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Now..ROTS Anakin/Vader vs. ESB Vader?
Obviously younger vader is WAY more mobile and agile, but ESB Vader I think is more comfortable with the darkside.

Theyre fighting in Mos Isley...(spelling?)

ROTS Anakin...GL said that ROTS is where we see Anakin at his peak.

Peak in what? Peak Force powers? Peak saber skills? Peak of force powers and saber skills? Peak in lean body mass? "Peak" alone doesn't mean much.

I believe GL said that when Anakin turned to the darkside, he became the most powerful force user in the galaxy. That didn't really help him much since he didn't have nearly enough knowledge, but we know he would overwelcome ESB Vader in Saber combat. However ESB Vader is superior to him in the force.

So GL said that Anakin became stronger then Yoda or Sidious? LMAO. What was GL thinking?

Potentially yes, that's what GL said.. But that potential was useless since Anakin had no real knowledge of the force.

Yes, GL said ROTS is when we see Anakin at his peak. he also said OT Vader is "a shell of his old self." ROTS Anakin wins quite easily, there's no way Vader could keep up with his speed, Anakin's Force powers are at least equal to Vader's. Plus he's in extremely good shape from fighting in the war. he managed to defeat Count Dooku. The only thing ESB Vader has over him is patience, but Anakin has enough patience to beat Vader.

Like I said, at his peak in what?

Vader has far greater force powers then Anakin and we learned in RODV that Vader's style didn't need to be fast because the raw power behind each swing made any atempt by faster people to slash him useless as they were knocked away.

Right, except Vader wouldn't be able to keep up with Anakin during the duel. I've already said though that ESB Vader's force powers surpass Anakin's.

I don't think that Mech Vader is more powerful in the force than human Vader per se, i think he's just more comfortable or used to it more. I think that even though he was still mean and vicious, young Vader (or Anakin) had more raw anger that intensified his darkside powers, mech Vader just knows how to use them and can control his anger better. So i think it would be a duelist vs wizard type...and you saw what happened the first time Anakin met Dooku...pwned. So its hard to say given those points (to me) and take in account they're fighting on Tattoine amongst the sand where its still fresh in young Vaders mind how much he hates it and "doesn't like the sand". if YV tried jumping at MV, i think he would fling him into a wall. But then, thats only one part of the duel.

Of course he's more powerful in the force. He's had 20 years to study man.. Anakin didn't know a damn thing in ROTS except that cute force grip.

And when has Vader ever shown force skills greater then that?

He's shown he could force choke somebody through a tv monitor while speaking. If anything we see for sure that he has a greater control of the force than Anakin.

thats what i said, he was more comfortable with it, he knew how to control it, although I believe that young Vader had more raw power.

Potentially yes, but young vader didn't have the knowledge. ESB Vader had 20 years of force knowledge and tutelage from the Emperor under his belt.

Does it actually mention anywhere that vader became physically slower after ROTS, because until there is proof that Vader became slower (in a book or something) I am inclined to believe that Vader was physically just like Grievous.

Except with force abilities

Originally posted by zod360
Does it actually mention anywhere that vader became physically slower after ROTS, because until there is proof that Vader became slower (in a book or something) I am inclined to believe that Vader was physically just like Grievous.

Uhm yeah there is prove, ever seen the movies? You know, A new Hope, Empire strikes Back, Return of the Jedi? You should try watching them sometime.

That is not direct concrete proof. I don't need to remind you of the argument about technology do I?

That argument is illogical, the movies are the most canon in terms of star wars. Vader became slow as a machine, it's obvious.

Yes the movies are the highest form of canon, and by saying whta I just said, I'm not going against the movies. I am simply interpreting them differently.

Why don't you use logic. Vader was referred to as "a shell of his former self". He's more machine than man now. All of these quotes. Of course as a machine he is going to move a lot slower than he did as a human who had potential.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why don't you use logic. Vader was referred to as "a shell of his former self". He's more machine than man now. All of these quotes. Of course as a machine he is going to move a lot slower than he did as a human who had potential.

