ROTJ Vader vs ROTS Dooku

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vpokdekjyafmidp
i tihnk dooku wins, but i really dont know

setting is the place where anakin killed dooku

Guy LeDouche
Vader is better with the force. He is stronger. If they Get into a lock Dooku is screwed. If he runs, Vader's got choke. Dooku loses.

DarkNemesis
Dooku dominates Vader. Much better swordsman, and one ounce of force lightning Vader is screwed as hell.

Guy LeDouche
My computer is being screwy so I am posting this so I can see the posts.

Guy LeDouche
Well, force lightning won't help him when he is 2 feet off the ground getting his airway crushed.

DarkNemesis
The way he crushed old ben? LMAO!

Hello Friend
Stop bringing up Old Ben. He was a former Council member who had 20 years to meditate and perfect his use of the force. He might not have been in tip top shape with a saber, but he didn't just lie down and masturbate every day in Tatooine.

But yeah, Dooku's a better swordsman. And has lightning. Vader would pwn him in a saberlock though

ESB - 1138
And Vader wouldn't know how to deflect lighting like Obi-Wan or Mace? The fact is everyone says Vader would lose because Dooku has force lighting. Vader would win this.

DarkNemesis
The things is that Old Ben hasn't proven himself to be better than Dooku at all. And since Vader never crushed his windpipe as easily as Guy LeDouche says Vader will crush Dooku, it is foolish to assume Vader will win simply like that.

And Vader lose because of force lightning? Dookku is also a much better swordsman.

Arker
Dooku would terminate Vader. His lightsaber skill is simply superior to Vader. He could easily break through his defenses, then kill him.

Vader had lost about half of his power, if not more. Even if some people say that Anakin really is stronger than Dooku, do you think that Anakin would still win after he was almost destroyed?

Dooku pwns.

Hello Friend
When was it said that he lost power? As far as I know, he only lost potential.

DarkNemesis
GL in the ROTJ DVD commentary: "Let's face it. Vader is more machine than man and a shell of his former self. ROTS is when you'll see Anakin in his prime."

vpokdekjyafmidp
ah interesting

Hello Friend
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
GL in the ROTJ DVD commentary: "Let's face it. Vader is more machine than man and a shell of his former self. ROTS is when you'll see Anakin in his prime."

Are you sure about that? The ROTJ DVD was released in 1997, 8 years before ROTS was released. I doubt they would have released the name so early, considering the AotC name was only released about a year before the movie was released.

DarkNemesis
1997? Wasn't the OT DVD just released like two years ago? I think you're talking about the VHS.

Hello Friend
Uh... what?

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/return_of_the_jedi/dvd.php

I'm talking about this one.

DarkNemesis
It's VHS: Special Edition though. I'm talking about the DVD, this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00003CXCT/102-6404133-9264101?v=glance&n=130

Arker
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Are you sure about that? The ROTJ DVD was released in 1997, 8 years before ROTS was released. I doubt they would have released the name so early, considering the AotC name was only released about a year before the movie was released.

Well actually, they probably had planned out the basic content of each movie.

EX:
TPM- Obi-Wan in his young, padawan ages has a master that dies against a Sith lord.

Probably something like that.

DarkNemesis
I doubt he and I are talking about the same thing. He is talking about the special edition of ROTJ that came out in 1997, I'm talking about the DVD commentary of the ROTJ DVD that came out just two years ago.

darthsith19
Dooku pwns, he's a Makashi Master, he's alot faster than Vader, and he has better Force powers, and is more than 80% of Sidious.

((The_Anomaly))
I'm not sure if Dooku's more then 80% of Sidious, but he's still a FAR better swordsman then mechanical Vader. Suit Vader lost all is finesse, and raw force power too. Although (I have no proof) but I'd think Vader would be powerful enough to block Dooku's force lightning with his hands (remember it doesn't actually touch you). And even if he couldn't, he could at least block the lightning with his saber as Obi-Wan did in ATOC, Vader is definitely more powerful force wise then AOTC Obi-Wan.

If it was a force battle I'd say its 50/50 between the two, it could go either way.

If it was a lightsaber duel, mechanical Vader gets killed 100% of the time. So since the force battle could go either way, but Dooku would always win the saber duel, I'm giving the fight to Dooku.

Fishy
I really don't see what force powers Vader has on Dooku, even if he could block lightning which we have no prove of Dooku has still shown more powerful feats with the force.

