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Takes place on Coruscant.

Who wins the redeemed Dark Lord or... the redeemed apprentice to the Dark Lord?

Round 1: Lightsaber duel
Round 2: Force battle
Round 3: Echani combat

I'm giving all three to Revan, he's a big unknown. But Ulic hasn't done much more then he has, actually he's done less. he stalematted Exar for a small time in a fight and defeated Mandalore, what Revan has done is more impressive and he's seen more action.

I see the same thing happening. In lightsaber combat precog hands the victory to Revan. In force battle, I assume Revan is the superior since Ulic hasn't even shown the ability to use force lightning. In Echani combat... I dont know but it's likely Revan defeated Yusanis in Echani combat, although I am not too sure.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I see the same thing happening. In lightsaber combat precog hands the victory to Revan. In force battle, I assume Revan is the superior since Ulic hasn't even shown the ability to use force lightning. In Echani combat... I dont know but it's likely Revan defeated Yusanis in Echani combat, although I am not too sure.

Precognition doesn't make him invincible, you know. It certainly didn't keep him from realizing that Malak would WTFpwn his ass with a starship. And when has Revan even shown the ability to use Force lightning? We know absolutely nothing of his powers, and that is why he can't be used in these threads. He's a complete unknown.

I don't know about the other two matches, but I'd be prepared to hand the lightsaber duel to Ulic. He defeated a Basilisk-riding Mandalore while having to balance himself on chains, and was unable to touch solid ground. He met Basilisk blaster-fire head-on. Ulic is amazing in saber combat; what has Revan done to merit his status?

Revan used force storm against the Rakatan's when he was searching for the Star Forge. The Rakaan's described it as magic summoning lightning from the sky.

In lightsaber combat how can you say Revan is weaker? He has the benefit of precognition, thus foreseeing Ulic's attacks before Ulic even makes them. Revan was described by Briana in KOTOR 2 as having the ability in battle precog that even Echani seers did not have. He defeated Mandalore in combat too. Yusanis tried to fight him in Echani combat, but Revan beat him in his own game. Revan also defeated Malak in what was described as "an epic lightsaber duel," where Malak was being strengthened by the Star Forge.

No he didn't; it was described as lightning from the sky, which could have been blaster-fire.

zOMG! Precognition! Again; you gravely overestimate the use of this ability. It may allow him to draw out the fight, but I see nothing to suggest that he has enough ability on his own to take out Ulic, although it's presumably a possibility.

He defeated Mandalore, but not while having to run around on top of chains and trying to knock Mandalore out of a Basilisk.

And where's the proof that Revan defeated Yusanis in Echani combat? You were just musing about how that was ''likely,'' but there's nothing supporting it.

Ulic stalemated Exar Kun; now, this wasn't Kun at his peak, but he'd already eradicated the spirit of Freedon Nadd, and blown apart temple walls and Sadow's Sith Wyrm.

Blaster fire fromt the sky. How on earth would that happen? The Rakatan temple prevented all ships from entering its atmosphere, Revan would have no way to call his ships.



I think you meant overestimate, but I know what you mean. However it is still a valid point. Revan was gifted with precognition, an undoubted advantage that Ulic does not possess. How is being able to see your opponent's melee attacks before they make it not give Revan a huge advantage over Ulic.



The battle against Mandalore was an unkown. We have no idea, Mandalore could have gone all liquid snake and get inside a building sized robot. Or Mandalore would have dueled Revan with a simple vibrosword(unlikely, the position of Mandalore would not have been granted to an idiot who would do this). Most likely Mandalore had some surprises for Revan.





Kreia and handmaiden explain how Yusanis was killed. Also if you read the description for "Yusanis" brand, I am hundred percent sure that it says yusanis fell in hand to hand combat against "the Dark Lord".




Eradicated Freedon Nadd, temple walls, and Sadow's Sith Wyrm with a lightsaber? Kun still wasn't at his peak in lightsaber combat.

Revan is a big unknown until KOTOR III but I would give it to him based on what we see from him in KOTOR and based on what we do or do not see from Ulic in Sith Wars.

Ulic has this.

Originally posted by Wesker
Ulic has this.

No he doesn't

Yes, he does. :gay smiley:

And you're a certified Revan fanboy. I wouldn't be surprised if you don't cosplay him at anime conventions.

Why do you think that?

Because he's DAMN good as a duellist, and has a lot more experience in personal combat, stalemating the mighty Exar Kun. Revan has beat... Malak. In under questionable circumstances.

I didn't know you can call being powered by the star forge as a questionable circumstance. Wesker you seem to love The Sith War characters almost as much as IKC. Ulic stalemated a Kun who hasn't even developed his double light saber and his new saber style, so that doesn't say much about his abilities. He's known to be great at light saber combat but you can't say Revan is anywhere below him. In fact, defeating an already powerful Malak, who is being powered by the SF, is more impressive than defeating Kun who hasn't developed his new light saber/technique.

Actually, there's nothing at all showing Malak being powered by the Star Forge itself. Certainly nothing to indicate just how much his power grew or how much it was. The CG scene where he nyxes two jedis could be duplicated by Count Dooku. And at tops, he's a thirty year old Sith lord, so I doubt his mastery is complete. Secondly, the battle was described by others in KotOR II as "epic", and epic implies a LOT of time was needed. We don't know if it was all lightsaber use, force user, both, or even trickery. Could be anything. It's an UNKNOWN.

Forgive me for relying more on tangible, emprical evidence like IKC, but if that makes me a TOTJ fanboy, that's ridiculous. Fanboys don't use evidence and logic, tdtd. Ulic is clearly one hell of a swordsman and fighter. Revan is at best able to beat nonforce sensitives that Ulic would slaughter and contend with and beat Malak. Woot. What a sabergod.

Originally posted by Wesker
Because he's DAMN good as a duellist, and has a lot more experience in personal combat, stalemating the mighty Exar Kun. Revan has beat... Malak. In under questionable circumstances.

I am not denying that Ulic is a good duelist. I am saying Revan is a better duelist. Kun was not too powerful in lightsaber combat at the time. Revan defeated Malak who was at his peak (not to mention powered by the star forge).

Can you show me exactly hwo Kun is "not too powerful in lightsaber combat at the time"? Preferably with scans?

