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Manchester Black

It is often stated that, the worst acts of evil are done under the guise of righteousness. This truly describes the menace that is Manchester Black. Believed to be from the United Kingdom, Manchester Black is an advanced telekinetic and telepath, who can manipulate the minds of men, and therefore - control reality. His origins unclear, the raven-haired Mancherster Black was the leader of The Elite. A small squad of "crimefighters" which distinguished itself by killing every evildoer it crossed. The Elites particular manner of dispensing justice brought them into conflict with Superman. The Man of Tomorrow defeated his opponents, and Manchester Black and his cronies faced justice. Incarcerated, Black was released by Lex Luthor, the President of the United States of America.
Well aware of Black's awesome powers, Luthor found a sinister new ally in his war against Superman. With Black's abilities, Luthor uncovered Superman's secret identity. He also, with the help of Black, received forewarning of Imperiex's attack on Earth. And when Superman and the Justice League learned of President Luthor's treachery, Black shielded Luthor from a powerful mind-probe conducted by the Martian Manhunter. Earning his freedom, Black enacted his own plan against Superman...perhaps the worst threat imaginable, for the Man of Steel...and his home city of Metropolis.

Sadistic and cynical, Manchester Black waged a vicious war against Superman. He believed that Superman was "corny" and "unreal". The ideals championed and espoused by the Man of Steel stood in direct contrast to the grim, gritty environments of Manchester Black, and seeped into his extremist attitudes and agenda. In a short time, Black managed to uncover Superman's entire inner circle. His vast telepathic powers gave Black incite into Superman's family, friends, and associates. Soon, everyone in contact with our hero found themselves in great danger. From America, the world, and beyond, super-villains converged upon Superman's private life. The Atomic Skull, The Puzzler, Mongul, Riot, The Hellgrammite, Bizarro, The Master Jailer, Neutron, The Prankster, Silver Banshee, Metallo, Evil Star, Quakemaster, Firefist, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Ratcatcher, The Terra-Man, The Bug-Eyed Bandit, and Rock were sent after Superman himself, as well as his inner circle. As if this collection of super-villains wasn't great enough - Manchester Black unleashed an intergalactic horde of villains to face Superman. Easily numbering in the hundreds, this climactic battle between the rogues and Superman took the Greatest Hero on Earth to his limits.

Finally tracking down Manchester Black to his and Lois's apartment, Superman confronted his arch foe over the dead body of Lois Lane. Manchester Black, in a deadly game of chicken, prodded the impeccable Man of Might to slay him. Killing Manchester Black would have proven Superman to be no different than his sworn enemies. Despite the temptation, Superman realized that Lois Lane was alive and well, and that Manchester Black - the malicious rogue that he was - could not dissuade Superman from his core values. Black, embittered by his defeat, left in seclusion; revealing to Superman that Lois was alive and well, and wound up in a motel room. Reflecting on his failed attempt to darken the Man of Steel, Manchester Black finally respected his rival, for being the hero everyone respected and worshipped him for. Erasing Superman's secret identity from the mind of Lex Luthor, as well as from Luthor's computer database, Manchester Black apparently committed suicide, by destroying the hotel room in a fiery explosion. Superman believes he will never again encounter this particular foe. Lois Lane believes otherwise. Whatever the truth, Manchester Black has attained a level of infamy only a handful have descended to. The Joker, Neron, The Ultra-Humanite, and Imperiex are now joined by the man known as Manchester Black - one of the most vile forms of humanity to ever infest the amazing world of Superman.

Black has returned a few times!! actually

Xavier is not a very powerful telepath for DC's patterns. He needs machines to amplify his power while MM can connect his mind with almost the entire planet without any tech help.

WTF happened to his head?

He commited suicide. I believe I'll check that.

And he's still able to live after that? Or was he just stuck in that position when he killed himself?

He just stucked in that position but it seems now that the whole thing was fake (or not) and he's still alive. Or at least his spirit.

He doesn't need a machine to go global you know. He was scanning the cosmos with lifeform with his TP way before he began using cerebro. The only reason he use is it 1)makes TP easier like preferring a car to walking 2) Magneto or Marvel specifically messed with the EM spectrum globally that blocks or limits telepath all over Marvel Earth..

That's true but it's also bullshit he will never be on MM level not even close.

MB is a TK user. Prof x isn't right?

There both powerful telepaths so wouldn't the TK user have the advantage?

Originally posted by Diunic
That's true but it's also bullshit he will never be on MM level not even close.

What do you mean he's not on his level. Cassandra Nova in his body killed half of the shiar empire for crying out loud.

But Manchester would win this fight. He's a top tier TP, but not only that, he also has TK and more durable.

Then we agree.

I mean that because DC telepaths are more powerful and have less limitations than Marvel's ones

I probably won't on being more powerful but having less limitations, yup

But then you're almost falling in contradiction but I understood you and almost agree.

