us knows what kind of strain it put on him.

tdtd
How can you say Kun did it with relative ease? That's pure speculation. That's a lot different than saying that if Luke did 1 ship he can do many, which is more logical. And for the last time bro, 1 million is not even a realistic #, Glentract proved that. Btw, controlling non sensitives is absolutely amateur for a force user.. You should know that.

w00t2112
lol, im going to stop putting Kun in anymore threads..lol, tdtd you seem to be arguing pointlessly, you haven't proven why luke is stronger than Kun, you seem to have proven that Luke has accomplished more feats, which isnt much of an argument.

IKC
No it isn't. It's a logical deduction based on scan evidence: Kun walks about, holds conversations, uses the Chancellor as a puppet, and strikes down Vodo. Obviously, he isn't struggling to maintain the spell. Indeed, it seems to be very easy for him.



No, it isn't, because you don't know the context under which he performed the feat; whether he just barely accomplished it or not.



Really? Because I asked for his proof and got a whole lot of nothing. 1 million is a safe low number.



Wrong, controlling the weak minded is. And then, a large number of weak minded would be a completely different trick. The fact that Exar Kun was able to control such a large number of varying races, not all of whom were "weak-minded," is a testament to his power. I don't see why you keep trying to degrade it.

Fishy
If you are frozen you are forced t watch as well. You can't close your eyes you can't look the other way you can't move... Thats being forced to watch, but its not really controlling them.



actually its up to you to prove this. Seeing as we know Kun walked up to the chancelor and placed his hand on him. If you believe otherwise, you need to give a reason for that.



Haven't we been over this already? The stadium could never have held a million people.



I don't really see how... I mean I agree that its far more difficult to do, thats my entire point really. But its also more complex because you have to create millions of things that constantly change and adopt to whats going on around them, on several planets against god knows how many enemy's. That in its nature is more complex then freezing people.



Different uses of the force.. But lets look at another part where people freeze, Kotor. I know gameplay and all, but not all of it is gameplay. Juhani for instance froze the two people that went with Revan and then started to fight, Malak froze people.. This isn't at the same scale lets make that clear first. However it is possibly the same technique in which Malak or Juhani freeze somebody then they can do stuff, eventually the person just awakens from the status. It is possible that Kun used a similair technique on a much larger scale, likely actually if you ask me.

Still no real evidence for that, and it doesn't really matter anyways. Doing it and controlling it, is probably very hard to do.



I really don't see how its just as complex honestly... Especially because there is no real evidence he was controlling them.

IKC
And if you are controlled you can be "forced to watch and not react." Ergo, Kun was controlling them.



No, Fishy, the onus is on you to prove the positive (that he did need to walk up to him) rather than me to prove the negative (that he didn't need to walk up to him).

Good luck with that...



According to your subjective observation? That's not permissible debating material.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8052/sylvarnoconsequence2mj.th.jpg

Note how absolutely immense the Chancellor's podium is. Also note the lack of empty seats. That building can easily house over a million.



No, because once created both of them were controlling a similar number of entities. By the sheer numbers one would think a single mind would never be able to control them, but they did.



Different uses of the Force that operate under the same principle. There's nothing to suggest that Malak or Juhani just used the power and let it sit. Indeed, it's more likely that both had to maintain their hold over the subjects in question.



But Exar Kun did it with apparent ease. Hence his immense power.



Except for what the omniscient narrator states, right?

Fishy
Originally posted by IKC
And if you are controlled you can be "forced to watch and not react." Ergo, Kun was controlling them.

What kind of logic is this?

If you are frozen you can't move and you are forced to watch. Ergo Exar froze them.

Exact the same thing, does it prove anything? No. So then we have to look at what is more likely.

Does he make them do anything but stand still what freezing can also do? No.

Would it be logical to control thousands of beings when freezing them is just as effective for the desired effect? No.

Most logical conclusion they were frozen, what the narrator says can be seen in several ways and it proves nothing.



What kind of bullshit is that? You are the one disagreeing with what is seen, we see him walk up to the chancelor and we see him use his hand to control the Chancelor. Then you claim he didn't need to and its up to me to prove that he did when all the evidence shows that he did? Great...



Not just mine, again we had this debate already. But the stadium from simply looking at it could not have housed a million beings, in other scans we see some seats are empty so the senate chambers wasn't even filled yet. If we compare the Stadium to other stadiums build on earth that only house 50.000 people we can see that the Size difference isn't huge. Definitly not big enough to house 20x as many people, and thats excluding guards. If we would include guards the stadium would need to be 60x as big, it simply isn't.



Have you ever been to a practically filled stadium, stood at the bottom and then looked up to the top. It looks enormous even if it can only house 50.000 people.



Still there is no prove that he controlled them or that there were actually a million people there.



Could be, Juhani did drop her status spell when she was beaten. But that could also because the effect worked out, although its more likely the first.


Never argued otherwise.




He doesn't even mention control, just forces them to watch. In which case freezing and controlling would do the same thing.

IKC
And you've decided to see it as pure freezing while I, taking cues from their being forced to watch and not react, see it as controlling.



What kind of bullshit is it? It's called debating, Fishy. You cannot ask me to prove a negative (that Kun didn't (negative) need to walk up to the Chancellor). Ergo, the onus is on you to prove the positive. Nothing in the dialogue, narration, or panels states that Kun needed to walk up to him to control his mind and use him as a puppet.

Ergo, you cannot prove the positive.



Okay, you and Glentract. Stellar team, there.

Sorry, your subjective observation is not rock-solid fact. Look at the chancellor's podium again. Kun is standing right next to it and our perspective is level with him. He looks like a fly and the Chancellor's podium isn't even very big in comparison to the rest of the building!

