Marka Ragnos, DN Luke and Exar Kun Run the Guantlet

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



w00t2112
1) Darth Maul, TPM Quin Gon, Rots Obi Wan and Rots Anakin
2) Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Rots Sidious and Assaji Ventress
3) Odan Urr, Jedi Master Arca, Vodo and Yoda
4) Cay Qel Droma, Ulic Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider
5) Darth Revan, DE Sidious and Darth Malak
6) DN Kyp, DN Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade
7) 20 Taranteks, 10 Fully grown Leviathans, 2 mutant Rancors and a Ancient Kryat Dragon
8) Naga Sadow, Lord Simus, Ludo Kressh and Freedon Nadd
9) They make it all the way..

Where do these 3 force users fall?

w00t2112
EDIT

tdtd
Ragnos himself can take everybody including Sadow and Kressh, DN Luke adding Exar Kun and force God(Yes I said it) DN Luke would make this gauntlet too easy..

w00t2112
well, i would think ragnos could get eaten being squished at 7

tdtd
OOOH didn't see that.. I don't know about that then again I don't have any idea what those are. I imagine though that he can use his "terrifying grasp of the dark side", Kun can use Sadow's Amulet, and Luke can throw all of them into a black hole..

IKC
All the way. Kun made short work of a sith wyrm using only one amulet back before he even trained in the Dark Side. 7 isn't going to be a problem for him and Ragnos.

tdtd, Luke can't summon black holes.

tdtd
Manipulate black holes whatever, 3 of the most powerful force users ever would take down even 4 of the ancient sith..

IKC
On second thought, Luke's probably going to die in the last battle. Exar and Marka, though, will make it.

Blaxican_Jedi
the three are lucky R2 isn't in the gauntlet... *has a flash back* oh god...the blood...

IKC
Feh. Artoo would beat them with one probe locked in his compartment.

tdtd
Artoo is a force God.. And no Luke will not die. DN Luke is equal to or greater than Kun, so if anyone dies it would be kun as the weakest link of the trio.

IKC
Prove up. DN Luke is not anywhere near Kun's level.

tdtd
lol... Here we go again with the fanboyism. Why don't you just say that Kun is the most powerful of the most powerful and can lay waste to Ragnos with his neat little Amulet created by Sadow..

IKC
Because I just asked you to prove that Luke is in Kun's league. In other words, I asked you to support your assertion which you consistently fail to do because you're a troll who doesn't know his head from his ass and frequently puts the two together.

tdtd
awww how cute, the kun fanboy gets riled up because I'm putting down his hero..

tdtd
Btw I got this off a forum which describes Luke's power only in DE...
Becomes more powerful in the force as he ages - Luke EU bio, databank.
He destroyed the deathstar with little training. Defeated Darth Vader, and Vader felt fear while fighting Luke (novelization).
Luke had the ability to be more powerful than the Emperor that Anakin lost - GL, ESB.
Force choke, force grip, Force storm.
The Emperor himself was afraid of Luke's power - RoTJ novelization.
Defeated the Emperor without the dark side in the duel and cut off his hand - Dark Empire. The duel was so intense and powerful that they both moved so fast, Leia couldn't see anything but surges of power from them - light (Luke) and dark (Emperor).
Testification of the Emperor "Your power is immense!!" - Dark Empire.
AT-AT cannon fire absorbed, then crushed that AT-AT with the force.
Rebuilt and destroyed Vader's castle with the force.
Mind control over several Tusken Raiders (disguise).
Using the force to levitate himself.
Walked across lava and even fought a monster while doing that (one of the most incredible ones). This is one of the most powerful displays, imagine what happened to his father..
Immune to force choke. Not even the Emperor was immune to force choke..
Force lightning (on the Emperor), emerald lightning.
Force whirlwind with boulders while using 2 lightsabers.
Force doppleganger.
Force shield on himself and others.
Moving at such speed without breaking a sweat that even to trained Jedi like Jacen and Jaina, his physical form didn't seem to be there and only 10 or 20 lightsabers..Taking down the slayers like they were nothing..
Using the force to revive himself when his lungs stopped working.
Mind control over nightsisters (disguise).
Rebuilding and regenerating destroyed nerve vessels in the brain.
Completely invisible in the force.
Flying the falcon with unbelievable precision, controlling the turrets and shields and everything doing the job of 3 using the force, even Han was stunned..

IKC
Aww, how cute, the troll tries to act nonchalant as if he didn't just get called out for not knowing dick!

When you make an assertion, be prepared to back it up.

Lol! Good job, you can provide feat wars! Nevermind that you just provided a bunch of shaky bullshit...

So how is his ability to shoot proton torpedoes going to help him beat Kun?

tdtd
Quit crying already, it's funny how angry you get, and then to control your anger you need to tell yourself that I'm pretending to be nonchalant about the whole matter. Denial's a ***** for nerds huhsmile

And btw, all you've ever done for Kun is provide feat wars, so I'm just doing what you're doing, don't get mad just because you believe feat wars only work for your hero.

IKC
It's funny how you provide a bunch of irrelevant and mostly untrue bullshit from another forum where they, too, share your tendency to verbally fellate Luke "zOMG, Teh FURCE!" Skywalker as evidence and then fail to back it up.

Please, go on thinking that you're riling me up. Whatever gets your rocks off, chief.

tdtd
You're right, we fellate Luke while you've proven time and time again to fellate Kun in all positions known to mankind, with your stupid feat wars, then your hypocrisy when I provide featwars for Luke. Way to go champ, you're looking great at this pointsmile

IKC
Hey, you know those feat wars that I've gone into? How about you point one out for all of us, bud? What's that? You're making things up?

Aww, poor Goebbels.

tdtd
Awww someone's getting angry. Your essays on what Kun did as a spirit, what kun did alive, and more importantly what kun did in the senate chambers.. Hmm sound like feat wars? No wonder you lose all logic when fanboyism is involved.

Captain REX
Aww, someone's getting a warning.

tdtd
Oh no! Hypocrisy isn't understood on this forum

IKC
What Kun did as a spirit: Relevance - The comparison to what Nadd did as a spirit.

What Kun did alive: Relevance - Eh? How about you provide an actual quote like I asked?

Kun's senate chamber actions: Relevance - Display of his power. Shooting a proton torpedo into the death star is pretty irrelevant to a versus match, bud.

Captain REX
Seriously, knock it off. I'm done with the stupid debates, now you seriously are just being a troll. Comply or leave, that's all I'm going to say.

tdtd
So when someone mentions Emerald lightning, and a lot of those feat wars I just mentioned, you downplay them because there might be someone powerful enough to match your hero... Interesting..

Blaxican_Jedi
Now, when you say troll, do you mean like the Lotr troll? or my mother when shes angry troll?

tdtd
The term troll is used by antisocial forum addicts in regards to people that respond to posts they have no business responding to, or something like that. I still havent learned this nerd lingo.

IKC
No, I question their relevance and application. "Emerald lightning," for instance, it seems only stuns the target when last I heard.

Blowing up the death star is completely irrelevant to the battle at hand.

IKC
1. troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

2. troll
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

tdtd
IKC, Im reading wikipedia which says Luke's the only person in the galaxy to ever use or create emerald lightning, which instantly kills its victim. Now with that, tell me how Kun stands a chance?

Veneficus
Personaily I fail to see how Luke would loose to Exar. The very fact that he managed to manuplate a black hole is just mind blowing.

tdtd
That is the point, if we talk about feats DN Luke is above Kun and maybe everyone but Ragnos and Sadow. If we talk about power, Luke's force power was limitless, and he didn't have a cute little amulet to help him.

Captain REX
Wikipedia can always be played as false, unfortunately. I don't get why.

IKC, please lay off the troll-calling. I'm handling the situation. yes

Unless there is a way to block Emerald Lightning, and we have seen none, Exar would be a bit screwed.

tdtd
Thank you.

IKC
And it's also irrelevant to the fight, Veneficus.

Disregarding the fact that you're using Wikipedia, what Exar Kun used against Odan-Urr has the same effect: that and Exar Kun managed to use it on a Force user, rather than a Vong.

tdtd
Ok.... Correct me if I'm wrong but not only did Luke Skywalker single handidly kill an army of Vong but he used Emerald Lightning on the Supreme Overlord who could kill MANY Jedi at 1 time.. Sounds a tad more impressive.

IKC
Huge unsupported hyperbole. I could easily say the same about Kun if I had the tendency to verbally fellate him as you do Luke.



And you can't prove that the amulet does anything, much less that it boosts his Force power. Straw man argument.



Exar Kun blasted apart an army of Massassi and a Sith Wyrm with minimal effort.

Exar Kun instakilled a millenia-old Jedi master who was a veteran of the war against the Ancient Sith. No Vong can resist Force attacks with Force defense of their own.

tdtd
I can't prove the amulet does anything? How does Kun use his little blast technique? Ah yes the Amulet... What was Kun before he got a hold of the amulet and Sadow's teaching? Ah yes nothing.. How are you going to sit there and say NAGA SADOW's Amulet did nothing to boost Kun's power? Even if it did a LITTLE bit, we know Luke had nothing of the sort. So from that it ranks Luke's powers and feats more impressive.


Oh yea, not to mention the Vong weren't part of the force and that Luke had to LEARN how to use the force against such an enemy.

IKC
And that's all you can prove that it does, not that it can boost his force power. That and this is a straw man argument intended to diminish Kun's power, ignoring the fact that Kun is not fighting naked and ergo has access to it.



Nothing except a master swordsman, a powerful Jedi, and the "most formidable student (Vodo) had ever had."

There is no proof that the amulet boosted his power at all. Why? Because at the same time he embraced the Dark Side and shortly after began to study Sith Magic.

Ergo, Luke's powers are still not more impressive and many of them are still irrelevant to a fight.



And this means what? Kun had to break through Odan's Force defense, something the Vong did not have. He did so with a simple hand movement.

Veneficus
Originally posted by IKC
And it's also irrelevant to the fight, Veneficus.

I am very aware of that, but do you have any idea the collective mass of a black hole? I'm pretty certain you must seeing as how your in college. The fact that Luke managed to manupilate that amount of energy is just pretty crazy to me. If Luke could do that I'm pretty certain he could take Exar. Not to mention that Luke took down a shitload of Vong slayers like it was nothing.

Also before you accuse me of being bais towards Luke you should know that I DETEST Luke as a character and if you don't believe me ask Janus he'll comfirm it.

Really you have elevated Kun to a level his power does not warrent.

tdtd
Exactly. IKC I don't have to prove Sadow's amulet made Kun more powerful. Some things are quite logical, like Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Sadow was only second to Ragnos and he poured his entire sith knowledge into the amulet, so that increasing the power of Kun is a given.

