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Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

Those jedi are fekked.

All Jedi die...

HK's are able to fly on there own, have flamethrowers and are a hell of a lot smarter then the Jedi.

What? I don't see how the HK droids are going to win. It took thousands of droids to take out the Jedi before the Clones showed up. That was with Geonosian heavy weapons too. Are you telling me that it would take more then 2 Jedi to pull the guns away from the Hk's hands? In DN, Leia, who is very weak, maybe able to give TPM Obi-wan some trouble at best, is able to turn the guns away from her that Chiss soliders(I think it was Chiss) had pointed at her. Mace alone could take out many HK droids by simply nudging their guns to fire slightly over his head and then slicing them in half. Obi-wan and Lumiara could also do the same very well.

Many of the Jedi will die, but I don't see them losing.

Edit: Fishy, when did a HK droid ever fly?

HK talks about it, he was shot down while flying in Mandalorian space. Something on him was damaged and he couldn't fly anymore, after that he was repaired and he could fly again.

I don't see an jet packs on him. I think he was talking about shot down while in a ship. Also, why didn't any of the replica HK-50 droids fly?

Didn't they? Then how did they go to where the Exile was flying from the military base?

And he wasn't talking about a ship, he says he was damaged and doesn't even mention a ship. And I think he talks about another time when he was flying trying to kill a daughter company of Czerka, but i'm not entirely sure about that.

I don't remember HK ever talking about flying under his own power. And I think the HK-50 droids had a shuttle to get from place to place.

I didn't see a shuttle there, and its unlikely that they managed to get through the turrets that shot down Atton...

The Droid Factory had many shuttles in it and it was in the military base. But alas, it was cut.

In any case, most of the battle droids on Geonosis were the weak idiotic kind, with only a handful being the potent droidekas. A hundred HKs with assault blaster rifles could lay down saturation fire well beyond any Niman practitioner's means of defence. They are also independant yet collectively bound, and are bounty hunter droids of the highest caliber.

Thousands of battle droids or 100 HK Units? If the only things they are armed with a Mandalorian Repeaters. Then the Jedi win.

EDIT: Besides, there are 400 to 500 Jedi in the arena. George Lucas said it himself in a interview about AotC.

Eh, IG-88 could take HK-47, so second highest caliber.

To say that the HK droids are going to take down two Jedi a piece doesn't make any sense though. It's not like they have the abilty to gas the Jedi or kill them with booby traps. Mace alone could take down at least ten of them by just nudging their guns to fire away from the Jedi. Obi-wan, Vos, Bulq, Luminara, Plo Kon, and Kit Fisto could easily nudge the guns of at least 50 of the droids away.

Erm... are you missing something?

The thousands of battle droids were tactically inferior. they were controlled by a central computer and their fighting effectiveness was pathetic. There were 200 jedi on Geonosis aside from the named characters. A Repeater Blaster Rifle fires in excess of five rounds a second- more than the carbines and wrist blasters the battle droids were using.

Now, these droids are capable of tactical thought, indepedant thought, and they know how to trap and eliminate prey. Just one of these evil bastards is capable of destroying jedi. You put them in this large a group, arm them with automatic war weapons and have a bunch of halfassed jedi and it's pure carnage.

There is more firepower from thousands of droids than 100 HK Units.

And there's far more power in a group of a thousand musketeers than in a hundred German landsers, but the latter is a better army group and more effective if used properly.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
EDIT: Besides, there are 400 to 500 Jedi in the arena. George Lucas said it himself in a interview about AotC.
There were actually 200 Jedi in the arena.

Janus, as I said, they can just rip the droids guns from their hands or simply nudge them a few inches upward, allowing a Jedi to storm in and kill it. Most of the Jedi will die, but I don't see how they droids would win.

Uh, Glentract? If they can just "rip the guns from their hands" how come they didn't do that EVERY SINGLE TIME they encounters battle droids?

Apparently because it's not that easy to do on a battle field.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
There were actually 200 Jedi in the arena.

Says who?

Originally posted by Wesker
Uh, Glentract? If they can just "rip the guns from their hands" how come they didn't do that EVERY SINGLE TIME they encounters battle droids?

Apparently because it's not that easy to do on a battle field.

When they are outnumbered, it's not easy, but when they outnumber an enemy or have the upperhand(notice that the Jedi outnumber the droids 2-1, it should be very possible, unless crappy Jedi Leia is stronger then Mace or Obi-wan.).

Says every source I've ever seen, including the novelisation.

Originally posted by Wesker
Says every source I've ever seen, including the novelisation.

Yeah, but HK droids can lay down enough cover fire to make such a mass coordinated action infeasible. And we can SEE from the battle that took place on Geonosis that the jedi have no concept of tactics and act like a mass of invididuals rather than a disciplined and coordinated strike force. Granted, it's very possible that the jedi could survive this and turn the tide, but I doubt it. One hundred droids firing at over five bolts per second is 15,000 bolts in the air per minute assuming they squeeze the trigger every other second. I don't see 200 glowsticks parrying all that.

Mace Windu alone wins this with his bare hands.

George Lucas isn't a good enough source for you?

Besides I just watched it this afternoon.

Okay.

With one hundred droids all shooting up to five blaster bolts per second, laying down concentrated fire at up to 15,000 blasts a minute, assuming that they push the trigger every other second, I don't see 400-500 glowsticks defending against that.

Happy?

Hk droids would win. In kotor 2, Hk can tell you how to kill Jedi, and says that he has killed many of them in the past. If one Hk unit can do all that, the Jedi are about to be Scourged. They have NO chance whatsoever.

There were more blasts from the other droids.

Droidekas can do about 8 shots a second.

And how many droidekas where in the arena, Guy? The overwhelming majority where those storklike wussified and brainless droids with the accuracy of C-3PO with no arms.

True. If the stupid, Skeleton-like Droids could take out Masters, the Hk's would be overkill.

There were plenty. Considering there was a droid works right there.

How are they horrible? If they were so overwhelming, they would have killed most of the Jedi. But that isn't the question.

The Jedi win. On account of more warriors. And more skilled warriors.

Janus, that's assuming that the HK droids can get a target every other second and that the droids won't be annihaleted by the thousands of deflected blaster bolts.

Plus, that's 15,000 shots per minute. Really not that hard for 200 glow sticks to deflect if you really think about it. 15,000 / 200 = 75 shots per Jedi per minute. That averages to 1.25 shots per second per Jedi. ROTJ Luke deflects shots almost that fast in ROTJ on Endor when being fired upon by that speeder bike.

To say that the average Jedi Knights and Masters are weaker then ROTJ Luke at blaster deflection is something I don't think you believe.

