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as opposed to debating, some of the most fun i've had on this forum has been discussing hypothetical explanaltions for various things. a couple that were particularly memorable: a great discussion regarding the nature and orgin of the phoenix force (thanks to gs and demi and ill!). a great discussion on the nature of the power cosmic and how it was comparable and different from the astro-force (tip of the cap again to ill!)

so, what i'd like to do is to put a couple topics on the table and just have some people express some thoughts on them, and hopefully generate some good discussion. anyway, here goes?

1. what is the nature of darkseid's omega beams and where does it stem from?

2. how does the anti-life equation stack up against the other 'great powers'? ie -- the pf, the IG, the HOTU, starbrand?

3. what is the HOTU and from where did it come?

4. what exactly is the power cosmic and from where does it come -- what is its source?

5. is 'the source' (new gods) the greatest power in all of comics?

6. what came first -- the multiverse or the phoenix force -- think through this one carefully!! ?

i have other topics in mind, but that should suffice i hope to get the ball rolling. just pick one, throw out some random thoughts. there will be very little actual 'evidence' presented in this thread. most will be (hopefully) educated guesses on the topics, and perhaps someone even WILL be able to present certain pieces of evidence i was unaware of to settle certain questions.

so, smart people, have at it!!!!!!

oh, and if you have your own challenging, mind-bending topic, speak out! i for one may at least have a go at it!

I've never cared about Phoenix or the "Phoenix Force" and every-time 'someone' writes an essay on it i just skip it

Doesn't the power cosmic come from Galactus.... and it's due to him surviving through the end of the last universe and the birth of the current universe... a ton of primordial energy mixed with him and his ship and he cocooned (like a caterpillar) and was reborn as Galactus

I don't really know much about the Anti Life Equation, the Source or Darkseid

HOTU..... for some reason the power of God was just left floating around in space for anyone with a starship to find? .... feckin' stupid!

These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

I hadn't considered that before.... hmmmm.... but why could Superman's heat vision block it? and by that theory there would have to be a Doomsday in every possible parallel universe as the beams failed to kill him.... they also failed to kill Galactus... though he has been shown to exist in various alternate universes through the "What If?" series

Originally posted by Scoobless
I hadn't considered that before.... hmmmm.... but why could Superman's heat vision block it? and by that theory there would have to be a Doomsday in every possible parallel universe as the beams failed to kill him.... they also failed to kill Galactus... though he has been shown to exist in various alternate universes through the "What If?" series

Besides the fact that that was Jobbersied?


Well, in the case of Superman I would assume that the Source intervigned and prevented Darkseid from making that specific merger. Darksied may simply be a servant of (and be granted his power from) the Source and thus can only do what is acceptable to the Source (think Galactus/heral relationship). Superman is obviously key to the "Prime" universe, so his death may not be allowed.

So why couldn't he get rid of Doomsday? Same reason as Superman: Look at the role DD played in the Imperix conflict. His contribution may have been critical for the survival of the "Prime" universe so Darksied was not allowed to remove him .

Again Galactus is a critical being to the Universe's survival so Darksied is limited as to what he can do to him.

cool theory, kahn. i brought up the o-beams because i'd read somewhere that someone thought they were linked to the source. they're not -- or at least if they are, there is a degree of separation (as opposed to the astro-force which is the source made manifest). the o-beams were actually gained by seid when he entered the infinity pit on apokalips. i've always wondered if aybe they weren't a type of . . . odinpower. sounds funny, but there have been many ties to asgard and the 'old gods' that preceded seid and the new gods.

as far as the power cosmic scoob, i've wondered about its connection to the pf. since the pf is the force that created the stars and gave life to eternity and even saved galactus, apparently, isn't the power cosmic then just a manifestation of the pf?

I think that the PF, IG, starbrand, HOTU, and every other "power of creation" object are only different aspects of the same Creation Force (for lack of a better term). Just as you can physically experience an orange in different ways (taste, smell, sight) so too can individuals extablish connections in different ways to the CF.

In Jean Grey's case it was her mutation that allowed the connection, while the Infinitity Gauntlet is simply different path to the same power.

Why do they take different forms? And why do they sometimes show different abilities? I think that they are limited by the pre-concieved notions of thoes who wield them. If you think that the IG will give you the ability to only stop time, then that is the only power you will get. However, if you expect it to grant you god-hood then it will do that.

The different physical manifestations are the result of different beings seeing the same force in different ways. Jean Grey saw the birth/death aspect of it and intrepretated it along the lines of the mythical phoenix. So that is the form it took and the way others see it. The same goes for the other objects.


Galen/Galactus saw the scientific aspects of this Creation Force and thus his "Power Cosmic" follows along thoes lines. The beings who have access to it seem to impose their own limits on it wither they know it or not

Bah. Stupid theories.

Spider-sense wins!

*walks away in shame, realizing this is all over his head*

see what happens when you invite the 'smart' people in . . .

Originally posted by TheKahn
Galen/Galactus saw the scientific aspects of this Creation Force and thus his "Power Cosmic" follows along thoes lines. The beings who have access to it seem to impose their own limits on it wither they know it or not

possibly..... but then what's up with his hunger? I've never known Surfer or Firelord to require food

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

brilliant ...i am truly impressed

Originally posted by Scoobless
possibly..... but then what's up with his hunger? I've never known Surfer or Firelord to require food

Damnit. OK let me think....


In the universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. Matter can be turned into energy and vise vera, but no "new" matter or energy can be created.

This scientific principle files into the face of the Creation Force that quite literally made something out of nothing. Since Galen/Galactus approaches the CF from a scientific point of view, the fact that this source of energy is unlimited might be something that he cannot fundamentally understand (like magic, which he said he doesn't like)

So in order to replace the energy he uses, he must "feed" from "known" sources of energy in the universe. This is a self imposed limitation as he cannot grasp the concept of the unlimited source of energy that the CF could provide.

The Surfer and other Heralds on the other hand where granted their power from an god-like being, Galactus, who seemingly could do anything. Given these circumstances, they could believe that their power was unlimited and thus they do not "need" to feed like Galactus.
Its kind of like how children can accept the existance of magic while adults cannot.

thing is, in marvel, the creation force you're talking about is the phoenix force. which is why i said earlier that to me it seems logical that the power cosmic -- which ss gathers by absorbing the ambient energy given off by stars -- is merely a facet of the phoenix force. galactus has greater control of this aspect than ss does but at the saem time, it seems he actually has LESS control. clearly ss doesn't need to replenish his power, yet g does. that's always puzzled me. is there a reason g is NOT meant to be at full power? why DOES he hunger? i thought that was hypothesized in a book somewhere . . .?

maybe he just smokes cosmic weed and permanently has the munchies

Originally posted by leonidas
thing is, in marvel, the creation force you're talking about is the phoenix force. which is why i said earlier that to me it seems logical that the power cosmic -- which ss gathers by absorbing the ambient energy given off by stars -- is merely a facet of the phoenix force. galactus has greater control of this aspect than ss does but at the saem time, it seems he actually has LESS control. clearly ss doesn't need to replenish his power, yet g does. that's always puzzled me. is there a reason g is NOT meant to be at full power? why DOES he hunger? i thought that was hypothesized in a book somewhere . . .?


Yeah, but not only is the Creation Force the same thing as the phoenix force, but also the IG, the Starbrand, the Power Cosmic ect. They are just different aspects it as they are shaped by the people who wield them and come into contact with them.

I think that the way individuals come to desplay control of it depends on their own understanding of the universe. Galactus has to spend a lot of energy to keep Abraxes at bay. He hungers because part of him is still humaniod and believes that if you spend energy doing something, then you have to consume energy to replace it. He cannot fully comprehend all of the aspects of the CF that would sustain him and so he turns scientific sources of energy in the physical universe.

Galactus keeps himself from being at full power because he subconsciencely limits himself.

Surfer is a little different. While he was also a humanoid and feels the physcological need to eat to survive, he was also granted his power by a "higher" being. So while part of him knows that he doesn't need to eat in order to live (part of being granted super powers comes with an ability to disregard normal limitations) he too subconsciencely forces himself to feed.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Yeah, but not only is the Creation Force the same thing as the phoenix force, but also the IG, the Starbrand, the Power Cosmic ect. They are just different aspects it as they are shaped by the people who wield them and come into contact with them.



Not so.

The energies of creation, the Big Bang are literally the Phoenix Force. Each universes Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all that exists in a universe, the life energy that brings a reality about. Objects like the IG tap into a universes power, thats something very different.

On that note the Power primordial is stated in old bios to be energies direct from the Big Bang, which would in fact connect it to the Phoenix Force also.

I wouldnt be surprised if the StarBrand was the Phoenix Force under a different guise. Wielders of it just like avatars of the Phoenix Force have also been referred to as "StarChilde" The Phoenix form as we know it only came about via Feron, before that it was just literally the power of creation that touched and lived within all.

I could be wrong but the power cosmic is an ability, not a power source in itself by my understanding. An ability to tap into and manipulate ambient cosmic energies. The power cosmic is just a name given to the ability by Galactus an ability he himself got as stated after he was transformed by the energies of creation, the Phoenix Force.

As for the HOTU, ive always wondered if this power was connected to the M'kraan crystal, which also has been referred to as HOTU. Who knows?

I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)

The creation of a Galactus like being is something that X-men Forever suggested happens every creation cycle so its certainly a possibility.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)


I could see that. The only thing is I thought that that was what the Celestials were for. And Galactus' method seems too impercise. I mean he has almost destroyed the earth several times and it has been deemed worthy by the Celestials to survive.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I could see that. The only thing is I thought that that was what the Celestials were for. And Galactus' method seems too impercise. I mean he has almost destroyed the earth several times and it has been deemed worthy by the Celestials to survive.

The Celestials as stated in X-men Forever are tools to seed genetic potential across the universe, with the end result being a race which will evolve into beings which will replace the fundamental forces and so keep the whole creation cycle going.

While its true that the Celestials do come back every few thousands years to judge their work, who is to say Galactus' work isnt an additional quality measure? Phoenix itself manifests within avatars to help evolution along as well, so they all could be working towards one common goal.

His repeated attempts could be further tests down the line to ensure humanity really is the race thats got the future task of bringing about the end. It doesnt have to stopat one test and if they were destroyed then he'd know they really werent up for the task.

Who knows.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Who knows.


Stan Lee?

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

Actually, you could use this theory to explain probably any superpower.

Everett's "many worlds" hypothesis was an alternate explanation for quantum-mechanical behavior. Quantum mechanics deals with probabilities. Infinite probabilities. The Silver Surfer, for example, could really be influencing quantum wavefunctions, seeking and splicing into place the desired probability-result (or parallel reality), no matter how remote. "Power cosmic" is just the term cosmic entities use when talking about this ability.

I understand this is how the Scarlet Witch now operates.

Superman can fly because he is able to invoke that particular probability/reality where all the atoms in his body vibrate in the same direction at the same time.

Banner turns into Hulk because his subconscious has found and spliced into place that probability/reality where virtual particles "solidify" out of the quantum foam, forming 100s of lbs of muscle mass.

The Human Torch, tactile telekinesis, you can go on and on: each power is a result of engaging the right reality, no matter how remote the probability.

Why do some powers come as themes; for example, why does Spider-Man have a spider's powers? Being bitten by the radioactive/geneered spider kicked into gear Parker's subconcious ability to influence quantum wavefunctions. Why spider powers? Well, the event was triggered by being bitten by a spider: there was also emotional impact.

How is all this done? I'm tempted to say "psionically," but this is just a fancy word for "psychic," and sometimes erroneously used in parallel with "mental."

A more neutral term would be "psiconscious," as in, conscious of psi, the term physicists use for the quantum wavefunction (and--coincidently?-- what parapsychologists use for "psychic" phenomena).

