DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

Wesker

Originally posted by tdtd
Just because you're a TOTJ fanboy doesn't mean there's someone with a bigger brain. Oh what's that, a bigger brain has nothing to do with more knowledge of star wars? Typical imbecile..

I think you missed the point: while Nai has raised a better constructed and lengthier argument than you EVER have, nothing is "established". Such as his point that the dark side is a "quicker" path to power. Well, in a sense that is true. But it does not produce power where there is none. Even when Kun embraces the dark side, it says explicitly that it's drawing on hate already there. Likewise, woot has brought up a damn good point- that even if DN Luke is superior (through sheer demonstration of lightsaber and force feats) the fact remains that Kun accomplished a level of power that Luke didn't possess until way into middle age. You've brought up the point of Luke reaching his potential (Which you insist on throwing in there even when we supposively "establish" that potential is moot) but you've skirted the fact that Kun's potential was likely far from filled, and he is still comparable with the venerable Luke Skywalker for sheer power and skill. Hell, everything he did was within a very short timespan and with very little training.

Meh, I'm going to stop right here. I have been putting off setting forth a good thought out and supported argument and I'm not going to do it right now.

Fishy

one thing, how the hell is that a good point? What does it even have to do with anything? Even if it took him nine hundred years it wouldn't have made him weaker. And what does it matter how long he trains before he's more powerful then Kun? It doesn't. For all we know Kun reached his potential and Luke isn't half way there, or the other way around. I really don't see the relevance to any of this in a vs fight.

The character his strength matters not how long it took him or her to reach it.

tdtd

Congrats, he constructed a better argument based on my feats... But yea lets downplay my post since it's the best you could do at this point. Again, we do not know Kun's potential, whoever said it was like trying to figure out Anakin's. We know that Luke did more with less access to anything, created emerald lightning, was the first as we know to manipulate black holes, etc... Granted yes Kun created his own lightsaber technique and the double sided saber. I'm not arguing that Kun sucks, he's one of the best, but you're just downplaying Luke's achievements and abilities while exaggerating Kun's when you say "Oh well Kun did blah blah blah in less time". Luke also managed to defeat the most powerful enemies of his era, while staying alive..

And fishy, good point.

zod69

Wesker

Originally posted by Fishy
one thing, how the hell is that a good point? What does it even have to do with anything? Even if it took him nine hundred years it wouldn't have made him weaker. And what does it matter how long he trains before he's more powerful then Kun? It doesn't. For all we know Kun reached his potential and Luke isn't half way there, or the other way around. I really don't see the relevance to any of this in a vs fight.

The character his strength matters not how long it took him or her to reach it.

It's a good point because while everyone's taking turns blowing Luke for his sheer skillz (and btw, I love how consistant Luke really is... He's being tossed from author to author, coming up with force powers literally out of his ass) the guy -supposively- has ALL this force knowledge and experience and time to work and study and train...

And Kun spends a few months and WTFpwns every force user of his time.

Tdtd was arguing potential, which is why I brought the point up. While I thought we had agreed that potential is a useless trait, he continues to bring it up whenever he gets the chance. And that's really irritating, hearing someone get all wound up over the "reached potential" of someone who's going to be sixty. It'd be like someone bragging about Yoda reaching his full potential over Anakin. WTF?

I think Nai raises an argument worth examining. I don't think tdtd has, and he's really just out to piss everyone else off.

zod69

BTW this is Numan. I am trying to uplift my ban again.

Wesker

Originally posted by zod69
Exactly. And if Luke had been training since he was as young as Exar did, it is likely that he would have become as powerful as he is in DN a lot earlier. Also Kun had access to a lot of artifacts that greatly multiplied his power in the force, and it is not clear whether he would have ever become as powerful as he did with the artifacts.

Heh? They didn't train from youth in TOTJ era...

Wesker

Originally posted by zod69
BTW this is Numan. I am trying to uplift my ban again.
Reported. Go away, Numan.

tdtd

Actually Wesker, try gaining some reading comprehension. I only mentioned Luke's potential once and never again. Nai's argument was based on the feats I posted, since nobody before that defended Luke in any way. And we're "blowing" Luke as you call it because you and IKC have been verbally fellating Kun for G-d knows how long, so obviously you would get upset when Kun's achievements aren't comparable to someone like Luke anymore. And Kun spent a few months? Nice speculation.... Unlike you I'm not a fanboy of anybody except maybe Ragnos, but I love to argue with fanboys.

zod69

Originally posted by Wesker
Heh? They didn't train from youth in TOTJ era...

Do you have proof? Vima trained from childhood.

tdtd

Of course he doesn't have proof, he has speculation. At least the things I have listed are proof..

zod69

Also I don't want any trouble. Part of my deal is that I lay off of the insults and do not break anymore rules. Think of it this way. If my ban is uplifted I will no longer cause any trouble and will be less of a nuisance. If it is not, I will act just as I did before and not tell anybody that it is me.

tdtd

Numan unfortunately when you diminsh the ability of someone's favorite character and you are on thin ice, there are going to be personal attacks.

zod69

That desn't matter to me. As long as I don't insult back and if Rex gives me another chance, I should be allowed to stay on these forums.

Wesker

Originally posted by tdtd
Actually Wesker, try gaining some reading comprehension.

Please. I read far better than you. You're the idiot who had the comic -supposively- right in front of him and was still wrong.

This is bullshit. You've said "DN Luke reached his full potential" on half a dozen threads if not more. Don't think you're fooling anyone by denying it.

No, Nai brought up things and used quotes from the books. He also put them in better context, though some of them can still be argued. All you'd say is one or two lines agreeing with whoever did the arguing for you and then claim it as your own thoughts. This is bullshit. You supposively just barely got the books. How can you argue shit you don't know, tdtd?

Actually, before you came along and this whole fiasco with Luke, I didn't give a damn one way or another how Kun stacked up against others. He was right below Freedan Nadd (Living) and that's all I thought about. I didn't put him on a pedestal and I certainly wasn't ever a Kun fanboy. But the recent "Kun-hating" faction is starting to get annoying. At least IKC has scans and good arguments. His opposition is comprised of you (A troll), Fishy (Who nitpicks too goddamn much and the whole argument gets off track), Numan (The socking moron), and Nai (Who has good points compared to the rest of you, but barely posts). And if I recall correctly, when this first popped up, someone was saying NJo Luke > Kun, which was ridiculous in light of "established" knowledge about both parties, so I naturally objected.

I've never been a fanboy, tdtd. Fanboys argue ad naseum with underhanded debating tactics and don't listen to conventional proof and reason. That would be... you. And Numan. And a handful of other people around here. Not me.

Wesker

Originally posted by zod69
Do you have proof? Vima trained from childhood.

Vima had a solitary jedi mother raised away from the council. Her mother didn't receive jedi training from childhood, and neither did Ulic.

zod69

Nomi didn't train as a child out of choice. And whether Ulic did or not is unknown (to my knowledge). And also who am I a fanboy of?

Fishy

Originally posted by Wesker
It's a good point because while everyone's taking turns blowing Luke for his sheer skillz (and btw, I love how consistant Luke really is... He's being tossed from author to author, coming up with force powers literally out of his ass) the guy -supposively- has ALL this force knowledge and experience and time to work and study and train...

And Kun spends a few months and WTFpwns every force user of his time.

Tdtd was arguing potential, which is why I brought the point up. While I thought we had agreed that potential is a useless trait, he continues to bring it up whenever he gets the chance. And that's really irritating, hearing someone get all wound up over the "reached potential" of someone who's going to be sixty. It'd be like someone bragging about Yoda reaching his full potential over Anakin. WTF?

I think Nai raises an argument worth examining. I don't think tdtd has, and he's really just out to piss everyone else off.

True but just because his argument annoys you doesn't mean you have to start using it yourself. Whatever the hell he has claimed has nothing to do with the thread. and you saying that Kun learned things faster also has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't matter and bringing it up is quite irrelevant.

Oh and I don't nitpick I want to know the truth about characters instead of fanboy lies or exaggerations.. If thats nitpicking then sorry, but a lot of what is claimed is bullshit, based on lies or false information.

Wesker

I would like to say you're a fanboy of ignorance, since you've displayed amazing feats of noncomprehension.

And there's nothing at all that indicates Exar Kun was trained from childhood. If anything, the idea of a master making adult jedi spar together would suggest that they are all late coming jedi, as opposed to in Dark Rendezvous, where such sparring was among younger jedi.

Wesker

Originally posted by Fishy
True but just because his argument annoys you doesn't mean you have to start using it yourself. Whatever the hell he has claimed has nothing to do with the thread. and you saying that Kun learned things faster also has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't matter and bringing it up is quite irrelevant.

Of course it is. It's all quite irrelevant.

I haven't seen you nitpick on DN Luke once, Fishy. Haven't seen you nitpick on NJO Luke in months. Haven't seen you nitpick on Nihilus, or Ragnos, or Freedan Nadd, or anyone else really. But apparently you are giving Kun the full broadsides. That's a bit narrowminded on your part.

Fishy

No thats because I know jack shit about DN Luke so its really impossible to do. I have to just assume that what I'm told is the truth.

Nihilus just has one thing, the eating ability. That makes him win every fight, don't see how you can nitpick on that. Except for people using him in threads which just sucks because Nihilus is the suckiest thing ever. And I don't really see anybody claiming Ragnos or Nadd or anybody else (that I know off) has done things that they haven't done.

If I do something like that i'll be sure to adress it and argue it... But because it doesn't happen as much you won't see me arguing about it as much.

Wesker

I find that really rather silly. You don't question what you're told about Luke, but you'll argue and nitpick on Kun scans until the cows come home. I'm not sure what it is that prompted you to suddenly become the self-appointed Kun destroyer, but it's not a nice change.

zod69

Originally posted by Wesker
I would like to say you're a fanboy of ignorance, since you've displayed amazing feats of noncomprehension.

And there's nothing at all that indicates Exar Kun was trained from childhood. If anything, the idea of a master making adult jedi spar together would suggest that they are all late coming jedi, as opposed to in Dark Rendezvous, where such sparring was among younger jedi.

