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All are armed with their lightsabers and wheelchairs. Setting is the retirement home.

*Dooku enters*

Jolee: I smell bad karma.

Dooku: Prepare to die, Jedi!

Ben: What did you're mother tell you about respecting your elders!

Dooku: I'm older than you.

Jinn: And me.

Jolee: And me.

*Dooku proceeds to sabre-rape the trio*

Dooku would not be able to take the trio. They are all acpable masters, especially Bindo and Kenobi.

First of all, Dooku would use Kenobis remains to polish his shoes.

Second of all, Dooku taught Qui Gon and surely can predict most of his battle plans and can probably destroy him seeing as he is older and was once his Master.


All that would be left would be him and Jolee. And Dooku would kick the shit out of Jolee.

I completely disagree. Jolee Bindo seems to be a very capable jedi master and one of the best during a martial period. Ben Kenobi was no pushover, and while the OT films do not make him look anything special, what do you think he was doing in all of those years on Tatooine. Qui Gon and Kenobi would be able to work well against Dooku and Bindo, who likely has superior force powers would be able to use the force to great effect.

Bindo did nothing for twenty years, neither did Kenobi. All of these three will get destroyed by Dooku.

Originally posted by zod360
I completely disagree. Jolee Bindo seems to be a very capable jedi master and one of the best during a martial period. Ben Kenobi was no pushover, and while the OT films do not make him look anything special, what do you think he was doing in all of those years on Tatooine. Qui Gon and Kenobi would be able to work well against Dooku and Bindo, who likely has superior force powers would be able to use the force to great effect.


Superior force powers? Jolee never showed having any tendancy of having "superior force powers".


And Ben would be a pushover. Did you see Ben getting worked by Dooku in AOTC and ROTS?

He was hiding all those years on Tatooine. Both Qui Gon and Kenobi would get curbstomped by Dooku.

Bindo was still a lot more experienced then Dooku and lived during a martial period. He fought in both Kun's sith war and the jedi civil war. He also clearly achieved much (the disciple in KOTOR2 compares some of his achievements to those of Vodo-Sios Bass). And Kenobi did not do nothing in twenty years. He likely trained with the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn and his force potential very likely improved by a great deal.

But he was never more than an average Jedi until Revan found him. After that, he was all popular for "guiding" Revan.

Originally posted by zod360
Bindo was still a lot more experienced then Dooku and lived during a martial period. He fought in both Kun's sith war and the jedi civil war. He also clearly achieved much (the disciple in KOTOR2 compares some of his achievements to those of Vodo-Sios Bass). And Kenobi did not do nothing in twenty years. He likely trained with the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn and his force potential very likely improved by a great deal.

He was hiding from Vader and the Emperor and the whole GE. If he revealed himself by traning people could either see him or he could get traced or something. Kenobi knew what happened to other jedi's.

He would have likely been able to train in secret, without revealing to others that he was a jedi.

Originally posted by Gamblor
But he was never more than an average Jedi until Revan found him. After that, he was all popular for "guiding" Revan.

As I said before, the disciple considers the knowledge of his adventures some of the most valuable jedi artifacts that there were.

Knowledge is all nice, but can it be used against Dooku? It wasnt Ancient Sith offensive knoweldge

And how do we know Visas isnt biased on the subject?

Originally posted by zod360
He would have likely been able to train in secret, without revealing to others that he was a jedi.

And what have you got based on this? Nothing.
We saw he sucked in the movie, it is asmuch likley that he didn't practise since he woulden't need his skills much, and just watched over Luke to practise him one day. To blame technology is not a proof.

My point was that he must have achieved quite a lot if knowledge of his adventures was regarded as valuable as the teachings of Vodo Siosk-Bass.

Originally posted by kamikz
And what have you got based on this? Nothing.
We saw he sucked in the movie, it is asmuch likley that he didn't practise since he woulden't need his skills much, and just watched over Luke to practise him one day. To blame technology is not a proof.

Well he clearly had time to learn the secret of becoming a spirit from Qui Gon, so why would he not be able to simply meditate and become more powerful in the force that way.

yeah but he'd probably be a bit out of shape with a saber

Hardly...

Jolee Bindo is a story teller, but what the disciple says about him makes no sense. Jolee did a few things during the Krath wars and during the Sith War and during some other troubling times in the history, but he was never a great warrior or a leader, he in fact was still a Padawan during Kotor. Jolee Bindo is never talked about he isn't remembered he's an old foolish guy living in the Shadow lands of Kashyyyk. Nothing more, how the disciple even knows about him is beyond me.

