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Basically, the same situation as AOTC. But replace Dooku with Malak.

What happens?

So it's not all three at once?

No.

I think Yoda alone is at the very least equal to Malak.

I'd say that Malak wins.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
I'd say that Malak wins.

Janus quote...

Oh no doubt Malak takes Obiwan and Anakin, except Malak isn't on par in saber combat with Dooku, and Yoda is above Dooku, so Yoda is above Malak.

I'd say that Malak is above Dooku and that Dooku is above Yoda in sabre combat. Read Janus' quote, it basically explains what I think.

I wouldn't put Malak above Dooku. You're right Yoda flips around but he remained unmatched in lightsaber combat. And I would put Dooku on the level of I don't know, maybe Revan, maybe Ulic Qel Droma, but he's certainly above Malak, and so is Yoda.

Unmatched? Dooku is able to stalemate Yoda in the fight, and Dooku isn't even perspiring whereas Yoda is gasping for breath.

And why would he be "certainly above Malak"?

When did Yoda ever try to kill Dooku? Yoda is 800 years old, why wouldn't he be tired? Malak was a lightsaber prodigy and so was Dooku, and there's absolutely no evidence that states Malak would take Dooku, so why would he even get a chance with Yoda? Especially if he's not on his trusty SF

Originally posted by tdtd
I wouldn't put Malak above Dooku. You're right Yoda flips around but he remained unmatched in lightsaber combat. And I would put Dooku on the level of I don't know, maybe Revan, maybe Ulic Qel Droma, but he's certainly above Malak, and so is Yoda.

confused1

Originally posted by tdtd
When did Yoda ever try to kill Dooku? Yoda is 800 years old, why wouldn't he be tired? Malak was a lightsaber prodigy and so was Dooku, and there's absolutely no evidence that states Malak would take Dooku, so why would he even get a chance with Yoda? Especially if he's not on his trusty SF

There's no evidence to suggest the contrary either...

Dooku is eighty years old. He's nearing the end of his natural life span, just like Yoda. Yet Yoda is gasping for breath and Dooku is relatively unpeturbed...

Unperturbed.. Is that why Dooku runs? Because he "stalemated" Yoda with supposedly no effort? Because the sith don't have the characteristic of being arrogant and overconfident? Right. Anyways Malak and Dooku maybe on par at best, but Yoda is still greater than both of them in force powers and lightsaber combat.

Runs? He's already stalemated Yoda and he knows that the Republic army is on it's way, hence why he goes to his ship.

You've provided no evidence for the contrary and neither do you in any of your posts...

Originally posted by tdtd
Unperturbed.. Is that why Dooku runs? Because he "stalemated" Yoda with supposedly no effort? Because the sith don't have the characteristic of being arrogant and overconfident? Right. Anyways Malak and Dooku maybe on par at best, but Yoda is still greater than both of them in force powers and lightsaber combat. I agree, Malak was no challenge in KotOR espescially if you have drain life and the power after it (first time I didn't have drain life). And Dooku well he has a good fighting style but loses all of his battles except with Obi-Wan and if you look at the EU (I've only read one book featuring him) he also wins against Lorian Nodd a longtime rival. Wheras Malak also loses against Revan who is vastly more powerful. The only person it hints at him beating was Bastila who was still just a knight.

I put Yoda and Sidious above Dooku, but not by much. If Dooku was better than Yoda, he could have killed him at Geonosis and be done with it. Yes, Yoda is breathing like he needs an oxygen tank, but look at their fighting styles. Yoda is using Ataru (Crouching Jedi, Flying Frog) whereas Dooku is using Makashi (minimal energy used in the style).

Of course Yoda is going to be more tired.

Malak is above Dooku, though; Yoda would have a great deal of trouble, and probably be defeated by this one.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Runs? He's already stalemated Yoda and he knows that the Republic army is on it's way, hence why he goes to his ship.

You've provided no evidence for the contrary and neither do you in any of your posts...