There is no proof that jedi in that era were trained later, however there is lots of evidence to suggest they were trained. Also it was Thon, a wise jedi master and not Nomi that decided Vima should be trained. There is also the fact that in KOTOR times which is around 40 years after Exar Kun's war, the jedi train children. This is shown in the new KOTOR comics in the scene with Vandar.

Fishy

Originally posted by Wesker
I find that really rather silly. You don't question what you're told about Luke, but you'll argue and nitpick on Kun scans until the cows come home. I'm not sure what it is that prompted you to suddenly become the self-appointed Kun destroyer, but it's not a nice change.

How can I say anything about Luke when I don't know anything about him? All I can do is doubt the information i'm given but without my own information I can't argue anything.

and I am not trying to destroy Kun, like I already said in another thread i'm trying to value him for what he really is, and some of the statements about him are just wrong or over the top.

Wesker

Originally posted by zod69
There is no proof that jedi in that era were trained later, however there is lots of evidence to suggest they were trained. Also it was Thon, a wise jedi master and not Nomi that decided Vima should be trained. There is also the fact that in KOTOR times which is around 40 years after Exar Kun's war, the jedi train children. This is shown in the new KOTOR comics in the scene with Vandar.

Again, you'ved missed the point- you're claiming Exar Kun advanced faster than Luke because he was trained from a child. Prove up. KOTOR is forty years later. Hell, in KOTOR the Jedi use terms like "padawan", they have sleeker, more modern ships, the lightsabers more closely resemble PT era, they have actual lightsaber forms, and half of the information that is supposed to reflect TOTJ times is screwed up or wrong. I would not consider KOTOR to be definate proof that Exar Kun was trained from infancy, and the fact that he was as an adult sparring against another jedi under the tutledge of Vodo (And he even remarked that he had not finished his lightsaber training yet, but in the PT times where jedi ARE trained from children, they start at about eight and finish in ten years with the basic Form I) hints that he wasn't.

Wesker

Originally posted by Fishy
How can I say anything about Luke when I don't know anything about him? All I can do is doubt the information i'm given but without my own information I can't argue anything.

and I am not trying to destroy Kun, like I already said in another thread i'm trying to value him for what he really is, and some of the statements about him are just wrong or over the top.

The natural default opinion on anything is skepticism, of course. But that's in absence of evidence and proof. If Luke supporters make a claim and offer no proof, how can you let them just slide by and say "I can't argue anything"? Sure you can. Argue what they put forth. Maybe it's hyperbolic. Maybe the feat is out of context. Maybe you can find out by doing online research. You sure poured over TOTJ comics left and right to "Help value Kun for what he really is" and yet you haven't so much as double checked a Luke supporter's claims?

That's not reasonable, that's daft. Instead of trying to install your own sense of mediation on Kun claims, try and keep a handle on the rest of the rabble. If you really are trying to "keep it real" around here, don't just hone in on one guy. Pick on them all or don't pick at all.

zod69

Originally posted by Wesker
Again, you'ved missed the point- you're claiming Exar Kun advanced faster than Luke because he was trained from a child. Prove up. KOTOR is forty years later. Hell, in KOTOR the Jedi use terms like "padawan", they have sleeker, more modern ships, the lightsabers more closely resemble PT era, they have actual lightsaber forms, and half of the information that is supposed to reflect TOTJ times is screwed up or wrong. I would not consider KOTOR to be definate proof that Exar Kun was trained from infancy, and the fact that he was as an adult sparring against another jedi under the tutledge of Vodo (And he even remarked that he had not finished his lightsaber training yet, but in the PT times where jedi ARE trained from children, they start at about eight and finish in ten years with the basic Form I) hints that he wasn't.

I think it is you who needs to prove up. The facts are in the time of Exar Kun, there are examples if jedi being trained as children, such as Vima. In the times of KOTOR, there are examples of jedi being trained early on as well (this is seen in the 2nd addition of the KOTOR comics in the scene with Vandar), and thought KOTOR may have not been reliable about TOTJ in terms of people like Ragnos and Sadow, it is very reliable in terms of Exar Kun which was only 40 years before, instead of 1000 years like the original TOTJ comics. There is no evidence to suggest that that jedi were trained later, so I do not have to prove anything. Also how are Kotor lightsabers more similar to PT lightsabers than the lightsabers in Exar Kun's time. In fact the the lightsabers of the younger generation are very similar. And I do not see how the Ebon Hawk for instance is sleeker than the Nebulon Ranger. And when Exar Kun says that he hasn't finished his training yet, I think he means that he hasn't mastered his form yet. Students in the PT era do not master their forms until very late, and by the gae of ten have not completely finished their training. And also, wasn't Exar Kun a practitioner of makashi? I think he is so I do not know what you are gettin at with your point about forms.

Wesker

No, you're taking the exception and making it the rule. Show me other jedi in KUN's time and not KOTOR that were trained from children.

zod69

Vima, as I have mentioned before. KOTOR is also only forty years afterwards, so if you think of the complete timeline of Star Wars, it is not that long. Numerous jedi such as Jolee Bindo were around at the time. And I think that my post explains how KOTOR times aren't that different to Exar Kun's time.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod69
Vima, as I have mentioned before. KOTOR is also only forty years afterwards, so if you think of the complete timeline of Star Wars, it is not that long. Numerous jedi such as Jolee Bindo were around at the time. And I think that my post explains how KOTOR times aren't that different to Exar Kun's time.

After the Sith War, the entire jedi Order was reformed... A lot of new rules were made. The Kotor Jedi Order is a completely different Jedi Order then the order from Kun his time, there is no evidence to suggest that what happened in Kotor times also happened during that time.

Kotor for instance has a Council, it doesn't allow love, or children or possesions. 40 years earlier that was completely different and not a problem. The Order probably reformed to prevent others from falling to the Dark Side like Ulic and Kun did. Kotor Jedi Order does not resemble Kun's Jedi Order.

Wesker

Originally posted by Fishy
After the Sith War, the entire jedi Order was reformed... A lot of new rules were made. The Kotor Jedi Order is a completely different Jedi Order then the order from Kun his time, there is no evidence to suggest that what happened in Kotor times also happened during that time.

Kotor for instance has a Council, it doesn't allow love, or children or possesions. 40 years earlier that was completely different and not a problem. The Order probably reformed to prevent others from falling to the Dark Side like Ulic and Kun did. Kotor Jedi Order does not resemble Kun's Jedi Order.

Fishy covers it.

zod69

Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're taking the exception and making it the rule. Show me other jedi in KUN's time and not KOTOR that were trained from children.

Thon did not give any evidence that Vima was an exception. If hardly any other jedi as young as her were trained as a jedi, a wise and traditional jedi wouldn't have decided to train her straight away without careful thought.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod69
Thon did not give any evidence that Vima was an exception. If hardly any other jedi as young as her were trained as a jedi, a wise and traditional jedi wouldn't have decided to train her straight away without careful thought.

Thon didn't give evidence Nomi was an exception either, and like I already said the entire Jedi Order reformed after what happened during the Sith Wars... Rules changed.

zod69

Akechi Misuhide

Originally posted by Fishy
The Order probably reformed to prevent others from falling to the Dark Side like Ulic and Kun did.
It seems they screwed up anyways...

Wesker

Numan, you are arguing out of your ass with nothing to show for it. Prove that someone in Kun's era besides Vima was trained from childhood. Then prove Kun was. Until then, you have nothing.

zod69

Originally posted by Fishy
Thon didn't give evidence Nomi was an exception either, and like I already said the entire Jedi Order reformed after what happened during the Sith Wars... Rules changed.

It is made very clear that Nomi's journey of the jedi was very unorthodox. The omniscient narrator says something about in the first issue od the Nomi Sunrider saga. Andur makes it clear that Nomi was delaying any jedi training out of choice. But lets not completely stray off topic here. there is still nio evidence that jedi in Kun's times trained later, and trying to disprove my argument doesn't change that. My main point to suggest that Kun did not have as much potential as Luke was that he only became somewhat godly when he accepted sith teachings and then his powers multiplied by very much. if Luke were to come across the same sith magic and turn over to the dark side, he would have grown stronger than Kun in a quicker amount of time.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod69
A few changes is not sufficient to say that the different orders are completely different. Jedi masters in the time of Exar Kun like Thon helped restore the jedi order. I doubt they would have made it too different.

Doubt all you want there is enough prove that they have.

No more love
Several Jedi council's, with one important one that rules the others and all Jedi
A Jedi Council that could actually order its members around instead of one that just gave advise
More centralized Jedi training, Vodo trained a few people on Dantooine after the reformations Dantooine got an entire academy (just an example)
A clear difference between ranks
Maybe even tests to become knights, i'm not sure if TOTJ had that

There is nothing to show that the order always trained children or adults, both seemed to happen during TOTJ times. You don't have any evidence to show otherwise.

zod69

Originally posted by Wesker
Numan, you are arguing out of your ass with nothing to show for it. Prove that someone in Kun's era besides Vima was trained from childhood. Then prove Kun was. Until then, you have nothing.

Look, you shouldn't take advantage of the fact that I am not going to insult you back by insulting me. I'm debating maturely and proffesionally, so it would be nice if you would do the same. In reply to 'You have nothing', you have not fully disproved what I said, and you have not given any evidence that they were trained a lot later, so I think you will find that I have much more then you do.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod69
It is made very clear that Nomi's journey of the jedi was very unorthodox. The omniscient narrator says something about in the first issue od the Nomi Sunrider saga. Andur makes it clear that Nomi was delaying any jedi training out of choice. But lets not completely stray off topic here. there is still nio evidence that jedi in Kun's times trained later, and trying to disprove my argument doesn't change that. My main point to suggest that Kun did not have as much potential as Luke was that he only became somewhat godly when he accepted sith teachings and then his powers multiplied by very much. if Luke were to come across the same sith magic and turn over to the dark side, he would have grown stronger than Kun in a quicker amount of time.

Thats unsupported bullshit. Luke turned Dark in DE and he didn't become all powerful then. He was far more powerful then that in NJO apparently.

tdtd

Originally posted by Wesker
Please. I read far better than you. You're the idiot who had the comic -supposively- right in front of him and was still wrong.