Really the real explanation is of course Kotor II Devs wanted to say something about Jolee because they liked him. A ingame explanation is however not present. Whatever the case is, Jolee Bindo is a huge unkown. Surviving in the Shadowlands for 20 years is impressive, but he is not a godly Jedi and he isn't from what we know on the same level as Dooku, so he like ANH Obi and QGJ would die.

erm, I was referring to Kenobi.

That wasn't meant for you, I was takling to Numan or whatever the hell he calls himself now... Should have quoted his post, but its to late to edit it now.

edit: nvm

This is how the fight would go.

Dooku: *Walks into the retirement home and spots the Jedi*
Ben: You may have beaten me last time, but-
Dooku: *Pushes Ben out the window before he could finish his sentence*
Qui-Gonn: Master, please!
Dooku: You always were a sucky student. *Slashes up*
Jolee: You can't beat me. I'm black.
Dooku: Good point. But the Dark Side is blacker than you could ever be! *Slashes up*

And STOP SAYING "z0mg, ben got so much stronger!!!!!!!111"

He didn't. First of all, he'd have absolutely no reason to continue training. It'd be a waste of his time. Perhaps Sidious may have trained, but definetly not Ben.

Old Ben sucked because ANH was made in 77'

Guaranteed if Lucas made that film now he would be doing a "Dooku" all the thru the Vader fight on the DS!! Dooku dies!!!

IMO Ben got worse with a saber and far better with the force...

Dooku still wastes him 1v1 though.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Old Ben sucked because ANH was made in 77'

Stop saying that retarded phrase! What, do you think people were more acrobatic and stronger in 2005? No.

It only makes sense that Ben was weak in ANH.

Dooku handles this quite well.

Originally posted by Arker
Stop saying that retarded phrase! What, do you think people were more acrobatic and stronger in 2005? No.

It only makes sense that Ben was weak in ANH.

calm down bud its only my opinion

Thing is, it's not a good argument-worthy opinion.

Originally posted by zod360
Bindo was still a lot more experienced then Dooku and lived during a martial period. He fought in both Kun's sith war and the jedi civil war. He also clearly achieved much (the disciple in KOTOR2 compares some of his achievements to those of Vodo-Sios Bass). And Kenobi did not do nothing in twenty years. He likely trained with the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn and his force potential very likely improved by a great deal.

He fought in Kun's war? I don't think so. He never said he did. He also had twenty years off in a damn tree hut.

How do you know he trained with Qui Gon and just didn't talk to him? This is all unfounded bullshit that you can't back up.


Considering Jolee had Twenty years off, I'm sure he's quite inexperienced compared to Dooku.

You act like Dooku sat around and did nothing. He fought his fair share as well. Hell, he was esteemed as one of the greatest Duelists of his time. Was Jolee? Didn't think so.

so ur saying if AOTC was made in 77 dooku and Yoda showdown would be good???

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
so ur saying if AOTC was made in 77 dooku and Yoda showdown would be good???

What the . . . ?

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
so ur saying if AOTC was made in 77 dooku and Yoda showdown would be good???

...

Yeah, erm, no.

I would say that Bindo likely takes this on his own. He lived in a martial period and fought in two wars. He became a jedi master and helped Revan on his quest. His adventures were considered by the disciple (a historian) as a valuable piece of history comparable to Bass' teachings, so it is likely that he achieved much. I will admit that I am a bit of a Bindo fanboy, but it is not like what I have said is unfounded. Jinn and Ben Kenobi as a team were probably almost as good as the ROTS Anakin and Kenobi team, so it is not like Dooku would be able to annihilate them in 2 seconds like people have been saying. Adding Bindo and it's say goodbye to Dooku.

Originally posted by zod360
Actually he tells Revan about it. His wife was seduced by Kun's teachings and turned against Bindo and the jedi. And even though he hibernated in the shadowlands for quite a long time, he then helpd Revan on his quest and fought in the jedi civil war. And we know that Jinn trained Kenobi the art of becoming a force ghost, so why wouldn't he have trained him in the force.

As you can see, I have backed up everything I have said.