That's a ridiculous assumption.

Originally posted by Wesker
Can you show me exactly hwo Kun is "not too powerful in lightsaber combat at the time"? Preferably with scans?

That's a ridiculous assumption.

I mean that Kun was not at the peak of his abilities. He still hasn't developed the double bladed lightsaber that earned him such repute. We don't know how good really Kun was at the time in lightsaber dueling.


Malak was powered by the Star Forge. There is a lot of proof towards this. Firstly Bastila was struck down thrice and only in the fourth battle did Revan convince her to turn from the dark side. She was being strengthened by the Star Forge (as she explained), and that was why she could keep on coming back. The fact that Bastila and Malak were both Dark Jedi, and they were both on the Star Forge, means they were both being strengthened.

The ancient Rakatan computer in the Rakatan temple stated how the Star Forge's true power was not only creating an indestructible fleet, but also empowering the dark Jedi strong enough to use it. It was a weapon filled with the dark side.

How? Kun didn't become a "saber God" until he invented his new style and the double light saber, so obviously Kun wasn't at the peak of his saber skills when he fought Ulic.

Kun was able to push Vodo to his limits before he ever used a double bladed lightsaber.

Ulic has done two things with a lightsaber that makes him impressive. Defeat Mandalore, stalemate Exar Kun.

We don't know how long his fight with Exar Kun lasted but it sure as hell wasn't long, neither one was able to gain an advantage, but Exar Kun wasn't a lightsaber god at this time like he would become later on. Ulic stalemated a weaker Exar Kun then the god Exar becomes later.

Ulic for the rest fought nobody's people with guns swords and axes... Most of the time with help. How does that really put him above Revan, who did defeat Malak in a fight, perhaps he used the force perhaps he used is lightsaber most likely both.

He did know force lightning, we already had a debate about this in another thread, it couldn't have been a ship and a blaster Faunus? Does a blaster look like lightning from the sky now? Level 3 lightning in the game on the other hand does. So if we have something that looks like the attack that was desrcibed and it couldn't have been a ship then logically it would have been exactly what is said. Lightning. By logical assumptions we can also be very sure he knew force drain and techniques like that. Still you can ignore the latest technique.

the point is Ulic is seen as great because he stalemated a relatively weak Exar in lightsaber combat, compared to the Exar that he would become later. An Exar that was beaten by Vodo, not one that tooled with Vodo.

But he did not defeat Vodo though. Ergo, Ulic tieing Kun does not really put him above Revan.

Also you forget that Revan has his battle precognition along with his Jedi senses, a huge advantage that Ulic doesn't have.



Its called force storm Fishy, just in case you forgot. So Revan did know force storm.

enough, Revan wins

Originally posted by Wesker
Kun was able to push Vodo to his limits before he ever used a double bladed lightsaber.

Actually Janus, he wasn't. Vodo knocks him out pretty fast

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_36_26.jpg

After that Exar draws a second lightsaber and immediately attacks again, he broke Vodo his staff. But Vodo shows no sign of beaten outmatched, just overpowered by the attack. Its like an X-wing taking out the Death Star, in no way is it more powerful, it just had a lucky attack. Vodo was still the master.

Edit: Glentract, that post about Ulic isn't entirely correct.

Exar once went to Osus undetected proclaimed himself a knight got a Sith holocron and killed Odan Urr, Ulic was not present.

Exar also didn't sense Ulic his power all the way from the other side of the galaxy, he followed Nadd his spirit who contacted Aleema (who was near Ulic) at the time.

Originally posted by zephiel7
But he did not defeat Vodo though. Ergo, Ulic tieing Kun does not really put him above Revan.

That's ridiculous. Along that same logic I could say that because Obi-wan can't befeat Dooku that Obi-wan can't defeat Anakin. Just because Exar didn't defeat Vodo doesn't mean that he couldn't have defeated Revan at that point.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Also you forget that Revan has his battle precognition along with his Jedi senses, a huge advantage that Ulic doesn't have.

TPM Anakin had precognition. It's a trait that all Jedi have. Revan's may be slightly above average, but it's not an end all factor.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Its called force storm Fishy, just in case you forgot. So Revan did know force storm.

That's just an in-game level of force lightning, not the same technique that Sidious used. It's not really a force storm, that was just the game description for it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That's ridiculous. Along that same logic I could say that because Obi-wan can't befeat Dooku that Obi-wan can't defeat Anakin. Just because Exar didn't defeat Vodo doesn't mean that he couldn't have defeated Revan at that point.

No tihs argument is actually quite Valid, its assumed Ulic is more powerful then Revan primarily because he stalemated Exar. Exar at this time however has done nothing with a lightsaber that makes him out to be the god he later on becomes. He was beaten by Vodo.



Echani Pre-cog is often described wrong, the pre-cog is supposed to allow people to predict the tide of wars if they just know their enemy well enough. What it does is predict the enemy's his movements basde on the way he fights. Echani study the style and use that to defeat there enemy's, thats what Revan does. Seeing as he got the greatest pre-cog of the Echani at that time possibly ever we can safely say it would give him a pretty big advantage in any fight, as he would know the enemy's movements pretty fast and could predict what they are going to depending on what he's going to do. He could plan an entire fight blow to blow, thats a bit more helpfull then just simple Jedi Pre-cog.



Completely agree with this, no evidence Revan could conjure up a force storm.

Ulic flattens Revan.

proof?

Yeah. God said so.

*Played the God card. Pwned!*

LOL

Originally posted by tdtd
proof?

Buddy I'm the biggest Revan fan to hit KMC since creation and believe me when I tell you that Ulic flattens him.

If you don't believe me read the comics yourself. I'm not about to type of some uber long post on why Ulic would win.

Buddy I'm the biggest Revan fan to hit KMC since creation

*cough*Emperor Revan*cough*

Zephiel is far worse. Emperor Revan posted a lot in times when we just assumed the most logical things about Revan considering what we knew. And allowed those assumptions in a debate.

Nobody's shown conclusive evidence yet.

What Fishy said, you misunderstand the extent of Echani precognition. Echani precognition helps you predict the attacks of your enemies before they even make it. That was partly why Revan is such a devastating duelist. Regular Jedi precognition helps you move faster sure, but very different from Echani precognition.

zephiel, you still have that large quote from Lord Darkstar to respond to.