This is bullshit. You've said "DN Luke reached his full potential" on half a dozen threads if not more. Don't think you're fooling anyone by denying it.

No, Nai brought up things and used quotes from the books. He also put them in better context, though some of them can still be argued. All you'd say is one or two lines agreeing with whoever did the arguing for you and then claim it as your own thoughts. This is bullshit. You supposively just barely got the books. How can you argue shit you don't know, tdtd?

Actually, before you came along and this whole fiasco with Luke, I didn't give a damn one way or another how Kun stacked up against others. He was right below Freedan Nadd (Living) and that's all I thought about. I didn't put him on a pedestal and I certainly wasn't ever a Kun fanboy. But the recent "Kun-hating" faction is starting to get annoying. At least IKC has scans and good arguments. His opposition is comprised of you (A troll), Fishy (Who nitpicks too goddamn much and the whole argument gets off track), Numan (The socking moron), and Nai (Who has good points compared to the rest of you, but barely posts). And if I recall correctly, when this first popped up, someone was saying NJo Luke > Kun, which was ridiculous in light of "established" knowledge about both parties, so I naturally objected.

I've never been a fanboy, tdtd. Fanboys argue ad naseum with underhanded debating tactics and don't listen to conventional proof and reason. That would be... you. And Numan. And a handful of other people around here. Not me.

Please, we've seen how well you read.. Until you prove where I've said Luke has reached his potential, many times, you're just making a fool out of yourself.. You know, it's very easy getting quotes from books without reading them to prove a point. Apparently the internet is a foreign concept to you.. "I'm not a fan boy you are". Very nice "I know you are but what am I argument". All of your insignificant personal attacks make you look childish and pathetic.

zod69

Originally posted by Fishy
Doubt all you want there is enough prove that they have.

No more love
Several Jedi council's, with one important one that rules the others and all Jedi
A Jedi Council that could actually order its members around instead of one that just gave advise
More centralized Jedi training, Vodo trained a few people on Dantooine after the reformations Dantooine got an entire academy (just an example)
A clear difference between ranks
Maybe even tests to become knights, i'm not sure if TOTJ had that

There is nothing to show that the order always trained children or adults, both seemed to happen during TOTJ times. You don't have any evidence to show otherwise.

The jedi order may have slightly changed, but it can't have changed too much as people like Thon were still around. I posted something a page back I think which pointed out many similarities of the order. The facts are you have given no proof that the jedi in the time of Kun were trained much later. It is up to you to provide proof, as the jedi order in all other times have shown that jedi were trained very young, so seing as there is no proof to suggest otherwise, we have to assume that it is very likely it was still the same in this time as well.

tdtd

Both of you are speculating.

zod69

Originally posted by Fishy
Thats unsupported bullshit. Luke turned Dark in DE and he didn't become all powerful then. He was far more powerful then that in NJO apparently.

You seem to have missed my point. I said that a Luke who had not only turned to the dark side but also had as much access as kun had to sith teachings, he would have become more powerful. In DE, he only turned to the dark side and did not undergo all of the conditions which I had proposed.

zod69

Originally posted by tdtd
Both of you are speculating.

While I may be speculating, most of it is likely to be what it would have been like. And my last post explains why it is up to them to find proof.

tdtd

My point is Luke did more with less available to him. Obviously if he had help he would have been even more powerful but he pretty much trained himself with all those years while Kun had ancient Sith teachings... That is why DN Luke>Kun, besides the fact that he's superior to him in force abilities and maybe saber combat.

zod69

I know I agree with you. He had acces to far less knowledge that Kun had and he trained by the time he had trained as much as Kun likely had, he seem to grow very close to as powerful as Kun and if not more.

tdtd

I agree with that.

Gamblor

Why the hell are Fisto and Koon higher than Anakin and Obi-Wan?

tdtd

Who cares, DN Luke owns them.

Darth Traya

He either dies at Kun or if he manages to sneak a victory, he get tooled by Sadow.

tdtd

His victory over Kun is more than likely. Too bad I can't argue against Sadow who in my mind, totally pwns.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod69
You seem to have missed my point. I said that a Luke who had not only turned to the dark side but also had as much access as kun had to sith teachings, he would have become more powerful. In DE, he only turned to the dark side and did not undergo all of the conditions which I had proposed.

Kun had more knowledge from Osus then Kun did... Point moot.

And you can say whatever the hell you want to say, but its up to you to prove the order didn't change as much as its up to me to prove it did. And I have already shown you plenty of examples of a changing order. You on the other hand ignore the changes in the order that were made, and claim that the aging thing wasn't part of what was changed.

Even though its very likely that it was, especially when we consider Thon doesn't even care about training older people, Nomi's husband doesn't even care about training older people. 40 years later training older people is suddenly a very big deal.

Now unless you can show examples of the older order refusing to train old people we will just have to assume that they allowed it. And in fact without clear guidelines it would be up to the master to decide if he would or would not train older students.

@ Wesker: Where does the idea come from that Exar started training on a later age anyways?

Illustrious

Originally posted by zod69
Look, you shouldn't take advantage of the fact that I am not going to insult you back by insulting me. I'm debating maturely and proffesionally, so it would be nice if you would do the same. In reply to 'You have nothing', you have not fully disproved what I said, and you have not given any evidence that they were trained a lot later, so I think you will find that I have much more then you do.

It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?

This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.

Someone.

Anyone.

Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?

Originally posted by tdtd
Actually Wesker, try gaining some reading comprehension. I only mentioned Luke's potential once and never again. Nai's argument was based on the feats I posted, since nobody before that defended Luke in any way. And we're "blowing" Luke as you call it because you and IKC have been verbally fellating Kun for G-d knows how long, so obviously you would get upset when Kun's achievements aren't comparable to someone like Luke anymore. And Kun spent a few months? Nice speculation.... Unlike you I'm not a fanboy of anybody except maybe Ragnos, but I love to argue with fanboys.

Awesome, resort to insults when you want to prove a point. That's exactly what you should be doing.

You can't pick a side, list feats, and then use the reasoning "Nai proved it" whenever you want to make a point. Nai's points are all debatable. Show me evidence.

You realize the person that posted the most in this thread is TDTD, so calling other people who post in the thread as "nerds" really is counterproductive.

zod360

Originally posted by Fishy
Kun had more knowledge from Osus then Kun did... Point moot.

And you can say whatever the hell you want to say, but its up to you to prove the order didn't change as much as its up to me to prove it did. And I have already shown you plenty of examples of a changing order. You on the other hand ignore the changes in the order that were made, and claim that the aging thing wasn't part of what was changed.

Even though its very likely that it was, especially when we consider Thon doesn't even care about training older people, Nomi's husband doesn't even care about training older people. 40 years later training older people is suddenly a very big deal.

Now unless you can show examples of the older order refusing to train old people we will just have to assume that they allowed it. And in fact without clear guidelines it would be up to the master to decide if he would or would not train older students.

@ Wesker: Where does the idea come from that Exar started training on a later age anyways?

I don't fully get what you just said at the top, but if you are implying that Kun learnt as much from Ossus as he did from Korriban and Yavin 4, you need to seriously read more of TOTJ. And it is up to you to prove that jedi trained later in the time of Exar Kun, and not up to me to prove that jedi didn't, as throughout the history of the jedi order, they had trained from a young age, and there is no evidence to suggest that they did. Therefore we have to assume that they trained from childhood as that is how it has been throughout the history of star wars (including KOTOR times which was only 40 years later) and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I did not ignore the changes that you listed and actually responded to them via a quote. But there are as many similarities as there changes. I am not saying that the old order were as cautious as the later order, but that does not mean that they didn't train children, as Vima is a prime example of this and the reason they did not show others is that they would have probably not contributed much to the story. It is also clear that at the time training children seemed quite natural, and this is shown when Thon doesn't even hesitate in training Vima, and Andur was positive that she would be trained by Thon.

zod360

Actaully Illustrious I think that Kun and DE Luke would be close and could go either way, and was saying that Luke has more potential so before you start making assertions that are just wrong, maybe you should read slightly more carefully.

Fishy

Originally posted by zod360
I don't fully get what you just said at the top, but if you are implying that Kun learnt as much from Ossus as he did from Korriban and Yavin 4, you need to seriously read more of TOTJ. And it is up to you to prove that jedi trained later in the time of Exar Kun, and not up to me to prove that jedi didn't, as throughout the history of the jedi order, they had trained from a young age, and there is no evidence to suggest that they did. Therefore we have to assume that they trained from childhood as that is how it has been throughout the history of star wars (including KOTOR times which was only 40 years later) and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I did not ignore the changes that you listed and actually responded to them via a quote. But there are as many similarities as there changes. I am not saying that the old order were as cautious as the later order, but that does not mean that they didn't train children, as Vima is a prime example of this and the reason they did not show others is that they would have probably not contributed much to the story. It is also clear that at the time training children seemed quite natural, and this is shown when Thon doesn't even hesitate in training Vima, and Andur was positive that she would be trained by Thon.

and they didn't believe Thon would hesitate in training Nomi either, who was an adult. Which proves the point that the Jedi Order of that time trained both children and adults. You also haven't responded to the changes in the order yet, If you have quote your own post, otherwise respond to them.

And I meant Luke has more knowledge from Osus then Kun does.

tdtd

Originally posted by Illustrious
It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?

This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.

Someone.

Anyone.

Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?

Awesome, resort to insults when you want to prove a point. That's exactly what you should be doing.

You can't pick a side, list feats, and then use the reasoning "Nai proved it" whenever you want to make a point. Nai's points are all debatable. Show me evidence.

You realize the person that posted the most in this thread is TDTD, so calling other people who post in the thread as "nerds" really is counterproductive.

The term would be hypocritical if not counterproductive. Try again.. How does posting in this thread the most make me a nerd? And since you can't prove Kun is any better than Luke, the next thing we have to go buy is an example of all their force powers, in which Luke far surpasses Kun. I love it how all the people that verbally fellate Kun start calling other people fan boys because they don't agree with the fact that some of you have illogically elevated Kun to the status of Force God, when his force powers are below a lot of the characters.

w00t2112

Originally posted by tdtd
My point is Luke did more with less available to him. Obviously if he had help he would have been even more powerful but he pretty much trained himself with all those years while Kun had ancient Sith teachings... That is why DN Luke>Kun, besides the fact that he's superior to him in force abilities and maybe saber combat.