IKC
And do you know how much energy it took for Kun to, for example, control the Senate? How about how much energy he releases through his amulets?

Hell, Kun took down a shitload of Massassi like it was nothing. Massassi that were powered by the Dark Side, some of which were shown to slap around pissed-off Jedi with bare hands.

Luke can't take Kun. You need to prove up, not dip into irrelevancies and feat wars.



Do I care? Ever since you started lurking around again you've had a bug up your ass about me and about Kun. We have established and quantified his power during a debate you were never here for (against Lightsnake).



Make shit up much?

Prove he "poured his entire Sith knowledge into the amulet." Then prove that it's designed to increase one's force power.

tdtd
No offense but DN Luke can take Kun, it's already been proven even though you can't admit to it. And how are you going to compare freezing the entire senate, consisting of a few hundred thousand at most, to manipulating a black hole, planets, guiding ships through the force? It's simple, Luke is superior to Kun in terms of Force power, and he doesn't have an amulet to do it. Add the instakill technique and Kun goes bye bye, despite what you want to believe.

IKC
tdtd, WHERE HAS IT BEEN PROVEN?

How is he going to win? What is he going to do? Quantify his power and quantify Kun's!

Explain how he'll block blasts that Kun can cast repeatedly with no recharge time as we see in the scans. Explain how he'll win against Kun's absolute mastery of the lightsaber. Prove that he'll be able to win against Kun's own instakill which dropped a Jedi Master of 1000 years.

And when did Luke manipulate a planet? Make shit up much?

Guiding ships through the Force? Make shit up much? Understand the concept of relevancy?

Prove that he's superior in Force power, and then prove that Kun's amulets boost his power. Then, tell us how it's relevant if and when you prove that they boost him when you are faced with the simple fact that Kun is not fighting naked and ergo has access to said amulets.

tdtd
Cute, Kun has an instakill, Luke has an instakill, Kun was known as a lightsaber prodigy, so was Luke. You still haven't proved how Kun is superior to Luke besides a bunch of biased crap.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Luke Skywalker, despite how little training he received, became a powerful Jedi Master. His skill with both the Force and lightsaber are remarkable. In the New Jedi Order novel series, Luke uses a powerful and unique ability of the Force known as "Emerald Lightning" by fans of the series in the final battle against the Yuuzhan Vong. This technique has been described to look like "green sparks," which can instantly kill its victim. No other character can generate such powerful lightning. Throughout the Expanded Universe, he displays an amazing mastery of the Force, by manipulating black holes, gravity, and planets.

Now unless you're going to claim that wikipedia isn't a canon source, shut up...

Veneficus
Originally posted by IKC
And do you know how much energy it took for Kun to, for example, control the Senate? How about how much energy he releases through his amulets?

Hell, Kun took down a shitload of Massassi like it was nothing. Massassi that were powered by the Dark Side, some of which were shown to slap around pissed-off Jedi with bare hands.

Luke can't take Kun. You need to prove up, not dip into irrelevancies and feat wars.



Do I care? Ever since you started lurking around again you've had a bug up your ass about me and about Kun. We have established and quantified his power during a debate you were never here for (against Lightsnake).



Make shit up much?

Prove he "poured his entire Sith knowledge into the amulet." Then prove that it's designed to increase one's force power.

Oh! God forbid I actually disagree with you IKC the almighty and wise and unfallible debater who is never wrong. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You have this bad characistic to get pissed whenever someone disagrees with you.

Oh and I was a witness to that debate between Lightsnake, just becuase I never posted in it does not mean that I never read it.

tdtd
During the Death Seed Plague, Luke used the Force to communicate with the sentient crystals Tsils. It is important to remember that the more dissimilar the type of mind, the more difficult it is to communicate with via the Force.
While searching for the kidnapped Solo children, Luke used the Force to create an illusion over his face in order to disguise his identity. He would later reuse this trick on Yoggoy.
During the Kueller crisis, Luke prepared himself for death in such a way that he would become a Force ghost.
During the Battle of Dantooine Luke manuvered several black holes to crash into an enemy rakamat, destroying it
Jaina Solo describes him in the final battle of the Yuuzhan Vong War as a maelstrom of Force energy, so calm and focused that he was unstoppable. She also says his lightsaber looked to be like ten or twenty blades all moving at once.
Luke's abilities with a lightsaber and the Force allow him to prevail over thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warriors, along with other enemies. Luke defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own could kill many Jedi.
During the Dark Nest Crisis, Luke used the Force to generate a lifelike copy of his ship to fool the attacking enemy. This usage of the Force was so extreme, Luke burnt out and his face was temporarily sunken and shrivelled like Palpatine's.
Towards the end of the Swarm War, Luke used the Force to call all Jedi across the Galaxy to Ossus to make the announcement of him taking on the role of Grand Master of the Order, and to issue his views to the Jedi


I am not arguing that Kun isn't uber powerful, but Kun isn't even on par with Luke when it comes to force power.

IKC
Actually, Luke was never known as a lightsaber prodigy. He's more-so known for leading the Jedi in strikeouts as Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source, come up with something canon. Wikipedia falls nowhere under canon.

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.


Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.

See Wikipedia under there? I think not.

IKC
Originally posted by Veneficus
Oh! God forbid I actually disagree with you IKC the almighty and wise and unfallible debater who is never wrong. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You have this bad characistic to get pissed whenever someone disagrees with you.

Oh and I was a witness to that debate between Lightsnake, just becuase I never posted in it does not mean that I never read it.

Yeah, you never posted in it and you never engaged intellectually in it either:

Originally posted by Veneficus
God...this has gotten pathetic. Nevermind that we are arguing about imaginary characters and nevermind that it is pointless anyway lets just go ahead and insult eachother over the unreal!

Yayyyyyyy*record breaks* *jumbled scratching nioses and finally silence*

Veneficus
Originally posted by IKC
Yeah, you never posted in it and you never engaged intellectually in it either:

And? Your point? Have I gotten all pissed and shouted (or typed I should say) insults at you? Have I posted rude pics towards you? Have I told you to STFU? Have I bashed you? No I have done none of these things where as you have acted hostile simply becuase I disagree with you.

The only reason I posted that was becuase you guys were all bashing eachother and I could not help but find it to be pretty lame. Bashing eachother over fictonal characters, dear Lord how stupid.

IKC
Kun controlled the multiracial Senate.



Right, and Kun, a master of Sith Alchemy, couldn't do anything like this. God forbid.

How does this help Luke in a fight?



And Kun released his spirit without having to die.

How does this help Luke in a fight?



And what kind of effort did he exert in doing this? Kyp Durron replicated this feat, it's not as impressive as you make it out to be.

How does this help Luke in a fight?



Jaina Solo is not an objective, omniscient narrator and she's clearly engaging in hyperbole. What does swinging a blade like it's ten or twenty look like? Did he swing them with any skill at all? This proves jack.



And Kun's allowed him to prevail over formidible force users like Odan and Vodo. Indeed, he tooled the most powerful masters of his age and dominated the Massassi race, some of the stronger ones able to floor Jedi with bare hands.



Huh. Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto both managed to create many more tangible illusions than Luke did and both did so without such consequences. Looks like both of them are greater than Luke in this regard.



And Kun was seen as such a threat that all the Jedi in the galaxy appeared over Yavin IV to attack him with their "wall of Light." Thousands upon thousands of Force users were there, it was arguably the most powerful gathering of the Light that the galaxy had ever seen.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
Kun controlled the multiracial Senate.

Wake up. I've told you once and I tell you again. Read the narrators description of what Kun did in the comic. It says that he has frozen the Senators. And if that is Kun's greatest display of power - Raynar in DN controlled 375 planets filled with Killiks. So Raynar > Kun ? And since Luke defeated Raynar...Luke > Kun ?



What has creating illusions to do with Sith Alchemy ? If you would read the Chrystal star - Luke actively manipulated the minds of an entire space station filled with people to look different than he did. He did that with such a skill that even a trained Jedi didn't realize being manipulated by him. Then he kept using that technique on a place that drained the force power from people for over a week when Hethrir failed to ignite his lightsaber using the force after just being there for a few hours.



It wasn't exactly replicated as Luke used it on multiple "black holes" (which were artificial gravitation wells able to generate enough power to move moons) at once.



No of course he slashed through an entire army of Yuuzhan Vong including YV slayers without any lightsaber wielding skill and of course he can handle a weapon for 30 years without developing any skill in doing so. This is of course completely ignoring the fact that he thought of himself as the best lightsaber fighter in the entire order (when arrogance doesn't appear to be part of his personality) but I guess nobody in the NJO has any noticeable lightsaber skill (Kyle ? Jaden ? Kyp ?)...



As if Odan and Vodo are anywhere near the NJO people or the post ROTJ villians in the SW EU. Could they have defeated Joruus, DE Sidious, Shimmra or Raynar ?



Ah. Feat wars is allowed when you like it. I wonder what Sadow would have looked like if he tried to generate his illusions without his meditation sphere while in a ship combat situation. I guess their is a reason why he didn't try to do this...



And how many Jedi were needed to defeat Kun ? All that were present ? 100 ? 50 ? 10 ? Of course Kun was seen as a great threat and that's why they sent everything they had to confront him but that doesn't mean they needed everything they had to confront him.

By the way IKC: Why are you just dismissing any argument for Luke as "feat wars". TDTD has posted some examples of Luke's force control and everything you have to say was "feat wars". Also nice how you simply left the Exar vs DE Sidious and NJO Luke threat without further comments.

tdtd
Thank you bombarad, at least you have some common sense. I won't state that DN Luke is definitely>than Kun but from what we have seen, Luke has a mastery of the force that is uncomparable, and I agree that if Sadow wasn't in the meditation sphere, he would have looked like Luke did after what he did. And even a hyperbole like "Luke looked like he was swinging 20 lightsabers" says something about Luke's power. No IKC, I'm afraid you have lost, and Kun is the weakest link out of the three, I expect you to run like you do from all of the other threads..

IKC
Somehow got double-posted

IKC
Pull your head out of your ass and get some reading comprehension.





Sith Magic, I should say. Aleema did it. Naga did it. Both of them did it to a far greater scale than Luke could ever dream of. There is no reason to assume that Exar could not, and there's every reason to assume that he could since he had access to more than Aleema did.



And it was still replicated as you have never provided context for this feat. Did he do it all at once? Did he move them very far? Did it take much effort? What's the context? How the hell does this help him in a fight?



Beating a bunch of non-force-sensitives wielding physical objects rather than lightsabers? Great. So how about the Massassi that Kun blasted apart, some of which were shown to drop Jedi with bare hands?

Yes, I'm sure Luke's improved since his record-breaking strikeout days, but without formal training with opponents who are better than him, he progressed at a slower rate and there's nothing to suggest that he's better with the lightsaber than Kun, who was immersed in the forms of the Old Order and created a unique weapon and style.



