A thought on the idea of an all-good God...

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Wesker
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

Morgoths_Wrath
Originally posted by Wesker
either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

neither of these would be accepted by a Christian, but what other conclusion could there be?

Atlantis001

Bardock42
Well on the one hand why does evil need to exist for a God to be all good? I think that is a wrong assumption.

Second, who ever said that a child dying in water was evil?

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Wesker
Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

Yes. As Neo would say, "Choice. The problem is choice."

The child made a choice, God is constrained to leave free agency/will be.

However, this would not hinder the mercy of God in the resurrection as ignorance is not something that makes you unworthy of your reward.

Life here is not the point. The life after is. God is constrained here out of justice, but can exercise mercy in the after. However, he cannot be merciful if you 'sin away' your reward.

Wesker
I think everyone's missing one key point though- the idea of an all-powerful, all-good God is incompatable with freedom of choice and the existance of evil.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Yes. As Neo would say, "Choice. The problem is choice."

The child made a choice, God is constrained to leave free agency/will be.

However, this would not hinder the mercy of God in the resurrection as ignorance is not something that makes you unworthy of your reward.

Life here is not the point. The life after is. God is constrained here out of justice, but can exercise mercy in the after. However, he cannot be merciful if you 'sin away' your reward.

"Innocent bystander" is an oxymoron. One who stands by and does nothing while someone is hurt can hardly be called innocent.

The child, i.e. human beings may not have understood the warning of the lifeguard, i.e. God or the consequences of his actions.

Any lifeguard who says, "I warned the child to stay away from the water. By disobeying me, he made a choice. And I am constrained to not interfere with his free will," is not a very good lifeguard.

Moreover, no one has free will according to the Bible:

Bardock42
Originally posted by Wesker
I think everyone's missing one key point though- the idea of an all-powerful, all-good God is incompatable with freedom of choice and the existance of evil.

Well I agree with you on the freedome thing. Evil doesn'T need to exist for something to be all-good.

Storm

eggmayo
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well on the one hand why does evil need to exist for a God to be all good? I think that is a wrong assumption.


There cannot be good without evil, they are two contrasting forces.

Hit_and_Miss
the basic idea here is why doesn't god intervene.. This is a common attack at Christians...

Why doesn't god answer prayers?
Why doesn't god stop all the killings?
Why does god let people get sick or starve??

What you have to understand is that god is not trying to force you to accept him.. By intervening at any time he would prove his existence (Now god did send his only son to us, You could say why did he do this if he doesn't want to force us to accept him? The answer being before jesus came we knew nothing of god, with his departure people still refused to believe, as not all had seen him or heard of him).. Now if he proved his existence it would force none believers to accept him not out of choice but out of fear...

God doesn't want you to accept him cause you have no choice in the matter....

debbiejo
Your view of god is limited if you go by scripture. You cannot have the negative without the positives or good without evil. It's part of what we are. A god doesn't intervene because we create what we experience as a human race. God is in both the negatives along with the positives.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
the basic idea here is why doesn't god intervene.. This is a common attack at Christians...

Why doesn't god answer prayers?
Why doesn't god stop all the killings?
Why does god let people get sick or starve??

What you have to understand is that god is not trying to force you to accept him.. By intervening at any time he would prove his existence (Now god did send his only son to us, You could say why did he do this if he doesn't want to force us to accept him? The answer being before jesus came we knew nothing of god, with his departure people still refused to believe, as not all had seen him or heard of him).. Now if he proved his existence it would force none believers to accept him not out of choice but out of fear...

God doesn't want you to accept him cause you have no choice in the matter....

Please.

In the Bible, God regularly proves His existence, communicates with human beings, interferes in human affairs, and suspends free will.

leonheartmm
again, no defence can be presented on god's behalf.

Hit_and_Miss
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Please.

In the Bible, God regularly proves His existence, communicates with human beings, interferes in human affairs, and suspends free will.

God only really showed himself to a few people, 1 at a time... and never did anything that would radicaly cause views to change...

Yes back then is different then today... back then it was to get his message across, It was needed to convince the people that Jesus wasn't crazy... if he did it today people would capture it, and everyone would be forced to believe... or suffer in hell...

Its not a perfect view, I'll admit that the bible is very rusty... I wouldn't take but the most basic message from it, otherwise a combination of time and old age views distort the message...

Wesker
Excellent feedback on this. I really appreciate it, guys. The first argument I just kinda thought of while driving to school one day. It's a very interesting and definate argument, I might say. One that's always bothered me.

Wesker
I thought this was far more throught provoking than "r u atheist" and "r u christhun" and "omfg teh mormuns r comng", but I suppose I was wrong.

finti
yeah like there is none

Janus Marius
bump

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
There cannot be good without evil, they are two contrasting forces.

No, that's Bullshit, there can...people like to throw that around but it isn't true.

debbiejo
There are always polarized opposites.

Shakyamunison
God is both good and evil for without evil, good could not exist.

Good and evil are abstractions of something greater and the greater something is what God is.

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
There are always polarized opposites.

Not true.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God is both good and evil for without evil, good could not exist.

Good and evil are abstractions of something greater and the greater something is what God is.

Prove it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not true.



Prove it.

Prove what?

debbiejo
Prove what exactly....Things are always in opposites........Though we only give names to them like good and evil...they are both of the same power, but just polarized......