Luke had less avaliable to him, yes, and Kun has less feats written about him, and its as usual another unknown, how much Skywalker actually had, as well, by learning Sith Techniques, which are perhaps the darkest part of the force, how can you be sure Luke can even use it to Kun's extent?

If you want to speculate how much information Luke, had, then im speculating Kun did not have every or much of what he learned displayed, otherwise you can say Kun learned as much as Skywalker.

As usual, more information on a character means more feats are demonstrated, it doesnt however prove Luke > Kun, for you to prove that, you need equal amount of sources, to make it a fair comparison.

From what we have about Skywalker's lightsabers skill, and Kun's saber skill, Kun not only invented the first Double bladed lightsaber but perfected his own personal style, whilst Luke has demonstrated extreme power with his saber, he usually has the force guiding almost his every move, however, Ulic who is below Kun in terms of lightsaber combat ( when kun was at his peak ) was able to defeat a angry Jedi Master, without the force.

Its logical to assume, that Kun is superior to Luke in terms of saber combat

w00t2112

Originally posted by zod360
Actaully Illustrious I think that Kun and DE Luke would be close and could go either way, and was saying that Luke has more potential so before you start making assertions that are just wrong, maybe you should read slightly more carefully.

Illustrious is one of the most notable debaters here, long before you came.

Kun is leagues above DE Sidious, and it took the combined power of Leia;s child, leia and DE Luke to defeat DE Sidious

You want to argue feat wars? I'll argue feat wars with you, Kun at the age of DE Luke, froze hundreds of thousands of people, killed a revered Jedi Master, knocked down Sylvar and rescued his apprentice, he also managed to drain all the life force from every single massassi, which alone is more impressive then Luke cutting through armies of Vong.

As ive stated, Kun has not half the amount of sources about him, that Luke does, meaning whilst Luke will have a clear view of EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS FEATS, Kun has not displayed half of his why? Because, he died before the situation arose for him to demonstrate more of his power, and his ability to reach a higher potential, and for all those who argue that Luke had less knowledge, then by your means, you're proving Kun has not demonstrated 1% of his feats, thereby making Kun more of an unknown and making it harder for all you Luke Fanboys to prove Luke > Kun.

How do you prove it? You prove it by saying that if luke with so few knowledge can invent and demonstrate so many feats, and you're saying Kun had the Ancient Sith's knowledge, unless you're saying most of Sadow's Knowledge consists of an amulet, a freezing or controlling spell, you're effectively proving that Kun is more of an unknown, and even so he displays feats far more impressive than DE Luke, and feats on par with DN Luke, he only displays fewer feats.

Illustrious

tdtd

Originally posted by w00t2112
Luke had less avaliable to him, yes, and Kun has less feats written about him, and its as usual another unknown, how much Skywalker actually had, as well, by learning Sith Techniques, which are perhaps the darkest part of the force, how can you be sure Luke can even use it to Kun's extent?

If you want to speculate how much information Luke, had, then im speculating Kun did not have every or much of what he learned displayed, otherwise you can say Kun learned as much as Skywalker.

As usual, more information on a character means more feats are demonstrated, it doesnt however prove Luke > Kun, for you to prove that, you need equal amount of sources, to make it a fair comparison.

From what we have about Skywalker's lightsabers skill, and Kun's saber skill, Kun not only invented the first Double bladed lightsaber but perfected his own personal style, whilst Luke has demonstrated extreme power with his saber, he usually has the force guiding almost his every move, however, Ulic who is below Kun in terms of lightsaber combat ( when kun was at his peak ) was able to defeat a angry Jedi Master, without the force.

Its logical to assume, that Kun is superior to Luke in terms of saber combat

Kun's feats are NOT on par with DN Luke that's the point. And you want to say Kun had less to work with? Dear lord he had the guidance of an ancient sith, Sadow's Amulet, teachings, etc.. Luke would only be so lucky to have that kind of information. And no it is not logical to assume that Kun is better than Luke just because he invented his own style. Where does the logic come in? I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds. Obviously nothing about Kun's skill describes him being faster than the eye, so with that we can say Luke is superior to Kun. Just using your logic.

w00t2112

Originally posted by tdtd
Kun's feats are NOT on par with DN Luke that's the point. And you want to say Kun had less to work with? Dear lord he had the guidance of an ancient sith, Sadow's Amulet, teachings, etc.. Luke would only be so lucky to have that kind of information. And no it is not logical to assume that Kun is better than Luke just because he invented his own style. Where does the logic come in? I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds. Obviously nothing about Kun's skill describes him being faster than the eye, so with that we can say Luke is superior to Kun. Just using your logic.

Perhaps learning to read would help you, I said that he did not display all that he had learned, and did not say that he did not have the information, merely he was never placed in a situation where his life was threatened UNTIL thousands upon thousands of force users came after him, i doubt DN Luke would survive that, meaning in which case, any knowledge he possesed apart from entombing his spirit wouldn't enable him to survive.

Just like i said, Luke has around 10 times the amount of sources, Hence the sources that depict Kun's feats cannot be his only feats, they are his only feats displayed, and even those few feats are on par with DN Luke's

Draining Massassi = or > Defeating an Army of Vong

You say his Emerald Lightning is a instakill, yet it hasn't been proven that it would work on a force user, just as Kun's beams are instakill's yet it hasn't been proven, how can you prove Emerald Lightning > Kun's Sith Blast

Oh Dear Luke fanboy alert, whilst i've listed Kun's feats, i have not gone and said : Therefore Kun is more powerful than DN Luke.

"I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds"

From who's point of view and of those people who witnessed, had they witnessed the prowess of the Dark Lords that preceded them? No, the comment holds no value, it was merely based from words from a spectator who had never exeperienced Jedi vs Sith outside of Sidious and Luke, whilst Kun has been crowned by Ragnos, a sheer feat by that standard as well as being proclaimed as the "most formiadable student i have ever had" - Vodo, a jedi master, having trained Jedi for 600 years has more value than someone, who has at most 10 years of experience in viewing force users.

Gamblor

Uh, didn't Ragnos also invite Sidious and Vader to sit at Korriban and like, crown them?

Fishy

Yeah well the ancient sith did, if it was Ragnos I don't know. But Ragnos probably agreed with it, I know that much. Not like who said it matters, seeing as the Sith talk to each other and decide things together.

zod360

Originally posted by Illustrious
Strange how you completely avoid (or can't comprehend, perhaps?) my very valid question so you can come up with yet another "clever" retort. My, aren't we a funny one.

So tell me, since my reading comprehension is so bad, what relevant context is Luke superior to Kun in? Show and cite proof.

"It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?

This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.

Someone.

Anyone.

Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?"

If this is what you are talking about, I don't see what your point is. This seems more relevant to TDTD.

Wesker

Originally posted by Gamblor
Uh, didn't Ragnos also invite Sidious and Vader to sit at Korriban and like, crown them?
Ah, no.

Also, "zod"... You're a Numan sock. reported.

zod360

Everyone knows Wesker. Why don't you just report me again for kicks.

Fishy

Originally posted by Wesker
Ah, no.

Also, "zod"... You're a Numan sock. reported.

Actually Janus the Ancient Sith kinda did invite him... Ragnos was likely amongst them, there is no real prove that says this. But we know that the ancient sith talk about this kind off stuff, and there is just no way in hell Ragnos wouldn't have involved in these procedures, so Ragnos did invite him in one way or another.

tdtd

W00t, I didn't say that Luke>Kun because of his feats. You can call me a fanboy but I can use your logic and call you a fanboy because you constantly diminish Luke's feats and embellish Kun's. I don't know where you get that Luke had more things open to him, unless you can prove that I'll just say that Kun had Sadow's teachings, which gave him a very powerful advantage.. BTW draining massassi>fighting vong sounds like a fanboy comment. I can come out and say "Luke used only his lightsaber to fight off a whole army of Vong". THAT is more impressive. It won't help him in a fight with Kun but it's definitely more impressive. DN Luke is superior to Kun yes because he was older and had more time to train but that's all we have to work with. However I do give Kun the best hair award.

Wesker

Originally posted by zod360
Everyone knows Wesker. Why don't you just report me again for kicks.

Okay. Reported again.

tdtd

Ok so if Kun lived longer he could have possibly been more powerful in the force than Luke. But he didn't so we can't say "if if if".. On another note I just got the Sith War comic and it looks really tight, so I'm about to read it and see just how truly powerful Kun was.

Actually guys do you suggest first I read Freedon Nadd Uprising and DLOTH before the Sith War or what?

Wesker

Yeah, read it in sequence.

tdtd

ok gotcha, is there anything before the Freedon Nadd uprising? I'm not familiar with any comics written about Freedon Nadd as a human.

Fishy

Golden age of the Sith
The fall of the Sith Empire
and Knights of the old republic

all three take place before Freedon Nadd uprising, Knights of the old republic is a must read before the Freedon Nadd uprising, the other two... Well I would recommend it. But its not really necessary.

Wesker

KOTOR is not before the Freedan Nadd Uprising, Fishy.

It goes in order:

Golden Age of the Sith
Fall of the Sith Empire
Freedan Nadd Uprising
Tales of the Jedi
Dark Lords of the Sith
The Sith Wars
Knights of the Old Republic
Jedi versus Sith
Etc.

Fishy

Kotor Isn't...

The first comic about Ulic and Nomi however (which does take place before the Freedon Nadd uprising) is called

Tales of the Jedi: Knights of the Old republic.

Wesker

Ah, I gotcha.

tdtd

ok So I have TOTJ and Freedon Nadd coming in, I suppose I need to read all the KOTOR first.

w00t2112

Originally posted by tdtd
W00t, I didn't say that Luke>Kun because of his feats. You can call me a fanboy but I can use your logic and call you a fanboy because you constantly diminish Luke's feats and embellish Kun's. I don't know where you get that Luke had more things open to him, unless you can prove that I'll just say that Kun had Sadow's teachings, which gave him a very powerful advantage.. BTW draining massassi>fighting vong sounds like a fanboy comment. I can come out and say "Luke used only his lightsaber to fight off a whole army of Vong". THAT is more impressive. It won't help him in a fight with Kun but it's definitely more impressive. DN Luke is superior to Kun yes because he was older and had more time to train but that's all we have to work with. However I do give Kun the best hair award.