By the way, show me some empty seats. To claim that they're empty because the artist failed to draw squiggle lines is laughable. The place was a full house.

1 million is a safe low number.



Given what we know about the Force, it is proper to assume the former.



Except it couldn't have been freezing, unless you mean to tell me that Kun was already the focus of their attention before he walked in the door. Obviously he made them move their eyes (and heads) because in a building that immense, they would have missed parts or all of the action.

There you have it. Control.

Fishy
Originally posted by IKC
And you've decided to see it as pure freezing while I, taking cues from their being forced to watch and not react, see it as controlling.

When you are unable to move you are also being forced to stand still and watch.



He didn't control the chancelor before he walked up to him and put his hand on him, the chancelor didn't say a word didn't even move. Then Kun stands there and the chancelor does. Ergo Kun needed to be there. You claiming otherwise requires prove, because the on panel evidence suggests that he did indeed need to be there, like shown.



Comics are offline, so I can't show you pictures right now, but just look at the picture that shows the entire senate room, see how tiny that is. Go to google look up a picture from a filled stadium taken from the top, see how tiny the people are? They are somewhat comparable, the senate chambers might be bigger, but to say its at least 20x as big as a reasonably sized stadium is ridiculious saying its 60x as big (which it would be to have a million senators + guards) is even more so.



Just like its laughable to claim that Luke doesn't suck with a lightsaber because technology sucks, point is there are parts where we can see the seats... Meaning parts of it were empty.



I disagree, there is no way that place could have housed a million people let alone stand a million senators plus guards.



Agreed.



Really is that so? Most of the senators would have already been looking at the podium where the chancelor and Ulic were, so thats not much of a problem, seeing as you also have no evidence to even suggest Kun made them move, we can't allow this assumption to prove another assumption.



Or freezing.

IKC
No, nonsense. The narration says the entire chamber is forced to watch and not react, ergo whichever Senators were looking off, picking their nose, or whatever were forced to turn their heads to Kun and the actions he performed; among them fighting Vodo, which obviously meant they moved quite a bit. Ergo, Kun had to have controlled them in order to force them to move their heads and eyes to watch his actions.

Kun controlled them and forced them to watch. QED.



He didn't control the chancellor before he walked up to him, correct. What is also correct is absence of proof is not proof of absence, Fishy. It is your assumption that Kun needed to be near him and grab the back of his head to control him. Assumptions are not proof. You have not proved that he needed to grab the Chancellor in order to control him.

Prove the positive or drop the point.



Uh, my scans work. Take a look at the one I posted previously, and look at the Chancellor's podium again. In that scan, we get a ground-level view of it. It's enormous. It might be as big around as the Washington Monument. The thing is immense. The entire building is immense.

Here's a bird's-eye view of it:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5863/senateoutside9wf.th.jpg

That building is easily many times the size of anything we have built on Earth. That combined with the fact that Star Wars technology far surpasses our own, and you have a building that can hold at least a million beings.



Actually, you can't see the seats. I'm looking at it right now: for one, the seats in the Senate hall appear to be benches. Secondly, in every panel that has a reasonably close shot of the seats, they're filled to the brim, even in sections that were "empty" in the larger panel showing most of the inside. Ergo, the meaningless detail that the penciler didn't fill in does not indicate a lack of senators: every other panel shows that the seats were full.



Except it did. Scans and logical deduction from PT canon contradict your subjective observation.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
No, nonsense. The narration says the entire chamber is forced to watch and not react, ergo whichever Senators were looking off, picking their nose, or whatever were forced to turn their heads to Kun and the actions he performed; among them fighting Vodo, which obviously meant they moved quite a bit. Ergo, Kun had to have controlled them in order to force them to move their heads and eyes to watch his actions.

Kun controlled them and forced them to watch. QED.


Oh come on. Being "forced to watch" doesn't mean Kun made them turn their heads to focus on a certain event and he did that during the entirety of his movements in the senate chamber. If they were "forced to watch" they were simply put into a status where they weren't able to participate in the events meaning that they were frozen and nothing else.



No IKC. It's your assumption that Kun didn't have to be close to the Chancelor to control him. In fact he put his amulet on the Chancelor, then you can see the amulet working and only after that the Chancelor says what Kun dictates. So the assumption is that Kun could have done that without being close to the Chancellor where the evidence shown in the source speaks against it and not the other way around.



You should follow that advice yourself since you can't prove that Kun could have controlled the Chancellor while being far away from him.



Now...what does the number of Senators have to do with the entire discussion ? Kun did use some Sith magic spell to do what he did and we don't exactly now if it needs preparation time, if yes how much time it needs and if it can be used against powerful force users like NJO Luke or DE Sidious.
As it seems it might be quite hard for Kun to deal with NJO Luke or DE Sidious alone. Combined I guess they are too much for him especially when you keep in mind that NJO Luke had already confronted Exar Kuns spirit and it's even said that Luke in that time (Jedi Knight trilogy) could have blocked the attack of Exar Kun's spirit (I guess that's why Kun never attacked Luke). The same spirit that toasted one of Luke's students and force choked the entirety of them at once.

Now even if the real Kun is exceptionally more powerful than his own spirit. The same goes for NJO Luke compared to the Luke that is descriped in the Jedi Academy trilogy. Add Sidious with his force storms and Kun will most likely go down in this fight.

tdtd
I agree with that statement completely. And W00t, you need to look up the definition of argument in the dictionary because nobobdy was arguing anything. I was asking IKC how he could use his logic for 1 feat but not for the other. And yes I will keep arguing when besides IKC, some of you unueducated fans make Exar Kun look like a Force God. That's a laugh right there. I'm not denying Kun I know he was one of the MOST powerful Force Users ever but stop exaggerating his powers and downplaying others..

