Marka Ragnos

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zod360
Just post here any evidence that supports Ragnos being the strongest force user ever.

Blaxican_Jedi
ok Numan, here is what everyone is going to say, besides bash on you for no reason. Marka ragnos must have been very powrful in the force to rule the sith for so long and not get challenged by his underlings like Naga Shadow. No one had any real evidence.

docb77
based on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marka_Ragnos

I don't know why everyone thinks Ragnos is so powerful. Granted I haven't actually read Tales, But it sounds as if he were more of a master manipulator, like Sidious, but without the Jedi as enemies.

Illustrious
Originally posted by docb77
based on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marka_Ragnos

I don't know why everyone thinks Ragnos is so powerful. Granted I haven't actually read Tales, But it sounds as if he were more of a master manipulator, like Sidious, but without the Jedi as enemies.

Where does it say he sounds like a master manipulator?

Does the narrator describing him as "the most powerful of the most powerful" imply that he is a manipulator?

Does the narrator saying that he "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist" imply he manipulated? No, manipulators manuever, they do not rule with iron fists when there are other threats looming.

Does other individuals saying he had "immense strength and a frightening grasp of the dark side" indicate that he is a manipulator? No, look up the word "immense."

It was clear that he was powerful enough that Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were not real threats, as they didn't even bother to attack him on his deathbed.

Yes, he was a master manipulator because Numan "I break COPPA rules" thinks so. Clearly we should all drop the case already!

Tell me, what evidence do you have for being a master manipulator?

Even your beloved wikipedia source says:



Yes, a "champion warrior" sure is only a manipulator, right?

Honestly, reading comprehension is your friend.

docb77
Read more closely, it also says that He stayed in power by pitting his opponents against each other, I didn't imply that he wasn't powerful, I just don't see where people are getting that he was the most powerful ever. If you know where I could get a TOTJ graphic novel to see for myself, I'd appreciate it.

Illustrious
Originally posted by docb77
Read more closely, it also says that He stayed in power by pitting his opponents against each other, I didn't imply that he wasn't powerful, I just don't see where people are getting that he was the most powerful ever. If you know where I could get a TOTJ graphic novel to see for myself, I'd appreciate it.

No, I guess "the most powerful of the most powerful" is just there for show.

He is also mentioned to have pitted his enemies against himself. As long as they did not attack the Republic, he achieved his goal. And I still don't get where you imply that manipulator and powerful are mutually exclusive. So I guess champion warrior, immense strength, ruling with an iron fist, and the most powerful of the most powerful really don't mean anything. He's just a manipulator after all, apparently even the narrator was manipulated.

Besides, using wikipedia as your primary source is arguing out of ignorance and talking out of your ass.

docb77
Originally posted by Illustrious
No, I guess "the most powerful of the most powerful" is just there for show.

He is also mentioned to have pitted his enemies against himself. As long as they did not attack the Republic, he achieved his goal. And I still don't get where you imply that manipulator and powerful are mutually exclusive. So I guess champion warrior, immense strength, ruling with an iron fist, and the most powerful of the most powerful really don't mean anything. He's just a manipulator after all, apparently even the narrator was manipulated.

Besides, using wikipedia as your primary source is arguing out of ignorance and talking out of your ass.

Look, I never said that they were exclusive, I agree that he must have been powerful, it's the most powerful ever that I question.

next, where are you reading "the most powerful of the most powerful"? The closest I see is where it says what Ragnos might mean - "ruling powers". If it's coming from somewhere else could you provide a source?

Illustrious
Originally posted by docb77
Look, I never said that they were exclusive, I agree that he must have been powerful, it's the most powerful ever that I question.

next, where are you reading "the most powerful of the most powerful"? The closest I see is where it says what Ragnos might mean - "ruling powers". If it's coming from somewhere else could you provide a source?

It's on the cover of the Golden Age of the Sith graphic novel as the author synopsis.

"Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful."

That's pretty conclusive.

Considering that means he is at least significantly more powerful than guys like Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, who are described and shown in later sources to be godlike in power, certainly speaks to his credit.

docb77
Are these other guys "godlike" powers in TOTJ also. Man I've got to find some old graphic novels. Then again, I'm not crazy about making force users in general godlike, I kind of like the movies power level.

Gamblor
Yeah, Anderson was high or something.

I mean, blowing up stars with the dark side? wtf?

((The_Anomaly))
Agreed

Tangible God
Anomaly, after reading some two months worth of your posts, you're starting to turn me against EU. Damn it.

Wesker
I don't see how TOTJ is somehow less agreeable than DE or NJO.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Wesker
I don't see how TOTJ is somehow less agreeable than DE or NJO.

Same, or DN for that matter. Actually I find TOTJ more agreeable than post-NJO characters. At least the majority of individuals are normal, with the elite standing above them because of circumstance. Post-NJO basically has about 501980310931 extraordinary situations that just simply isn't believable at all, even for SW.

zod360
Quotes aren't really concrete evidence for Ragnos being as powerful as you make him out to be. For instance Uthar Wynn stated that Naga Sadow was the most powerful of all of the ancient sith.

w00t2112
Except Numan, its clear that you prefer Post ROTJ Characters so honestly your opinion doesnt count. Adding to that, Ragnos's Scepter is a symbolism of his power, as Kun's amulet was a symbol of Sadow's power.

Consider also it took PLANETS worth of the force to have a CHANCE of reviving Marka Ragnos, it implies great force potential, and an enormous power.

Numan, its clear what you see as proof is a battle of feat wars, the person with the most feats win. The typical reasoning of a 10 year old.

Illustrious
Originally posted by zod360
Quotes aren't really concrete evidence for Ragnos being as powerful as you make him out to be. For instance Uthar Wynn stated that Naga Sadow was the most powerful of all of the ancient sith.

It's not a quote. It's the narrator telling you this.

Read the comics before you talk out of your ass. Do you want to argue that Yoda is blue now?

docb77
lol, a blue yoda would rock! much better than that brown copy we had in Kotor

zod360
Originally posted by w00t2112
Except Numan, its clear that you prefer Post ROTJ Characters so honestly your opinion doesnt count. Adding to that, Ragnos's Scepter is a symbolism of his power, as Kun's amulet was a symbol of Sadow's power.

Consider also it took PLANETS worth of the force to have a CHANCE of reviving Marka Ragnos, it implies great force potential, and an enormous power.

Numan, its clear what you see as proof is a battle of feat wars, the person with the most feats win. The typical reasoning of a 10 year old.

Listen dude, I am in no way a fan of anything post ROTJ. I have said many times that my favorite time preiods are KOTOR and KOTOR2, the PT times and Darth Bane's times. I am also quite interested in the comics about Kun, Sunrider and Quel-Droma. And Ragnos and Sadow did not have to neccesarily be that strong in the force to create those artifacts, and it is more likely to assume that they were great alchemists because of those artifacts. And to add to your second point, it was not because of the fact that Ragnos had once been so strong in the force that it took the force power of dozens of planets, but because the revival of ANYONE is a very complex thing and Tavion was not particularly strong in the force herself.

Wesker
Originally posted by Illustrious
Same, or DN for that matter. Actually I find TOTJ more agreeable than post-NJO characters. At least the majority of individuals are normal, with the elite standing above them because of circumstance. Post-NJO basically has about 501980310931 extraordinary situations that just simply isn't believable at all, even for SW.

Definately. At least the Sith had lots of conflict, competition, and centuries to perfect their mastery of the force to dominate others. NJO "We inherited the Jedi title after the last one died" wannabes shouldn't be nearly as powerful.

Gamblor
I also like how TOTJ covered up their own bullshit by making this incredible knowledge lost over time though various wars and conflicts, conveniently making it unavailable to any future generations.

Darth_Glentract
The NJO guys had the Kaiburr crystal is the only excuse the writers for that time period really have and it's not much. Personally I find both the post-ROTJ guys to be overpowered and the Ancient Sith to be overpowered.

docb77
when did Splinter become "in continuity"? I thought the kaiburr was just part of that story, but not part of the larger SW universe.

Fishy
Originally posted by Gamblor
I also like how TOTJ covered up their own bullshit by making this incredible knowledge lost over time though various wars and conflicts, conveniently making it unavailable to any future generations.

Thats not really true, most Jedi survived the war, so most of the knowledge they had would remain. Kun only took a small bit of knowledge from Osus we see other Jedi take far more then that. After ROTJ Luke enters a library from Osus its time that still stands with more knowledge in it then Kun took from it (which was already more then he could learn in a life time) Its very unlikely that the Jedi never went back to Osus to look for remains of knowledge on the planet.