AHAH you've yet to provide anything either? Can we say hypocrite?

And Rex, no way is Sidious better than Dooku in lightsaber combat. At best he was better than ROTS Obiwan but Dooku would cut him in half. Dooku was on par with Windu and Windu made him his *****

Have you asked? No.

Dooku had perfected a style dedicated to dueling. He used minimal effort and wasted virtually no effort in fighting. His form made him the best duelist of the PT era.

Dooku is the worst out of the big 4 of the PT era. He was extremely good with a saber bit I don't think he was quite as good as the others. He clearly runs away from Yoda because he knows that he cannot win, and Yoda seems to have the upper hand throughout the fight. Sidious seemed to give Yoda much more trouble then Dooku did and was able to take out three jedi masters with relative ease (though that was partly due to his use of the force in my opinion), and Mace was able to defeat Sidious and clearly master his form to such a level where he hardly ever made a mistake.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Have you asked? No.

Dooku had perfected a style dedicated to dueling. He used minimal effort and wasted virtually no effort in fighting. His form made him the best duelist of the PT era.

....ok? And this diminishes his ability or increases his ability as a fighter, and against Malak how?

Runs away? He does not display any signs of fear.

He has these reasons to run:

1) The Republic army is coming for the hangar. Dooku knows that getting the Death Star plans to Sidious is imperative.

2) If he doesn't get on his ship quickly, the Republic could blockafe the planet.

Dooku is not the worst...

You're right Dooku is not the worst. But it is not only reasonable but very logical to assume that he knew he couldn't defeat Yoda if the combat were to continue. Also, What makes Dooku below Malak, or what makes Malak above Dooku?

This is like saying Sidious tried to run at the beginning of the fight with Yoda because he was outclassed or is weaker.


But who ended up fleeing at the end of their fight? Sidious or Yoda?

Well I interpreted the fight as a win for Yoda and that Dooku knew he couldn't win so he departed. He is clearly not better than Sidous who was not only able to deal with Yoda much better then Dooku was, but was also able to kill 3 jedi masters in a matter of seconds. And in my opinion, Windu was clearly in control of his battle with Sidious and seemed to be in such harmony with the force that he just fought perfectly.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Runs away? He does not display any signs of fear.

He has these reasons to run:

1) The Republic army is coming for the hangar. Dooku knows that getting the Death Star plans to Sidious is imperative.

2) If he doesn't get on his ship quickly, the Republic could blockafe the planet.

Dooku is not the worst...

Well...you know that in a former version of the AotC script Yoda disarmed Dooku, jumped on his shoulders and was about to kill him ? By just reading Lucas own description of the fight it's pretty clear that Yoda is in fact the superior fighter.

And I don't see where the "Yoda had to take a deep breath" argument does say anything. Dooku just stands on the ground and parries while Yoda jumps around like a mad muppet and hammers 2 attack per second on Dooku's defence. Of course he looks more tired than Dooku but still Dooku was the one who left the place where he has clearly intented to beat Yoda before the fight started.

Yet...Malak is clearly no pushover in terms of lightsaber combat but the idea that he should be superior to Dooku, a Sith Lord who practiced the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" for 8 decades or Yoda with more than 8 centuries of lightsaber training appears somewhat odd to me especially when all his skill (and the power backup from the Star Forge) wasn't enough to take down Revan.

So Anakin and Obi-Wan are toast but I think Yoda takes him.

Uh, AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan get badly tooled, Yoda fights Malak for a minute, Yoda looks like he's gaining the upper hand when Malak flees to return the Star Forge plans to Revan.

Right so in reality, Yoda would tool Malak..

Originally posted by tdtd
Right so in reality, Yoda would tool Malak.. Very much so.

thank you

No problem. There's only one person who voted for Malak anyways. I am just saying what they're all thinking.