Things that Vader has never matched, perhaps he could have but we didn't see him do it, so that would be a pretty big assumption to make

((The_Anomaly))
Yes, but its logical to assume that Vader would at least be close to Dooku in terms of raw force power. He cant do lightning because of his disabilities, otherwise I'm sure he would be able to, even at 80% of Sidious. So feat(s) are not a good indicator of how powerful someone is ALL of the time. Dooku had a more diverse selection of force powers, but that doesn't mean he was more powerful.

Vader being 80% of Sidious is pretty good, seeing as Sid's could pretty much WTFpwn anyone with the force (in the PT) with the exception of Yoda. 80% of the master of the Sith is pretty good in terms of force power. The argument here is: is Dooku 80% of, or more then Sidious? I'd say no he's not MORE then 80% of Sidious, simply because Anakin was supposed to be amazing, seeing as he's the chosen one. I'm not saying Dooku is weaker then 80% of Sidious, I'm just saying that he's prolly not more then 80% of Sidious. Seeing as Yoda pretty well threw Dooku's force attacks aside like nothing, but struggled (with all his might) to stop Sidious's onslaught. Meaning, there is a considerable difference in power between Sidious and Dooku in force prowess. So just by logic, I doubt if Dooku is more then 80% of Sidious in force prowess. At least he and Vader are about equal. Equal enough for it not to matter all that much.

At any rate, Dooku still wins, simply because even if Dooku isn't stronger then Vader force wise, and they are equal, Vader simply cannot beat Dooku in a saber duel.

Dooku wins.

DiamondBullets
I say Vader. It would be a repeat Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS.

Dooku = Spanish Rapier Fencing

Vader = Samurai Katana Fighting

Dooku's style is better suited for competive sport than a practical combat form. The constant pressure, linear attacks, and superior strength of Djem So would overwhelm Dooku's fancy dancing and wrist-flicking.

Kaithen
How do we know that Doku wasnt faking? I mean he takes out Obi in some seconds and Ani and Obi are euqal.

However we all know that Vader is a slow walking robot. He had trouble standing first time he used his metalic body. I think Dooku is much faster than vader. And he would kill him using his speed.

Hello Friend
Makashi is actually the 2nd most effective form of saber to saber combat.

And Obi-Wan is inferior to Anakin. Anakin was overwhelmed by grief during the duel on Mustafar.

Also, the ROTS novel states that Dooku goes all out at the end of the fight (correct me if I'm wrong).

Kaithen
Meh im not sure about that but one more thing:
Look at dookus supriced face (i love it... No i dont... im not gay)

kamikz
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Makashi is actually the 2nd most effective form of saber to saber combat.

And Obi-Wan is inferior to Anakin. Anakin was overwhelmed by grief during the duel on Mustafar.

Also, the ROTS novel states that Dooku goes all out at the end of the fight (correct me if I'm wrong).

He didn't have much to go on at the end of the fight when Anakin had gone mad and grabbed his arms during the saber lock. Anakin did outmatch Dooku, but it was only this time. Dooku's intention was not to harm Anakin, he could not prevent his death forever, and Anakin surprised him in the end. Any other day, Dooku would pwn him.

Kaithen
big grin

Hello Friend
Originally posted by kamikz
He didn't have much to go on at the end of the fight when Anakin had gone mad and grabbed his arms during the saber lock. Anakin did outmatch Dooku, but it was only this time. Dooku's intention was not to harm Anakin, he could not prevent his death forever, and Anakin surprised him in the end. Any other day, Dooku would pwn him.

Yeah, that's probably true. I'm not sure about the "pwn" part, but Dooku was currently the better duelist.

Anyways, here are my saber rankings as of ROTS

Anakin 9/10
Dooku 9.5/10
Yoda 10/10
Sidious 9.5/10
Mace Windu 9.5/10
Obi-Wan 8.5/10
Drallig 8/10

Sound right?

Kaithen
No u did them ur self :P
10/10 on Yoda?

Darth Traya
Dooku simply dominates Vader. Dooku has more experience, force power, lightsabre power, speed and agility than Vader.

Darth Traya
Meh, I'd put Dooku as the best duelist of the PT era. He uses a form that requires little energy compared to the rest and is designed for Lightsabre combat.