By your logic Grievous should have been as slow as ****.

Grievous had 4 arms man and he was still slower than 1 of obiwan's.

What are you talking about. Grievous was way faster then Obi Wan

Is that why Obiwan had no problems with Grievous? And Grievous was all robot, while Anakin was most machine, part man, big difference.

had they had better choreographers back then and a better athelete in the suit, and not an old man, the fight would havebeen better. That half ass excuse that GL gave was to cover his ass on why the newer fights looked better.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
had they had better choreographers back then and a better athelete in the suit, and not an old man, the fight would havebeen better. That half ass excuse that GL gave was to cover his ass on why the newer fights looked better.

Amen. I've said similar things before. The excuses just don't add up. Saying that Obi Wan was an old man and thats why he was slow was an excuse he had. Then he introduced Count Dooku who was full of flips. They just don't make sense.

You're using that choreography excuse again? Lol

Well, it doesn't make sense. To have an old crippled Obi Wan and say he can't fight because he's old. Then to have Dooku, who is older, to be flipping around all whilly-nilly. Especially considering the fact that Obi Wan has been studying the force alone for the past 20 years, and Dooku had been involved with political campaigning.

dont forget Yoda...you yourself said that getting old has nothing to do with abilities. What you learn in the force makes up for lack of physical abilities, right? Thats what you said. So the ONLY reason left, is choreography...and you know it.

not much of a competition, rots kills esb no problem, he's fater, more powerful and much more maneuverable, vader only has intelligence and experience going for him, which isn't enough to kepp him from getting owned.

Omfg.. Are you people for real? I respect your opinions but you're talking out of your asses. ROTS was POTENTIALLY more powerful, that is ALL. He could maneuver more sure, and that's why he would most likely defeat ESB Vader in a saber duel. However ESB Vader shows perfect control over the force, while having been tutored by Palpatine for 20 years, while ROTS Anakin is a whiny little kid..

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
had they had better choreographers back then and a better athelete in the suit, and not an old man, the fight would havebeen better. That half ass excuse that GL gave was to cover his ass on why the newer fights looked better.
Ok, I'm glad that you think your opinion is higher canon than GL's word. However it's not. You have no way of knowing that the fights would have been better if they remade them.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, it doesn't make sense. To have an old crippled Obi Wan and say he can't fight because he's old. Then to have Dooku, who is older, to be flipping around all whilly-nilly. Especially considering the fact that Obi Wan has been studying the force alone for the past 20 years, and Dooku had been involved with political campaigning.
Ok, Obi-Wan had been studying the force. Had he been practicing with a lightsaber? Had he been doing acrobatics in his cave in Tatooine? No. Dooku had been doing that stuff. He had been training as Sidious's apprentice.

Good grief, GL has flip flopped so many times it makes me sick, they didnt have the imagination, creativity, know how, or technology to make the old duels as "fancy" as the new ones. so I think its completely plausible for esb vader to defeat anakin, with the force alone.

canon this GL that, excuses excuses

ESB Vader would win. He could overpower ROTS Anakin in a vicious saber duel. However, the fight would be significantly easier because Vader would use his mastery over the force to take down Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth243
Good grief, GL has flip flopped so many times it makes me sick, they didnt have the imagination, creativity, know how, or technology to make the old duels as "fancy" as the new ones. so I think its completely plausible for esb vader to defeat anakin, with the force alone.

canon this GL that, excuses excuses

In that case

Vader had a very hard time against Maul in a fight, almost died had to kill himself to win, and he could only do that because he hated himself more then anything else in the universe. ROTS Anakin is far superior to Maul, he would destroy him in a fight. And If Maul could give Vader a hard time...

Nevermind of course that, that entire story isn't canon. But those are just excuses right?

So I guess its canon too that some of the most powerful masters of the PT era got scared one of single guy with a blaster?