Glentract, I already did... Besides most of it is just stating some things he has done. It in no way states that he is superior to Revan.

You just answered two small points, there are plenty others. There is still Faunus' point, "now, this wasn't Kun at his peak, but he'd already eradicated the spirit of Freedon Nadd, and blown apart temple walls and Sadow's Sith Wyrm."

And he didn't do anything of that with a lightsaber, and he did both with an amulet. How would that make him a great lightsaber wielder? It was afterall a lightsaber fight between him and Ulic.

And of course I didn't answer all in it, most of it is true. But most of it doesn't make Ulic > Revan.

Edit: Actually most of it isn't true..

Ulic didn't slaughter the Senate, Exar let them live he didn't care about them.

Ulic also wasn't trained by Vodo.. He was trained by Arca. Ulic also never defeated Sylvar, they dueled he stayed alive and then lowered his lightsaber and said he wouldn't fight her anymore.

That post is filled with crap really, Darkstar probably wrote it without having read the comics, or maybe it was a long time since he read it. In any case I would advise you to not use that post anymore, seeing as a lot of it is wrong.

Since when is Revan capable of (specifically) Echani battle precognition just because the Handmaiden thinks he was based on what the echani elders said? She also goes on to say that Echani batlte precognition is so damn uber that certain elders can predict entire wars in advance. Clearly her stance is suspect, as is her information.

I see no conclusive evidence that Revan has it at all.

Right but there is no evidence that Ulic is more powerful either. After playing KOTOR 1, the game makes Revan seem uber powerful, as if he was the chosen one of his time.

Originally posted by tdtd
Right but there is no evidence that Ulic is more powerful either. After playing KOTOR 1, the game makes Revan seem uber powerful, as if he was the chosen one of his time.

Yes there is. Ulic stalemated Exar. Simple as that.

You base your whole argument on Ulic stalemating a weaker, not fullblown saber god/sith magician Kun? Come on.I would put Revan on a higher pedestal just for destroying Malak in the SF, than Ulic beating a weaker than godlike Kun

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes there is. Ulic stalemated Exar. Simple as that.

Ulic stalemated an Exar that was beaten by Vodo.. He didn't stalemate godlike fighter Exar. Exar was good with the force back then nothing indicates he is a lightsaber god at that point...

Ulic stalemating Exar really doesn't mean all that much, if he would have stalemated the Exar that beat Vodo, now that would have been impressive. The exar he stalematted however does not put him above Revan.

Revan's kills:

- Mandalore (A nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Yusanis (Echani master, nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Bandon (Sith Lord apprentice, force sensitive. Circumstances unknown; possibly had help)
- Malak (Sith Lord, force sensitive. Battle described as "epic", but the actual details are unknown. Malak's actual power remains to be substantiated. At best, he can be placed above Dooku and below Bane.)

There's your sabergod.

Ulic pwned Cay, stalemated Exar Kun, pwned Mandalore in one hell of a scenario, and pwned some other ****er who's name I can't recall at this moment. I could get more, but again... I don't have any scans at work.

Ulic didn't pwn Cay, he defeated a Cay that didn't want to fight.

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_23_22.jpg

Just look at that, throughout the entire fight that doesn't exactly last long all Cay does is beg Ulic to stop it and return to the lightside.

He stalemated an Exar Kun that wasn't an impressive lightsaber fighter there. Far weaker then he would become when he destroyed Vodo

Mandalore I agree with impressive fight.

And other people? all the people he killed where nobody's with guns and axes for the rest.. Or some people without a lightsaber...

Now I know logic isn't allowed to be used in debates about Revan anymore...

But logically we know that Revan and Mandalore fought in an honourable fight, because thats what Mandelorian tradition requires. Meaning Revan didn't use the force or a lightsaber but instead used a sword to defeat Mandalore.

Against Yusanis, an Echani wo fights in honourable combat, it would again be a very logical assumption supported by what the Handmaiden says to say that Revan and he fought in honourable combat.

Against Bandon, story wise Revan is the only powerful enough to defeat Bandon and the two people Bandon brings along to help are supposed to fight the two people Revan has with him. Thats what they are supposed to do, gameplay of course can create a different scenario.

Malak his actual power is indeed unknown for a large part, we do know he controlled the Star Forge, the same star forge that ate other weaker people, including people that used to be on the Jedi Council. He ruled over them too, was a ligthsaber prodigy and a fierce front line fighter during two wars. Malak has the experience over Ulic, and even Malak has shown more impressive use of force powers. Just less confirmed people he killed and fought.

agreed

Oh please. When it comes to Revan, you build assumptions on top of assumptions and call it logic and fact. He is an UNKNOWN. Admit this and move on. When KOTOR III comes out, then you can come back and we'll reevaluate this.



I like how you tack on "logically" to your opinion and it somehow is supposed to hold more weight. Fishy, no one says "Revan beat Mandalore in personal combat without using the force to aid him." They say that in the battle above Malachor V, Revan killed Mandalore. That's what they say. They didn't enter into a boxing ring and Revan hit the off switch on his force powers and defeated Mandalore fair and square. He killed him in WAR, and that was still honorable because the Mandalorians seek honorable death in war. Period.



No, it'd be an unsupported assumption to believe that Revan defeated Yusanis fairly and with ease on the word of Brianna alone. She wasn't present.

And keep in mind that the item description of Yusanis' blade describes the battle as "epic" while Brianna insists that he "slaughtered Yusanis where he stood". Which is more plausible given pure melee combat? Are we supposed to make the assumption that Revan trumps years of strict melee discipline without resorting to an unfair more or perhaps even outright being cheap? It's possible that he DID fight and win honorably, but there is nothing reliable to support this, and in the end Yusanis is a nonforce sensitive. Revan had the advantage before he even walked into the fight because he was a jedi.



Prove to me using actual evidence that only Revan could contend with Bandon. And don't give us your "logical" opinion on the battle as it is in game, okay?



Fishy, there is NO proof or evidence showing that there were Jedi Council force users trying to use the Star Forge and absolutely no proof as to how powerful they are even if they DID join the Sith, survive the war, and attempt to control the Star Forge. This is pure conjecture, with no evidence backing it. What you call "logical assumption" I call "wishful and unsupported thinking" and it's getting ridiculous.