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not true.



Prove it.

Translation: I am a relativist. I cannot be convinced. Convince me otherwise.

Save it, Bardock. If you think there is no good or no evil, than you are not worth explaining anything to. You are already deluded.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not true.



Prove it.

OK

What is bigger, God or everything?

Janus Marius
lol

debbiejo
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Translation: I am a relativist. I cannot be convinced. Convince me otherwise.

Save it, Bardock. If you think there is no good or no evil, than you are not worth explaining anything to. You are already deluded. Well he is from Germany........ roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing out loud .j/k

Janus Marius
Which is funny, because they are notorious for being idealists.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK

What is bigger, God or everything? Does Everything Include God? Then the answer is either equal or everything.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Prove what?

Prove that "God is both good and evil for without evil, good could not exist.

Good and evil are abstractions of something greater and the greater something is what God is."

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Translation: I am a relativist. I cannot be convinced. Convince me otherwise.

Save it, Bardock. If you think there is no good or no evil, than you are not worth explaining anything to. You are already deluded.

You believe that there is good and evil...for some reason that is quite nonsensical. Who decides what is good and evil? But that is besides the point. Why does Evil need to exist dfor good to be there?

debbiejo
You don't have to look at it that way for there to be polarized opposites...and what we would call good and evil is still subjective anyway to some point.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
Does Everything Include God? Then the answer is either equal or everything...

If God has everything as part of God then that would include good and evil. But good and evil do not exist without each other.

Janus Marius
I like how Bardock wants proof of the metaphysical.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I like how Bardock wants proof of the metaphysical. Yep, and though there have been many many proofs with experiments...unless he sees it or experiences it for himself he will never experience it......but I have.

Black Rob
Originally posted by Wesker
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious. no one ever just says that maybe God is beyond human morality and that he cant be defined as good or evil

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Black Rob
no one ever just says that maybe God is beyond human morality and that he cant be defined as good or evil

No, that was kind of what I was getting at.

Blue nocturne
Originally posted by Black Rob
no one ever just says that maybe God is beyond human morality and that he cant be defined as good or evil

Well yahweh defines himself as both good and evil in the tanakh.

Black Rob
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, that was kind of what I was getting at. my bad,anyway if you read a lot of passages from the bible the claim that God is purely benevolent doesnt even make sense. If the bible is indeed a true telling of history,then God is just like a person. For one,numerous times God is referred to as being angry or jealous,traits that are considered sinful.Also he put the lives of people on the line just to prove points. So even by christians own tomes,God is capable of doing terrible things.If the bible really is true (which i am open to believing) then there's a good chance that those interpreting these stories just wanted to believe there creator is a purely good being and that all evils were committed by Satan.It would make perfect sense since many historians could tell you that the bible has been edited and changed numerous times over the years.

Blue nocturne
Originally posted by Black Rob
my bad,anyway if you read a lot of passages from the bible the claim that God is purely benevolent doesnt even make sense. If the bible is indeed a true telling of history,then God is just like a person. For one,numerous times God is referred to as being angry or jealous,traits that are considered sinful.Also he put the lives of people on the line just to prove points. So even by christians own tomes,God is capable of doing terrible things.


I've always said the same thing.

Black Rob
Originally posted by Bardock42
Why does Evil need to exist dfor good to be there? how can you have hot without cold? how can you have big without small? For one extreme to be defined you need the opposite.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Blue nocturne
I've always said the same thing. Me too........You can find the info out just by visiting your local library. ........It is free ya know.

docb77
Here's an LDS scripture that I'll throw into the mix. Make of it what you will.

2 Nephi 2 11-6

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Black Rob
how can you have hot without cold? how can you have big without small? For one extreme to be defined you need the opposite. Well, you either need the concept, or you say (and that's what I'd do if I was God) "everythin is good" (or at least everything in this world he created, that might still leave evil to be outside of that world, but at least everything we know is good....

Janus Marius
But the definition of good isn't "everything", Bardock.

Black Rob
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, you either need the concept, or you say (and that's what I'd do if I was God) "everythin is good" (or at least everything in this world he created, that might still leave evil to be outside of that world, but at least everything we know is good.... it would be impossible for everything to be good because then there would be nothing to contrast with.For something to be good something has to be bad just to understand what good is. One can not exist without the other.

docb77
Honestly, I think evil is just good twisted.

Examples:

Good - Love
Evil - Lust

Good -Self-reliance
Evil - Greed

Good - Self-mastery
Evil - Tyrany

Anything evil is just something that could have been good but perverted.

Janus Marius
So you're arguing like the old Platonic ideals of extremes? Take this for instance...

Love, Lust, Hatred... All basically the same time of visceral feeling of attachment. However, hatred is negative and extreme. Lust is positive but extreme. Love is moderation.

docb77
Hey, I don't have all the kinks worked out, and I never really studied philosophy. but it sounds fair. I wouldn't call lust positive, it's basically selfish in nature.

So maybe not extremes, but more like funhouse mirrors. Evil is a twisted representation of something that was good.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Janus Marius
So you're arguing like the old Platonic ideals of extremes? Take this for instance...

Love, Lust, Hatred... All basically the same time of visceral feeling of attachment. However, hatred is negative and extreme. Lust is positive but extreme. Love is moderation.

I would agree with that.

