U.S. raid kills Iraqi civilians

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anti-her0

botankus
Damn, if we started a thread every time a news headline broke out from Iraq, the bandwidth would be so large we'd need about 3 forums to keep all the threads!

soleran30
LOL now why doesn't this surprise me at ALL?

I read about insurgents killing people everyday in FAR FAR greater numbers......................Middle Eastern people killing each other in far greater numbers then something like this.

This is what you post! PUHLEASE wake up and if your gonna post this make sure you post insurgent casualties and middle eastern deaths by their own "people."

botankus
Or how about create a "Posts by Noobs who Joined KMC To Post One Point And Then Disappear Forever" thread??

Wesker
Well, when you use bombs and the enemy hides among the innocent, this DOES happen. I like how this gets its own thread, but we lose a handful of US troops every day, not to mention hostage situations from all allied nations.

Fishy
Seeing as this happens every day I really don't see how this is even slightly important. It happens, shit like this happens in a war, sucks for the people that survived and remain but well its not really newsworthy.

anti-her0
lol gotta love yanks, never wanna admit when they do anything wrong but always like to point out what bad stuff others are doing.

Fishy
I said it was worthless too, and I live in the Netherlands... Got to love you people who just want the US to look even worse then it is.

anti-her0
Originally posted by Fishy
I said it was worthless too, and I live in the Netherlands... Got to love you people who just want the US to look even worse then it is.

so if this happened in holland and to your family, you would just accept it and move on?

Fishy
Originally posted by anti-her0
so if this happened in holland and to your family, you would just accept it and move on?

No, but if my country was in war and people would die by the dozens every day I wouldn't expect people to make a thread about this particulair incident it in some online forum...

botankus
Originally posted by anti-her0
lol gotta love yanks, never wanna admit when they do anything wrong but always like to point out what bad stuff others are doing.

It was a bad thing, and I'm a Yank (even in North Carolina by somebody's standards, apparently). You're missing the point. I know you've only been a KMC member for about five minutes, but take the time to understand how the GDF forum works before throwing yourself into the ring.

Try the Pirates of the Carribean forum for about a month or two (oh, God that was cruel)...that should be a good warm-up.

PVS
Originally posted by botankus
Try the Pirates of the Carribean forum for about a month or two

damn thats MEAN!!!!!!!!!!! laughing out loud

Wesker
lmao

Not teh PotC!

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by anti-her0
lol gotta love yanks, never wanna admit when they do anything wrong but always like to point out what bad stuff others are doing.

lol gotta love canucks, always looking for bad stuff to trash the yanks.

meep-meep
I think the only way to solve civilian casualties in war would be to change the training that military personal recieve. If the training on how to be a soldier or marine had a more.....humanistic aproach (how it can be more humanistic is debatable) than I think the grunts wouldn't be so quick to blast everyone with a funny look.

The downside to this could be that more soldiers may die due to a more lax or careful demeanor. I don't think this not to be the case though. If our soldiers and marines are trained to be "personable" and to treat people not as criminals right off, in compliment to their other training I think they will better be able to assess situations. Being viewed as imposing and an aggressor usually only leads to conflict.

I understand that they need to be trained as killers. It is war after all but damnit how else are you going to avoid civilian casualities?

This could also help them with their transition back into civilian life when their contract is up.

Fishy
Originally posted by meep-meep
I think the only way to solve civilian casualties in war would be to change the training that military personal recieve. If the training on how to be a soldier or marine had a more.....humanistic aproach (how it can be more humanistic is debatable) than I think the grunts wouldn't be so quick to blast everyone with a funny look.

The downside to this could be that more soldiers may die due to a more lax or careful demeanor. I don't think this not to be the case though. If our soldiers are trained to be "personable" and to treat people not as criminals right off, in compliment to their other training I think they will better be able to assess situations. Being viewed as imposing and an aggressor usually only leads to conflict.

This could also help them with their transition back into civilian life when their contract is up.