It wasn't until 40 years after Osus, just after the Jedi Civil war that most of the knowledge got lost, with the Jedi Order almost completely destroyed.

Gamblor
A shitload of Ancient Sith "dark alchemy", or "sith magics" (whatever the hell they call it) was lost during the Hyperspace war.

Fishy
Well yeah thats true, after the Great Hyperspace war there was a huge loss of knowledge and power, but that was on the Sith side. The entire Sith dissapeared after the Hyperspace war, just remnants of their society remained. The Jedi didn't suffer that much though.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Gamblor
A shitload of Ancient Sith "dark alchemy", or "sith magics" (whatever the hell they call it) was lost during the Hyperspace war.

Well if there weren't Sith to practice it, you'd think it wouldn't be lost?

Oh wait, of course not. We still have all the knowledge, information, and artifacts on the Ancient Egyptians and Babylonians. Let's use some common sense here.

Gamblor
No, but we have far superior knowledge, information, and artifacts to the Babylonians and Egyptians. It's not the fact that they lost this super power that's demented, it's the fact that their power was super in the first place.

Really, the "massive powers of the Ancients" is a lame sci-fi/fantasy cliche I'd like to see mostly demolished.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Gamblor
No, but we have far superior knowledge, information, and artifacts to the Babylonians and Egyptians. It's not the fact that they lost this super power that's demented, it's the fact that their power was super in the first place.

Really, the "massive powers of the Ancients" is a lame sci-fi/fantasy cliche I'd like to see mostly demolished.

Not really. After the Roman Empire collapsed, you saw a large recession in the arts and learning. And this is without taking into account things such as "the force" and "magic."

Obviously if you eliminate the practitioners of those superpowers, the power would no longer be there. And you see a movement away from force, saber-to-saber fighting, and a heavier emphasis on technology. That's hardly difficult to believe. I doubt many people today would be able to outfight a samurai or a Spartan, for example.

Gamblor
Not really. After the Roman Empire collapsed, you saw a large recession in the arts and learning.

Dark Ages, yep. But slowly but surely that knowledge was regained and improved.

Obviously if you eliminate the practitioners of those superpowers, the power would no longer be there. And you see a movement away from force, saber-to-saber fighting, and a heavier emphasis on technology. That's hardly difficult to believe. I doubt many people today would be able to outfight a samurai or a Spartan, for example.

Of course, the Great Hyperspace War was a good way to kill off the information, I just find it odd how these Ancient Sith managed to develop this incredible power from scratch. Ajunta Pal did teach them to master the force most likely, but going from there to playing ping ping with stars seems like a stretch.

zephiel7
Sadow and Kressh were too wussy to even touch him.

He had sith magic infused sword (at least as powerful as a lightsaber) and a rod that can apparently drain planets (not sure of this)

He reduced Simus, a Sith Lord of repute into nothing more than a head.

He ruled the galaxy with an iron fist to the end of his natural life; no other Sith Lord could duplicate this.

He could disintegrate planets by staring at them (j/k)

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
Listen dude, I am in no way a fan of anything post ROTJ. I have said many times that my favorite time preiods are KOTOR and KOTOR2, the PT times and Darth Bane's times. I am also quite interested in the comics about Kun, Sunrider and Quel-Droma. And Ragnos and Sadow did not have to neccesarily be that strong in the force to create those artifacts, and it is more likely to assume that they were great alchemists because of those artifacts. And to add to your second point, it was not because of the fact that Ragnos had once been so strong in the force that it took the force power of dozens of planets, but because the revival of ANYONE is a very complex thing and Tavion was not particularly strong in the force herself.

Yes, tavion a pure weakling, still caused JA Luke (after de) a huge amount of trouble, with the scepter's power, she empowered non force users, with the force. Anyone? except DE Sidious, didnt require half as much.

For you to believe someone is powerful, you want an excessive amount of feats, in other words, you argue purely on feat wars. Ragnos is proclaimed the most powerful of the most powerful, his power is not quantified.

Btw, why are you still here?

zod360
Can you please explain how I argue completely on feat wars? Can you also explain how feat wars are necessarily a bad thing? And don't say because Janus and IKC said do.

Wesker
Feat Wars is my term, so the best definition comes from me.

Feat Wars is an instance in debating where one party or more is using feats (Specifically, accomplishments and prestige- whether related or not) without substantiating the relevance nor giving similar or more credit to comparable feats by the opposing party.

In other words, it's "Anakin is the Chosen One, he blew up a droid ship at age ten, he beat count Dooku, fought in the Clone Wars, lasted twenty seconds with Dooku, wined and dined Padme, and wore brown! He can pwn Ludo Kressh!" a thousand times over again.

A- Why does Anakin win?

B- *Laundry list of feats, including how tall the guy was, etc.*

A- Okay. *Dissects them all. Most don't even make sense and the rest don't even compare on further scrunity*

B- Oh yeah? *Argue semantics. Look up Ten Fanboy Commandments for future debating help*

That's it in a nutshell. I'm sure you've seen it before... Like, every time you type.

Darth_Glentract
Janus, you aren't the first person to use the term "feat wars", so you should probably stop saying that it's your term.

Wesker
Actually, I was. On you.

Darth_Glentract
No, you weren't. I've heard it in places other then KMC a long time ago.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
Listen dude, I am in no way a fan of anything post ROTJ. I have said many times that my favorite time preiods are KOTOR and KOTOR2, the PT times and Darth Bane's times. I am also quite interested in the comics about Kun, Sunrider and Quel-Droma. And Ragnos and Sadow did not have to neccesarily be that strong in the force to create those artifacts, and it is more likely to assume that they were great alchemists because of those artifacts. And to add to your second point, it was not because of the fact that Ragnos had once been so strong in the force that it took the force power of dozens of planets, but because the revival of ANYONE is a very complex thing and Tavion was not particularly strong in the force herself.

Reading Wikipedia, states Ragnos was a champion warrior and posseses surpassing knowledge in the dark side of the force. However, that didn't seem to be the case, for Nadd, the Sith Magic could easily do it, and Ragnos who possesed such knowledge, could have done the very same thing, the most probably reasoning is that Ragnos required a huge amount of force power.

Ragnos is never described as a alchemist, the best known alchemist is Lord Simus, adding to the fact, that amulets that Kun used, which almost destroyed him, were common amongst the Sith, Sadow Kressh and Ragnos are the most powerful of the most powerful, with Ragnos as the best.

Like i said, to feeed a 10 year old like you, you need endless amounts of feats, and not common logic, learn to understand that feats do not mean everything.

zod360
You seriously are full of crap aren't you? There are plenty more people here who use feat wars more then I do. people arguing for Ragnos use feats wars. I don't.

w00t2112
Indeed, but you absoletely need, concrete evidence to decide something, its as though seeing is believing, so by saying feats, i meant feats that depict someone destroyed something or controlling and etc.

Might i ask why you think Ragnos is as weak as you perceive? Honestly diplomacy and friendship was non existent within the Ancient Sith, in every aspect the Sith are the complete counterpart of the Jedi.

The Ancient Sith respected pure power and brute strength, they see the strongest should rule, and in the own interests, when they can they immediately overthrow the current Dark Lord, Ragnos, living in a time period of Star throwings and superb duelist, was able to keep rule until his dying breath.

At any point, Sadow and/or Kressh would've taken an oppurtunity to overthrow Ragnos, yet they recognised their powers weaker, with Simus, Sadow's Master and mentor, being curbstomped by Ragnos.

And for your long belief of Ragnos being only respected for intelligence and a political leader, that is utter bullshit, the Sith consider diplomacy trash, only Sidious recognised its true importance, however the Sith prior to him, thought of only power and strength, and that to them was the path to victory. Ragnos held no different view, he was described to have turned his enemies on others, including himself, as well as a champion warrior with a surpassing and frightening grasp on the Dark side.

By all that everyone knows and have said about Ragnos, he is the strongest of the most powerful force users ever. Its unlikely any Force User except for Nihilus has even the slightest chance against him.

zod360
Originally posted by w00t2112
Indeed, but you absoletely need, concrete evidence to decide something, its as though seeing is believing, so by saying feats, i meant feats that depict someone destroyed something or controlling and etc.

Might i ask why you think Ragnos is as weak as you perceive? Honestly diplomacy and friendship was non existent within the Ancient Sith, in every aspect the Sith are the complete counterpart of the Jedi.