No, Malak does not trump Ulic for sheer experience. Malak was barely a jedi knight when the Mandalorian Wars broke out. His force feats are at best on par with Count Dooku. And some jedi took his jaw off because he's just that good.

Face it, Fishy: Revan has no case. The KotOR people have no case. Accept it. Move on.

Well even I would have the energy to go through this all again, you'll just ignore it and throw it away saying its an assumption. Which it of course will always be with Revan thats just the way it works with in game characters. Especially if you don't trust quotes from the characters in game, in which case we could just as well doubt pretty much everything ever said and or done.

And actually Malak doesn't trump Ulic for experience? Where does Ulic have more experience then Malak? Please show me, I'd like to see it because its not there. Ulic also hasn't shown superior force powers to Malak.

and the fights Ulic has had are not impressive save for the one against Mandalore.

Janus, I think you were thinking of Satal Keto.

He stalemated an Exar Kun that wasn't an impressive lightsaber fighter there. Far weaker then he would become when he destroyed Vodo

Why wouldn't Ulic get any stronger after the fight? It's not like that point was the peak of Ulic's strength. And remember that Exar has become much stronger since he lost to Vodo by this point.

But logically we know that Revan and Mandalore fought in an honourable fight, because thats what Mandelorian tradition requires. Meaning Revan didn't use the force or a lightsaber but instead used a sword to defeat Mandalore.

What about the Mandalorian Champion? He believed that fighting a Jedi on the Jedi terms was more honorable then limiting the Jedi's fighting ability. I doubt purely sword combat was the case.

Against Yusanis, an Echani wo fights in honourable combat, it would again be a very logical assumption supported by what the Handmaiden says to say that Revan and he fought in honourable combat.

As with Mandalore, what qualifies as honorable combat?

Against Bandon, story wise Revan is the only powerful enough to defeat Bandon and the two people Bandon brings along to help are supposed to fight the two people Revan has with him. Thats what they are supposed to do, gameplay of course can create a different scenario.

It seems we are degenerating into feat wars. Bandon fought Revan in the same way that Revan fought Malak. It doesn't really show up another nich of Revan's skill the way Mandalore of Yusanis does.

Malak his actual power is indeed unknown for a large part, we do know he controlled the Star Forge, the same star forge that ate other weaker people, including people that used to be on the Jedi Council. He ruled over them too, was a ligthsaber prodigy and a fierce front line fighter during two wars. Malak has the experience over Ulic, and even Malak has shown more impressive use of force powers. Just less confirmed people he killed and fought.

What are these really impressive force powers from Malak? It all seemed like simple force lightning and pushing to me. All Malak really has over Ulic is experince, which we know isn't the end all factor.

I'm assuming this is Ulic Qel Droma we're talking bout, Fishy. He does have a lot of experience with other force users, and his skills were so good that even blocked from the force he was able to kill a jedi in melee combat.

And yeah, I think it was Satal.

Because there is no evidence of this, there is no evidence of Exar becoming stronger with a lightsaber either, he trained with the force.



all the Mandelorian champions think its more honorable to fight with a sword, however one or two do allow the Exile to choose the terms of the fight, the fact remains they find the sword to be the most honorable.



Honourable combat for an Echani is quite easy, fight without weaopns without the use of the force. Just fight..



How is defeating Bandon a feat war?

Well Nevermind I really don't want to get into this anyway, its the most logical conclusion but that isn't enough really..

And Malak has never shown really impressive force powers, still more impressive then the force powers Ulic has shown.

He didn't kill that Jedi, did he? I thought he just won and then said he would no longer fight. Ah well, a draw back of limited information.

Hm. Actually, I don't remember if he killed him or not. I haven't read the comic in a long time.

Originally posted by Wesker
I'm assuming this is Ulic Qel Droma we're talking bout, Fishy. He does have a lot of experience with other force users, and his skills were so good that even blocked from the force he was able to kill a jedi in melee combat.

And yeah, I think it was Satal.

Kill a Jedi?

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_29_18.jpg

He did no such thing they fought and he was forced to retreat, he managed to fight a jedi without the force impressive.. But he did not defeat a Jedi, and many people without the force but with weapons training managed to fight Jedi..


He also just cut down Satal who didn't even have a weapon, and Satal would hardly qualify as a Dark Jedi compared to others. He was a weakling, he couldn't even match Aleema who was a weakling too.

Originally posted by Wesker
Revan's kills:

- Mandalore (A nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Yusanis (Echani master, nonforce sensitive. Circumstances unknown)
- Bandon (Sith Lord apprentice, force sensitive. Circumstances unknown; possibly had help)
- Malak (Sith Lord, force sensitive. Battle described as "epic", but the actual details are unknown. Malak's actual power remains to be substantiated. At best, he can be placed above Dooku and below Bane.)

There's your sabergod.

Ulic pwned Cay, stalemated Exar Kun, pwned Mandalore in one hell of a scenario, and pwned some other ****er who's name I can't recall at this moment. I could get more, but again... I don't have any scans at work.

It's funny how you overestimate Kun's feats and completely underestimate Revan's. You forgot to include Revan's battle in the star forge. He (with 2 others) was able to battle through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced droids. Remember how malak didn't even think the dark jedi had a chance, and believed that they would only slow him down. malak must have held him in pretty high regard - to think that he would be able to take out an entire fortress of dark jedi. And Malak was still underestimating him at this point, as he believed that revan would not have a chance against him, yet Revan still came out on top. Add to this that he soon regained all of his memories and would have likely improve a hell of a lot more. Ulic has no chance. His best accomplishment was beating Mandalore. Malak would annihilate Mandalore.

Originally posted by Numan
It's funny how you overestimate Kun's feats and completely underestimate Revan's. You forgot to include Revan's battle in the star forge. He (with 2 others) was able to battle through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced droids. Remember how malak didn't even think the dark jedi had a chance, and believed that they would only slow him down. malak must have held him in pretty high regard - to think that he would be able to take out an entire fortress of dark jedi. And Malak was still underestimating him at this point, as he believed that revan would not have a chance against him, yet Revan still came out on top. Add to this that he soon regained all of his memories and would have likely improve a hell of a lot more. Ulic has no chance. His best accomplishment was beating Mandalore. Malak would annihilate Mandalore.