Apparently you have no sense of irony. Note how everyone you just named with the exception of Katarn was trained by Luke or his subordinates, who were still trained by Luke. I'd call him incompetant if he wasn't the best saber wielder of his little band of Jedi.



Given their vastly superior knowledge and that they faced down far worse opponents (the Ancient Sith, anyone?), I'm going to say yes.

As if the fact that Kun dropped both of them like they were nothing doesn't mean anything? I like how you're arguing the exact opposite points you were arguing against Lightsnake. How about some consistency?



Except I was completely destroying his attempt at feat wars. Reading comprehension is your friend, Nai.

Your speculation as to the effects of creating illusions outside of his sphere is moot. You have no proof to ground it on and evidence speaks against you: Aleema could create far greater tangible illusions than Luke ever did, and she never had access to said sphere. QED.



And if they only figured they needed a few or even a hundred, why did they send the call out to all Jedi in the galaxy to meet above the skies of Yavin 4 and use the Wall of Light power, hm? The answer to your question can only be speculation because there's no proof for any concrete answer.



Mostly because he brings up irrelevant bullshit like "Luke blew up the death star!" and "Luke can disguise his face!"

Also nice how you apparently think I'm obligated to respond to every picadilly post you make within a time frame you decide on. Don't worry, I'll get to it.

tdtd
Get to what? You've lost the debate with your silly fanboyism. And why did you post the same thing twice? Trying to establish your point? Btw if you look on the references from Wikipedia, they are all "G-Canon" as you put it, so despite your denial, they are an accurate portrayal and testament of Luke's power, which exceeds anything Kun has done.

IKC
LOL!

Yes, because NJO and Wikipedia was written by Lucas, right? Good job making an ass of yourself once again, troll. Learn to read, learn to debate. Until then,

http://www.orlyowl.com/gtfo.jpg

tdtd
How many times have you embarassed yourself in this thread you silly fanboy? Your arguments have been nothing short of faulty in regards to your hero kun. Stop embarassing yourself already.

Oh and yes, The New Essential Guide to Characters (Star Wars) is canon, even a dumb fanboy like yourself should know that, but continue the embarassment, it's getting to easy.

IKC
Please, keep trolling.

By the way, essential guides cannot create canon nor are they G-Canon. Come up with a primary source. Wikipedia is a tertiary source at best.

http://www.igophoto.net/evcatalyst/images/__gtfo.gif

tdtd
LOL Right. So the comics are canon but books like NJO and DN are not... Wikipedia is canon because its references are canon fanboy. Now accept the fact that Kun isn't as uber as you set him out to be, or don't. Either way I don't care but we all know you lose sleep over your hero...

IKC
Uh, if you were reading from NJO or DN they would be canon but you aren't. Your source (Wikipedia) is not canon and is subject to bias and simple errors.

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.


Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.



2. troll, n.
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

Fishy
Odan and Vodo faced the Ancient Sith? Most of them were killed when Naga Sadow ran, and destroyed Ludo. The sith Lords were killed by their own Massasi. Unless you have prove that even these weak Sith were more powerful then the Yuuzhan Vong, you really have no case here. Also Vodo is 600 years old, the Hyperspace war was 400 years earlier.



Aren't you the one that said that Ulic was impressive for beating Mandalore? A none force senstive without a lightsaber? Good way to be consistent, especially when you say Nai is not in the same post.

And again about the senate they were FROZEN. You are the one thats takig that quote of context and in a way that it was not meant just to satisfy your own personal goals, and to make Kun look more impressive.

The Narrator says the entire chamber is frozen, forced to watch and not react.

This does not imply he controlled them, it says he froze them. If he controlled them it would have said something like "Kun controlled the entire Senate chamber, they were forced to watch his every move" it says nothing along those lines, it says Frozen. And if you are frozen you are forced to watch. Simpe as that.

And the Narrator is even lying with that because not the entire chamber is frozen, the chancelor is not, the Jedi are not...

IKC
Odan faced down the Ancient Sith and blocked many from the Force. The war went on beyond the events portrayed in FotSE as evidenced here:

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

That and we don't know how long the war lasted beyond the FotSE events. Vodo could very well have fought in it, though it's very unlikely.

And yes, the weak Sith were more powerful than Yuuzhan Vong: have you seen any Vong drop lightsaber-wielding Jedi with bare hands? Seen any Vong use the Dark Side? I think not.



I'm glad you've taken into account the context of their battle: Mandalore on a basilisk war droid, Ulic not even permitted to stand on solid ground (he was on chains). Good job with the observation skills, Fishy!



And then you pull your head out of your ass and read the rest of the sentence: FORCED TO WATCH AND NOT REACT.



Your head's in the sand:





Right, the omniscient narrator is lying. Kun can't possibly have let them out of his spell, the omniscient narrator must be lying!

Good call, Fishy. Nice assumption.

Time for class.

tdtd
IKC, Wikipedia got the NJO and DN information FROM THE DN AND NJO BOOKS. Hence, the title "New Jedi Order" and "Dark Nest" and "The Swarm Wars". I love how you illogically diminish the abilities of others by claiming the information is false, while embellishing the feats of your hero Kun.. I don't think I have to define Fanboy for you, as you've already proven it.

Maybe you should take a logic and critical thinking class while you're at it.

Fishy
Originally posted by IKC
Odan faced down the Ancient Sith and blocked many from the Force. The war went on beyond the events portrayed in FotSE as evidenced here:

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2249/odancombat17ay.th.jpg
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7098/odancombat24gp.th.jpg

That and we don't know how long the war lasted beyond the FotSE events. Vodo could very well have fought in it, though it's very unlikely.

The Sith Lords were dead... Killed by Massasi what remained was weak, you know that.. Probably in a rebellion for a new Dark Lord. Odan probably cut of a lot from the force, but that means jack shit unless we know how powerful they were.



I never read any NJO and neither did you, so saying they are more powerful is bullshit, unless you know exactly what those guys did. And you don't. This is one huge assumption and you are arguing from ignorance, not a very good thing to do.



Did you take the battle against the Yuuzhan Vong into context? No you did not, you just said that fighting none force sensitives isn't impressive. Don't bullshit me with this logic IKC, you don't know the condition in which they fought, and yet you say its not impressive.

And he wasn't in the Basilisk the entire time now was he?



Again cool down, you are getting pissed off a lot lately when people don't agree with you, you aren't almighty you know. You aren't always right.

And forced to watch and not react does not say, controlled. However he does literally say FROZEN. So they were just that FROZEN. Your argument after that makes no sense, because its all based on a terrible assumption of which we see no prove, we don't see their heads move we don't see their body's move we see nothing move. You wanting it and stating a million times does not make it so. Prove that they moved to keep on watching or admit to the fact that they are frozen. The Narrator just expands on what Frozen means, as to say that they are not literally in a block of ice.



and you are ignoring points left and right just to make it fit your own believes.



I'm not the one assuming anything, I am saying that there were people able to move. Kun had no reason to allow them to move, so he didn't freeze them all, simple as that. Unless you can prove that he did. There is no indication in the comic at all that he let them go. In fact everything points the other way. The Narrator doesn't mention them being able to walk again because Kun lowered his spell, Kun does nothing that could make the spell weaken for as far as we can see. So Kun didn't allow them to move, Kun simply did not freeze them. If you think otherwise, Prove up.

tdtd
Hey IKC how are you going to say they were a lot more powerful than the Vong who weren't part of the force? That's a bold statement, us rational humans would like to call it fanboyism.

PurpleSaber
Luke would beat Kun.

tdtd
Thank you, plain and simple, we'll wait for IKC's book now.

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
Thank you, plain and simple, we'll wait for IKC's book now.

I love how you treat it like an open and shut case because you have that opinion. At least IKC has attempted to bring in proof, you just repeat the same thing ad nauseum.

And who the hell voted for 6?

tdtd
Refer to me previous posts of Luke's achievements and examples of why he would win before telling me I'm repeating the same thing again. Isn't that what you would call a troll?

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by Illustrious
I love how you treat it like an open and shut case because you have that opinion. At least IKC has attempted to bring in proof, you just repeat the same thing ad nauseum.

And who the hell voted for 6?
Td had proof. He listed like 20 things. All IKC did was complain about how certain feats had nothing to do with how Luke fights, which was true but TDTD also had other proof.

tdtd
Thank you

w00t2112
Listing Feats isnt proof, as BOTH IKC and TDTD has done, hell if we compare feats, Ragnos certainly isnt going to surpass even Obi Wan, does that mean Obi Wan > Ragnos? No way.

However the Vong have never demonstrated any control of the force, while the Massasi have, but its still irrevelant, Kun tooled Vodo, one of the most skilled lightsaber combat masters, whats to say he cant tool the Vong like Luke did?

His emerald lightning never kills, it merely stuns, its victim, hence its not a instakill, as well its only been demonstrated on a non force being, therefore we cannot say it works on Kun, neither have the amulet blasts been proven to affect force users, however from the information we have, the amulet blasts are stronger due to its ability to rip monsters of the Dark side into shreds.

Goodwork TDTD you have proved what Luke has done, and what his capable of, however you have not proved that Luke is better than Kun, in both demonstration of Lightsaber combat and Force Powers, Kun and Luke are on par with each other, as in force potential.

The reason being, while Luke has had around 50 books written about him, and a more thorough description of ALL his powers, we havent more than one comic on Kun's power, neither his full potential, due to his premature death.

Certainly if Ulic had bested a Jedi without the Force, and with Kun leagues above Ulic, then its clear Kun, was skilled in lightsaber combat to an extent that it would most likely equal DN Luke's, however this point is speculation.

However i do not believe Kun to be superior to Luke, neither Luke superior to Kun, i believe them to be on par with each other, in both lightsaber combat and force abilites.

tdtd
W00t, the emerald lightning kills its victims instantly, if you want a source I can show you a source. I also put Luke's force abilities above Kun's because Kun had Sadow's amulet, while Luke had nothing. And then when you look at examples of their force mastery, Luke goes beyond Kun..

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
W00t, the emerald lightning kills its victims instantly, if you want a source I can show you a source. I also put Luke's force abilities above Kun's because Kun had Sadow's amulet, while Luke had nothing. And then when you look at examples of their force mastery, Luke goes beyond Kun..

But there is no evidence to even suggest that the amulet boosted their force powers at all. It gave Kun access to some cool abilities, but there's nothing to suggest that it made his force push or anything else any stronger.