IKC
Reading comprehension is your friend. I repeat:





No, Nai, it is your assumption that despite the lack of evidence to this point, Kun needed to be close to the Chancellor to control him. My argument (that he didn't) does not speak against the scans because there is nothing in the scans to suggest that he needed to be near him.

So prove the positive, don't ask me to prove the negative.



I know English is not your first language, so I'll make it clearer:

This is asking me to prove a negative (that Kun didn't (NEGATIVE) need to be near the Chancellor).

That is a fallacy. The onus is on the opposition to prove the positive (that Kun needed to be near the Chancellor).



Except no apparent time was necessary and we know that Sith magics are incredibly advanced Dark Side techniques. We cannot just assume that he needed time when there's no evidence to the fact.

The fact that he was able to do it with such ease indicates that it was not a great strain on him - because of that, it's proper to assume that the multitude he controlled is not his upper limit.



Except Kun's spirit was both weakened and half-mad from 4000 years of isolation, and Kun's spirit ripped Luke's from his body by controlling Kyp Durron.

DE Sidious, as I've shown in earlier threads (Exar and Ulic vs. Sidious and Dooku) is in no way comparable to Kun. He can and will go down hard, either to an amulet blast or other such Force attack or to Kun's superior dueling skills.

Luke won't be anything different, but he'll at least last longer.

Fishy
IKC you are somebody who's making an assumption by saying that he didn't need too. When everything shows that he does need too. You need to prove that he doesn't, because that goes against what is shown in the comics.

We never see Vader destroying a planet with the force, but then again nothing ever says that he couldn't. So he can.

We never see Aleema blow up a star without Sadow his ship, but nothing says she couldn't so she can?

You need to prove up.

IKC
Wrong, nothing shows that he needs to, Fishy! Just because he did X doesn't mean he can't do Y, because absence of proof is not proof of absence!

The onus is on you to prove the positive, not me to prove the negative. Learn to debate.

Fishy
Dude...

Did you ever see Revan destroying a star? Absence of proof is not proof of absence so he can.

Did we see Aleema destroying a star without a ship? No, but absence of proof is not proof of absence so she can.

Did we ever see a japanese samurai kill ten million people with his barehands in an hour? No, but absence of proof is not proof of absence so he can.

Thats your logic here... Its not a logical assumption to make that he can do it. A logical assumption would be that he could have blasted the chancelor away with his amulet, and that wouldn't really require prove. However this an assumption with nothing in favour of it, nothing to suggest its true, absolutely nothing. You need to prove up.

IKC
Do you have a premise to go on with this? What's that? No?



Do you have a premise to go on with this? What's that? No?



Do you have a premise to go on with this? What's that? No?



It is a logical assumption to make given that he performed the action and distance was not mentioned in dialogue, narration, nor anywhere else in the scans as a prerequisite for said action. Ergo, unless you have proof to the positive (that he needed to be close) then it is reasonable to assume that he could have performed the action regardless of reasonable distances.

Asking me to prove a negative is a fallacy. Prove the positive or drop the point.

Fishy
And do you have a logical reason to assume he could, when the control argument you made is wrong. Dude you love Exar I can understand that, but you are just not using logic right now. You are ignoring the fact that we see on screen on panel evidence that he goes there and then manipulates the Chancelor with his hand on the Chancelor his head and the amulet seems to be doing some of the work. Thats what we know.

You are assuming that he can do it without, without on screen evidence, without the narrator saying anything of that matter. Without any reason for it, prove up. That is your job now. Its not your job to prove that Revan can't blow up stars, you would never succeed if I claim he can. It would be my job to prove up that he could.

And proving a negative or a possitive can easily be changed by just changed are to aren't or is to isn't. Prove up or admit to the fact that he couldn't, when there is no reasom to assume that he could.

tdtd
True

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
I know English is not your first language, so I'll make it clearer:

This is asking me to prove a negative (that Kun didn't (NEGATIVE) need to be near the Chancellor).

That is a fallacy. The onus is on the opposition to prove the positive (that Kun needed to be near the Chancellor).


Do you want to piss me off IKC ?
I'm asking you to prove a positive. I asked you to provide proof that Exar could have done the manipulation from a far distance. And you can't do this because their is nothing indicating that Kun can do it from a greater distance so this is your assumption and you have no proof for it.
In fact you are asking us to proof a negative because you demand proof for Kun not being able to control the Chancellor from a far distance when there is nothing indicating that he could have done it. And please stop questioning my reading comprehension or English skills to cover up your own mistakes.



It's nice what you know. I wonder why Kun keeps covering on Ossus or why he even gets attacked if all he has to do was snapping his fingers to freeze any opposition. What we know is, that Sith magic was a ritualized form of Dark Side use - ever seen "blink-of-an-eye-rituals" going on somewhere ? Because I didn't...



Anderson tells us that Luke could have withstand the attack from Kun alone even at this point. And yes...Kun was a half-mad and 4000 year old spirit but still far away from being helpless.



The point is that this is Kun vs DE Sidious and NJO Luke at once. Can Luke keep Kun busy until Sidious can unleash a force storm ? Possibly. Can Kun take out force users of that calibre with blasts from his amulets ? This can be argued. You can look at it like you want but this would surely be no easy thing for Kun that will be over in the matter of seconds.

tdtd
agreed, good points.

Veneficus
Hey Nai haven't seen you in awhile.

IKC
I'm not using logic? Look in the mirror.

Yes, my control argument is wrong. Nevermind your lack of proof, it's just wrong! All the senators were already looking at what Kun wanted them to look at! By God, you have a bug up your ass to make Kun appear not as uber as he really is!