Its not that hard really the Dutch army is trained in a way like what you are talking about. They still carry weapons but they have them pointed at the ground, they shoot warning shots if necessary but try to talk to people first. They don't go around strip searching random people in the street. In the Iraqi province where the Dutch are its actually quite peaceful one or two incidents since we arrived.

But then again, the Dutch people are in a province that didn't like Saddam anyways and we didn't really invade the country so the hatred from them would be a lot less... How this technique would work in a place like Baghdad is debatable.

meep-meep
Originally posted by Fishy
Its not that hard really the Dutch army is trained in a way like what you are talking about. They still carry weapons but they have them pointed at the ground, they shoot warning shots if necessary but try to talk to people first. They don't go around strip searching random people in the street. In the Iraqi province where the Dutch are its actually quite peaceful one or two incidents since we arrived.

But then again, the Dutch people are in a province that didn't like Saddam anyways and we didn't really invade the country so the hatred from them would be a lot less... How this technique would work in a place like Baghdad is debatable.

Yeah. I'm pretty positive soldiers and marines in the U.S. are still trained to point their rifles at the ground but as you say maybe that practice isn't very smart iin certain districts.

Is anyone here currently serving time in the U.S. military? Better yet is anyone here a grunt and does patrols in Iraq? That could be some great info...

Da preacher
It's a war outta there. So 13 civillians died. Big deal!

Maestro
Originally posted by botankus
Try the Pirates of the Carribean forum for about a month or two

Lmao, very harsh

meep-meep
Originally posted by Da preacher
It's a war outta there. So 13 civillians died. Big deal!

13 civilians. Civilians are people not associated with the war. They are basically innocent. That's not a big deal?

Wesker
It's not good. But it's understandable. This isn't the 1800s where civilians are all safely in their homes and the two armies fight out in a field somewhere.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Wesker
Well, when you use bombs and the enemy hides among the innocent, this DOES happen.


There is a huge aspect of truth to this. You're right in almost every way. But, you're wrong in regards to their deaths being because they enemy hides among the innocent. That would be dependant upon attacking the right enemy. If we were attacking a country that did anything to us on 9/11, those losses would be casualties of war. As it is, we have pissed off people who weren't as highly motivated as they were before we came to their country to "spread freedom". I find it hard to believe that GW Bush holds hands with members of the Saudi royal family, but can't find Bin Laden. Bin Laden is the kid at the back of the classroom that gets away with being an ******* to others because his uncle is the bishop. (if you went to catholic school you'd understand that)

Ya Krunk'd Floo
There's been about 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed since the war started.

Darth Jello
i'm guessing they probably used white phosphorous just like in "shock and awe"

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
There's been about 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed since the war started.

There have been between 33,638 and 37,754 Iraqi civilian casualties since the war started.

Makedde
Bloody Yanks. Stop the war before anymore innocent people are ruthlessly killed.

botankus
Originally posted by botankus
Try the Pirates of the Carribean forum for about a month or two (oh, God that was cruel)...that should be a good warm-up.

I know I'm quoting myself, but a few things this new guy should know about the POTC forum before he enters a place that is scarier than death itself: This forum has the highest smilie/lingo to word ratio at KMC, with each user using approximately 6.5 smilies for every written word, and approximately 9.6 lingo terms (UR, prolly, whogotdarum, and other combos that have dumbed down the Internet) to every string of letters that actually qualifies as an actual word. That is very scary!

KharmaDog
Originally posted by Fishy
Seeing as this happens every day I really don't see how this is even slightly important.

The fact that it happens everyday is EXACTLY why it is important.

Originally posted by Fishy
It happens, shit like this happens in a war, sucks for the people that survived and remain but well its not really newsworthy.

The fact that you find this so commonplace or acceptable is also the reason that makes it so newsworthy, think about it.

Originally posted by botankus
Try the Pirates of the Carribean forum for about a month or two (oh, God that was cruel)...that should be a good warm-up.

Candidate for funniest quote of the month. Botankus, you never disappoint.thumb up

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
lol gotta love canucks, always looking for bad stuff to trash the yanks.