Well you see, as great as DC is. Marvel is the home of the telepaths. The only great telepaths i can see from DC is quite a handful: (MM, Manchester, Brainwave 2, Despero, PC Darkseid, Hector Hammond aka mr. potatohead)

While Marvel has

Phoenix
Cassandra Nova
Nate Grey (well he's deceased but i don't see anyone from DC trumping him unless it's PC Darkseid)
Cable (current and god)
Rachel Grey
Exodus
Mastermind 2
Sersi
Emma frost
Xavier
Moondragon
Shadowking
Galactus(oh yeah)
etc

and that's just to name some barring the ones that were lost like Maddelyne pryor, Stryfe, Ego, etc.

People often forget that the first beings to feel the presence of Akhenaten were Phoenix and Xavier. And that was using no Cerebro.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Well you see, as great as DC is. Marvel is the home of the telepaths. The only great telepaths i can see from DC is quite a handful: (MM, Manchester, Brainwave 2, Despero, PC Darkseid, Hector Hammond aka mr. potatohead)

While Marvel has

Phoenix
Cassandra Nova
Nate Grey (well he's deceased but i don't see anyone from DC trumping him unless it's PC Darkseid)
Cable (current and god)
Rachel Grey
Exodus
Mastermind 2
Sersi
Emma frost
Xavier
Moondragon
Shadowking
Galactus(oh yeah)
etc

and that's just to name some barring the ones that were lost like Maddelyne pryor, Stryfe, Ego, etc.


I think that had to due with the orgins of superpowers in marvel. The mutant dynamic allows for a lot more superpowered individuals and to be honest there are just so many power sets to hand out. So you tend to get a lot of variations on the same theme.

Manchester Black is i believe equal to the MM because he is able to fight him off anyway, i dont think X can handle him.

I agree, that's what I said I also think MB is on MM level and that Xavier is below them. Everyone who reads not only one but both (DC and Marvel) knows that or at least had this sensation.

Read them but disagree. MM only seems to get his ass handed to him by powerful telepaths. THat rarely ever happens to Xavier. Not to mention Xavier does things I've never seen MM do or any DC psyhcic.

such as?

Never seen any DC telepath surfing the Astral plane or doing battle on it. Not to mention thanks to X-Man Xavier should be able to manifest his astral armor and weapons in the real world.

Originally posted by Diunic
Xavier is not a very powerful telepath for DC's patterns. He needs machines to amplify his power while MM can connect his mind with almost the entire planet without any tech help. Xavier easily connected himself to the whole people of the Skrull and channeled all their combined feelings past Galactus's mental shields into his mind...without Cerabro/a.

Xavier connected himself with the whole population of a Shiar planet and directed all the mental energy into a psychic blast, that defeated Ego...without Cerebro/a.

Since there are Phoenix and her children + Franklin Richards, Xavier is perhaps no longer the strongest telepath on Marvel earth, but he is certainly still the most powerful (combination of strength, experience and talent).

Btw, the only time we saw Xavier going all out and using his full potential, though admittedly unwillingly, ended with the creation of Onslaught. Neither Jean, Cable, Franklin or Nate were able to do anything against his telepathy.

Does Manchester Black have any comparable feats at his disposal?

He mind controlled Superman, so that should put him in the top tier.......

I won't spoke with marvel fanboys who doesn't read DC or only does that sometimes cause I read the both. If you never saw a DC telepath in a Astral Plane you have to much to learn. And of course you can't want to see a DC telepath in a Marvel like astral plane. Are different universes. Even Supes who is no telepath fought in a Astral Plane more than once.

Using T-VO, the cable programmer!!

Originally posted by Diunic
I won't spoke with marvel fanboys who doesn't read DC or only does that sometimes cause I read the both. If you never saw a DC telepath in a Astral Plane you have to much to learn. And of course you can't want to see a DC telepath in a Marvel like astral plane. Are different universes. Even Supes who is no telepath fought in a Astral Plane more than once.

??? I understood some of that.

Anywho you really haven't said anything to qaulify your claims. You simply said. "DC telepaths are the Uberest any one who disagrees doesn't read enough comics." So you really aren't in a very good position yourself.

Originally posted by Warmonger
??? I understood some of that.

Anywho you really haven't said anything to qaulify your claims. You simply said. "DC telepaths are the Uberest any one who disagrees doesn't read enough comics." So you really aren't in a very good position yourself.

Originally posted by Diunic
I won't spoke with marvel fanboys who doesn't read DC or only does that sometimes cause I read the both. If you never saw a DC telepath in a Astral Plane you have to much to learn. And of course you can't want to see a DC telepath in a Marvel like astral plane. Are different universes. Even Supes who is no telepath fought in a Astral Plane more than once. 1) Isn't refusing to debate with someone who just expressed his point of view a little childish, especially in a debating forum?

2)In my last post i directly reacted to your comment about MM being able to connect himself to a whole planet, while Prof. X would need amplifying machines...and i proved you wrong, which by the way is evidence, that you are not as well informed about Charles and Marvel as you think you are.