The amulet doesn't "seem" to be doing anything but glowing. You've failed to prove that Exar Kun needed to walk up to the Chancellor to control him - indeed, the opposite is true given how he was able to manipulate all the other Senate members and that there's nothing to indicate that he was otherwise unable to control the Chancellor anywhere in the scans.



Uh, Fishy, because the narrator says jack shit, that means we can assume the possiblity that Kun would be able to perform the action without walking up to him. This is a situation much like Sadow's meditation sphere: you cannot prove that he needed the sphere to perform his action just as you can't prove that Kun needed to walk up there to perform his. There is nothing to indicate that.



No, quibbling in semantics isn't the way you turn a debate around. We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.



No, you're asking me to prove a negative. As I just stated to Fishy:

We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.



What the hell are you talking about, here?

What did Kun do on Ossus? Who was he covering?

We do not know that Sith magic is ritualized. The onus is on you to prove that. The opposite would seem true given the fact that Aleema fries a guy with a quick jolt of said magic.



Quotes? He was still a weakened, half-mad, 4000 year old spirit that could barely talk.



Yes.



What's he going to keep him busy with? What's he going to keep him busy with that'll keep Kun from raising a hand and blowing Sidious away with one of his gauntlets?



Not very effectively, given that there's no known occurance of them striking a Force user and the only people that should know how to defend against it are the Ancient Sith. Neither Skywalker nor Sidious are members of the Ancient Sith.

So to counter, can Sidious take out Kun with a Force Storm when it only took a weaker Skywalker, an untrained Leia, and a still-developing infant to push it back on him?



I beg to differ. Skywalker will last a respectable amount of time, but Sidious will go down hard, and no known incarnation of Luke can take Kun down alone.

tdtd
No incarnation of luke can take down Kun is pure speculation.

w00t2112
Kun > NJO Luke (my opinion) however i do believe DN Luke is above Kun, given that Kun had a chance to reach the age and his full potential he would surpass Luke, but however as he isnt, we cannot say Kun is more powerful without it having being treated as an opinion and/or speculation

tdtd
Agreed

Fishy
IKC i'm not even going to argue with you anymore about this. Until you prove the following things

Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Taris
Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Manaan
Revan didn't slaughter around 200 Dark Jedi on the Star Forge or on the Leviathan
Revan didn't destroy two Terentak with his lightsaber
Revan's force storm didn't destroy Rakatan and Rancors
Revan didn't eat apple pie for lunch the day before Malak shot his ship down.

Seriously you are asking us to prove that he couldn't do something when we never see him do it. Logical fallacy at its finest as you like to put it.

tdtd
I agree fishy

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
No, you're asking me to prove a negative. As I just stated to Fishy:

We know that he could perform action X. It is your job to prove that he needed to do Y in order to perform action X. It is not my job to prove that he didn't (which would be proving a negative) need to do Y to perform action X.

No...we know that he can perfom action X while being close to the target. This is like saying that Obi-Wan could force push Grievous into the air while Grievous is on Utapau and Obi-Wan is on Coruscant because we saw that Obi-Wan can force push Grievous when standing right in front of him. That's just BS, IKC and you should see that.



You should learn to distinquish between different forms of force use. We are talking about a manipulating a massive number of living beings and there is no single situation in the entire EU where this was done easily or effortless which indicates that this was something that required a ritualized form of force user or massive amounts of concentration. As we don't see Kun concentrating much the other conclusion would be that he used a ritual which effect was that the people in the senate where frozen.
Otherwise I don't see the point why Kun wouldn't use the same stuff in any situation (freeze Odan Urr on Ossus / use it against the Jedi over Yavin 4) or in the final confrontation with Luke's students in the Jedi Academy when he was a spirit.



Go and read the passage yourself when Luke gets attacked by Exar Kun and Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Anderson. I can't give you actual quotes sind I don't have the english version of the book.



What makes you think that Kun can simply blow away Sidious with his gauntlets, eh ? Have you ever seen a Sith using said technology against another Sith because I didn't. Then what makes you sure that another Sith can't block the effect or simply dodge it (force speed).

If you just didn't notice it - both situations in which Kun used his amulet against living force users (Odan and Sylvar) didn't result in an instakill and I hope you won't compare 1000 year old Odan (already weakened through age) or relative weak Sylvar to NJO Luke or DE Sidious.



I love how you simply "forget" that Sidious obviously had access to ancient Sith lore and so had Luke (through Sidious in DE). And is Sadow the better Sith alchemist compared to Ragnos now or are NJO Luke and DE Sidious weakling compared to Kyle Katarn - because obviously Katarn can survive a blast from Ragnos sceptre but Luke and Sidious shouldn't be able to take a blast from Sadow's gauntlets (when said blast was survived by Sylvar) ?

I wonder how Kun will "resist" Luke's "emerald sparks disable ability" without knowing it...



Oh year it "only" took the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin which is - as far as I remember - the greatest mass of combined force potential being used on a single target in the entire EU to stop DE Sidious force storm. I'm sure Kun alone easily tops the combined potential of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.



I still wonder how Exar is going to kill Sidious while having to fight Luke at the same time or vice versa.

tdtd
Good points, for me I don't think Kun is better than NJO Luke and adding DE Sidious is an overkill.

Wesker
Originally posted by Fishy
IKC i'm not even going to argue with you anymore about this. Until you prove the following things

Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Taris
Revan didn't slaughter everybody in the Sith base on Manaan
Revan didn't slaughter around 200 Dark Jedi on the Star Forge or on the Leviathan
Revan didn't destroy two Terentak with his lightsaber
Revan's force storm didn't destroy Rakatan and Rancors
Revan didn't eat apple pie for lunch the day before Malak shot his ship down.

Seriously you are asking us to prove that he couldn't do something when we never see him do it. Logical fallacy at its finest as you like to put it.