Do you remember that movie "Dark Cristal"? At the end the two groups came together and became one. I think that was a good illustration, although simplistic, of the true nature of good and evil.

JacopeX
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious. God always knows what will happen next or what will happen if this happened or anything. He cant interfere wit people lives because he has them use there objects well in life. If they use those objects god left us in charge wit that will help us out, you will do things right. This isnt litreally though. God helps us if you belive. He dosent really have a mind of his own. He does what is right always and always makes the right decision alwys. Anything he decides or dosent decide in doing, im sure its a very good reason.

Example- You were about to go t a vacation to the Bahamas, but you arm brakes causing you to miss the flight and couldnt go. God did it because the plane that was on its way to Bahamas, the same flight you were gonna go crashed. God helped you because you belived in him and you used the objects he gave you to suceed in life. He helps but you must see things also, so he leaves with that..

Black Rob
Originally posted by JacopeX
God always knows what will happen next or what will happen if this happened or anything. He cant interfere wit people lives because he has them use there objects well in life. If they use those objects god left us in charge wit that will help us out, you will do things right. This isnt litreally though. God helps us if you belive. He dosent really have a mind of his own. He does what is right always and always makes the right decision alwys. Anything he decides or dosent decide in doing, im sure its a very good reason.

Example- You were about to go t a vacation to the Bahamas, but you arm brakes causing you to miss the flight and couldnt go. God did it because the plane that was on its way to Bahamas, the same flight you were gonna go crashed. God helped you because you belived in him and you used the objects he gave you to suceed in life. He helps but you must see things also, so he leaves with that.. What about the others on the plane? why didnt he warn them?Are those people all just sinners who deserved to die?What about the guy who survives,is he better than the ones that died simply because he "believed" he would?Why couldnt something good happen to you to make you not go on the plane?Why does it have to be something bad for you not to go on the plane? What if you die the next day because you get hit by a car exiting the hospital?

And the ultimate question-Why did the plane crash at all? To prove that everything works out in the end? Several people die a horrible death,but one guy doesnt,so that alone proves God's purely benevolent?

docb77
The only way you can really reconcile a just God with the injustices of the world we live in is if you accept that there is more than just this world. If we are also eternal spirits who existed before we were born and will exist again afterwards.

JacopeX
Originally posted by Black Rob
What about the others on the plane? why didnt he warn them?Are those people all just sinners who deserved to die?What about the guy who survives,is he better than the ones that died simply because he "believed" he would?Why couldnt something good happen to you to make you not go on the plane?Why does it have to be something bad for you not to go on the plane? What if you die the next day because you get hit by a car exiting the hospital?

And the ultimate question-Why did the plane crash at all? To prove that everything works out in the end? Several people die a horrible death,but one guy doesnt,so that alone proves God's purely benevolent? Of course he probably did warn others. Other than that, they couldve jus seen things or went wit there counciess if they felt somethin wuz wrong. Would you rather die or get your arm broken. Im sure he warned others and not only one person. The plane crash is very unknown why it would crash. God is the one that knows if the plane will crash or not. He proably knew that the pilot might of fainted or something. He cant do notyhin about but help others by havin them not get in. And as for the pilot, he is probably ment to be in heaven wit god. I donno how to explain for the pilot

Captain Falcon
wait, I've got something about the devil.



the devil is all-evil
the devil tortures those who are against god
when christians torture those who are against god, it's classed as good because it's for god
so if the devil does things for god, he should be good
but the devil is also the abscence of god
so if the devil is doing bad things for good, god should be doing good things for bad

right? Or is it made up? Which makes more sense?

debbiejo
But whose gonna torture the devil, isn't he supposed to be punished in the end?

Captain Falcon
Originally posted by debbiejo
But whose gonna torture the devil, isn't he supposed to be punished in the end? hey that never occured to me eek!



but, evil is something that happens. It's different to all people, that's why I hate religion, they try to control you and make you think the way they want you to think.

Captain Falcon
If Jesus loves all, does that make him a bisexual swinger?

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Captain Falcon
If Jesus loves all, does that make him a bisexual swinger?

It makes him a bisexual beastial-necrophelliac.

Originally posted by JacopeX
I donno how to explain for the pilot

You cant explain it because it's horseshit.

Janus Marius
Indeed. The idea of pain and suffering isn't compatable with the idea of a good god who wants to do anything about it. So either god is a helpless Gandhi-figure, or he's so vain and disinterested that he could care less. Or he's not good or evil, but both.

JacopeX
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You cant explain it because it's horseshit. No, im ent i cant explain it as in hard to explain.

Janus Marius
Please try. That's what this discussion thread is for.

JacopeX
Originally posted by debbiejo
But whose gonna torture the devil, isn't he supposed to be punished in the end? God created a place for all that should be punished for all sins and that place is called hell. Satan, a former angel who was the right hand man of God, wuz sent there for sayin he is almighty powerful than god.

Tangible God
And if Satan is in Hell to punish the wicked, isn't he doing a good thing?

Janus Marius
... IF you consider torture ever a good thing.

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Janus Marius
... IF you consider torture ever a good thing.

Word, there's this girl I know that loves it when I tie her up and...

Actually, you don't need to know that.

Black Rob
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Word, there's this girl I know that loves it when I tie her up and...

Actually, you don't need to know that. yes i do

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Word, there's this girl I know that loves it when I tie her up and...

