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all the masses of characters versus the masses of characters, or simply which did you like better?

OT wins every time, they have the cooler characters and the by far superior army's.. .The Jedi wouldn't be able to make a huge difference as they would still be destroyed by the Imperial navy.

Hmmm, interesting, Fishy. As I seem to remember all the armys from the OT sucked and were slow. The turrets on ships weren't nearly as fast as in the OT. The Rebels' best pilot, Luke, was crap compared to most of the average clone pilots, who did flips and a whole bunch of eyecandy moves, while Luke just flew down a trench with turrets shooting over his head where they can't reach him. The OT armys suck because they aren't bobbing and weaving every second. And don't blame the technology of the 1970's and 1980's, what we see in the movies is the highest form of canon.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Hmmm, interesting, Fishy. As I seem to remember all the armys from the OT sucked and were slow. The turrets on ships weren't nearly as fast as in the OT. The Rebels' best pilot, Luke, was crap compared to most of the average clone pilots, who did flips and a whole bunch of eyecandy moves, while Luke just flew down a trench with turrets shooting over his head where they can't reach him. The OT armys suck because they aren't bobbing and weaving every second. And don't blame the technology of the 1970's and 1980's, what we see in the movies is the highest form of canon.

We never see a real fleet battle from close up, we see a few fighters. Even in ROTJ the Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers just sit there... What we see the capitol ships do is nothing compared to what they could do.

Those ships however are an incredibly amount more powerful then every ship in the OT. They have more weapons they are bigger faster and they are part of an army that had years to develop. It would be illogical for a fleet to become weaker, and actually everything in EU says a SSD or even a SD is far more powerful then any kind of PT ship.

Just look at the difference between a Star Destroyer

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/imperialstardestroyer/index.html

and a Trade federation cruiser

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tradefederationcruiser/index.html

It can not compare, An SSD is even bigger then an SD, it would ravage through the Trade Federation ships... Who were on par with everything the republic had. The PT would be destroyed in naval combat. The ground weapons were also always younger versions of what the OT movies had. The OT had far superior weapons and ships. It did have weaker troops, but the PT only has 1.2 million clones to fight...

The Death Star had about a sixth of that on board of it... 1 battle station, granted a huge one had more then a sixth of that, and the Death Star sure as hell wasn't a Sixth of the imperial navy.

Well, we don't see any of that in the movies. And if i can't apply this policy to individual characters (Obi Wan, Luke, Darth Vader), then why can you apply it to ships, which were much less visually impressive in the OT.

Prequels, easy.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, we don't see any of that in the movies. And if i can't apply this policy to individual characters (Obi Wan, Luke, Darth Vader), then why can you apply it to ships, which were much less visually impressive in the OT.

Because we never saw a fleet battle, we never saw a Star destroyer go all out against an enemy.

Episode 6. Ackbar leads the Rebels against star destroyers when the Death Star shields are still up.

And the Star Destroyers are ordered to stand down and wait...

Indeed. Episode VI is not a good example of fleet battles. ROTS provides the best fleet battle we see in Star Wars, for most of the space fights in ANH and ROTJ are heavily centered on the Millennium Falcon and X/Y/A/B-Wings. In ROTS, we actually take a look at cruiser vs. cruiser.

However, the SD and SSD dominate the PT ships. Grievous' flagship in comparison to an SSD is toast. And Grievous' flagship was probably the top of the Confederate Navy. The Republic Navy did not vary much from the original SD model, but the OT models are bound to be better, seeing as it is twenty years more of technological advances and such.

Go look up statistics on Wikipedia or the Databank.

Anyways, clonetroopers vs. stormtroopers & rebel commandos...hmm...while the clones have better training (it would seem), there are millions more stormtroopers, and throwing in the rebel troops is overkill.

The OT army pwns. Even if the Confederacy had 20 of GG's flagship it couldn't take down a single SSD.

Not that Grievous' flagship is all that great. It gets knocked out pretty easy, it seems.

I know guys, I was being sarcastic. I was poking fun at the fact that you guys say I can't use the 70's/80's technology as an excuse when it comes to individual characters (ie Luke, Obi Wan, and Vader), but you can use it for ships. I realize you haven't come out and said it, but the naval fights in the PT are much more impressive due to...anyone?...technology.

tie

Err...you can't use it as an excuse for anything, in-universe. When it comes to the movies themselves, then yes, of course you can use it. But movie-making technology is highly irrelevant to in-universe.