Hello Friend
Fisto was on Drallig's tier, right?

kamikz
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Yeah, that's probably true. I'm not sure about the "pwn" part, but Dooku was currently the better duelist.

Anyways, here are my saber rankings as of ROTS

Anakin 9/10
Dooku 9.5/10
Yoda 10/10
Sidious 9.5/10
Mace Windu 9.5/10
Obi-Wan 8.5/10
Drallig 8/10

Sound right?

I don't really agree with the list. This is what mine would look like. (Considering this is the PT jedi's skills compared)

Anakin: 8.5
Dooku: 10
Yoda: 10
Sidious: 9
Mace: 9.5 - 10
Obi-Wan: 8 - 8.5

Hello Friend
If Anakin and Obi-Wan are so low, then Fisto, Saesee, Drallig, Mundi etc would all score in the 6s, which I feel is a little too low.

kamikz
Well instead of making the lists 1-10 we should make 1-100. That gives alot more space.

((The_Anomaly))
Anakin beat Dooku fair and square. So how is Dooku a 10 with Anakin a 8.5? Unless Anakin is on such higher tier then Dooku in terms of force prowess, which he is not higher then Dooku in terms of force abilities, so how did Anakin win if Dooku was that much better?

Note that Lucas said that Anakin beat Dooku fair and square, Dooku didn't know what was going on so he couldn't have 'thrown' the fight.

darthsith19
Yeah, the list goes more something like this:
Anakin: 9.5
Dooku: 9
Yoda: 10
Sidious: 9
Mace: 9
Obi-Wan: 9
Cin: 8 maybe but it's hard to judge from the 3 second hologram of his duel

Numan
How can you put Kenobi the same as Mace, Dooku and Sidious? How can you put Anakin higher than Mace, Dooku and Sidous? In my opinion Mace is better then all of them in terms of dueling. Yoda is good but he still wasn't as effective as Mace in the films. He was hardly able to create an opening in his duels with Dooku and Sidious. Mace on the other hand was so precise in his duel with Sidous and just didn't make a mistake and was able to find an opening in his duel with Sidious and win. I would say that Yoda, Dooku and Palpatine are all on the same level at 9. Mace would be the only 10. Anakin and ObiWon would both be 8. Then people like Fisto, Drallig, Unduli, Bolq and Grievous etc 7. Then I would give people like Saesee Tinn 6, Mundi 5 and below that people like Colemen Trebor.

kamikz
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Anakin beat Dooku fair and square. So how is Dooku a 10 with Anakin a 8.5? Unless Anakin is on such higher tier then Dooku in terms of force prowess, which he is not higher then Dooku in terms of force abilities, so how did Anakin win if Dooku was that much better?

Note that Lucas said that Anakin beat Dooku fair and square, Dooku didn't know what was going on so he couldn't have 'thrown' the fight.

Lucas said overpowered which I explained about before, that Dooku did not try to kill Anakin but Anakin overcame his defence. If Dooku didn't know a shit he would not try to talk Anakin into using the dark side just kick his ass like he did with Kenobi. You have kept talking about how Sidious faked to Mace but Lucas himself said that Mace overpowered Sidious. And Anakin haden't mastered his style to the fullest degree, but Dooku had. And Dooku's style was much better in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat than Anakin's.

kamikz
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, the list goes more something like this:
Anakin: 9.5
Dooku: 9
Yoda: 10
Sidious: 9
Mace: 9
Obi-Wan: 9
Cin: 8 maybe but it's hard to judge from the 3 second hologram of his duel

Mace and Yoda were leagues above Anakin and Obi-Wan is saber combat. Kit was almost on the same level as Obi-Wan is swordfighting, and Sidious WTFPwned him in seconds. Then he got his ass kicked by Mace then Yoda. So both Yoda, Sidious and Mace (at least the jedi) are leagues above Kenobi and Anakin. And why do you put Dooku on the same level as Obi when Dooku is clearly able to parry strikes from both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, then knock Kenobi out while kicking Anakin away.

Hello Friend
Obi-Wan (ROTS) equal to Kit? lol

They were equal in Deception, before Obi-Wan mastered Soresu.

