Spiderman vs Batman

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TheKahn
This isn't a standard fight:

Assume that you live in a major city anywhere around the world with a sizable crime rate and the occasional supervillian. Who would you rather have paroling the streets, Spiderman or Bats? And why? Who woudl be the best and quickest at reducing the crime rate and keeping the streets safe?

samishe
...spins a web any size
catches thieves just like flies...

Black Adam
I'd rather have the Friendly neighborhood Spider-man protecting me. As for Who would be the quickest and best? Doesn't spidey operate at day and night?
he could probably cover a lot more of the city faster as well thanks to the web slinging

soleran30
I would take Spiderman for the street thug types and cleaning the streets faster.................

I would prefer Batman for large crime syndicates that operate on a global scale but doing it in my backyardsmile

brainchild81
Spidey. He's a hero by day & by night

braz
Batman. hes more intimidating and will make a much bigger impression, despite the fact that he doesnt have 'superpowers'

spetznaz
I'd chose Batman anyday.

Although he is 'only' a human (although a look at the Batman respect thread would make one quickly wonder exactly what type of 'human' he is....but I digress), the criminals do not know this. Based on how he is written, most Gothamites see him as a cross between an urban legend and the bogeyman, and even some members of the JLA consider him 'spooky.'
He has also managed to keep Gotham's nose mostly clean, a feat that Superman tried to do during the no Man's Land saga and miserably failed.
Batman is exemplary when it comes to keeping order in a city, and he does this primarily due to his intellect as well as fostering a general state of unease and unabated fear amongst the criminal populace.
In essence they try to avoid Gotham at all costs ......and Batman did this aspect of his job so well that criminals flooded to Buldhaven in order to get away from the Bat, thus making Bludhaven into a cesspool of crime (which is ONE of the reasons Nightwing went there, and also why Robin and Batgirl began full-scale operations there).

In a nutshell when it comes to taking care of a city no one can do it better than Batman.
Not Superman.
Not WonderWoman.

And certainly not Spiderman!

Spiderman s very good .....actually he is great .....the only thing is that he doesn't carry the same potence that Batman does.
Now, Spiderman is stronger, is faster, and has his spidersense.
But when I talk about potence I mean the impact he brings .....he doesn't inspire the same fear.
What they see in Spiderman is a super hero dressed up in spider garb.
What they see in Batman is malevolent evil waiting to snatch them up in some dark alley and drag them to the depths of hell.

Fear is a great motivator. One of the greatest if not the greatest (although some do claim that love can trump fear ....eg a mother's love for her child causing her to charge into a lion's den to save her child even when she is phobic of everything bigger than a mouse, but again I digress).

Spiderman is the 'friendly neighborhood' dude who keeps things straight and criminals away, and can be counted on for a quip or two. He is super strong, super this, super that .....all of it. A great guy.

Batman on the other hand, for all who do not know he is Bruce Wayne and a 'normal' human, is a shadow from hell. He inspires great fear in the criminal underground (again, he does his job so well most criminals avoid Gotham all together and opt for the 'Haven), he is seen as something akin to malevolence personified, and is believed to be some sort of bogeyman.

Furthermore he has handled some insane events that threatened Gotham .....for example the aforementioned No Man's Land, where he kept Gotham together after the earthquake (and after the entire United States abandoned it).
I wonder what Spiderman could have done?
Answer: nothing! Why? Because the thing that helped Batman out wasn't his strength or his ability, but the fact that he inspired fear amongst the criminal element, and inspired hope amongst the good civilians who had been stuck in Gotham.


What could Spiderman do, since the New york media portrays him as some no-gooder criminal-vigilante?
Sure, Spiderman could have caught criminals and stuff, but that wouldn't have worked. Superman is far better at such stuff than Spidey, and Superman failed.

Anyways, when it comes to protecting a city no one does it better than Batman. The whole mystery surrounding him, and the whole fear-for-criminals/hope-for-the-city dichotomy that hangs around him, helps him a lot. The mere knowledge that Gotham is 'Batman's city' keeps away most of the riff-raff, and those that remain are taken care of with ease.
With the end result being that Gotham, even though it is protected by 'humans,' is in many ways a better place to be than Metropolis (which has Superman). In one comic I have a group of criminals was moving from Gotham to go to Metropolis, preferring to face Superman rather than stay in a place that had the Bat!
Why?
Fear! To such an extent that they would rather face someone who can juggle tanks than stay in Gotham.
That is something that Spiderman doesn't inspire (at the very least nowhere close to the level of Batman).

Anyways, if I lived in a city that had the option between having The Bat or having Spiderman, my vote would always be 100% for Batman.
When it comes to city defense no one does it better.

p.s: well, the Flash in the Kingdom Come series did do it better .....since he was everywhere at the same time.