No i never said he had more to work with, i said that compared to Kun he has relatively alot more sources, and a more thorough depiction of his feats, i do not diminish Luke's feats, yet Kun killed all the massassi without even a weapon how is that less impressive that a hack'em away style? Just like Kun's technique wont help him, but his feat is substiantially more impressive as draining someone's lifeforce is logically assumed to be much harder than cutting a living organism in 2.

If Sadow's teachings are limited to the amulet and the sith spell we see, firstly how does that give Kun an advantage, secondly and more logically, less than half of kun's abilites were shown, consider in TOTJ, he had abosuletly no threat to him so he had no need to demonstrate of his power/abilities, whilst Luke had constant and numerous enemies, meaning Luke would most certianly would need to use more of his abilities if not all.

Oh, if we play trivia type games, Kun has a better name, better look and a better hairstyle stick out tongue

tdtd

I don't argue with any of that, so we have concluded that DN Luke is more superior because of his age and experience.. But yes I do agree with you. Kun is the coolest SW character with a kickass name, unbelievable Michael Bolton hair, and the suave of James Bond.

w00t2112

LOL, yeh, DN Luke is superior. *waits for IKC's rebutt*

Kun certianly needs more sources on him and his abilites though..all we have seen, is him pwning with a lightsaber, amulet blasts and a sith spell, heck we dont even see him using force lightning.

Akechi Misuhide

Originally posted by tdtd
I don't argue with any of that, so we have concluded that DN Luke is more superior because of his age and experience.. But yes I do agree with you. Kun is the coolest SW character with a kickass name, unbelievable Michael Bolton hair, and the suave of James Bond.

Better not let Samual Jackson see this... stick out tongue

tdtd

Originally posted by w00t2112
LOL, yeh, DN Luke is superior. *waits for IKC's rebutt*

Kun certianly needs more sources on him and his abilites though..all we have seen, is him pwning with a lightsaber, amulet blasts and a sith spell, heck we dont even see him using force lightning.

hahah yea.. On another note, I'm reading DE now and it looks like Luke is actually commanding the imperial fleet with his mind like Joruus was doing.. Pretty damn impressive.

IKC

Originally posted by w00t2112
LOL, yeh, DN Luke is superior. *waits for IKC's rebutt*

Kun certianly needs more sources on him and his abilites though..all we have seen, is him pwning with a lightsaber, amulet blasts and a sith spell, heck we dont even see him using force lightning.

Yeah "all we see him do" is beat the living shit out of the most powerful Force users of his age.

To quote Illustrious:

I'm waiting too.

tdtd

IKC we've already agreed, quit crying, or prove Kun can take Luke. We take what we have to work with..

Borbarad

Hmm...

I would say DN Luke would get at least to Sadow or he makes it all the way through. If you want feats put into context:

a)
In the scene were Luke gets attacked by Kun's spirit and Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy trilogy, Anderson states that Luke would have been able to defeat both Kun and Kyp if only one of them would have attacked him. So Luke 20 years before DN was superior to Kun's spirit. This is why Kun never attacked Luke alone - and we're talking about Kun's spirit who still fried one of Luke's students, knocked another one off without effort and force choked the entirety of Luke's students at once.

Even while I agree that a living Kun would be stronger than his spirit I fail to see why Luke - who is superior to Kun's spirit - shouldn't be able to take the living Kun with additional 20 years of training and experience.

b)
The fight against the Vong is a good example for Luke's combat abilities. He moves so fast that even trained Jedi can't follow his physical movements any longer. Even if Jaina's thoughts here are a hyperbole ("seems as if he was wielding 20 lightsabers at once", "unstoppable" wink

he must have been unbelieveable fast.
Than he just rips through 7 slayers as if they were nothing. Kyp Durron - who isn't a weakling exactly - had problems with a single slayer. Luke killed 7 without much effort after cutting his way to what seemed to be an army of Yuuzhan Vong. And his "emerald lightning instakill" (which was in fact an instakill as Faunus has corrected my own view of that scene) was used against a being that should have been immune to the said effect. That even trumps instakilling a force user - something compareable would be using the mind-trick on Jabba. It simply shouldn't work - yet it did.

c)
The DN / JA-trilogy situation I've mentioned. The combined power of Luke's student was enough to force push a star-destroyer out of the Yavin system. It took the combined power of more Jedi with better training and more experience to block one of Raynar's attacks while Luke blocked the same thing on his own.
I know that the amount of force power Raynar was wielding isn't exactly quantifiyable - but still that entire situation is grotesque if you suggest that Luke's own force power is on par or even above the combined power of dozens of his students. Especially thinking about the fact that the combined power of several individuals appears to be greater than their individual powers added (that's what it looks like when Luke's students together could force push a stardestroyer...)

d)
While Kun is one of my favourite characters - or even my favourite one (Look at my signature - he isn't there without any reason) I believe he's overrated here nowadays. Maybe because of what Janus calls the "anti Kun faction" or maybe because IKC just wants him to be uber-powerful.

Sure Kun is a lightsaber prodigy. We don't have to argue about that. On the other hand Kun didn't have too much training to perfect his skills. We know that Mace Windu is a lightsaber prodigy (anybody want to argue that ?) but even with nearly 5 decades of training he wasn't able to beat Yoda. Dooku was a master of form II - possibly using that style for 80 years. Also not able to defeat Yoda in a lightsaber duel. Now Luke in DE fought a person that gave both Yoda and Mace a pretty nice fight and Luke won. And he did that without much lightsaber vs lightsaber combat experience. Now I fail to see how 20 years filled with lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and force training added to somebody who already had a lightsaber skill that was above the ones of Obi-Wan or Anakin (or on par with Yoda, Mace, Dooku) would make him less skilled than somebody like Kun. Just because Kun has beaten Vodo who's fighting skills are great without a doubt but we can't say he's better than Yoda or Dooku or somebody else ? A little bit too much for my personal taste...

Then Kun has killed Odan using the force. Odan had attacked Kun with a great amount of his power before and was weakend by age (put it like you want but that was clearly the case). What makes you think that Kun can reproduce that action against somebody who appears to be quite more powerful compared to Odan, is in a better physical condition and has already shown the ability to block rediculous powerful force attacks ? I don't see it...
While on the other handside Luke used some instakill on a being which - theoretically - should have been completely immune against force attacks.

So what has Kun left. His "freezing" ability ? He never demonstrated that against force users. "Controlling others" - again never demonstrated against force users and I think that both things would have been pretty useful when he was confronting Ulic and Aleema, Vodo, Odan or basically anybody he met. Especially Kun who likes to toy with his enemies wouldn't have let a chance pass to demonstrate his vast superiority - or would he ?

Now the only thing we have is Kun's amulet. He even said himself that he wasn't nearly able to control the blasts coming from that amulet - and - suggesting IKC is right - he never used it to blast another force user. Why not ? At least I fail to see why Kun should be able to use it precisely against somebody moving as fast as Luke can or why it should have any great effect on a person able to block (or "turn away" wink

fire from a stardestroyer and an AT-AT as well as massive force attacks. I even fail to see how Exar would be able to use the amulet while fighting if he can only hardly control the power of the amulets blasts.

So, yes, I fail to see how Kun would be able to defeat DN Luke. Normally even NJO Luke should be able to defeat him - redicously overpowered as NJO Luke is.
And Sadow...well...I don't know. Given that Kun used quite much of Sadow's own knowledge while Sadow has never demonstrated any real combat ability I'm used to suggest that DN Luke might even have that fight (which would be damn hard anyway).
At least I fail to see how Sadow should "kick Luke's ass". That surely won't happen.

tdtd

With that the thread should end. Everything was perfectly stated, too bad I couldn't do all of that. Yes I tend to believe NJO is at least on part with Kun while DN Luke is superior. When you talk about fighting Sadow, an ancient sith, that's a tough one. From what we know, Sadow was uber powerful in the time where the sith were the most powerful, so I would say DN Luke is on par with him. We can't honestly suggest that he's better althoug a lot of his feats were. It's simply because Sadow was a DLOTS in the Golden Age, and his power is amazing. But yea DN Luke would make it to Sadow and possibly all the way.

Wesker

So we should end this thread because you're convinced of something you were convinced about before you ever so much as cracked open a DN book?

How ridiculous.

zod360

Man Borbarad's a really good debater.

Wesker

Yeah, now that he supports you. If he wasn't supporting you, he wouldn't make any sense. You don't accept anything contrary to your own views.

zod360

He doesn't agree with me on issues such as how powerful Ragnos is. I still think he is a pretty good debator. I judge how great a debater someone is not by what his opinions are but on how well he is able to make others believe in his opinions.

tdtd

Wesker, I don't accept anything but my own views? Can we say hypocrite? You and IKC are exactly the same. Always biased Kun arguments, anti Luke arguments. At least I can admin someone is better, specifically Kun. You and IKC can't.

Wesker

Because IKC provides a good argument with evidence and you and Numan just talk out of your asses, somehow we are the fanboys? Right.

zod360

Why are you bringing me into this?

tdtd

Brings good evidence? Where? How? Do you not know how to argue realistically? So if I sit there write a novel and provide scans for you that will be considered a good argument? Show me one good argument IKC has made. The only people that seem to argue as logically as possible are Nai, Illustrious(Dunno if thats the same people), and Borborad. Everybody else is either a fanboy or anti something, including me.

zod360

The people who seem to argue most logically are Borbarad and occasionally people like lightsnake or Illustrious or Faunus. I can admit that I often don't put in too much effort and occasionally am quite wrong.

Captain REX

Numan, go away!

IKC

First: Provide the quote.

Second: The quote doesn't even make sense. How does he beat both of them if he only fights one of them?

Third: This doesn't prove he was superior to Kun's spirit yet, or Luke would have eradicated him by himself.