Nadd was able to floor Vodo as a spirit. And if we want to talk amulets, then when Satal equipped the amulet, all he could do is read Sith text, no mention of force abilities at all.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by w00t2112
Listing Feats isnt proof, as BOTH IKC and TDTD has done, hell if we compare feats, Ragnos certainly isnt going to surpass even Obi Wan, does that mean Obi Wan > Ragnos? No way.
However, we DO know some of Kun's feats as well as Luke's. If we compare them, Kun has not done things nearly as powerful as Luke has.

tdtd
Exactly, in terms of feats that show force powers, Luke owns Kun. Illustrious, it is very logical to assume that Sadow's OWN Amulet increased Kun's power, if even a little. It still speaks volumes about Luke who was able to mimic Sadow's abilities without a meditation sphere, albeit now in the quantity that Sadow did it. There's still more evidence that Luke is superior to Kun in the Force, those books make him look like a Force God

Illustrious
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
However, we DO know some of Kun's feats as well as Luke's. If we compare them, Kun has not done things nearly as powerful as Luke has.

Like what? Controlling a black hole? That's irrelevant to the fight, Luke's not going to up and summon a black hole while he is engaging Kun. Besides, Kyp duplicated the feat, it's not quite as impressive.

Swinging a lightsaber really fast according to Jaina? Is this definitively faster than Kun? Is faster definitively better? Dooku didn't have the fastest saber in the series, but he seemed to do alright.

Luke used emerald lightning. On a non-force user. Can he do it on Kun? Doubtful. Kun has an attack that instantly throttled Odan-Urr, a respected and revered Jedi Master who probably has forgotten more than most NJO/DN Jedi know.

He hacked his way through an army of Vong? Are the Vong stronger than Kun's Massassi? Give me the evidence of that. The Massassi submitted to Kun unquestionably.

Is Luke just the best saberist ever or something? He beat Supreme Overlord Shimrra. Is he superior to Vodo? Odan? How?

And then comparing feats is just pointless. As mentioned, Luke has dozens of books compared to Kun's comics. If feats were all that mattered, than Ragnos wouldn't even be as impressive as Lando. Despite being the highest figure of the Sith.

What I'm asking for is context. Until the context is there, the argument is inconclusive.

tdtd
Ok and at the same time, are the massassi warriors somehow more powerful than the Vong? There is no evidence that he used emerald lightning on force users you're right but doesn't mean he can't. Defeating an army of Vong with a lightsaber is an impressive feat no matter how you take it. Any evidence that Kun would be able to blast Luke? We were just discussing sheer force power, obviously manipulating black holes is irrelavant in a fight, but Luke has shown superior force abilities. That's all we have to work with since everything else is inconclusive..

Fishy
Originally posted by Illustrious
Like what? Controlling a black hole? That's irrelevant to the fight, Luke's not going to up and summon a black hole while he is engaging Kun. Besides, Kyp duplicated the feat, it's not quite as impressive.

Swinging a lightsaber really fast according to Jaina? Is this definitively faster than Kun? Is faster definitively better? Dooku didn't have the fastest saber in the series, but he seemed to do alright.

Luke used emerald lightning. On a non-force user. Can he do it on Kun? Doubtful. Kun has an attack that instantly throttled Odan-Urr, a respected and revered Jedi Master who probably has forgotten more than most NJO/DN Jedi know.

He hacked his way through an army of Vong? Are the Vong stronger than Kun's Massassi? Give me the evidence of that. The Massassi submitted to Kun unquestionably.

Is Luke just the best saberist ever or something? He beat Supreme Overlord Shimrra. Is he superior to Vodo? Odan? How?

And then comparing feats is just pointless. As mentioned, Luke has dozens of books compared to Kun's comics. If feats were all that mattered, than Ragnos wouldn't even be as impressive as Lando. Despite being the highest figure of the Sith.

What I'm asking for is context. Until the context is there, the argument is inconclusive.

Ohh I can answer one of those

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3281/massassihonourkun4pu.th.jpg

For the rest I completely agree

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
Ok and at the same time, are the massassi warriors somehow more powerful than the Vong? There is no evidence that he used emerald lightning on force users you're right but doesn't mean he can't. Defeating an army of Vong with a lightsaber is an impressive feat no matter how you take it. Any evidence that Kun would be able to blast Luke? We were just discussing sheer force power, obviously manipulating black holes is irrelavant in a fight, but Luke has shown superior force abilities. That's all we have to work with since everything else is inconclusive..

I'm not saying I put the Massassi as more powerful than the Vong, I'm just saying that when put in context, there's nothing to suggest the two aren't at least comparable. The massassi could take Jedi, and so could the Vong. The Massassi were tough, and so were the Vong. The Massassi had some force imbuement, the Vong... not so much. Take that how you will.

w00t2112
By what you say TdTd i can also assume that Kun can defeat Luke, due to the fact he had more of the Ancient Sith Knowledge, which contains extraordinary powers, such as the Scepter, Nihilus's technique. If you want to assume, then this is valid, however it isnt, so therefore your assumption is wrong.

Yes at his full potential DN Luke has shown more of his abilities and not neccesarrily a superior one, whats to say, Kun cant replicate it? Based on the feats that you have given, and adding the fact that Kun was still rather young at the age of his demise, its logical to assume that Kun had an even more superior force potential, and dont forget that Kun, learnt most Naga Sadow's Sith Magic/alchemy.

Like Illustrious said, the Amulet does not boost the user's force potential nor their force power, its only been shown to blast beams out and rip to shreds the Dark Side monsters.

Ok, Luke cut through the an entire Vong Army, however Kun, drained the life of every single Massassi Warrior, you tell me which one is the more impressive feat.

Is there any evidence that Luke will instakill Kun? In feats Luke surpasses Kun, however in reality, its only fair to compare Luke to the age of Kun, in which case it would be DE, and as it is shown DE Luke is far inferior to Kun, so thereby Kun has superior force potential and force powers, its also very logical to assume Kun at the height of his potential, far outstrippes any incarnation of Luke.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
Pull your head out of your ass and get some reading comprehension.


LOL. You're telling me that ? How about getting some reading comprehension yourself. "The senate chamber is frozen. Forced to watch and not react." They are frozen and theirby forced not to react. So you better start reading instead off serving us wrong interpretations of the same lines over and over again. Or is the narrator wrong now because you like to have Kun doing something different ?



Let's see. Luke did change his appearance completely in a situation that clearly had a negative effect on his force powers (being drained by the star nearby). He used illusions to hide Darth Vaders fortress on Coruscant as well as an entire planet in the dark fleet crisis - in the last case he even says that this illusion will last over an infinite amount of time. And what do you want to tell me here ? That Aleema is a far greater force user than DN Luke ? Lmao.



He used the force against beings that are normally resistant to force attacks and turned them against their own forces destroying them.



Beating a bunch (thousands of beings = "a bunch"wink of force resistant creatures belonging to a race of warriors that has taken over an entire Galaxy, with armours and weapons resistant to lightsaber hits is of course less impressive than blasting a few Massasi apart with a force based weapon able to rip through massive walls.



Great reasoning. Kun was a lightsaber prodigy and basically had no rival in terms of lightsaber fighting skills except Ulic. He - of course - had no "formal training" against people who were better than him so I wonder how he was able to improve his lightsaber skills in the matter of a few years so far that he was above anybody else. This miracously works for Kun but Luke - possesing Vodo's holocron, a vast amount of Jedi knowledge from the training vessel Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir, as well as remains of the knowledge stored on Ossus - can't improve his lightsaber abilities much when having an entire academy of possible sparing partners (including Kyle Katarn - arguably the best mercenary seen so far even before he became a force user, Mara Jade - a trained assassin and so on) in 3 decades (which roughly equals Exar Kuns entire lifetime).



Notice how Kyle was better than Boba Fett in times of Dark Forces (so before he became a Jedi). Notice how Kyle and Jaden both went through legions of Dark Jedi - without getting trained by Luke. Notice how Luke wrecked entire armies of people throughout his career, starting with bounty hunters and criminals (SotE, ROTJ - especially the Black Sun people in SotE which were a challenge for Darth Maul according to Shadowhunter) and continuing up to the likes of DE Sidious (who had to be better than his ROTS equivalent).

So...before ROTJ Luke has been able to defeat people who were a challenge for Darth Maul (who isn't exactly the worst lightsaber wielder we know) and nearly 30 years later he still should be a relative weak lightsaber fighter ? He defeated DE Sidious (somebody who was superior to Maul, Obi-Wan and Fisto and survived Windu and Yoda when he was clearly weaker than in DE) 20 years before DN - even before starting "real" training in his Academy. Yet you still act as if he was an untrained farm boy...



In the debate with lightsnake I was comparing Kun to the newer Sith and Kun is stronger without a doubt. Now I'm comparing the NJO "Jedi" (or DN Luke in this case) to the other Jedi we've seen so far. Do you really want to argue that Vodo or Odan - who were tooled by Exar - could have defeated DE Sidious ? And they were fighting ancient Sith Lords ? Vodo sure as hell didn't as he was born 400 years after the Great Hyperspace War and Odan could just have confronted minor Sith Lords since the "big guys" were already defeated.



I didn't see Aleema hiding a planet from view for an infinite amount of time without concentration but I have read the Black Fleet trilogy and I have seen that some minor force user (compared to Luke 15+ years before DN) managed to triple the amounts of ships in the New Republics 5th fleet by creating illusions. As it seems creating illusions isn't exactly the greatest indication of power.



Why did the Rebels send an entire fleet to destroy the second Death Star when they knew that this can be done with a single starfighter ? Of course the answer can only be speculation - on the same level that it's speculation that they needed (or just thought they would need) any Jedi left in the Galaxy to deal with Kun.

Borbarad
@Illustrious:


We're talking about force power here. Luke controlled - several - black holes able to throw moons around, Kyp didn't do the same he just did it with one of the doving basals more easily than Luke did with a greater number. And Kyp has displayed a huge amount of force potential compared to the other NJO people.



Yoda appears to be the fastest fighter in the PT and he also seems to be the best. And Jaina stated that she (as a trained Jedi) wasn't able to see Luke's physical form any longer it just seems as if Luke was wielding 20 lightsabers while - in fact - only wielding one at that point. That indicates that he was moving faster than even Yoda and - while doing that - still moving precise enough to cut down slayers with one strike each.



Luke used emerald lightning on a being that was mostly resistant to any force attacks. Can Kun use his amulet blasts to kill a force-user as we have never seen him doing that ? Doubtful. Can he take down DN Luke as easily as he did with 1000-year-old-Odan who himself thought that he was beaten because he was old - when Luke was able to block a force attack powered by the combined potential of the inhabitants of 375 planets ?

And the NJO/DN people had of course less knowledge than Odan. On the other side: What kind of knowledge did Odan have ?