They DID Kill most of the Jedi there Guy! Where have you been?

Then how are they horrible?

Predicted response: Because the Jedi are horrible.

I'm hoping for a certain response.

Heavily outnumbering Jedi who have no tactical ability at all and who use a sucky lightsaber style.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, that's assuming that the HK droids can get a target every other second and that the droids won't be annihaleted by the thousands of deflected blaster bolts.

Plus, that's 15,000 shots per minute. Really not that hard for 200 glow sticks to deflect if you really think about it. 15,000 / 200 = 75 shots per Jedi per minute. That averages to 1.25 shots per second per Jedi. ROTJ Luke deflects shots almost that fast in ROTJ on Endor when being fired upon by that speeder bike.

To say that the average Jedi Knights and Masters are weaker then ROTJ Luke at blaster deflection is something I don't think you believe.

OMg... Glentract, here's your assumptions:

- 15,000 blasts NEED to be aimed at individuals. Obviously you know nothing about the idea of saturation fire.

- That when a volley opens up of over 2,000 blasts within the first few seconds, the jedi will have the skill and luck to reflect them back and hit a man-sized object across an entire arena rivaling a major football stadium.

- Luke blocking a total of perhaps three to six shots from the speeder bike compares to the onslaught of again, over 2,000 shots inside of a minute. Oh, and that the situations are comparable. Luke was able to block that with the blasts coming directly at him from one target under rather minimal pressure, compared to a flat out war of jedi versus HK droids armed to the teeth.

HK droids win.

Originally posted by Wesker
Okay.

With one hundred droids all shooting up to five blaster bolts per second, laying down concentrated fire at up to 15,000 blasts a minute, assuming that they push the trigger every other second, I don't see 400-500 glowsticks defending against that.

Happy?

It took thousands of battle droids (hundreds of super battle droids that do rapid fire without pulling a trigger meaning they could shot more blaster bolts then the HKs could) to defeat 200 Jedi Knights. 100 HK-100s wouldn't be able to defeat them.

Plus, I'll be on the sidelines with the portable minigun from Clone Wars firing at the Jedi for fun. That puts out 100 shots a second...

Haha. Good times at Kashyyyk with those guys. Good times.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
It took thousands of battle droids (hundreds of super battle droids that do rapid fire without pulling a trigger meaning they could shot more blaster bolts then the HKs could) to defeat 200 Jedi Knights. 100 HK-100s wouldn't be able to defeat them.

I suppose I should have proposed this scenario at Arm Chair General forums where people know their shit on infantry tactics.

ESB... The battle droids in the arena did NOT take up batlte lines and fire multiple volleys into the jedi ranks. In fact, they were spread in a wide circle and they -clearly- took random shots at individual jedi instead of combining their firepower and laying down proper saturation fire. Even the potenti droidekas and battle droids foolishly waddled around in the battlefield and sought out single jedi knights like some kind of foolish honor duel mentality. The HK droids would not be so foolish. So while the original droid army had far more bolts to put out, they were idiotic in their strategy (Just as they were on Naboo in TPM, another droid army **** up) and one hundred HK droids would be FAR more effective, period.

Originally posted by Wesker
I suppose I should have proposed this scenario at Arm Chair General forums where people know their shit on infantry tactics.

ESB... The battle droids in the arena did NOT take up batlte lines and fire multiple volleys into the jedi ranks. In fact, they were spread in a wide circle and they -clearly- took random shots at individual jedi instead of combining their firepower and laying down proper saturation fire. Even the potenti droidekas and battle droids foolishly waddled around in the battlefield and sought out single jedi knights like some kind of foolish honor duel mentality. The HK droids would not be so foolish. So while the original droid army had far more bolts to put out, they were idiotic in their strategy (Just as they were on Naboo in TPM, another droid army **** up) and one hundred HK droids would be FAR more effective, period.

Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

First post. If it is the same situtation the Jedi starts out on all areas of the arena like they did in ATOC. And clearly you make it sound like the Jedi just stand around. We could clearly see that the Jedi stayed in small groups to help give each other cover fire.

OMg... Glentract, here's your assumptions:

- 15,000 blasts NEED to be aimed at individuals. Obviously you know nothing about the idea of saturation fire.

1. You're assuming that the Jedi are going to be all bunched up throughout the fight. They weren't all bunched on Geonosis in ep2, which drastically reduces the effectiveness of saturation fire.

2. I'd like to see your source for a repeating blaster being able to fire five shots per second. The T-21 repeating blaster can only fire once per second because of cooling requirements according to the Essential Guide to Weapons.

Originally posted by Wesker
- That when a volley opens up of over 2,000 blasts within the first few seconds, the jedi will have the skill and luck to reflect them back and hit a man-sized object across an entire arena rivaling a major football stadium.

2,000 shots in the first few seconds? How do you figure? And if the HK droids don't need to aim to hit the Jedi I don't see why it would take aim to hit the HK droids right back. The point is that neither is going to be able to just randomly hit fire back at the other side. They will need to take aim, something that neither side will have the time to really do(the Jedi won't at all and the HK droids will only be able to if they reduce their firing speed from once every other second.).

- Luke blocking a total of perhaps three to six shots from the speeder bike compares to the onslaught of again, over 2,000 shots inside of a minute. Oh, and that the situations are comparable. Luke was able to block that with the blasts coming directly at him from one target under rather minimal pressure, compared to a flat out war of jedi versus HK droids armed to the teeth.

HK droids win.

Janus, I already showed how ever ROTJ Luke was deflecting blaster bolts fast enough for 200 Jedi Knights to do the same. The situations aren't totally comparible, no, but Luke wasn't exactly experinced at deflecting blaster bolts. That was what, his third time do it? The Jedi have been trained for years and years to stop blaster bolts. They can do it.

Jedi win.

Yet most got shot to death...

200 Jedi vs. thousands of battle droids, super battle droids, destroyers, geonosisians, and heavey weapons. I wonder why they were losing?

Who were losing?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. You're assuming that the Jedi are going to be all bunched up throughout the fight. They weren't all bunched on Geonosis in ep2, which drastically reduces the effectiveness of saturation fire.

Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.



My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.



Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).

And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.

What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.

Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly


Janus, I already showed how ever ROTJ Luke was deflecting blaster bolts fast enough for 200 Jedi Knights to do the same. The situations aren't totally comparible, no, but Luke wasn't exactly experinced at deflecting blaster bolts. That was what, his third time do it? The Jedi have been trained for years and years to stop blaster bolts. They can do it.

Jedi win.