I'm going to pretend like you didn't post that nonsense.

Indeed, I'm going to pretend like you don't exist. If you think that video game baddies are canon, you're a fool. By that logic, Jaden Korr is mightier than Revan because he fought dozens upon dozens of dark jedi per floor of Vjun.

Fishy, stop calling your arguments logic. You're assuming that Mandalore and Revan fought on Mandalore's terms. You're assuming that Yusanis and Revan fought on Yusanis' terms. You're assuming that Revan was the only one who could defeat Bandon. Stating that Exar's lightsaber skills didn't get any better after Ulic and Exar stalemated only makes Ulic seem better as Exar pwned Vodo in lightsaber combat.

Like I said lets just drop those things, its a worthless debate that i'm to tired to do.

Exar did improve after fighting Ulic he improved a lot, he didn't improve his lightsaber skills between fighting Vodo and Ulic. In that time all he did was learn the force there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Now Ulic was never really shown to improve at all, he stalemated an Exar that was knocked down by Vodo in a very short fight. I fail to see how that is impressive. Exar Kun became impressive with a lightsaber after that, he wasn't a lightsaber god while fighting Ulic.

thats what I said

Why wouldn't Exar have improved in lightsaber skills? We know he did it at one point between in his fights with Ulic and there is nothing to suggest that he did it after fighting Ulic rather then before fighting Ulic. When Exar got the amulet from Nadd it seemed that he all around became a ton better.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why wouldn't Exar have improved in lightsaber skills? We know he did it at one point between in his fights with Ulic and there is nothing to suggest that he did it after fighting Ulic rather then before fighting Ulic. When Exar got the amulet from Nadd it seemed that he all around became a ton better.

Thats unsupported.

All we know is that he used the force on everything he fought after Vodo and didn't use his lightsaber again until he fought Ulic he also had no reason to use it, and with all the knowledge he had to study... Well, I doubt he di.

He didn't create dual bladed lightsaber by that point either. Unless you can prove that Exar improved between fighting Vodo and Ulic which you can't because there is no prove, he didn't. He only improved after that moment. When he was Dark Lord of the Sith and ready to go to war.

And in between his fights with Ulic? He only fought Ulic once...

Exar Kun improved his light saber abilities when he build the double sided lightsaber and developed a new saber technique. This was done after fighting Ulic, so Ulic didn't get the stronger Kun in the fight.

Bullshit.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3856/satal7ls.th.jpg

What's that he's blocking the lightsaber with, Fishy? I love how your "access to the comics" (by yanking images off of swcomics.com) ensures objectivity on your part... oh wait.



Going to argue with the narration?

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/3641/ulicfight28ig.th.jpg

I circled it just to make it clearer.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
zephiel, you still have that large quote from Lord Darkstar to respond to.

This is hilarious, apparently you can pick your opinion, and then everyone else has to prove you wrong to your subjective guidelines.

Funny. Why don't you try asking the other side for some proof?

Originally posted by Illustrious
This is hilarious, apparently you can pick your opinion, and then everyone else has to prove you wrong to your subjective guidelines.

Funny. Why don't you try asking the other side for some proof?

And that was directed at tdtd, silly autoquote feature.

Originally posted by IKC
Bullshit.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3856/satal7ls.th.jpg

What's that he's blocking the lightsaber with, Fishy? I love how your "access to the comics" (by yanking images off of swcomics.com) ensures objectivity on your part... oh wait.

Oh look at that, I made a mistake. He still wasn't an impressive fighter, and its not like you never made a mistake.. Like with the chancelor, don't see me going about that now do you?

And what does it matter really, the guy was worthless.




Again pretty much everybody with a name was called a Master Swordman. Revna was, Malak was Kavar was, what does that have to do with anything? And how the hell does it prove that Exar Kun became better with a lightsaber after being beaten by Vodo until that moment? Oh yeah thats right it doesn't.

You're right it doesn't, and illustrious I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe it's something I posted on a few pages back but since i'm obviously not going to go back that far, please be clear with what I did or didn't do.

Except you made a declaration that was flat-out untrue.



What a crock of shit! Were they called master swordsmen by omniscient narrators? Did you pull your head out of your ass long enough to realize that everyone you just named actually might have been master swordsmen?

Originally posted by IKC
Except you made a declaration that was flat-out untrue.

Like you with the chancelor, dude I said something that was wrong, but I believed it was true. So what, everybody makes mistakes. Its hanging on to them after being proven wrong that makes it bad. And he still wasn't an impressive fighter.




Everybody with a name was called a Master Swordman at one time or another, doesn't make them able to stand up against Revan, Malak, Ulic or Exar now does it? The point you made means jack shit, and sure as hell doesn't prove Ulic is powerful.

I do agree that Revan is superior to Ulic, though not by alot, but how on earth is he weaker than Malak?

Ragnos declared Kun the stronger yes, but he still named Ulic his apprentice, meaning that Ulic was no weakling, of the Sith, he was subordinate only to Kun, whereas Malak, could not even contend fairly with Revan, first time he shot Revan's ship, the 2nd time he required driods and a empowering weapon ie the Star Forge, to even have a chance to defeat a memory wiped Revan, a Revan who was about this time a Jedi Master...

In combination with his Zar'kai style, and his precognition, and overall superior lightsaber skills I suppose Revan is the victor.

In terms of a force duel, Revan wtfpwns Qel Droma.

In Echani combat Revan wins, because he defeated Yusanis with his skill(proof read Yusanis brand description, talk to Brianna)

Zephiel7, we've already established that Revan > Ulic, but dont go thinking Malak > Ulic because he is not.

No, really. We haven't established the former.

Ulic would saber-rape Revan. Hardcore.

Originally posted by IKC
No, really. We haven't established the former.

Ulic would saber-rape Revan. Hardcore.

any evidence for that?

Originally posted by zephiel7
In combination with his Zar'kai style, and his precognition, and overall superior lightsaber skills I suppose Revan is the victor.

In terms of a force duel, Revan wtfpwns Qel Droma.

In Echani combat Revan wins, because he defeated Yusanis with his skill(proof read Yusanis brand description, talk to Brianna)

No.

