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Is it just me or has the Avengers always been way overrated when it comes to superteams. I mean the core members of Cap, Iron Man, & Thor are good, but the rest are lame. I always found it ridiculous when an Avenger comic had a picture of the team walking through a crowd and the caption said that the people were in awe of the mighty Avengers, but you look at the team and you see The Wasp, Triathlon, ANt-Man, or so other lame character. I mean come on now, the wasp. A socialite who has the power to turn to wasp size and shoot a stinger blast at people. I always felt that since the Avengers are Marvels most powerful superteam that they should match up with DC's JLA. I know that DC characters in general are written to be more god-like but there are better characters to add to the Avengers roster. Even the New Avengers are lame. THe Sentry is the only addition that would make them powerful. Spiderwoman is just another version of The Wasp. She is drawn very well, but that is about it. Luke Cage is a step below the RHino and one step above the Sandman. He is cool but not that powerful. I like how Marvel is trying to add their most popular characters to the Avengers roster. That is what DC did with the JLA. The JLA is comprised of DC's most popular and most powerful characters. My New Avengers roster would be: Cap, Iron Man, Thor and then add Gladiator, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, and Jean Grey. That gives them physical power, telepathy, and supreme magic wielding. Your thoughts.

Why do so many people think that for something/one to be cool, it has to be extremely powerful?

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Why do so many people think that for something/one to be cool, it has to be extremely powerful?
I am not saying that a character has to be extremely powerful to be cool , but since it is the Avengers and they are billed as the worlds mightiest team then they do should be powerful and reflect that billing.

Originally posted by kenobi
I am not saying that a character has to be extremely powerful to be cool , but since it is the Avengers and they are billed as the worlds mightiest team then they do should be powerful and reflect that billing. I do get what you're saying. But with the lineup you suggested, they'd really be able to beat pretty much anything that came their way. They've got too much power.

I think most Avenger lineups have been good. Worthy of being called Earths Mightiest Heroes, but weak enough that sometimes you don't really know how they'll possibly defeat a threat, which makes it interesting.

I don't think the New Avengers are worthy of being called Earth Mightiest Heroes yet though.

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Why do so many people think that for something/one to be cool, it has to be extremely powerful?

Exactly.... and how on Earth (or in the Shi'ar empire) could you justify Gladiator ever joining the Avengers?

i personally don't read JLA... to be honest the idea of Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and the Flash together not being able to immediately curbstomp an enemy is fairly far fetched..... if they do get someone who represents a challenge then that person/being would have to be completely, rediculously powerful

The Avengers lower general power level makes it more believable that previously known characters can give them trouble

I would, personally, hate to see an all powerful Avengers line-up

"I am not saying that a character has to be extremely powerful to be cool , but since it is the Avengers and they are billed as the worlds mightiest team then they do should be powerful and reflect that billing"


In the same way, Justice League is considered DCs strongest team, and you had line up that werent powerful at all compared with other teams at the time.

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Why do so many people think that for something/one to be cool, it has to be extremely powerful?

Because you get a lot of DC fanboys that are used to having 75% of their heroes be extremely powerful. To be honest, that's what turned me off of DC, save Batman, and some of the Vertigo stuff. The only reason I enjoy Kingdom Come is because most of the heroes go boom. The Avengers are Earth's Mightiest Heroes not because of their powers, but because of their ability to go through the worst crises, and band together to battle evil. Their leader right now is not the strongest fighter in comics right now, but he's a symbol of America. He's Captain America, and he's the superhero symbol of our country, and that can't be argued. So, to you saying the Avengers are overrated, I say that they are the greatest of all time because they're heroes who care about the people, not dickheads who sit on seats of incredible power.

I think Antman and/or Wasp were more part of the Avenger's tech team.

Having lower tier characters on your team can be helpful though. "Realistically" not every villian is going to be some physically dominating character that needs to be brawled for good to win. Sometimes being tiny with stinger blasts or firing specialized arrows with deadly accuracy is effective too.

Besides, the universe is a big place. There's a lot of evil to defeat. We can't all be trolling around America for a thug to thrash.

Originally posted by kenobi
My New Avengers roster would be: Cap, Iron Man, Thor and then add Gladiator, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, and Jean Grey. That gives them physical power, telepathy, and supreme magic wielding. Your thoughts.
Gladiator? Whaaa?