The Ancient Sith respected pure power and brute strength, they see the strongest should rule, and in the own interests, when they can they immediately overthrow the current Dark Lord, Ragnos, living in a time period of Star throwings and superb duelist, was able to keep rule until his dying breath.

At any point, Sadow and/or Kressh would've taken an oppurtunity to overthrow Ragnos, yet they recognised their powers weaker, with Simus, Sadow's Master and mentor, being curbstomped by Ragnos.

And for your long belief of Ragnos being only respected for intelligence and a political leader, that is utter bullshit, the Sith consider diplomacy trash, only Sidious recognised its true importance, however the Sith prior to him, thought of only power and strength, and that to them was the path to victory. Ragnos held no different view, he was described to have turned his enemies on others, including himself, as well as a champion warrior with a surpassing and frightening grasp on the Dark side.

By all that everyone knows and have said about Ragnos, he is the strongest of the most powerful force users ever. Its unlikely any Force User except for Nihilus has even the slightest chance against him.

That's not true. I always use logical deduction myself and do not need direct concrete proof. The fact is I do not agree with the "Logical" deduction used for Ragnos' and believe that there is not enough material to say that he is the most powerful of the most powerful and believe there are many greater then him such as Sadow and many lightsaber wielders. I have said before that when in 1 on 1 battles, it almost always ends up as a melee duel. This is shown through Kressh's and Sadow's duel, and it it very logical to assume that Ragnos defeated Simus in a swordfight and cut off his head. I believe that someone like Ragnos would be ideal for Yoda for example. If it were to go a melee duel, he would be able to use his size and speed against Ragnos for instance and I don't think Ragnos would even be able to get anywhere near him.

Wesker
I love how you claim to use logic, but you don't even know the meaning of the word.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
That's not true. I always use logical deduction myself and do not need direct concrete proof. The fact is I do not agree with the "Logical" deduction used for Ragnos' and believe that there is not enough material to say that he is the most powerful of the most powerful and believe there are many greater then him such as Sadow and many lightsaber wielders. I have said before that when in 1 on 1 battles, it almost always ends up as a melee duel. This is shown through Kressh's and Sadow's duel, and it it very logical to assume that Ragnos defeated Simus in a swordfight and cut off his head. I believe that someone like Ragnos would be ideal for Yoda for example. If it were to go a melee duel, he would be able to use his size and speed against Ragnos for instance and I don't think Ragnos would even be able to get anywhere near him.

Your belief is wrong, if Sadow was superior to him, why did he not kill him? If Kressh was superior to him, why did he not kill him? Indeed, but yoda, is an ant to Ragnos, someone that Ragnos would crush with the force, and typically, one on one are usually fought between Jedi/Sith that are equal, as far as we know, Ragnos had none, Sadow and Kressh, were never described as a "champion warrior with a surpassing knowledge in the dark side" Every single sith/jedi of their time are described as such, with Ragnos reigning and being the most powerful, of the most powerful era, notice that Revan and Kun were also described as immense in power, because they were infact the greatest of their respective times.

However, whilst i've given reasons, you have stated your opinion without any proof whatsoever, your logic is simply giving your opinion, which to the general public is not logic, but a biased comment.

zod360
It is not logical to assume that Kressh and Sadow didn't kill him or challenge him only because they were terrified of him and therefor less powerful. I only use logic when talking about this. If Ragnos was so elite, then why did Simus challenge him? It is easy to tell from Kressh's character in the golden age of the sith that he did not even care about power that much, and only cared about what was best for the sith empire. They might have thought of him the best military leader for example, and that could have been why nobody ever challenged him. This is just one explanation of many that goes against anything that shows Ragnos was superior.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
It is not logical to assume that Kressh and Sadow didn't kill him or challenge him only because they were terrified of him and therefor less powerful. I only use logic when talking about this. If Ragnos was so elite, then why did Simus challenge him? It is easy to tell from Kressh's character in the golden age of the sith that he did not even care about power that much, and only cared about what was best for the sith empire. They might have thought of him the best military leader for example, and that could have been why nobody ever challenged him. This is just one explanation of many that goes against anything that shows Ragnos was superior.

Kressh didn't want power, he was challenging Sadow for it, yes Ragnos someone who fought no wars outside of any Sith, a great military leader, what a logical assumption, the Sith dont have unity, you have not proved that the Sith respect it, "It is easy to tell" That is pure speculation you have formed in your mind. Numan, get it straight, from examples shown throughout the Sith history, only the strongest rule, when one weaken, his/her apprentice usurps the role of Dark Lord of the Sith. You only use logic? Where is your logic, you have given nothing but speculation and pure assumption, that is not logic, that is purely your biased opinion. In your entire posts, you have not provided a shred of evidence going against Ragnos being the Strongest ever.

"It is not logic to assume Kressh and Sadow didn't kill him or challenge him because they were terrified of him"
Except no other Dark Lord has ever died of natural causes, except that a Ragnos on his death bed, still stirred no movement in Sadow or Kressh. Sadow and Kressh, both pure bloods hated Ragnos, they neither respected him nor looked up to him, they only feared and respected his FORCE POWERS and PHYSICAL STRENGTH.

" They might have thought him the best military leader "
Notice how you say might, the possiblity of that is 0, if you understand SW then you understand the Sith only let the strongest Rule "

"Why did Simus Challenge him "
Why wouldn't he? Perhaps he thought he could usurp the title and take control of the Sith Empire, remember none of the Sith agreed with the fact that Ragnos was a half bred, made him even less popular. It was with his iron fist that he ruled the Sith

"That's just one explanation of many going against Ragnos being superior"
Except all you have shown is purely your illogical opinion and speculation. You have provided no proof, no evidence to deny Ragnos being the strongest, note how you say many, unless you can state LOGICAL and RATIONAL proof, drop the case.

Btw you have not rebutted any of my earlier points.

docb77
From what I've read, in addition to being Powerful, Ragnos played his opponents off of each other. When would Sadow or Kresh go after Ragnos when they were too busy with each other. Ragnos must have made sure it was that way. This doesn't mean that Ragnos wasn't powerful, just that he was smart enough to avoid battles that he didn't need to fight. It also means that his power is not very quantifiable. He could have been lots more powerful than Sadow or just a little more, I gather that he didn't care because he could just get Sadow angry at someone else.

Fishy
Ragnos challenged and destroyed Simus, Simus did not challenge Ragnos. For as far as I know nobody ever challenged Ragnos in a 1 on 1 fight and lived to tell the tale, Simus lived because Ragnos probably thought he had his uses to the Sith and him in particulair.



And you won't... Don't wait for it, it will never happen.

w00t2112
Originally posted by docb77
From what I've read, in addition to being Powerful, Ragnos played his opponents off of each other. When would Sadow or Kresh go after Ragnos when they were too busy with each other. Ragnos must have made sure it was that way. This doesn't mean that Ragnos wasn't powerful, just that he was smart enough to avoid battles that he didn't need to fight. It also means that his power is not very quantifiable. He could have been lots more powerful than Sadow or just a little more, I gather that he didn't care because he could just get Sadow angry at someone else.

No, he pitted enemies against himself as well as others, because, his goal was to stop the Sith from attacking the Republic, and surely when a leader consistently pitts rivals against each other, theres a probability of both the rivals taking on Ragnos.

w00t2112
Thanks for the information on Simus Fishy, lol is Numan that shit?

w00t2112
Part I: A Golden Age
Time frame: 5,000 B.B.Y.
Period name: The Great Hyperspace War

It is a time of great expansion in the Old Republic. The JEDI KNIGHTS continue to shine a light of hope into the dark unexplored areas of the galaxy, and the mapping of hyperspace is encouraged and trade routes are discovered; many by intrepid explorers like plucky siblings GAV and JORI DARAGON, who plot uncharted courses in their ship Starbreaker 12. Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS. The ruler's death leads to a power vacuum, and two leaders emerge at Ragnos' grave on the mausoleum planet of Korriban. After a bloody duel, NAGA SADOW and LUDO KRESSH's fight for destiny is interrupted with the unannounced arrival of Starbreaker 12, and the hapless Daragons are captured immediately.

An extract from starwars.com, notice how they say the GREATEST DARK LORD OF THE SITH, and that his death lead to a power vacuum.

zod360
Greatest at the time.

Moff Tarkin
He's not the greatest Sith Lord, hell, he didn't even attack the Republic! He was freaking content with his own small Empire. Just because he's strong don't mean he's great.