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Mindship

Just a thought.

And a damn good one at that. You could use that to explain nearly any superpower, but I tend to accept the explanation that is given in most cases. Its just Darkseid's Omega Effect is so undefined and versatile that it may require such a unique explanation while perhaps Wolverine's powers would not.

This is mostly an exericse in speculation. Any explanation is just as valid as anyother as we don't really have the definitive answers.

Personally, I think it has something to do with wearing underwear outside of your pants.

Originally posted by TheKahn
This is mostly an exericse in speculation. Any explanation is just as valid as anyother as we don't really have the definitive answers.

Personally, I think it has something to do with wearing underwear outside of your pants.

I'll drink to that. beer

Originally posted by Mindship
Actually, you could use this theory to explain probably any superpower.

Everett's "many worlds" hypothesis was an alternate explanation for quantum-mechanical behavior. Quantum mechanics deals with probabilities. Infinite probabilities. The Silver Surfer, for example, could really be influencing quantum wavefunctions, seeking and splicing into place the desired probability-result (or parallel reality), no matter how remote. "Power cosmic" is just the term cosmic entities use when talking about this ability.

I understand this is how the Scarlet Witch now operates.

Superman can fly because he is able to invoke that particular probability/reality where all the atoms in his body vibrate in the same direction at the same time.

Banner turns into Hulk because his subconscious has found and spliced into place that probability/reality where virtual particles "solidify" out of the quantum foam, forming 100s of lbs of muscle mass.

The Human Torch, tactile telekinesis, you can go on and on: each power is a result of engaging the right reality, no matter how remote the probability.

Why do some powers come as themes; for example, why does Spider-Man have a spider's powers? Being bitten by the radioactive/geneered spider kicked into gear Parker's subconcious ability to influence quantum wavefunctions. Why spider powers? Well, the event was triggered by being bitten by a spider: there was also emotional impact.

How is all this done? I'm tempted to say "psionically," but this is just a fancy word for "psychic," and sometimes erroneously used in parallel with "mental."

A more neutral term would be "psiconscious," as in, conscious of psi, the term physicists use for the quantum wavefunction (and--coincidently?-- what parapsychologists use for "psychic" phenomena).

Just a thought.

nice.

back to power cosmic -- ss HAS been shown manipulating the quantum level of the universe, so there is that possibility of which you're discussing.

gs, if galactus was supplied energy by 'creation', (in fact, wasn't he 'saved' by the pf?) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the power g wields is simply a manifestation of the pf? which in turn would make ss's power an extension of that? pf seems to be the 'basest' level. in that sense, all power should be a derivative of it, with varying degrees of separation. power primordial would be another insistence of this. what really IS the difference between power cosmic and power primordial? i don't think there is one. i think it's rather the degree of control the user has over this creation force/universal force and the degree of access he/she has over it.

i seem to recall something about galactus and evolution. i'll have to check up. celestials place is pretty well known and you recounted it well. i do like the notion that g is self-imposing a limit on his powers -- perhaps until he overcomes the 'remaining humanity' left within him? hmmm . . ..?

good stuff so far, gents. plenty to think about.

the anti-life equation, as written in seven soldiers (of victory): mister miracle #3.

the anti-life equation = loneliness + alienation + fear + despair / self-worth / mockery / condemnation / misunderstanding * guilt * shame * failure * judgment
N = Y where Y = hope and N = folly.
love = lies
life = death
self = dark side
self = dark side
self = dark side

how does that stack up against creation-altering forces in both universes? well, it seems like a good way for a reimagined darkseid to gather some plastic people, devoid of any glimmer of a silver lining, to his side. probably doesn't really mean jack, compared to various other forces.

Originally posted by leonidas
nice.

back to power cosmic -- ss HAS been shown manipulating the quantum level of the universe, so there is that possibility of which you're discussing.

gs, if galactus was supplied energy by 'creation', (in fact, wasn't he 'saved' by the pf?) then wouldn't it stand to reason that the power g wields is simply a manifestation of the pf? which in turn would make ss's power an extension of that? pf seems to be the 'basest' level. in that sense, all power should be a derivative of it, with varying degrees of separation. power primordial would be another insistence of this. what really IS the difference between power cosmic and power primordial? i don't think there is one. i think it's rather the degree of control the user has over this creation force/universal force and the degree of access he/she has over it.




Thats what I'm thinking. Maybe on some level the power cosmic, PF, and power primordial are some how connected if not just different aspects of the same fundamental force.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Thats what I'm thinking. Maybe on some level the power cosmic, PF, and power primordial are some how connected if not just different aspects of the same fundamental force.

But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Disappear
the anti-life equation, as written in seven soldiers (of victory): mister miracle #3.

the anti-life equation = loneliness + alienation + fear + despair / self-worth / mockery / condemnation / misunderstanding * guilt * shame * failure * judgment
N = Y where Y = hope and N = folly.
love = lies
life = death
self = dark side
self = dark side
self = dark side

how does that stack up against creation-altering forces in both universes? well, it seems like a good way for a reimagined darkseid to gather some plastic people, devoid of any glimmer of a silver lining, to his side. probably doesn't really mean jack, compared to various other forces.

that's interesting. when orion wielded it, he effortlessly took over the earth, new genesis and apokalips. it's command was so absolute, that orion actually commanded darkseid to kill himself and he was about to before there was an intervention from outside that prevented him. he even used it to destroy the ecruos, a multiversal entity that was devouring the tree of knowledge and was set to destroy all the universes. the ALE was shown to be a source of supreme order. when it was transferred to the ecruos (the source's 'great enemy' and the supreme agent of chaos) the ALE and ecruos sort of cancelled each other and wiped each other out.

the only limit i was able to see to the ALE was that the beings it commanded needed to be living. the ecruos and its demons were . . . outside of life and unaffected. not sure exactly what the term 'living' means as relates to the ALE though . . . while he had it, metron said orion might be the most powerful entity in the universes however . . . for what that's worth.

mignola and starlin (??) had a totally different take on the ALE in cosmic odyssey -- it was actually an entity of ENORMOUS but undetermined power but it destroyed dimensions and realities and was set to destroy the dc universe before it was finally trapped by darkseid et al.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.

More 2-cents worth...

My impression of the Phoenix Force is that it is an archetypal force: a divinely creative force. This would place it a notch or so higher than a psionic/psiconscious force. Why? Building upon my earlier 2-cents worth: psi involves manipulation of quantum wavefunctions, whereas the Phoenix Force actually produces the quantum wavefunctions (ie, gives rise to the underlying quantum "ocean" upon which "roll the waves".

so does that mean the pf is outside causality? sounds as though you are saying the pf is outside all the rules of the game. i'm not sure that's been born out . . .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Leos saying something slightly different, cos we already know that the Phoenix Force is literally the power of creation for Marvel so it isnt an aspect of a fundamental force, it IS that fundamental force which would make things like power primordial and other cosmic power sources of the universe derivatives of the Phoenix Force.

Oh, I get it what he's saying now

Originally posted by leonidas
so does that mean the pf is outside causality? sounds as though you are saying the pf is outside all the rules of the game. i'm not sure that's been born out . . .

It might be better to say it is "transcosmic." It does not follow physical/cosmic laws (including quantum-mechanical), but rather divine principles of existence. Now, what that means is open to interpretation, though some familiarity with mystical schools of thought (eg, Kabbalah, Upanishads) may shed some light.

It would also depend on how far up the archetypal hierarchy the PF is said to go. That is, is it the creative force of the Marvel universe or the Marvel multiverse? It would be safe to say that it wouldn't be the creative force for the entire Ominiverse cuz--DC's possible objections aside--that would mean it is a manifestation of Final archetype, which in mystical literature is generally interpreted to mean God in His highest form that is perceivable, wherein He is perceived as an entity separate from the rest of creation.

Youre starting to sound like me. Youre welcome in my threads anytime Mindship lol

Originally posted by Mindship
More 2-cents worth...

My impression of the Phoenix Force is that it is an archetypal force: a divinely creative force. This would place it a notch or so higher than a psionic/psiconscious force. Why? Building upon my earlier 2-cents worth: psi involves manipulation of quantum wavefunctions, whereas the Phoenix Force actually produces the quantum wavefunctions (ie, gives rise to the underlying quantum "ocean" upon which "roll the waves".


So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?

With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.

Originally posted by Mindship
It might be better to say it is "transcosmic." It does not follow physical/cosmic laws (including quantum-mechanical), but rather divine principles of existence. Now, what that means is open to interpretation, though some familiarity with mystical schools of thought (eg, Kabbalah, Upanishads) may shed some light.

It would also depend on how far up the archetypal hierarchy the PF is said to go. That is, is it the creative force of the Marvel universe or the Marvel multiverse? It would be safe to say that it wouldn't be the creative force for the entire Ominiverse cuz--DC's possible objections aside--that would mean it is a manifestation of Final archetype, which in mystical literature is generally interpreted to mean God in His highest form that is perceivable, wherein He is perceived as an entity separate from the rest of creation.

you're essentially saying what i was saying earlier. your 'placement on the archetypal hierarchy' is MY degrees of separation from a source. it's long been discussed by gs and others (whirly . . .) where the pf originates. gs has shown there are allusions to it being a 'divine source' but nothing conclusive, nor can it be said to be the 'power of god'.

it is very analagous to the source, though i believe there HAS been some on-panel evidence stating that the source truly IS an aspect of 'god'. it's why i asked the question earlier: is the source the single greatest energy in comics?

i suppose the hotu could turn out to be something similar, but so little was explained in regards to it that it is hard to even speculate about its origins.

Originally posted by TheKahn
So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?

With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.

i think the last statement you made is the one most in line with what we know of the pf. in a wanda thread, i asked the question: could wanda create a universe WITHOUT a pf? no one really ever attempted to answer the question. another question might be: could the pf create a universe where 2 + 2 = 3? could wanda alter the universe in such a way to eliminate the pf and make 2 + 2 = 3?

hmmm . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
i think the last statement you made is the one most in line with what we know of the pf. in a wanda thread, i asked the question: could wanda create a universe WITHOUT a pf? no one really ever attempted to answer the question. another question might be: could the pf create a universe where 2 + 2 = 3? could wanda alter the universe in such a way to eliminate the pf and make 2 + 2 = 3?

hmmm . . .


In my opinion, she could and she couldn't.
What I mean by that is that she could create a universe without a PF and where 2 + 2 =3.

However, if you assume that in the main Marvel universe the PF plays a fundamentally important role and that mathmatical priniples that govern it (such as 2+2=4) are key for the universe as we know it to exist, then the universe she could create would different on a basic level.

If she wanted to create a universe similar to the main marvel universe, she would need to create some kind of mechanism to serve the role that the PF serves and the basic rules that govern that universe would have to be very near the same.

So Mindship are you saying that the PF is the actual agent of creation (by that I mean a being made by God for the purpose of bringing the physical marvel universe into existance) or is it mearly a by-product of God's creating the universe (owing its existance more to the way God created the universe rather than being responsible for it)?

With the first it would seem that the PF should be beyond all of the physical and scientific laws of the natural universe and posses a more devine nature.
While the second suggests that it is fundamentally a cosmic force that is defined or limited to aspects of the physical universe.

I am tending toward the first interpretation. But it may be that the complexity of reality at the archetypal level is beyond our ability to describe at the cognitive/verbal level.

you're essentially saying what i was saying earlier. your 'placement on the archetypal hierarchy' is MY degrees of separation from a source. it's long been discussed by gs and others (whirly . . .) where the pf originates. gs has shown there are allusions to it being a 'divine source' but nothing conclusive, nor can it be said to be the 'power of god'.