. My New Avengers roster would be: Cap, Iron Man, Thor and then add Gladiator, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, and Jean Grey. That gives them physical power, telepathy, and supreme magic wielding. Your thoughts.


You're complaining about the Avengers not being strong enought so you add in Spiderman?
The problem with adding more and more upper level characters into the advengers is that you would limit the options the writers have to tell stories. I mean just how many enemies could you make that would be a real threat to that team? Honestly, Thor shouldn't even be on the Avengers given how powerful he and his hammer are (they've have gotten around this by making him an idiot who hardly ever uses most of his abilities). Adding more firepower doesn't make a team better, it just makes it harder to write good stories with them, and isn't that the point after all?

A ton way better than X-Men!!!

Originally posted by Marcus4600
Their leader right now is not the strongest fighter in comics right now, but he's a symbol of America. He's Captain America, and he's the superhero symbol of our country, and that can't be argued.

He's no symbol for my country

Originally posted by kenobi
I like how Marvel is trying to add their most popular characters to the Avengers roster. That is what DC did with the JLA. The JLA is comprised of DC's most popular and most powerful characters. My New Avengers roster would be: Cap, Iron Man, Thor and then add Gladiator, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, Valkyrie, and Jean Grey. That gives them physical power, telepathy, and supreme magic wielding. Your thoughts.
That only gives them power but what about the popularity part? The Big 7 concept is impossible for Marvel to do and still maintain a power level worthy of being called Earths Mightiest Heroes. Popularity wise the team would be Spidey, Logan, Daredevil, Hulk, Cap, Iron Man and Thor. If you're just looking for strength, the Avengers have had some nice lineups in the past. There was one with Thor, Vision, Sersi, Hercules, and Crystal. Granted it was Masterson Thor but that's still pretty damn solid.

I think after Civil War the lineup will have a few more in there. I'm expecting Thor to return, and maybe we'll see some others in there.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
Because you get a lot of DC fanboys that are used to having 75% of their heroes be extremely powerful. To be honest, that's what turned me off of DC, save Batman, and some of the Vertigo stuff. The only reason I enjoy Kingdom Come is because most of the heroes go boom. The Avengers are Earth's Mightiest Heroes not because of their powers, but because of their ability to go through the worst crises, and band together to battle evil. Their leader right now is not the strongest fighter in comics right now, but he's a symbol of America. He's Captain America, and he's the superhero symbol of our country, and that can't be argued. So, to you saying the Avengers are overrated, I say that they are the greatest of all time because they're heroes who care about the people, not dickheads who sit on seats of incredible power. A) What have you got against DC? Stop insulting anyone who likes DC and callin them fanboys, Marvel have bloody Wolvie lovers! B) Actually, Cap America's th laughing stock of my country. C) Cap is just a carbon copy of the original laughing stock who stood for the flag, "mom" and apple pie... Uncle Sam of the freedom Fighters!

Originally posted by Knightfall93
A) What have you got against DC? Stop insulting anyone who likes DC and callin them fanboys, Marvel have bloody Wolvie lovers! B) Actually, Cap America's th laughing stock of my country. C) Cap is just a carbon copy of the original laughing stock who stood for the flag, "mom" and apple pie... Uncle Sam of the freedom Fighters!


What the hell did Cap ever do to Britain?

Originally posted by Black Adam
What the hell did Cap ever do to Britain?

Nothing, its just that the amount of patriotism he dishes out every issue is.................well sickening


But some of his issues are incredibly cool

Originally posted by willRules
Nothing, its just that the amount of patriotism he dishes out every issue is.................well sickening


But some of his issues are incredibly cool

True, sometimes i read his appearances and it looks like he's been written by US government or army propaganda specialists

Sometimes, though, he makes a point of saying he's not just fighting to protect US oil interests but the world as a whole ..... but not that often

I actually like the guy and have always thought he was good in the Avengers
___________________________________

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2658/cappres8sh.th.jpg

Cap tells the Prez how it is... then falls back into the good soldier/gullible idiot routine

Originally posted by Knightfall93
A) What have you got against DC? Stop insulting anyone who likes DC and callin them fanboys, Marvel have bloody Wolvie lovers! B) Actually, Cap America's th laughing stock of my country. C) Cap is just a carbon copy of the original laughing stock who stood for the flag, "mom" and apple pie... Uncle Sam of the freedom Fighters!