No, you're wrong. It's an improper comparison. Luke was alone, versus one speederbike trooper whose gun fired straight at him with about 3-6 shots total in a much shorter time. This is a few hundred jedi versus a hundred armed killing machines firing rounds in excess of that dozens of times over per second. No comparison. You proved... nothing.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

First post. If it is the same situtation the Jedi starts out on all areas of the arena like they did in ATOC. And clearly you make it sound like the Jedi just stand around. We could clearly see that the Jedi stayed in small groups to help give each other cover fire.

Hm. I didn't see that. If the HK droids are spread out in a circle like that, they'll probably die. If they are in one group across the arena, they can take this.

The Jedi have plenty of room to spread out to keep the HKs down. The arena is pretty big with columns and stuff in the way. The Jedi managed to deflect thousands of blaster bolts until they lost to many to keep holding and got pushed into a small circle. If anything the way the droids were attacking the Jedi was the best way because they were attacking them all around and now the Jedi could focus on center droids considering they outnumber the HKs 1 to 2.

Yet one HK could take out several normal Jedi on its own, revealed in KOTOR II.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
The Jedi have plenty of room to spread out to keep the HKs down. The arena is pretty big with columns and stuff in the way. The Jedi managed to deflect thousands of blaster bolts until they lost to many to keep holding and got pushed into a small circle. If anything the way the droids were attacking the Jedi was the best way because they were attacking them all around and now the Jedi could focus on center droids considering they outnumber the HKs 1 to 2.

No, actually there were two thin pillars (The width of a human being) in the arena and eventually the overturned chariot. That's it. Nothing else to hide behind besides each other. And if you watch AOTC again, you can see that the droids engage in under 10 meters range with the jedi before they open fire. It's clearly in the jedi's favor, and they STILL die in large ass numbers.

And the encircling tactic is idiotic. No one with ranged weapons wants to fully encircle an enemy. that's ridiculous. You want between two to three bases of fire from about 90 degrees apart, max.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, actually there were two thin pillars (The width of a human being) in the arena and eventually the overturned chariot. That's it. Nothing else to hide behind besides each other. And if you watch AOTC again, you can see that the droids engage in under 10 meters range with the jedi before they open fire. It's clearly in the jedi's favor, and they STILL die in large ass numbers.

And the encircling tactic is idiotic. No one with ranged weapons wants to fully encircle an enemy. that's ridiculous. You want between two to three bases of fire from about 90 degrees apart, max.

Well when there is about 20 Jedi left and you have them completely surrounded that's a good thing. Also the battle droids wanted to surround the Jedi to cut off any possible escape routes.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Well when there is about 20 Jedi left and you have them completely surrounded that's a good thing. Also the battle droids wanted to surround the Jedi to cut off any possible escape routes.

The jedi really have no where to escape to. If we assume that the objective is to defeat Separatist (HK ) forces and presumably to rescue the jedi held captive, this could be (goal wise) a miserable failure. If we assume that there are no jedi and senator to rescue but they still must win, encircling is still a bad choice. Look at it like this...

HK HK HK HK






HK HK HK



JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI











HK HK HK




.......



That's an ideal crossfire.

Snap, that didn't come out right.

Look at it this way... with the jedi in the center of a clock, place a group of HK droids at 12, some between 2-3, and some between 9-10... ideal crossfire.

Originally posted by Wesker
The jedi really have no where to escape to. If we assume that the objective is to defeat Separatist (HK ) forces and presumably to rescue the jedi held captive, this could be (goal wise) a miserable failure. If we assume that there are no jedi and senator to rescue but they still must win, encircling is still a bad choice. Look at it like this...

HK HK HK HK






HK HK HK



JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI JEDI











HK HK HK




.......



That's an ideal crossfire.

Expect here the Jedi outnumber the HKs 2 to 1. Your little chart show the Jedi outnumbered in one area with the HKs spread out which wouldn't happen. The Jedi would spread out forcing the HKs to either bunch together or spread out.

Again, missing the point. The jedi start off in a group. If they remain in a group, they get flanked and ****ed. If they splinter off into smaller groups, the HK can fan out, flank them, and **** them up. Basic infantry tactics.

They don't start in a group. Same situtation as the Geonosis arena so the Jedi start all around the arena.

And why would assasination droids be soooo effective in infantry combat?

Originally posted by Wesker
Hm. I didn't see that. If the HK droids are spread out in a circle like that, they'll probably die. If they are in one group across the arena, they can take this.

Apparently you don't uderstand where I'm coming from. As I've admitted here, if it's a mere 100 HK droids encircling jedi just exactly like in the movie, they will likely lose. It's a poor situation. If they DON'T start off in such a ridiculous position, they can win. THAT'S what I'm arguing. But since Traya isn't here to specify, I plan to keep arguing the case.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

She said same situtation

Okay mister literal. Same situation. they die. Piss off.

Same situation, the clones come in and pwn the HK-47s

Originally posted by Wesker
Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.



My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.



Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).

And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.

What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.

Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly




You are overlooking something obvious, even though the droids can fire 4-5 shots every time they fire (which is more like every 3 or 4 seconds anyway) how many of those shots actually hit your opponent? usually one or two.
There was plenty of room on Geonosis for Jedi to seperate! another obvious point. when the fight started, the Jedi were all up in the stands, standing well apart from each other. They were nowhere near all standing together in ranks. Plus you ignore richochets, and deflected shots doing damage, i believe a few jedi would fall, but at 2 to 1, i think it would be a short fight with smoking droids lying everywhere.

My main point: at the beginning of the battle, the jedi have the droids surrounded, there are no battle lines. It's fact, when the lightsabers ignite, they have the enemy surrounded, with civilians everywhere that would stop the first volley of blasterfire. It would be over in minutes.
Answer that if you can think of something. It is pathetic and ridiculous to think that droids could take out two jedi apiece.

At the rate of fire they can pump shots out at, this isn't the point. You have 200 jedi, with the HKs loosing around 500 shots anywhere between every two seconds and every five seconds. Considering how the HK droids operate (They have uncanny accuracy and are training killing machines of high quality, as opposed to mere cheap Federation drois with a central controlling computer), they are deadly enemies.



Actually, they were on the arena floor or just below the stands near the wall. And immediately afterwards they were encircled by Federation droids.