Yes, your degrees of separation is another way of putting it...and I am very familiar with the discussions regarding the PF between GS, Whirl and others (arguably some of the best debates in all of KMC). As for where it ultimately originates: until Marvel says something defiinitive, I guess it is open to interpretation.

back to this whole darksied shifting different dimensioanl states.. that would have been a truly viable justfication were it not for the fact that everytime he blasts superman, supes claps back with heat vision and they both clash, thus proving that it is a physical thing the OB...but the shifting thing is remeinciscent of that lady in the Hyperion mini who can actually do that. and actually sees every dimension simultanouesly, so if that was the case for darksied it would be totally awesome

The Phoenix Force is impossible, partly because of retcons and inconsistencies throughout Marvel's timeline, and partly because of a simple lack of information... Personally, I see it as more of an external force, as opposed to a multiversal scaled Eternity, (part of EVERYTHING) a force with at least abstract+ levels of power, and possibly even a connection to the omnipotent force of the MU. (since we don't really know if TOAA is truly omnipotent, or if he's just the next step above LT, but that's a whole nother debate)

As to Galactus's hunger, I always thought that he was constantly hungry because he constantly expended massive amounts of energy on keeping Abraxas in check. So a "Full Powered" Galactus would be one that did not have to worry about holding in Abraxas, and would be an entity on the level of Eternity and Death. That's just me though, his full potential is really just speculation.

you're the second person i heard mention the abraxas connection as reasons for his hunger. did you read that somewhere or is that forum speak?

your thoughts echo mine as regards the pf. there's just been too much retconned and too much left . . . unresolved and too many inconsistencies for me to be comfortable really trying to explain the pf and what it is/does. it does make for some interesting discussion though!

and i'm with manjaro re: the o-beams. khan's explanation, while cool, doesn't quite sit well with me for some of the reasons named above. supes heat vision has deflected it (but did not STOP it, it still came after him so supes vision was NOT more powerful, it just caused it to pause for a brief time), ww's bracelets, orion's astro-force. i still liken it to the odinpower in some ways, but it really remains inexplicable in comics.

oh, and diz -- i bet there will come a day when toaa is simply shown to be the servant of some other 'omnipotent being'. ahh, the beauty of comics . . .

I am with you guys as regards to the PF. If you think about it too long your brain starts to hurt. As far as my explanition for the Omega Beams, I just made it up to try and explain how it works so don't put too much stock in it. Perhaps being important to the source allows you (or an attack of your) to attempt to counter what ever Darkseid is trying to do?

that last seems to be mostly true -- at least in supes' case, but i'm not sure about ww. i'm not completely sure of the circumstances, but it has been said on the forum she has deflected it with her bracelets. that means she too is important to the source, or her bracelets powers simply exceed the o-beams power. i'm not a fan of either explanation to be honest . . .

oh, and while we're solving all of comics most intriguing things, anyone have info on wally the godboy, who he is/represents? and any thoughts on what the speedforce really is?

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

Slight problem there my friend , that opens up a whole can of worms due to 'the crisis' and the fact that most of these worlds (unlike marvel) ar4en't populated with dc's heroes.

The power cosmic -

I always considered the power cosmic to be the very basic thing that made up the universe , but it wasn't used by surfer or galactus....more 'manipulated' .

Because if you think about it galactus's power diminishes , (possibly leaking back into the universe ?) and surfer's power is never overtly power using. Such as molecule manipulation , it isn't using the power of 'cosmic' per-say just manipulating it to shift one state into another (or in this case apart heh...)

Originally posted by grey fox
The power cosmic -

I always considered the power cosmic to be the very basic thing that made up the universe , but it wasn't used by surfer or galactus....more 'manipulated' .

Because if you think about it galactus's power diminishes , (possibly leaking back into the universe ?) and surfer's power is never overtly power using. Such as molecule manipulation , it isn't using the power of 'cosmic' per-say just manipulating it to shift one state into another (or in this case apart heh...)

I always thought the power cosmic was an ability and not a power source. Surfer taps into ambient cosmic energy just like everyone else. His power cosmic is the way he can manipulate this energy differently to anyone else. Its an ability deriven from Galactus not a power source in itself.

Interesting thread you've started here.

Let me catch up and I'll join in the discussion.

Oh, and on another note (regarding Galactus's Hunger), did anyone read the comic in which the Abstracts had a meeting and discussed the role of Galactus in the universe, and an agreement was reached between Galactus, Death and Mephisto. I think it was called "The Gathering" or something like that. It was sort of like a preface to the origin of the Silver Surfer story.

Anyway, they all meet before Living Tribunal because Eternity, Death and Mephisto are worried Galactus's role as devourer of life energy infringes on their territories. To appease them, Tribunal ordained that Galactus (at this point, though it was later retconned) would not consume the life energies of sentient beings, but only that of planets suitable of sustaining life. Galactus then mentions his plans of taking on an apprentice (Surfer) which was discussed with Eon (who appeared in the form of a tree). Mephisto and Death take issue with this, so Tribunal allows them to make addendums to the terms of Galactus's role in creation. Death's request is that Galactus's hunger is never satiated and he will always need to consume the life sustaining energies of planets (and in so doing, would destroy more planets and cause more death), and Mephisto simply asked for the ability to torment the soon to be created Surfer (whom Eon had a signifigant role for in future events of the universe).

The agreement is reached, Tribunal waves his hand, instills the hunger in Galactus, and the meeting is adjurned. The next panel shows Galactus leaving the meeting and heading for Zenn-La.

This account is from memory (I'm at work and don't have my comics), but I beleive that is originaly why Galactus hungered. What it was changed to for current continuity is unknown to me because Marvel has intertwined A LOT of inconsistencies in their character's histories.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I always thought the power cosmic was an ability and not a power source. Surfer taps into ambient cosmic energy just like everyone else. His power cosmic is the way he can manipulate this energy differently to anyone else. Its an ability deriven from Galactus not a power source in itself.


That would make alot sense. But hasn't it been referred to that Galactus' gives a "portion" of his Power Cosmic to his Heralds (I may be mistaken)?
You explanation could also explain his hunger. If he uses so much energy to keep Abraxsis at bay, he may not be able to gather the quantity of energy he needs in the same manner as the Surfer (he may need a larger source of energy).

Originally posted by TheKahn
That would make alot sense. But hasn't it been referred to that Galactus' gives a "portion" of his Power Cosmic to his Heralds (I may be mistaken)?
You explanation could also explain his hunger. If he uses so much energy to keep Abraxsis at bay, he may not be able to gather the quantity of energy he needs in the same manner as the Surfer (he may need a larger source of energy).

That's actually pretty good , but let's turn everything on it's head for a second . What if the power cosmic is floating energy . but the ability to harness it is an extremely large and complex procedure . Eg galactus gives surfer a 'fraction' (IE:the basics) and because their is enough of this ambient energy surfer believes he is 'godliek' .

Originally posted by grey fox
That's actually pretty good , but let's turn everything on it's head for a second . What if the power cosmic is floating energy . but the ability to harness it is an extremely large and complex procedure . Eg galactus gives surfer a 'fraction' (IE:the basics) and because their is enough of this ambient energy surfer believes he is 'godliek' .

Ok, so would that mean that the Power Cosmic isn't a type of energy that he can consume to survive but only manipulate for desired effects?

Originally posted by TheKahn
Ok, so would that mean that the Power Cosmic isn't a type of energy that he can consume to survive but only manipulate for desired effects?

Possibly both , i have another theory. Galactus consumes planets 'life energies' which in turn sustain him , but as i earlier said what if this life force diminishes (or is let out in what could be considered cosmic flatulence) and becomes cosmic energy. This would make sense since galactus is usually the main person to deal with the stuff .

i think it's pretty widely accepted that both the ss and g and all other inherently 'cosmic types' are merely energy manipulators. gs is absolutley correct in saying ss absorbs and manipulates ambient (ie pre-existing) cosmic energy. i think this is also what wielders of the power primordial (the elders) also do. g, as a result of his connection with the creation force, has an intimate knowledge of this energy and so can wield it for awesome effects. in changing ss, he allows ss a glimpse of this control and allows him to control a fraction of it as well. the elders may exceed ss's level because they've been manipulating it longer and like g have come to have intimate knowledge of these cosmic energies.

power cosmic may be viewed as a command over the PHYSICAL laws of the universe -- from galactic to quantum levels. a power cosmic wielder can command all these things and everything in between. but magic will cause trouble because it lies OUTSIDE the sphere of these physical laws. in contrast, something like the source -- the creative force on dc -- grants control over not only the physical laws, but ALL laws as it is the force that allows ALL laws to come into being -- ie it is the foundation of everything that follws. the same may possibily be said of the pf in marvel, though it is more closely associated with psi abilities, rather than magical abilities for some reason.

as regards g's hunger -- i still don't know the root cause, if ill's description has been retconned, what the relationship between his hunger and abraxas is. it seems like a curse, but placed on him by himself or some outside agent, i don't know.

Phoenix used to have some very strong magical ties in Excalibur.

Oh, and with skilled manipulation, it's been shown that the Power Cosmic can both overwhelm and substitute magic. Galactus has consumed magical realms and Surfer has manipulated PC to enhance spells with Dr. Strange.

Originally posted by leonidas
thing is, in marvel, the creation force you're talking about is the phoenix force. which is why i said earlier that to me it seems logical that the power cosmic -- which ss gathers by absorbing the ambient energy given off by stars -- is merely a facet of the phoenix force. galactus has greater control of this aspect than ss does but at the saem time, it seems he actually has LESS control. clearly ss doesn't need to replenish his power, yet g does. that's always puzzled me. is there a reason g is NOT meant to be at full power? why DOES he hunger? i thought that was hypothesized in a book somewhere . . .?

Maybe it's because Galactus is a far more powerful being than his heralds.
The heralds may be able to replenish what they use simply because it is a far smaller portion of a whole and can be "refilled" a lot easier.

Galactus as a whole may require far more energy to do grander things, and can't replenish his energy in the same way, thus requiring him to consume the life energy of planets.

For example, a calculator and a laptop. Both can do calculation. A calculator can be powered by solar energy. A laptop can do the same and a whole lot more, but uses far more energy doing so. It also needs a far more powerful battery or a constant connection to a wall outlet.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Maybe it's because Galactus is a far more powerful being than his heralds.
The heralds may be able to replenish what they use simply because it is a far smaller portion of a whole and can be "refilled" a lot easier.

Galactus as a whole may require far more energy to do grander things, and can't replenish his energy in the same way, thus requiring him to consume the life energy of planets.

For example, a calculator and a laptop. Both can do calculation. A calculator can be powered by solar energy. A laptop can do the same and a whole lot more, but uses far more energy doing so. It also needs a far more powerful battery or a constant connection to a wall outlet.

it's a point well taken, av. but why JUST galactus? why don't other cosmics need to replenish?

and you're right ill, g HAS been able to manipulate magic, but not without effort. i think his ties to the creation force would allow for him to manipulate even magic, given that the creation force/pf is ALSO responsible for magic. perhaps the physical world overlays the magical? so his control of the top layer is enormous but it takes more effort -- and he's less skilled -- manipulating the 'undercurrent'?

just speculating . . .

av, what about thoughts on the speed force?

Originally posted by leonidas
it's a point well taken, av. but why JUST galactus? why don't other cosmics need to replenish?

and you're right ill, g HAS been able to manipulate magic, but not without effort. i think his ties to the creation force would allow for him to manipulate even magic, given that the creation force/pf is ALSO responsible for magic. perhaps the physical world overlays the magical? so his control of the top layer is enormous but it takes more effort -- and he's less skilled -- manipulating the 'undercurrent'?

just speculating . . .

av, what about thoughts on the speed force?

speed-force is ......it's difficult.