3) It's true, that it is difficult to compare two universes in which some things tend to work differently, such as tp.
But think about it: When in DC the astral plane is so easy to reach, that it is possible for even a nontelepath to gain access to it, what can a telepath, coming from a universe where this is not possible, do in a DC astral plain?!
So Marvel universe might be the telepathic equivalent to Krypton, while DC is the telepathic equivalent to earth. Perhaps a rather drastic example, but i think it perfectly shows what i want to express, even when the dimensions are admittedly a little off scale.

Originally posted by wannabe
1) Isn't refusing to debate with someone who just expressed his point of view a little childish, especially in a debating forum?

2)In my last post i directly reacted to your comment about MM being able to connect himself to a whole planet, while Prof. X would need amplifying machines...and i proved you wrong, which by the way is evidence, that you are not as well informed about Charles and Marvel as you think you are.

3) It's true, that it is difficult to compare two universes in which some things tend to work differently, such as tp.
But think about it: When in DC the astral plane is so easy to reach, that it is possible for even a nontelepath to gain access to it, what can a telepath, coming from a universe where this is not possible, do in a DC astral plain?!
So Marvel universe might be the telepathic equivalent to Krypton, while DC is the telepathic equivalent to earth. Perhaps a rather drastic example, but i think it perfectly shows what i want to express, even when the dimensions are admittedly a little off scale. Superman is a telepath/telekinetic though. It's in his powerset, though manifests in oddball ways.
You'll notice that even before getting his solar powers, Connor, from Superman's DNA, has TK, for example.
If you go back to the Byrne issues, they also talk about his telekinetic field and how he extends it over things in his grasp so they are protected.

can an MU telepath controll a whole galaxy with his brain like Fate did or contact or at least be in contact with every member of the universe like MM?

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman is a telepath/telekinetic though. It's in his powerset, though manifests in oddball ways.
You'll notice that even before getting his solar powers, Connor, from Superman's DNA, has TK, for example.
If you go back to the Byrne issues, they also talk about his telekinetic field and how he extends it over things in his grasp so they are protected. WOW!!! Is there anything Supes can not do???
However, that even proves, that Diunic, to whom i reacted, is not just not well informed about Marvel, but not as well informed about DC as he thinks as well.

Originally posted by Mider
can an MU telepath controll a whole galaxy with his brain like Fate did or contact or at least be in contact with every member of the universe like MM? MAAAN, to the whole universe!? To millions of galaxies with millions of worlds with billions of people?!
Not even Phoenix or any of the cosmics in Marvel did such a thing. Logically MM should be absolutely UNBEATABLE in the DC universe.

However, if telepathy is equally difficult to perform in both universes, if MM did the things you said, and if MB is indeed in MM's league, than I, a Charles Xavier fan, admit, that the Prof will be horribly beaten by MB.

(*Sigh*...and i thought it a Marvel trait to sometimes give it's characters absolutely ridiculous feats)

it wasnt MM who controlled a galaxy it was Dr Fate MM didnt controll the universe only connected with it or something.

Originally posted by wannabe
MAAAN, to the whole universe!? To millions of galaxies with millions of worlds with billions of people?!
Not even Phoenix or any of the cosmics in Marvel did such a thing. Logically MM should be absolutely UNBEATABLE in the DC universe.

However, if telepathy is equally difficult to perform in both universes, if MM did the things you said, and if MB is indeed in MM's league, than I, a Charles Xavier fan, admit, that the Prof will be horribly beaten by MB.

(*Sigh*...and i thought it a Marvel trait to sometimes give it's characters absolutely ridiculous feats)

Not at all, both universes share ridiculous, illogical feats.

(*Sigh*...and i thought it a Marvel trait to sometimes give it's characters absolutely ridiculous feats)


But didn't he said fate.....cause i've never seen manhunter did such a thing.

Originally posted by wannabe
WOW!!! Is there anything Supes can not do??? Not a lot... the current one can't run back and forth through time at will, like he did Pre Crisis, but I doubt it's far off. Superman's a beast.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman is a telepath/telekinetic though. It's in his powerset, though manifests in oddball ways.
You'll notice that even before getting his solar powers, Connor, from Superman's DNA, has TK, for example.
If you go back to the Byrne issues, they also talk about his telekinetic field and how he extends it over things in his grasp so they are protected.

Superman's a telepath???? TK perhaps but telepath?

The closest resembling that would be TVO but that's not actual telepathy.