Very true

You know, storywise, I always thought that malak was just sort of a Darth Vader Knock-off. Maimed somehow (I have always wondered how), and scary looking mask to hide it. but the way the were portrayed - I've gotta agree with the consensus. He probably kills (literally as opposed to Dooku, who as more of a gentleman allowed his defeated opponents to live) Obi-wan and Anakin, then loses to Yoda in an awesomely computer generated lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by docb77
You know, storywise, I always thought that malak was just sort of a Darth Vader Knock-off. Maimed somehow (I have always wondered how), and scary looking mask to hide it. but the way the were portrayed - I've gotta agree with the consensus. He probably kills (literally as opposed to Dooku, who as more of a gentleman allowed his defeated opponents to live) Obi-wan and Anakin, then loses to Yoda in an awesomely computer generated lightsaber duel. Allowed his opponents to live? IN AotC he is about to bring his lightsaber down to kill Obi-Wan then Anakin jumps in and saces his ass. At least we all agree the Yoda would beat Malak.

Malak is a Vader rip off, just not as cool and a bit more powerful.

Malak sucks, and yet he has fanboys protecting him from his obvious betters.

This'd be close, Malak > Dooku so hge'd definately take care of Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda comes. Then it's him vs. Yoda, which would be very close but I think Malak would win.

Originally posted by darthsith19
This'd be close, Malak > Dooku so hge'd definately take care of Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda comes. Then it's him vs. Yoda, which would be very close but I think Malak would win. You have got to be kidding me. Malak is a loser who is only there to further the story. I think that they could have done better. That's why the DS ending is preferred, because Revan's the real bad guy of the game if you pick that ending.

Originally posted by DarthBanevv
You have got to be kidding me. Malak is a loser who is only there to further the story. I think that they could have done better. That's why the DS ending is preferred, because Revan's the real bad guy of the game if you pick that ending.

Darth Malak was a master swordsman and an adept Force-user, excelling particularly in such skills as Force Lightning, Force Drain, Force Horror, Force Immunity and Force Stasis. He has wielded powers such as Force Whirlwind, Force Rage, Force Grip, and Mind Control.

Malak was a loser who gets killed easily by Revan. And just because he uses those powers means nothing. He get's dispatched by Revan easily and with "All the power of the Star Forge" running through him.

We all know Malak was powerful. We also know Dooku was one of the best swordsmen in centuries. I doubt Malak is on par with Dooku at all. But he would take care of Anikan and Obiwan.

Originally posted by tdtd
We all know Malak was powerful. We also know Dooku was one of the best swordsmen in centuries. I doubt Malak is on par with Dooku at all. But he would take care of Anikan and Obiwan. Yes, we all believe that Yoda would take him, except darthsith and Traya.

I personally believe Revan would have a tough time with Yoda, so I'd have to go with Yoda on this one. Malak was powerful, yes, but not THAT powerful. Yoda is arguably one of the strongest Jedi of all time.

Furthermore, just because Yoda exerted effort does NOT mean he was losing. Dooku ran away after Yoda was able to counter everything Dooku threw at him.

The only reason Yoda ran from the fight with Sidious was because on that terrain, Palpatine had the upper hand, the Clones had almost arrived, and he had no way of getting back up to where Sidious was. It was made quite clear, though, that Yoda was the better of the two.

true

Malak? On par with Dooku, that is a laugh, Malak was unable to best a memory-wiped Revan, where he had every single advantage, including more knowledge, more enhanced force powers and the ability to regenerate numerous times, yet he lost to Revan, who at this time, was around the skill of a Jedi Master, having to relearn the force and lightsaber combat.

Dooku who was arguably the best PT Duelist, lose to a pathetic dark lord like Malak? Who was unable to best, a shadow of his former master? What a joke.

exactly

I do not believe that Malak is on par with Dooku. Undoubtedly, he would dispose of Obi-Wan and Anakin quickly, but when Yoda comes he would lose.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Malak? On par with Dooku, that is a laugh, Malak was unable to best a memory-wiped Revan, where he had every single advantage, including more knowledge, more enhanced force powers and the ability to regenerate numerous times, yet he lost to Revan, who at this time, was around the skill of a Jedi Master, having to relearn the force and lightsaber combat.