Their is no real way to describe it other then an otherworldly force which buffers ,protects and bestows super speed to it's users.

Perhaps it is like the gamma radiation thing , only certain people/genetic makeup can access the speed-force which in turn hyper speeds someones molecules allowing them to move insanely fast.

good enough. i'll do a little checking up.

Originally posted by Mindship
More 2-cents worth...

My impression of the Phoenix Force is that it is an archetypal force: a divinely creative force. This would place it a notch or so higher than a psionic/psiconscious force. Why? Building upon my earlier 2-cents worth: psi involves manipulation of quantum wavefunctions, whereas the Phoenix Force actually produces the quantum wavefunctions (ie, gives rise to the underlying quantum "ocean" upon which "roll the waves".

IMO the phoenix force = Thomas Aquinas's Prime mover, i.e. the basis of his three way Cosmological Argument. This along with Spectre, Zauriel and other divine beings from with D.C. universe is one of the few examples of transcendent characters that exist in comicdom.

Every other Superpower can be explained by hyper Spatial Nano tech that interacts with the 'normal' 3 Dimensional universe. These are beyond empirical observation due to being 'folded up' in the further 6 dimensions of space and time. The cosmic beings of the respective universe probably have a greater understanding of higher dimensions and therefore how to manipulate these technologies. IMO What we see as 'Energy control' is just the 3 Dimensional reflection of Hyper dimensional manipulation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I always thought the power cosmic was an ability and not a power source. Surfer taps into ambient cosmic energy just like everyone else. His power cosmic is the way he can manipulate this energy differently to anyone else. Its an ability deriven from Galactus not a power source in itself.

Hmm...

What exactly is meant by "cosmic energy?" Are we talking about the high-energy, high-speed hydrogen nuclei which come zipping down into the atmosphere? Is this what the Surfer feeds on/manipulates? Or is "cosmic" just the label for any energy found out in the cosmos? In other words, does "cosmic" describes the energy by origin (like "solar" energy), or by substance (like "light".

Also...what's everyone's take on "magic?" Personally, I don't like it, it's a plot device which should be left in little kid fairy tales.

Once one gains the ability to manipulate Space/time on a Planck level (The level of the quantum foam Mind sip ) any thing is possible from exotic matter creation to time anomaly's.

One could even change the natural order of the universe and how we perceive time i.e. things deteriorate from order to chaos. This effect is governed by the Shape of space time and creates what we know as the unfolding of time. If one can control this effect, making an object appear to move faster would be child's play. This could explain the speed force.

As everything is generally the vibration of energy through space/time, by manipulating one you can theoretically change the other. We know that negative energy and gravity can change space-time, therefore the nano devices mentioned in my previous post would probably be able to wield these energies.

What created these devices is anyones guess ? It could be some advanced 10 dimensional being that has comparable Omnipotent power. It may have been the prime mover .... i.e. G.S.'s phoenix force. Maybe God/Source/Yahweh/Presence/Phoenix Force or what ever other transcendent beings, want comic characters to evolve beyond the restrictions of conventional physics. By achieving control of these technologies it may be possible to rid the universe of the Natural and Moral evils that plague existence.

Any way i wont say anymore .... wait for my comic which will be published in the year 2000 and 'good 1'

B.T.W. String theory Owns quantum mechanics !!!!!!!

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Once one gains the ability to manipulate Space/time on a Planck level (The level of the quantum foam Mind sip ) any thing is possible from exotic matter creation to time anomaly's.

One could even change the natural order of the universe and how we perceive time i.e. things deteriorate from order to chaos. This effect is governed by the Shape of space time and creates what we know as the unfolding of time. If one can control this effect, making an object appear to move faster would be child's play. This could explain the speed force.

As everything is generally the vibration of energy through space/time, by manipulating one you can theoretically change the other. We know that negative energy and gravity can change space-time, therefore the nano devices mentioned in my previous post would probably be able to wield these energies.

What created these devices is anyones guess ? It could be some advanced 10 dimensional being that has comparable Omnipotent power. It may have been the prime mover .... i.e. G.S.'s phoenix force. Maybe God/Source/Yahweh/Presence/Phoenix Force or what ever other transcendent beings, want comic characters to evolve beyond the restrictions of conventional physics. By achieving control of these technologies it may be possible to rid the universe of the Natural and Moral evils that plague existence.

Any way i wont say anymore .... wait for my comic which will be published in the year 2000 and 'good 1'

B.T.W. String theory Owns quantum mechanics !!!!!!!

Wouldn't it be M-theory?

Scifi author Stephen Baxter, in his "Xeelee Sequence" stories, postulated a race of beings so advanced that they could change the constants of our universe by precisely unfurling the compactified dimensions.

I have a character which I have written some short stories about (one actually got published!) who can partially manipulate the quantum foam.

Likely, it is the wave of far-future tech. But if universes are fractal, then even that technology just scratches the surface.

As for archetypal power: IMO, this is power which involves evolution of Consciousness rather than technology, and in the end will surpass anything "mere machines" can muster.

Originally posted by Mindship
Wouldn't it be M-theory?

Scifi author Stephen Baxter, in his "Xeelee Sequence" stories, postulated a race of beings so advanced that they could change the constants of our universe by precisely unfurling the compactified dimensions.

I have a character which I have written some short stories about (one actually got published!) who can partially manipulate the quantum foam.

Likely, it is the wave of far-future tech. But if universes are fractal, then even that technology just scratches the surface.

As for archetypal power: IMO, this is power which involves evolution of Consciousness rather than technology, and in the end will surpass anything "mere machines" can muster.

There's no empirical data to suggest so, unless you've experience some form of mysticism ?

Many worlds is not a very popular theory, as it makes nothing certain .... there is no evidence to my knowledge to suggest that one can become a 'Quantum obsever' !!!!!!

True the tech is far into the future .... but maybe a race as advanced as the celestial has manipulated ailen and the human gene pool to the point where this tech begins to respond to our unconscious desires. I.e. the psionics maybe our minds utilising this advance technology. I think Brusiek speculated about something similar to this in his Superman tale ; Secret identity. This would also explain the meta and X genes. The analogy of the god wave, and the mutuation of beings by radiation my be a metaphor of this process

P.S. i would love to read you're short story, and what powers could the quanum foam give you???

By M theory I was referring to "membrane" or "brane" theory, which seeks to unite all the variations of string theory by postulating "membranes" instead of strings (at least, that's how I understand it).

And yeah, mysticism Is what I was referring to regarding archetypal power (but I realize that That is not everyone's cup o' tea).

Regarding my story: the quantum foam aspect plays a very minor role (eg, through subnanotech, she is able to modify the inertia of her body to achieve flight). The story is really about alienation and redemption. Plus, if I directed you to the website, then you'd know my name and I'd have to destroy your country. But I appreciate your asking. One of these days I may post a character profile (y'know, in one of those make-up-your-own-superhero threads).

Basically, I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying: with future tech, we will likely be able to replicate a lot of superpowers...but this wont be something, I'm afraid, which will happen in our lifetime or even our grandchildren's lifetimes.

Originally posted by Mindship
By M theory I was referring to "membrane" or "brane" theory, which seeks to unite all the variations of string theory by postulating "membranes" instead of strings (at least, that's how I understand it).

And yeah, mysticism Is what I was referring to regarding archetypal power (but I realize that That is not everyone's cup o' tea).

Regarding my story: the quantum foam aspect plays a very minor role (eg, through subnanotech, she is able to modify the inertia of her body to achieve flight). The story is really about alienation and redemption. Plus, if I directed you to the website, then you'd know my name and I'd have to destroy your country. But I appreciate your asking. One of these days I may post a character profile (y'know, in one of those make-up-your-own-superhero threads).

Basically, I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying: with future tech, we will likely be able to replicate a lot of superpowers...but this wont be something, I'm afraid, which will happen in our lifetime or even our grandchildren's lifetimes.

I don't think anyone knows what the hell the M stands for. I've heard it means everything from Mother to magic.

I agree .... the only way it will happen soon is if we get a 2001 Space odyssey scenario. Or we meet pseudo aliens, via a computer simulation so advance that it can realistically recreate the development of the universe on a atomic level.

Anyway I wasn't really talking about real life, i was refering to creating a more realistic edge on comics by using the more complex ideas of 'Popular science'. M theory, Quantum mechanics, Negative energy, Dark matter and Nano tech could be used to explain nearly all super powers, and all most of those 'impossibilities' that occur.

I wont say any more as i to plan to eventually write, and i cant really copy write my ideas.

Lets just say, get ready for Star Wars meets the Ultimates !!!!!

to settle a few anxts. WW did deflect the O-beams. most recently in the batman/superman issue where darksied came back to earth to claim kara, and supes had to drive him in the source wall

who knows since darksied once had beef with the olympians and the amazons im sure she might have even done it in the past

personally I look at the speed force the way the Wildstorm U explains the bleed as basically the circulatory system of the multiverse. picturing our multiverse as a giant multi celled organizm. each cell would represent a universe, and the cell wall or the protoplasmic sac that the cell is in, that prevents the "cell" from leaking out would be the "speed force"..

thats the energy that separates timelines, etheral planes, alternate realites, the microverses. and different dimensions altogether, and the fluid that all floats around in would be the....i dont know the great void or something. so its merely a matter of attuning to the right vibrational frequency to pierce the speed force wall to wherever you wanna go, thats why all the speedsters, wally especially, basically do a more complex version of teleporting. plus in that JLA arc where those 5-d imps were poised to destroy the universe with thier battle jay garrick said to flash that the SF is actually the lower wall of the 5th-D'sion.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
I don't think anyone knows what the hell the M stands for. I've heard it means everything from Mother to magic.

I agree .... the only way it will happen soon is if we get a 2001 Space odyssey scenario. Or we meet pseudo aliens, via a computer simulation so advance that it can realistically recreate the development of the universe on a atomic level.

Anyway I wasn't really talking about real life, i was refering to creating a more realistic edge on comics by using the more complex ideas of 'Popular science'. M theory, Quantum mechanics, Negative energy, Dark matter and Nano tech could be used to explain nearly all super powers, and all most of those 'impossibilities' that occur.

I wont say any more as i to plan to eventually write, and i cant really copy write my ideas.

Lets just say, get ready for Star Wars meets the Ultimates !!!!!

Why cant you copyright your ideas? Are you writing an original tale but with franchised characters? If your characters are original, there are ways you can safeguard them.

First of all, copyright laws say as soon as an author completes a work and puts his name to it, it is copywrit. Also, I used to send out copies of my stories with a return envelope. This way when the rejected story got back to me, I had it in a sealed, dated envelope.

I've always liked when comics had a more realistic edge. I like all that physics stuff. This is why I have such a prob with "magic."

My stab at "magic" is that it is one of two things.
It may reflect an entirely different way of being psiconscious, ie, of being aware of quantum wavefunctions and thus controlling cosmic energy (ie, all forms of energy found in the cosmos).
Whereas the Surfer or Galactus are attuned to the universe more scientifically (using "laws of physics" to guide their will), someone like Dr Strange approachs this state of consciousness more through feeling. Kinda like left-brain/right-brain. Steve's way of understanding the universe is more poetic; no less accurate, just emphasizing different values.
In effect, power cosmic and "magic" are two sides of the same coin. Each has advantages and disadvantages (or at least thats how it should be, for either to avoid becoming a bonafide plot device).

My other stab at "magic" is Clarke's Law. I think that's been hinted at in some comics (Thor?)

Corollaries to Clarke's laws:

Andy Finkel - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."

Aaron Allston's corollary to Clarke's Third Law; "Any sufficiently badly-written science is indistinguishable from magic."

Langford's application of Clarke's Third Law to science fiction: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device.