So you fail to see why he shouldn't take a living Kun? Right.

Here's the counter: Freedon and Exar's spirits are roughly comparable in abilities. Freedon, after just 400 years of death, claimed that he was powerless. Exar was dead for four thousand years - his powers diminished exponentially. Ergo, there's no reason to assume that because Luke was supposedly superior to Kun's weakened, half-mad, 4000 year old spirit that he could take Kun at the prime of his life, even with 20 years of so-called "training and experience."

All this actually proves is that Luke is better than the people he trained - big ****ing surprise.

Even if we accept the premise that he's "unbelievably fast," how is pure speed going to win anything? I guess that's why Grievous beat the shit out of Obi-Wan Ken... oh, wait. He didn't. "But zOMG, hE wA$ f@$ter!111ONE11!11!!ELEVEN"

Looks like speed isn't the end-all, be-all.

As for the slayers... so? A bunch of people who, again, can't feel the Force. All this proves is that Luke is superior to someone he trained. We've already established this point. How are the Slayers any better than Kun's Massassi, whom he dominated? You realize that one demonstrated the capability to floor angry Jedi with bare hands?

As for the "emerald lightning," even if it worked against a being who can't feel the Force, how is it more impressive than an attack against a being who can feel the Force and can resist the attack with the Force? Oh wait, that's your subjective, unsupported opinion. Huh.

So I guess if Yoda popped out of Luke's ass and dropped an X-Wing on a Vong with the Force, you'd claim it to be more impressive than, say, killing Sidious with Force Lightning. Good to know.

Good job, you can leave important bits of information out!

Yes, they force pushed a star destroyer out of orbit. Very impressive if that's all you tell us about the event. What you're leaving out is that they were on Yavin IV and using the temples which were designed for the purpose of "focusing intense (dark side) energies to this place," as the TOTJ narrator describes it.

I think that sufficiently destroys your "zomg, they couldn't block Raynar!" point.

As for quantifying, I think the "new evidence" I brought to light (and you kept hidden) destroys that too.

It's Star Wars According to Nai again!

Well, let me ask you again: Got any evidence that Kun "didn't have too much training to perfect his skills," or are you making things up again?

Yes, Mace and Dooku couldn't beat Yoda, so we presume. Neither could Sidious, and Mace put Sidious on his ass.

To quote myself regarding the DE Luke vs. DE Sidious fight:

So, looks like Luke's saber skills were not on par with either Mace or Yoda's even at the time of DE. Why? Because Sidious sucked ass. He obviously wasn't doing much practicing while he was running the Empire, which is why his hand was hewn off by a farmboy who has had no saber training with living, breathing instructors who sparred with him.

On the other hand you have Kun, who beat the shit out of Vodo, a 600 year old Jedi master who would wipe his ass with Yoda. Kun, who killed him with comical ease. Kun, who invented his own style and unique weapon.

Yeah. Lightsaber skills - Advantage, Kun.

I'm going to post my answer from the other thread, as you're making the same bullshit unsupported assumptions:

There's no evidence for him being weakened by age:

See the above for my response to your emerald lightning nonsense.

IKC

Yes Nai, absence of proof is proof of absence. Great debating skill!

Nevermind that Kun controlled an insane amount of multiracial beings. Oh no, absence of proof is proof of absence, that means he can't do it to a Force user because he's never tried!

Tell me, Nai, how useful would it have been to him when he curbstomped everyone he met face-to-face during the Sith War, anyway? So because he doesn't toy with his Force-sensitive enemies by controlling them, that means he can't? Great debating skill.

To quote myself, again:

By the way, Luke never turned away turbolasers. Raynar did.

Actually, I fail to see how any known incarnation of Luke could come close to even hurting Kun.

Yeah, nevermind that it was his vast Sith knowledge that mostly made Kun into the uber Force user he became.

Either of them would curbstomp DN Luke. All that matters is which gets to him first.

Fishy

He never froze a force user when it was very useful, not once. So why should we assume he could? A bunch of creatures that weren't force users is very different. So unless he shows the ability which he never once does its proper to assume that he couldn't freeze force users.

Borbarad

Originally posted by IKC
First: Provide the quote.

You do notice that English isn't my mothertongue and so I don't own the orginal books with makes it quite hard to provide some actual quote - don't you ?

Maybe I didn't express myself properly. It says that Luke could have defeated Kyp or Kun's spirit but both combined were too much for him.

No wait. Just because the inventor of Kun says that Luke is superior to Kun's spirit that doesn't prove him to be. And you did realize that Kun never directly confronted Luke until he and Kyp ripped Luke's spirit from his body ? So Luke didn't have the chance to erradicate Kun.

They are ? Have we seen Nadd force choking 8 force users at once ? Have we seen Nadd destroying objects in the physical world ? Have we seen Nadd seperating the spirits of Jedi from their body ? Have we seen Nadd knocking of force users without effort ? Have we seen Nadd lifting a spaceship out of the gravitational pressure of a gas giant ?
I think there is a small difference between just dying or unleash your own spirit from a body in a ritual powered with the lifeforce of hundrets or thousands of beings...

Where was Grievous faster than Obi-Wan ? Obviously he didn't manage to slice Obi-Wan into pieces while wielding 4 lightsabers - did he ? And Luke was moving so fast that trained Jedi couldn't follow his physical movements any longer - hard to fight somebody when you can't see his movements...don't you think so ?

You realize that one YV slayer took dozens of strikes from a lightsaber by Kyp Durron and still defeated him ? You do notice that a single YV kicked the asses of a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds ? You do notice that slayers are wearing lightsaber resistant weapons and armor ? You do notice that Luke went through an army of YV's before ripping the slayers ? You do notice that said YVs are resistant to the force ?

But of course those YV slayers aren't any better than Kun's Massassi...

Oh wait. YV's are immune to force attacks. Can it be that complete immunity is a little bit better than the ability to resist attacks to a certain level or block them ? Yes ? So can it be that using an instakill against a being which should be immune to said effect appears greater than using an attack on a weakened Jedi Master that leads to that Jedi Masters death finally ?

Wooohooo....It's new to me that the Luke's students are now dark siders equipped with the knowledge to use the tempels built by Kun. If that destroys anything than it only destroys the image of Kun's spirit being powerful since he just used the power of the tempels, right ?
And ups....so Luke was more powerful than the spirit of Exar Kun when Kun was using that uber powerful focus tempels ? Haha.

Yeah. Of course Kun is so uber-genious that he can trump decades of training in a single year. This is logic according to IKC.

May I remind you that Yoda in ROTS told Obi-Wan that he isn't powerful enough to deal with the Emperor. May I remind you that Sidious was superior to Maul in terms of lightsaber duels who isn't the lazy ass exactly. And may I remind you that DE Sidious has a younger body and more force control than his ROTS self ?

That just makes DE Luke superior to the likes of Obi-Wan and Maul in terms of fighting skills but nevermind - just an untrained farmboy.

Oh. So because your assumption that Vodo could wipe his ass with Yoda that begs for proof, Kun is the lightsaber god. Yeah...I love it how a lightsaber prodigy who invented his own style (Mace) wasn't able to beat Yoda with 5 decades of training - but another lightsaber prodigy could wipe his ass with Vodo after a few years of training at max. Yeah. I totally see that Vodo must be > Yoda here.
No...I don't...

Yeah....nevermind that Kun never controlled anybody except the Chancellor and he needed to use his amulet for this as far as we know lets just go and assume that he just can do everything he wants before he falls off the fanboy pedestial we but him on. Great debating skill, IKC !

Luke turned away fire from an AT-AT which we have seen able to destroying complete buildings in ESB. And of course - because Luke has proven himself to be superior to Raynar he can't reproduce that feat. Nice use of logic there, IKC...

And I love how you simply ignore the question how you gonna hit somebody that can move faster than blaster beams with a beam from another weapon. Especially when said person can't hardly control that weapon himself as he himself said. But nevermind...

tdtd

Thanks for shutting up Borborad again IKC, your ability to argue on this matter is superior to mine. IKC, i'm tired of your biased crap. Your logic was completely thrown out the window when the odds were against Kun, so now you exaggerate his feats, downplay Luke's ignore quotes, etc... Nice debating skills champ.

zephiel7

I say Exar Kun and DN Luke KO each other...

EDIT: That guy two posts ahead of me just PWNT IKC and Kun at once. I am beginning to feel DN Luke will make it past Kun alive.

tdtd

Exar Kun and NJO Luke would KO each other, DN Luke is superior to Kun. LOTF Luke will be superior to Artoo, hopefully.

zephiel7

Well tdtd, I haven't really read the DN series, all my knowledge about it really comes from other posters and Databank.

tdtd

Yea same here I have the books but I can't read them til I read the entire NJO series, but I do get quotes and accomplishments through the internet. In NJO they sorta make him look like a Force God, but in DN they make every attempt to do so. He's still superior to Kun.

Darth_Glentract

tdtd, it's just annoying when you jump on the back of someone like Nai and pretend that you actually helped in proving someone wrong.

Exar Kun and NJO Luke would KO each other, DN Luke is superior to Kun. LOTF Luke will be superior to Artoo, hopefully.

And this is total BS. Where is your proof for this? If you posted it elsewhere, repost it here.

Illustrious

Originally posted by tdtd
Exar Kun and NJO Luke would KO each other, DN Luke is superior to Kun. LOTF Luke will be superior to Artoo, hopefully.

It's impossible to be superior to Artoo.

Wesker

Originally posted by Illustrious
It's impossible to be superior to Artoo.

Yeah, but a sustained image of nekkid Padme for a whole ten seconds could make him temporarily weak enough to be defeated by like... every force user who ever existed pooling their powers and eating Kaiburr crystals.

Illustrious

Originally posted by Wesker
Yeah, but a sustained image of nekkid Padme for a whole ten seconds could make him temporarily weak enough to be defeated by like... every force user who ever existed pooling their powers and eating Kaiburr crystals.

But only mighty Artoo can project such a sustained image, so it's moot.