Actually, you don't need to know that.

I was thinking unwilling torture, actually. But do continue... lol

Eis
I can't be ****ed to read the whole topic but as for the original post.

God created a balanced world, there can't be bad without good and there can't be good without bad.
God didn't create badness. It's us humans that choose to go that way. God doesn't want to exterminate 'bad' because he wants us humans to say 'No, I am going to be good.'.

God wants balance in the world and he wants us to choose the right path.

Note: I'm not sure if that's what you were wanting to discuss, but that's what I got from the first post. stick out tongue


PS: I personally doubt there's a god and if there is I'm certain he or she is not the way he/she is portrayed by Christians.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Black Rob
yes i do confused ......Does make one wonder... laughing out loud

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I was thinking unwilling torture, actually. But do continue... lol

Originally posted by Black Rob
yes i do

Nah, you can use your imagination, but I'll let you know that it's really, really hot.

Eis
Arachnoidfreak, this is off topic but your sigs's awesome.

Mindship
Originally posted by Janus Marius

1. God is all-good.
2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.
3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.
4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.
5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.
6. Yet evil exists.
7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.


For good to exist, evil must exist.
If God is all-good, then He needs evil to exist.
Therefore, God chooses to let evil exist.
In doing so, God is not all-good.
But then, maybe evil ain't all that bad.

cool

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Eis
I can't be ****ed to read the whole topic but as for the original post.

God created a balanced world, there can't be bad without good and there can't be good without bad.
God didn't create badness. It's us humans that choose to go that way. God doesn't want to exterminate 'bad' because he wants us humans to say 'No, I am going to be good.'.

God wants balance in the world and he wants us to choose the right path.

Note: I'm not sure if that's what you were wanting to discuss, but that's what I got from the first post. stick out tongue


PS: I personally doubt there's a god and if there is I'm certain he or she is not the way he/she is portrayed by Christians.

PS certainly noted. Let's go over the idea that humans choose to go that way...

Have you heard of the term "Hard determinism"? It's basically the idea that because of the universal rule of cause and effect, all things that are in effect must have been caused. While you could haggle on and on about the idea of the first cause (Which is a fun topic in itself), if you take the approach that God exists and he is all-powerful, etc., he IS the first cause. Therefore, anything that results afterwards is because of events he put in motion in the first place, and things which reasonably- given his state- he should be able to control.

Now, with the idea of hard determinism in mind, it seemingly points out that human beings are every bit the victim to previous circumstances as is the pool ball that gets hit by the stick. The only person in this metaphysical equation who isn't a victim of circumstance is the First Mover, or First Cause- God.

So IF God exists AND he is the First Mover, THEN it stands to reason that he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on. The idea of the "problem of choice" is removed entirely.

Eis
Originally posted by Janus Marius
PS certainly noted. Let's go over the idea that humans choose to go that way...

Have you heard of the term "Hard determinism"? It's basically the idea that because of the universal rule of cause and effect, all things that are in effect must have been caused. While you could haggle on and on about the idea of the first cause (Which is a fun topic in itself), if you take the approach that God exists and he is all-powerful, etc., he IS the first cause. Therefore, anything that results afterwards is because of events he put in motion in the first place, and things which reasonably- given his state- he should be able to control.

Now, with the idea of hard determinism in mind, it seemingly points out that human beings are every bit the victim to previous circumstances as is the pool ball that gets hit by the stick. The only person in this metaphysical equation who isn't a victim of circumstance is the First Mover, or First Cause- God.

So IF God exists AND he is the First Mover, THEN it stands to reason that he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on. The idea of the "problem of choice" is removed entirely.
Look, it's quite simple.

Right now I can choose to go to the kitchen get a knife and kill all my family members or to do nothing. By god's law, killing is wrong. I can choose... To kill or not to kill. I choose not to.

Yes, God is the first mover and all things, good and bad (from his point of view) happen because of him but right now, I have a choice: To kill or not to kill. Sure, my ultimate decision is influenced in all my previous experiences but it doesn't mean I can't choose to do it.

God did the first move but he's far from controlling us, directly or indirectly.

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Eis
Arachnoidfreak, this is off topic but your sigs's awesome.

Why thank you, I try. Your sig isn't bad either, before I got my image editing program, I was the biggest fan of the simplest sigs. I must admit though, I dont know who Tiesto is. A band I haven't listened to I think?

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Eis
Look, it's quite simple.

I know. I already covered it.



Firstly, for someone who professes not to be of a Christian mindset, you sure apply a Christian ideal to the morality of killing. Anyways, the idea of having a choice is a delusion; what do you draw on to make that choice? The past. Everything that's ever happened to you. Events well beyond your control shaped every single thought, feeling, and action you've ever had. You are not just a personality developed in a vacuum, or in a void. If you don't realize this, you have a very long way to go.



Being able to choose and being uninfluenced in choice are two different concepts: the idea of choice only comes into play when there are alternatives available. But how we pick those alternatives is not just uninfluenced by our past, nor is it all under our control. Again, the human persona is dependant on a past to develop and exist. I have the choice not to post this reply. But I am. And why? Because I have an established persona, shaped by causes that predate my existance on such a scale I could never map it out in my lifetime, that compel me to see your post and disagree with it on principle. Yes, there is an alternative. But I end up choosing one. And what could make me NOT choose to reply? Another cause. Perhaps I was planning on replying but my computer died, or dinner's ready, or I get a phone call. While I could entertain the illusion that I had any real choice, whether or not I posted this reply wasn't dependant on me as being the "unmoved mover", or cause without a prior cause. That's ridiculous.