No actually you haven't, because you just made an assumption that QGJ trained Kenobi there is no evidence for that, especially when you consider that Obi Wan was already more powerful then QGJ and force ghosts can't stay around forever, QGJ probably didn't have forever to train Obi Wan.

Jolee also fought in the war, but he was still a Padawan he was nothing special in that war for as far as we know... He isn't important and the fighting he did in that war sure as hell doesn't put him above Dooku.



Before the Jedi Civil War nobody even knew about Jolee he was a hermit, he went into hiding. He wasn't a great Jedi Knight the Jedi Order didn't look for him. How the disciple knew about him is beyond me, but he probably learned something about Jolee travelling with Revan and decided he was important. But being a Jedi that has seen and travelled a lot and being a great Jedi are two completely different things.

QGJ and Obi Wan wouldn't work well together anymore. Its been 10 years since Obi Wan last fought with QGJ and he started learning a different style.

It is not unfounded as I have a reason for saying what I have said. Just because I do not have complete 100% proof, it doesn't mean that it is unfounded. It is definite that Jinn trained Obi Won Kenobi in the art of force spirits, so it is extremely plausible that he trained him in other ways too. Do you really think that Kenobi just sat down doing nothing in those twenty years?

Originally posted by zod360
Actually he tells Revan about it. His wife was seduced by Kun's teachings and turned against Bindo and the jedi. And even though he hibernated in the shadowlands for quite a long time, he then helpd Revan on his quest and fought in the jedi civil war. And we know that Jinn trained Kenobi the art of becoming a force ghost, so why wouldn't he have trained him in the force.

As you can see, I have backed up everything I have said.


As I can see, what you just said opens up into a web of assumptions.

He helped Revan? How do you know he was with him constantly or even partially during their adventure? Does it say that Jolee canonically even participated in the wars? For all you know, he only killed ten people. Hell, maybe not even.

Actually, near the end of RotS, It basically shows that Yoda is about to teach Kenobi how to communicate with Qui Gon so it could have been Yoda, not Jinn. Don't make such foolish assumptions.

Originally posted by Fishy
. Before the Jedi Civil War nobody even knew about Jolee he was a hermit, he went into hiding. He wasn't a great Jedi Knight the Jedi Order didn't look for him. How the disciple knew about him is beyond me, but he probably learned something about Jolee travelling with Revan and decided he was important. But being a Jedi that has seen and travelled a lot and being a great Jedi are two completely different things.

QGJ and Obi Wan wouldn't work well together anymore. Its been 10 years since Obi Wan last fought with QGJ and he started learning a different style.

In response to your first post, there is no evidence that nobody knew who Bindo was. Just because they didn't mention him, it doesn't mean that they didn't know who he was and because of the fact that the disciple knew about him (an antiquarian) it is likely that he was well known throughout the order. As I have already said, it seems that the disciple regarded his achievements on the same level of Bass's teachings, and if he was actually talking about his adventures with Revan, don't you think he would have said Revan's adventures?

Originally posted by Fishy
Before the Jedi Civil War nobody even knew about Jolee he was a hermit, he went into hiding. He wasn't a great Jedi Knight the Jedi Order didn't look for him. How the disciple knew about him is beyond me, but he probably learned something about Jolee travelling with Revan and decided he was important. But being a Jedi that has seen and travelled a lot and being a great Jedi are two completely different things.

QGJ and Obi Wan wouldn't work well together anymore. Its been 10 years since Obi Wan last fought with QGJ and he started learning a different style.

Well the fact that the disciple knew about him disproves what you said, and just because hardly anybody mentioned him, it doesn't mean that they didn't know of him. In fact why would they mention him? The jedi would usually be ashamed of someone resigning and would not likely talk about his exploits. And if the disciple was really talking about his adventures with Revan, don't you think he would have said Revan's adventures?

Originally posted by zod360
Actually he tells Revan about it. His wife was seduced by Kun's teachings and turned against Bindo and the jedi. And even though he hibernated in the shadowlands for quite a long time, he then helpd Revan on his quest and fought in the jedi civil war. And we know that Jinn trained Kenobi the art of becoming a force ghost, so why wouldn't he have trained him in the force.

As you can see, I have backed up everything I have said.


As I can see, what you just said opens up into a web of assumptions.

He helped Revan? How do you know he was with him constantly or even partially during their adventure? Does it say that Jolee canonically even participated in the wars? For all you know, he only killed ten people. Hell, maybe not even.