Wesker

Yeah, true.

tdtd

I agree Artoo is a force god. I also understand that none of you have been able to effectively argue that Kun>Luke and vice versa. I agree with Illustrious' take that we can't very well tell who would win in a 1 on 1 bout. I also laugh at IKC's fanboyism, and you guys can deny it all you want, but I'm stating what you're all thinking.

Wesker

You're an antagonistic troll, tdtd. I'm done even responding to you.

tdtd

Originally posted by Wesker
You're an antagonistic troll, tdtd. I'm done even responding to you.

^ I can tell Kun fanboy

IKC

Fishy:

What situation is this that it would have been "very useful" for Kun to control a Force user? Oh, wait, it's "none?" Because Kun was already able to WTFpwn everyone of his time already? I thought so.

So, absence of proof is not proof of absence. I doubt very much that controlling a single Force user is incredibly harder than controlling the entire Senate.

Nai:

And I do own the original books, and English is my first language. I actually read the relevant sections of Dark Apprentice and Champions of the Force last night. I'll go into this after quoting:

I read the relevant section, and it says nothing of the sort. It doesn't even read that Luke could have defeated Kyp by himself, much less Kun. It only reads that he was overwhelmed by their combined strength.

Good job making things up again.

Oh, so you can literally make up a quote, reference it indirectly, and claim it as canon?

Okay. George Lucas said that Exar Kun pwns all. QED.

So Kun never directly confronted Luke before then? Is that why Kun appeared as Luke's father in one of Luke's dreams? Oh, I guess I must not have read that.

Nice job knowing what you're talking about, Nai.

We saw Nadd's spirit instakill King Ommin, who was able to wtfpwn Arca Jeth. We saw him cause an avalanche which crushed Exar Kun's bones. We saw him knock Vodo Baas to the ground. We saw him then heal Exar Kun's body with the Dark Side.

I'd say their abilities are roughly comparable. Nice job knowing what you're talking about.

Except that there's no visible difference in their capabilities other than Nadd was apparently free to roam the galaxy.

Where was he faster than Obi-Wan? Mostly when he was spinning his lightsabers like buzzsaws at him.

Yes, Jedi trained by Luke couldn't follow his movements with their eyes. That means Force users who are far superior to them wouldn't be able to, either?

And Luke didn't seem to have much trouble deflecting lasers after getting the hang of not being able to see them. Your point collapses.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

And Kyp Durron is any good in the grand scheme of things? I'd rather face a Vong than a Dark-Side-powered Massassi warrior who was able to floor Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor whatsoever.

And Vong are not immune to physical manifestations of the Force: dropping a rock on its head will still hurt, for example. Shooting lightning at it will still fry it.

So they exist outside the Force - so does a rock. A rock certainly is not alive - it has no midichlorians. By your logic, no Jedi should be able to use the Force on a rock in any capacity. However, we see that they can.

Whenever the Vong suddenly become attuned to the Dark Side and start flooring pissed-off Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor, I'll rate them as good as the Massassi.

Again:

Secondly, your assertion that Odan was weakened is an unsupported assertion. The fact that you continue to repeat it shows a strong level of bias.

So yes, instakilling a 1000-year-old Jedi Master who at least should have a means to resist the attack trumps instakilling what amounts to a marauding primitive who has no hope of using the Force to resist the attack.

Except there's no proof that the energy need be Dark Side. If anything, the artifacts of the Sith work off the energy and nature of the users; inanimate objects are not and cannot be inherently light or dark side, else they'd be Force users in their own right.

And how does it destroy Kun's image when it can be argued that everyone else was using the temples as well? Doesn't seem like he has much of an advantage there, hm? Nice double standards, Nai.

Except you're basing that off a "quote" which you've never provided and referenced only indirectly. Nice job making things up.

That and you're also basing it off the double standard that only Kun can use the temples.

So what is this "single year" and "short amount of time" you keep making up? Got any evidence for Kun's training only lasting that long, or are you just making things up again?

And may I remind you that in DE he still got his ass kicked by a farmboy who hadn't even heard of the weapon ten years earlier? May I remind you that he got his ass kicked by a farmboy who only a couple of years before was still using said weapon like a baseball bat?

Seems like there was some skill deterioration, no? Oh, but that concept could never enter in to Nai's head - Luke has to be better than people who spent their lives training with the weapon!

Assumption? No, it's rather well established logic.

You weren't here for this, I guess.

That and you're again inserting your unsupported assumption that Exar Kun had only a few years of training... show us the evidence, or you're just making things up. Par for the course with you, it seems.

IKC

Except that Kun controlled the entire Senate already:

And there's no evidence that he "needed" to use his amulet for jack shit other than shooting those nasty beams. "Zomg, the amulet glowed, though!" Yeah, so did Odan-Urr. He need to use a Sith amulet, now?

Good job Nai, you're falling apart.

Except that turbolaser fire is exponentially more powerful than what an AT-AT could put out, so nice assumption. I'm sure if Luke tried to turn away turbolaser fire he could, but with what difficulty?

How would this help him turn away the amulet blasts Exar Kun can fire? We know that since they're Force-based they operate under different principles than turbolasers already. As well, they are beams of energy rather than bursts, meaning they're constant. There's little to no reason to just automatically assume that Luke's magically immune to them.

Right, because Kun himself can't move faster than a blaster bolt because we have a little double-standard problem, right?

As for the "can't hardly control" bullshit:

Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?

This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have any respect for debating conventions, you'd know it.

Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?

And Luke can use emerald lightning? Okay.

And a look at his very hand shows that there was NO DAMAGE whatsoever.

And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.

So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.

Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.

The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."

In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.

Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet!

Illustriapwned.

So, beams as big as a room? Check.

Two amulets to shoot them from? Check.

No evidence of anyone but an Ancient Sith possibly having a defense against them? Check.

Looks like Luke dies.

tdtd

No evidence of Kun blocking emerald lightning. Your faulty argument has to work for everybody, not only Kun. You're right, just because Kun didn't control the senate doesn't mean he can't. Just because Luke was seen using lightning on a Vong, doesn't mean he can use it on a force user. Way to open up 50 more arguments due to your biased opinions, and that's all they are. Those two are on par at the very least for Luke.

w00t2112

Kun and Luke were both exceptional force users and lightsaber combatants, really, tdtd is right here, there is no evidence for either side, saying that the emerald lightning and the amulet blasts can kill force users instantly, IKC, somehow you should look on both sides and not only one.

Akechi Misuhide

God... IKC your one of the biggest Kun fanboys I've seen. Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS. While there is a chance that Kun could win you refuse to admit that Luke could win as well.

Also you get pissed the moment someone disagrees with you, insults seem to be your biggest weapon.

Fishy

I call bullshit...

The second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, except for them looking the same you have no prove that they are the same. Unless you can prove that they aren't. So he only has one amulet.

And explain then, he said he could barely control it. THe narrator says that it indeed almost destroyed him. And he only ever used it against Nadd and the Sith beasts, he was far to weak on his own to beat those two that much is clear, after that he never once used it again. Why? Because he didn't need too, or because he couldn't? I'm guessing he couldn't, he was afraid that he would die that it would destroy him.

Kun never uses the amulet again there is a reason for that, and if you never use it you won't get a better control over it. Its like saying somebody who studied the Dark Side for 50 years will become bettter with a lightsaber even though he never touched it.

And where the hell were these beams the size of a room? Making things up now?

IKC

Oh, okay. Absence of proof is proof of absence, and unless I can prove a negative then it's final?

You're in top form now, Fishy; two logical fallacies in two sentences!

So he only has one amulet... because you want it that way? Sorry. This is not Star Wars According to Fishy. His amulets are on his person and therefore permissible.

I guess I have to quote Illustrious, again, because you don't seem to have read what he posted:

Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?

This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have any respect for debating conventions, you'd know it.

Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?

And Luke can use emerald lightning? Okay.

And a look at his very hand shows that there was NO DAMAGE whatsoever.

And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.

So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.

Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.

The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."

In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.

Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet!

Well that would depend on how big the room is, but observe:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Note how the beams increase in size as they move away from his hands, especially in the second scan. They're already enormous in what is shown in the scans. I'd say those are sufficiently big to call them room-sized.

Nice try.

Wesker

Originally posted by Akechi Misuhide
God... IKC your one of the biggest Kun fanboys I've seen. Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS. While there is a chance that Kun could win you refuse to admit that Luke could win as well.

Also you get pissed the moment someone disagrees with you, insults seem to be your biggest weapon.

Who put the bug up your ass, Veneficus? You just bust the **** out of nowhere like Mister Kool-Aid and proclaim IKC a fanboy?

Let me point out the hypocrisy of your situation:

- You don't even debate regularly on these forums, yet you read them all the time. And then you ***** about people getting "upset" over "fiction" and yet look at your above post.

- You come out of left field and call IKC a fanboy yet he's provided better logical arguments and provided more proof than anyone else. I hate to break this to you (And everyone else), but using logic and having proof is exactly the opposite of a fanboy.

- I love the statement "Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS." It doesn't take a debating champion to point out your clear and present contradiction in this sentence. In one breath you laud IKC for having a wealth of proof (Which no one else provides) and then you say his belief is unfounded BS! This is like me giving a thesis on why Vaapad is good against dark sided enemies and you say "lol nice info but thats all unfounded BS". Please. Unless you can discredit him with an argument, stfu.

- And lastly, why do you assume that everyone's all "pissed off" over this stuff? You really think we all log off and pace the floors and swear because "OMfg teh internet noobd doesnt agre wit me"? Please. The only one here having a stroke is you, and you need to lighten the **** up or shut the **** up, one or the other. The only thing you're doing is trolling and bashing IKC for having perhaps the best elaborated views on this forum while bringing nothing to the table yourself. Anyone can barge into a discussion and insult people. I could barge into a corporate meeting for Microsoft an start calling Bill Gates a greedy mother****er, but that doesn't mean I have a leg to stand on.

tdtd

Originally posted by w00t2112
Kun and Luke were both exceptional force users and lightsaber combatants, really, tdtd is right here, there is no evidence for either side, saying that the emerald lightning and the amulet blasts can kill force users instantly, IKC, somehow you should look on both sides and not only one.