Sidious is still the greatest ever IMO.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
Greatest at the time.

Except they never stated it was of HIS time, it simply States he is the Greatest Sith Lord in terms of Power

Sidious is the greatest by the fact he conquered the galaxy and not because he was stronger than Ragnos.

EDIT: Even then, it puts him above Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, with Sadow's power overshadowing any other known powers.

Moff Tarkin
Except for Kresh and Simus...

w00t2112
Yea, however Ragnos curbstomped Simus and Sadow stalemated Kressh.

Add to the fact Simus is likely to be stronger than Sadow...due to the fact Ragnos deemed him strong enough to be a threat. One of the reasons why Ragnos challenged him.

Illustrious
Originally posted by zod360
It is not logical to assume that Kressh and Sadow didn't kill him or challenge him only because they were terrified of him and therefor less powerful. I only use logic when talking about this. If Ragnos was so elite, then why did Simus challenge him? It is easy to tell from Kressh's character in the golden age of the sith that he did not even care about power that much, and only cared about what was best for the sith empire. They might have thought of him the best military leader for example, and that could have been why nobody ever challenged him. This is just one explanation of many that goes against anything that shows Ragnos was superior.

Yes, there is no evidence, except for the fact that the narrator says it implicitly. Look up those words if you are confused. If the narrator says Yoda is green, he's green.

You arguing that there's no evidence that Ragnos was stronger than Sadow is like arguing Yoda was really blue. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh even bowed to his spirit.

You're arguments are all rehashed bullshit. Good job being either an idiot or a troll.

Fishy
Originally posted by w00t2112
Except they never stated it was of HIS time, it simply States he is the Greatest Sith Lord in terms of Power

Sidious is the greatest by the fact he conquered the galaxy and not because he was stronger than Ragnos.

EDIT: Even then, it puts him above Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, with Sadow's power overshadowing any other known powers.

In the way its said in that, it does mean in his time.

Not like it matters, in his time is very clear and with what we see Sadow and Kressh do we know he's freaking powerful. It would only leave 2 possible people that would be able to beat him

Tulak Hord and Ajunta Pall, and i'm only saying those two because we know jack shit about them, so maybe they could become the uber shit but I doubt it. Pall might have a good chance though.

w00t2112
Agreed.

vpokdekjyafmidp
maybe ragnos was BFFL's with kressh and sadow

vpokdekjyafmidp
or maybe he was a weak ass short piece of shit, with some crazy ass body guards that did his dirty work (simus). we really dont know. im also in agreement with docb on this one

Illustrious
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
or maybe he was a weak ass short piece of shit, with some crazy ass body guards that did his dirty work (simus). we really dont know. im also in agreement with docb on this one

And Yoda is blue...

Do you even know who the narrator is?



Fishy, he was the Dark Lord of the Sith (emphasis TOTJ). Out of all the Dark Lords in the history of the Sith Empire, he was singular.

I'm not sure about your grasp of the English language, but when they use a term like "the," it refers to a singular sense -- that particular one. So when it says "the most powerful of the most powerful," there is not much room to argue. There are two definitives in that sentence. Even if you want to argue it was over the course of a certain time frame, it was still the golden age.

vpokdekjyafmidp
yeah, but that could mean power to manipulate his enemies like docb said

docb77
I hadn't actually thought of this when I posted before, but if you can completely control -throught the force or other means - your opponents it really doesn't matter if the other guy can blow up a star by thinking about it. Just because you won't let him. I gotta admit that even if that was what was happening Ragnos would be crazy powerful, but I have read that he was a great warrior too.

So while I still am hesitant about saying that he was the most powerful force user ever, there is a case to be made for it.

Illustrious
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
yeah, but that could mean power to manipulate his enemies like docb said

No it couldn't. Not only are you speculating on the meaning of powerful now, you're going outright against the narration and of various quotes in later sources which proclaim definitively Ragnos' power.

In fact, the only thing that is being thrown here is assumption, "welll Ragnos may have been a diplomat!!!11!"

No, I'd take the word of the narrator and various other quotes over the random speculation of "he must have been just a manipulator!"

docb77
Never said "just" a manipulator. That is one of the tricks in his bag however.

vpokdekjyafmidp
well, i would say we really dont know enough about him. im not saying to use feats. but in order to determine his power, we need a balance between both feats, and what people have said.

it would be great if star wars had a rating system for their characters like other comics do

Illustrious
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
well, i would say we really dont know enough about him. im not saying to use feats. but in order to determine his power, we need a balance between both feats, and what people have said.

it would be great if star wars had a rating system for their characters like other comics do

It's not "what people have said." It's what the narrator says. If the narrator says Yoda is Green, he is green. The narrator said he is (definitively) the most powerful of the most powerful. Arguing against what the narrator says is akin to arguing that Yoda is blue.

zod360
No Illustrious, saying that Ragnos is not the most powerful force user of all time and saying that Yoda is blue is not the same thing. We have 100% proof that Yoda is green, however the only real evidence for Ragnos is what the narrator of the comic said. His word is not law. The ancient sith only really had powers of huge scale destruction. It would be like giving a guy an atomic bomb to use in a cage fight. The sith magics seem to be very powerful in terms of huge scale attacks, and so by performing such acts (like blowing up stars), it does not saying anything about the power of the wielder and more about how destructive sith magics are. And seeing as how they would not really help in 1 on 1 battles, teh ancient sith don't really have anything.

Fishy
Originally posted by Illustrious
And Yoda is blue...

Do you even know who the narrator is?



Fishy, he was the Dark Lord of the Sith (emphasis TOTJ). Out of all the Dark Lords in the history of the Sith Empire, he was singular.

I'm not sure about your grasp of the English language, but when they use a term like "the," it refers to a singular sense -- that particular one. So when it says "the most powerful of the most powerful," there is not much room to argue. There are two definitives in that sentence. Even if you want to argue it was over the course of a certain time frame, it was still the golden age.

Well it doesn't say ever so it likely does refer to a certain time frame... That time frame.

And the golden age is the greatest age of the Empire not necessarily the age that brought forward the most powerful ever, just a lot of really damned uber powerful Sith with great knowledge, it doesn't mean that there never was anybody that could have been more powerful although there isn't any evidence for that. And I certainly don't think anybody ever was more powerful then Marka Ragnos, but I just said that both Pall and Tulak would have a chance because we know jack shit about them except for the fact that they were Dark Lord. Pall his spirit at least is still pretty damned impressive 21.000 years after his death... No other Spirit has ever managed to do that.

But again I am not claiming anybody is more powerful then Ragnos and I don't believe it, and I don't really feel like getting into another useless debate about this.

zod360
How do you really think Ragnos would even defeat someone like Yoda. He wouldn't be able to crush him with the force like you have already said. Think back to the book Shadow Hunter when Darsha Assant (I think that's her name) mentions that her master used to force throw boulders with ease, yet struggled to lift up pebbles. The sith magics were clearly able to amplify the FORCE POWER of the user to perform extremely distructive powers such as blowing up stars, but FORCE CONTROL is vital for performing destructive force powers in a small scale, and seeing as there is no evidence of the sith having great control over the force and no evidence that the sith magics amplifying that aspect of the force, I am inclined to believe that the ancient sith would be able to do anything special in a 1 on 1 battle. The fact that the most powerful sith magic that can be used in small fights was Kun's amulet kind of helps my point. It also explains why Naga Sadow resorted to a swordfight with Ludo Kressh when he wanted to be the dark lord. Yet when he was in his ship, he used his destructive sith magic.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
How do you really think Ragnos would even defeat someone like Yoda. He wouldn't be able to crush him with the force like you have already said. Think back to the book Shadow Hunter when Darsha Assant (I think that's her name) mentions that her master used to force throw boulders with ease, yet struggled to lift up pebbles. The sith magics were clearly able to amplify the FORCE POWER of the user to perform extremely distructive powers such as blowing up stars, but FORCE CONTROL is vital for performing destructive force powers in a small scale, and seeing as there is no evidence of the sith having great control over the force and no evidence that the sith magics amplifying that aspect of the force, I am inclined to believe that the ancient sith would be able to do anything special in a 1 on 1 battle. The fact that the most powerful sith magic that can be used in small fights was Kun's amulet kind of helps my point. It also explains why Naga Sadow resorted to a swordfight with Ludo Kressh when he wanted to be the dark lord. Yet when he was in his ship, he used his destructive sith magic.