For the record, I don't really think Kun has this in the bag, but I'd like to point out that Fishy is asking IKC here to disprove things that can't be falsified. This would be like saying "God exists."

"No, he doesn't."

"Prove me wrong".

Whosoever makes the assertion that X did Y must provide the evidence and reasoning behind it. If we ran around accepting things just because they could not be disproved I could say that I know a man on the farthest moon of Jupiter and he survives in the atmosphere there because he is specially made and none of you can actually disprove that because of how I have constructed the statement (evidence gathering limitations aside, of course. We can't actually go to said moon to disprove this, nor can we conduct a clean sweep of the moon to disprove either.)

Fishy, the default stance for any debate is skepticism on any unusual or out of the blue claims. I notice that you are oh so quick to be skeptical and try to discredit Kun's accomplishments and powers, but when it comes to Revan we have to accept gameplay points and mechanics to boost him up in lieu of actual canonical proof. That... is logical fallacy.

Btw, nice to see you again, Nai. Be sure to visit EoD.

Illustrious
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kun > NJO Luke (my opinion) however i do believe DN Luke is above Kun, given that Kun had a chance to reach the age and his full potential he would surpass Luke, but however as he isnt, we cannot say Kun is more powerful without it having being treated as an opinion and/or speculation

So effectively you're saying "we can not say Kun is more powerful than Luke because of age."

Wow, awesome logic roll eyes (sarcastic).

IKC
And we also know he can perform action Y while outside the room. Indeed, Kun's control of the Force is so masterful that he was able to open Ulic Qel-Droma's chains (Ulic was temporarily blind to the Force at the time) before the doors of the senate ever opened.

Proof? Here:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2001/kunbustsin7cx.th.jpg

Wheras action Y is his control over the multitude of Senators and their guards and other spectators, it is logically sound to assume that Kun could have performed X (controlling the Chancellor) from any position in that massive room, even outside it.



Wrong. You have nothing to base this ritual assumption on, Nai. There is no evidence on-panel, in dialogue, narration, or anywhere else. Ergo, until you provide proof to that point, it is proper to assume that Kun was actively holding the Senators in check and that he did so with ease.

By the way, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because nobody else did what Kun did with such ease doesn't mean, therefore, that Kun can't. But you people seem to have a problem accepting Kun's power as it is shown so you come up with these theories (rituals?) that have no basis in evidence.



So because he didn't use X in situation Y, that means he can't? Kun also could have pulled a lightsaber out and spun around like a ballerina, but he didn't. Does that mean he can't?

He instakilled Odan-Urr, so I don't know why you think controlling him would have been more beneficial to Kun.

All of the Jedi in the galaxy were above Yavin IV. Kun's power is titanic, but not even Ragnos has the power to do anything significant to such a force.

And in the "final confrontation" between Luke and his students it was shown that he was a weakened, 4000 year old, half-mad spirit.



How is Kun's performance as a weakened, half mad, 4000 year old spirit relevant to this discussion?



Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Sidious hardly counts as a person who would have the knowledge or tools that would allow him to be able to block said blasts. Only the Ancient Sith could be said to have that ability, and that's an unsupported assumption.

And dodging? I hope he likes to run a lot, because as shown on panel, Kun can blast repeatedly with no apparent recharge time. That, and he has another amulet on the right hand that he didn't have when he fought the sith wyrm.



Uh, what? When did Kun use the amulet on either of those two?

You have no proof of this. Kun merely pushed Sylvar and instakilled Odan. So what's your point here?

Not to mention that you have no proof that Odan was weakened through age, either. That's a half-assed assumption.



I love how you simply forget that both of them merely had access to crumbs in comparison to what the Ancient Sith lore was during the Golden Age. Hell, they had nothing even in comparison to what Kun gathered.

Yeah, Katarn survived a blast from Ragnos' scepter, wielded by a weakling and an entirely different artifact from Kun's amulets.

And Sylvar was never hit by a blast from Kun, so how would she have survived it? Are we making things up again?



I wonder how Luke will "resist" Kun's amulet blasts or instakill attack, then.



As far as you remember? You don't remember very well then.

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8518/alljedi18mm.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/4686/alljedi25mz.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/2329/alljedi35kv.th.jpg
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

I'd say that's a greater combination of Force potential than any three people.

And for all you know, Kun does top their potential. Or for all you know, Ragnos doesn't. Want to get into pointless hypotheticals again?



Mostly because it seems to take no time at all for Kun to fire off his blasts. That and being the only person in the fight to know Sith magic certainly helps.

tdtd
What makes you think DE Sidious doesn't know Sith Magic? In fact it's been stated that DE Sidious learned ancient Sith magic on Byss and Korriban so your statement is false.

Fishy
Originally posted by Wesker
For the record, I don't really think Kun has this in the bag, but I'd like to point out that Fishy is asking IKC here to disprove things that can't be falsified. This would be like saying "God exists."

"No, he doesn't."

"Prove me wrong".

Whosoever makes the assertion that X did Y must provide the evidence and reasoning behind it. If we ran around accepting things just because they could not be disproved I could say that I know a man on the farthest moon of Jupiter and he survives in the atmosphere there because he is specially made and none of you can actually disprove that because of how I have constructed the statement (evidence gathering limitations aside, of course. We can't actually go to said moon to disprove this, nor can we conduct a clean sweep of the moon to disprove either.)

Fishy, the default stance for any debate is skepticism on any unusual or out of the blue claims. I notice that you are oh so quick to be skeptical and try to discredit Kun's accomplishments and powers, but when it comes to Revan we have to accept gameplay points and mechanics to boost him up in lieu of actual canonical proof. That... is logical fallacy.

Btw, nice to see you again, Nai. Be sure to visit EoD.