Again, you miss the point- God is the First Mover. Ergo, everything that happens is a result of his machinations. He is at fault, since he- by his very nature- must be free from the same causal obligations that we have. So, because he is the First Mover by definition, and by definition he has power over his creations, then anything that happens is his responsibility and his fault. Period.

Arachnoidfreak
That's like saying it's your great great great great grandparent's fault that you pissed in your closet once because you were too drunk to find the bathroom.

Great Vengeance
Id just like to point out, before you question Gods morality, if there is a God then he would obviously have a greater grasp of morality than we do.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Id just like to point out, before you question Gods morality, if there is a God then he would obviously have a greater grasp of morality than we do.

That violates Occam's Razor to make such a claim. Unless you can prove argumentally or empirically that morality can EXIST outside of human rational thinking, which would be akin to saying that beasts in the field operate morally along with the rocks and the vacuum in space. Saying God is "Above and beyond human morality" is attributing an unrealistic and irrational trait to God. With that mindset, you can argue (foolishly) that God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal just cuz... he's God.

Random sidethought---- The term "God" does imply a supernatural creator, but even how the world is created (that it follows certain rules and has order) implies that its creator (Should there be one) would need to be similar in nature. For example, if God were without order, rules, and without form, how could he create creation that HAS these things? How could you rationally define something from nothing? While at this point you could go into a whole spiel, that becomes a totally subjective and irrational approach on the topic, and it's just spouting your opinion. So to work objectively, we work within reason. Even God, so far as we discuss him, must be reasonable or else the topic has veered in the wrong direction. / side thought.

Now, if I conclude (As do the majority of you), that creation includes elements of evil, or non-good, it stands to reason that God is responsible for it, since he created everything. And if God creates evil, God is tainted by it, and is at fault for it. After all, he created EVERYTHING. Saying that God is somehow "not at fault" for something he had hand in creating is like saying a programmer isn't at fault for incomplete or corrupt data.



In a sense, but it goes well before his existance. Think of cause and effect as a near limitless span of dominoes that branch like veins.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Janus Marius
That violates Occam's Razor to make such a claim. Unless you can prove argumentally or empirically that morality can EXIST outside of human rational thinking, which would be akin to saying that beasts in the field operate morally along with the rocks and the vacuum in space. Saying God is "Above and beyond human morality" is attributing an unrealistic and irrational trait to God. With that mindset, you can argue (foolishly) that God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal just cuz... he's God.

Random sidethought---- The term "God" does imply a supernatural creator, but even how the world is created (that it follows certain rules and has order) implies that its creator (Should there be one) would need to be similar in nature. For example, if God were without order, rules, and without form, how could he create creation that HAS these things? How could you rationally define something from nothing? While at this point you could go into a whole spiel, that becomes a totally subjective and irrational approach on the topic, and it's just spouting your opinion. So to work objectively, we work within reason. Even God, so far as we discuss him, must be reasonable or else the topic has veered in the wrong direction. / side thought.

Now, if I conclude (As do the majority of you), that creation includes elements of evil, or non-good, it stands to reason that God is responsible for it, since he created everything. And if God creates evil, God is tainted by it, and is at fault for it. After all, he created EVERYTHING. Saying that God is somehow "not at fault" for something he had hand in creating is like saying a programmer isn't at fault for incomplete or corrupt data.





Yes your right...It does violate Occams Razor, though I still thought it a bit silly that we presume to grasp Gods law better than God himself. No worth in an argument between humans though...

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes your right...It does violate Occams Razor, though I still thought it a bit silly that we presume to grasp Gods law better than God himself. No worth in an argument between humans though...

Well, it's obvious that we cannot prove or disprove God's existance at this point, let alone his will and law. So any values we attach to either are purely subjective. From a rational argument standpoint, the odds are against god being all good.

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Janus Marius
In a sense, but it goes well before his existance. Think of cause and effect as a near limitless span of dominoes that branch like veins.

Oh, I know, I was just too lazy to write that many 'great's.

Janus Marius
So now kids can blame their parents for everything. Woot!

Arachnoidfreak
Woot! Yea!

*Breaks windows and vandalizes the walls*

Janus Marius
Somewhere, a moral relativist is going... "Yes! Finally!"

Mindship
One day (the sixth, to be exact), God said, "What would be a true test of my power? What would be more clever a creation than a being with free will? A being which may choose not to believe I exist. Now how cool would that be..."

Hence, the source of evil, OR, the best example of God's sense of humor.

As for God's sense of morality, or any Divine traits:
While I understand from a rational-empirical POV you wanna keep things testable, how does one, from that POV, operationally define "God," while staying true to the "spirit" (pun intended) of what we'd be testing for?

Punker69
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

Alot of ignorant statements made. But let me tackle one. Just because God chooses not to stop evil completely NOW, doesn't mean he's helpless against it. Read Revelations. Evil and evil people will have their end in due time. When judgement day comes for sinners evil will have been banished in the Lake of Fire for eternity. Life on earth is such a short time on the scale of eternity.