What the? Do you have any prove for that first statement?

And that amulet in the hands of Kun who wasn't as old as experienced or as impresssive as Sadow that amulet was damned impressive, Sadow created the damned thing it would have been far more impressive in his hands. It would completely destroy Yoda...

and of course Sadow didn't use Sith magic against Kressh, Kressh wasn't weak it wouldn't have worked they needed to fight it out with a sword and with the force, in a 1 on 1 fight on small scale, thats the only way he could prove to be more powerful.

zod360
Originally posted by Fishy
What the? Do you have any prove for that first statement?

And that amulet in the hands of Kun who wasn't as old as experienced or as impresssive as Sadow that amulet was damned impressive, Sadow created the damned thing it would have been far more impressive in his hands. It would completely destroy Yoda...

and of course Sadow didn't use Sith magic against Kressh, Kressh wasn't weak it wouldn't have worked they needed to fight it out with a sword and with the force, in a 1 on 1 fight on small scale, thats the only way he could prove to be more powerful.

If so then how comes Kress was not able to defend against Sadow's use of the force in their space battle. And the first statement was really one I was not using in the debate.

Fishy
And I want to see prove for it.

And how come? Because there were other things going on, and how did Sadow use the force to destroy Kressh anyways? He send a ship to crash with Kressh his ship blowing them both up, thats what he did.

zod360
Did he not blow up a star with his lightning?

zod360
Well if it was to come down to a melee duel, tiny Yoda would be able to use his own size and Ragnos' size against Ragnos. He would be able to completely outduel him.

vpokdekjyafmidp
Originally posted by Illustrious
It's not "what people have said." It's what the narrator says. If the narrator says Yoda is Green, he is green. The narrator said he is (definitively) the most powerful of the most powerful. Arguing against what the narrator says is akin to arguing that Yoda is blue.

i know that statement was a little off. i mean "people" including the narrator, and things like kreia saying that tulak hord was the greatest duelist ever. and is the narrator even completely omniscent?

Fishy
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
i know that statement was a little off. i mean "people" including the narrator, and things like kreia saying that tulak hord was the greatest duelist ever. and is the narrator even completely omniscent?

Seeing as he created them, yes he is.

Although they sometimes do talk in hyperbole... But when they say something like that, it can be seen as 100% true.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
Well if it was to come down to a melee duel, tiny Yoda would be able to use his own size and Ragnos' size against Ragnos. He would be able to completely outduel him.

Logic in a sense, as Ragnos is likely a gigantic giant and Yoda a small furry animal, however its doubtful Yoda will even be able to hurt him, you remember i provided proof Ragnos was atleast the Strongest of HIS Time, which puts him far above the REST of the ANCIENT SITH.

Yoda's force ability is not even close to Sadow's and the amulet blasts that Kun used are proof that the Ancients were adept at both types of combat whether close or widespread destruction.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
No Illustrious, saying that Ragnos is not the most powerful force user of all time and saying that Yoda is blue is not the same thing. We have 100% proof that Yoda is green, however the only real evidence for Ragnos is what the narrator of the comic said. His word is not law. The ancient sith only really had powers of huge scale destruction. It would be like giving a guy an atomic bomb to use in a cage fight. The sith magics seem to be very powerful in terms of huge scale attacks, and so by performing such acts (like blowing up stars), it does not saying anything about the power of the wielder and more about how destructive sith magics are. And seeing as how they would not really help in 1 on 1 battles, teh ancient sith don't really have anything.

What are the Amulet Blasts? Kreia's instakill? Those attacks all originated from the Ancient Sith, meaning that the Ancient were adept at 1 on 1 fights. Hell, the PT Jedi had nothing more than force push, force pull, mind trick, lightning and grip, does that mean its all they can use? No, just as with the Ancient Sith, they are likely to know the techniques of the your average Dark Lord of the Sith such as Revan, however they never really engaged in a duel with an equal, there was only one example: Kressh and Sadow. And what of Ragnos's Scepter? Its clear that can be used in 1 on 1 combat, and its also likely it'll completely make a living thing deviod of the force.

vpokdekjyafmidp
i bet if sadow and kressh worked together, they could kick ragnos's ass but they were idiots. but then again, ragnos had the military force. if kressh or sadow flat out killed him, they would get no support from the military, therefore leaving the empire prone to attack. this can be compared to the roman empire. with marius, who had the military support. his apprentice sulla was looking to overthrow him, yet if he flat our killed him, everyone would hate him and he would get no support. first he had to gain the support of the military. he then proceeded to battle marius, and eventually defeated him. proving that he had the greater military mind, therefore earning the support of the military. in my mind this "kressh and sadow didnt kill him because they were afraid of him" stuff doesnt really go down in terms of personal power.

Illustrious
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
i bet if sadow and kressh worked together, they could kick ragnos's ass but they were idiots. but then again, ragnos had the military force. if kressh or sadow flat out killed him, they would get no support from the military, therefore leaving the empire prone to attack. this can be compared to the roman empire. with marius, who had the military support. his apprentice sulla was looking to overthrow him, yet if he flat our killed him, everyone would hate him and he would get no support. first he had to gain the support of the military. he then proceeded to battle marius, and eventually defeated him. proving that he had the greater military mind, therefore earning the support of the military. in my mind this "kressh and sadow didnt kill him because they were afraid of him" stuff doesnt really go down in terms of personal power.

What "military"?

Wow, stop talking out of your ass already. Argue from what you know, and stop flinging speculatory crap around with absolutely 0 proof.

vpokdekjyafmidp
just comparing two ancient empires. jeeze

except ones real, and ones not.

Illustrious
Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
just comparing two ancient empires. jeeze

except ones real, and ones not.

There didn't seem to be one centralized military. Each sith lord had their own forces and slaves.

Fishy
Yeah and Sadow controlled them all... So even if it was true it wouldn't make sense, because the military force would have loved Sadow and not Ragnos... Which makes it even stranger that he didn't rebell, Sadow could have had all the Massassi working for him and yet still he was to scared to attack Ragnos who he hated.

Imagine being afraid to use an army a freaking army against one person because you might die... So its possible that Ragnos > Sadow + huge army.

vpokdekjyafmidp
so basically ragnos was the emporer and sadow was the lead general?

Faunus
No, Ragnos ruled and eveyone else kissed his feet.

vpokdekjyafmidp
...

zod360
I'd also like to point out that venerable sith lords in league with Kressh once Sadow was dark lord were easily killed by a few Massasi. And Massasi suck.

Wesker
Originally posted by zod360
I'd also like to point out that venerable sith lords in league with Kressh once Sadow was dark lord were easily killed by a few Massasi. And Massasi suck.

No, this is bullshit. The only Sith Lord killed in the raid on Ziost was Simus, and that was because he was surprised by Sadow and shot (And he doesn't have anything to block a blaster that he's never seen before).

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
I'd also like to point out that venerable sith lords in league with Kressh once Sadow was dark lord were easily killed by a few Massasi. And Massasi suck.

They were stabbed in the back when they least expected it... They didn't see it coming, they had no reason to expect betrayel...

And Janus Simus was a talking head in a jar, even if he knew blasters he wouldn't have been able to stop it.



No they didn't have a lead general, Ragnos was the highest sole and supreme commander of the Sith empire, the rest was nothing comapred to him. However Sadow was respected by the Massassi and ever Ragnos his dead turned many Massassi against their masters.

Illustrious
Originally posted by zod360
I'd also like to point out that venerable sith lords in league with Kressh once Sadow was dark lord were easily killed by a few Massasi. And Massasi suck.

They were instantly stabbed in the back. Sadow has some control over the massassi.

And as far as sucking. Those same massassi went toe-to-toe with some Jedi, so as far as being ambushed by people who can fight with Jedi + being battle controled by Sadow meaning they suck, sure.

zod360
Originally posted by Illustrious
They were instantly stabbed in the back. Sadow has some control over the massassi.

And as far as sucking. Those same massassi went toe-to-toe with some Jedi, so as far as being ambushed by people who can fight with Jedi + being battle controled by Sadow meaning they suck, sure.

So basically they were not strong enough in the force to sense the attack.

zod360
Did Sadow control them or is that just a guess?

Fishy
No thats not a guess, they obeyed Sadow his commands.

And why would they be trying to sense an attack or anything going on around them when they trusted them? The Jedi didn't see the clone attacks coming. Sidious didn't see the attack from Vader coming, Revan didn't see Malak his attack coming...

vpokdekjyafmidp
i highly doubt that marka ragnos couldve taken on an army of massassi AND naga sadow.