The naval fights are more impressive because in ROTJ...we don't look at the naval fights. In fact, I don't remember even seeing a Star Destroyer fire shots at a Mon Calamari cruiser. The closest we get to naval fight is the very start of ANH.

And I mean cruisers and destroyers by naval fights. I dunno if starfighters apply.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I know guys, I was being sarcastic. I was poking fun at the fact that you guys say I can't use the 70's/80's technology as an excuse when it comes to individual characters (ie Luke, Obi Wan, and Vader), but you can use it for ships. I realize you haven't come out and said it, but the naval fights in the PT are much more impressive due to...anyone?...technology.

I Agree. The Galactic Civil War was far bloodier in space and on land. if it was up-to-date, it would be worse than ROTS.

I was wondering when someone would create a thread like this, I would have done it, but then again... the answer was obvious.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I know guys, I was being sarcastic. I was poking fun at the fact that you guys say I can't use the 70's/80's technology as an excuse when it comes to individual characters (ie Luke, Obi Wan, and Vader), but you can use it for ships. I realize you haven't come out and said it, but the naval fights in the PT are much more impressive due to...anyone?...technology.
The ships are better in the OT, because GL said they had better technology than in the PT. We never actually saw the ships fight in a real battle, so we can't say that they suck. The lightsaber duels are bad, because...
1. Visually, they are slow and unimpressive. (Plus Luke's baseball bat swing).
2. GL has even stated that PT guys were better. I can't remember the exact quote but he said something along the lines of "the only people we see fight in 4,5, and 6 is an old man, a farmboy, and a cyborg. The PT is lightsaber dueling at its prime." He said something like that.

even though I prefer the OT to the PT, the PT takes this one.

Not only do they have the clones, but ALL those battle droids and super battle droids. The OT has the DS, which Luke piloted and destroyed, but Anakin was a far better pilot, and ONE single ship took out the SSD by flying through the main control room...send a droid who has no knowledge of suicide and do it again. Plus ALL the jedi and the amount of Sith...the OT couldn't survive. In those terms you're talking, 3 OB1's, 3 Sidious, 2 1/2 Anakins, so on and so forth. At least thats the way I interrupt it. All the characters in the OT that are in the PT are younger and more lively.

So I hate to say it, really, but PT owns.

I don't see anything in the PT standing against 25,000 ISDs. One single ISD is bigger than anything in the PT, with more turbolaser batteries and turrets.

Originally posted by Fishy
We never see a real fleet battle from close up, we see a few fighters. Even in ROTJ the Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers just sit there... What we see the capitol ships do is nothing compared to what they could do.

Those ships however are an incredibly amount more powerful then every ship in the OT. They have more weapons they are bigger faster and they are part of an army that had years to develop. It would be illogical for a fleet to become weaker, and actually everything in EU says a SSD or even a SD is far more powerful then any kind of PT ship.

Just look at the difference between a Star Destroyer

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/imperialstardestroyer/index.html

and a Trade federation cruiser

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tradefederationcruiser/index.html

It can not compare, An SSD is even bigger then an SD, it would ravage through the Trade Federation ships... Who were on par with everything the republic had. The PT would be destroyed in naval combat. The ground weapons were also always younger versions of what the OT movies had. The OT had far superior weapons and ships. It did have weaker troops, but the PT only has 1.2 million clones to fight...

The Death Star had about a sixth of that on board of it... 1 battle station, granted a huge one had more then a sixth of that, and the Death Star sure as hell wasn't a Sixth of the imperial navy.

but in those two links you posted...take a look at the weapons category...

The Imperial Navy would just destroy them easily. Plus we haven't even discussed the matter of super weapons. The Death Stars would totally anihilate them. And those of you who want the PT to win don't say they can take it out with one of the PT's best pilots, because they can't, remember it's ALL, so the Imperial navy would have ISDs swarming around the Death Stars. The PT pilots would not be able to penetrate their defences.

Keep in mind that the Imperial fleet has to be able to span the ENTIRE Galaxy. The PT fleets did not do so.

Invisible Hand Weaponry-
14 quad turbolaser turrets; 34 dual laser cannons; 2 ion cannons; 12 point-defense ion cannons; 102 proton torpedo tubes

Star Destroyers Weaponry-
60 turbolaser batteries, 60 ion cannon batteries, and 10 tractor beam

Super Star Destroyer Weaponry-
200 heavy and light turbolaser batteries, 50 concussion missile launchers, 100 ion cannons, and 20 tractor beam projectors

And even then, you have to take into consideration SIZE, because more weapons means squat when the size of the ship you're firing on is too big to just give it a broadside. The SSD was 19,000 meters, whereas the Invisible Hand was just roughly over 1000 meters.