Sterling's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced garbage is indistinguishable from magic.

Gregory Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (Foundation's Fear, 1997)
Alternative version: Benford's Modified Clarke Law: Any technology that does not appear magical is insufficiently advanced

cool

Originally posted by Mindship


cool

Here are a couple more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_law#Corollaries

Originally posted by Mindship


My stab at "magic" is that it is one of two things.
It may reflect an entirely different way of being psiconscious, ie, of being aware of quantum wavefunctions and thus controlling cosmic energy (ie, all forms of energy found in the cosmos).
Whereas the Surfer or Galactus are attuned to the universe more scientifically (using "laws of physics" to guide their will), someone like Dr Strange approachs this state of consciousness more through feeling. Kinda like left-brain/right-brain. Steve's way of understanding the universe is more poetic; no less accurate, just emphasizing different values.
In effect, power cosmic and "magic" are two sides of the same coin. Each has advantages and disadvantages (or at least thats how it should be, for either to avoid becoming a bonafide plot device).

My other stab at "magic" is Clarke's Law. I think that's been hinted at in some comics (Thor?)

Agreed, magic is a lazy but necessery option for a good comic.

In my version i've mangled Clarkes law with quantum mechnaics and put a mystical/transcedent spin on it. Im not going to enlighten you at the moment, for the reasons mentioned above. I think the current Ultimates run hinted at Thors powers being simillar to Clarkes law. I also think Magneto once manipulated magic, using the basis of CLarkes Law.

These are some awesome theories. You guys really have done your research. Amazing.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's a point well taken, av. but why JUST galactus? why don't other cosmics need to replenish?

I can't say for all of them, but the Silver Surfer actually DOES need to recharge himself occasionally. He gets his energy from pretty much anything on the EM spectrum, but he has been drained several times before. He can absorb a buttload of energy as well, but he has his limits. So I think that he (though I haven't seen anything to suggest that G is the same way) works from multiple sources. He expends internal cosmic stores (the "power cosmic" to manipulate other forms of energy, like EM radiation. And yeah, I do recall power cosmic interacting with magic before, so they aren't completely opposite each other. (as magic and Q constructs are) Surfer and Galactus both still have weaknesses to magic though.

Originally posted by Dizzle
I can't say for all of them, but the Silver Surfer actually DOES need to recharge himself occasionally. He gets his energy from pretty much anything on the EM spectrum, but he has been drained several times before. He can absorb a buttload of energy as well, but he has his limits. So I think that he (though I haven't seen anything to suggest that G is the same way) works from multiple sources. He expends internal cosmic stores (the "power cosmic" to manipulate other forms of energy, like EM radiation. And yeah, I do recall power cosmic interacting with magic before, so they aren't completely opposite each other. (as magic and Q constructs are) Surfer and Galactus both still have weaknesses to magic though.

IMO all energies within comicdom are linked. Everything from Psionics to magic is an aspect of the same thing. i.e. maybe with different wave lengths. The question that needs to be answered is how many of these energies are sentient / mystical and transcendent.

The wielding of these energies comes down to two ideas;

1. Either all forms are energy are sentient. Only Meta energy wielders are aware of this (On a conscious and unconsciously, depending on the characters power level)and can therefore communicate and direct these energies.

". Or the energy as such doesn't actually exist in a traditional sense. Instead what is explained as energy manipulation, is actually the 3 Dimensional usage of quantum mechanics or advanced Hyper dimensional technology.

What is the energy source that Powers the Hulk ?

I've heard that the gamma radiation only opens a dimension, which not only provides his extra mass but also is the source of his near limitless power. Any ideas what this energy source maybe ?

I think it may be a pocket of 'psionic' energy/particles that is controlled by Bruce Banners ID. This would explain why his strength is derived from his emotional and therefore psychic state. Maybe the extra mass is psionic particles which Bruce's subconscious 'ID' (Look up Sigmund Freud) control on a basic level. As the 'Id' by nature is immature, Bruce can only do basic things with these particles i.e. move them as if they were part of his own body. As Bruce's 'Id' becomes more frustrated the psionic energy controlling the particles becomes more intense, therefore the movement of the particles becomes more violent.

This would also explain the Hulks durability and Healing factor. In other words the Hulk is unaware that he has a subconscious (The ID) form matter manipulation. This power will never develop further, as the Hulk is basically a retard !!!!!!!

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
What is the energy source that Powers the Hulk ?

I've heard that the gamma radiation only opens a dimension, which not only provides his extra mass but also is the source of his near limitless power. Any ideas what this energy source maybe ?

I think it may be a pocket of 'psionic' energy/particles that is controlled by Bruce Banners ID. This would explain why his strength is derived from his emotional and therefore psychic state. Maybe the extra mass is psionic particles which Bruce's subconscious 'ID' (Look up Sigmund Freud) control on a basic level. As the 'Id' by nature is immature, Bruce can only do basic things with these particles i.e. move them as if they were part of his own body. As Bruce's 'Id' becomes more frustrated the psionic energy controlling the particles becomes more intense, therefore the movement of the particles becomes more violent.

This would also explain the Hulks durability and Healing factor. In other words the Hulk is unaware that he has a subconscious (The ID) form matter manipulation. This power will never develop further, as the Hulk is basically a retard !!!!!!!

I'm so glad you asked. Below is a post I initially put in a Hulk thread sometime ago. Hey, GMTA.

"The Hulk's power is ultimately grounded in psionics.

The gamma rays changed those parts of Banner's brain which affected aggressive feelings, behavior and strength--the "fight" part of the fight/flight response. They also skewed his brain's ability to sense the universal psionic field (yknow, the one so many other heroes tap into). When Bruce gets pissed, that ability kicks in, creating an intense, but localized conversion of energy into matter.

The energy comes from the quantum vacuum, a frothing of virtual particles. These ghost particles are empowered psionically. This is where all the Hulk's mass comes from: matter out of the vacuum of space, being adapted by his Fight response. It also provides the virtually unlimited wellspring of energy from him to draw on, as he gets angrier and angrier.

This explains why his pants are nigh-indestructible. The Hulk may be monstrous but he's still human. At a deeply unconscious level, Bruce's modesty is still fractionally intact. As the pants are damaged, they are instantly regenerated (as best as possible), just like the Hulk's body regenerates (only living tissue takes longer cuz it's more complex).

This explains why the Hulk can see astral forms, and why he can always find his way back to where he was created.

Bruce, you psionic maniac you... "

I also would tend to agree with your re-assessment of Superman's power source. I had posted in a "Who can survive a nuke" thread an analysis of solar absorption. In a nutshell, even if Superman were completely naked so he could absorb solar energy with all his skin, at the rate sunlight falls (joules/sq cm), and given the surface of his skin, he would have to absorb solar energy for 500,000 years before he had enough power to counter the explosive force of just one megaton nuke.
Clearly, something more is needed.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm so glad you asked. Below is a post I initially put in a Hulk thread sometime ago. Hey, GMTA.

"The Hulk's power is ultimately grounded in psionics.

The gamma rays changed those parts of Banner's brain which affected aggressive feelings, behavior and strength--the "fight" part of the fight/flight response. They also skewed his brain's ability to sense the universal psionic field (yknow, the one so many other heroes tap into). When Bruce gets pissed, that ability kicks in, creating an intense, but localized conversion of energy into matter.

The energy comes from the quantum vacuum, a frothing of virtual particles. These ghost particles are empowered psionically. This is where all the Hulk's mass comes from: matter out of the vacuum of space, being adapted by his Fight response. It also provides the virtually unlimited wellspring of energy from him to draw on, as he gets angrier and angrier.

This explains why his pants are nigh-inderstructible. The Hulk may be monstrous but he's still human. At a deeply unconscious level, Bruce's modesty is still fractionally intact. As the pants are damaged, they are instantly regenerated (as best as possible), just like the Hulk's body regenerates (only living tissue takes longer cuz it's more complex).

This explains why the Hulk can see astral forms, and why he can always find his way back to where he was created.

Bruce, you psionic maniac you... "


I like the emotional connection between his mood and his power and it hints some form psionic involvement. A bit like the link between Gladiators power and his confidence.

Where these psionic particles come from is anyones guess. I like the idea of the quantum foam its definitely an untapped resource in comics. After all its the 'home' of wormholes and Zero point energy as well as the Planck length.

I also agree with connection between the gamma rays, and Bruce's emotional state. Like Doctor Jekyll's potion, the gamma rays act as the catalyst that release the incarnation of the 'ID' i.e. Mr Hyde.

I think the hole scenario can be turned into a metaphor of how humans can misuse Ultimate power. Hulk has a GODLIKE energy source at his disposal. Yet he is incapable of controlling it, blinded by his most basic and instinctual desires. It therefore successfully shows the dangers of embracing the basic and savage nature of our ID.

A couple things about Galactus and the PC:

Does Galactus actually impart power cosmic to his heralds, or does he give them the ability to tap into the power cosmic?

If the former, then that could be the reason that his hunger has grown. IIRC, his hunger didn't increase until after he started making heralds. Perhaps because he is giving of himself his hunger grows because he has less power.

I also wonder if, since the death of Galactus will spell the end of the universe, his hunger is little more than a black hole of unbelievable proportions that is unleashed upon his death. That would explain why, even though Galactus is incredibly powerful, he often doesn't fare too well in combat. Most of his energy goes to keeping this singularity in check. I wonder if that's what brought about the end of the previous universe.

Speaking of which, did anyone see the article last year about how we can survive the end of the universe? It was in Scientific American or something like that.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
A couple things about Galactus and the PC:


Speaking of which, did anyone see the article last year about how we can survive the end of the universe? It was in Scientific American or something like that.

No i havn't, but i'ver read a little about it .... doesn't require 'tunneling' into another universe via a wormhole ?

I like youre theory about Galactus and the the black hole !!!!!!!

Perhaps the gamma explosion that Banner was exposed to created a kind of dimensional rift that has become either localized inside of Banner's mind/body or which his mind can now re-open (were not really sure what kind of bomb it was anyway and his ability to access it may be the result of an unknown latent mutation of Banners as his father was exposed to radiation).

Now somehow the emotions that he was feeling at the time of the exposure (fear, anxiety, anger at being there) trigger the opening of said rift and give him access to an undisclosed amounts of energy and mass. The angrier he gets (or the more his mind resembles the state it was at the time of exposure) then the larger the rift opens. Just a thought.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Perhaps the gamma explosion that Banner was exposed to created a kind of dimensional rift that has become either localized inside of Banner's mind/body or which his mind can now re-open (were not really sure what kind of bomb it was anyway and his ability to access it may be the result of an unknown latent mutation of Banners as his father was exposed to radiation).

Now somehow the emotions that he was feeling at the time of the exposure (fear, anxiety, anger at being there) trigger the opening of said rift and give him access to an undisclosed amounts of energy and mass. The angrier he gets (or the more his mind resembles the state it was at the time of exposure) then the larger the rift opens. Just a thought.

IMO its very similar to my original theory .... (no offense), but i think you're missing the point about Stans Lees intentions about the Hulk.

I've heard that Lee was trying to emulate the Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde story of the Victorian era. The story mirrors the Victorian perspective on the human Psyche, by depicting Sigmund Freud's Super Ego suppressed by chemicals and therefore creating an out of control unreasonable monster, in the form of Mister Hyde. The Id incarnate.

Also, although you have explained where the additional matter and energy originate from, you have failed clarified how Bruce Banner is able to control these factors. Large amounts of energy and matter, rarely ever form coherent systems such as living cells. They usually collapse into simple structures such as Suns or Black holes, such is the chaotic nature of the universe.

Sorry for the criticism but this is a debate forum, i did love your quantum perspective on the omega effect.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
No i havn't, but i'ver read a little about it .... doesn't require 'tunneling' into another universe via a wormhole ?