Actually Janus the reason i'm saying that is because IKC is asking me to prove that couldn't Kun control the chancelor from a distance, when we have no prove he could.

Its a sucky debating technique, thats why I am asking him to prove that Revan didn't do that, or actually i'm just trying to show him that what he's doing is wrong and that he is the one that needs to prove up.

Wesker
Originally posted by Fishy
Actually Janus the reason i'm saying that is because IKC is asking me to prove that couldn't Kun control the chancelor from a distance, when we have no prove he could.

Its a sucky debating technique, thats why I am asking him to prove that Revan didn't do that, or actually i'm just trying to show him that what he's doing is wrong and that he is the one that needs to prove up.

Fair enough. I didn't read all the previous posts because I didn't have the patience last night, but I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of what a bad debating tactic that is, regardless of who uses it.

tdtd
agreed

Fishy
Originally posted by Wesker
Fair enough. I didn't read all the previous posts because I didn't have the patience last night, but I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of what a bad debating tactic that is, regardless of who uses it.

Completely agree thats why I used it.

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
What makes you think DE Sidious doesn't know Sith Magic? In fact it's been stated that DE Sidious learned ancient Sith magic on Byss and Korriban so your statement is false.

It's stated nowhere that he learned Sith magic. The very concept of Sith magic didn't even exist when DE was written, dude.



Wrong, you are asking me to prove that Kun didn't need to be near the Chancellor to control him. That's asking me to prove a negative. You prove the positive.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
And we also know he can perform action Y while outside the room. Indeed, Kun's control of the Force is so masterful that he was able to open Ulic Qel-Droma's chains (Ulic was temporarily blind to the Force at the time) before the doors of the senate ever opened.


Wheras action Y is his control over the multitude of Senators and their guards and other spectators, it is logically sound to assume that Kun could have performed X (controlling the Chancellor) from any position in that massive room, even outside it.

Again you are using logical fallacies as proof. So because he can perfom action Y (unlocking Ulic's chains) from a certain range he can automatically perform action X (controlling the Chancelor) from the same range ? What BS is that, IKC ? Would you agree that controlling millions of people at once or controlling a single person takes a little more effort than simple telekinesis ? The two actions aren't even compareable.



Sith magic was always ritualized form of force use. Go and check every source about Sith history and it will tell you that the Sith used rituals. So I don't see how "Sith magic" in this case suddenly developed into instant force use.
And the point alone that nobody could control such an amount of beings without preperation time or massive concentration alone is reason enough to assume that Kun needed either a ritual ("spellcasting" - Sith magic) or massive amounts of concentration to keep that control up. Since he doesn't display the second that points to the first.



With this logic you can assume everything and nobody can say something against it. Yoda is the most powerful being ever because he could destroy planets with a snap of his fingers ? You don't believe me ? Well...absence of proof is not proof of absence so unless you can't provide proof that Yoda can't tear down planets (which is impossible) I can assume that he has that ability. Do you see how stupid that is ?



Again: You have to provide proof that he can and not vice versa.



Oh he "instakilled" Odan-Urr ? That's why Odan is still talking after Kun did hit him ? Yeah, right. So because Kun was able to kill a 1000-year-old Jedi Master, a 400 year old spirit and could throw Sylvar around like a ragdoll he can suddenly instakill people like NJO Luke or Sidious ?



Bah...and absence of proof is no proof either. And this seems to be the way it works for you when it comes to Kun's power. He never has shown the ability to kill people in the hight of their power with blasts from his amulets so unless you can proof that he can do that the facts show that he can't meaning he simply can't destroy Sidious with a single blast of his amulet.
And apart from this Sidious had nearly a century to gather knowledge and he obviously visited Korriban and Ziost - and we have seen him talking to the Ancient Sith. And you are talking about simple force defence here. How does that require to be an ancient Sith nowadays. So Yoda was a Sith obviously, because he could block Sith lightning ?



And I hope that blasts are faster than laser bolts since we have seen a Padawan running away with force speed from blasterfire in TPM. And of course Kun will keep firing on Sidious while having to fight Luke and both will not even think about attacking Kun on melee range and thereby avoiding fire from the amulets.



Yeah...the glowing of the amulet when he kills Odan obviously is nothing, same when he throws Sylvar around. That's just his personal force power of course.



So I guess Odans "I am old...evil is loose in the galaxy... and I cannot stop it" simply means that Kun was just so over powerful and that's why Odan emphasizes that he is old.



I guess 25,000 years of holocrons, scrolls and other stuff stored in the Jedi temple and plundered by Sidious - clearly including Sith holocrons as they are mentioned on several ocassions - should include quite some knowledge about the Dark Side. Of course it's nothing compared to what Kun had but I don't see where Kun's superior knowledge (Sith magic, Sith alchemy) would be of any help here.



I wonder how Luke will resist non-existant instakill attacks too...



It was you who stated that Kun tops their potential, not me.



Of course Sidious, being the Dark Lord of the Sith won't know Sith magic especially when his force storm seems to be exactly that.
And of course he will score 100 % hits on two people who both have demonstrated the ability to move faster than the eye can see. This will of course lead to instant death of Sidious because he gets hit by a weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly. And you're talking to me about "pointless hypotheticals" when this is what your entire "Kun wins this easily" argument is based on ?

By the way...Kun will get obliterated by Luke or Sidious with a snap of their fingers. They can do that because absense of proof is no proof of absense. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Illustrious
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. It also isn't proof of the affirmative either.

Also, Sith Magic does seem to have some instantaneous properties. Aleema tried to take out Kun with a visible blast of something that she called "Sith Magic."

Darth_Glentract

Darth_Glentract

tdtd
This is an overkill on Kun, that's obvious

Veneficus
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just curious, why did Aleema leave him if the attack was going so good?