Over 85% of the jedi didn't leave that arena despite gross incompetence by the Federation droids. HK droids are known assassins and jedi killers, and in this case are equipped with weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed, giving them superior firepower and speed. What -I- was arguing that everyone seems to be just... not paying attention to was that if the jedi were in the arena floor and the HK droids on the other side or outside in the stands, the jedi die. It's one big murderhole. This is pretty obvious. These jedi were substandard in warfare and did not work properly as an army group. One HK droid possesses a MAndalorian Repeater, which fires five rounds as quick as one pulls the trigger. Now, because of the recoil, the 2-5th bolts arc up and scatter. You mean to tell me that the jedi will just block all of those shots? Even if at the beginning of the match the HK take aim and fire on individual jedi, those jedi can't hope to block one five-burst shot, let alone two. And saturation fire would just mow down any large groups.

I'm glad everyone has great faith in the jedi's blocking abilities though, considering we don't see a jedi deflect a blaster bolt back in under a 10 meter distance in the entire series.



Actually, the jedi pop up out in a circle formation, close to the walls on the arena floor, with a few in the stands. Then more Fed droids appear and encircle them entirely. That was the situation. Traya obviously needs to specify the locations of each, because we could easily put the HK droids in the middle where they die horribly, encircling, which wouldn't be much better, or cluster them all on one side.

And please... "It is pathetic and ridiculous to think that droids could take out two jedi apiece." Obviously you don't know a thing about HK droids or Mandalorian hardware.

weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed
If you read the first post you see that they only have Mandalorian Repeaters

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Same situtation as the Geonosis arena, but the battle droids are replaced with 100 Hk-47's totting Mandalorian Repeaters.

Who wins?

one five-burst shot
So the Jedi just stand around? And many of the Jedi came from the stands and the droids came from the arena doors.

10 meter distance in the entire series
Yeah but when you have the ability to move around it seems a lot harder to hit them. Plus the Jedi can easily force push/pull the HKs. They outnumber them 1 to 2 so they don't have to worry about being mauled down by thousands among thousands of battle droids.

assassins and jedi killers
Just because you were built for something doesn't mean you will do it. Look at the IG-100s. They didn't do their job very well.

The only reason most of the Jedi died at Geonosis was because of overwhelming numbers, and the droids had heavy artillary. In this fight, the odds change drastically. There are 200 Jedi, and 100 HK-47 droids. Yes HK-47 is a lot better than a battle droid, but if the Jedi outnumber the HK-47s 2 to 1 then the Jedi take this. A lot of Jedi will die, but they still win.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
weaponry none of the Fed droids possessed
If you read the first post you see that they only have Mandalorian Repeaters

Do you know what a Mandalorian Repeater even is? It is a KotOR era weapon; heavy blaster rifle with automatic fire and lots of punch. It's heavier, more powerful, and faster than any weapon the Fed droids had by far. Canderous tots one of them. It's like the gatling gun of the blaster rifle family.




1. The jedi would have EXTREME difficulty deflecting that many rounds at once without going down hurt or dead.

2. The start up of either party needs to be verified by the thread creator. I doubt very much that Traya expected the jedi to be encircling the HK droids. That's game set and match before it even begins.



Erm... did you miss my point? Of course you did. You have the reading comprehension of a four year old.

TEH JEDI CAN NOT REFLECT TEH BLASUR BOLTS BACK AT TEH HK ASSAASSIN DROYDS FROM 60 + METURS ACCURATELY.

Did you get that? The arena is HUGE... easily larger than most stadiums. A volley of 500 blaster bolts coming in under a second is going to be ridiculous for all but Jet Li of the movie Hero to deflect without getting stopped in place or outright hit. And force pushing droids from such distances isn't feasible, especially under HEAVY fire. Use your brain, ESB.




Nice logic foul up there, ESB. Congrats on having the reasoning power of a California raisin. HK droids are assassin droids and made for killing. They are accurate shots, devious and clever thinkers, excellent strategists and they KNOW HOW TO KILL JEDI. Period.

Droids have this. Now go play with your jedi action figure, kid.

Originally posted by Wesker
Erm, they have NO WHERE to hide on the floor. And I don't think there's going to be a lot of places for two hundred jedi to just... disburse and not end up getting shot. Likewise, these are Mandalorian Repeaters. They pump out ammo pretty fast and have huge ammo paks.

They don't need to hide. For one, the Mandalorian Heavy Repeater has a maximum range of 28 meters. That's about 90 feet I think(my metric is bad). The HK droids can't snipe the Jedi.

Originally posted by Wesker
My source? KotOR II. Go play the game, Glentract. Every time the weapon is fired, it releases 4-5 shots. With recoil and aim adjustment, at optimal firing a droid assassin army could fire a shot -perhaps- every other second. Even if they only fire every ten seconds, that's still 3,000 bolts a minute. If you think that the jedi can just stream across an open arena and wade their way through that and destroy every HK droid, that's disgustingly inaccurate.

Janus, there is no indication that it will be able to continue to fire at that rate for an extended period of time. If it could, why would it have been abandoned in favor of the T-21, which can only fire once per second because of cooling restrictions.

I already showed you why they can.

1. At 3,000 shots per minute it's far to easy for the Jedi.

3,000 / 60(rounds per second) = 50 rounds per second. 50 / 200 = .25 That's a single shot every four seconds per Jedi. Easy to defend against.

At every other second, we just multiply .25 * 5 = 1.25 shots per second per Jedi on average. Again, this is easy to deflect.

Lets say that the HK roids concentrate their fire against fewer targets to kill more of the Jedi, since a Jedi obviously can't block ten shots per second. If so, what do you think the other 150 Jedi are going to be doing? Drinking tea? They can simply rip the guns from the HK droids hands, which would be easy for them to do if they aren't being fired at. ESB Luke used the force to the same extend when he lifted the rocks off the ground.

Originally posted by Wesker
Firing every other second, 2,000 blasts could be loosed in a very short amount of time if they're firing for saturation. (100 HKs, 5 shots per second, ever other second fired = 2,000 rounds in 8-10 seconds, optimally).

Again, that's not impossible for a Jedi to deflect. Not even all that hard, really. 2,000 / 200 = 10 shots per Jedi over ten seconds. Again, that's slower then ROTJ Luke. We saw many of the Jedi on Geonosis deflect fire much faster then this in ep2. Again, it's very possible for the Jedi to pull this off.

Originally posted by Wesker
And really, do you think that with that kind of firepower coming straight at the jedi they're all going to react perfectly and just... reflect it all? If reflecting blaster bolts using Niman was -that- good, they wouldn't have charged to close the gap. At home I have an animation showing them charging to close the gap, but of course I can't post it while at work.

They did charge to close the gap, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't still reflect blaster bolts. Notice that no one was killed in that first charge either(I didn't see anyone at least). The reason they would charge in is perfectly tactical, even I can see that. Rather then just deflecting blaster bolts, now they can limit the amount of droids that can get a shot at them and attack with both their blades and reflected bolts.