Gotta love ignorant folks who generalize about entire populations on the basis of one newbies post. And most often it is not the Americans that are being trashed, but their administration. And one does not have to look for reasons to trash said administration, they just throw it right out there in everyone's face.

Originally posted by Da preacher
It's a war outta there. So 13 civillians died. Big deal!

People who make such comments are either completely insensitive morons, morally corrupt idiots or completely immature fools...which are you?

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by KharmaDog
And most often it is not the Americans that are being trashed, but their administration.

I have to say I disagree. America is just as generalized by the rest of the world as America is responsible of doing in regards to the rest of the world. If the nightly news followed their reports with a disclaimer about american citizens v. the American administration, that would be one thing. But, people are burning American flags for a reason. Otherwise, they would be burning pictures of administration officials. As it is, they are not. That's just global media and politics.

KharmaDog
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I have to say I disagree. America is just as generalized by the rest of the world as America is responsible of doing in regards to the rest of the world. If the nightly news followed their reports with a disclaimer about american citizens v. the American administration, that would be one thing. But, people are burning American flags for a reason. Otherwise, they would be burning pictures of administration officials. As it is, they are not. That's just global media and politics.

I was directing more my comments towards the idea that Canadians were slagging Americans. Canadians are generally educated enough and aware of what their neighbours are like. Although I don't doubt some Canadians dislike Americans (and vice versa) I would think that the majority of Canadians can differentiate between the actions of an individual, an administration or a population, and voice opinions or concerns in the appropriate direction.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by KharmaDog
I was directing more my comments towards the idea that Canadians were slagging Americans. Canadians are generally educated enough and aware of what their neighbours are like. Although I don't doubt some Canadians dislike Americans (and vice versa) I would think that the majority of Canadians can differentiate between the actions of an individual, an administration or a population, and voice opinions or concerns in the appropriate direction.

hold on! Canadians do "slag" Americans. But is their reasoning any different that that of the Americans that do the same? No. It's all about media influence. Canada is just as guilty (and flawed) as are the Americans that make sweeping generalizations.

I'm not saying that canadians are any less responsible for their misconceptions. In fact, in a way, I'm agreeing with you. There is a huge number of Americans that feel the way they do based on educating themselves. As there are Canadians. Stupidy knows no national boundry. It is universal! That is why propoganda works. When it comes right down to the point, there are citizens in every country that suffer from an innablility to think outside what they are told.

Darkman87
Right! who cares how many have died since the war begins. USA must get back to its soils or wherever. Having a big power should not make the people think to capture anything they wanted to.

There are some associations that might be interested in protection of the world. NATO should take over the control of Iraq and give it to the administrators of land.

USA gives casualties everyday it is not easy for people who lives in USA. A new burial case moves to USA to be given to the owner of corpse. By the way, USA must have this place because if they leave, there is gonna be a civil war and be sure of that place is going to be a full of blood.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Darkman87
Right! who cares how many have died since the war begins.

I care. This isn't about one country v. the next. This is about right and wrong. There's no doubt that Sadam was a bad person. But "right" and "wrong" are subjective///based of the political sphere that exists in the world in question. Apaarently, the USA has done such a wonderful job that we need a Sadam look-a-like to come in and act just like him! How many innocent Americans citizens have to die for G.W. to make a profit?


In all honesty, my position is that we pull out on all support from Israel and the middle east.nd let the chips fall where they may. If Israel can't help itself, then why should we help them? (by the way, the bible is a huge issue in this) Oil is one issue. And once they've all killed themselves, the US can go in and make deal with the ones that are left. Be they arab or jweish, let them die!

KharmaDog
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
hold on! Canadians do "slag" Americans.

I didn't say that didn't happen. Just that the majority of intelligent people know the difference between American policy makers and the Americans themselves. It seems that ignorance is theloudest voice that is heard above all else, and we have our fair share of those also. My main point is that you don't generalize an entire population. Especially one with such a diversity of education and culture such as Canada.


Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
When it comes right down to the point, there are citizens in every country that suffer from an innablility to think outside what they are told.

And that is who my original comment was directed.

Fishy
Originally posted by KharmaDog
The fact that it happens everyday is EXACTLY why it is important.