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/republic/republic_41_10.jpg

Your excuse does not make any sense. Its not canon therefor it is not true. Simple as that.

Lucas did say Vader is a shell of his former self but that could mean a lot of things. Lucas may not have been referring to Vader being a lesser Anakin. And watch ESB again. They don't move slow. Vader and Luke are going pretty fast.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, it doesn't make sense. To have an old crippled Obi Wan and say he can't fight because he's old. Then to have Dooku, who is older, to be flipping around all whilly-nilly. Especially considering the fact that Obi Wan has been studying the force alone for the past 20 years, and Dooku had been involved with political campaigning.

Flipping around all whilly-nilly??? He did one flip in the entire Star Wars. And that doesn't mean everyone can be as strong as he when they're old. I just saw a picture of an old lady going in a split, "wow, everybody must be able to do so, it makes no sense that my grandpa is lying in a hospital when he is 10 years younger than that lady".
Dooku had not been studying politics all the time, he was Sidious apprentice, he had studied the dark side. And Sidious did not have much time either still he was able to overcome the greatest jedi in the order. Obi-Wan did not studie much at all, he did not want any attention from the Empire, and he might have known that they could have sensed him. Since we don't know it's hard to say, but Obi-Wan was in exile and was hiding from the Empire AND was weaker as we saw in the movie, so it is much more likley that he didn't practise much lightsaber fighting or new froce powers.

Depends.

Anakin thinking clearly and using his rage effectively is a deadly thing. He killed Count Dooku.

But he's emotional. Hell, he was so overwhelmed by grief and stupidity on Mustafar that Obi-Wan beat him (not insulting Obi, but he got tossed around like a toy by Dooku).

And yes, the choreography was better in the PT... but Vader fights damn good in ESB... I believe there's a professional fencer behind the mask, not Prowse in that scene, and he fights pretty fast. Just because he doesn't flip around like PT characters doesn't mean he's a slow, useless, clumbsy duelist. Mace was slow too, but he has power. And strength. Vader also has incredible strength. Massive strength.

In Shadows of the Emperor it says Vader wishes he could be what he once was. Physically, anyway, but never mentally.

There's a book called shadows of the emperor? Damn I have a lot of reading to do.

Shadows of the Empire? In that book he also says he's far more powerful than his Jedi self.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Ok, I'm glad that you think your opinion is higher canon than GL's word. However it's not. You have no way of knowing that the fights would have been better if they remade them.

Wow, I'm glad you can read so well. Find where I said "My opinion is higher canon than GL's word." First off, that very sentence in and of itself is ignorant and shows complete lack of thought. If something is my "opinion"...its just that..MY OPINION. It doesn't mean or even remotely imply that my word is higher than GL's. I said, I think GL is full of shit and that has been agreed upon by MANY other SW fans. Back then, they made the best with what they had. Simple. You have a big seemingly uncoordinated body builder in what I'm sure is a rather uncomfortable suit, and an man well into his 60's. Of course THEY are not gonna move well. Christopher Lee cant move that well. But now they have digital imaging whereby SFX teams can mask an actors face on another's body. BUT we're NOT talking about the actors, we're talking about the CHARACTERS. You say machines are slower right? Go run along side a car, motorcycle, or even a go-cart, and see if you can even remotely keep up. Chances are you can't. Now, in time where CGI technology is not yet available, and you have the "strongest good guy" and the "baddest bad guy" and they aren't moving as fast as they should, what are you going to say? Are you going to blame yourself for not being able to find a way around that problem, or are you going to blame it on an old man and a man in a suit?

Plus, Vader isn't a man in a suit...most of his lower body is cybernetic and by sheer physics, wouldn't be hindered by the restriction of non stretch pants. If anything, if he were trying to move, I'm sure a sharp metal leg would rip through some cheap pleather pants. So its not fair to compare a half man half machine being, with the way you, as a whole (I'm assuming) human with NO divine powers that help you physically, would feel inside a Darth Vader suit.