Tangible God
Why do you doubt that?

Revolver Ocelot
How long does it take Sadow to pull that Massasi stuff anyways? Is it instant? It would be ridiculous if it was.

Fishy
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
How long does it take Sadow to pull that Massasi stuff anyways? Is it instant? It would be ridiculous if it was.

He doesn't really control them, he just speaks to them and they are loyal to him very loyal.

Not like it matters if he did control them the effect would likely have been the same, seeing as he created literally millions of illusions that were as good as illusions can get, real in every sense of the word, they only required Sadow to keep them in tact.

zod360
The Massasi were still no better then your average warrior race. And it only took like three to kill some well respected sith lords. The fact that they were not able to sense it through the force kind of furthers my point. The sith generally had terrible control in the force. By control I mean things like sensing things through the force.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
The Massasi were still no better then your average warrior race. And it only took like three to kill some well respected sith lords. The fact that they were not able to sense it through the force kind of furthers my point. The sith generally had terrible control in the force. By control I mean things like sensing things through the force.

did they?

Did the Jedi sense that the clones were going to attack them?
Did Revan sense that Malak was going to attack him?
Didi Sidious sense that Vader was going to attack him?

they were betrayed stabbed in the back by people they trusted, of course they didn't see it coming. They trusted those people they weren't reaching out to their minds to sense their emotions, they had no reason to expect betrayal.

zod360
It is easier if you are caught of guard to defend againts melee users then it is to defend against blaster wielders. All that the clones had to do were to stand back and shoot them as soon as the order was made. The Massasi had to move in with their blades and attck and can't have been too hard to sense. The time it took them to attack the sith lords should have been enough to sense the attck and defend against it. I'd also like to point out that the jedi were fighting in battle at the time. As was Revan. Plus it was only really the knights, padawans and students who went down without a fight. And the clones were also much more skilled then the Massasi. The clones would have been more effective aginst the suth lords then the Massas.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
It is easier if you are caught of guard to defend againts melee users then it is to defend against blaster wielders. All that the clones had to do were to stand back and shoot them as soon as the order was made. The Massasi had to move in with their blades and attck and can't have been too hard to sense. The time it took them to attack the sith lords should have been enough to sense the attck and defend against it. I'd also like to point out that the jedi were fighting in battle at the time. As was Revan. Plus it was only really the knights, padawans and students who went down without a fight. And the clones were also much more skilled then the Massasi. The clones would have been more effective aginst the suth lords then the Massas.

My god...

okay first of all the Sith Lords were also fighting a battle or were retreating or organising things they were bussy. They would not have sensed the Massassi doing anything until the first one would have drawn its blade in which case it was already to late. You don't go around reading the emotions of people around you when you trust them and have done so for a very long time. Especially not if you have more important things to do. Nobody has ever done that. Nobody, not Jedi not Sith nobody. Besides its very easy to hide your emotions from the people around you. Atton managed to do it, by playing Pazaak in his mind or remembering hyperspace routes... Its not that hard to do.

The Massassi are also far greater then clones, do you think a clone could stand up against a Jedi in a sword fight? They wouldn't stand a chance, the Massassi could and often did kill Jedi in fights. You had sith Lords being betrayed by beings as powerful as Jedi.

zod360
"The Massassi are also far greater then clones, do you think a clone could stand up against a Jedi in a sword fight? They wouldn't stand a chance, the Massassi could and often did kill Jedi in fights. You had sith Lords being betrayed by beings as powerful as Jedi."

But clones don't use melee weapons. They are as effective as Massasi. Obviously not in melee fights. And Massasi suck. Sylvar was able to kill a few of Exar Kun's more powerful ones without need of a lightsaber. They are nthing special. Clones would be able to deal with jedi better then Massasi.

zod360
BTW did Memit Nadill feature in any comics after the ones' with Sadow and Kressh.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
"The Massassi are also far greater then clones, do you think a clone could stand up against a Jedi in a sword fight? They wouldn't stand a chance, the Massassi could and often did kill Jedi in fights. You had sith Lords being betrayed by beings as powerful as Jedi."

But clones don't use melee weapons. They are as effective as Massasi. Obviously not in melee fights. And Massasi suck. Sylvar was able to kill a few of Exar Kun's more powerful ones without need of a lightsaber. They are nthing special. Clones would be able to deal with jedi better then Massasi.

Clones use blasters...

Put them against a Jedi that knows what he's doing and they are dead. Put a few Massassi against them and you have one dead Jedi.

Sylvar was already angry and had really sharp claws that cut the Massassi down. Besides Kun his Massassi were weaker then those that Sadow had.

zod360
A good enough jedi would take out a few Massasi. And the Massasi in Dark Lord of the sith are stronger then the Massasi in the fall of the sith empire. It says in DLOTS that Naga Sadow made them stronger through alchemy to guard his legacy on Yavin 4, implying that he made them stronger once he had arrived on Yavin 4 which takes place after Fall of the Sith Empire. Hence the Massasi in DLOTS are stronger then the Massasi in FOTSE. As I said before the jedi that were killed by clones were in the heat of battle. The sith lords were sitting peacefully in their ships. The jedi were ambushed by many clones. the sith lords were ambushed by a few Massasi. The jedi had less time to sense the attack then the sith lords. The Massasi were as weak as hell.

zod360
Adding on the fact that Sylvar killed a few Massasi which were stronger then the ones in FOTSE without a lightsaber. And a few weaker Massasi were able to kill the sith lords. All this suggests that even Sylvar would probably be able to contend with a great sith lord in the time of Naga Sadow and Kressh.

zod360
These sith lords were likely in the circle of sith lords at Marka Ragnos' funeral - there were twenty (I got this info from one of the KOTORs). Face it the ancient sith were not that "godlike".

w00t2112
Numan fanboyism will not put Kotor Characters above the Ancient Sith, there really is no point arguing with you, you cannot debate.
When we rebutt you, you don't rebutt back, instead you ignore it and add in a new point, moreso an speculation or assumption.

In your 3 posts, not one of the is supported with solid proof, you have not refuted the quote of starwars.com stating Ragnos to be the Strongest of his time, inclusive of Kressh, Sadow and Simus, you have not refuted that Sadow has conjured up the ability to summon illusions that can kill, you have not refuted the fact that Sadow can blow up a star with the power of the dark side. Put into context, no Sith after the Ancients had that power, and every major power in Kotor, originated from the Ancient Sith, including the instakills.

Numan until you provide solid quotes and feats put into context, your speculation and assumptions are moot.

Fishy
Numan stop tripple posting, edit your posts for gods sake.. You know how to do it because you edited your first post, and 15 minutes haven't past yet. But to deal with your stupid speculation.

the Dark Lords were bussy with other things and wouldn't be going around sensing the minds of those that were loyal to them. The Massassi were standing next to the Sith Lords, so once they got the order all they had to do was draw the blade and stab.

The clones had to open fire first, and guess what sometimes the Jedi had time to turn around and fight back and they still died. The Sith Lords did not have that chance, they were slaughtered stabbed in the back by the people they had trusted in literally a second. It isn't like the Massassi had to walk over to their lords with their weapons drawn they were standing right next to them. And there were many Massassi on board each ship seeing as the ship was piloted by them.

The Sith Lords also had other things to pre-occupy their mind with, and the Massassi should have been able to hide their feelings from their masters.



The Massassi Sylvar killed were called primitives compared to the weaker one's Sadow had, if you think otherwise show a scan. And she stil had her claws and teeth to kill them with, those are lethal weapons.



WTF does this have to do with anything? What does it even mean what are you implying?

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
"The Massassi are also far greater then clones, do you think a clone could stand up against a Jedi in a sword fight? They wouldn't stand a chance, the Massassi could and often did kill Jedi in fights. You had sith Lords being betrayed by beings as powerful as Jedi."

But clones don't use melee weapons. They are as effective as Massasi. Obviously not in melee fights. And Massasi suck. Sylvar was able to kill a few of Exar Kun's more powerful ones without need of a lightsaber. They are nthing special. Clones would be able to deal with jedi better then Massasi.

Yet again more speculation. Whereas people have provided quotes and context giving the information of why someone would win, or why something is superior to another, you have given us just a pure opinion, except instead of stating so, you say its fact.