The SSD crushes the Invisible Hand like God smites h4xx0rz.

So REX, is that the confirmed size of an Executor? Has the debate been settled?

no, and I dont think it will be settled. Ok...the SSD was BIG...but look at the size of the ship that took it out. And again, Anakin is a WAY better pilot then Luke, so YES he could take out the DS.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
no, and I dont think it will be settled. Ok...the SSD was BIG...but look at the size of the ship that took it out. And again, Anakin is a WAY better pilot then Luke, so YES he could take out the DS.

If they could find the flaw in the first Death Star that is...

Taking down the second Death Star would probably be easier if they could find it, because jedi would absolutely destroy that shield base. But then again would they find the second death star? And even if they would, would it make a difference in the war? Because the Imperial fleet would have destroyed the PT fleet all that would have remained would have been a phathetic rebellion with a lot more Jedi in it then in normal times. But I don't see even ten thousand Jedi really chaning the tide of this war.

ok, even in that scenario, the rebels have already beaten them before. So why not again? And 10,000 Jedi vs. ONE noob Jedi? C'mon man. How would they NOT find the DS? Its huge. And I think Jedi and/or Old Republic would manage to find the weakness of the first one. But it seems everyone is forgetting about all the battle droids, their ships and all the self contained flying droids i.e. Vulture droids, buzz droids, etc. Plus when the Republic was fighting the Confederacy of Indies, they were just that...fighting each other...put ALL those ships together PLUS all the ones NOT at Corrusant, and it doesn't matter how big the Imperial Navy is, because there's strength in numbers. And don't forget about all the home worlds armies and such, Naboo star fighters and the cats from Geonosis. man its unlimited damn near. All people keep saying is that the Imperial Fleet would crush the PT fleets, but not saying why other than.."they're bigger". So the f*ck what. Size matters not...remember?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
ok, even in that scenario, the rebels have already beaten them before. So why not again? And 10,000 Jedi vs. ONE noob Jedi? C'mon man. How would they NOT find the DS? Its huge. And I think Jedi and/or Old Republic would manage to find the weakness of the first one. But it seems everyone is forgetting about all the battle droids, their ships and all the self contained flying droids i.e. Vulture droids, buzz droids, etc. Plus when the Republic was fighting the Confederacy of Indies, they were just that...fighting each other...put ALL those ships together PLUS all the ones NOT at Corrusant, and it doesn't matter how big the Imperial Navy is, because there's strength in numbers. And don't forget about all the home worlds armies and such, Naboo star fighters and the cats from Geonosis. man its unlimited damn near. All people keep saying is that the Imperial Fleet would crush the PT fleets, but not saying why other than.."they're bigger". So the f*ck what. Size matters not...remember?

The PT clone army had 1.2 million troops. 1.2 million... All the extra army's aren't important even if they did fight they were weaker and they weren't the most important part in the war. The republic relied on 1.2 million clones to do most of the fighting.

One single Star Destroyer had 37.000 troops times 25.000 star destroyers = 92.5 million toops. Flying Star Destroyers alone. Then you have the people that fly all the other ships in the universe which is a lot. More then 5 million people controlling and flying the two death stars.

And like said the weapons just a few years after the clone wars could have destroyed the droid army's in a matter of weaks. The Empire has these weapons. The CIS stands no chance the republic army stands no chance, its so grossly outnumbered by just one group of the Imperial army. If you would add the rest they would be outnumbered like 200 to 1...

Now those Jedi of the PT are nice and impressive, but I don't see how Jedi would stand a chance against a weapon that can destroy people from space against the ISD's and ISSD's not to mention all the other ships. The Imperial navy easily has the fire power to destroy entire planets and it has the motivation to do it. Besides the Jedi suck as generals and most of them can't stand up against droids and or clones. They will be completely destroyed by the massive Imperial Navy.

Unless of course they would come up with small strike teams and take out the key military leaders of the Empire, but Sidious is more then a match for most of them as is Vader to a lot of them. Only a group of a dozen or so at once or a few of the most powerful would stand a chance, and with the protection both Vader and Sidious have I don't see them taking out the Empire its leaders.

well, anything you read in books is irrelevant. This is ep 1,2,&3 vs. 4, 5, &6...those books or anything in the books aren't mentioned in the movies.