Something about some of you that are in love with TSW characters and hate KOTOR characters. Revan would ***** slap Ulic.

WTF? You -do- realize that Ulic has an assload of experience, right? He's only the central character in about four or five comic serieses.

You do realise he does about jack shit in those comics right?

He's barely seen fighting, in fact he only fights a few nobody's, one force sensitive guy not worth mentioning, Mandalore and Kun.

He beats Mandalore and stalemates Exar who at that time is far from the lightsaber god he would later on become. Ulic is about the most overrated character there is. He really hasn't seen all that much combat.

Yea he's uber leet with sexy Michael Bolton hair, but Revan is the lead of a canon storyline.. Nobody said Revan could take Kun but Revan would take Ulic.. Ulic is sexier though..

Ulic's list, and I may be leaving some out:

Warb Null
King Ommin (who was able to own Arca)
Satal Keto
Stalemated a lesser, but still very skilled, Exar Kun
Mandalore, when Mandalore had every advantage
Cay Qel-Droma
Stalemated Sylvar while cut off from the Force.

Ulic saber-rapes Revan.

Lets see... Ulic fought only 1 person even considered a lightsaber prodigy(Kun) and stalemated him. Revan defeated a lightsaber prodigy in Malak, who was also allegedly powered by the star forge. Revan beats Ulic with difficulty.

Cool. I love how "lightsaber prodigy" is somehow this great equalizer, and then Revan squeaks by with the unsubstantiated "boost" Malak received. So essentially your argument (If I can call it that) is U = P, M = P + S, therefore U < M.

Wow. That's horrible.

Oh wait... you forgot something....

Exar Kun had been delving into Sith lore and tricks for months, and had a Sith amulet on him. So I guess he's much better than a simple "lightsaber prodigy". Also, Ulic was wounded and infected with something.

Let me try simpleton logic!

U = E + A + I, P= M + S. Therefore, U >>> M

Oh noes!

You also fail to understand the true extent of Revans battle precognition.

Revan will see all of Ulic's attacks before hand and strike back with his dual sabers.

Originally posted by zephiel7
You also fail to understand the true extent of Revans battle precognition.

Revan will see all of Ulic's attacks before hand and strike back with his dual sabers.

Actually, I fail to see conclusive evidence that he has it. The word of some ignoramus girl who never met him doesn't convince me.

What she learned that from Atris

That is valid proof if any. In a video game, its hard to have an omniscient narrator. We have to accept facts said by game characters, because that is how the game makers intended their characters to be.

No, we don't. Atton didn't even know what sex Revan was, and he served in Revan's special forces. I highly doubt that sheltered Brianna knows shit, and I doubt that Revan has battle precognition, because no one ever mentioned it, including Atris. It's speculation, and it's because the Echani have something similar that Brianna makes the assumption. And again, she is not a qualified expert nor did she know the guy. Irrelevant.

You dismiss a source that effectively communicates the intent of the omniscient "gamemakers." I don't see how what you are saying makes sense.

By that logic, the Exile really is the strongest student of Kreia and Revan is really the heart of the force, not to mention the Exile is effectively mediocre and Revan was a child compared to everyone who came before him.

All that by hearsay testimony in game, btw. Nice way of saying random person who supports Revan is somehow "omniscient".

Nobody said Malak is greater than Ulic. But we're talking about a lightsaber duel here, and Revan has clearly achieved more in those terms. I don't know enough to say who'd win in a force battle.

Originally posted by tdtd
Nobody said Malak is greater than Ulic. But we're talking about a lightsaber duel here, and Revan has clearly achieved more in those terms. I don't know enough to say who'd win in a force battle.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1066/wered20that20curry20go2ni7ja.jpg

LOL.... I still don't get it does that mean "You're right I'm sorry"? Thanks man..

No, that was just my impression of that argument you put forth. Prove up, man. You provide nothing.

I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the omniscient narrators, that is the "gamemakers" could be wrong. Revan was a very powerful Jedi, thats why he warranted such praise from Traya who was witness to Exar Kun and Ulic. I would not say that the comic book maker who created Exar Kun and Ulic were bsing when they stated that Exar and Ulic were "master swordsman."

Prove up what? Revan convincingly beat Malak in the star forge. Ulic stalemated the only one worthy of lightsaber combat(Kun). What's wrong with my argument? Disregarding what Kreia said about Revan being power and the heart of the force, we have enough to assume Revan is more powerful than Ulic, at least in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the omniscient narrators, that is the "gamemakers" could be wrong. Revan was a very powerful Jedi, thats why he warranted such praise from Traya who was witness to Exar Kun and Ulic. I would not say that the comic book maker who created Exar Kun and Ulic were bsing when they stated that Exar and Ulic were "master swordsman."

I know, it's hard for you to let go of the inner fanboy and see this objectively but Brianna is not the mouthpiece fo the "omniscient gamemakers". She's one source of a supposed power she assumes that Revan has.

Originally posted by tdtd
Prove up what? Revan convincingly beat Malak in the star forge. Ulic stalemated the only one worthy of lightsaber combat(Kun). What's wrong with my argument? Disregarding what Kreia said about Revan being power and the heart of the force, we have enough to assume Revan is more powerful than Ulic, at least in lightsaber combat.

Exar Kun with sith amulet and training >>>>> Malak with a dinky Star Forge, mkay? And we have NO idea how close that battle was between Revan and Malak.

Who cares how close it was lol.. Saying that malak wasn't powered by the SF is like saying Exar Kun wasn't powered by the amulet. We don't know either, but we do know Revan BEAT Malak, no matter how close it was, and Ulic stalemated Kun.

Why on earth would the game makers even bring in Revan and battle precognition then? The game makers intended to communicate the fact that Revan had battle precognition.

Sorry Wesker there are more facts to prove that Revan>Ulic than the opposite.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Why on earth would the game makers even bring in Revan and battle precognition then? The game makers intended to communicate the fact that Revan had battle precognition.

You're jumping to conclusions. Why should we assume everything we hear about Revan from in game personas is neccessarily the case?

And tdtd, you have no such facts. Either put up or shut up.

No such facts? You're calling him a revan fanboy when it's clear your a SW fanboy.

SW? Star Wars? Eh?