Originally posted by Wesker
What I see happening is the HKs opening up with a tremendous first volley. Jedi drop. The jedi will likely lose members in this volley (Since the average Niman jedi is not fit for much combat), and they do one of two things... Either the jedi bunch together and try and defend while charging (Which presents a huge target and minimizes their effective lightsaber blocking range since they're so close together), or they fragment and run across the field one at a time, in which case the HK start to bracket them in with fire and then take them down as they approach.

??? I already have shown that your tremendous first volley requires less to defend against then your average farm boy with a few months of training could. If Luke could keep a cool head, why can these guys? They are far better trained and experinced at deflecting blaster fire. Luke was able to take down 19 guys in ROTJ on the Sail Barge by himself. It really makes no sense that for a group that includes greats like Mace, Obi-wan, Luminara, Vos, Bulq, Plo Koon, and Fisto to be weaker then that.

If the Jedi group together, they still have the abilty to deflect many blaster bolts. Only a few of the Jedi die, after that the HK droids get pwned when the mass of Jedi reaches them a few seconds later(remember that the maximum range of a Mandalorian Heavy Repeater is 28m according to KOTOR, which takes about 8 seconds to walk across).

If the Jedi make a rampant charge for the HK droids, then the HK droids get pwned big time. Now, my 40m time is 5.39 seconds and I'm not an especially fast guy. That means that I could cover 28m in less then for seconds. If using force speed, which roughly doubles a person's speed, that number becomes less then two seconds. The Hk droids get less then 2 seconds before the Jedi are on them, hacking them to pieces. The Jedi suffer losses no greater then 50, as it would take at least that many HK droids firing at a single Jedi to kill him.

Originally posted by Wesker
Any jedi who gets within the HK lines will do some damage, but the others will likely turn on him and rip loose. Again, the Mandalorian Repeater does 4-5 rounds -per trigger pull-, so most jedi won't be able to contend with that while running forward. And keep in mind that the shots aren't tightly

Again, the HK droids only get one opportunity to fire between when the Jedi enter the HK droids range and when the Jedi are all over them in melee combat. Since I have already shown why Jedi can block attacks from a single Jedi, we know that it will take at least 2 HK droids to even have a chance of taking down a Jedi. That means that at most 50 Jedi die and once the Jedi get to the HK droids, victory is secured for the Jedi.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're wrong. It's an improper comparison. Luke was alone, versus one speederbike trooper whose gun fired straight at him with about 3-6 shots total in a much shorter time. This is a few hundred jedi versus a hundred armed killing machines firing rounds in excess of that dozens of times over per second. No comparison. You proved... nothing.

Luke was also an inexperinced farm boy who had blocked live blaster bolts maybe three or four times before then. As I said before, it will only take 2 seconds or less for the Jedi to get from the point at which they enter the HK droids range to when they are at the HK droids hacking them to pieces.

T3-M4 killed thre HK-50s by himself.

Yeah, HK-50's, models far inferior to HK-47.

Although HK-47 got stunned by T3, when he had his back turned...

If they were inferior, why would they make them and not HK-47 units?

Because:

1) HK has far more experience.

The HK-50's simply do not have war experience at all. The Droid Factory itself has no training facilities whatsover and G0-T0 didn't have the original schematics availible either.

The HK-50s gave the Exile a run for his money though.

Woopdie doo... HK-47 killed Jedi for a living, alone. HK 50's worked in groups and still did not manage to kill or capture a Jedi, even when that Jedi was still a noob.

Yeah, he's a Jedi and Sith killer.

The Exile is a noob? No.

He isn't?

He has been without the force for years when he encountered the first HK 50.. Okay he had two other people there, but then not much later he landed on Telos and again fought HK 50's, and they were destroyed by an old woman that never used her full power, by the exile and by Atton a blaster user.

HK47 would have destroyed them all, or would at least have forced Kreia to ues more of her force powers to destroy or stop the droid. Fact is if those droids were as good as HK then the Exile would have been captured on Peragus and Kreia would have been dead along with Atton.

The Darkside version beat the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order. Then if you look at the Lightside version, he is always getting complimented about him being the most gifted student, and how he learns so quickly.

Yet before all that, before he faced the masters before he really drained the power from Kreia because thats all what he did ot learn, he was considered a mediocere Jedi, an average student with a gift.

Thats it, the Exile is not skilled and when he had barely started hearing the force again, as nothing more then a whisper coming from far away he was already good enough to beat one of those doirds. I don't care how he did it, but HK would not have fallen for such a thing, especially not if he had the element of surprise.

The Lightside ending is the Canon though, isn't it?

Don't know, it probably will be but no official word about it yet. And what does it matter? The Exile killed those things before he killed Masters before he started to drain his opponents from the force he only relied on Kreia at that moment. And she clearly wasn't giving him god like powers.

Before the bombing of Dantooine, there were records of the Jedi. The Protocal droidlets you see them. . . It has Vandar and Vrook discussing how he is too powerful.

No it hasn't, Vrook says he's a mediocere jedi. Vandar says he's an average student but he has a gift.

They were saying he did something wrong, Again. Hardly speaks for him as a Jedi.

Vrook may have meant mediocre jedi, but in what way?

Anyways, I would like to reply to Glentract, but what's the damn point? Traya hasn't specified the layout and apparently the jedi are going to bumrush an onslaught of blaster bolts. Btw, Glentract, that is the effective accurate range of the weapon. 90 feet is pretty considerable for a repeating blaster rifle's effective accurate range. That's almost the length of the blue whale.

He beat three Sith Lords. . . That isn't bad.

Originally posted by Wesker
Vrook may have meant mediocre jedi, but in what way?

Anyways, I would like to reply to Glentract, but what's the damn point? Traya hasn't specified the layout and apparently the jedi are going to bumrush an onslaught of blaster bolts. Btw, Glentract, that is the effective accurate range of the weapon. 90 feet is pretty considerable for a repeating blaster rifle's effective accurate range. That's almost the length of the blue whale.

Well in how many ways could he have meant? Even Vandar called him average, its obvious he didn't really excel in anything but creating bonds with people.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
He beat three Sith Lords. . . That isn't bad.

Two of those can be contested. Kreia likely didn't do her best, and Sion was beaten by the power of talking.

Nihilus was only beaten because he was the Exile, and he's about the biggest unknown out there. Visas also possibly sacrifised herself to kill him, so that fight really means jack shit.

Oh, I agree. But we just don't know. It's one statement to go from, from a person who is a certified pessimist. Also, the Exile appears to have been a late bloomer among jedi, so to speak.