Arker
DS is saying that Anakin is stronger than Mace, Sidious, and Dooku?
This is how the list really would go:
Anakin: 8.5
Obi-Wan: 8
Dooku: 9
Yoda: 10
Sidious: 9.8
Mace: 9.9

Or something along those lines.

tdtd
I wouldn't give Sidious a 9.8 as his lightsaber abilities have shown to be subpar at best but yea Yoda and Mace are at the top. In fact I would put Dooku on the same level as Yoda and Mace as he was one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in centuries. Either way Dooku would own Vader

Hello Friend
In a saber fight, yes... I don't know about a force fight... Dooku seemed much more of a duelist.

Arker
I gave Sidious a 9.8 because he was beaten by Mace and Yoda who were 9.9 and 10, so he probably couldn't be 9.9 or 10, right?

Kaithen
One fight doesnt explain the fighters skills. I mean sometime u have a good day and sometime u have a bad day, sometime u are faking and sometime u are monsterkilling. Just because Anakin beaten Dooku in ROTS i dont think we can say that Anakin is 10 times better than Dooku. I never solved that puzzle with Dooku and ani if Dooku is faking. Whatever the thing i want to say is just because a person beats another person ONE day it doesnt means that his better than the other person.

Whatever.... I dont think u can say 10 and 9.9 because they arent UBER. I mean in the future of star wars i think the jedis get better. I mean there is better fighters than Yoda or is it?.... maybe in the future of star wars...... WHATEVER!

darthsith19
Well, Kneobi's pretty good, he matched Vader, Sidious is alot stronger but about the same at dueling, Mace wasn't that fast, Dooku's probably the strongest with a blade out of these 4. I was gonna put him at 8.5 but he did match Vader in terms of saber skills, so I gave him a 9.

You think they should be tied? But Anakin beat Dooku, so he has to be stronger in some aspect, and it's not the Force.

Kamkiz, what you say makes sense, except that Dooku had no reason not to kick Anakin's ass, cause he didn't know anything about turining Anakin to the Dark Side, GL said so himself. So if he could have why didn't he kick his ass?

Yoda and Mace leagues above Anakin and Obi-Wan? laughing Obi-Wan did about as good against grievous as Mace did in LOE, Anakin beat Dooku. Obi-Wan's far above Kit, as ROTS shows, they were even in TCD. Dooku didn't outduel Obi-Wan, he took him out with the Force.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by darthsith19
Kamkiz, what you say makes sense, except that Dooku had no reason not to kick Anakin's ass, cause he didn't know anything about turining Anakin to the Dark Side, GL said so himself. So if he could have why didn't he kick his ass?
Dooku definitely wasn't trying his hardest. He was talking almost half of the fight! He underestimated Anakin, so he let his guard down.

Wesker
Originally posted by Hello Friend
Makashi is actually the 2nd most effective form of saber to saber combat.

Really? Is that why it was called the "refinement of saber to saber combat" by the two guys who made it?



And don't forget stupidity. But even with his rage he could not best Obi-Wan at the force push (Remember that scene). Ergo, I have no reason to believe that Anakin at his force height (Not potential, just the height of his trained force powers before becoming mechanical) was better than ROTS Obi-Wan. And that's all really moot, because Dooku easily schooled Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/435/000obithrow9wk1wy2sa.gif

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vader has never shown the ability to just up and forcepwn an alert jedi master while casually backkicking a saber prodigy, and still have the cool left over to drop a walkway on the former.



And it also has plenty of other inaccuracies. For movie canon, we must go first to the movies and only to the movies. Novelisations are bullshit. TPM novelisation says that Qui-gon was on par with Mace Windu, which is a ridiculous and unproven concept. However, we see that in the movie while Dooku did indeed lose to Anakin's clever move, he was not out to kill the young jedi. He -easily- disabled Obi-Wan, someone Anakin could kill only with the greatest difficulty, and yet continued to give ground before and play with Anakin, not utilizing his great advantage of form mastery and force mastery.

Hello Friend
Really? Is that why it was called the "refinement of saber to saber combat" by the two guys who made it?

I consider Vaapad to be the best lightsaber form.

Captain REX
That's an opinion, and moot.

Makashi is the best for saber-to-saber combat. Fact.

Wesker
Exactly. Dooku is the best saber practitioner in the PT era for sheer form dedication and mastery.

Captain REX
With the exception Yoda and Sidious, but that's my opinion as well...

Wesker
Well, neither Yoda nor Sidious were true to saber duelling in and of itself, but they probably could beat Dooku for sheer force knowledge on top of having exceptional duelling abilities.

Captain REX
*shrug*

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