Dooku who was arguably the best PT Duelist, lose to a pathetic dark lord like Malak? Who was unable to best, a shadow of his former master? What a joke.

That shadow of his former master also happened to be a lightsaber prodigy that was very likely the second strongest individual of his contingent era.

Originally posted by Illustrious
That shadow of his former master also happened to be a lightsaber prodigy that was very likely the second strongest individual of his contingent era.

Except that around 6 months worth of retraining after a complete memory wipe, is really going to do much. Revan, was a prodigy, but compared to what he was as a Dark Lord of the Sith, he was relatively weaker until he regained his knowledge. Emphasis on the "very likely" just because its likely, does not make it so, whilst Malak having taken power and said to be a lightsaber prodigy, is somehow defeated by a 6 month retrained Jedi.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Except that around 6 months worth of retraining after a complete memory wipe, is really going to do much. Revan, was a prodigy, but compared to what he was as a Dark Lord of the Sith, he was relatively weaker until he regained his knowledge. Emphasis on the "very likely" just because its likely, does not make it so, whilst Malak having taken power and said to be a lightsaber prodigy, is somehow defeated by a 6 month retrained Jedi.

He was described as plenty powerful with or without the mind wipe. The rest of that is pure gameplay speculation.

Well i percieved Revan as an average Jedi Master about the end of Kotor, but its speculation, we never truly knew how powerful Revan was at that point, so its even harder to quantify Malak's power, however he did lose with everything in his favour

Malak could be behind a bunch of people of his time: Revan, Traya, Nihilus, arguably Exile, possibly Kavar (we don't know the specifics of their fight), Vodo, Exar Kun and Ulic could have beaten him 40 years earlier....

I don't know if we can consider Revan an average Jedi just based on Traya's words and opinions of him. He seemed to be a very powerful jedi master and "The chosen One" of his time, but that's my opinion until KOTOR III

Revan and Malak were the most powerful of their era.

Yea, I wouldn't consider either one of them average, especially Revan..

Yoda alone could take this. He's got around 20 times more training. Yoda demonstrated force powers in ROTS that have never been equal by Malak, such as when he used force push on that pod that he threw back at Sidious he brought it to a complete stop almost instantly. That would require a very large amount of power. Yoda also apparently had the highest midiclorian count in the PT Order, or else why would Obi-wan have mentioned Yoda when they tested Anakin? I doubt that Obi-wan has memorized the midiclorian count of every Master in the Order. Malak was the second most powerful in his time, maybe. Traya is better in my view. Anyway, Yoda has been the strongest in the galaxy for over the time of several decades, if not centuries. That's a lot more impressive then second or third strongest for a few years.

I think I heard someone say that Dooku was near the end of his life. That's very unlikely, as the human Vima Da-Boda lived to be over 200 years old and she was human.

While the Midichlorian argument is very faulty and really irrelevant to vs. fights because, as Illustrious said, they didn't start counting those til the post Ruusan era, everything else seems to be very accurate. Malak is not on par with Dooku nor Yoda.

Revan the Chosen One? The hell?

No that's the way I perceive it. He was the chosen one, the only one powerful enough to stop the ancient sith empire.. Hence he turned to the dark side because he felt that was the only way to do it.. And then he disappeared into the unknown regions to do it.. We'll see in KOTOR III

I doubt we'll see much of Revan in KOTOR III. Up till now, he has shown nothing to even consider linking him to divinity. And him being powerful doesn't count

Eh I don't know. He was the only besides Luke who joined the darkside to defeat it from within. That in my mind makes him very powerful. He was definitely the most powerful one of his time, but we can't quantify his power until KOTOR III which is in production and is said to finish the story of Revan.