Prove up. I have provided you with adequate sources, however you chose to ignore them then thats your problem, face it, you have lost this debate.

zod360
Why don't you follow your own advice Woot. You must be stupid if you actually believe what you are saying. And I have rebutted your points that you mentioned. I am showing that the ancient sith really were not that incredible, so Ragnos being the most powerful out of all of them (and there is not even prood that he is the MOST powerful) does not mean that he is THE most powerful force user ever. But you seem to have ignored everything I said. And Aleema was able to summon illusions that could affect the reality physically. You seem to have ignored my previous point about sith magic only increasing one's power with the force, and not control. And there is not even proof that the instant kills originated from the ancient sith.

zod360
And Fishy, the sith lords were way less preoccupied then the jedi were when they got ambushed. And don't even try to prove that the Massasi were able to attack the sith before the clones were able to attack the jedi. And no fishy, the massasi in DLOTS were stronger then the Massasi in FOTSE. I have already proven this. And the thing about the sith lords at the funeral shows that they were in the same league as people like Sadow and Kressh.

zod360
Originally posted by w00t2112
Yet again more speculation. Whereas people have provided quotes and context giving the information of why someone would win, or why something is superior to another, you have given us just a pure opinion, except instead of stating so, you say its fact.

Prove up. I have provided you with adequate sources, however you chose to ignore them then thats your problem, face it, you have lost this debate.

I just showed that your "adequate sources" do not show that Ragnos was the most powerful force user. And you have just ignored the posts in which I have provided an explanation.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
And Fishy, the sith lords were way less preoccupied then the jedi were when they got ambushed. And don't even try to prove that the Massasi were able to attack the sith before the clones were able to attack the jedi. And no fishy, the massasi in DLOTS were stronger then the Massasi in FOTSE. I have already proven this. And the thing about the sith lords at the funeral shows that they were in the same league as people like Sadow and Kressh.

No you have stated it and you just claim its true, provide a scan. I have no reason to believe anything you say.

and the massassi were able to attack the Sith better then the clones the Jedi, for one they were force sensitive so they knew about the force, they likely knew how to hide their emotions from the Sith Lords and they were standing right next to them.

The clones had none of this, sometimes the Jedi had time to react and they still died the Sith Lords did not have this. And being at the funeral means jack shit, first of all we don't see anybody sitting in a circle or whatever. Second of all Coleman Trebor was on the council, he was killed in three shots does that mean Yoda could be killed by Jango in three shots? No it doesn't, and then you have the very simple fact that Sadow and Kressh were far more powerful then those guys.

zod360
I know but that proves that the race were not as "godlike" as you say. I wasn't denying that Sadow was leagues above them in terms of power.

zod360
Why would I lie? IKC or Illustrious would show that I was lying straight away and I would lose credibility.

Fishy
What credibility? You have none... And show scans

and it doesn't prove anything, i'm glad you agree with the rest of my post though. And start using the edit button already.

zod360
I do not agree with the rest of your posts.

Fishy
Then adress the post instead of ignoring it.

You don't win an argument by ignoring what other people say.

zod360
I said that because you seem to have thought that I agreed with you. I adressed everything any you have hardly adressed anything I have said.

Fishy
Like what? What haven't I answered yet? I could probably make a huge post listing everything you haven't replied to yet, but of course i'm the one avoiding the questions refusing to give answer. Of course i'm the ignorant person here who doesn't know the truth and refuses to see logic, thats me not you... Of course now, I mean how could I ever think that the all wise Numan would ever be wrong.

Still for some reason I do, so find everything I didn't answer yet and I will, if you do the same.

w00t2112
How about this Numan, all you have effectively proven is that people in have replicated much weaker and ineffective feats that are of the origin, however not in the same league as what the Ancient Sith had.

Like i said, the most powerful techniques in Kotor originated from the Ancient Sith, if you listen to Kreia carefully that is what she says, although Nihilus is a wound in the force, the ability he uses is of the Ancient Sith. Now if the Ancient Sith possesed such powers, i fail to see how you can see them as your average Jedi. If you aren't sure of this, play Kotor 2 and make sure you trigger every response possible from Kreia, her technique is of the Ancient Sith.

The Ancient Sith were leagues above everyone, and their race possesed godlike powers, i don't see any future generations blowing up stars with the force, i dont see how you can even think to future Sith on par with the Ancient Sith. Let me explain a few things to you, the only Jedi/Sith that even remotely resembles the Ancient Sith are DE Sidious and POST JA, in other worlds, controlling black holes, creating instakills. That means it leaves 2 time periods where each the Jedi and the Sith are strongest...NJO - LOTF is where the Jedi are near "Godlike" the Ancient Sith to the end of Kun's time are where the Sith are actually Godlike.

You do not confirm with this, and you are indeed young, unless you can refute instead of providing illogical speculation i suggest you give up. You have not addressed half the points we have made. By simply attempting to use illogical reasoning and attempting to do A > B and then saying because A > B the Ancient Sith are not godlike.

Frankly the way you argue, you have addressed our points in a way you regard a distasteful toy, you have not listen to our reasoning, btw if you agree Sadow is leagues above almost every force user then where does that put Ragnos? Certainly you don't believe Revan can be even more powerful than Sadow, you will be using illogical reasoning and being a biased fanboy.

Your incompetence knows no bounds, you mean to deny the power of the worthy and promote the power of the weak, seriously Numan, you really should get off this forum, how can you even assume that Clones > Massassi, it takes 10 000 clones to gang up on one Jedi, whilst Massassi can kill Jedi by themselves, and as Fishy has said, you will not generally suspect someone you trust. Say this, you are a Jedi Master, your apprentice is someone you trust, the suddenly your apprentice stabs you in the back with a lightsaber, and you are dying, how can you "sense" that, honestly you neeed much more proof, provide quotes and logical evidence that proves your points.

zod360
You seriously need to listen to yuor own advice. You said the exact same thing before about me ignoring you, yet I rebutted the points you mentioned straight afterwards. And you ignored pretty much all of my points.

I was explaining that the ancient sith were not as "godlike" as you seem to think. Of course Sadow was but he was pretty much the only one. You get exceptional beings in all time periods. In KOTOR you get Revan, Traya, The Exile, Nihilus and Sion for example. The evidence I gave was the fact that sith lords in the same league (in terms of rank) as Kressh and Sadow were easily taken down by a few Massasi. I then proved that the Massasi basically sucked. One of my points was that Sylvar, a jedi knight was able to kill a few without even using a lightsaber. I have used much more evidence then this and if you re-read what I have already said you will see.

w00t2112
Except Ragnos was more powerful than Sadow, and Sadow is stronger than pretty much than everyone that succeeded his role of Dark Lord of the Sith.

Show me where you rebutted any of my points, show me how you did it, remember your points about the Massassi are pointless, you have not even proven that one group is stronger than another. Like i said, you haven't addressed it and anyone here can vouch for me, you seriously are too young to be here.

zod360
Why don't you follow your own advice Woot. You must be stupid if you actually believe what you are saying. And I have rebutted your points that you mentioned. I am showing that the ancient sith really were not that incredible, so Ragnos being the most powerful out of all of them (and there is not even prood that he is the MOST powerful) does not mean that he is THE most powerful force user ever. But you seem to have ignored everything I said. And Aleema was able to summon illusions that could affect the reality physically. You seem to have ignored my previous point about sith magic only increasing one's power with the force, and not control. And there is not even proof that the instant kills originated from the ancient sith.

That is where.

zod360
And if you are wondering why I didn't put too much effort into proving them wrong, it is because they were so incredibly stupid that I didn't really see a point in doing so and also because I have done so many times before.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
Why don't you follow your own advice Woot. You must be stupid if you actually believe what you are saying. And I have rebutted your points that you mentioned. I am showing that the ancient sith really were not that incredible, so Ragnos being the most powerful out of all of them (and there is not even prood that he is the MOST powerful) does not mean that he is THE most powerful force user ever. But you seem to have ignored everything I said. And Aleema was able to summon illusions that could affect the reality physically. You seem to have ignored my previous point about sith magic only increasing one's power with the force, and not control. And there is not even proof that the instant kills originated from the ancient sith.

That is where.

1) Effectively starwars.com states he was the most powerful of his time, and yet Sadow ranks above everyone who succeeded him, so if Ragnos is more powerful than logically it puts him above the rest.

2) Like i rebutted that point, her illusions fail to even faze Exar Kun, her ability with it was far weaker than what Sadow produced.

3) Where is the evidence for Sith magic only increasing one's power with the force?