Also God did save the child. I feel like he's run out in the ocean and has saved unbelievers so many times. The Devil comes to "steal, kill, and destroy". If Satan had a say we'd all be dead right now. But we're still alive. I believe God has swam out in the ocean many times for us and saved us from drowning. But alot of people kick out of his arms and choose to drown anyways. There's only so much God can do with people who dont love him.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Punker69
Alot of ignorant statements made.

Only real ignorance I see here is coming from your corner. Everyone else aside from Bardock seems to be at least civil about this.



Gee, just one? I thought you were the non-ignorant one here. Can't get your boots dirty?



The idea that God chooses not to stop evil NOW means he's not GOOD. No good person lets evil happen if they can prevent it, period.



I did. Boring ass read. And if you think the Bible is the answer to all my rational arguments, you are a fool.



O rly? Can you PROVE this? Without the holy Bible? This is not "answer my moral dilemma with subjective personal faith" thread... this is "There is a problem with the rational nature of god being all good" thread. Get it right. Unless you can attempt to rationalize the situation at hand, don't bother.



I'd like to see some evidence of the existance of the Lake of Fire, and it's effects on intangible spirits. And really, this whole "It's going to be solved in the afterlife/future" ordeal behind religion is pretty piss-poor excuse for God not giving a shit right now. If this life doesn't matter, why have moral laws?



God should ideally save ALL the children, from themselves and from harm and suffering if he is indeed ALL GOOD. He does not. Therefore, he is not. Period.



That's pretty. Really. Brought a tear to my eye. Unfortunately, I don't believe in any of that crap, and your belief and take on God doesn't change the argument and dilemma. Nice try though.

For the record, I don't like you because of how you've treated others in the past as a hypocrite and a judgmental *******, and you really didn't endear yourself to me by saying:

Originally posted by Punker69
Alot of ignorant statements made.

So please, do me a favor and don't reply to my threads or posts.

Arachnoidfreak

Punker69
Originally posted by Janus Marius
The idea that God chooses not to stop evil NOW means he's not GOOD. No good person lets evil happen if they can prevent it, period.

Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I did. Boring ass read. And if you think the Bible is the answer to all my rational arguments, you are a fool.

Its not unheard of. But I am interested to know why exactly you found Revelations to be a boring read when so many find it to be the most fascinating in the Bible.

You started a religious discussion and I gave you a religious answer. No I am not a fool because I choose to have faith and believe in a God named Jesus. Who can really be the fool? I believe something, you dont. I believe in someone who's all powerful and you dont. What makes you think your right and so justified. When someone asked a religious questions I give them a religions answer if Its about the Bible. And if someone is trying to promote false Christian doctrine then I call them out and prove how they're wrong.





Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'd like to see some evidence of the existance of the Lake of Fire, and it's effects on intangible spirits. And really, this whole "It's going to be solved in the afterlife/future" ordeal behind religion is pretty piss-poor excuse for God not giving a shit right now. If this life doesn't matter, why have moral laws?

I cant prove anything to you. You cant prove anything to me. Both of our viewpoints rely on some kind of faith somewhere down the line.


Originally posted by Janus Marius
God should ideally save ALL the children, from themselves and from harm and suffering if he is indeed ALL GOOD. He does not. Therefore, he is not. Period.

Why cant this get threw your thin skull?! God has given everyone free will to do as they please. Just read how stupid you sound. You want someone to come and make you love him and make you a believer and carry you to heaven without any effort on your part. God paid the price and SAVED you at Calvary. He's done all that he needed to do. Its up to the unbeliever to do the rest and respond to the truth that has been presented to him.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
For the record, I don't like you because of how you've treated others in the past as a hypocrite and a judgmental *******, and you really didn't endear yourself to me by saying:

As i've said in the past you dont have an understanding of what its mean to be judgemental. I merely tell people who have biblical questions what my Bible says on the matter. And if its not Christian based but a religious question at best, I give them an answer to there question whatever it may be.

Arachnoidfreak
"Yes, my people, you have free will and can make choices! However, you must love me! If you chose not to, I'll torture you forever and ever!"

Doesn't sound like much of a choice, does it?

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Punker69
Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.

If God truly valued freedom of will, then he would not mind if people made bad choices or decided to oh... not believe in him and murder eighty people. However, according to the scriptures that you parrot mindlessly, God does NOT value free will; he values that people obey HIS commands. Since this is the cas, the idea of GIVING people free will in the first place is contradictory to God's desires, since he wants them all to obey him. At this point, you'll argue that having free will is instrinsically good; I ask how? Next you'll say that God can't make people obey him. I'll ask you; is he all powerful? Why would he refrain if his ultimate goal was all people following his orders? Isn't that the end goal of Christianity? Obediance to God? Faith in God? If he desires these things, and he has the ability to bring them about, it makes no sense that he would NOT have them.

And back to the argument I first presented, if his goal was GOOD, and not just obediance or some nebulous illusion of free will, he would save that child from the water every single time.



I found a good deal of the book boring. It's not cohesive. It reads poorly. Some of the major stories have serious problems. And I don't get rivited reading something I know is not only fiction, but poorly conceived fiction.