- the "cut force connection" ability was used by Kyle Katarn against Jerec in "Jedi Knight" (and then Katarn used the same trick on himself in the end of MotS - he basically pulled an Exile).
- Luke had access to Vodo's holocron (KotoR time knowledge), some stuff from Ossus (pre KotoR time knowledge), everything DE Sidious owned (PT Jedi knowledge, huge amounts of Sith Lore)



The normal Vong (as mentioned in the NJO) is twice as strong as a trained soldier. Their warrior caste is stronger and on top of that are the slayers and the Surpreme Overlord.
I guess people with biological-engineered bodies in lightsaber resistant armor wielding lightsaber resistant weapons are quite more of a threat to a Jedi compared to Massassi. And Luke took down hundrets or thousands of YVs in melee combat, wasted 8 slayers at once were one was too much for Kyp Durron just to take down their Supreme Overlord.
I mean...look at a picture of Nom Anor:

http://starwars.wikicities.com/images/5/59/Nom_anor1.jpg

That guy is quite comperable to Sadow's mutated Massassi. And he belonged to the physically weaker intendant caste meaning he basically was a politician. Now if that is a "non warrior" in terms of Yuuzhan Vong the members of the warrior caste, the slayers and the Supreme Overlord must be quite more powerful compared to Massassi.



He has beaten DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel 20 years before DN. If you think about the fact that a less powerful Sidious in ROTS could only get beaten by Yoda, Mace and possibly Dooku (so 3 out of 10,000 people - when guys like Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Kit Fisto weren't a match for him) that places even DE Luke on a quite high rang among lightsaber duellists. Now in DN Luke has gone through 2 other decades training with the force and with lightsabers and some nice little conflicts. When he was on a level with people like Mace, Sidious and Yoda 20 years before that I wonder were he has gotten in the NJO or in DN with another 15-20 years of additional training and combat experience.

I'm not saying that he can tool Kun in a lightsaber duel but it seems as if he's clearly among the top lightsaber duellist - given how he disarmed (literally) DE Sidious 20 years before DN and without the experiece he most likely gained from the founding of his academy on and how he's descriped while fighting in the NJO series.
That's not even talking about his force powers which are - look at it like you want - unbelieveable in the very few situations in which we get a look at what he can do. It took the power of dozens of Jedi to defend against Raynar's attacks from a huge distance - Luke confronted him directly and could deal with Raynar's power (which was the combined potential of 375 planets filled with Killiks and normal people) on his own.

tdtd
I agree completely with Borborad and somewhat with Illustrious. However Illustrious, who are we to state the true potential of Kun. For all we know he reached it then and there. With that argument I can just say that Luke is a Skywalker so his potential is way beyond Kun. Now I'm not saying Luke can defeat Kun in lightsaber combat but even in DE Leia says that she cannot see Luke in his epic battle with Sidious, she just sees 2 colors because it's too fast. Is there any evidence that Kun can move nearly as fast as Luke? I think not.

Wesker
Hm. One thing I'd like to comment on, Nai- Illustrious has talked on this before, and it makes sense in light of Glentract's theory on DE Sidious' power (Since he drained all of Byss)... and that is that while such power may add or boost an individual, there's no way of knowing how is stacks nor is there any point to assume it stacks linearly. In other wise, instead of saying it's Sidious + 6 billion Byssians or whatever, it may only take energy from said Byssians and just augment his own to an unknown but higher level. Instead of assuming the highest possible level of power, it's better to put it into context of exactly what was done and .

Take the example of Sidious again: while he was imbued with this power of combined peoples, he did not reach out and crush everything with his sheer force power (Which would seem to be the case). He did not stop Luke and Leia in place and smoosh them like fudge. Same thing with this Raynar... What did he do? a force push? Why not a force crush? Why didn't he just rip up the ground and enclose Luke in it? And why would Luke have more combined power than all that?

Wesker
Originally posted by tdtd
I agree completely with Borborad and somewhat with Illustrious. However Illustrious, who are we to state the true potential of Kun. For all we know he reached it then and there. With that argument I can just say that Luke is a Skywalker so his potential is way beyond Kun. Now I'm not saying Luke can defeat Kun in lightsaber combat but even in DE Leia says that she cannot see Luke in his epic battle with Sidious, she just sees 2 colors because it's too fast. Is there any evidence that Kun can move nearly as fast as Luke? I think not.

So Skywalker is automatically the highest possible potential of any person.... why?

Cuz Anakin was teh chusen 1?????

Please.

tdtd
Wesker, common knowledge states that anakin DID have the highest possible potential lol, haven't you seen episodes 1-3? And I was simply stating that if you're going to say that Kun possibly had more potential than Luke which is unknown and unlikely, then I can refute that by stating that Luke is a Skywalker. Also, I've never even see a force crush outside of a video game, so I don't know where it originated from and who uses it. But we see Luke's power from the books, his power is clear and definite.

Wesker
Anakin has been stated to have the highest potential in the post-Ruusan era. Midichlorian counts weren't taken before. He's probably well up there, but assuming he's the only one up there is arguing from ignorance.

tdtd
No I'm not assuming he's the only one, I'm just stating the he WAS the chosen one. Of course Star Wars could be like the Matrix and could have 7 chosen ones, IE Revan, then Anakin, who knows. My point is if you're going to argue something like Exar Kun having more potential than Luke(which is illogical but more realistically, unproven), then I can argue that Luke is a Skywalker(stupid argument just because the Skywalker bloodline was the chosen one).

Wesker
Actually, Exar Kun has displayed force powers well in excess of what Anakin has shown, making Anakin's force powers questionable in the grand scheme of things.

And full potential is a tricky phrase anyways, since it is near impossible to tell if and when each character has reached their full potential. It's like a glass of water; you might fill it up, you might not.

tdtd
Very true Exar Kun DID display stuff Anakin did, and Kun had the access to Sith Knowledge and a Sith amulet. George Lucas does though clearly state that once Anakin turned to the Dark Side, he became the greatest force user in the galaxy.. Take what you will from that but my point is you're right, you can't measure potential. We know Luke reached his, and Kun may or may not have reached his.

Wesker
How is it that we "know" Luke reached his? You've been saying this nonstop but you don't have any evidence for it. Remember when you said that I was wrong and Odan-Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing across the galaxy? You even said you had the material in front of you then. And you were obviously blind or lying. So give me a page number from a specific title or stop making the claim. You're coming off as a DN Luke lover to the hilt.

Veneficus
Originally posted by tdtd
Very true Exar Kun DID display stuff Anakin did, and Kun had the access to Sith Knowledge and a Sith amulet. George Lucas does though clearly state that once Anakin turned to the Dark Side, he became the greatest force user in the galaxy.. Take what you will from that but my point is you're right, you can't measure potential. We know Luke reached his, and Kun may or may not have reached his.

Where did GL state this?

tdtd
No, I said that Odan Urr DID feel Ragnos' passing. You're right, it is pure speculation that Luke reached his full potential in DN, according to many forums. However, what does Luke reaching his full potential or not, have to do with anything really? What is your point here? And I'm not a Luke lover, we're comparing him to Kun, I never said Luke is the greatest force user ever and is uber powerful.


Veneficus, GL stated this on the Episode III DVD

Segeeth
Originally posted by Wesker
How is it that we "know" Luke reached his? You've been saying this nonstop but you don't have any evidence for it. Remember when you said that I was wrong and Odan-Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing across the galaxy? You even said you had the material in front of you then. And you were obviously blind or lying. So give me a page number from a specific title or stop making the claim. You're coming off as a DN Luke lover to the hilt.

Actually Odun Urr didn't feel Ragnos' passing. He only witnessed through the force in a dream the events at his funeral. It had nothing to do with Ragnos being so powerful that Odun Urr felt his passing through the force.

tdtd
Actually no Segeeth he did indeed witness his passing, because that was the last time anyone saw the ghost of Marka Ragnos until the time of Exar Kun, so yes he did witness his passing.. And yes it does have to do with Ragnos being so powerful, that his death is felt throughout the entire galaxy.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Wesker
Hm. One thing I'd like to comment on, Nai- Illustrious has talked on this before, and it makes sense in light of Glentract's theory on DE Sidious' power (Since he drained all of Byss)... and that is that while such power may add or boost an individual, there's no way of knowing how is stacks nor is there any point to assume it stacks linearly. In other wise, instead of saying it's Sidious + 6 billion Byssians or whatever, it may only take energy from said Byssians and just augment his own to an unknown but higher level. Instead of assuming the highest possible level of power, it's better to put it into context of exactly what was done and .

Take the example of Sidious again: while he was imbued with this power of combined peoples, he did not reach out and crush everything with his sheer force power (Which would seem to be the case). He did not stop Luke and Leia in place and smoosh them like fudge. Same thing with this Raynar... What did he do? a force push? Why not a force crush? Why didn't he just rip up the ground and enclose Luke in it? And why would Luke have more combined power than all that?

Well, Janus. The point is that what DE Sidious did is not compareable to what Raynar did. Sidious drained a part of the Byssians lifeforce - meaning he didn't use the combined force potential of the people on Byss but used only a part of their complete energy and even that he shared with other people.

Raynar was basically a focus for the combined force potential of all Killiks (and normal people) that were present on that 375 planets. Some similar thing was done in the Jedi Academy trilogy when Lukes relatively untrained students combined their potential and focused it through Dorsk 81 who used it to push Admiral Daala's attack force out of the Yavin system. And if Luke's students (8 or 10 people as far as I remember) are enough to force push a stardestroyer (or a super-stardestroyer ? I'm not sure.) and it took the combined power of dozens of trained Jedi to counter one of Raynars force attacks we can conclude that the amount of force power Raynar was wielding - even when it can't be quantified exactly - had to be quite huge. And Luke blocked that on his own.

And if I may remind you: DE Sidious did use his sheer force power and started crushing an entire fleet of ships with it until getting stopped by Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin while Raynar (and even Kun in this instance) couldn't do the same because they had to deal with a massive amount of force users on the other side (Kun with the Jedi above Yavin 4 and Raynar with the NJO).

tdtd
True on all of those points

Segeeth
But the fact was that though Odun Urr witnessed his passing, he did not specifically feel his death through the force. BTW this is Numan. I am currently trying to uplift my ban on this website and am waiting for Rex's reply.

tdtd
Ok Numan, he might not have felt his death at the instant of his death, he felt the actual passing of Marka Ragnos.

Segeeth
I can see why you would think that he specifically witnessed the event but did not actually feel Ragnos passing. He witnessed it because it was part of the event that the force showed him through his dream, but he did not actually feel his death.

tdtd
He felt his PASSING. The passing of Marka Ragnos as a spirit for 1,000 years, was felt by Odan Urr

Segeeth
Actually if you really read the comic carefully and examine it well, you will see that he witnesses the funeral and the events that take place, including Ragnos passing, but this does not necessarily mean that he FELT his passing. It would be kind of like if Yoda witnesses the duel between Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader on the death star. He would have witnessed the whole duel, he would have witnesses Ben Kenobi dying, but he wouldn't have necessarily felt his death through the force.

tdtd
What are you talking about? Numan if he didn't see the passing and the funeral, then he OBVIOUSLY felt it. Yoda FELT Anakin's turn to the dark side. This is common knowledge.