What have I got against DC? They produce idiots like you that constantly bash Marvel for no apparent reason, except that the characters of Marvel Earth aren't as powerful as DC earth. People like Wolverine because he's a dark character with a cool attitude and well written backstory. He's not a dick like Superman. Second, I wasn't talking about England, mostly because I honestly don't care what the British think. Captain America is an amazing hero. He's by no means the most powerful man in Marvel, but he leads their most powerful team. Eateth that shiteth, dick. Also, show respect for America, you idiot. If it weren't for us, you'd be wearing lieterhosen and speaking German right now. Also, don't forget the Revolutionary War, you douche. So, you can shut the hell up right now, and don't insult Marvel, its characters, or my country again, you horse toothed, tea sucking, limey piece of crap!

I feel better now. I've been wanting to get that out for a while. This guy has been picking fights and spreading rumours ever since I got here. Typical 13 year old.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
What have I got against DC? They produce idiots like you that constantly bash Marvel for no apparent reason

Hypocrite....

Originally posted by Marcus4600
If there's something I learned from Kingdom Come, it's DC Superheroes are douchebags.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
I honestly don't care what the British think.

Also, show respect for America, you idiot. If it weren't for us, you'd be wearing lieterhosen and speaking German right now. Also, don't forget the Revolutionary War, you douche. So, you can shut the hell up right now, and don't insult Marvel, its characters, or my country again, you horse toothed, tea sucking, limey piece of crap!

I feel better now. I've been wanting to get that out for a while. This guy has been picking fights and spreading rumours ever since I got here. Typical 13 year old.

I don't give a f**k what you think of Knightfall.... that load of xenophobic prejudicial horsesh!t is totally out of order

Can't we all just get along?group




Personally, I've always looked at Cap's patriotism as a aspect of his "man out of time" persona. If you think about the fact that he is from the WWII generation, it makes sense that he has a different view of the US government than a person today. It helps to make his distinct from the more cynical time he now lives in.

Bottomline: Nobody agrees with this "kenobi" guy.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
What have I got against DC? They produce idiots like you that constantly bash Marvel for no apparent reason, except that the characters of Marvel Earth aren't as powerful as DC earth. People like Wolverine because he's a dark character with a cool attitude and well written backstory. He's not a dick like Superman. Second, I wasn't talking about England, mostly because I honestly don't care what the British think. Captain America is an amazing hero. He's by no means the most powerful man in Marvel, but he leads their most powerful team. Eateth that shiteth, dick. Also, show respect for America, you idiot. If it weren't for us, you'd be wearing lieterhosen and speaking German right now. Also, don't forget the Revolutionary War, you douche. So, you can shut the hell up right now, and don't insult Marvel, its characters, or my country again, you horse toothed, tea sucking, limey piece of crap!

I feel better now. I've been wanting to get that out for a while. This guy has been picking fights and spreading rumours ever since I got here. Typical 13 year old.



No one even directly insulted you or your opinions, and then you unleash this? Swearing, bashing, bashing again, swearing again....you get the idea. "Typical 13 year old" at the end of the message sounded for like an explanation for your comments than explaining someone else's.

If you think someone's bashing or picking fights, that's fine. But there's other ways to handle it.

On another note, I always felt a little uneasy about Cap. He's great for Americans, but I always felt kinda stupid realizing that he was bludgeoning other countries with excessive American patriotism in comics.

But he's still sweet....I just don't like the fact that some people resent him (or Americans) simply because of his presence.

I did not appreciate the "A for France" joke in Ultimates

there's so much that could be said about various countries involvements (or lack thereof) during the world wars... but if the joke had been made about Americans i doubt you all would have found it half as funny

Originally posted by Scoobless
I did not appreciate the "A for France" joke in Ultimates

there's so much that could be said about various countries involvements (or lack thereof) during the world wars... but if the joke had been made about Americans i doubt you all would have found it half as funny

I'm a big cap fan and I hated that joke. Don't really like Ultimate cap that much as well.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I did not appreciate the "A for France" joke in Ultimates

there's so much that could be said about various countries involvements (or lack thereof) during the world wars... but if the joke had been made about Americans i doubt you all would have found it half as funny

Yeah, they gotta realize they're writing for a global audience, and should be enlightened enough to encourage equal lighting for all nations and peoples.

...that sounded kinda preachy to me, but it's true.