Crease
I was going to vote spidey, even though Spetznaz just made me feel ashamed to admit it...I'm going to go find a corner and a dunce cap now...

brainchild81
Gotham is a cesspool. It's been one since Bats started and it's still one now. He's not scaring the criminals enough

spetznaz
Originally posted by brainchild81
Gotham is a cesspool. It's been one since Bats started and it's still one now. He's not scaring the criminals enough

I still stand by what I said, plus Gotham without Batman would have imploded a long time ago.
Actually it could be said that Gotham wouldn't exist without the Batman (one good example being the Cataclysm/No Man's Land saga when even the United States government had to abandon the entire city, and heroes like Superman could do naught; as well as other examples being when an Epidemic ravaged the city and would have destroyed it. There have also been 'minor' incidents like when Batman took care of an invasion of Aliens).

Also Batman has been so good at scaring criminals that most have fled to Bludhaven, and some are even willing to face off against Kal El in Metropolis.

Anyways, whatever your opinion might be I still say that Batman would be far more effective at dealing with city-sized scenarios than Spiderman would.

By the way ....I'm curious as to how you think Spiderman could handle Gotham?
And how effective he would be (particularly when Superman has tried twice and failed)?

GODSCRIBE
Originally posted by brainchild81
Gotham is a cesspool. It's been one since Bats started and it's still one now. He's not scaring the criminals enough

Haha

braz
Originally posted by spetznaz
I'd chose Batman anyday.

Although he is 'only' a human (although a look at the Batman respect thread would make one quickly wonder exactly what type of 'human' he is....but I digress), the criminals do not know this. Based on how he is written, most Gothamites see him as a cross between an urban legend and the bogeyman, and even some members of the JLA consider him 'spooky.'
He has also managed to keep Gotham's nose mostly clean, a feat that Superman tried to do during the no Man's Land saga and miserably failed.
Batman is exemplary when it comes to keeping order in a city, and he does this primarily due to his intellect as well as fostering a general state of unease and unabated fear amongst the criminal populace.
In essence they try to avoid Gotham at all costs ......and Batman did this aspect of his job so well that criminals flooded to Buldhaven in order to get away from the Bat, thus making Bludhaven into a cesspool of crime (which is ONE of the reasons Nightwing went there, and also why Robin and Batgirl began full-scale operations there).

In a nutshell when it comes to taking care of a city no one can do it better than Batman.
Not Superman.
Not WonderWoman.

And certainly not Spiderman!

Spiderman s very good .....actually he is great .....the only thing is that he doesn't carry the same potence that Batman does.
Now, Spiderman is stronger, is faster, and has his spidersense.
But when I talk about potence I mean the impact he brings .....he doesn't inspire the same fear.
What they see in Spiderman is a super hero dressed up in spider garb.
What they see in Batman is malevolent evil waiting to snatch them up in some dark alley and drag them to the depths of hell.

Fear is a great motivator. One of the greatest if not the greatest (although some do claim that love can trump fear ....eg a mother's love for her child causing her to charge into a lion's den to save her child even when she is phobic of everything bigger than a mouse, but again I digress).

Spiderman is the 'friendly neighborhood' dude who keeps things straight and criminals away, and can be counted on for a quip or two. He is super strong, super this, super that .....all of it. A great guy.

Batman on the other hand, for all who do not know he is Bruce Wayne and a 'normal' human, is a shadow from hell. He inspires great fear in the criminal underground (again, he does his job so well most criminals avoid Gotham all together and opt for the 'Haven), he is seen as something akin to malevolence personified, and is believed to be some sort of bogeyman.

Furthermore he has handled some insane events that threatened Gotham .....for example the aforementioned No Man's Land, where he kept Gotham together after the earthquake (and after the entire United States abandoned it).
I wonder what Spiderman could have done?
Answer: nothing! Why? Because the thing that helped Batman out wasn't his strength or his ability, but the fact that he inspired fear amongst the criminal element, and inspired hope amongst the good civilians who had been stuck in Gotham.


What could Spiderman do, since the New york media portrays him as some no-gooder criminal-vigilante?
Sure, Spiderman could have caught criminals and stuff, but that wouldn't have worked. Superman is far better at such stuff than Spidey, and Superman failed.

Anyways, when it comes to protecting a city no one does it better than Batman. The whole mystery surrounding him, and the whole fear-for-criminals/hope-for-the-city dichotomy that hangs around him, helps him a lot. The mere knowledge that Gotham is 'Batman's city' keeps away most of the riff-raff, and those that remain are taken care of with ease.
With the end result being that Gotham, even though it is protected by 'humans,' is in many ways a better place to be than Metropolis (which has Superman). In one comic I have a group of criminals was moving from Gotham to go to Metropolis, preferring to face Superman rather than stay in a place that had the Bat!
Why?
Fear! To such an extent that they would rather face someone who can juggle tanks than stay in Gotham.
That is something that Spiderman doesn't inspire (at the very least nowhere close to the level of Batman).