Could be, the disciple does say she could make a lightsaber swing like it was magical. But he only says this if the Exile is a female and he's in love with her.

Kavar also wanted to train the Exile he recognized the gift but even he does not speak about great skills. The greatest thing about the exile was creating force bonds, which is probably the entire reason for him being a wound in the force along with Nihilus his force bonds.

Okay then:

The Jedi have just jumped into the arena. Mace and Dooku talk, and Windu says:

"Each Jedi is worth a hundred of these droids, count."

"But what about a hundred HK droids, Windu?."

All the battle droids shut down and the HK's all come in through the exit, blasting the Jedi.

Well, the arena doors probably wouldn't let but maybe ten to twenty HK droids across come in firing. From there, they could potentially create two lines (One group kneeling, the others standing), and just **** things up. But the jedi are going to be spread out in a circle. This doesn't do much for the HKs unless they back into the exits and keep a defensive line, which will be penetrated.

I just watched the Documentary on AotC, George Lucas says, "In The Phantom Menace we see about 4 or 5 Jedi. In this on, we see about 4 or 5 hundred Jedi." That being said, the Jedi win on account of more fighters, and most of them more skilled fighters.

He said 4 or 5 hundred jedi? Wow. What an accurate statement. And of course he meant the numbers INSIDE of the arena, and not the jedi on the outside either. Huh. Congrats, you've totally solved the puzzle with this incredible and enlightening (Not to mention totally applicable and reliable) piece of information!

He said it while telling about the fight in the Geonosian Arena.

So STFU!

Damn, son. Don't get none on ya, now.

Is this sarcasm I see?

No way. My sarcasm is undetectable.

Ah. I see.

100.

101.

102.

103.

zOMftwinG0104!!1

OMFGWTFBBQ105!!!111

WtfruOMGi1067t!!

Originally posted by Wesker
Vrook may have meant mediocre jedi, but in what way?

Anyways, I would like to reply to Glentract, but what's the damn point? Traya hasn't specified the layout and apparently the jedi are going to bumrush an onslaught of blaster bolts. Btw, Glentract, that is the effective accurate range of the weapon. 90 feet is pretty considerable for a repeating blaster rifle's effective accurate range. That's almost the length of the blue whale.

Like I said, 90 feet can be covered in less then 2 seconds by a Jedi. Do you really think that the Jedi can't defend themselves from blaster bolts for two seconds or that the HK droids would be able to take down enough of the Jedi in two seconds to keep from being destroyed?

Glentract, does this look like force speeding to you?

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1130/blades6jt.gif

Well, they had to concentrate on the blaster fire. Jedi might be able to Force Speed that fast, but not against HKs spamming blasterfire.

Look at their feet. They are slowing down to avoid running into the droids. That wasn't their top speed.

Even if they don't use force speed and they are as slow as me it should take them less then 4 seconds to get to the HK droids. How many Jedi do you think could be killed in less then 4 seconds?

A lot. Ever been in a firefight, Glentract?

Not one in which the people charging towards people have glowsticks that can deflect enemy fire.

So let me get this straight...

200 jedi known for their weak performance in combat are going to run across this...

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/9682/moviebgdasdas8uk.jpg

... in 4 seconds while facing volleys of around 500 shots per trigger squeeze by experienced jedi killing HK47 droids firing from formation?

LMFAO!

Now you're just being purposely ignorant. The maximum range of the HK droids weapons is about 90 feet. No way would that take more then four seconds. The Jedi the equivalent of shields infront of them. It's very possible.

Death to Jedi!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Now you're just being purposely ignorant. The maximum range of the HK droids weapons is about 90 feet. No way would that take more then four seconds. The Jedi the equivalent of shields infront of them. It's very possible.

No, you're ignorant. Go and ask a WWII vet just how easy it is to charge across 90 feet of ground while being hammered at from 100 automatic weapons? Now compound this with running forward across MORE than 90 feet (Because while the effective maximun range is 90 feet, the effective damage range of the blaster is more than the length of the colliseum. And when you fire 500 rounds inside of a second, accuracy isn't exactly neccessary) while trying to block erratic saturation fire with a glowstick while not hacking up the jedi next to you.

Oh, and then there's the bullshit about it taking FOUR SECONDS to cross the colliseum. Wow. Wishful thinking, much? Please. That's a murderhole right there. Take a look at this:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2889/normalgeonosisarenabattle014wq.jpg

This animal is the size of a car (10 feet in length or more easily).

Look again at the colliseum:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/457/moviebgdasdas6hj.jpg

That's well over a few hundred car lengths, Glentract. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and say the animal was 10 feet across and the colliseum floor was only 100 carlengths, it would still be 1,000 feet at it's smallest, to cross inside of by your estimate FOUR SECONDS while under heavy fire from 500 rounds... per trigger squeeze.

You need to stop drinking. You're too young.

4 or 5 hundred, Jedi. . .

It is easier for a 4 hundred Jedi to run across 90 feet then one soldier doing that.

No, it isn't because there were only 212 jedi at Geonosis, dip.

You're calling George Lucas a dip now? But you made fun of Glentract for saying George Lucas was wrong! I feel a sig coming on!

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
You're calling George Lucas a dip now? But you made fun of Glentract for saying George Lucas was wrong! I feel a sig coming on!

Apparently you don't get it. GL doesn't give an exact number, and the AOTC novelisation, the manuals, and every EU source that talks about the Battle of Geonosis and the battle in the arena gives a figure of 200-212 jedi. In this case you've taken a glib statement from GL and made it into a concise fact. that's called taking it out of context.

Hmm I think the text on my sig will be,

Warning: Wesker thinks AotC book is a better source of information than George Lucas himself.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, how do you know if the effective damage range of the rifle is more then 90 feet?

Glentract, its time you learned something about firearms:

Maximum range is the absolute range a bullet can go (on average). For example, the maximum range of an M16A2 is 3,600 meters.

Maximum effective range is how far a bullet can go before it starts to experience bullet drop and/or wind distortion. The maximum effective range of an M16A2 is 550 meters (point target) and 800 meters (area target).

The distances listed on the Mandalorian repeaters in game are clearly listed as maximum effective range, and I'm going to wager that's area target, because aiming for point is implied in the sniping feat itself. Considering that in this case the maximum range of the weapon is 4.5 times the maximum effective area target range, we could assume that the Mandalorian repeater's maximum range would be 128 meters.

Of course, that's assuming it were a ballistic weapon. It's not. It does not experience bullet drop, and does not experience wind. It only burns out once something has connected and absorbed its concussive energy. So there's no telling how far a blaster bolt can go before it stops moving. Theoretically, it could go the entire length of the colliseum. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd entertain it. I don't think you do.