4) Yes there is, your faithful favourite time period effectively states that the instakill Kreia produced, was of the Ancient Sith of which there is no defense against, and by her saying that it meant during her time.

Effectively i was correct, you have provided us with your opinion and your speculation, honestly there is not one shred of evidence supporting your case, and if there was, kindly show it to us, whilst Illustrious and the rest have argued much more reasoned points with you.

w00t2112
Originally posted by zod360
And if you are wondering why I didn't put too much effort into proving them wrong, it is because they were so incredibly stupid that I didn't really see a point in doing so and also because I have done so many times before.

Sorry to break your wet dream, but you haven't, first you said because the Sith respected him, then you go off and attempt to discredit the them by saying ZOMG TEH MASSASSI KILLED THEM, BY BACKSTABBING THEM THEY MUST BE UBER WEAK.

There is not one person in this forum who agrees with you, and you blatant thinking that you are right, when your in the 1% and the rest of us is in the 99% is extremely funny.

zod360
All you can do is say that I am a bad debator and I am too young and I am a fanboy and I don't provide logic. That's all you can do because you know that I have provided logical points.

w00t2112
Nope, unfortuanley reading all your points, none of them are logical, every single one of them is without proof without support, how are they logical?

Remeber that whilst the rest of us provided sources, did you? No and that is not all i have done, you have not rebutted because you cannot.

zod360
You can call me a fanboy but you are a way bigger fanboy then I am. All of you with the exception of Fishy are fanboys, so I don't really care what you think about the topic.

Tangible God
I've read alot of these posts, and so far zod, you're the only fanboy present.

zod360
Please try and make sense. What the hell am I a fanboy of?

zod360
By the way Woot, I have reported you for going off topic and using this thread to bash me. Either post constructively or don't post at all.

Fishy
Numan your ten years old... You shouldn't be reporting anybody... Because you are breaking the rules by just being here.



And again make a list of the points I didn't adress and i'll adress them.



Add to that Kressh who was his equal, and Simus and Ragnos who were both greater. So that would make four people above all others. Sadow surpasses everybody later in EU era, and from what we know he was weaker then Simus and he is definitly weaker then Ragnos... Kressh is equal to him. The four greatest of that era were greater then anybody of any other era. Even if the others would be a lot weaker they could still easily be as powerful as Kun, Sidious, Revan whatever.



They were stabbed in the back, and like I already said a dozen times. They had no reason to suspect the Massassi of going to attack them, the Massassi had served them for a very long time, and they were basically just standing nexto the Sith Lords, all they had to do was draw their swords and cut them up. The Sith Lords had plenty of other things to occupy their mind with just a second before they were cut up in pieces, like the PT Jedi, like Revan like Sidious. Unless of course you can prove that commanding a fleet doesn't require any kind of focus.



You just forgot to mention that this is a Cathar a cat like creature with terrible sharp fangs and claws and anger, and weaker Massassi then the one's Sadow used primitive beings compared to the older one's that cut up the Sith Lords, you also forget to mention that Sylvar wasn't ambused by them, wasn't cut in the back by them but instead she attacked them. Completely different situations, its like saying Zett Juska is better then Aayla Secura because he did manage to kill a few clone troopers, but she a very talented Jedi knight did not. Being stabbed in the back means jack shit about your own personal power.



No actually you haven't given a shred of evidence because every time I ask for quotes and the context or for scans you refuse to provide them. You state things and accept us to believe them, when you do not provide the actual quotes. So you haven't given us prove just your opinion which is flawed.

Now of course you won't adress these points in my post, you might adres the post in general, or just answer with things you already said but you won't prove anything, like you have failed to prove anything in the last few pages and any other debate you have entered. Numan if you trully want us to believe us, then deal with my entire post, point by point, by writing new stuff and not just stating the same thing again but actually destroying my points.

Tangible God
Originally posted by zod360
Please try and make sense. What the hell am I a fanboy of? It's not so much that your a fanboy of one particular thing, it's that whatever you defend or whatever you say, you say more as "opinion" than actual fact.

It's due to your apparent lack of substantial evidence and proof that makes you a fanboy.

Illustrious
Originally posted by zod360
By the way Woot, I have reported you for going off topic and using this thread to bash me. Either post constructively or don't post at all.


Uh, he didn't insult you. Don't be daft and start running off with reports when he makes the very true statement that you cannot use logic.

zod360
The first quote that you used was directed at Woot. I'll answer the rest tomorrow because I'm going to bed so please don't post anything else until then.

zod360
Originally posted by Illustrious
Uh, he didn't insult you. Don't be daft and start running off with reports when he makes the very true statement that you cannot use logic.

I happen to find the term "fanboy" very offensive. Even if I didn't it is still an insult or do I need to give you the definition of the word.

Tangible God
Originally posted by zod360
The first quote that you used was directed at Woot. I'll answer the rest tomorrow because I'm going to bed so please don't post anything else until then. Someone's a little megalomaniacal.

w00t2112
His a Kid, he shouldn't be reporting, what would be funny is if he got banned instead :P

vpokdekjyafmidp
this is really really funny

Wesker
I'm surprised he hasn't been banned... again. And he's just making assertions- there's no logos to his method.

"The Massassi are weak. The Sith Lords (Of which, btw, none were present in the clash at Ziost where prison guards were slaughtered and Simus, who just happened to be in the area) are weak. Clones are stronger than Massassi. Ancient Sith are weak. Therefore, ancient Sith are weak."

That's him in a nutshell. His opinion somehow becomes immutable proof of... his opinion.

Numan, do yourself a favor and stop trying to debate like a mature, rational thinking person. You fail miserably.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8673/numanisright5xe.jpg

w00t2112
:O i just realised, Numan doesnt have a gender!!!

zod360
Originally posted by Wesker
I'm surprised he hasn't been banned... again. And he's just making assertions- there's no logos to his method.

"The Massassi are weak. The Sith Lords (Of which, btw, none were present in the clash at Ziost where prison guards were slaughtered and Simus, who just happened to be in the area) are weak. Clones are stronger than Massassi. Ancient Sith are weak. Therefore, ancient Sith are weak."

That's him in a nutshell. His opinion somehow becomes immutable proof of... his opinion.

Numan, do yourself a favor and stop trying to debate like a mature, rational thinking person. You fail miserably.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8673/numanisright5xe.jpg

I am not talking about the clash at Ziost. The sith lords Horak-Mul and Dor-Gal-Ram were easily killed by their weaponless Massasi slaves. These Massasi were weaker then the Massasi that Sylvar (who was just a knight) killed without the use of her lightsaber. These sith lords were some of the most powerful there were. This shows that the ancient sith were not complete badasses and that as with any other race, there were a few exceptional beings.

Wesker
You're judging the sith lords at their weakest moment, when they got jumped by half a dozen massassi slaves who were up until that point 100% loyal? So I guess Lord Sidious is the weakest sith lord of all time, since he got bench pressed into a reactor shaft by a one handed cyborg who was dying.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
I am not talking about the clash at Ziost. The sith lords Horak-Mul and Dor-Gal-Ram were easily killed by their weaponless Massasi slaves. These Massasi were weaker then the Massasi that Sylvar (who was just a knight) killed without the use of her lightsaber. These sith lords were some of the most powerful there were. This shows that the ancient sith were not complete badasses and that as with any other race, there were a few exceptional beings.

You still have to respond with my post, and if this is the case then show scans.

zod360
Check it out at SWcomics.com. My scanner is kind of broken and I don't know how to get it working so I can't provide them. And Wesker, Sidious was concentrating on his lightning and it was only like a millisecond after he decided to turn on the emporer that he lifted up Sidious and threw him into the shaft. The sith lords were peacefully in their ships watching their fleet, and the comics show that they had time to realize that the Massasi had turned on them and were even able to say a few things before they got attacked by the WEAPONLESS Massasi.

Fishy
Originally posted by zod360
Check it out at SWcomics.com. My scanner is kind of broken and I don't know how to get it working so I can't provide them. And Wesker, Sidious was concentrating on his lightning and it was only like a millisecond after he decided to turn on the emporer that he lifted up Sidious and threw him into the shaft. The sith lords were peacefully in their ships watching their fleet, and the comics show that they had time to realize that the Massasi had turned on them and were even able to say a few things before they got attacked by the WEAPONLESS Massasi.

And you still haven't answered my post, which you promised you would do first thing today...

So i'm just going to say you can't. And I'm not going to do your research for you, check out SWcomics yourself read the comic and then give me a link to the comic...

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