Anyways, I've seen his "facts"... they lack substance and cannot be put well into context. When he puts up something good, trust me... I'll listen.

SW=Sith Wars poindexter

Originally posted by tdtd
Sorry Wesker there are more facts to prove that Revan>Ulic than the opposite.

More facts?

Like his ability to "beat" Mandalore or Echani with circumstance sunknown? Like his ability to beat Malak with circumstances unknown? Like his ability to beat Rakatans with circumstances unknown?

How does that beat being able to beat Mandalore when he was on top of a beast and had every advantage in the damn book? How does that top stalemating the top dog in the era? How does that top beating a Jedi Knight without access to the force? How does that top being the only Jedi capable of hacking through the forces on Onderon and taking out King Ommin? How does that top dominating in the Beast Wars?

Oh wait. It doesn't top that. It's you who always takes a side than then stacks the deck against the other based on nothing more than your opinion. Learn to prove up.

El Oh El

Originally posted by IKC
Ulic's list, and I may be leaving some out:

Warb Null
King Ommin (who was able to own Arca)
Satal Keto
Stalemated a lesser, but still very skilled, Exar Kun
Mandalore, when Mandalore had every advantage
Cay Qel-Droma
Stalemated Sylvar while cut off from the Force.

Ulic saber-rapes Revan.

So a none force senstive that isn't really established as anything special

King ommin?

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_18_21.jpg

Yes because attacking him from the back makes Ulic a saber god

Satal Keto was a nobody

Exar Kun at that power was beaten by Vodo, you said it yourself there is nothing to suggest his lightsaber skills increased in this time. Exar Kun is not a sabergod at that moment

Mandalore, indeed impressive

Cay Qel Droma, yeah really impressive especially because Cay wanted to fight him so badly


http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_23_22.jpg

Stalemated Sylvar?

He fought with her and was driven back until at the end he lowered his lightsaber, he didn't stalemate her he was losing.

Exactly, Ulic was being defeated badly, in fact, Sylvar had the lightsaber right next to his throat. Ulic merely provided a way for Sylvar to let go of her frustration

Wesker, think about it this way. How else are we supposed to learn about Revan? If the game producers start narrating a whole bunch of stuff, that really detracts from the game experience. Its not a novel, its a GAME. The only way they can communicate facts, is blending them in nicely through characters. What better time to portray Revan having battle precognition than when you, the Jedi Exile, are discovered to have it as well.

I'll say Ulic.

btw: I like all these threads involving ancient Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Wesker, think about it this way. How else are we supposed to learn about Revan? If the game producers start narrating a whole bunch of stuff, that really detracts from the game experience. Its not a novel, its a GAME. The only way they can communicate facts, is blending them in nicely through characters. What better time to portray Revan having battle precognition than when you, the Jedi Exile, are discovered to have it as well.

You're missing the point- we as outsiders cannot just assume that hearsay testimony from Random Character X is somehow to be interpreted as a direct and more importantly accurate hint from the game makers on Revan's canonical abilities. Brianna plainly says that she thinks Revan has something like Echani battle precognition because of his apparent ability. And keep in mind she hasn't met the guy. Just because it's a video game and there's no comic narration boxes doesn't mean we have to conclude that every character is right and telling the truth. That's ridiculous. In the movies, there are no such narration boxes, yet I do not assume that Anakin's overblown analogy of Obi-Wan to the highest jedi masters is pure and unadulterated fact. It's not.

Revan is an unknown. It sucks, I know. I really hope that KOTOR III is more concrete in giving us his powers, but what we have now isn't. Let it go.

Instead of browsing swcomics.com you need to sit down and read them, Fishy. Exar Kun had months of sith lore under his belt and work on Yavin IV before he ever challenged Ulic, and when he did Ulic was wounded and infected by Satal. The fact that he did so well speaks -very- well for him.

So this isn't a good thread then if Revan is such an unknown.

Originally posted by Wesker
Instead of browsing swcomics.com you need to sit down and read them, Fishy. Exar Kun had months of sith lore under his belt and work on Yavin IV before he ever challenged Ulic, and when he did Ulic was wounded and infected by Satal. The fact that he did so well speaks -very- well for him.

I read them Janus, when is the last time you have? I already talked about this with IKC, he said it himself. There is no evidence that Exar Kun improved with a lightsaber, his fight against Ulic was a lightsaber fight the force wasn't even involved. So those months of studying Sith Lore make him a powerful force user, not a powerful lightsaber duelist.

Also IKC often claimed that Ulic was still in prime condition when he fought with Exar Kun, unless you two wish to argue differently (in which case I would recommend arguing against him because i'm just saying what he said) he was still in a good condition. The argument for it was quite convincing actually.

And are you going to respond to the rest of my post?

Great now I have to play KOTOR AGAIN...

Originally posted by Fishy
I read them Janus, when is the last time you have? I already talked about this with IKC, he said it himself. There is no evidence that Exar Kun improved with a lightsaber, his fight against Ulic was a lightsaber fight the force wasn't even involved. So those months of studying Sith Lore make him a powerful force user, not a powerful lightsaber duelist.

Also IKC often claimed that Ulic was still in prime condition when he fought with Exar Kun, unless you two wish to argue differently (in which case I would recommend arguing against him because i'm just saying what he said) he was still in a good condition. The argument for it was quite convincing actually.

And are you going to respond to the rest of my post?

Actually, I'm not. I'm starting to get really irritated with the people around here. I'm not going to convince you with anything I say, and neither will he. It's really wasted effort. And tdtd here is simply out for kicks, antagonizing people. He doesn't debate. He can't. This is really... not worth my time. we've gone over this to the death, and you won't budge, I won't budge, IKC won't budge, and tdtd is just out to joyride.

I need a break from this shit. It' starting to get to me, and I have a lot of things I need to work on that are far more important than this that I've been avoiding. You guys can fight this one out. I'm done.

Yea, I can't debate on a star wars verus forum. Nice logic there tinkerbell.