Segeeth
Read carefully what I said and you may understand. And in reply to your second sentence, I just want to make clear that I did not at one point say that he didn't see it. I am in fact saying that he saw the events that took place at the funeral but did not feel Ragnos passing.

tdtd
I don't understand what you are saying. If he doesn't physically see something then he obviously both feels it and sees it in his dreams. He saw and more importantly felt the passing of Ragnos, which caused him to wake up from his nightmare.

Silent Carnage
They make it all the way. Luke has to be careful around number 8 though he might be able to stall Nadd while Ragnos and Exar go more offensive.

Segeeth
Originally posted by tdtd
I don't understand what you are saying. If he doesn't physically see something then he obviously both feels it and sees it in his dreams. He saw and more importantly felt the passing of Ragnos, which caused him to wake up from his nightmare.

Well technically he saw it as a vision through his dream and did not feel Ragnos passing through the force.

tdtd
Right but when you see it as a vision through your dream, you "feel" it, which would give you the nightmare and wake you up.

Segeeth
That's not actually right. You are saying that through the force he felt Ragnos' spirit fade away. The force actually showed him in his dream (through a vision) the events in the comic that proceeded Odun Urr waking up from his dream/force vision. That is basically what happened. He did not feel Ragnos' spirit fading away through the force.

tdtd
Ragnos' death and passing caused such a tremor in the force that Jedi across the galaxy felt it. However, Odan Urr was not only able to feel it, but he was able to see it and interpret it.

Captain REX
Look, someone who needs to be rebanned! *points at Numan!* eek!

tdtd
hahah

w00t2112
tdtd, the skywalkers had the highest potential post Ruusan. Exar Kun, died half the age of DN Luke, it is logical to assume Kun had not achieved his full potential, nor full power, all Jedi and Sith, achieve their full power, as they age and gain experience, after their peak, their age gradually wears away their force potential, however Kun has displayed extraordinary powers, for a young Dark Lord, while the same Luke at the same age, displayed impressive skills, but none that equal Kun

Just like Sidious was revived, into a clone and moreso a younger body, he became much more powerful than his ROTJ counterpart. If Kun was the be revived, it can easily be concluded that he would be much more powerful than his former self, however since there is no proof of this, it cannot be counted more than speculation

However, you have effectively played feat wars with IKC, Kun drained the entire race of the Massassi, Luke cut down hundreds of Vong, including their leader. But draining thousands of lives, and causing their demise, is far more impressive than wielding a saber and cutting down Vong, whom were more powerful than your average soldier. Remeber Kun also defeated dark monsters, that were huge and created from Sith Alchemy, yet Kun's force powers, that came out as controlled beams out of the amulet were powerful enough to literally cut the Dark side monsters into pieces.

DN Luke has displayed impressive force abilities, at his full potential.
Exar Kun has displayed just as impressive abilities, during his younger age

Logic dictates that, Kun having reached the age of DN Luke, would be far more powerful than any incarntion of Luke.

Consider one last thing, tdtd, Kun had one comic written about him, Luke has almost 50 books, so for those who say that Luke has done more, he has only merely a full display of his power, unlike Kun who has very few feats to name, although impressive, so by bringing into the fight, so many feats, you have effectively displayed all of Luke's power, but you haven't proved that Kun is inferior to Luke.

tdtd
Nor has anyone proved vice versa. Again I use the logic that Luke did things Sadow did, although not to the full degree, without a meditation sphere and an amulet, while Kun had an amulet. And the vong could take on the Jedi, especially the Supreme Overlord who could take on many Jedi at once, so I fail to see how you can call them better than average soldiers. And the fact that he cut down an army of Vong with just his saber is far more impressive than Kun using his trusty amulet to blast things. I agree with you that Luke was older, but we do not know how old Kun was exactly, and we do know Luke accomplished far more and showed more impressive force powers without the use of any tools like amulets and sith magic.

Akechi Misuhide
Your point?


Again... your point?


Those beams were products of the amulet, not Kun. Anyways what is wrong with listing "feats" as you call them. Here...

Feat (from dictionary.com)

1. A notable act or deed, especially an act of courage; an exploit.
2. An act of skill, endurance, imagination, or strength; an achievement.
3. Obsolete. A specialized skill; a knack.

Saying that you cannot use feats in an argument is like saying that OT duelists are better than is seen because of 70s special effects. Granted there was only one comic on Kun. But that comic described and listed plenty of feats that Kun accomplished. Your trying to tell me that if there were more comics on Kun that he would have more powerful feats each comic? Fanboy garbage. What we have on Kun is plenty enough to give us a good idea of how powerful he is.



There is this gaping hole in this argument... Kun never lived to ripe old age so were not talking about a fifty year old Kun vs DN Luke. Hell we have no idea how powerful Kun would be at that age. It's like trying to measure Anakin at full potential. It cannot be done.



Nai Fohl has already proved that DN Luke is more powerful than Kun. Assuming that if more Kun comics were made that he would display feats on Luke's level is crap. Thats total speculation. Again read my above argument.

tdtd
I completely agree with you.

w00t2112
Originally posted by Akechi Misuhide
Your point?


Again... your point?


Those beams were products of the amulet, not Kun. Anyways what is wrong with listing "feats" as you call them. Here...

Feat (from dictionary.com)

1. A notable act or deed, especially an act of courage; an exploit.
2. An act of skill, endurance, imagination, or strength; an achievement.
3. Obsolete. A specialized skill; a knack.

Saying that you cannot use feats in an argument is like saying that OT duelists are better than is seen because of 70s special effects. Granted there was only one comic on Kun. But that comic described and listed plenty of feats that Kun accomplished. Your trying to tell me that if there were more comics on Kun that he would have more powerful feats each comic? Fanboy garbage. What we have on Kun is plenty enough to give us a good idea of how powerful he is.



There is this gaping hole in this argument... Kun never lived to ripe old age so were not talking about a fifty year old Kun vs DN Luke. Hell we have no idea how powerful Kun would be at that age. It's like trying to measure Anakin at full potential. It cannot be done.



Nai Fohl has already proved that DN Luke is more powerful than Kun. Assuming that if more Kun comics were made that he would display feats on Luke's level is crap. Thats total speculation. Again read my above argument.

1) I stated it was speculation for one
2) I was never arguing that Kun was more powerful than DN luke, i was merely proving that DN is unable to compare to Kun, as he is much older and has reached his full potential
3) The Best comparison for Kun and Luke, would be JA or DE, whereas in both time periods, Kun abosuletely owns Skywalker

Then why is that Ragnos is crowned as the most powerful of the most powerful, whereas we have abosuletely no known knowledge of his powers? His impressive feats, are few, although they imply alot, just as Luke's feats imply he is more powerful than Kun, does not mean he is.

Luke defeated armies of Vong, this is the equalivent at most, of Kun draining all the power of the Massassi. The beams, were amplified by the amulet, however without Kun, the beams would not simply appear out of midair, so you're saying that the amulet can fire beams of his own accord?

DN luke is superior to Kun, due to being older, and more experienced, however, it cannot be stated that Luke has more skills or potential than Kun, it can only be agreed that Luke, is superior to Exar Kun, due to having more feats.

w00t2112
Originally posted by tdtd
Nor has anyone proved vice versa. Again I use the logic that Luke did things Sadow did, although not to the full degree, without a meditation sphere and an amulet, while Kun had an amulet. And the vong could take on the Jedi, especially the Supreme Overlord who could take on many Jedi at once, so I fail to see how you can call them better than average soldiers. And the fact that he cut down an army of Vong with just his saber is far more impressive than Kun using his trusty amulet to blast things. I agree with you that Luke was older, but we do not know how old Kun was exactly, and we do know Luke accomplished far more and showed more impressive force powers without the use of any tools like amulets and sith magic.

1) he had a Kaiburr crystal intergrated into his lightsaber, which effectly boosts his force power.

2) There was only one Sumpreme Overlord, and i was arguing for the majority of your average Vong

3) Luke did not create an Illusion of an entire fleet, he merely created copies of one or two ships

4) So now you think DN Luke > Sadow?

How can you state that Kun had to use the amulet to blast things? He is a complete unknown without the his amulet, you're speculating that Kun would be much weaker without it, but never is it stated that the amulet was required to emit those blasts, nor was it stated that the amulet boosts his force power, it merely focuses Kun's force rage, turning it more powerful than it would be otherwise.

I am not saying Kun > DN Luke, im merely stating that Kun, whilst will be defeated by DN Luke, is not infact weaker in below Luke, its by the fact, we have no idea what Kun's full potential would be, so therefore arguing that DN Luke is completely superior to Kun, in Lightsaber combat and Force Potential is wrong.

Sith Magic, is another section of the force, it was developed by the Ancient Sith, and rarely does it require any forms of ritual, it wasnt a tool, it was knowledge.

btw, when i stated about Kun, having fewer books written about Luke, it means that Kun, hasn't got every single of his abilities displayed, for all we know it may be 1/10th of his strength, or it could be half, it can only be speculated. Whereas Luke, has had his abilities, depicted, completely and word for word, it gives us a strong image of his power, but it does not neccesarrily mean that Kun cant have done similar feats.

However based on the evidence given, DN Luke is superior to Kun at his demise, but by comparing DE and JA Luke, to Kun, its logical to assume that Kun is superior to Luke in force potential, and combat skills, as Kun is the only one to have invented a unique Double Bladed Lightsaber style.

Illustrious
And as far as we can establish definitively, that and killing Freedon Nadd are the only thing that it did.

There is no proof that any of his other feats are a result of the amulet at all. If anything, there is definitive proof that Kun powered the amulet or the amulet grew with Kun.

It is completely irrelevant either, because you can not establish Kun's power without the amulet, as he went dark side as soon as he grabbed it. So anything about that point is moot speculation. Besides, it would be irrelevant anyway, because a fight between the two is not going to have Kun walking in naked.



No it isn't. By that notion, since we see Leia beating Jabba, and we only see Ragnos' spirit floating around, Leia actually has the higher end feat.

The issue isn't that you're using a feat. Indeed, you do need feats. But you need to put them in context. I can just as easily say Bane could force storm. But then I'd be conveniently leaving out that he only conjectured that he needed help from other sith to cast a planet-wide force storm.

By this, NJO Luke controlling a black hole means what, exactly? Is he going to use this in a fight? The feat was duplicated by Kyp.

So since Aleema was able to confuse people with tangible illusions, she's at the very top? No, because she's shown to be a relative weakling, hardly on the same level as many individuals.



No, that's not the point, and you're missing it.