Originally posted by Mider
it wasnt MM who controlled a galaxy it was Dr Fate MM didnt controll the universe only connected with it or something. I understood that! But what does it matter?
Imagine what kind of psionic energy would be necessary to stretch your mind over the whole universe and then to connect yourself to all people!!!
Just like i said, not even Phoenix or any of the cosmics ever did that in Marvel.

why you rolling your eyes? if you dont mind me asking

Originally posted by Mider
why you rolling your eyes? if you dont mind me asking To underline how ridiculous i consider this feat of MM in relation to what he usually does telepathically.

can X put his life force into other beings? thats how manchester black came back to life after shooting himself or whatever or before dieing he put his essance into his sis Vera Black

Originally posted by Mider
can X put his life force into other beings? thats how manchester black came back to life after shooting himself or whatever or before dieing he put his essance into his sis Vera Black He never did such a thing, but Shadowking, Cassandra Nova, Jean and Emma did. So we can safely assume, that Charles is able to do so as well.
Why do you ask?

The answer is Cassandra Nova, his twin sister..........wait isn't Onslaught technically just a byproduct of his mind or somethings?

how did Manchester Black get Eve out of the source wall? She is a goddess or something and she helped him start destroying london anyone now about her?

No, sorry!

That MM feat where he connect to the whole univerise is just PIS and I can't believe that some of the people on this forum can't see that. The best part about this is that the same people who say that MM can connect to every person in the universe will also say that MM can't beat supes. well Prof. X takes this no problem

The old fanboys are never reasonable. MM is below Supes (Supes is relatively resistant to telepath) in terms of raw power yet he's far beyond Xavier in telepath power. Nobody said MM connected w/ the entire universe he did w/ the entire Earth but people might not know the difference. His feats are far beyond Xavier ones (who relies on tech). I prefer Marvel but I read DC too, the problem is those who only read Marvel or those who are Marvel maniacs fanboys. No matter how many times we prove some DC character superiority the Marvel fanboys won't accept it. Xavier would not have his status of great telepath on DC Earth

Why is it that the only measure people use for a TPs power and effectiveness is mind control? That's only one aspect of a TPs' abilities, and certainly not the measure of their effectiveness in a fight against a single opponent. The amount of control they exihibit when traversing the mind scape is just as, if not more important.

But people have to understand that telepathy is different in Marvel and DC. In DC the Astral projection or Spiritual Ego is not as important as in Marvel and that doesn't mean it can't be done it's just two different multiverses.

Not everyone in Marvel can go Astral. It's something exclusive to those who are skilled and powerful enough or high end magicians.

In DC, superman can go to the Astral Plane yet MM can't .................................................................

MM is in the astral plane right now while his body is on Lex's machine.
He's been in contact the whole time.

is there a MM mini right now right?

Originally posted by Diunic
The old fanboys are never reasonable. MM is below Supes (Supes is relatively resistant to telepath) in terms of raw power yet he's far beyond Xavier in telepath power. Nobody said MM connected w/ the entire universe he did w/ the entire Earth but people might not know the difference. His feats are far beyond Xavier ones (who relies on tech). I prefer Marvel but I read DC too, the problem is those who only read Marvel or those who are Marvel maniacs fanboys. No matter how many times we prove some DC character superiority the Marvel fanboys won't accept it. Xavier would not have his status of great telepath on DC Earth

You really aren't being all that reasonable either and just come off as a DC fanboy. Like I said qualify your claims with somethingand maybe people will take you seriously.

isn't their something on Marvel eath that limits the power or range of telepaths? Well I think that the whole Prof. X reading the thoughts of every one of the eight billion skulls on their home planet then sending them to Galactus though his mental defences it pretty awsome and above what I've seen MM do and if black is his level then Prof. X wins. (of course that is the only time I've seen X do anything like that)

Originally posted by Diunic
The old fanboys are never reasonable. MM is below Supes (Supes is relatively resistant to telepath) in terms of raw power yet he's far beyond Xavier in telepath power. Nobody said MM connected w/ the entire universe he did w/ the entire Earth but people might not know the difference. His feats are far beyond Xavier ones (who relies on tech). I prefer Marvel but I read DC too, the problem is those who only read Marvel or those who are Marvel maniacs fanboys. No matter how many times we prove some DC character superiority the Marvel fanboys won't accept it. Xavier would not have his status of great telepath on DC Earth OHO! So MM never conneced himself to the whole universe?! I had to rely on the proclamations of a better DC knower than I am when i admitted, that an MB on MM's level would beat Prof.X. With this new information the situation severely changes, though!

Again...Charles connected himself to the whole population of the Skrull homeworld and channeled all their feelings past Galactus's mental shields into his mind and he did the same thing with a Shiar world's population to defeat Ego - without the help of any psionic amplifier!!!
He only uses Cerebra, because it's less straining, just like you would use a car instead of walking to get to the next town. Of course you could walk and get there, but why should you, when there is a less difficult and faster way?

PLEASE give us some feat's of MM, that prove he (and thus MB) is far above Xavier's level and you are not just a DC fanboy!!!

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Not everyone in Marvel can go Astral. It's something exclusive to those who are skilled and powerful enough or high end magicians.

In DC, superman can go to the Astral Plane yet MM can't ................................................................. What?
They both can do it.