Meh, that Ultimate Cap line really didn't bother me. It's probably because I'm not French or anything, but to me, it just didn't strike me as that big of a deal.

Ultimate Cap is SUPPOSED to be a chauvinistic pig. Millar is one of the most critical writers of American policy in comicdom. He wrote that on purpose.

I've always have and will have respect for Captain America. He's one of the coolest heroes from Marvel. "Oh, he's too patriotic..." Well what the hell do you expect him to be? Superman is also patriotic and just like Capt. he follows orders. Just because you see him near Bush he's a sheep....come on!

As for the team....What I used (yes, I no longer follow any Marvel comics) to like about the Avengers was the similiarities in team work. West Coast Avengers was one of my favorite titles. I never did find them overrated....overpower...yes. But overrated? Nah!

Also, show respect for America, you idiot. If it weren't for us, you'd be wearing lieterhosen and speaking German right now.

I don't give a f**k what you think of Knightfall.... that load of xenophobic prejudicial horsesh!t is totally out of order

You both suck.

If it weren't for those evil Commies (Soviets), we'd be eating kraut and be all Germany and the like! Now hush it and act like adults and read a history book.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I don't give a f**k what you think of Knightfall.... that load of xenophobic prejudicial horsesh!t is totally out of order

Because you know me so well in person and can tell me that I'm afraid of foreigners and a racist. I'm not a racist by any means, but I stand behind my country, and the stance that it takes. I also stick with the fact that I love Marvel Comics, and can't stand it when idiots who don't read the comics go off and say that they suck. I've read DC, and I've read Marvel. I chose Marvel, because I liked the fact that the heroes didn't have to be near godlike to have great stories. You get interesting characters with spectacular powers, but at the end of the day, when the masks are off, they're ordinary people, and that's amazing. They have problems, they have struggles, and they show the full spectrum of human life in a comic book. Marvel is the first to do it, and will always be known to have done it first.

\m/ Respect Marvel Comics \m/

Personally i think marvel comics already gets enough respect, in fact maybe too much.................

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I've always have and will have respect for Captain America. He's one of the coolest heroes from Marvel. "Oh, he's too patriotic..." Well what the hell do you expect him to be? Superman is also patriotic and just like Capt. he follows orders. Just because you see him near Bush he's a sheep....come on!


Cap's cool as hell...didn't mean to send the wrong message. It can just be overdone soemtimes in light of the global fanbase he has.

meh. of course the joke wouldn't be as funny to americans if it was made about america. but it would be a hell of a lot funnier to everyone else. it's the nature of humor, cap just happened to be the man making the joke.

and what's xenophobic about saying without america europe would be royally massacred during WWII?

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
meh. of course the joke wouldn't be as funny to americans if it was made about america. but it would be a hell of a lot funnier to everyone else. it's the nature of humor, cap just happened to be the man making the joke.

and what's xenophobic about saying without america europe would be royally massacred during WWII?

It isn't. We're in agreement there. But what I'm saying is that there's people who will decide to dislike Cap, or a particular country, because of soemthing that's printed in a comic. It's stupid and illogical, but I guarantee you it's happened.

So yeah, everyone should take the joke (or any joke) light-heartedly. I would too, even if I wasn't an American....but the fact that not everyone will can be unsettling. And I don't think comic writers should alter their writing to accomodate this, but it's just something to think about.

coincidentally, cap is a good deal less verbal with his patriotism than usagent. if the "in your face" stance you're referring to is his costume, which i can only suppose is at least part of it, i suppose you'd have to take equal offense to half of the alpha flight roster. he's american, he's a war veteran, and despite having a UN charter, he keeps his homeland at heart. i don't see where that's any worse than various other heroes who represent their motherlands. sunfire, AF, colossus in the old days, sabra. it's just part of the character. aside from the ultimate cap quote, is that any reason to take offense to them?

and marcus, what do you mean "and the stance it takes"? many americans, unlike the polarized talk-show hosts, don't have any negative opinions toward the british, or really any other country. maybe we're being led by a egomaniacal SOB with a messiah complex, but that hardly represents the opinion, or stance, of the entire country.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
and what's xenophobic about saying without america europe would be royally massacred during WWII?

well that part is just pure speculation.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
Because you know me so well in person and can tell me that I'm afraid of foreigners and a racist.
It was this part that i was talking about...
Originally posted by Marcus4600
you horse toothed, tea sucking, limey piece of crap!

and i never called you a racist.... i said you were prejudiced....which seems fairly self evident.... how else do you explain that sentence?