I like youre theory about Galactus and the the black hole !!!!!!!
Yeah, or some such stuff. It also talks about being able to weild energy on planetary and galactic scales, and the amount of energy required to accomplish such a feat. Interesting read...

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
IMO its very similar to my original theory .... (no offense), but i think you're missing the point about Stans Lees intentions about the Hulk.

I've heard that Lee was trying to emulate the Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde story of the Victorian era. The story mirrors the Victorian perspective on the human Psyche, by depicting Sigmund Freud's Super Ego suppressed by chemicals and therefore creating an out of control unreasonable monster, in the form of Mister Hyde. The Id incarnate.

Also, although you have explained where the additional matter and energy originate from, you have failed clarified how Bruce Banner is able to control these factors. Large amounts of energy and matter, rarely ever form coherent systems such as living cells. They usually collapse into simple structures such as Suns or Black holes, such is the chaotic nature of the universe.

Sorry for the criticism but this is a debate forum, i did love your quantum perspective on the omega effect.


Oh, it cool. No offense taken .
Sorry, I didn't see your post before but I'm thinking you're on the right track. He would need some way to control/manipulate the energy and mass he was recieveing.

How about this: Could the Hulk be in contact with a patron deity like Juggernaut? This could explain the control over the added energy and mass as it would be the actions of another being. Perhaps Banner's bravery at the time of the explosion or his uniquely screwed up mind was enough to catch this deity's attention and Hulk was made his exemplar.

Originally posted by TheKahn
My opinion was always that Kal-El was genetically altered by his father before he was sent to earth. The matter energy conversion you explained may be what Jor-El altered Superman to take advantage of. I just have a hard time seeing a standard kryptonian body being able to regulate such processes just by being exposed to yellow sunlight.

Or an alternate theory may be that Kryptonians were on the verge of evolving a way of connecting to the source (similar to the New Gods) at the time of their destruction. We know from the Phantom Zone Projector that their science as advanced enough to be able to open up portal to other dimensions. Superman's exposure to yellow sunlight may have been only the catalysts that finally established his connection. This could explain the extra energy he seems to have as well as explain how he was able to block the Omega Effect. and punch through space and time?

Superman is just plain nutzo powerful

Originally posted by TheKahn
How about this: Could the Hulk be in contact with a patron deity like Juggernaut? This could explain the control over the added energy and mass as it would be the actions of another being. Perhaps Banner's bravery at the time of the explosion or his uniquely screwed up mind was enough to catch this deity's attention and Hulk was made his exemplar.

I love the concept, although i think the Hulk is more of a Punnishment than a reward .... The Cosmic DEITY abstract known only as the Super Ego creates the Hulk, the living embodyment of man's missuse of power, and its embracement of the ID.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
I love the concept, although i think the Hulk is more of a Punnishment than a reward .... The Cosmic DEITY abstract known only as the Super Ego creates the Hulk, the living embodyment of man's missuse of power, and its embracement of the ID.


Maybe the deity is a real dick.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Speaking of which, did anyone see the article last year about how we can survive the end of the universe? It was in Scientific American or something like that.

I never saw that article. I wonder if it talked about the same thing Stephen Baxter dramatized in his scifi novel "Ring." The most advanced race in the universe built an immense doorway into another universe (we're talking lightyears across), through which all the other civilizations could escape (although they werent running from a Big Crunch; nonetheless it would still accomplish the same end).

Originally posted by TheKahn
He would need some way to control/manipulate the energy and mass he was recieveing.

The control could be subconscious/psiconscious. After all, Freud was right when he said the mind is like an iceberg: most of it is unseen but nonetheless more potent than our conscious mind.

Originally posted by Mindship
The control could be subconscious/psiconscious. After all, Freud was right when he said the mind is like an iceberg: most of it is unseen but nonetheless more potent than our conscious mind.

I didn't know that ... see its all fitting into place !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mindship
I never saw that article. I wonder if it talked about the same thing Stephen Baxter dramatized in his scifi novel "Ring." The most advanced race in the universe built an immense doorway into another universe (we're talking lightyears across), through which all the other civilizations could escape (although they werent running from a Big Crunch; nonetheless it would still accomplish the same end).

I'm reading a Baxter called "Exultant" at the moment

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I'm reading a Baxter called "Exultant" at the moment

Baxter aint the best when it comes to developing characters. But he is outstanding when it comes to integrating the latest scientific theories into Big Ideas, Ideas which in past works typically span most of Space and Time.

Xeelee Sequence (I think "Ring" is his best work, of those I've read)
Manifold Series

Lemme know how "Exultant" turns out.

Originally posted by Mindship
Baxter aint the best when it comes to developing characters. But he is outstanding when it comes to integrating the latest scientific theories into Big Ideas, Ideas which in past works typically span most of Space and Time.

Xeelee Sequence (I think "Ring" is his best work, of those I've read)
Manifold Series

Lemme know how "Exultant" turns out.

I agree and I liked "Ring" also I will matey

coupla things.. Lee actually created hulk as a homage to frankenstein not jekyll and hyde., tho it is easy to make that connection. with regards to superman, maybe this sounds weird, but i think supes IS actually absorbing the amounts of solar energy that Mindship mentioned and even beyond, cuz that would explain why he projects a skin level nigh impenetrable aura, just picture static electricity, you rub your shoes on the carpet fast enuff and you'll be able to generate a static charge.

i believe this is how supes absorption works, his body is basically a powerplant for raw energy, and his individual molecules absorb energy so rapidly, that after his body gets the energy needed for sustenance the excess is converted into waste that makes its way upward to his skin, thats why is invulnerbality seems to be constant,(unless there is magic, kryptonite, or red solar enuergy is around) cuz the outward energy is being contantly replaced by a fresh batch..i dont know i could be wrong..

as for the hulk its quite likley that his extra mass comes from hyper space, and that the gamma radiation just gave his cellular structure the ability to open microspcopic apertures in his body to allow energies to flood in from hyperspace,( which he does pscionically) or it could be in tru hyper space fashion that every possible version of Banner's body exists in different dimesnions, possibly pocket dimensions in his own psyche that exists independently from real world space...THAT WOULD CERTAINLY explain why he has the yet unexplored potential to transform into soooooooooooooo many different hulks and it WOULD CERTAINLY explain why once upon a time banner was able to separate from the hulk altogther and still maintain two different bodies.. so im thinking that banner has the subconcious ability to shift around his other-dimensional selves while still maintaining his 616 mind. and to take it a step further, every single banner that exists in every single reality probably are just time sharing the bank of all these hulk bodies that reside in the higher planes and dont even know it.

Originally posted by manjaro
coupla things.. Lee actually created hulk as a homage to frankenstein not jekyll and hyde., tho it is easy to make that connection. with regards to superman, maybe this sounds weird, but i think supes IS actually absorbing the amounts of solar energy that Mindship mentioned and even beyond, cuz that would explain why he projects a skin level nigh impenetrable aura, just picture static electricity, you rub your shoes on the carpet fast enuff and you'll be able to generate a static charge.

i believe this is how supes absorption works, his body is basically a powerplant for raw energy, and his individual molecules absorb energy so rapidly, that after his body gets the energy needed for sustenance the excess is converted into waste that makes its way upward to his skin, thats why is invulnerbality seems to be constant,(unless there is magic, kryptonite, or red solar enuergy is around) cuz the outward energy is being contantly replaced by a fresh batch..i dont know i could be wrong..

as for the hulk its quite likley that his extra mass comes from hyper space, and that the gamma radiation just gave his cellular structure the ability to open microspcopic apertures in his body to allow energies to flood in from hyperspace,( which he does pscionically) or it could be in tru hyper space fashion that every possible version of Banner's body exists in different dimesnions, possibly pocket dimensions in his own psyche that exists independently from real world space...THAT WOULD CERTAINLY explain why he has the yet unexplored potential to transform into soooooooooooooo many different hulks and it WOULD CERTAINLY explain why once upon a time banner was able to separate from the hulk altogther and still maintain two different bodies.. so im thinking that banner has the subconcious ability to shift around his other-dimensional selves while still maintaining his 616 mind. and to take it a step further, every single banner that exists in every single reality probably are just time sharing the bank of all these hulk bodies that reside in the higher planes and dont even know it.

All true Jaro

I attribute Supes powers to be more of a subconscious mental/natural ability. The sunlight is simply a catalyst for the rest of his power base. I don't see it as any different than Storm eating a slice of pizza. While the pizza gives her energy once digested...it doesn't give her the power to control the weather directly.


Supes takes in sunlight, it's stored in his cells, and then subconsciously converted into whatever he needs. Whether it may be flight, Super hearing, or freeze breath. If it was just redirected sunlight, he wouldn't exhibit many of his abilities.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I attribute Supes powers to be more of a subconscious mental/natural ability. The sunlight is simply a catalyst for the rest of his power base. I don't see it as any different than Storm eating a slice of pizza. While the pizza gives her energy once digested...it doesn't give her the power to control the weather directly.


Supes takes in sunlight, it's stored in his cells, and then subconsciously converted into whatever he needs. Whether it may be flight, Super hearing, or freeze breath. If it was just redirected sunlight, he wouldn't exhibit many of his abilities.

I dont disagree, the problem that Mindsip and i were trying to solve is the fact that the suns radiation alone doesn't provide enough energy. Its just not powerful enough.

Originally posted by manjaro
coupla things.. Lee actually created hulk as a homage to frankenstein not jekyll and hyde., tho it is easy to make that connection. with regards to superman, maybe this sounds weird, but i think supes IS actually absorbing the amounts of solar energy that Mindship mentioned and even beyond, cuz that would explain why he projects a skin level nigh impenetrable aura, just picture static electricity, you rub your shoes on the carpet fast enuff and you'll be able to generate a static charge.

i believe this is how supes absorption works, his body is basically a powerplant for raw energy, and his individual molecules absorb energy so rapidly, that after his body gets the energy needed for sustenance the excess is converted into waste that makes its way upward to his skin, thats why is invulnerbality seems to be constant,(unless there is magic, kryptonite, or red solar enuergy is around) cuz the outward energy is being contantly replaced by a fresh batch..i dont know i could be wrong..

as for the hulk its quite likley that his extra mass comes from hyper space, and that the gamma radiation just gave his cellular structure the ability to open microspcopic apertures in his body to allow energies to flood in from hyperspace,( which he does pscionically) or it could be in tru hyper space fashion that every possible version of Banner's body exists in different dimesnions, possibly pocket dimensions in his own psyche that exists independently from real world space...THAT WOULD CERTAINLY explain why he has the yet unexplored potential to transform into soooooooooooooo many different hulks and it WOULD CERTAINLY explain why once upon a time banner was able to separate from the hulk altogther and still maintain two different bodies.. so im thinking that banner has the subconcious ability to shift around his other-dimensional selves while still maintaining his 616 mind. and to take it a step further, every single banner that exists in every single reality probably are just time sharing the bank of all these hulk bodies that reside in the higher planes and dont even know it.

While I would still debate just how much solar energy Superman can absorb per unit time (given the rate solar energy falls on Earth per sq cm, and the surface area of his skin), I really like your Hulk explanation as to where all the different Hulk versions come from. Well done.

Isn't giving serious scientific discussion to nonsense a blast?

Here is one to debate about. If Superman had wasted most of his reserves fighting Doomsday, had NO mental processes working, and was kept out of the sun while he was dead...how is it that his body was still invulnerable?

Cadmus couldn't penetrate his body even after death to clone Superboy...they had to get creative...

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Here is one to debate about. If Superman had wasted most of his reserves fighting Doomsday, had NO mental processes working, and was kept out of the sun while he was dead...how is it that his body was still invulnerable?