I haven't seen anything from MM besides the one from JLA with Dawn.

Sorry you'll misunderstood me. DC is shit next to Marvel for me. Marvel is better. I'll give you an example MM one time connected himself with the entire Earth, that is a feat Prof. X is unable to accomplish without Cerebra and etc... If somebody wanna call me a ****ing fanboy do me a favor and call me a Marvel fanboy.

Plus I must say that when I post something I say it because I think it's the truth backed by ten years reading comics Marvel and DC. I'm not always right, yet I believe MM to be above Xavier. And one of the reason why DC was my favorite only on the first two years reading comics is because in a general way DC's major characters are too damn powerful. While the Marvel's characters and mythology are much more interesting to me.

Xavier has too much restrictions on his telepathy. He's very powerful but almost always (I mean sometimes) it seems that something is incapacitating him from solve relatively simple situations that other lesser telepaths would solve.

wow i had to get all cuaght up... first thing first..MM is more powerful than superman, superman has said so three times by my account....twice i remember off the top of my head. JLA: trial by fire, and Superman: Sacrifice....in both those publications, in a round about way, he said that MM was the most powerful being on Earth.

Also, if anyone is a reader of both companies you'll know that DC is generally more powerful than Marvel even if hardened fanboys dont wanna accept it. While MU has mutants to fall back on, DC guys are usually, aliens, gods, magically empowered, or ppl who fell in a vat of chemicals. what i mean by that is the only time power levels become somewhat of a stalemate is when we are talking about cosmic entites and uber magical other worldly beings.

but as for Manchester Black and charley, come on ppl MB is way more powerful, this guy doesnt have an ounce of magic in him, yet he still bypassed superman's invulnerability and lobotomized him. by literally using TK to shift around his grey matter and cuased him to convulse...that is til his dumb ass thought that gloating was a good idea and started bragging and allowed supes to recover. MM used his vast TP to manipulate the entire Middle East, and forced them to be peaceful in one afternoon(Also in Trial by fire). and he did this on a whim..YES without the aid of tech.. and we're talking millions of ppl BTW..MM has also stated in Morrsion's JLA run that he can touch every mind in the galaxy, and given enuff time, the whole universe. and tho this is a dead horse being beaten he did mind wipe 70 just as powerful telepaths(white martians)to think that they were ordinary humans, who he later killed single handledly BTW as Fernis. and let me also point out that Onslaught was a combo of both X and magneto's psyche so that doesnt get any major props from me... but all in all MB trumps charley hands down...not becuase o think MB is a more powerful TP, but Bcuz he has TK to boot

i guess the reason onslaught is so powerful is cause of when he got the power of onslaught and franklin richards did he beat them to get those powers or what happend. so would Manchester Black be able to bypass the magical power of the gem of cyttorak and remove it? or whatever bypass the magic metal and get into his brain. unsure would he be able to do all the stuff that X did in the comics unknown but i dont know if X can do the stuff MM said he could do.

Originally posted by Diunic
Sorry you'll misunderstood me. DC is shit next to Marvel for me. Marvel is better. I'll give you an example MM one time connected himself with the entire Earth, that is a feat Prof. X is unable to accomplish without Cerebra and etc... If somebody wanna call me a ****ing fanboy do me a favor and call me a Marvel fanboy. Ok, so you're not a DC fanboy - granted!

But do i really have to post it a third time...
Charles connected himself to the entirepopulation of the Skrull homeworld AND channeled all their feelings past Galactus's mental shields into his mind and he did the same thing with a Shiar world's population to defeat Ego - WITHOUT THE HELP OF ANY PSIONIC AMPLIFIER LIKE CEREBRA!!!
He only uses Cerebra, because it's less straining, just like you would use a car instead of walking to get to the next town. Of course you could walk and get there, but why should you, when there is a less difficult and faster way?
On Marvel earth (just the planet itself) telepathy is more difficult to perform for EVERY telepath, because Magneto messed around with the magnetosphere to achieve this exactly.
Originally posted by Diunic
Xavier has too much restrictions on his telepathy. He's very powerful but almost always (I mean sometimes) it seems that something is incapacitating him from solve relatively simple situations that other lesser telepaths would solve. His restrictions are mostly of ethical nature or simply plot devices to prevent the most powerful teep of earth from solving a problem within three or five panels, which would be rather boring. In this forum there are no such restrictions and luckily we have also a lot of nonrestricted feats of Charles like his fight against Dark Phoenix or those i mentioned above, to see his capabilities.

So why exactly do you think MM is a better telepath than Xavier again?

Because in ten years reading DC and Marvel I saw that DC' characters are the most powerful, except for the nigh-omnipotents cosmic/mystic as Manjaro said. But I don't think you're giving the exact importance to Magneto, he bothers the telepaths but don't really make them less powerful. If I had to talk about feats maybe Xavier could be better TP because MM is too powerful to rely just on TP. Back to the topic even if Xavier was above MB in TP he would lose pretty badly. MB would handle his TP for enough time to behead X with his TK.