The fact that you find this so commonplace or acceptable is also the reason that makes it so newsworthy, think about it.


No that would make an article about the 37.000+ citizens that died important not an article about 13 people. Yeah it sucks, so what? If we would have a new thread about every time this shit happens the forum would be flooded with posts like this. And thats what makes this thread not as worthy as others, because it has been done a million times. Its like Deano's conspiracy theory threads, we have a million of those all saying the same thing even if they are different. Its simply not all that important when you look at the bigger picture.

Darth Jello
Has anyone noticed that every time Faux News reports on this new campaign they only show clips from 9/11?

DarkC
Originally posted by Da preacher
It's a war outta there. So 13 civillians died. Big deal!
Safely to say, you're an insensitive jerk.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
hold on! Canadians do "slag" Americans. But is their reasoning any different that that of the Americans that do the same? No. It's all about media influence. Canada is just as guilty (and flawed) as are the Americans that make sweeping generalizations.



Agree with you Capt. Is all about media influence.

GCG
I couldnt care less if they killed 13, 100 or 10,000 Iraqi civilians the same way I care if 10, 100 or 2000 American civilians die in collapsing buildings.

Really, who gives a shit ?

KharmaDog
Originally posted by GCG
I couldnt care less if they killed 13, 100 or 10,000 Iraqi civilians the same way I care if 10, 100 or 2000 American civilians die in collapsing buildings.

And that comment right there shows you to be both a person of little character who posses alarming levels of ignorance and apathy. If more people think like you do, then we're pretty much all f*cked.

GCG
When I sit at home at dinner time I turn on the TV, on the news. I see dead corpses and reports of civil war. I just say "Thats Horrible" and I carry on eating my dinner. Then I go to sleep as if unphased. Cause I am really unphased.

You really do the same things, as I do. You exclaim "Thats Horrible" and you finish your dinner. You sleep like a baby and are unphased by the horrible events.

If I alarm you with that you really make me laugh.

KharmaDog
Originally posted by GCG
When I sit at home at dinner time I turn on the TV, on the news. I see dead corpses and reports of civil war. I just say "Thats Horrible" and I carry on eating my dinner. Then I go to sleep as if unphased. Cause I am really unphased.

How does this justify apathy or ignorance?


Originally posted by GCG
You really do the same things, as I do. You exclaim "Thats Horrible" and you finish your dinner. You sleep like a baby and are unphased by the horrible events.

No, not really. I am quite 'phased' by these events. I often travel to parts of the world where people are directly affected by these events. And in fact I have been directly affected by these events. So please keep your presumptions of how I feel separate from the self justification of your own apathy and insensitive please.

Originally posted by GCG
If I alarm you with that you really make me laugh.

Glad to entertain. If you fail to see the problem, then it is best that you sit in the corner laughing and amusing yourself with the other village idiots, it seems that you'd be happiest under such circumstances.

GCG
Originally posted by KharmaDog
How does this justify apathy or ignorance?


No, not really. I am quite 'phased' by these events. I often travel to parts of the world where people are directly affected by these events. And in fact I have been directly affected by these events. So please keep your presumptions of how I feel separate from the self justification of your own apathy and insensitive please.



Glad to entertain.....yadda .

So you are saying that you actually put yourself into first gear, and run to the rescue. Okay. Where have you been and what have you done to show your support ?

What power did you have and what have you achieved ?

KharmaDog
Originally posted by GCG
So you are saying that you actually put yourself into first gear, and run to the rescue.

Did I actually say that? NO, in fact I said:


To respond to your smart-ass question I did not say that I run to anyone's rescue, but that I am both phased and affected, as are many those I know and work with, by these events. My job requires travel, and during those travels I get to see more than just outside my own little world and can't afford the apathetic view towards others that you seem to be comfortable with.

Originally posted by GCG
Okay. Where have you been and what have you done to show your support ?

What power did you have and what have you achieved ?

By actually giving a f*ck and voicing concern and respect for others I feel that you actually accomplish something. You can mock and question the motives of others, but it really only is done to make yourself feel comfortable in your apathy.