Is it? Same basic principles. Hell, rifles haven't changed in principle in over a hundred years. If anything, older rifles had LONGER maximum ranges. There's nothing to suggest that it is so "outdated" that it can't function for the purpose of this debate.



Game mechanics now? Cute. You also miss with a vibroblade at two feet. Is it outdated? zomG!



Actually, it's VERY possible that it does, as I've pointed out above. Welcome to the world of firearms, Glentract.



HK 47 is a sophisticated and unique assassin droid created by Darth Revan for the purpose of kicking righteous ass. Fed droids are mindless and pathetic drones that are only harmful when they accidentally shoot in the right direction.



You mean Nai's unproven hypothesis? Are you basing your argument on his old theory? Please. For one, his firing rate figures are contradicted by the movies themselves, including the animation I provided. Normal battle droids do not fire that fast. They have regular carbines. And the idea of "thousands of droids" is a bit inaccurate, considering that there was a war waging on outside of the arena and what we saw in the movie was only a small portion of the Federation forces in that arena. And again, none of those droids compare with an HK armed with a Mandalorian repeater.



No, you're wrong. HK's with the repeaters have a MUCH higher degree of discipline and tactical training, and they have a weapon that pumps out a hell of a lot of ammo in very little time. Also, btw... you DO know that the Mandalorian Repeater has a holographic pop up aiming device, right? Watch it next time you play. And also in this case, the HK droids are coming from one direction, able to fall into effective formation. They won't be bumbling about like morons, firing off shots like drunkards unlike Fed droids. Not the same fight.



And they will be able to easily hit back at the 100 HK droids? You're missing the point; for each volley, jedi are going down. That's less and less bolts deflected back. Which means that the chances of more lucky deflections drops drastically. But the odds of hitting back across an arena well over 1000 feet (Likely closer to 2500 if I may take a guess based on the image) man-sized droids is pretty damn poor. And if the droids are equipped with personal droid shields, it won't even hurt the damn thing. Ineffective riposte.



It's stated clearly in Shatterpoint and visible in the movies that the jedi lost their asses because of the inferior Niman and because of poor military planning and organization. Likewise, in this scenario they are up against very dangerous opponents with heavy weaponry and the advantage of effective placement. You obviously underestimate proper tactics versus numbers.



Again, Nai's theory does not equal validated fact. And you're missing something here... any instances where the droids where force pushed it was VERY close. We're talking 10 meters and under if that, and they had to stop defending and slashing to do it. I wouldn't call that "HK droids into junk piles", Glentract. But I might call your accessment "poor".



The jedi are ****ed.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Hmm I think the text on my sig will be,

Warning: Wesker thinks AotC book is a better source of information than George Lucas himself.

And mine ill be "Warning: Guy LeDouche is a moron. He apparently thinks when Gl says a random, none specific number it's absolute fact."

Stfu, kid.

Where does GL say there were 400 Jedi in the arena?

Saying STFU to kids. Whatever helps you sleep at night dude.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Where does GL say there were 400 Jedi in the arena?

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Saying STFU to kids. Whatever helps you sleep at night dude.

That would be your mom.

Oh.. snap!

lmao... how corny.

Originally posted by Wesker
Glentract, its time you learned something about firearms:

Maximum range is the absolute range a bullet can go (on average). For example, the maximum range of an M16A2 is 3,600 meters.

Maximum effective range is how far a bullet can go before it starts to experience bullet drop and/or wind distortion. The maximum effective range of an M16A2 is 550 meters (point target) and 800 meters (area target).

The distances listed on the Mandalorian repeaters in game are clearly listed as maximum effective range, and I'm going to wager that's area target, because aiming for point is implied in the sniping feat itself. Considering that in this case the maximum range of the weapon is 4.5 times the maximum effective area target range, we could assume that the Mandalorian repeater's maximum range would be 128 meters.

Of course, that's assuming it were a ballistic weapon. It's not. It does not experience bullet drop, and does not experience wind. It only burns out once something has connected and absorbed its concussive energy. So there's no telling how far a blaster bolt can go before it stops moving. Theoretically, it could go the entire length of the colliseum. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, then I'd entertain it. I don't think you do.

Great argument, but flawed in the end, as I do have evidence to the contrary. The Essential Guide to Weapons puts the maximum range of the T-21 at 300 meters and the maximum effective range at 150 meters. Apparently the difference is not as great for blasters as it is for bullets.

That implies that the maximum range of the Mandalorian gun is 56 meters, far from your porjected 128 meters.

Originally posted by Wesker
Is it? Same basic principles. Hell, rifles haven't changed in principle in over a hundred years. If anything, older rifles had LONGER maximum ranges. There's nothing to suggest that it is so "outdated" that it can't function for the purpose of this debate.

Are you telling me that you don't think rifles will change in the next 4,000 years? And name one old rifle that had greater range then an M16 with sources to prove it.

Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, it's VERY possible that it does, as I've pointed out above. Welcome to the world of firearms, Glentract.

Proven wrong above.

Originally posted by Wesker
HK 47 is a sophisticated and unique assassin droid created by Darth Revan for the purpose of kicking righteous ass. Fed droids are mindless and pathetic drones that are only harmful when they accidentally shoot in the right direction.

The first model, yes, mindless drone. Not the Super battle droids though. Super Battle droids are capable of firing up to six rounds per second and there were far more then a hundred of those at Geonosis. Whi didn't the Jedi lose to those there? Also note that at Geonosis there were destroyer droids which fire much faster then these HK droids can and those numbered at least 20 if I remember correctly, but I can't check because I can't find my ep2 copy.

Originally posted by Wesker
You mean Nai's unproven hypothesis? Are you basing your argument on his old theory? Please. For one, his firing rate figures are contradicted by the movies themselves, including the animation I provided. Normal battle droids do not fire that fast. They have regular carbines. And the idea of "thousands of droids" is a bit inaccurate, considering that there was a war waging on outside of the arena and what we saw in the movie was only a small portion of the Federation forces in that arena. And again, none of those droids compare with an HK armed with a Mandalorian repeater.

Even if we only saw 1% of the Federation force in the arena thats 10,000 droids as it was stated that there were a million droids at Geonosis.