Originally posted by manjaro
wow i had to get all cuaght up... first thing first..MM is more powerful than superman, superman has said so three times by my account....twice i remember off the top of my head. JLA: trial by fire, and Superman: Sacrifice....in both those publications, in a round about way, he said that MM was the most powerful being on Earth.

Also, if anyone is a reader of both companies you'll know that DC is generally more powerful than Marvel even if hardened fanboys dont wanna accept it. While MU has mutants to fall back on, DC guys are usually, aliens, gods, magically empowered, or ppl who fell in a vat of chemicals. what i mean by that is the only time power levels become somewhat of a stalemate is when we are talking about cosmic entites and uber magical other worldly beings.

but as for Manchester Black and charley, come on ppl MB is way more powerful, this guy doesnt have an ounce of magic in him, yet he still bypassed superman's invulnerability and lobotomized him. by literally using TK to shift around his grey matter and cuased him to convulse...that is til his dumb ass thought that gloating was a good idea and started bragging and allowed supes to recover. MM used his vast TP to manipulate the entire Middle East, and forced them to be peaceful in one afternoon(Also in Trial by fire). and he did this on a whim..YES without the aid of tech.. and we're talking millions of ppl BTW..MM has also stated in Morrsion's JLA run that he can touch every mind in the galaxy, and given enuff time, the whole universe. and tho this is a dead horse being beaten he did mind wipe 70 just as powerful telepaths(white martians)to think that they were ordinary humans, who he later killed single handledly BTW as Fernis. and let me also point out that Onslaught was a combo of both X and magneto's psyche so that doesnt get any major props from me... but all in all MB trumps charley hands down...not becuase o think MB is a more powerful TP, but Bcuz he has TK to boot

We aren't really talking about whether DC characters are overall more powerful than Marvel ones. (and they are). We are comparing two telepaths.

Maxwell Lord a rather poor TP got past Superman's mental sheild so I'm not impressed. Getting past Galactus's mental sheild is much more impressive to me.

Also conrolling the mind of several people is harder than merely connecting to them. Whne the Ultra Humanite took over the World he needed MM and several Telepaths to control the world, includign Brainwave and Gorrila Grodd. And Xavier took apart Cable's Safe house down to the nails in a split second from across the world with his TK so don't say Charels doen't have TK.

Originally posted by Diunic
Because in ten years reading DC and Marvel I saw that DC' characters are the most powerful, except for the nigh-omnipotents cosmic/mystic as Manjaro said. But I don't think you're giving the exact importance to Magneto, he bothers the telepaths but don't really make them less powerful. If I had to talk about feats maybe Xavier could be better TP because MM is too powerful to rely just on TP. Back to the topic even if Xavier was above MB in TP he would lose pretty badly. MB would handle his TP for enough time to behead X with his TK. 1) I never said something about Magneto's interference making the teeps less powerful, i only said it would make using tp more difficult on earth, which is true.

2) Of course MM is allaround more powerful than Xavier, due to his 'all-inclusive-power-package'. But i was talking simply about his telepathic capabilities when i asked you: "So why exactly do you think MM is a better telepath than Xavier again?" (I thought the question was selfexplaining?!)

3) MB would be ill advised not to use ALL his concentration on his mental defenses against a superior teep, cause one stray thought (on using his tk for example) and he'd probably had to act on Xaviers command or he'd be k.o'ed.

Maxwell lords feet was not that impressive if you know how he did it he took YEARS to get a foot hold on supermans mind he didnt just do it yesturday he took a very long time in order to get a hold on supes little by little taking over enough to controll him. anyway if MM is indeed stronger then X then id like to point out that in the past its been shown that Manchester Black has rivaled MM in power.

Originally posted by Warmonger
We aren't really talking about whether DC characters are overall more powerful than Marvel ones. (and they are). We are comparing two telepaths.

Maxwell Lord a rather poor TP got past Superman's mental sheild so I'm not impressed. Getting past Galactus's mental sheild is much more impressive to me.

Also conrolling the mind of several people is harder than merely connecting to them. Whne the Ultra Humanite took over the World he needed MM and several Telepaths to control the world, includign Brainwave and Gorrila Grodd. And Xavier took apart Cable's Safe house down to the nails in a split second from across the world with his TK so don't say Charels doen't have TK.

as i posted i was just getting cuaght up with all the things posted on the previous pages, and oh yeah it was cable who took apart the safe house not charles. charles just sent his astral self there to talk to cable as that was the time his god like powers were really setting in, so yeah charles DOESNT have TK

Originally posted by Mider
Maxwell lords feet was not that impressive if you know how he did it he took YEARS to get a foot hold on supermans mind he didnt just do it yesturday he took a very long time in order to get a hold on supes little by little taking over enough to controll him. anyway if MM is indeed stronger then X then id like to point out that in the past its been shown that Manchester Black has rivaled MM in power. We've come to a relative consensus, that MM is allaround more powerful because he has multiple strong powers, but in the depatment of telepathy (which we are discussing right now) Xavier is at least on his level, if not even better.

proof about this please? can X touch the whole universe or even the galaxy?