GCG
Originally posted by KharmaDog
Did I actually say that? NO, in fact I said:


To respond to your smart-ass question I did not say that I run to anyone's rescue, but that I am both phased and affected, as are many those I know and work with, by these events. My job requires travel, and during those travels I get to see more than just outside my own little world and can't afford the apathetic view towards others that you seem to be comfortable with.



By actually giving a f*ck and voicing concern and respect for others I feel that you actually accomplish something. You can mock and question the motives of others, but it really only is done to make yourself feel comfortable in your apathy.

HOW can you possibly 'feel that you have accomplished something' when thousands keep dying ? HOW ? Really thats how laughable your claims are.

When I suggested what you do, in my 'arrogant presumption', (that you remain unfazed by the events we see at dinner), you did quickly retort that you " often travel to parts of the world where people are directly affected by these events."

So ? What do YOU want to say about your frequent travels in parts of the world ? HOW are these people in these parts of the world 'affected directly' by these events ?

You continue with And in fact I have been directly affected by these events . Really ? How are you affected directly ? What are these facts you claim to have succumbed to ?

KharmaDog
Originally posted by GCG
HOW can you possibly 'feel that you have accomplished something' when thousands keep dying ? HOW ? Really thats how laughable your claims are.

So in order for you to feel like you have put forth any positive influence in the world, or to feel that you have accomplished anything, the end result MUST be that you save the lives of thousands? Do you live in a marvel comic book? Do you have any idea how immature sounding that comment is. If someone helps out a single person, they have accomplished something. If you weigh your value by only grandiose feats, I would love to here about the great exploits of GCG.

Originally posted by GCG
When I suggested what you do, in my 'arrogant presumption', (that you remain unfazed by the events we see at dinner), you did quickly retort that you " often travel to parts of the world where people are directly affected by these events."

Yes I did say that. I however did not say that I travel the world to save or help these people, I stated that I travel to parts of the world where people are directly affected by these events. I am a writer by profession and I get to travel quite a bit meeting many people. Your comprehension level seems remarkably low, or you are just trying to dig deep and come up with something to try and sound like you know something the rest of us don't.


Originally posted by GCG
So ? What do YOU want to say about your frequent travels in parts of the world ? HOW are these people in these parts of the world 'affected directly' by these events ?

Do you really care? I doubt you do, but here are a few examples.

On a recent trip to Milan I sat and talked with man who lost his brother in the Madrid train bombings of March 11, 2004.

I have a close friend serving overseas in Iraq or Afghanistan, I am not sure which as the details of his unit are never made public. He serves with Canada's JTF2 and I haven't seen or heard from him in 3 years.

Recently I was in Denver Colorado where I met up with an old ranch hand who's son lost the use of his right arm and suffered serious damage to the right side of his face while serving in Iraq.

Last month I was in Frankfurt Germany while accompanying a peer as he interviewed people who have left Iraq, yet whose families have remained there. He's writing a book about people sitting on the outside looking in at what is happening to their country and families. He has also held interviews in other countries with people experiencing the same situation.

When I here stories of how people on both sides are dealing with this and other conflicts I can't look down on others who really don't seem to give a sh*t about the suffering of others.

Originally posted by GCG
You continue with And in fact I have been directly affected by these events . Really ? How are you affected directly ? What are these facts you claim to have succumbed to ?

Would it satisfy you to write the names of friends and coworkers who have died in Afghanistan, Iraq and New York? Or perhaps the loved ones left behind who are still dealing with the loss?

Like I said, my current career allows me to travel as did my previous career. I consider it a great perk to get to travel so much, but when you travel you get to meet people, share experiences and look outside your own perspective to see how others are benefiting or suffering from the events that happen around both us and them.

GCG

KharmaDog

TheOne101
So yea, i dont know abot you but to me GCG just pwned Kharmadog in the mouth. Literally i guess you could say....uch fun reading GCG melt Kharma's face. If i were Kharma i wouldnt have even responded after a rip like that, Ha. right on GCG more power to ya bro.

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