Now that I think about it, I'm sure if Revan's even looking for the Ancient Sith... Something else, something deeper.

Maybe the Vong? The Vong were already mentioned in KotOR, Canderous spots a Vong scouting in the Outer Rim. Maybe when Revan was there, he discovered that they were planning an attack or something, and thus tried to rally the Galaxy to destroy them...

I personally think that Traya was the best of that time, I don't know why but neither Revan or Malak seemed very good to me. However we don't really know a lot about Revan. Can't wait til KOTOR lll, there will probably be a lot of him in that.

How do you know that? I think thKOTOR III should involve a totally new character with totally new locals and a totally new story. Revan need not apply.

Originally posted by Gamblor
Now that I think about it, I'm sure if Revan's even looking for the Ancient Sith... Something else, something deeper.

Maybe the Vong? The Vong were already mentioned in KotOR, Canderous spots a Vong scouting in the Outer Rim. Maybe when Revan was there, he discovered that they were planning an attack or something, and thus tried to rally the Galaxy to destroy them... Perhaps it was the Vong. I doubt it though. If it was I would not think Traya would refer to them as "The true Sith". I highly doubt that the Vong can be compared to Darth Revan, Exar Kun, Ulic and Marka. They did not conquer the Star Wars galaxy because of Luke and a hundred Jedi. Imagine the powerful force users of that era and years before.

It's tough to quantify the power of beings that aren't of the force. And no, it was stated that Revan went to the outer rim to stop the ancient sith empire who, he thought, posed a huge threat to the Republic.

I am not sure whether Revan was "truly" corrupted... Luke was nearly corrupted.

He did plan to the attack the Republic but keep its infrastructure intact. In fact Revan never promoted the destruction of worlds such as Telos. It was all Malak.

He seemed more of a "dark side" idealist, than a Sith Lord. In order to save the galaxy, he would have to conquer it (said by Kreia). That being said, in power he can compare to many Sith lords.

He's nearly like Dooku, minus being manipulated by Palpatine.

How does Revan, an ancient "Sith Lord", compare at all with Dooku? I would like your opinion on this.

Revan wasn't an Ancient Sith Lord. That last one alive was Naga Sadow.

I hate it when people say that people weren't corrupted, even though they really were. Just because Revan didn't destroy the Republic's infrastructure doesn't mean that he wasn't corrupted, just that he was still planning for the future. And I really doubt that you have to order the destruction of a world to be evil. His massacre at Malachor V is enough to make me think he was evil. Luke was evil, to, as he couldn't turn away from the Darkside.

I agree with you on one thing though, how does Dooku compare with Revan?

How does Revan, an ancient "Sith Lord", compare at all with Dooku? I would like your opinion on this.

He's more like a sophisticated political idealist rather than butchering madmen.

Glentract, isn't Kun the last of the "ancient" Sith lords? Or are you talking about the TRUE Sith lords.

Glentract, what I meant was that Revan is an Ancient Sith Lord in COMPARSISON to Dooku. He fought in a war 5000 years before Dooku was even sucking on his mother's titties.

How can you justify the fact that Revan was corrupted. I agree that the dark side tends to have a corrupting influence, but Revan was never brutal in his tactics. He knew the Ancient Sith were out there, and it has been stated dozens of times in the game, and in these forums, that he wanted to conquer the Republic to protect it from its enemies.



Ah I see. However I can't help but feel Dooku's goals were more... selfish.

Revan turned to the darkside for a purpose, a reason.. Yes, he wanted to conquer the republic to protect it from the ancient sith empire.

Really it depends on how you look at it.

Revan saw the Darkside and knew it for it was, but he considered the sacrifce worth preparing the Republic against the Sith. His path was ruthless, but practical. It's the difference between doing what is right and what is smart. What Revan did was morally wrong, but the smart thing to do.