I'll stop insulting IKC now but when you're a fanboy you only see 1 side of things. And Wesker, yea he called IKC a fanboy.. What's that? You're surprised? I told you I just say what people are thinking, and if IKC is the biggest Kun fanboy then you have the honor of holding second place with your crap. I agree has made SOME ok arguments but he has made zero arguments concerning Kun's superiority over DN Luke. If you call writing a novel with scans, listing feats, bullshitting and exaggerating Kun's power a logical argument, then I suggest you visit dictionary.com. IKC's arguments about Kun's power have been some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read. Again I won't deny that I troll around because 99% of the time I don't care what you, and especially IKC, who gets worked up easily, think about me, but I don't make myself look like a fool with fanboyish arguments, and then call them logical.

Wesker: I hate to break this to you (And everyone else), but using logic and having proof is exactly the opposite of a fanboy

^Except as IKC's second in command you fail to understand the concept of logic. If you still don't understand, search for the Ragnos vs. Kun thread..

Fishy

IKC either start arguing what I said or stop posting.

About the amulet, the second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, and you often claim it doesn't do anything ever (like when we see it controlling the chancellor you says thats Kun) so we have no idea on what it does, or how it does anything. There is no reason to assume it does the same thing as the other amulet does. Just because something looks the same doesn't mean it is the same.

And it would depend on how big the room is... My fist is as big as a room if its a mouse room. Seriously... The beam does grow bigger though, but I see no reason to assume it would just keep on growing if it doesn'thit anything, if it did he could have fired it at the Jedi above Yavin IV and completely destroy them and their fleet of ships with one single blast.

IKC

"Fishy, read what I post or stop posting."

Asking your opponent to leave is a sign of defeat on your part.

It doesn't control the Chancellor. It is an inanimate object. It seems to be based on another inanimate object with known properties. Ergo, it is logical to assume that, unless evidence shows otherwise, they have the same properties.

Good job taking what I said and stretching it out of reason. Within reason, that beam is room sized and Luke will be damned hard pressed to dodge one of them, much less two, fired by an experienced Force user like Kun.

And there is reason to assume that such an attack (shooting the orbiting Jedi) would be ineffective:

http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/3232/alljedi45zv.th.jpg

Obviously Kun believes any attack he could launch would fail. Rightly so, he's up against all the Jedi in the galaxy. Beside the fact that we don't know the effective range of the beams (the most we see is them clearing the entire temple room) even if they did expand, the fleet covered most of the atmosphere. He'd be an instant target for laser cannons, for instance.

Borbarad

Originally posted by IKC
And I do own the original books, and English is my first language. I actually read the relevant sections of Dark Apprentice and Champions of the Force last night. I'll go into this after quoting:

I read the relevant section, and it says nothing of the sort. It doesn't even read that Luke could have defeated Kyp by himself, much less Kun. It only reads that he was overwhelmed by their combined strength.

Good job making things up again.

Good job thinking that I won't be able to get myself the original text. In the end of chapter 32 of Dark Apprentice (when Luke gets attacked) it says (in both the German and English version) that Luke wanted to strike back and what stopped him was that (when he already was attacked by Kyp) Kun's spirit started attacking him too.

So ups. As it seem Luke was still superior to Kyp and since Kun's spirit never tried to attack Luke (he tried to seduce him, yes, but he never tried to attack him) when we know that he wanted Luke dead it seems as Kun's spirit on his own was also inferior compared to Luke.

And yes...it says that Kun's and Kyp's combined strength was too much for Luke when anything we have leads to the suggestion that Luke was infact superior to both of them. But nevermind IKC...

Nice job interpreting scenarios in favor for Kun. Kun tried to seduce Luke to join him but he never tried to attack Luke before Luke's spirit was seperated from his body when we know that he - in fact - wanted Luke dead. Or is "trying to seduce somebody" now called "confrontation" or "attack" ?

Yeeeha. Nice job not knowing what you are talking about. So Nadd killed Ommin - after Ulic cut down Ommin's exosceleton of course which turned Ommin into a glibberish and helpless ball of meat, who lay on the ground having no bones screaming for Nadd's support - as can be seen here:

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_18_21.jpg

Ommin "Nadd protect me !"
And Nadd's reaction (after giving Satal and Aleema some little gifts):
http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_18_23.jpg

Then he crushed Exar's bones at a point where Exar wasn't able to use the force. Great deal. Force heal was Luke in a state of unconciousness in the Calista trilogy. Also great deal. And Nadd floored Vodo ? Yeah right:

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_38_15.jpg

He did it while Vodo was using some nice part of his power trying to protect or heal Exar. Nice job giving a Jedi who is focused on an entire different thing an attack which just floors the Jedi. What a display of power.

Just that Nadd never did anything on par with Exar's spirit later. But nevermind...

Lmao. No apparently Kyp Durron isn't any good in the grand scheme of things. He's just the best non-Skywalker ever appearing in the EU but that of course means nothing. He has received knowledge from Exar Kun directly (but I guess we simply ignore that) and he has beaten everybody else in lightsaber duels (including Kyle Katarn who was not exactly trained by Luke) as far as I remember. But let us just ignore that and assume he's a weakling anyway.

Then suddenly "force lightning" is a physical manifestation - can you please give me the situation where it was used to destroy dead objects ? It didn't seem to have much effect on the ceiling when Dooku had to turn his own lightning away, Yoda had turned back on him. In fact the Vong were immune to force lightning as people tried to use it on them and failed - but we also can just ignore that because that would not be in favor of IKC, right ?

Whenever a Massassi is shown to take several hits from a lightsaber and then beat the shit out of a Jedi and moves fast enough to rip apart a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds I will rate them as good as YV's. What matters is the thread a being is to a Jedi - by your logic Boba Fett with all of his weapons is less dangerous than a single Massassi because Fett can't floor Jedi without his weapons.

Of course...my assertion that Odan was weakened is unsupported when we see him focusing on a powerful attack before getting pwned (which apparently didn't give him much time to focus on defence at the same point) and he just told Nomi that he defeated Ancient Sith in his early days when he's just explaining his failure with "I'm old...I can't stop it ".

Oh great. Because we have nothing to even suggest that Luke's students did use the temple built by a Sith Lord they surely must have done that when they didn't know anything about the temples or their function. Yap...sure. And inanimate objects cannot be inherently light or Dark Side ? I wonder if you just did miss Naga Sadow's blade, Tulak Hord's mask and Kun's own amulets which could only be used by Dark Siders (especially Kun's amulet is cleary powered by hate).

Oh...apparently he was the only being on the entire planet who knew about the power of the temples and the way they work - in contrary to Luke and his students. But let us again just ignore that little fact...

Since Luke's students and Luke himself are never been shown to use the temples and Kun is the only person on the planet who did knew about the temples it's quite save to assume that Kun is the only being who did use them.

Because we know that Jedi in that era weren't trained for a long amount of time as we see. And when Kun uses Vodo's holocron Vodo even tells him that he needs "a few years of training" before being ready for the hidden knowledge stored within it ? So apparently he didn't have much training (in terms of "time" wink

before the events in DLotS happen, right - and we know that he had just a year between his submission to the Dark Side and his defeat by the Jedi above Yavin 4. Maybe reading the sources would be a good idea ?

LOL. This is great. So Kun with some years of training can be better than people who used a weapon for 6 centuries - but Luke can't be above somebody who trained with that weapon for a few decades. Allright. We know that Sidious was superior to add least Maul but of course he's weaker in DE - having a younger body and more control over the force, right ? I guess the concept of "logic" could never enter your head when Kun is involved, IKC...

Borbarad

No, it's just your personal opinion. So tell me how somebody who was curpstombed by Exar is widely above somebody who has 300 years more training, can dodge attacks from three lightsaber wielding opponents at once (effortless) and couldn't get defeated by a lightsaber prodigy with his own style and 5 decades of training and a Sith lord using the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber fighting" for 8 decades. I'm curious.
Just because ROTS Sidious was lucky against him or the KotoR era Jedi appear to be stronger than the PT era ones in general ? Ah yeah...nice "proof" there.

No he didn't. If you just would understand the concept of freezing persons who - as the narrator puts it - were forced to watch and not to react you would see that Kun did just freeze them but did not control them. The entire meaning of frozen is that the didn't move when you assume that Kun made them move their heads to focus on his actions which is - oh...what an incidence - never stated in the comic.

We see that he moved to the Chancellor and used his amulet but he didn't use it of course because IKC didn't want him to use it. And of course he controlled everybody in the senate - which was why the Chancellor tried to attack him, right ? And of course they just show Kun using his amulet because...yeah...why they do it when he didn't need it at all ? So while I have something to suggest that Kun had to use his amulet you have nothing to suggest something different. Looks like "evidence" is > "IKC's personal interpretation"...

Oh wait. Just before you have told me that the force can be seen as "physical force" but now you tell me that you can't compare the power of a blast from Kun's amulet to the power of a turbolaser because a turbolaser seems to be more powerful and that would be quite destructive for your entire argument when you suggest that Luke would be able to turn away turbolaser fire ? So suddenly the force can't be compared to physical powers any longer ? And you accuse me of using double-standarts. Bwahahaha....

Again...just for you. I was asking how he would make the blasts from the amulets fast enough to hit somebody who is moving faster than the beams. He just can't. And for the "he can't hardly control it" stuff. He did never use that amulet again even in situations where he clearly wanted some people to die (Ulic when he first confronted him) he didn't bother to blast them away but instead used his lightsaber or other force powers. Why ?
And I fail to see why his ability to control the power of the amulet should increase when he doesn't bother to use it. For the other amulet: Why would Kun construct another amulet that does exactly the same like the first when he didn't even use the first any longer ? I don't see any logic behind that.

And even when we just suggest that he can infact control the amulet at the hight of his power and if he can do the same thing with the other amulet the beams are still to slow to hit a force user trying to dodge them and we have no proof that Luke wouldn't be able to turn them away.
And if Raynar - who is inferior to Luke - can turn away the turbolaser fire from an entire Stardestroyer I don't see why Luke should have problems doing the same with 2 beams which seem to put out less energy than a turbolaser shot (as we can see when Kun "blasts" the temple wall while a SD's turbolaser is able to vaporize complete asteroids).