Cadmus couldn't penetrate his body even after death to clone Superboy...they had to get creative...

I propose that--like with a human being--it took time for all his cells to die. Some residual energy remained. And so great was his living invulnerability that even in death, this residual, slowly receding energy was too much for Cadmus.

balloon

Originally posted by leonidas
in the past, i've read META-ATP as K-ATP, but your theory soudns similar to others i've read. i don't think you need to go into hyperspace though. if you assume his bioelectric field envelops each individual cell, each cell would be able to withstand 1000s of times more energy conversion than our regualr cells. throw on top of that the fact that kryptonians are bio-engineered to begin with and that they are generally viewed to be 'physically perfect' (well beyond regular humans) and that perhaps their bodies are simply more efficient (as well as more capable) of energy conversion than our own, and i think biology alone can be used to explain his powers. don't forget too, that krypton was a massive planet, and even at base strengths kryptonians are FAR stronger than humans.

100s of times more efficient. nigh-indestructible cells courtesy of invulnerability that extends to the cellular level. a base level of physical power well beyond our own.

also consider the advances in mental development kryptonians have made -- both science-wise (intelligence) and tp-wise (pure mental abilities). torquasm-vo may simply be an offshoot of the tactile telekinesis that would explain so many things. perhaps his heat vision is simply one more offshoot of a developing competence in the area of mental prowess.

I disagree Leo. To my knowledge there is nothing (and there never will be) in biological diversity that can withsatnd the immense pressures and temps of the matter to energy conversion. We're talking about the amounts of energies realeased when Anti matter comes into contact with 'ordinary' matter. The gamma rays alone will kill anything biological, therefore i hypothesise that there must be some form of extra dimensional interactions. Not only to protect his cells from the energy conversion, but to also to create the conditions needed to collapse matter into pure energy.

As we know, string theory predicts that our universe is one of many (maybe infinite) branes, that are floating and expanding into 11 dimesnional hyperspace. Its theorised that the conditions and laws of physics of each of these universes maybe completely diffrent from our own. One of these various universe may even cause the collapse of matter into pure energy.

As mentioned before by manipulating space, and effecting the the Force Fundamental one can efffect the conditions of any universe. Its not hard to imagine the Kryptonians creating such technology and therefore siphning the immense energies of the physical universe.

What is percieved as supermans bioelectric aura, is actually an echo of Hyper spatial particles/technologies interacting with Supermans 3D body. These extra dimensional nano devices can account for all his powers.

I.e. when we see Supes flying, the nano devices are just dragging his body via hyper space. His super strength is cellular level hydraullics working via Hyper space. His invunerability is the same Hyper spatial devices bonding his bio molecules more tightly than any form of electro magnetic field. The enrgy provided for these interactions is siphoned off the matter to energy conversion that also exists in Hypert Space.

I think Supes powers are psionic. Hence Superboys tactile TK!

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I think Supes powers are psionic. Hence Superboys tactile TK!

True .... but i belive that all exsotic (Sorry spell checker is not working) energies and forms of sentient/trascendent/mystical matter are actually the 3D echoes of AI Hyper Dimesnional tech. Like Hoyles (It probably isnt Hoyle's theory) theory that photons travelling through the vacuum are actually vibrations from Hyper space. What we percieve as Forces and energies, are actually Extra Dimensional interactions. Tacktile T.K. is nothing more than the mental controll of sophisticated hyper dimensional robots. Supes 3D mind just perceives it as 'mind over matter'.

I know im wrong but it sounds cool, and its theorectically more plausible than energies controlled by the mind.

Its about time we put a universally comprehendible theory to the mysterious 'Strength Force' (Discovered by Wickerman) !


When characters use their strength to mysteriously increase their durability and balance. (E.G. Doomsday isnt sent flying into the North Pole, everytime Supes punches him in metropolis). The ability to manipulate this power varies from opponent to opponent.

E.G. one minute the Hulk can withstand hits from Moljnir, the next time he is getting beaten up by the Thing.

Another example of the 'Strength Force' in action, is when characters use their immense strengths to defy the laws of physics and lift seemingly impossibly massive objects.

Nah... He is able to interact with the fabric of reality through the control of fundemetal forces using psions. The psions serve the same role as your hyperdimensional robots.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Nah... He is able to interact with the fabric of reality through the control of fundemetal forces using psions. The psions serve the same role as your hyperdimensional robots.

I take its psions = the fundamental particle of the psionic force ?

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
I take its psions = the fundamental particle of the psionic force ?

psions are to mental energy what gravitons are to gravity. So yup!! They are a theoretical subatomic particle that interacts with the other subatomic particles changing the nature of reality through altering all fundemental forces.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
psions are to mental energy what gravitons are to gravity. So yup!! They are a theoretical subatomic particle that interacts with the other subatomic particles changing the nature of reality through altering all fundemental forces.

More 2-cents worth.
Personally, what I don't like about postulating psions as the quanta of psionic energy is that, IMO, it smacks too much of a "business as usual" approach to physics. "Here's a force, here's its particle, here's what it does." Too much of how we understand things now, when perhaps we oughta be thinking "outside the box."

Consider: when we think of telekinesis we tend to imagine (in this case) psions being emitted from point A (the brain), traveling through space and time in a nice classical/Newtonian manner, until it reaches point B (the target). This is not consistent with TK/PK experiments that have been done, going all the way back to Rhine's experiments at Duke University. What has been consistent in all experiments (at least as far as I'm aware) is that physical factors (eg, distance, mass/shape of target, number of targets) don't affect results so much as psychological factors (eg, motivation, fatigue). Therefore, I don't think a Newtonian approach is the way to go with psionics.

An alternative might be this, returning to my "psiconscious" approach.
You see a cup on a table. Comprising the cup are its trillions upon trillions of atoms, all vibrating, but we don't notice the vibrations cuz it's all random in all directions: it all cancels out. However, quantum mechanics says there is that infinitesmially small probability that all the cup's atoms will vibrate in the same direction at the same time, in which case the cup would move in that direction.

Telekinesis is simply the invoking of that extreme probability. There is no energy going from point A to point B. Rather, the consciousness of the TKer, being aware of quantum wavefunctioning and therefore all probabilities, is able to locate and bring to the fore that extremely rare situation, where all the atoms vibrate in same direction at same time.

The one "drawback" (?) to this approach is that it implies a Cosmos where Consciousness is the foundation of reality, not physical matter/energy. It implies an "essence before existence" philosophy, not an "existence before essence" one. On the other hand, if you're gonna postulate hypothetical psions or psionic energy, is Consciousness that much more of a stretch.

In any event, this approach has the added advantage (I think) of not necessarily requiring a huge power source to do things. Superman is not lifting the mountain per se--the unified vibrations of the mountain's atoms are doing that. All Supes is doing is psiconsciously locating and invoking the extreme improbability where the mountain's atoms behave that way. Solar energy might just be giving his brain cells that "extra kick" required for large-scale psiconscious operation.

Again, I find it an interesting coincidence (?) that psi is the term physicists use for the quantum-wavefunction and what parapsychologists use for psychic phenomena.

Originally posted by Mindship
More 2-cents worth.
Personally, what I don't like about postulating psions as the quanta of psionic energy is that, IMO, it smacks too much of a "business as usual" approach to physics. "Here's a force, here's its particle, here's what it does." Too much of how we understand things now, when perhaps we oughta be thinking "outside the box."

Consider: when we think of telekinesis we tend to imagine (in this case) psions being emitted from point A (the brain), traveling through space and time in a nice classical/Newtonian manner, until it reaches point B (the target). This is not consistent with TK/PK experiments that have been done, going all the way back to Rhine's experiments at Duke University. What has been consistent in all experiments (at least as far as I'm aware) is that physical factors (eg, distance, mass/shape of target, number of targets) don't affect results so much as psychological factors (eg, motivation, fatigue). Therefore, I don't think a Newtonian approach is the way to go with psionics.

An alternative might be this, returning to my "psiconscious" approach.
You see a cup on a table. Comprising the cup are its trillions upon trillions of atoms, all vibrating, but we don't notice the vibrations cuz it's all random in all directions: it all cancels out. However, quantum mechanics says there is that infinitesmially small probability that all the cup's atoms will vibrate in the same direction at the same time, in which case the cup would move in that direction.

Telekinesis is simply the invoking of that extreme probability. There is no energy going from point A to point B. Rather, the consciousness of the TKer, being aware of quantum wavefunctioning and therefore all probabilities, is able to locate and bring to the fore that extremely rare situation, where all the atoms vibrate in same direction at same time.

The one "drawback" (?) to this approach is that it implies a Cosmos where Consciousness is the foundation of reality, not physical matter/energy. It implies an "essence before existence" philosophy, not an "existence before essence" one. On the other hand, if you're gonna postulate hypothetical psions or psionic energy, is Consciousness that much more of a stretch.

In any event, this approach has the added advantage (I think) of not necessarily requiring a huge power source to do things. Superman is not lifting the mountain per se--the unified vibrations of the mountain's atoms are doing that. All Supes is doing is psiconsciously locating and invoking the extreme improbability where the mountain's atoms behave that way. Solar energy might just be giving his brain cells that "extra kick" required for large-scale psiconscious operation.

Again, I find it an interesting coincidence (?) that psi is the term physicists use for the quantum-wavefunction and what parapsychologists use for psychic phenomena.

Its also impossibe to accelerate the particles to speeds rivalling Superman and the FLash. Particles need energy to be acclerated, and one cannot just create energy. This is why i prefer my Hyper space theory, 'the mover' has acsess to all energy sources through out time and space. I.e. if you need energy, one teleport via Hypersapce to an ancient quasar, or an exploding sun.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Nah... He is able to interact with the fabric of reality through the control of fundemetal forces using psions. The psions serve the same role as your hyperdimensional robots.

you said what i was gonna say!! psions explain why no ebergy/matter conversion is necessary.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Its also impossibe to accelerate the particles to speeds rivalling Superman and the FLash. Particles need energy to be acclerated, and one cannot just create energy. This is why i prefer my Hyper space theory, 'the mover' has acsess to all energy sources through out time and space. I.e. if you need energy, one teleport via Hypersapce to an ancient quasar, or an exploding sun.

but that still doesn't answer how they are capable of moving at nearly infinite speeds -- in any event many many multiples of c.

Originally posted by leonidas
you said what i was gonna say!! psions explain why no ebergy/matter conversion is necessary.

What is moving the psions then ? .... things dont move by themselves.

Originally posted by leonidas
but that still doesn't answer how they are capable of moving at nearly infinite speeds -- in any event many many multiples of c.

There is the infinitesimal probability that--because of quantum fields--space could inflate, like it did at the start of the Big Bang, moving (so goes theory) at many times the speed of light.

The Surfer (eg) psiconsciously triggers, and literally rides (inside) a wave of space. This is why his power is "cosmic." For all intents and purposes, it is "magic" which brings all the cosmos within his grasp.

Originally posted by leonidas
but that still doesn't answer how they are capable of moving at nearly infinite speeds -- in any event many many multiples of c.

Its as easy as ABC, with a Hyper Space tech.

Wormholes mean almost instant Acceleration, and no Time dilation problems

Space Time warpage allows you to achieve F.T.L. speeds.

All of this is possible with Hyper D tech !

Originally posted by Mindship
There is the infinitesimal probability that--because of quantum fields--space could inflate, like it did at the start of the Big Bang, moving (so goes theory) at many times the speed of light.

The Surfer (eg) psiconsciously triggers, and literally rides (inside) a wave of space. This is why his power is "cosmic." For all intents and purposes, it is "magic" which brings all the cosmos within his grasp.

Or you can do it artificially with Hyper D tech .... the decission is you'res ?

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Its as easy as ABC, with a Hyper Space tech.