You are MISSING. THE. POINT. This isn't a Christian question- it's a very generic and general one. You come back at it with convuluted doctrine, and that isn't answering the question; it's making for more questions and inconsistancies. What I've presented is a moral dillemma on the part of God, since evil is allowed to exist. He also allows choice to exist, which can allow for evil. So we're right back to square one: God allows evil to exist. He cannot be all-good.



And if this were really true, you would not be questioning my stance because it is based on faith. However, my stance is not based on faith; it's based on reason. And faith handles reason about as well as ten year olds handle forest fires. Do yourself a favor- read the argument I've presented. Clear your mind of bias and subjective faith, and examine the variables in the argument. Then take a stab at it. Coming right back at me with "omg... u r teh ignorant!!! teh bibble sez" does not prove anything more than your own blind attachment to a little book.



"Just read how stupid you sound"? Yeah, way to be intelligent and open-minded, Punker. I could say the same about you, only it'd be accurate.

And if all God has to do is sacrifice his son and everyone has to just believe, that's a pretty damn lazy God. Doesn't even have the decency to actively take part in everyone's life. Let me put it this way: if the objective was to make say, a girl notice you, would you remain invisible and hope she buys your book? Please. Don't be ridiculous. This "God's hands off" approach doesn't hold up to common sense.



Yes, cuz you are the end all, aren't you? No, you're not. Stfu. You have no authority to tell other people what they know or don't know when you yourself are blind to the truth.

Captain Falcon
Originally posted by Punker69
Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.



Its not unheard of. But I am interested to know why exactly you found Revelations to be a boring read when so many find it to be the most fascinating in the Bible.

You started a religious discussion and I gave you a religious answer. No I am not a fool because I choose to have faith and believe in a God named Jesus. Who can really be the fool? I believe something, you dont. I believe in someone who's all powerful and you dont. What makes you think your right and so justified. When someone asked a religious questions I give them a religions answer if Its about the Bible. And if someone is trying to promote false Christian doctrine then I call them out and prove how they're wrong.







I cant prove anything to you. You cant prove anything to me. Both of our viewpoints rely on some kind of faith somewhere down the line.




Why cant this get threw your thin skull?! God has given everyone free will to do as they please. Just read how stupid you sound. You want someone to come and make you love him and make you a believer and carry you to heaven without any effort on your part. God paid the price and SAVED you at Calvary. He's done all that he needed to do. Its up to the unbeliever to do the rest and respond to the truth that has been presented to him.



As i've said in the past you dont have an understanding of what its mean to be judgemental. I merely tell people who have biblical questions what my Bible says on the matter. And if its not Christian based but a religious question at best, I give them an answer to there question whatever it may be. this is coming from the person who believes the bible is the one true book and everything else is evil and wrong. laughing

Janus Marius
Here, Royal Guard. Since you're asking a lot of questions, I figured you might want to have a go at this one.

peejayd
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

* okay... i got your point...

* but let me ask you, regarding your argument... do you really believe that death here on earth is a bad thing? and do you believe that is life after death?

* these questions are very important for me to figure out how to answer your argument logically and at the same time Biblically... wink

Lord Urizen
Is it possible that God created us by dissipating himself?

Could we all be minor manifestations of the force that is God?

Check out Quantam Physics studies, this shit is AMAZING...and it sort of supports this idea.


I don't beleive that God could be ALL good or ALL Bad....i hardly beleive in a God.

There's no way we can overpower this so called "omnipotent" God by taking the world as our own and having him just WATCH.....and a God who is all good would not just WATCH evil happen, he would do something about it.

There are people who pray to prevent horrible things, and those prayers are often unanswered.

"Ah...But it was the Will of God for this to occur"

So where does Free Will fit into all this?

I thought he gave us free will, and cannot interfere in the lives of the people.

Religious beleifs contradict themselves.

meep-meep
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

You would be a selfish and lazy m-f-er if you didn't try to save that ignorant child. And then if you said it was their own fault becuase you warned them i'd give you the benefit of the doubt of being dizzy and delusional from laying on the beach for too long without drinking water. GOD on the other hand shouldn't need water so HE doesn't have any excuse.

Aureck Pon
according to many religions- including my own- god created EVERYTHING. if you create something it becomes your responsibility. like a child, right? well god created the world wich means he created evil. if we doe evil things wich we are tempted to do before we die we might forever rot in hell constantly burning wishing for death to come but it never does, where as god killed every single person who has died in a way by dooming us with uneternal life. he also flooded the whole earth and tons of innocent babies and children died in horror screaming for life and not knowing why this was happening to them. then noah who had sinned before was the only one besides his family who got to live. on the other hand every bit of joy in our lifes also came form god...

Alliance
There is a god called Abraxas, which is a Christian type god/devil in one being...its quite a fascinating concept really.

Soleran
Since in God is omni(all) that would mean God is evil as well as good, or maybe not the direct representation of evil but still a part of it!

debbiejo
I believe that IT is both...

Aureck Pon
interesting but i was talking about the christian god. whom do ye beleveth in o good sir?(directed at alliance)

debbiejo
Originally posted by Aureck Pon
interesting but i was talking about the christian god. whom do ye beleveth in o good sir?(directed at alliance) The Christian god is based on older myths and "It is only good"....Sooooo the evil it does is actually good....that's right...it's good. confused

Aureck Pon
i think god is PARTIALLY metaphorical because nothing can be literally allpowerful and allknowing. i think he might be very powerful but no way is he all-out 100% every aspect.