Let's look at Onslaught for a moment, not his magnetic or reality warping powers but his telepathy, which is really only Xaivers telepathy with no restrictions. As Onslaught he was able to channel psionic energy from across the galaxy to fuel him, laying waste to the astral representation of Earth. To defeat the Z'nox he not only connected to all of humanity, he gathered and harnessed all of humanities mental energy. This is a telepathic battle, connecting to a another beings mind no matter how many is considered one of telepathys most passive uses unless the minds put up resistance. It only proves that MM has range. I would be more impressed if he could manipulate or psi blasts the entire universe. The constant tampering with the astral planes and magnetosphere have only affected the range of earth telepaths while on earth not their overall power or skill.

Originally posted by Mider
proof about this please? can X touch the whole universe or even the galaxy? I confused now!

An MM supporter brought up this feat and i admitted, as ridiculous as it may be, this feat would place MM above Xavier in tp.
But then an another MM supporter mentioned, that MM never did that and that he only connected himself to the entire earth, but without any technical help and so would be above Xavier, who would need Cerebra to do so, nonetheless.
In reaction i brought up two examples of Charles connecting to planetary wide populations and standing up against/defeating cosmic entities telepathically without an amplifier, which would make him at least equal, if not superior to an MM connecting to the entire earth population.

So, what is it now? DID MM CONNECTED HIMSELF TO THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OR JUST TO THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE EARTH???

Please post pics and scans to proof whatever you think is true!!!

lets look at it from another point of view....the same way that in DC it is a pretty known fact that super strong beings(natural, or science born) can be kept in check by magic...conversley in the MU it has always been stated company wide that any charcter with vast psionic.......energy manipulation......or matter transmutation abilites usually have a subconscious ceiling to thier power so that they dont burn themsleves out.

Joseph shattered this threshold, and look what happened to him.. Even with prof. x and storm as an anchor his body still converted to energy and he became one with the magnetosphere, and was gone for good. the point to all this is. Onslaught, dare i say it, was a damn near omnipotent being. in fact, he was a being of pure energy under that armor...yes im going back to the old energy cannot be destroyed thing. therefore, he didnt have a ceiling to his powers.. he could draw upon and channel however many ambient energies he felt like cuz he couldnt be burned out..as HE himself was alerady pure energy. in fact, when you think about it, it wouldnt even be a far stretch to say that he was a mini cosmic being. So i dont think he, and HIS feats should be brought up in this discussion

that being said, going back to the orginal argument, we're talking Prof.x standing alone w/his telepathy here. not his psyche existing independently of his frail body. X has said on many occasions that when he tried to unlock his full potential he felt like he was being pulled in the farthest reaches of the astral plane, the same way that inexperinced speedsters in DC get sucked in the speed force, and are lost if they dont have an anchor.

Even if MM was in the MU and was subjected to the house rules of the farhter you go the more you'll burn out. him being a super strong, invulnerable being with molecular control over his body would be able to go to farther levels than Xavier would be able to go any way, cuz it would stilll boil down to who can push further.. its just like how Sentry can absorb an unlimited amount of energy without burning out, cuz he's invulnerable. So Xavier maybe be the most powerful telepath on MArvel Earth but compared to MM he's a baby, and thats all there is to it

The telepathic battle between Xavier and Dark Phoenix took place on multiple planes of reality at once, as was stated in that issue, and he endured, although it was ultimately Jean who helped him tip the scale in their favor he was holding his own.

meh i think that sounds like PIS i dont know how he stands to fight against a cosmic being.

he stood to fight it because it was power without knowledge as it was based on Jean and her inability to wield it's power.

Originally posted by manjaro
lets look at it from another point of view....the same way that in DC it is a pretty known fact that super strong beings(natural, or science born) can be kept in check by magic...conversley in the MU it has always been stated company wide that any charcter with vast psionic.......energy manipulation......or matter transmutation abilites usually have a subconscious ceiling to thier power so that they dont burn themsleves out.

Joseph shattered this threshold, and look what happened to him.. Even with prof. x and storm as an anchor his body still converted to energy and he became one with the magnetosphere, and was gone for good. the point to all this is. Onslaught, dare i say it, was a damn near omnipotent being. in fact, he was a being of pure energy under that armor...yes im going back to the old energy cannot be destroyed thing. therefore, he didnt have a ceiling to his powers.. he could draw upon and channel however many ambient energies he felt like cuz he couldnt be burned out..as HE himself was alerady pure energy. in fact, when you think about it, it wouldnt even be a far stretch to say that he was a mini cosmic being. So i dont think he, and HIS feats should be brought up in this discussion

that being said, going back to the orginal argument, we're talking Prof.x standing alone w/his telepathy here. not his psyche existing independently of his frail body. X has said on many occasions that when he tried to unlock his full potential he felt like he was being pulled in the farthest reaches of the astral plane, the same way that inexperinced speedsters in DC get sucked in the speed force, and are lost if they dont have an anchor.