Actually, near the end of RotS, It basically shows that Yoda is about to teach Kenobi how to communicate with Qui Gon so it could have been Yoda, not Jinn. Don't make such foolish assumptions.

Originally posted by zod360
Well the fact that the disciple knew about him disproves what you said, and just because hardly anybody mentioned him, it doesn't mean that they didn't know of him. In fact why would they mention him? The jedi would usually be ashamed of someone resigning and would not likely talk about his exploits. And if the disciple was really talking about his adventures with Revan, don't you think he would have said Revan's adventures?

It doesn't disprove anything. I said that he could have learned about Jolee because he learned Jolee travelled with Revan, and why would he talk about Revan's adventures, thats common knowledge and history no way in hell that the Jedi Order would lose information about that. Information about Jolee however could easily have been lost and therefor finding it would be a higher priority of the disciple then knowledge about Revan.

Besides he could have been talking about Jolee because he found out some things about Jolee, but that still in no way proves that Jolee is powerful or great. If he was Revan would have captured or killed him the first time they went to the Star Map on Kashyyyk. Obviously he believed Jolee wasn't important enough.

Originally posted by Fishy
It doesn't disprove anything. I said that he could have learned about Jolee because he learned Jolee travelled with Revan, and why would he talk about Revan's adventures, thats common knowledge and history no way in hell that the Jedi Order would lose information about that. Information about Jolee however could easily have been lost and therefor finding it would be a higher priority of the disciple then knowledge about Revan.

Besides he could have been talking about Jolee because he found out some things about Jolee, but that still in no way proves that Jolee is powerful or great. If he was Revan would have captured or killed him the first time they went to the Star Map on Kashyyyk. Obviously he believed Jolee wasn't important enough.

Revan would have captured or killed him? The canonical Revan is lightsided, and seeing how Jolee didn't in any way show hostility, why would Revan do these things?

And Sorgo, Yoda makes it clear that he would train Kenobi on how to communicate with Jinn, and that Jinn had training for him. It is very likely that Jinn trained him in more ways then how to become a spirit.

There is also going to be a last of the jedi series of ten books. This will likely reveal lots of things that Kenobi does after the rise of the empire, and do you really think that they would write ten books about Kenobi doing nothing.

Zod360 = Numan?

Originally posted by zod360
There is also going to be a last of the jedi series of ten books. This will likely reveal lots of things that Kenobi does after the rise of the empire, and do you really think that they would write ten books about Kenobi doing nothing.

He doesn't necessarily have to train. And where'd you hear this?

Yes but there are not going to be ten books on him doing nothing. And yes it is Numan. I am trying to get my ban uplifted by following all of the rules (apart from multiple accounts) and lay off the insults and immaturity.

how about correcting your age while you're at it?

10 is not the required minium age of 15, and yes i cant be bothered to spell.

PS how about stop degrading the most powerful force user aka Ragnos, and accept that DN Luke cant beat him.

Well that is something that I obviously can't do, so I am just going to hope they will allow me to go on anyway. I sent a message to Rex saying that if the mods uplift my ban, I will follow the rules and lay off insults and follow any other conditions they say.

You're 10. Minimum age is 13. You don't want to play with the big boys. Get over it. Go find something else to do until you're 13.

I wouldn't really call you one of the "big boys" Arker. I wouldn't quite put you in that catagory. You are more in the DE Calvin catagory.

I didn't say I was. There are more than just teens on this forum, you know.

And stop socking, there's no point in doing it if no one has your respect or trust.

Originally posted by zod360
Well that is something that I obviously can't do, so I am just going to hope they will allow me to go on anyway. I sent a message to Rex saying that if the mods uplift my ban, I will follow the rules and lay off insults and follow any other conditions they say.

Rules are rules, you would've been wise not to mention your age, adding unto the fact, you cannot debate with proper logic, and i dont blame you, you're rather young.

Also, use more caution, you know how childish that sounds? and what a futile promise that is? Obviously, if you changed aliase and perhaps changed your location, and lied better, and perhaps edited your profile, none of us will know exactly how old nor who you were, blatantly declaring you're a banned member does not bode well for you.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Rules are rules, you would've been wise not to mention your age, adding unto the fact, you cannot debate with proper logic, and i dont blame you, you're rather young.

Also, use more caution, you know how childish that sounds? and what a futile promise that is? Obviously, if you changed aliase and perhaps changed your location, and lied better, and perhaps edited your profile, none of us will know exactly how old nor who you were, blatantly declaring you're a banned member does not bode well for you.