Luke has about 50 books, Kun (as a dark sider) has about 5 short "graphic novels" to draw feats on.

Obviously if you come up with a list, Luke would have a far greater list to draw upon. It's irrelevant, because we aren't taking a continuous sample of their abilities. Any assumed fight would be taking place at the top of their abilities, unless otherwise stated.

So you take what you see in comics, and you apply them logically in juxtaposition.

It's those people who think that Luke's feats can stand alone.



Notice how he never said that.

He said that since Kun was younger than Luke and accomplished more things, it's untrue and stupid to just assume that Luke Skywalker had the all-ambiguous "more potential."

That's a very logical statement.



Proved? Where?

He conjectured that through some of his upper end feats exceed the listed feats of Exar Kun. He assumed that because Exar Kun didn't do X, he couldn't.

That's not "proof." That's "speculation."

We don't see Kun taking a crap. Does that mean he can't do it? Kun froze the senate, walked in, and without much apparent effort, manipulated the chancellor, killed Vodo, and tossed Sylvar aside.

So we don't even see the upper limit of Exar Kun's abilities, and he was still able to rather easily defeat arguably the most revered master of the order, who could make his staff more powerful than a lightsaber.

You need to get some reading comprehension, he never stated that Kun would have performed higher feats. He stated that Kun's feats were very comparable to what Luke has done, and he did them at a younger age, ergo the argument that Luke has more potential completely doesn't apply to this argument at all.

Feat Wars is listing feats and expecting that those particular feats (without circumstance or evidence) stand alone.

It would be like me saying the following:

Revan beat Echani, beat Mandalore, and beat Malak while empowered by the Star Forge.

What are the circumstances surrounding those three victories? Unknown. What are the powers of those three individuals? Unspecified. How much power did Malak have? Uncertain.

Great. So you officially gave me three garbled feats that have no relevance as we can't establish anything from them.

You need context, I don't care if you have 2 feats or 500. If you can't establish context with them, you're done, sit down.

Got it? QED.

tdtd
Originally posted by w00t2112
1) he had a Kaiburr crystal intergrated into his lightsaber, which effectly boosts his force power.

2) There was only one Sumpreme Overlord, and i was arguing for the majority of your average Vong

3) Luke did not create an Illusion of an entire fleet, he merely created copies of one or two ships

4) So now you think DN Luke > Sadow?

How can you state that Kun had to use the amulet to blast things? He is a complete unknown without the his amulet, you're speculating that Kun would be much weaker without it, but never is it stated that the amulet was required to emit those blasts, nor was it stated that the amulet boosts his force power, it merely focuses Kun's force rage, turning it more powerful than it would be otherwise.

I am not saying Kun > DN Luke, im merely stating that Kun, whilst will be defeated by DN Luke, is not infact weaker in below Luke, its by the fact, we have no idea what Kun's full potential would be, so therefore arguing that DN Luke is completely superior to Kun, in Lightsaber combat and Force Potential is wrong.

Sith Magic, is another section of the force, it was developed by the Ancient Sith, and rarely does it require any forms of ritual, it wasnt a tool, it was knowledge.

btw, when i stated about Kun, having fewer books written about Luke, it means that Kun, hasn't got every single of his abilities displayed, for all we know it may be 1/10th of his strength, or it could be half, it can only be speculated. Whereas Luke, has had his abilities, depicted, completely and word for word, it gives us a strong image of his power, but it does not neccesarrily mean that Kun cant have done similar feats.

However based on the evidence given, DN Luke is superior to Kun at his demise, but by comparing DE and JA Luke, to Kun, its logical to assume that Kun is superior to Luke in force potential, and combat skills, as Kun is the only one to have invented a unique Double Bladed Lightsaber style.

For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

When did Kun start training early? Ulic didn't. Nomi didn't. Kun isn't shown to have. Jedi training since birth isn't a TOTJ concept.

w00t2112
Originally posted by tdtd
For one, the kyber crystal according to IKC was from Splinter in the Minds eye which is as far from canon as possible so that doesn't count. No I don't think DN Luke>Sadow but I don't necessarily see Sadow>DN Luke although it's possible and maybe likely, especially with his illusion trick and angry supernova blast.

Illustrious sure you can say that Kun did a lot of special things at a younger age than Luke dude, while I can argue that Luke never started Jedi training until the age that Kun perhaps died? And Kun started training early correct? So how would you refute that?

As Illustrious, said Ulic didn't, and yet at the age Luke was, he performed feats that far surpassed luke in ANH, ESB and ROTJ, yet that does not prove Ulic > Luke

Note: I do not include feats such as blowing up the death star in ANH, the feats that are discussed, also have to be relevant, Luke in OT, never demonstrated any skills in lightsaber and force combat.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Illustrious
Proved? Where?

He conjectured that through some of his upper end feats exceed the listed feats of Exar Kun. He assumed that because Exar Kun didn't do X, he couldn't.

Raynar used force attacks that needed several dozens of Jedi to resist even when Raynar was quite far away. If Exar could have reproduced that he would have taken down the Jedi above Yavin 4 step by step. He didn't even think about something like that.



How is this a match or even close to control 375 planets filled with Killiks and other people, using their combined force potential or the guy who blocked that amount of energy ?



Where is the context here ? DN Luke wrecked the most powerful people of his time or of the times of his different incarnations and he rather easily tooled an army consisting of members of an ancient warrior race that look quite much stronger compared to Kun's massassi. Could Vodo have done the same ? How strong is Odan Urr compared to DE Sidious or Raynar. No context there. So anything we have are assumptions.

Now I've provided context for Raynars power. It took 8 or 10 untrained freaks to force push stardestroyers out of a star-system. It took dozens of trained Jedi to block one of Raynars force attacks. Now logic dictates that whatever amount of power Raynar was wielding it had to be several times greater than the power that was used to force push a freaking star-destroyer backwards with velocity above speed of light. And Luke simply blocked it.

And to put that into a more scientific context (in terms of the SW universe): The energy needed to accelerate 1 KG of mass to speed of light is roughly 9E16 J (assuming that Einstein was right).

A stardestroyer has a mass of 25 mio metric tons (that was the only number I could find. Seing that the Titanic - empty - had a weight of 21.831 metric tons I guess that might fit).

That means the energy needed to accelerate a Star-Destroyer to the speed of light (combined potential of Luke's students in the JA trilogy) would roughly be 2E24 J or 2 YJ. That's the energy hitting the earth being produced by the sun in 13 days and Luke absorbed multiple times that.
Or to make it clearer: That's the energy created by 21,400,000,000 megatons of exploding TNT or 214,000,000 Hiroshima bombs or - back to SW - the combined power of 53,500,000 turbolaser shots from an Imperial Star Destroyer (number taken from stardestroyer.net were a turbolaser shot is 4 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb).

Ever seen Kun wielding such an amount of energy ? That makes at least Kuns amulet blasts look like a joke.



And the argument that Kun performed greater feats doesn't also apply because we know that the Dark Side is the quicker way to power. In fact we have seen that a 60-year-old Dark Sider is equal to a 900 year old Jedi Master. So unless Kun performed his feats in the age of 3 that greater feats in the same age can be explained by his submission to the Dark Side (and it's mentioned that this gave him a huge boost in power).
And this is not even mentioning that Luke in Kun's age had only a few weeks of training.

tdtd
Yep yep I agree. I also agree that Kun performed better feats and was more powerful at his age than Luke was at his but there's no evidence when both of them started training not to mention Luke had to teach himself most of the things while Kun had access to everything. You can call them crutches or whatever but at the end Luke did a lot more than Kun with less, so yes w00t Luke>Kun but we will never know Kun's full potential til they make another comic about him.

Illustrious
Okay, and Freedon Nadd floored Vodo when he (Nadd) was in a tomb and Vodo was on his ship. He mentally floored Nomi when Nomi tried to use Battle Meditation when he was possibly miles away.



Demonstrate the level of these combined 375 planets. These facts need to be substantiated before you run off saying 1 + 1 = 2.

Pseudomath doesn't always apply.



And at the same time, Luke needed help to push Sidious' storm back on him. He was thrown around by Raynar who cracked his helmet. Did Kun (as a dark lord) ever show himself to be threatened to such a level?

Short answer: No.

You still fail to make a point.



And again, these physics concepts when applied to an abstraction as the force need to be substantiated.

How many "joules" does... Battle Meditation require?

When has the force been shown to be a tangible force (in Newtons)? If that was the case, people pushed of the force would find pressure from one area of their body. Has that ever happened?

Has it ever been established that the force applied would be a tangible amount of energy (in units such as joules)? Again. No.

Show me where on earth force has ever been quantified in Joules, Newtons, Coulombs, or any other SI unit. Please.

If that was true, why didn't the star destroyer litterally crumble against the force?

If Raynar pushed Luke with that level of power, how come he only flew back into the wall, instead of through the wall? He sure didn't move at lightspeed when Raynar caught him off guard and pushed him.

Again, you're attempting to quantify force with SI units, again, show me where The Force (described as the living essence that flows through all people) has ever been quantified in any SI unit.

As for making Kun's amulet blast look like a joke, we'd have to know the consistency of the Sith beast.

Either way, I consider blowing large chunks of flesh clean off of an ancient Sith Beast > Pushing a human body into a wall fast enough to break a helmet. Again, relevant context.



By that logic, Luke going dark side in DE would have made him a verifiable god. That sure didn't happen.

Kyp only had a year (according to the timeline) of training before he took on a Leviathan. I guess that makes him > Luke.

Again, you're spewing examples, but never once do you put them in relevant context for comparison purposes.

tdtd
You're right Illustrious, freezing a few thousand, maybe hundred thousand at most, members of the senate is way more impressive than controlling planets and manipulating black holes, creating illusions, etc... You still fail to make a point how Kun would defeat DN Luke. Either join up with IKC to once again elevate Kun's status, or get off the Exar Kun bandwagon..

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
You're right Illustrious, freezing a few thousand, maybe hundred thousand at most, members of the senate is way more impressive than controlling planets and manipulating black holes, creating illusions, etc... You still fail to make a point how Kun would defeat DN Luke. Either join up with IKC to once again elevate Kun's status, or get off the Exar Kun bandwagon..

Where did I ever post that I was on the Exar Kun bandwagon? Not everyone here is a troll who's sole purpose is to try to not-so-subtly boost up Luke.

When did Luke "control" a planet. Give me the book/page numbers.

Manipulating black holes was duplicated by Kyp Durron. And again, how is this relevant? Hint: It's not.

Creating Illusions? Aleema created illusions on Luke's scale. Is Aleema > Luke?

Please.

tdtd
Kun froze the senate.. Joruus controlled 37,000 people. So Joruus > Kun? Please..