Originally posted by Disappear
maybe we're being led by a egomaniacal SOB with a messiah complex, but that hardly represents the opinion, or stance, of the entire country.

long live democracy....

Meh. I just got pissed.


anyway, yeah the Avengers rule!

Originally posted by Marcus4600
What have I got against DC? They produce idiots like you that constantly bash Marvel for no apparent reason, except that the characters of Marvel Earth aren't as powerful as DC earth. People like Wolverine because he's a dark character with a cool attitude and well written backstory. He's not a dick like Superman. Second, I wasn't talking about England, mostly because I honestly don't care what the British think. Captain America is an amazing hero. He's by no means the most powerful man in Marvel, but he leads their most powerful team. Eateth that shiteth, dick. Also, show respect for America, you idiot. If it weren't for us, you'd be wearing lieterhosen and speaking German right now. Also, don't forget the Revolutionary War, you douche. So, you can shut the hell up right now, and don't insult Marvel, its characters, or my country again, you horse toothed, tea sucking, limey piece of crap!

I feel better now. I've been wanting to get that out for a while. This guy has been picking fights and spreading rumours ever since I got here. Typical 13 year old.
I actually agree that DC's heroes are way too powerful. I detest Superman and feel that DC caters all their characters around Superman. Marvel does not do this with their most popular characters and I like that. I hate how Superman has to be the strongest and the fastest and the best at everything. It dwindles the effect of the other heroes. Marvel makes every character special and able to stand on their own. That is why I like DC's Captain Marvel because he comes around now and then and knocks Superman around and shows that Superman is not the center of everything. Captain America I thought was the premier fighter in the Marvel Universe. Then after him is Wolverine and Iron Fist. Is this correct?

Originally posted by kenobi
Captain America I thought was the premier fighter in the Marvel Universe. Then after him is Wolverine and Iron Fist. Is this correct?

You have to consider Shang Chi, The Cat, The Kingpin, various aliens, Mr X, DareDevil, Elektra, Black Panther, Taskmaster, etc, etc ..... seems every street level character has spent their entire life training at a wide range of martial arts

Well, Marvel lists Cap as his number one fighter. With or without the shield, he's someone that nobody messes with. Actually, Frank Castle is in the top ten. Deadpool, however, is more than likely the one under Cap. Gambit and a few others have said fighting him is suicide. Heck, DP beat the Taskmaster. I think Marvel just has some amazing hand to hand combatants, which ends up taking those characters a long way.

Also, I thought about this. If Marvel were to have a crisis where Darkseid came and tried to invade Earth, you wouldn't be seeing just one hero come out to meet him, like you do in Superman. You see Captain America, followed by Iron Man, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, War Machine, Wolverine, Colossus, and some of the greatest heroes of all time. Heck, you'd even see Eddie Brock/Venom, Ghost Rider, The Punisher, and anti-heroes come to meet him. Marvel's big key to their success is the fact that although their heroes aren't all powerful, they're true, bona fide heroes of the people. THAT is why Marvel is amazing. Anyone agree?

DP beating Taskmaster near the begining of his own series was BS ... like Taskmaster can't fight a guy if he starts dancing.... total rubbish

Well, DP's comics were more for fun than anything else. However, when he has serious fights, he kicks major arse. He's also 1 of the 2 best characters in X-Men legends 2. They guy they got to voice him was perfect.

ugh. and still the cat gets listed behind shang. will the subordination never end?

captain america is marvel's premier fighter. whether or not he can lose, he's still considered the gold standard when it comes to fist fighting. and i wouldn't rank deadpool second, in the least. too many people have started taking wade too damn seriously since his new book got popular. he's meant to be a joke. yes, people connect with him and he has displayed a serious side, but a major part of who his character was is the fact that he isn't MEANT to be stacked up against other characters. he fights 'em, he wins, he loses, but he's not supposed to be taken as seriously. he's not supposed to be pushed into "leagues," like most heroes are...

^ Read closer. The big part of his persona is that Deadpool is actually VERY deadly. However, he's a goofball. He hardly ever is serious. However, he is very good at fighting. However, let's get back on topic.

What is it that makes the Avengers such a great team?