And again, I would say that Yoda was a TAD BIT older than OB1 was in ANH.

Vader lost allmost all his speed and maneuverability, if you read one of the novels it explains it better, as for becoming more powerful in the force, lets see, force powers are derived from midichlorians in the bloods, vader lost 4 limbs and had most of his skin burnt off meaning he lost almost all of his blood, therefore he would be weaker then if he had his full midichlorian count. vader suffers hardcore losses in maneuverability and speed, he loses to luke who swings his saber like a baseball bat, that in its self says all you need to know.

that bullshit midichlorian crap is based on ratios, not numerical totals. If Anakin had 20,000 in one drop of blood, which was more than Yoda, than him as a whole would totally dominate yoda. That also means, by that logic, that ANYONE physically bigger than Yoda, would have more. And i know what the big, flanneled one said, but midichlorians arent mentioned anywhere in the real, I mean original trilogy, so i try to take that into account. But even after being cut up, he still has more mass than Yoda and would still have a ratio of over 20,000.

And btw, those were two different movies, when Luke was swinging like a crazed fan at yankee stadium on bat day. We were talking about ESB Vader.

Gl's statement was that anakin lost a large amount of power after losing his limbs,(unfortunatley i can't provide you with a source)as even if we go by ratio's, the pure amount of blood in a humans bloodstream to that in yoda's would more then compensate for any difference in the ratios, if someone has half the midichlorians in his blood that yoda does but three times the amount of blood that'd make any charachter taller then 6 foot more powerful then yoda even if they had half the midichlorians per drop yoda does, wheras if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not.

yeah, so what does vader do in esb other then beat a farmboy who used his lightsaber like 4 times, once against a remote, once slashint an AT-AT and once just to stare at it, the only real use he gets was on dagobah which he fights a non moving target...what a challenge. In Rots he kills an academy full of jedi and many other jaw dropping feats, he was just much more capable without the armor, read the new book about vader, rise of a dark lord or some such, vader even admits to it.

right, but when Qui-Gon took a blood sample, it was just that...a sample. He didnt take all his blood and analyze it. Based on that one drop of blood, they were able to see that he had a count of over 20,000...more than Yoda. So how would they be able to make that determination if not by ratios?

"if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not."

what? Anakin had more blood than Yoda and had more...thereby definition would be more powerful (if given the opportunity). Size matters not...youre right, if you were going by total amount, then size WOULD matter, but by ratios, it wouldn't matter. cause someone the size of a midget could have the same amount of midichlorians per blood cell as Andre the giant, and they would be equal....do you see what i mean? So ratios are the way to go and does make more sense that way.

ROTS Anakin = 100% Force potential + fiercer and more agile but dumber.

TEBS Darth Vader = 80% (at most) Force potential + smarter but slower.

You do the math.

well they always say, "slow and steady wins the race." And what good is being fast and fierce if you don't know how to work with what you got?

Since Rex closed the other thread, I'd like to tell Glentract that I'm happy the Star Wars chronology said that. However GL said in one of his interviews, that he left that Plagueis thing specifically to the imagination of people at first, and then stated that nobody created Anakin except the force. So keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
right, but when Qui-Gon took a blood sample, it was just that...a sample. He didnt take all his blood and analyze it. Based on that one drop of blood, they were able to see that he had a count of over 20,000...more than Yoda. So how would they be able to make that determination if not by ratios?

"if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not."

what? Anakin had more blood than Yoda and had more...thereby definition would be more powerful (if given the opportunity). Size matters not...youre right, if you were going by total amount, then size WOULD matter, but by ratios, it wouldn't matter. cause someone the size of a midget could have the same amount of midichlorians per blood cell as Andre the giant, and they would be equal....do you see what i mean? So ratios are the way to go and does make more sense that way.

OMG, so they could never make extrapolations for a whole based upon an SRS!

Someone never took statistics and is speaking out of ignorance. If it were a ratio, it would be 20000 midi chlorians per .