I can answer this one. Aleema purposely left Ulic so that he would get captured.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by tdtd
This is an overkill on Kun, that's obvious

I don't think most people are arguing for Luke as much as they are arguing against Exar. IKC has kind of put him on a pedestal that he doesn't belong on.

tdtd
I completely agree with glentract

IKC
1) Except then you use your brain and realize that Kun was actively controlling the rest of the Senate already:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5818/kuncontrolssenate9ta.th.jpg

Because the odds are so prohibitively high that each and every spectator in that building was looking at what Kun wanted them to look at already, it is logically sound to assume that what Kun did was not a simple freeze spell, but one of control. Why? Because he forces them to watch what he wants them to watch. Anyone who wasn't already looking at what he wanted them to see would have been forced to. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Therefore, because Kun has demonstrated the ability to control the rest of the Senate, comprised of a great multitude of multiracial beings, it is also logically sound to assume that he did not need to walk up to the Chancellor to control him, either. He did, though, because it is obvious that Kun is big on theatrics, as demonstrated by his entrance to the Senate itself:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2001/kunbustsin7cx.th.jpg



2) Lol. I love how you tell me to "go check every source" but fail to provide one, and the ones I have show it as instantaneous. Example:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1492/instantmagic1sm.th.jpg

Aleema does things like that throughout DLotS and TSW. In fact, the only Sith ritual that we know of is the one at the end of TSW when Kun released his spirit. That's it.

So put up or shut up.



Except not. You haven't proven that "nobody" could control such an amount of beings. Kun is shown to have done it. Ergo, this combined with the fact that almost all Sith magic is shown to be instantaneous with the exception of one incident, the onus is on you to prove that Kun used a ritual.



Uh, except Kun was shown to perform this feat, and knowing what we know about Sith magic, he did it instantly. Seeing what we saw with Kun's behavior while he held the spell in effect, it was nearly effortless. So the onus is on you to prove otherwise.



See point 1.



3) Oh, so because he managed to utter a few words as he was dying from Kun's attack, that means Kun didn't instakill him? By that logic, Traya didn't instakill anyone either because the Jedi grunted and screamed.

Odan was alive for precisely one panel after Kun hit him, and he was dying in said panel. Kun instakilled him.



Uh, what? You just effectively stated my absence of proof was proof of absence. Logical fallacy, anyone?

Kun's never shown to take a shit. Does this mean he can't?



Uh, what century was this that Sidious was spending gathering the crumbs of what was left of the Ancient Sith?

Yes, he spoke to the "ancient Sith" in DE, which was later retconned by the very existence of TOTJ which throws the entire DE backstory timeline off by about three thousand years as well as completely destroys the hyperbolic descriptions of DE Luke and DE Sidious' power.

4) And no, we're not talking about "simple force defense" when we're talking about blasts from the hands that seem to be as powerful as capital ship cannons. Perhaps you need to see the scans again:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

And we can assume that the Ancient Sith either had a defense for it because Ragnos could merely have been blown away by Sadow or someone else if there were no defense. Another theory is that the ancient Sith did not dare to use the amulets in this manner because they knew that the other Sith may be able to get their own shot off, which would result in mutually assured destruction.



Er, see point #4, specifically the scans. How would closing to melee range really help them when 1) the blasts come from his hands and thereby would be harder to avoid and 2) Kun's a master of lightsaber combat, arguably one of if not the best depicted on panel or on screen?



Make things up much?

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7934/kunleavesthesenate1me.th.jpg

Hmm, no glowing there.

5) As for Odan:

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/1685/kunpwnsodan1uh.th.jpg

We see Odan glow blue on the very same f'ing page. Aleema's attacks shoot green. Are these two using Sith amulets, Nai?

Well?

Nice try, but go with some solid evidence next time. It was Kun's power until proven otherwise.



Uh, Nai, he didn't say "I've been killed because I'm old," or "I'm dying because I'm old." He was quite obviously well enough to attempt an attack on Kun that failed because of Kun's overwhelming power. Odan didn't die because he was old, he died because Kun was too powerful for him.



6) Actually, not. They only had one Sith holocron by the time of the PT and it's unclear what, exactly, Sith holocrons contain. The one that Kun obtained actually held the spirits of Ancient Sith themselves, ergo it's fallacious to argue that Sidious learned jack shit from a Sith holocron until we see concrete, canon evidence. That and it's evident from the PT that Jedi knowledge was stored in the Library. So what scrolls would Sidious have found, then? I'd argue that Kun's plundering of Ossus netted him far more valuable knowledge in both quality and quantity than Sidious' plundering of Coruscant's temple.

Kun's superior knowledge is extraordinarily helpful when you use your brain and realize that Sith magic itself was one of the principle traits that made the Ancients so uber.



See points 4 and 5.

IKC
No, the storm is never described as sith magic. It's described as a weapon of the Sith. Sith magic didn't exist canonically at the time that DE was written. It was made to exist, along with the Ancient Sith, with the writing of TOTJ.



As if Kun is suddenly a shitty shot, untrained in simple Jedi precognition and using the Force to enhance his own speed? Right. Nevermind that said blasts were about as big around as the Sith Wyrm they were used on.

"weapon we've never seen killing a force user instantly."

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Kun's never shown to kill Jar Jar, does this mean he can't? We never see the Death Star kill a force user with the main superlaser, does that mean it can't?

The pwnage will continue, with Glentract:



Ossus didn't have jack shit on Sith lore other than basic history that they weren't even sure of. Hell, Odan was in possession of what was thought to be the only Sith holocron to exist before Exar took it from him.

The Jedi had knowledge of some of the Sith's capabilities but that doesn't mean they knew how to perform these actions. It would seem ridiculous to assume that they kept records of how to use Dark Side attacks when it goes completely against their philosophy.