As far as the DS...vader even said, "Don't be so proud of this technological terror you've created. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the force." Now that might not be a word for word quote, but he said it and its true. So having THAT many Force users would topple any chances by the Empire to use the DS. And you say that they would be outnumbered right? Well I'm sure ALL the PT would outnumber the rebel alliance, and they owned the Empire themselves.

Mace alone was owning Palps, throw in Yoda and the other more powerful jedi, he doesn't stand a chance. And with strike teams, Vader and Sids cant be everywhere at once. Divide and conquer. I'm sorry, but by almost every possible logic, the empire gos down.

Even though this is not true, where did I even use books? Not like it matters because those books are part of who they are and the people that lived in that time and therefor they matter.



The rebel alliance was fighting a hide and seek war, the Seperatist forces would be unable to do it, and 1.2 million clones and 10.000 Jedi do not outnumber the alliance, not to mention that the alliance still had superior tech. And the army's of the PT were also not created for small strikes they were created for lang space warfare, they would not work well against the Empire, and those army's would be hard pressed to function as rebel army's, like the alliance did. They would have been completely destroyed. Not to mention the fact that they won't go into a rebel hide and seek war right away, they will try to fight first and they will be owned incredibly hard.



you place to much trust in those Jedi, they were unable to stop Dooku and Palps against a weaker army, unable to destroy a weaker army lead by lesser people. Besides how would any of the Jedi reach Palps?

Originally posted by Fishy
Even though this is not true, where did I even use books? Not like it matters because those books are part of who they are and the people that lived in that time and therefor they matter.

You mentioned something about a Vader book where in the beginnig it states that had the old republic had the weapons for droids back then, the war would have been won in a matter of weeks....something like that. And no, if those type of weapons didn't exist in the movie, then they didnt exist period. They we never once mentioned.


The rebel alliance was fighting a hide and seek war, the Seperatist forces would be unable to do it, and 1.2 million clones and 10.000 Jedi do not outnumber the alliance, not to mention that the alliance still had superior tech.

ok...well where did all the alliance members come from? From the time and people of the PT era. So they did exist and were made up from different planets own armies. And Im sorry, but a bunch of "rebels" with no real means of massive funding, are NOT going to have weapons superior to weapons from only 19 years earlier. Our Military's weapons havnt change that drastically. Still primarily shoot 5.56 and 7.62 rounds. And the 50 cal's been around for more that 19 years. And the ENTIRE rebel Alliance resided on one remote area of Hoth...The entire PT spawned MANY different worlds. So yes, they would outnumber the alliance.

And the army's of the PT were also not created for small strikes they were created for lang space warfare, they would not work well against the Empire, and those army's would be hard pressed to function as rebel army's, like the alliance did.

ok how do you figure that? Where were all these special rebel training grounds that enabled them to learn a "special" way to fight against a massive enemy? They didnt have them, so again they got most of their training from people from the PT era. And soldiers are trained to adapt to the surroundings and situations, so yes they could very easily adjust to those fighting needs and assemble small strike forces. The Army wasnt made to have small strike teams originally, but now they have SF and Rangers...adapting.

They would have been completely destroyed. Not to mention the fact that they won't go into a rebel hide and seek war right away, they will try to fight first and they will be owned incredibly hard.



you place to much trust in those Jedi, they were unable to stop Dooku and Palps against a weaker army, unable to destroy a weaker army lead by lesser people. Besides how would any of the Jedi reach Palps?

Cause Dooku ran like a b!tch cause he knew he couldn't beat yoda. And they were winning the war until Anakin turned and caught them off balance, and that dumbass Order 66. Had anyone gone to Mustafar, they could have stopped the droid army, much like a 9 year old anakin did in TPM. But the battle droids are more deadly and accurate then those bumbling stormtrooper bastards. The entire Death Star couldn't stop a Pirate, farmboy, princess and a wookie from escaping. So much for your numbers.

Look, I respect your opinion on this, but we're just not going to agree here no matter how much we go back and forth. I think the PT wins and you think otherwise...what can ya do, right?

ps, sorry fo the way i replyed, I couldnt get the quick quote to work and sperate your post.

OT wins. Although it wouldn't be easy.

episode 1,2,3 has mor jedi and more army(droids, jedi, clones, gungans. i go for 1, 2, and three.