Just because you do not agree with my views, it doesn't mean that I don't use logic. I've used plenty in this debate for example. And if I really didn't want people to know I was Numan, I would do all those things listed. I want people to know its me and how banning me won't make a difference and at least that I will follow the rules and stuff if my ban is uplifted.

That's what w00t is saying.

YOU CAN'T BE HERE AND FOLLOW ALL THE RULES IF YOU'RE UNDERAGED.

In fact, that's one of the most important rules.

Originally posted by zod360
Revan would have captured or killed him? The canonical Revan is lightsided, and seeing how Jolee didn't in any way show hostility, why would Revan do these things?

THe first time I said that in the other post... but you probably just missed it with your oh so great reading skills.

And the first time Revan was on the Dark Side, and well on his way to become or perhaps he already was a Sith Lord.

It is very likely that Revan and Malak did not come across Bindo. Bindo would have remembered if they had.

Originally posted by zod360
It is very likely that Revan and Malak did not come across Bindo. Bindo would have remembered if they had.

When is the last time you played the game? Bindo knew Revan was Revan when he came in Kashyyyk the second time. He figured out something had changed though and didn't say anything against Revan, not until the moment that Revan figured it out himself, or actually when Malak told him. Jolee knew.

Originally posted by zod360
Just because you do not agree with my views, it doesn't mean that I don't use logic. I've used plenty in this debate for example. And if I really didn't want people to know I was Numan, I would do all those things listed. I want people to know its me and how banning me won't make a difference and at least that I will follow the rules and stuff if my ban is uplifted.

Perhaps you're shouldn't its just me, moreso noone here agrees with your views, including the moderators, which is more the reason why your ban wont be uplifted, you call game play logic? you call, give me proof thats right in my face, you're as blatant as seeing is believing, therefore you are wrong.

Actually Ushgarak agreed with most of my views. It is not my fault if the magority of the people on this forum are fanboys of the ancient sith.

Originally posted by Fishy
When is the last time you played the game? Bindo knew Revan was Revan when he came in Kashyyyk the second time. He figured out something had changed though and didn't say anything against Revan, not until the moment that Revan figured it out himself, or actually when Malak told him. Jolee knew.

Oh right, my bad. They might have not fully turned to the dark side by that time anyway. They were clearly already on the path but they only officialy declared themselves sith and declared war on the republic once they had fully oncovered the secrets of the star forge.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Perhaps you're shouldn't its just me, moreso noone here agrees with your views, including the moderators, which is more the reason why your ban wont be uplifted, you call game play logic? you call, give me proof thats right in my face, you're as blatant as seeing is believing, therefore you are wrong.

Wesker and Sorgo have been banned before, yet their bans have been uplifted and they continue to insult people here. My age is not an issue and not the real reason why I got banned. The mods knew I was 10 for ages before I was banned. It was when I started acting like a dick towards Rex that I got banned.

Do you have any proof that the mods knew?

Well pretty much everybody reported it. And Rex and Ushgarak definitely knew a long time before.

Actually we said it a million times but it wasn't until we quoted you that you got banned...



They were still on the Dark Side and had already converted a lot of people to their side, if Jolee was a great or a legendary Jedi they would have killed him or they would have turned him to their side. No way in hell that they would just have let him walk, they aren't stupid.

Have you got any proof to that first statement.

Read the thread at the top of the page... Somebody posted a quote and not much later you were banned. That was the reason. And you are going to get banned again, your 10 years old. You aren't allowed to be here.

Edit: Why the hell are we talking about that anyway? It has nothing to do with this thread... So lets stay on topic

Dooku wins.

"They were still on the Dark Side and had already converted a lot of people to their side".

I meant this statement.

Malak says on Dantooine (the first star map they found) "are you sure you want to go through with this, after this there is no turning back" or something like that.

They were well on their way to the Dark Side.

They found the Star Maps after Malachor V, during the time they were in the unknown regions, or supposedly in the unknown regions. During this time they had already converted their army, which includes a lot of ex-Jedi turned Sith and god knows how many soldiers. The Exile speculates that Revan used Malachor V and the mass shadow generator to destroy the parts of his army that weren't loyal to him and that wouldn't turn to the Dark Side.