Plus I got it from The essential Star Wars chronology. You can find random things about it on the internet if you don't have the book. The other source was, and call it S canon or whatever crap you guys come up with, Wikipedia.

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
Kun froze the senate.. Joruus controlled 37,000 people. So Joruus > Kun? Please..

Plus I got it from The essential Star Wars chronology. You can find random things about it on the internet if you don't have the book. The other source was, and call it S canon or whatever crap you guys come up with, Wikipedia.

I was making fun of your logic for not putting the feats in context. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

So we see Luke control a black hole. Kyp did it too. How does that have any effect whatsoever on the fight?

I'm just saying stop arguing out of ignorance and bias because I don't see Luke as being more impressive than Kun, or vice versa necesarily.

tdtd
I'm not arguing out of bias dude, there is nothing to suggest either one of them can defeat each other in any type of combat, which is why you have to bring out Exhibit B. Force abilities. That's where the feats come in. Luke has displayed more impressive force abilities but does that mean he's better? Not necessarily but you can logically assume it.

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
I'm not arguing out of bias dude, there is nothing to suggest either one of them can defeat each other in any type of combat, which is why you have to bring out Exhibit B. Force abilities. That's where the feats come in. Luke has displayed more impressive force abilities but does that mean he's better? Not necessarily but you can logically assume it.

I already showed how ridiculously unsound these feats can be. Kyp also controlled a black hole, is he superior to Kun? Aleema created more advanced illusions than Luke, is she > Luke?

The difference in this argument is that IKC has at least brought in scans and quotes and put them in legitimate context (even if they are a bit distorted). The Luke supporters have failed to do so except bring up contextless feats and vague abstractions such as "he swung his saber as if 20, zOMG."

tdtd
So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

IKC
Originally posted by tdtd
So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

I'm going to make it clearer to you, as you obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension:

Put it in context.

w00t2112
As i have stated, it took, Luke, 20 years to reach his full potential, comparing DN Luke to Kun is biased, and while i've made a thread about it, this thread is not about Kun > Luke or Luke > Kun, the most comparable figures is DE, JA Luke to Kun, indeed Luke may have displayed greater abilities, yet he took many years to achieve it, however Kun, met his doom before he had even reached his full potential, yet, Kun displays feats on par with DN Luke, he just doesnt display as much feats, it doesnt mean DN Luke > Kun, it merely means Kun was more of an unknown, if Kun had equal amount of books, and references about him, as DN Luke it would be a much fairer comparison.

Hell Kun may have been able to blow up stars if he reached his full potential, yet this cannot count because he is unknown at full potential.


Once again, do not use feat listing to prove that another character is stronger than another, because its pointless and proves, what the character did, but not whether he is superior or not.

Illustrious
Originally posted by tdtd
So how would you explain Emerald Lightning and going through an army of VOng?

Okay, and Nomi was able to completely strip a powerful Jedi/Sith from the force. I think that beats instant-killing a non-force user.

Your point?

Do you honestly think Nomi would beat Exar in a fight?

How does half those feats you listed help Luke at all?

Does controlling a black hole help him? No. He sure won't be controlling a black hole while fighting off Exar Kun.

Does "controlling a planet" help him (the closest I came up with this feat is cloaking a planet, not controlling it and the sentient life aboard)? No. It's a versus match anyway.

Does being able to shoot emerald lightning help him? Unspecified, because Kun is a force user with access to more offensive force powers. Will he be able to instantkill Kun? I highly doubt that, as he isn't exactly shown using that against a force user, or using it in another context when it would have saved his ass.

Does "swinging his lightsaber like it's 20 blades" help him? Establish and quantify how effective that was. Again, you have Jaina's hyperbolic words with no context.

In short, you've proven nothing except list feats. Refer to IKC's "Feat Wars" sig if you need any more proof on how ridiculous that is.

tdtd
Right, you guys(especially IKC)provide feats for Kun and I counter with DN Luke's feats. Yea Kun died while DN Luke lived to defeat the most powerful enemies time after time, so youre going to discredit Luke for living? And Illustrious you keep telling me I haven't proven anything about Luke defeating Kun, yet I've still seen no evidence about Kun being on par with Luke.

w00t2112
Yet, you have ignored the facts, that Kun is not comparable to DN Luke for 2 reasons:

1) Sources are highly in Luke's favour
2) Kun is a villian, Luke is a hero, obviously, you cannot have a villain winning it all, that goes against the general cliche in book/comic writing, and you're right Luke has defeated villians in HIS time, and merely proving feats that someone double his age, and double his experience, and double the time he had to learn various skills, really puts him above Kun, like i said Kun is relatively only comparable to DE Luke, in which case Kun pwns him

Kun at full potential would defeat any incarnation of Luke ( Speculation ) however its a logical one.

Wesker
Originally posted by Illustrious
Okay, and Nomi was able to completely strip a powerful Jedi/Sith from the force. I think that beats instant-killing a non-force user.

Your point?

Do you honestly think Nomi would beat Exar in a fight?

How does half those feats you listed help Luke at all?

Does controlling a black hole help him? No. He sure won't be controlling a black hole while fighting off Exar Kun.

Does "controlling a planet" help him (the closest I came up with this feat is cloaking a planet, not controlling it and the sentient life aboard)? No. It's a versus match anyway.

Does being able to shoot emerald lightning help him? Unspecified, because Kun is a force user with access to more offensive force powers. Will he be able to instantkill Kun? I highly doubt that, as he isn't exactly shown using that against a force user, or using it in another context when it would have saved his ass.

Does "swinging his lightsaber like it's 20 blades" help him? Establish and quantify how effective that was. Again, you have Jaina's hyperbolic words with no context.

In short, you've proven nothing except list feats. Refer to IKC's "Feat Wars" sig if you need any more proof on how ridiculous that is.

This about nails it.

tdtd
Originally posted by w00t2112
Yet, you have ignored the facts, that Kun is not comparable to DN Luke for 2 reasons:

1) Sources are highly in Luke's favour
2) Kun is a villian, Luke is a hero, obviously, you cannot have a villain winning it all, that goes against the general cliche in book/comic writing, and you're right Luke has defeated villians in HIS time, and merely proving feats that someone double his age, and double his experience, and double the time he had to learn various skills, really puts him above Kun, like i said Kun is relatively only comparable to DE Luke, in which case Kun pwns him

Kun at full potential would defeat any incarnation of Luke ( Speculation ) however its a logical one.

Yep, an illogical speculation is all it is. Also by Logic #1, we can't compare Nadd to Kun because sources are in Kun's favor? We can't compare Sadow to Tulak Hord because there are more sources describing Sadow's power? You've called me a fanboy but your logic you're obviously showing favoritism over Kun. Nobody knows Kun's potential so with that DN Luke>Kun

tdtd
Originally posted by tdtd
Yep, an illogical speculation is all it is. Also by Logic #1, we can't compare Nadd to Kun because sources are in Kun's favor? We can't compare Sadow to Tulak Hord because there are more sources describing Sadow's power? You've called me a fanboy but your logic you're obviously showing favoritism over Kun. Nobody knows Kun's potential so with that DN Luke>Kun



Also yes illustrious thank you for pointing out my feats and that they dont prove anything. So now point out how Kun would take down Luke. You seem to be the only logical source on here, without showing bias anywhere.

w00t2112
Originally posted by tdtd
Yep, an illogical speculation is all it is. Also by Logic #1, we can't compare Nadd to Kun because sources are in Kun's favor? We can't compare Sadow to Tulak Hord because there are more sources describing Sadow's power? You've called me a fanboy but your logic you're obviously showing favoritism over Kun. Nobody knows Kun's potential so with that DN Luke>Kun

Indeed we cant compare Nadd to Kun, nor Sadow to Tulak, whenever you see a thread about Nadd vs Kun, there is not real winner, unless of course IKC comes up with something, Like i said, DE and JA Luke is the best comparison for Kun, in both cases it shows Kun to be superior to Luke, how am i showing favouritism? I'm merely stating the unfairness of the comparison, you can list up to 100 feats for Luke and KUn can have at most 10, obviously the sheer amount of what someone does it would certainly look more impressive. Hell Obi Wan's feats were more impressive than Tulak's does that mean Obi > Tulak? No.

EDIT : How is it a illogical speculation?

tdtd
I don't remember anymore. I'm enjoying DE right now, this is quite interesting.

IKC
Originally posted by w00t2112
Indeed we cant compare Nadd to Kun, nor Sadow to Tulak, whenever you see a thread about Nadd vs Kun, there is not real winner, unless of course IKC comes up with something, Like i said, DE and JA Luke is the best comparison for Kun, in both cases it shows Kun to be superior to Luke, how am i showing favouritism? I'm merely stating the unfairness of the comparison, you can list up to 100 feats for Luke and KUn can have at most 10, obviously the sheer amount of what someone does it would certainly look more impressive. Hell Obi Wan's feats were more impressive than Tulak's does that mean Obi > Tulak? No.

EDIT : How is it a illogical speculation?

Yes, "unless of course I come up with something." Sure.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun is above Nadd. Check out TOTJ: Knights of the Old Republic. He never fought an army of Jedi as the ridiculous KOTOR game suggests, and Onderon is described as a remote backwater that was just discovering space travel four hundred years after Nadd's death. This places his feat of conquering Onderon, while still impressive, into new context: Nadd could merely have strafed the place in his ship to conquer it, for example.

Combine this with the fact that Kun was able to perform feats as a spirit that were similar to Nadd's own, and that Kun's were performed 4000 years after his own death, and it's probably safe to say that he's above Nadd.

There's "something."

Illustrious pretty much summed up the debate, really:

tdtd
IKC just because 1 person agrees with you out of many doesn't mean he summed up the fight. And hell he even said there's no way to tell that either would beat the other. But in terms of sheer force power Luke is superior to Kun. Sure you can cry and make excuses that Kun died young but that's his problem. I can't wait til the crap you'll make up for LOTF.

Wesker
I'd love to see you make a comprehensive and worthwhile argument in favor of your bias, tdtd.

tdtd
Bias? Lol. There is no "comprehensive and worthwhile" argument I can make. Hell none of you can make it for any characters in star wars because it's purely speculative. If you're going to tell me i've shown bias towards Luke, then i'm going to turn around and tell you you have OBVIOUSLY and conclusively shown bias towards Kun. We don't know his saber capabilities compared to Luke's. There are some vs. threads that shouldn't be made because they are purely speculation and all the fanboys will come out crying. Since we CANT make any definitive argument towards either character, we should look at their force abilities. Yes Kun died young blah blah whatever other biased excuse you can make but the fact remains that DN Luke has shown far greater force powers than Kun. Now i'm not saying they will help him in a fight, but DN Luke seems a lot more powerful than Kun. I would put Kun on par with NJO Luke(Sorry IKC).

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>