It's 20000 midichlorians, that's what's meantioned.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku had not been studying politics all the time, he was Sidious apprentice, he had studied the dark side. And Sidious did not have much time either still he was able to overcome the greatest jedi in the order. Obi-Wan did not studie much at all, he did not want any attention from the Empire, and he might have known that they could have sensed him. Since we don't know it's hard to say, but Obi-Wan was in exile and was hiding from the Empire AND was weaker as we saw in the movie, so it is much more likley that he didn't practise much lightsaber fighting or new froce powers.
Thank you!

Except for the fact that you have no idea how long Sidious studied the dark side, but he did it enough that the dark side energies destroyed his flesh. And yes, he overcame Yoda from pure luck, and being bigger. He overcame Mace because of Anakin. And if Obi Wan didn't study, how did he learn how to become 1 with the force? IF you recall in part 3, Yoda said Obiwan had some studying to do during his isolation. There is NO proof that he was weaker. Actually it's proven that he was stronger as he was able to use mind trick we've never seen him use before, and Vader couldn't put him down until Obiwan let him.

Originally posted by Illustrious
OMG, so they could never make extrapolations for a whole based upon an SRS!

Someone never took statistics and is speaking out of ignorance. If it were a ratio, it would be 20000 midi chlorians per .

It's 20000 midichlorians, that's what's meantioned.

Who never took statistics? And by basic logic, it would appear that they were using a ratio. How would you project a full body amount if you didn't have the full mass of the subject? You would need his height, weight, stuff like that in order to come to that conclusion. Just a simple blood test can't give you all that information, and Qui-Gon didn't tell him. OB1 pulled up over 20,000 by a sample, so there would have to be that much in that amount of blood. Am I saying it wrong to where I'm not being understood? Seriously. I understand you can extrapolate, but you need more variables to make that an accurate estimation. Whatever, it doesn't even matter, it's not worth arguing about. And I'm not conceding, just don't want to argue about something that's not that important. We all have our own opinions and we can do so until (and i hate to say this) an "official" answer on whether or not its total or ratio. And yes I know, GL said that once cut and burnt he lost power, but that doesn't answer the question at hand.

Darth Subjekt, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Frobo and some others are making no sense. Frobo, do you think that when Anakin was hacked apart the midichlorians swam out into the lava and just left blood with a lower ratio of midichlorians? No. Complete nonsense.

Meh, I used to think Anakin wins, until I heard the ANH AC.

Apparently, it's:

Palpatine > Vader = Obi-Wan > Yoda > whatever

Yep, GL says Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy.

Huh

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Meh, I used to think Anakin wins, until I heard the ANH AC.

Apparently, it's:

Palpatine > Vader = Obi-Wan > Yoda > whatever

Yep, GL says Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy.
That's because in the OT, Yoda was sick and dying. Of course he wouldn't be stronger than Obi-Wan. He is more than 800 years older than Obi-Wan. In ROTS Yoda was the strongest, however in the OT he was really weak.

Weak physically, he was still superior in the force.

He wasn't sick until ROTJ. This takes place 4 years prior. 4 years is a good time.

Yeah, in Ep. V Yoda was playing on the rocks and was healthy to beat up artoo with a stick (one of my favorite scenes in all of the Star Wars saga).

And riding on Luke while swinging on vines...

Anakin would beat Vader CAUSE HES T3H CH0S3N 1 !!!!11

Originally posted by tdtd
Weak physically, he was still superior in the force.
According to GL, Obi-Wan was the best.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Jedi
Anakin would beat Vader CAUSE HES T3H CH0S3N 1 !!!!11

well technically he's still the chosen one as Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
well technically he's still the chosen one as Vader.
Well even more technically, Vader is more of the chosen one because he actually does defeat the Sith by throwing the Emperor into that reactor shaft.

uh...that was my point buddy...but thanks for the reiteration.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Anakin would beat Vader CAUSE HES T3H CH0S3N 1 !!!!11