Wormholes mean almost instant Acceleration, and no Time dilation problems

Space Time warpage allows you to achieve F.T.L. speeds.

All of this is possible with Hyper D tech !

don't wormhole avoid the need to move? i thought they were essentailly the same thing as folding a map. ss never opens wormholes. warping space is the more generally accepted explanation i think.

still, neither of your explanations answers the questions of how he travels through time.

and what moves the psions? why couldn't his brain simply be enough? same way graviton moves . . . gravitons. psions are just a form of energy after all.

Originally posted by leonidas
still, neither of your explanations answers the questions of how he travels through time.

When you start doing things at the quantum level (however it's done), nonlocality occurs not just with space but also with time. Laws of physics, as we know them at the classical level, simply do not apply.

Every entity in the universe has a quantum field/wavefunction, which extends (with decreasing probability) throughout all of space and time. The reason you and I, for example, are where we are is because, given the rules for existence in our universe, it worked out that the greatest probability for our existence is right where we are (I hope that made sense).

Quantum theory actually says (for example) that a mouse could suddenly, instantly, be teleported to the surface of the sun and survive there for a week. The odds of this happening are so immense that the universe would have to be a trillion trillion times its current age for it to happen. But it is not impossible.

The Surfer can move through time because he can phase-shift his wavefunction, change the probability, move the wave-crest of when he is to some"place" else in time.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
What is moving the psions then ? .... things dont move by themselves.

Conciousness, at this point it gets pretty philosophical.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Conciousness, at this point it gets pretty philosophical.

'Use the Force Luke' .... I see that as a cop out. Surely there is a solar energy transfer between the particles and the KATP.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'Use the Force Luke' .... I see that as a cop out. Surely there is a solar energy transfer between the particles and the KATP.

The solar energy acts like a battery allowing Supes psychic energy to generate his consciousness at a greater range than most other beings. Think of him as the world service and a normal persons ability to interact with psions as a baby monitor radio in a bedroom.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The solar energy acts like a battery allowing Supes psychic energy to generate his consciousness at a greater range than most other beings. Think of him as the world service and a normal persons ability to interact with psions as a baby monitor radio in a bedroom.

Which is basically what i was saying .... The Sun still doesn't provide him enough power ! Therefore we have took look to an alternate energy source. Psions do though prevent the need for space. (Although i prefer the use of Hyper Space rather than psions)

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The solar energy acts like a battery allowing Supes psychic energy to generate his consciousness at a greater range than most other beings. Think of him as the world service and a normal persons ability to interact with psions as a baby monitor radio in a bedroom.

Which is basically what i was saying, although we still dont have a sufficient energy source. Psions do prevent the need for Hyper Space,although i prefer the more realistic scientifically plausible explanation.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Which is basically what i was saying, although we still dont have a sufficient energy source. Psions do prevent the need for Hyper Space,although i prefer the more realistic scientifically plausible explanation.

Psions are a real scientific theory Yahs, albeit a rather out there one.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Psions are a real scientific theory Yahs, albeit a rather out there one.

Yes .... but M theory is more respected !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Yes .... but M theory is more respected !

yes it is, however psionic theory is more esoteric and less scientific. In some ways it is purely assumption based on a known fact "The uncertainty principle", and that the behaviour of particles changes when they are observed. The psion is thought to cause this observational change. Something is definately interacting. So lets call it a psion.

Originally posted by Mindship
When you start doing things at the quantum level (however it's done), nonlocality occurs not just with space but also with time. Laws of physics, as we know them at the classical level, simply do not apply.

Every entity in the universe has a quantum field/wavefunction, which extends (with decreasing probability) throughout all of space and time. The reason you and I, for example, are where we are is because, given the rules for existence in our universe, it worked out that the greatest probability for our existence is right where we are (I hope that made sense).

Quantum theory actually says (for example) that a mouse could suddenly, instantly, be teleported to the surface of the sun and survive there for a week. The odds of this happening are so immense that the universe would have to be a trillion trillion times its current age for it to happen. But it is not impossible.

The Surfer can move through time because he can phase-shift his wavefunction, change the probability, move the wave-crest of when he is to some"place" else in time.


Could that explain all of Surfer's powers? If he can alter the laws of probablity then he could produce just about any effect in the physical universe he wants. From matter manipulation to healing an injured persons could it just be him altering the probablity of what he wants to happen until it does.

Or is there something else I'm missing?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
yes it is, however psionic theory is more esoteric and less scientific. In some ways it is purely assumption based on a known fact "The uncertainty principle", and that the behaviour of particles changes when they are observed. The psion is thought to cause this observational change. Something is definately interacting. So lets call it a psion.

This is very simillar to Minsips theory ..... Its V cool any way !!!!!!! Its given me a lot of ideas for my soon to be bestselling comic. Where do you think the psion originates from ???

Originally posted by TheKahn
Could that explain all of Surfer's powers? If he can alter the laws of probablity then he could produce just about any effect in the physical universe he wants. From matter manipulation to healing an injured persons could it just be him altering the probablity of what he wants to happen until it does.

Or is there something else I'm missing?

Yess ... in other words every character in comic dom is just a derivative of the Scarlet witch !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Yess ... in other words every character in comic dom is just a derivative of the Scarlet witch !


I KNEW IT!
But that might be a good explanation for Darksied's Omega Effect as well.

As for where the psion orginates for something different maybe there is a religious explanation for it. It could be that by God (or whoever you may beleive in) in creating humans in his image gives us as of now an latent or undeveloped (at least consciencely) ability to manipulate the physical world. As science cannot readly explain or identify this "devine" ability, so its effects are attributed to psions.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I KNEW IT!
But that might be a good explanation for Darksied's Omega Effect as well.

As for where the psion orginates for something different maybe there is a religious explanation for it. It could be that by God (or whoever you may beleive in) in creating humans in his image gives us as of now an latent or undeveloped (at least consciencely) ability to manipulate the physical world. As science cannot readly explain or identify this "devine" ability, so its effects are attributed to psions.

# Sigh #

I can't wait to hear an explanaition that doesn't involve some form of mysticism

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Conciousness, at this point it gets pretty philosophical.

It's philosophical in the real world. But in the highly magical/metaphysical superhero universes, I thinketh it be fair game.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Yess ... in other words every character in comic dom is just a derivative of the Scarlet witch !

pretty much

The thing is, if you're gonna have universes where entities like The Presence or TOAA exist, then mysticism/consciousness is implied in the weave of that universe and perfectly legit.

In real life though, if superpowers are gonna appear in the foreseeable future, it will likely be by way of hypertech.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
# Sigh #

I can't wait to hear an explanaition that doesn't involve some form of mysticism


Oh, sorry
You'll most likely have to wait for Mindship if you want a really impressive and technical explantion.

book

psions have also been called KI (chi) is some instances. 'philosophers' have considered it to be the 'life energy that flows through everything'. perhaps like ss, supes has also an established connection with this creationary force? not hard to believe considering he is supposed to be so important to the source. perhaps he is in essence wielding 'divine' power.

not sure about the reasons why thermodynamics would be broken -- psions would simply be a different type of energy that supes changes . i think whirly was saying solar rad would be the sort of fuel that would allow him to convert this 'divine energy' into psions that in turn let him do whatever he wants.

or maybe there's something genetic that allows them to access this energy-converting ability. i mean we don't understand our own genome, and at its heart biology may be even LESS understood (evolution of life from viruses?? IS there a neural correlate for consciousness?) than cosmology. just how many chromosomes DO kryptonians have . . .?

Originally posted by leonidas
psions have also been called KI (chi) is some instances. 'philosophers' have considered it to be the 'life energy that flows through everything'. perhaps like ss, supes has also an established connection with this creationary force? not hard to believe considering he is supposed to be so important to the source. perhaps he is in essence wielding 'divine' power.

not sure about the reasons why thermodynamics would be broken -- psions would simply be a different type of energy that supes changes . i think whirly was saying solar rad would be the sort of fuel that would allow him to convert this 'divine energy' into psions that in turn let him do whatever he wants.

or maybe there's something genetic that allows them to access this energy-converting ability. i mean we don't understand our own genome, and at its heart biology may be even LESS understood (evolution of life from viruses?? IS there a neural correlate for consciousness?) than cosmology. just how many chromosomes DO kryptonians have . . .?

* sigh *

The original point i made was that Solar radiation doesnt provide enough 'fuel',. Mindsip and i both believe that supes needs some other higher energy yield process.

The point about Thermo dynamics is that particles cannot move without 'fuel'. One cannot create this 'fuel' by just thinking about it, therefore he needs another source to provide the 'fuel'. I reiterate that the suns radiation is not a suitable source, as it does not provide enough 'fuel'

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
* sigh *

The original point i made was that Solar radiation doesnt provide enough 'fuel',. Mindsip and i both believe that supes needs some other higher energy yield process.

The point about Thermo dynamics is that particles cannot move without 'fuel'. One cannot create this 'fuel' by just thinking about it, therefore he needs another source to provide the 'fuel'. I reiterate that the suns radiation is not a suitable source, as it does not provide enough 'fuel'


my apologies for boring you . . .

and while ONE sun may not provide the fuel necessary, what about all the OTHER stars he absorbs energy from . . .?

and if he's simply altering energy that already exists and is ALREADY in motion, why would it disobey thermodynamics? the sunlight/starlight merely allows him to manipulate energy like any energy manipulator.

Posts I had originally put in another thread...

Just to give this some perspective...

One ton of TNT exploding yields over 4000 megajoules of energy.
One megaton yields over 4000 terajoules: more energy than the whole Earth will use for hundreds of years, at least.

Seems to me, in order to survive a one megaton blast, one would have to counter 4000 terajoules with an equal amount of energy, at least.

Where in God's name do these "nuke survivors" get this much power from? Given the amount of energy which rains down from the sun, per square centimeter, even Superman doesn't have enough skin surface area to absorb this much power.

More Playing With Numbers...

Why pick on Superman?
1. Ask 100 people which superhero can take a nuke, chances are, every one of them will answer "Superman."
2. Unlike those superheroes who rely on "magic" (which, as far as anyone knows, has absolutely no basis in reality), Big Blue's power depends on solar energy, which is very real and can be measured.

Thusly...
- On a sunny day, the amount of sunlight per square centimeter yields 0.1345 joules every ten seconds.
- An adult male has about 1.8 square meters of total skin surface area.
- If Superman were totally naked, he could perhaps absorb about 2500 joules in ten seconds. He needs 1.6 trillion times this amount to counter the energy of a 1 megaton bomb (4000 trillion divided by 2500).
- 1.6 trillion x 10 seconds is about 500,000 years. This is how long Kal El has to sunbathe to absorb enough power to survive 1 (one) "typical" nuclear explosion.

Thank you for your kind attention.

From here it would perhaps be better to assign the solar rad he absorbs a "secondary" position, something which triggers a far more powerful energy source, rather than being the primary energy source itself.

A character I had developed used subnanotech to draw power directly from the quantum foam, ie, by "popping quantum plumes." I imagine many of us are familiar with science's current theories on zero-point energy. Some say it's a pipe dream (which would violate laws of conservation); others say the quantum vacuum holds unimaginable degrees of power which can be utilized as long as an overall cosmic "balancing of the energy books" occurs.

Superman picked the wrong power source.

Let's assume for a minute that Superman is only powered by the sun.
Could you make it work?

"If" Superman is only powered by the sun what could be the alternate mechanism that allows him to absorb more energy of the sun's output? A simplistic example would be how black surfaces absorb more heat than white ones.

Perhaps his body creates some type of attraction with the charged particles in the sun drawing more of the sun's energy to him. Or his body acts as an energy sink that increases the rate of energy apsorbtion.

Any thought?