Seeing as they found the Star Maps after that, we know that Revan was indeed on the Dark Side and had already converted people. He would have done the same with Jolee if Jolee was of importance, obviously Revan and Malak felt that Jolee could stay there that he wasn't a threat and probably just not worth their time or effort to kill or turn.

How do you know that they didn't find them before Malachor V.

Because they were searching for them after Malachor V...

they were away supposedly hunting Mandelorians in the unknown regions, when reports came around of them being on several planets. Dantooine, Manaan, Korriban, Tatooine, Kashyyyk.. The planets with the Star Maps...

They found the star map on Dantooine before the mandalorian wars.

No they didn't.

Revan woar his robes when he found the Star Map on Dantooine, he didn't start wearing those robes until well into the Mandelorian wars. According to some to symbolize the deaths on the republic side, but according to most (including Jedi) to hide his face from view so that the corruption of the Dark Side wouldn't show.

It is made clear that they have not turned to the dark side yet, and KOTOR2 reveals that they turned in Malachor V. Don't you think that the jedi on Dantooine would notice them looking for ancient relics.

Originally posted by zod360
Well pretty much everybody reported it. And Rex and Ushgarak definitely knew a long time before.
No, this is bullshit. It wasn't until the post was dug up and shown to someone who could ban (Along with your other assinine posts) that you were banned. You're too young to be here, get over it. Go play Nintendo or something.

No, Kreia turned to the Dark Side on Malachor V, not Revan.

By the way, there is an age limit?

No, it wasn't until I made fun of Rex that I got banned. And "Go play Nintendo or something". WTF? Is that really the best you can come up with and it is slightly hypocritical seeing as how you have played pretty much every star wars game there is.

Yeah, you have to be at least 13.

Rules

And it's Kreia's own speculation that Revan never fell. I personally disagree with her evaluation. Revan could never have used the dark side and become a Sith Lord if he had not been seduced by the dark side.

Yeah, It's like slaying a whole bunch of people, and saying your not a murderer. I think he did fall.

Originally posted by Xepeyon
Yeah, It's like slaying a whole bunch of people, and saying your not a murderer. I think he did fall.

I always thought he had a semi-good reason for doing what he did...

They makers may reveal something like that in KOTOR III, But I think it's highly unlikely. If he didn't fall, his followers would have sensed it. Besides that, why would he train Sith Lords who plunge the galaxy into darkness on a regular basis, along with thousands of Dark Jedi, along with killing Jedi. If Revan claims that he had good intentions for doing all this(without an AMAZINGLY good reason), he's on the edge of being Psychotic.

Originally posted by Xepeyon
They makers may reveal something like that in KOTOR III, But I think it's highly unlikely. If he didn't fall, his followers would have sensed it. Besides that, why would he train Sith Lords who plunge the galaxy into darkness on a regular basis, along with thousands of Dark Jedi, along with killing Jedi. If Revan claims that he had good intentions for doing all this(without an AMAZINGLY good reason), he's on the edge of being Psychotic.

I never said he didn't fall, I only said I believe that he a good reason. Although personaly I don't think he fell completely, at least nothing like Malak.

Of course then you get into those ugly arguments like per say... if killing this innocent child will let 100 more innocent children live then is it the right thing to do?

Most people fall for a good reason, I'm sure Revan knew the Republic only had one chance, and decided to do whatever it took to make sure it would survive one way or another. But he did turn to the Dark Side to do it...

If Revan hadn't became the Dark Lord, the Mandalorians would have wiped out the Republic.

A crippled Republic is better than no Republic...

Of course, but I think the point was one of consequentialism versus moral motivations. Remember my earlier arguments on the moral goodness of an act- it must have both a good will behind the motivation and the act itself must be good or it cannot be considered a good decision at all. Keep in mind this is disregarding the outcome entirely. Good outcome or bad outcome, the action is morally justified if the motivation and act were founded in good intent.

Unfortunately, Revan may have had good intent, but his actions were evil. Therefore, it is foolish to say that his was a moral choice. The jedi saw this. He had fallen.

Originally posted by Wesker
Of course, but I think the point was one of consequentialism versus moral motivations. Remember my earlier arguments on the moral goodness of an act- it must have both a good will behind the motivation and the act itself must be good or it cannot be considered a good decision at all. Keep in mind this is disregarding the outcome entirely. Good outcome or bad outcome, the action is morally justified if the motivation and act were founded in good intent.