Even if MM was in the MU and was subjected to the house rules of the farhter you go the more you'll burn out. him being a super strong, invulnerable being with molecular control over his body would be able to go to farther levels than Xavier would be able to go any way, cuz it would stilll boil down to who can push further.. its just like how Sentry can absorb an unlimited amount of energy without burning out, cuz he's invulnerable. So Xavier maybe be the most powerful telepath on MArvel Earth but compared to MM he's a baby, and thats all there is to it A quite interesting and sophisticated theory indeed!

But there is one little snag to it:
Xavier is also able to wield his psionic energies in his astral form, without the risk to burn out his body. Accessing his full potential in this state only holds the risk to cut the spiritual link to his body and to become a pure psionic being like Shadowking.
Even fighting in his physical body and burning it out would most probably not stop a telepath of his caliber. Amahl Farouk, Jean and even Emma were able to "survive" the death of their bodies and to live on as psionic beings, because they were too strong as psions, so...


And again i ask: DID MM CONNECTED HIMSELF TO THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OR JUST TO THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE EARTH??? (please present respective evidence in form of pics and scans)

MB might be greater than manhunter but xavier is a BEAST. if you take away his persona you get an insane monstrosity like the original onslguth. xavier is a lot more powerful than people give him crdit for, he broke through galactus's mental barriers without cerebro for heaven's sake. xavier wins. MB is at best at classic exodus level{which was pretty freakin high too}.

cheers clap clapping to wannabe and leonheartmm.

he had help did he not to break through galactus mental sheilds? didnt he use the entire power of the skrull homeworld or whatever? thats a good feet but how do we know that Manchester black cant do these feats?

the point is he didn't need help to bind their minds together, to prove to people that although he has become dependent on cerebro/a he does not need it/them.

hmmm so he broke through the mental sheilds of galactus just with his own power soundes lke PIS to me i mean controlling a lower race like skrulls is one thing but being able to break through the mental shields of a cosmic entity is just insane.

PIS is when someone like Slade can hold off the Justice League and not die. What Professor X did was by no means beyond his powers. Xavier without restriciton is Onslaught.

there is nothing lower about the Skrulls, in the marvel universe if not for mutants and mutates humans are the lowest of the low even the run of the mill skrull can shapeshift and fly a interstellar ship.

Oh yeah and if he can battle phoenix without being destroyed from the initial contact then breaching big Gs mental barriers is not too far fetched.

Originally posted by Mider
hmmm so he broke through the mental sheilds of galactus just with his own power soundes lke PIS to me i mean controlling a lower race like skrulls is one thing but being able to break through the mental shields of a cosmic entity is just insane. 1) Xavier got through to Galactus, but it was not enough to eventually stop him, so it remains a rather realistic feat. He did something similar against Dark Phoenix (and defeated her) and Ego (and defeated it), who are both also cosmic beings.
Remember, Charles is said to be the most powerful telepath on earth (Nathan, Rachel and Franklin may potentially be stronger, but not more powerful yet, since Xavier has superior experience and talent in addition to his strength), he is a psionic icon and went against cosmic beings on several occasions, so why exactly should his 'Galactus feat' be PIS???

2) Since when are Skrulls a lower race??? Alongside the Shiar and the Kree they are the most advanced and powerful humanoid race in the Marvel universe!

3) Is MM allegedly connecting himself to the population of the whole universe less PIS than the most powerful earth telepath (who successfully stood up against cosmic beings on several occasions) bypassing Galactus's shields?

you tell him wannabe Prof. x is so underrated on this forum

Sad truth!

Does anyone remember a while back Xavier's subconscious was destroying galaxies. I'm not sure but the Shiar went to earth to kill Charles. And this was way before Onslaught. Beat that MM

I consider myself a Charly-fan, but i don't remember this.
Could you provide issue numbers or scans, please?!

I dont have the issues but Im positive. Hopefully someone will have some info

Are you sure you're not talking about the Cassandra Nova crisis? (which was admitedly way after Onslaught)

No. the situation was exactly like Onslaught but on a cosmic scale. The only difference was the story was only contained in the Xmen branch. Somebody here has to shed some light on the matter.

I want to say toss up.

Wow. Guess we didn't feel like waiting for March to make this a 10th anniversary necro.

If Manchester can't use his TK, Xavier should win. He's done insane stuff with his TP that's been mentioned here that imo is beyond Black. He even mentally fought off Bedlam for a while, one of the Exemplars(same group as Juggernaut) who was basically Juggernaut, but of the mind.

Black easily. Tk does the trick.

Manchester wins.