Again, Super Battle droids numbered at least a hundred that attacked the Jedi. These fire faster then Mandalorian repeaters and have a very high accuracy. That's also not counting the many Destroyer Droids and heavy weapons that the Geonosians used.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're wrong. HK's with the repeaters have a MUCH higher degree of discipline and tactical training, and they have a weapon that pumps out a hell of a lot of ammo in very little time. Also, btw... you DO know that the Mandalorian Repeater has a holographic pop up aiming device, right? Watch it next time you play. And also in this case, the HK droids are coming from one direction, able to fall into effective formation. They won't be bumbling about like morons, firing off shots like drunkards unlike Fed droids. Not the same fight.

The Super Battle droids fought on par with anything we've seen from an HK droid. They were accurate, fire as fast as HK droids, and have better range. There were more Super Battle Droids at Geonosis then there are HK droids in this thread and the Hk droids don't have all the help that the Super Battle Droids at Geonosis had.

Originally posted by Wesker
And they will be able to easily hit back at the 100 HK droids? You're missing the point; for each volley, jedi are going down. That's less and less bolts deflected back. Which means that the chances of more lucky deflections drops drastically. But the odds of hitting back across an arena well over 1000 feet (Likely closer to 2500 if I may take a guess based on the image) man-sized droids is pretty damn poor. And if the droids are equipped with personal droid shields, it won't even hurt the damn thing. Ineffective riposte.

The idea that more then one or two Jedi will go down in each volley is unproven. The maximum range of the blaster bolts is 56m, so we won't see the Jedi deflecting anything back from 1000 feet.

Originally posted by Wesker
It's stated clearly in Shatterpoint and visible in the movies that the jedi lost their asses because of the inferior Niman and because of poor military planning and organization. Likewise, in this scenario they are up against very dangerous opponents with heavy weaponry and the advantage of effective placement. You obviously underestimate proper tactics versus numbers.

Janus, you obviously underestimate a Jedi's ability to block blaster bolts or to close the gap between the MAXIMUM RANGE of the HK's guns in less then 8 seconds even if they don't use force speed, half that if they do.

Lets compare the droids in ep2 and the droids here.

The Droids at Geonosis had the following for them:

- Massive numbers advantage,

- Better Guns on Super Battle Droids(fire as fast, if not faster, and better range),

- Heavy Weapons(like the sonic canons we saw in the arena. One shot took out something like 3 Jedi),

- Geonosian allies,

- General Grevious supposedly killed mutiple Jedi during this battle, so a large help that the HK droids will not have.

The HK droids have the following for them:

- More coordinated attack force

- Better formation

The HK Droids lack:

- Numerical supperiority

- Heavy Weapons

- A Jedi killer named Grevious who would have otherwise killed mutiple Jedi during this battle

- Geonosian allies

- Guns that have as range or rate of fire(for the SBD).

I don't see what makes you think the HK droids have the advantage.

Originally posted by Wesker
Again, Nai's theory does not equal validated fact. And you're missing something here... any instances where the droids where force pushed it was VERY close. We're talking 10 meters and under if that, and they had to stop defending and slashing to do it. I wouldn't call that "HK droids into junk piles", Glentract. But I might call your accessment "poor".



The jedi are ****ed.

The fact is that not all of the Jedi will be constantly deflecting blaster bolts. Only the ones in the front will need to do that. Here is how I see the battle.

HK HK HK HK HK
HK HK HK HK HK

JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD JD
JD JD JD JD JD
JD JD JD JD


Forgive the simplicity of the example. Each HK represents 10 HK droids. Each JD represents 10 Jedi.

Notice that there is at least once Jedi in the front line for every single HK droid firing at them. The ones in the back are effectively protected. The ones in the second or third row can afford to take a second or two to force push a few droids over or throw their lightsabers at the HK droids in a simlar to fashion that we saw in JA by Jaden Korr.

Jedi win.

Janus, George Lucas said it himself. I trust him over you. Jedi win, HK Units lose.

Also, Janus, If there indeed were only 400 Jedi in the order as you oh so sarcasticly stated before, and only 212 Jedi were sent to Geonosis. There were 16 survivors of the Arena. Do the math. 212 minus 16 is 196. Take that and subract it from 400, it's 204. If you think there were only 204 Jedi in the order, you are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Also, Janus, If there indeed were only 400 Jedi in the order as you oh so sarcasticly stated before, and only 212 Jedi were sent to Geonosis. There were 16 survivors of the Arena. Do the math. 212 minus 16 is 196. Take that and subract it from 400, it's 204. If you think there were only 204 Jedi in the order, you are sadly mistaken.
You're an idiot. I never claimed there were only 400 jedi in the entire order. You need to learn how to read.

You need to know when to STFU, when George Lucas says it, he's right, you aren't.

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
You need to know when to STFU, when George Lucas says it, he's right, you aren't.
You need to know when to stfu. If an architect says his building is "about four or five hundred feet tall" that's not a definate answer. But the manuals, novelisations, reference guides and such that say 200 are more concrete. If GL had said "There are exactly 400 jedi in the arena", it'd be definate. A vague answer isn't definate.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6558/stfu3av.jpg

Haha. Wow, you are so lame. You are 23 years old and have about 40,000 posts on this site. I don't care what you say, because this shit is just too funny.

for the last time, where the **** does GL say there were 400 Jedi in Geonosis??

Originally posted by Guy LeDouche
Haha. Wow, you are so lame. You are 23 years old and have about 40,000 posts on this site. I don't care what you say, because this shit is just too funny.

Actually, I have 13,000 over the course of an entire year. And there's mods who are older than me with four times that many posts, so I'd watch what I said if I were you.

Janus, don't pay him any attention. I wouldn't be surprised if he went Numan's way.

Yeah, he's really not worth my time.

Haha. Man this stuff is wicked funny. Seriously, get a life. I realize this place is filled with grown men losers like you that have no lives.
It really is quite funny.

Then why the hell are you here, smartass?

Yeah, uh I'm 23 and use the word noob. I tell 14 year olds to STFU because it's cool. I'm like, pretty much to debating god when it comes to these teenagers. I'm so cool.

Originally posted by Faunus
Then why the hell are you here, smartass?

Don't have anything to do right now. Don't have band practice or anything.

Yeah, uh I'm 8 and use the term ''grown men losers.'' I tell people smarter than I am - whose ages I don't know - to get a life because I hate my own. I'm like, pretty much ''to'' idiot when it comes to these old peoples. I'm so cool.

Haha. You're off by 6 years. Look at his profile it is 23 years old. I hate my own life? I love my life.

He is, yeah. But do you know how old I am? Or 99% of the other members on this board? Nope.

And if you love your life, you should be secure enough to not try and bash others, as that's usually attributed to the ''Bully's Crisis.'' Damn. . . I sound like Big Bird.

That's why whenever I post something, I get bashed when not even trying to bash another. I'm just defending myself from someone else.

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