Unfortunately, Revan may have had good intent, but his actions were evil. Therefore, it is foolish to say that his was a moral choice. The jedi saw this. He had fallen.

Obviously your moral views differ with that from Revan, but not like it matters. What Revan did was evil and in the Star Wars universe doing an evil act makes you evil. And the more you do them the more you go to the Dark Side. I think that Revan at first like many people that joined the Dark Side went over a bit, to do what was necessary, to destroy the Mandelorian invaders. But as he did he turned darker and darker and started caring less and less for the people on the planets, victory was all that mattered. He probably told himself he was doing the right thing, but most Dark Side users do that, until some point where they just realise they can't stop anymore.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. It's cliche but it's true.

Originally posted by Wesker
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. It's cliche but it's true.

Yeah especially in the Star Wars universe, the only person I can think off this fast that turned Sith without good intentions was Exar Kun, for the rest almost everybody had good intentions when they turned, but that simply isn't enough...

(I am tired though, so there could be a lot more)

Sidious didn't have any good intent. He's probably the most sociopathic of the Sith that I can see. The Ancient Sith were born into their roles. Exar Kun was ambitious and power hungry. Freedan Nadd was the same. Revan had good intent, but he was probably ambitious and controlling. Lord Kaan was nuts, and Bane is... um... Odd.

What? Was Bane nuts or something?

Bane was the Michael Jackson of the Sith Lords.

Well Sids was probably raised as a Sith since birth, he didn't really turn to the Dark Side, I have no idea about Kaan or Bane, I think both of them were born as Sith, but I am not sure.

Still Dooku turned for a reason, Anakin turned for a reason, Luke in DE turned for a reason, Quinlan Vos turned for a reason... all of them turned to do good, pretty much every Sith that followed Revan and/or Malak turned for a reason. Ulic Qel Droma turned for a reason...

More turned to do good then because they wanted to join, but every single last one of them eventually got corrupted and some of them never managed to escape the Dark Side.

Every once-in-a-while you'll find a Sith Lord who was always downright evil, but most seemed to have turned with good intentions in mind.

BTW, Are Sith Holocrons suppost to be rejected to ALL jedi?

Vodo apparently knew some shit from one, so I'd say not. But the holocron guardians might try and harm or corrupt a jedi.

No... Odan Urr had one, I doubt they are supposed to stop the Jedi. The holocron did corrupt Jedi though once it was destroyed. I think the message in the Holocron corrupts but the holocron itself can not detect Dark or light and decide to work or not work depending on somebody's allegiance.

I've heard different somewhere else though.

Odan still managed to use the holocron though and he isn't on the Dark Side...

Originally posted by zod360
And Sorgo, Yoda makes it clear that he would train Kenobi on how to communicate with Jinn, and that Jinn had training for him. It is very likely that Jinn trained him in more ways then how to become a spirit.

No offense, but likely doesn't cut it.

Originally posted by zod360
It is obvious that Revan would have taken his jedi companions with him on the Star Forge, and as he was also his most powerful companion bar Bastilla, it is likely that he accompanied him on many of his missions. And it is obvious that Revan's crew helped him on his quest. This is implied throughout the game. And you have completely misinterpreted the end of ROTS if that is what you believe.

Misinterpret? Maybe you need to go see the Movie again, kid.


RotS Script:

YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

OBI-WAN: Training??

YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon? But, how could he accomplish this?

YODA: The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills, he studied. How to commune with him. I will teach you.


^ That would be Yoda training Kenobi how to communicate with Jinn, like I said earlier.

No you were implying that Jinn might have not taught him at all and that yoda would teach him.

Originally posted by zod360
No you were implying that Jinn might have not taught him at all and that yoda would teach him.

Damn rights. What evidence do you have that Qui Gon continued training with Kenobi?

Originally posted by zod360
Well Yoda didn't specifically state what training that Jinn had for Kenobi, but what we do know is that Yoda taught him how to communicate with Jinn, and that Jinn taught him how to become a force spirit. I was just saying that it was likely that Yoda and Jinn might have trained him in something else, but that is just speculation and not what I was relying on for my argument.


Ah. I see.


Jinn taught Kenobi immorality.


What makes you think STILL that Yoda did not teach this? Yoda taught Kenobi how to speak to them. Why not teach him how to become one?

Well Yoda makes it clear that he is going to teach Kenobi how to communicate with Jinn so that Jinn could give him furthur training.