Soleran
Originally posted by debbiejo
The Christian god is based on older myths and "It is only good"....Sooooo the evil it does is actually good....that's right...it's good. confused

So it's true then Evil is Good!

Alliance
Maybe its a distiction without a difference.

Aureck Pon
Originally posted by debbiejo
The Christian god is based on older myths and "It is only good"....Sooooo the evil it does is actually good....that's right...it's good. confused did you honestly just say that god can do evil and without any base call it good?

Alliance
Originally posted by Alliance
Maybe its a distiction without a difference.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Aureck Pon
did you honestly just say that god can do evil and without any base call it good? During wars god said to kill women and children.....So did god say for them to do an evil thing? If god is good, then it must be a good thing.

Alliance
I saw war...children are iffier....but "the women of this land learned long ago that those without swords can still die upon them"

Combat training should be as important for women as it is for men.

I have a feeling that nationalism will rub off on the principle in time and we'll see more sexual egaltarianism in the army and less of theis chivalric "dont kill the women" crap.

debbiejo
I prefer seduction with a little poison...eat

Lord Urizen

Alliance
Originally posted by debbiejo
I prefer seduction with a little poison...eat

Why are you trying to kill everyone today?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
Why are you trying to kill everyone today? Cause I'm in a good mood..jump

I know how to make poison too OR a lethal salad...

Alliance
As long as it has a raspberry vinagerette...

debbiejo
My neighbor is a fireman.....He told me how to make many wonderful poisons..........He shouldn't of told me..... angel

Alliance
Fireman. Apocethary. Not related.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
Fireman. Apocethary. Not related. Sure it is...They must know what to look for when going into home labs....

Alliance
...?

debbiejo
You know...A fireman doesn't want to walk into a toxic spore ridden place without knowing. It's part of their training.......lol

Alliance
Its called respirators, and a poision isn't going to be an issue, because all the ones that you were referencing were edible poisons.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
...?

I assume she means that in the event of a fire (or simply a house raid) the type of fireman that has to deal with toxic materials and potential chemcial hazards has to know what to loom for, know what is going on. A blue goo bubling on a bunsun burner is something - they would know what.

Thus they must know what they are looking for when they enter a house, or what they are looking at.

Alliance
Still...

1. Doesn't rationalize why she would know how to make it.

I think her fireman neighbor is an evil Kenyan witch doctor.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
Its called respirators, and a poision isn't going to be an issue, because all the ones that you were referencing were edible poisons. Well I was talking about 2 separate kinds of poisons. One plant based....Salad... The other could be spores, and such as Imperial stated...bio hazards.Because this is what we do for fun in Michigan....Some of that stuff is quite easy.

BTW we only talk about it.........we don't MAKE it......lol

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by debbiejo
BTW we only talk about it.........we don't MAKE it......lol

Sure you don't.

Personally I was always fascinated by the ancient poisoners art, from "mushrooms" up. Amazing some of the types of toadstools that look remarkably similar to edible mushrooms.

One can almost see how Agrippina might have poisoned a path for Nero to the throne.

debbiejo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake_(plant)

It's funny how even in the Bible they used Mandrake to drink as a drug to get one under ones influence.....It was called the Love Plant

Alliance
THats in Harry Potter!!!!!!1111lolzomg!

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
THats in Harry Potter!!!!!!1111lolzomg!

There is also a lot of broken Latin and appropriated mythology in it as well. But I can accept that.

Alliance
Indeed. often blatant references...like Professor Lupin.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
Indeed. often blatant references...like Professor Lupin.

Exactly.

Alliance
Exactly.

Imperial_Samura
Totalis Agreeius!

Alliance
Yes..but your latin sucks.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes..but your latin sucks.

Well so does a great deal of the Latin used to make up Harry Potter's spells. I think my spell above could easily fit into the Potter-verse.

Alliance
Well, then we must be thankful that Harry Potter is only teaching our children ot be devil worshippers and not Latin speakers.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
Well, then we must be thankful that Harry Potter is only teaching our children ot be devil worshippers and not Latin speakers.

True, true. I learnt how to summon my first demon with the help of Harry. Now I'm a level 8 cleric the world is my oyster.

Alliance
Harry summoned me...or was that Ged.

Regret
Ged... but then he could only have done that if he knew your true name wink

Alliance
Maybe he does.

But I'm not a fool. He let that woman publish his.

Regret
Yes, but they screwed it up when they put it into movie at least wink

Alliance
Yeah. And Ged wasn't black.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
THats in Harry Potter!!!!!!1111lolzomg! Then it must be evil........ wink

Alliance
I actually overheard two old women b*tching about its devilry in the grocery store. I swear they though Rowling was the antichrist.

Needless to say...I found it very hard to contain my laughter.

debbiejo
Actually I do know people who have picketed libraries to get it off the shelves and write schools since they are using the books as part of the reading program.........

Alliance
Yes...the Nazis do that with most books.

debbiejo
Mind shapers.........

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.
gods gives us the capability to make our own decisions. free will......thats why when s serial killer goes on a rampage, god does not step in, the killer is making his or her own decision. they are sealing their own fate, lest they be saved.

debbiejo
According to the Bible the serial killer has the same fate as one with just thinking about lust........though one sure seems to be quite a bit worse...

Alliance
just a little bit.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>