The Jedi Counsel of the time was too hesitant to take action and was ignorant of the true danger that had presented itself. They refused to take action against the Mandalorians for fear of a conflict so soon after the previous Sith War with Exar Kun.

How do you think this would look to Revan? Revan who had railled the Jedi to follow him and defeated the Mandalorians. I believe that during the war that Revan eventually began to view the the Jedi Counsel with disgust at their lack of action and cowardance.

Kreia herself made reference to this, when she claimed that during the war Revan and Malak began to despise weakness. They eventually came to view the Jedi as weak and unprepared to deal with the threat of the Ancient Sith.

Now as for if Revan was corrupted than yes I believe he was corrupted to a point; however, I do not he believe he was corrupted fully like Malak was. GL pretty much made it clear that one cannot touch the Darkside and come away unchanged.

Revan was still pretty damn cold-hearted. One particular instance that proves this is the terminal on Kashyyk. Revan would sacrifice countless innocent lives to initiate a good attack on the enemy. As effective as his methods were, they seemed a bit cold.

He was using the ends justify the means philosophy.

The end result would be for the best. You could hardly blame him, he was the best at a time when the Jedi Order was crumbling to peices, the Mandalorian onslaught nearly wiped out the Republic, and the threat of an Ancient Sith Empire preparing its forces. Maybe a complacent Jedi order isn't the best for a time like that ... He had to do what had to be done.

Originally posted by Gamblor
Revan was still pretty damn cold-hearted. One particular instance that proves this is the terminal on Kashyyk. Revan would sacrifice countless innocent lives to initiate a good attack on the enemy. As effective as his methods were, they seemed a bit cold.

Well he was looking through the eyes of battle-hardened commander. War had forced him to look at everything as mere game peices on a playing board so to speak.

Originally posted by Akechi Misuhide
Well he was looking through the eyes of battle-hardened commander. War had forced him to look at everything as mere game peices on a playing board so to speak.

I second this.

I also concur

the last Ancient Sith was Sadow, the last Dark Lord holding the Ancient Sith legacy was Kun.

Revan was the most powerful of his time, but it doesnt quantify how powerful he was during kotor, he may have been average or above, but he was certianly at a master level.

That's what I hate about KOTOR, it was so damn inconclusive in terms of Revan's power...

Originally posted by w00t2112
the last Ancient Sith was Sadow, the last Dark Lord holding the Ancient Sith legacy was Kun.

Revan was the most powerful of his time, but it doesnt quantify how powerful he was during kotor, he may have been average or above, but he was certianly at a master level.

I consider Revan "ancient" becuase his entire story took place 4000 years before Movie era. However, in terms of Sith he is not one of the Ancient Sith such as Marka and Sadow. The Sith of his time are indeed radicaly different from the Ancient Sith. Much less ceromonial and far more modern in appearance.

And Far weaker

FAR far weaker

Originally posted by zod360
Well I interpreted the fight as a win for Yoda and that Dooku knew he couldn't win so he departed. He is clearly not better than Sidous who was not only able to deal with Yoda much better then Dooku was, but was also able to kill 3 jedi masters in a matter of seconds. And in my opinion, Windu was clearly in control of his battle with Sidious and seemed to be in such harmony with the force that he just fought perfectly.

Okay fine.


Sidious knew he couldn't win so he tried to leave.

Sounds just as plausible as what you said.


Dooku left because:

A) He didn't have the time to fight.

B) He didn't want to risk it.


The Jedis Mission is to halt the Sith to go through with future planning. It isn't the Siths job to sit around and duel when they have other Orders to follow through with.



Sidious had the high ground for almost half of the fight with Yoda. He had an advantage. And like you said, you thought Yoda got the upper hand right?

Like I said, Dooku has bested Mace before so the chances of him having the capabilities to do it again are high, especially now that he is a Sith and can fully administer his talents.

Because of course Nihilus who consumes the force where he walks and Traya who instantPWNED three Jedi masters in the span of 0.2 seconds are really just jokes.