And maybe you don't remember, but Ossus was scorched with ten supernovae. Very, very little, if anything, survived that holocaust.



See above point.

And in DLotS, it is shown that Vodo's holocron only has Sith history, not knowledge, techniques, or otherwise. This holocron is also the one that Exar destroys, as well.



Yes, because Borsk Fey'la was an expert on Sith lore, and he couldn't possibly be talking about the mountains of datacards detailing many of Palpatine's secrets. Oh, no.

What artifacts did Palpatine have, hm? Can you name any? Why was he so stupid that, if he had them, he didn't use them?

Darth Bane is not an Ancient Sith. Bane's knowledge comes nowhere near what Kun gathered. Hell, Sidious' knowledge comes nowhere near:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3984/kunmorewealthknowledge2sb.th.jpg

Read the narration.



Giving them access to something and teaching are two wildly different things. As well, Sidious lost a great amount of the access to his old knowledge by the time of DE. I could even go so far as to assume that all of the Bane holocrons were stuck on Coruscant where Sidious couldn't get to them by DE.

You must prove up: what did Sidious give Luke access to? Where is it even stated that he gave Luke access to anything?



No, your point does not remain because your example was wildly flawed. For all you know, the Force storm was invented thousands of years before Ragnos even came to rule and was common knowledge among the Ancient Sith. Your assumption that only the top tier knew it is unsupported and therefore impermissible.

Force storms are described in narration as a weapon of the ancient Sith, as I recall from what Lightsnake argued. It is completely unspecified who knew it, therefore to assume that only X knew it or that Y didn't know it is completely unsupported and again, impermissible.



Except not. See point #1.



Debating from ignorance gets your ass handed to you.

7) As we see from Mandalore's dialogue and narration, the attack on Coruscant would have succeeded if Aleema had not canceled the attack. Ulic's plan was to get to the War Room (which he did) and have all the commanders of every Republic fleet hyperjump to the same point in space, which would decimiate the entire Republic navy. With that done, his military would easily be the strongest in the galaxy, which then would be vulnerable to Sith domination.

He was stopped before he could get the order out by the Jedi after Aleema pulled his support back and fled.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum



Veneficus answered. She wanted command of the combined armies of Teta and Mandalore.



Except that there's no proof for your assertion that some members would have been there via long distance communication, and no reason to assume that they were. The proper assumption is that after an almost-successful attack on the capital world after which the leader of the belligerant military was captured, almost all if not all Senators would be present at his trial.



8) Again, did it hurt to pull that subjective observation number out of your ass?

To quote myself: Uh, my scans work. Take a look at the one I posted previously (http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8052/sylvarnoconsequence2mj.th.jpg), and look at the Chancellor's podium again. In that scan, we get a ground-level view of it. It's enormous. It might be as big around as the Washington Monument. The thing is immense. The entire building is immense.

Here's a bird's-eye view of it:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5863/senateoutside9wf.th.jpg

That building is easily many times the size of anything we have built on Earth. That combined with the fact that Star Wars technology far surpasses our own, and you have a building that can hold at least a million beings.

Note how the building dwarfs every other building visible in the Coruscant skyline. Only the nearby port is taller, but nowhere near as large in surface area or volume.

IKC
I already did this earlier, and you just asked me to prove a negative. They are referred to as the delegates (or representatives, don't remember specifically) of the Trade Federation, not witnesses or lobbyists or anything else. This indicates they also had voting power and a permanent seat in the Senate. QED.



http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3696/shipyard10ii.th.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2074/shipyard27yq.th.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3467/shipyard34kn.th.jpg

So if Ulic's attacks are so insignificant, why is it a dark day for the Republic? Why must it be reported to Coruscant at once? You realize by this point that Ulic had stolen "300 of the Republic's newest warships," right?

By the way, your assertion that the Republic had so many shipyards that Ulic's raids did little damage is completely unfounded. We know precisely dick about the Republic's production capabilities as of TSW.



Except that these ten stars represented a star system around which are planets, among them Ossus, the Jedi world.



No, bullshit. Prove up. The seats are full and they believed the leadership of the attackers to be captured. What reason is there to be scared if the threat is gone?



See point 8.



See point 8.



See point 8.



Keep making that laughable assertion and I'll point out that you've offered up precisely dick as to how even DN Luke could survive an encounter with a living Exar Kun.



No, based off the scans Kun was toying with Vodo the entire time, then got serious at the end, and tooled him.



And this changes what, exactly?



And if you had turned on your brain while reading the Thrawn books you would realize that Joruus was mad throughout the entirety of the trilogy and that his ability to hide it diminished at times.

And the point remains that the insane Joruus only thought he had the ability to control 37,000 minds but he didn't even try to do it. Ergo, this proves nothing.



If Joruus had done the feat you would have proved something. The fact that Joruus, an insane Dark Jedi, thought he could do it more or less means precisely dick because of both his very questionable judgment and the fact that he didn't even try to do it.



Consistency anyone?

"Joruus can't rival Exar, but he rivals Exar!"

No, bullshit. Exar controlled more beings with less effort that Joruus ever showed. Scale and ease makes his feat exponentially more impressive than Joruus' non-attempted feat.

See point #1.



See point 1. He controlled them "perfectly" according to the omnisicent narrator. He did so with such ease that he was able to walk around, use the Chancellor as a puppet, and pwn an ancient Jedi master while keeping his hold on them.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Fishy
IKC you still haven't proven that Exar controlled the Senators or that there were a million people ther.

BTW just because I know you will never accept it

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_21_16.jpg

The senate is Frozen... Not controlled, Frozen.

And the senate chambers simply can not house a million beings simple as that.

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