Wesker you cannot simply state that Revan is a complete unknown when you the force user that you think is the greatest is an even bigger unknown. Ulic did nothing comparable to Revan so do not even try to say that him beating Mandalore etc. was. You cannot just round up all of the TOTJ fanboys and think that you are winning the argument because you have numbers on your side. tdtd and Fishy are right. Revan is simply a lot more powerful. The amount of dark jedi that he killed in the Star Forge is incredible and do not say that it is simple gameplay and therefor my point is moot because it is obvious that the makers of the game intended what Revan did to be as incredible as it seemed in the game. So don't simply say that others who conflict with your view are dumb and can't argue. You are wrong, now just accept that.

IKC is the only TOTJ fanboy but Revan is somewhat of an unknown although we know he trumps Ulic in terms of feats. Unfortunately that is all we know.

Actually we know a lot more based on in game comments from Malak we know that Revan did fight his way through the star forge destroying droids that would kill even the most powerful in the Jedi Order. We know that the apprentices were send out to kill him, and that he must have faced a few of them. As there are places in the game where he can not continue without fighting them, and we even have in game movies where we see the apprentices block an entrance for Revan to stop him from going there. We know Revan faced a Bastila powered by the Star Forge or three other apprentices there.

The most impressive thing Ulic has ever done was against Mandalore, and that was an impressive fight and I credit him for it, but I do not for a moment think that could put him above Revan. For the rest all we have is fights against weaklings, fights that aren't finished, fights against people that do not want to fight, or fights were he sneaks up on somebody and then kills him.

Brianna's account of Revan was what the game makers were asserting. Otherwise it would be pointless to include a fact like that in her talk with you, the Jedi Exile. Revan hence had echani battle precognition. He has shown it in his duel with Mandalore and Yusanis, when he was fighting by their terms.

I see faulty arguments on both sides. . .

IKC, I do think that you're underestimating Luke and his abilities. You have to take into the account that, unlike the Massassi and other races, the Vong cannot be sensed via the Force, except by those who understand their unique place in it. Meaning that a Jedi's greatest advantage - their amplified senses and precognition - is nullified. And even with that against him, Luke defeated four of the greatest fighters in a warrior race in seconds. This is aside from the hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong warriors he'd slaughtered with a speed that baffled even his niece. And for the record, his unique ability does kill on contact. I apologize for misreading the passage and giving everyone the wrong impression.

However, Fishy, you are horribly underestimating Ulic's capabilities, and misunderstanding the circumstances involved in the fight. Ulic started out standing on a chain, because Mandalore didn't want him to be allowed a footing on solid ground. The said Mandalorian, meanwhile, was happily seated in a Basilisk. You've played KotOR II; you know how the people of Onderon and the warriors on Dxun speak of them. After deflecting the initial blasts head on, he jumped up and destroyed the Basilisk with a stroke of his lightsaber. Mandalore then knocked Ulic off the chain with a swing from his axe-thing, and Ulic landed on another Basilisk that had flown to close. He leapt back up at Mandalore, and floored him.
So you could say that Ulic started out at a supreme disadvantage, and turned the fight completely around. That is an incredible display of saber prowess.

Very good point you're making. However Luke isn't in this thread lol, so your point is great and would serve even more purpose in the Ragnos, DN Luke and Exar Kun run the gauntlet.

Originally posted by Faunus
I see faulty arguments on both sides. . .

IKC, I do think that you're underestimating Luke and his abilities. You have to take into the account that, unlike the Massassi and other races, the Vong cannot be sensed via the Force, except by those who understand their unique place in it. Meaning that a Jedi's greatest advantage - their amplified senses and precognition - is nullified. And even with that against him, Luke defeated four of the greatest fighters in a warrior race in seconds. This is aside from the hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong warriors he'd slaughtered with a speed that baffled even his niece. And for the record, his unique ability does kill on contact. I apologize for misreading the passage and giving everyone the wrong impression.

However, Fishy, you are horribly underestimating Ulic's capabilities, and misunderstanding the circumstances involved in the fight. Ulic started out standing on a chain, because Mandalore didn't want him to be allowed a footing on solid ground. The said Mandalorian, meanwhile, was happily seated in a Basilisk. You've played KotOR II; you know how the people of Onderon and the warriors on Dxun speak of them. After deflecting the initial blasts head on, he jumped up and destroyed the Basilisk with a stroke of his lightsaber. Mandalore then knocked Ulic off the chain with a swing from his axe-thing, and Ulic landed on another Basilisk that had flown to close. He leapt back up at Mandalore, and floored him.
So you could say that Ulic started out at a supreme disadvantage, and turned the fight completely around. That is an incredible display of saber prowess.

Faunus

"The most impressive thing Ulic has ever done was against Mandalore, and that was an impressive fight and I credit him for it, but I do not for a moment think that could put him above Revan."

The fight against Mandalore was damned impressive, and his most impressive fights, all the other fights don't mean much. And yes the fight against Mandalore was really great, but I still fail to see how that would put Ulic above Revan.

You know untill KOTOR III comes out and assuming that is defines Revan's powers we really just have to assume that Ulic would defeat Revan. Not easily but I think he would defeat him.

Originally posted by Veneficus
You know untill KOTOR III comes out and assuming that is defines Revan's powers we really just have to assume that Ulic would defeat Revan. Not easily but I think he would defeat him.

I don't...

Revan doesn't have a lot of confirmed fights and kills, but what he is still surpasses Ulic.

Originally posted by Fishy
I don't...

Revan doesn't have a lot of confirmed fights and kills, but what he is still surpasses Ulic.

Well that's your opinion.

Isn't everything in a vs thread?

Originally posted by Fishy
Isn't everything in a vs thread?

Not when IKC is around. Becuase when IKC speaks you know it is true fact. How can you disagree with a man who refuses to admit he is wrong?

Originally posted by Veneficus
Not when IKC is around. Becuase when IKC speaks you know it is true fact. How can you disagree with a man who refuses to admit he is wrong?

The same way you can disagree with a man that does admit he's wrong, it just takes more time...

Fishy is right, from what we know about Revan it is logical to assume that he is more powerful than Ulic.

Here's an idea; just drop the whole thing. We have no canonical information on Revan, save for the fact that he was a Sith Lord. Just hold off on the Revan threads and arguments until KotOR III comes out.

Originally posted by Faunus
Here's an idea; just drop the whole thing. We have no canonical information on Revan, save for the fact that he was a Sith Lord. Just hold off on the Revan threads and arguments until KotOR III comes out.

Exactly.

Okidokie