Anyways, if I lived in a city that had the option between having The Bat or having Spiderman, my vote would always be 100% for Batman.
When it comes to city defense no one does it better.

p.s: well, the Flash in the Kingdom Come series did do it better .....since he was everywhere at the same time.

^^EXACTLY...thankyou, long story short, FEAR plays a big role in the criminal underworld...and batman invokes fear into the hearts of criminals like no other. ever. has. done. ...EVER.
and plus think about it, if spiderman was trying to protect gotham like batman, it just wouldnt look right...everything in gothams all gothic and dark n gloomy and scary and all of a sudden u see a guy with blue and red tights onlaughing

spetznaz
Originally posted by braz
^^EXACTLY...thankyou, long story short, FEAR plays a big role in the criminal underworld...and batman invokes fear into the hearts of criminals like no other. ever. has. done. ...EVER.
and plus think about it, if spiderman was trying to protect gotham like batman does, and criminals saw him, they wouldnt go run and hide like when they'd see batman theyd laugh their ass off laughing and be like hey look, look at that big idiot in blue and red tights, shoot em for looking retarded eek!

Yup.
In a nutshell that is what would happen if Spiderman tried to sort out Gotham.
He'd literally be laughed out of town (and unlike Superman he'd have to walk or web-sling away instead of flying away).

braz
heh, i edited big grin

samishe
Originally posted by spetznaz
I still stand by what I said, plus Gotham without Batman would have imploded a long time ago.
Actually it could be said that Gotham wouldn't exist without the Batman (one good example being the Cataclysm/No Man's Land saga when even the United States government had to abandon the entire city, and heroes like Superman could do naught; as well as other examples being when an Epidemic ravaged the city and would have destroyed it. There have also been 'minor' incidents like when Batman took care of an invasion of Aliens).

Also Batman has been so good at scaring criminals that most have fled to Bludhaven, and some are even willing to face off against Kal El in Metropolis.

Anyways, whatever your opinion might be I still say that Batman would be far more effective at dealing with city-sized scenarios than Spiderman would.

By the way ....I'm curious as to how you think Spiderman could handle Gotham?
And how effective he would be (particularly when Superman has tried twice and failed)?

How could Spidey hande Gotham? Easilly. Superman isn't really good for cathing criminals. He's better for things like protecting universes etc. So don't compare him with Spider-man. Batman is cool but he can't operate as fast as Spider-man. This is cathing criminals tournament. Spider-man has one big advantage. His ss. It not only warns him of danger but also tells him if there is crime happening somwhere near.

Juntai
Originally posted by samishe
How could Spidey hande Gotham? Easilly. Superman isn't really good for cathing criminals. He's better for things like protecting universes etc. So don't compare him with Spider-man. Batman is cool but he can't operate as fast as Spider-man. This is cathing criminals tournament. Spider-man has one big advantage. His ss. It not only warns him of danger but also tells him if there is crime happening somwhere near. Spidey couldn't handle Gotham. Batman plays his villains like a fiddle, rather than directly. If Spidey came in and tried some bruiser shit, Clayface or Ivy or someone would have his ass.
Batman's built himself into their psyche. Batman's advantage is he knows all the quirks they have mentally. He knows how they think, how they act, what they'll say, what move is next. He's the Dark KNIGHT, because he moves in an oddest most indetectible way on the chessboard.

golem370
Spider-Mans biggest down fall is his self Confidence. I would love to see Batman and Spider-Man switch cities for a Month I think Batman would be dead with in 5 days just think he would have to contend with Scorpion,Lizard,Rhino,Green Goblin,Doppleganger,Venom,Carnage,BT,Hobgoblin,Kra
ven and the Occasional Juggernaut Hulk or Firelord laughing etc etc

I think Spider-Man would be way more effective with Batmans Villains then Batman with Spider-Mans Villains

samishe
Originally posted by Juntai
Spidey couldn't handle Gotham. Batman plays his villains like a fiddle, rather than directly. If Spidey came in and tried some bruiser shit, Clayface or Ivy or someone would have his ass.
Batman's built himself into their psyche. Batman's advantage is he knows all the quirks they have mentally. He knows how they think, how they act, what they'll say, what move is next. He's the Dark KNIGHT, because he moves in an oddest most indetectible way on the chessboard.


Batman's advantage is that he knows all the quirks they have mentally?
Come on, ofcourse he knows his villians, they are from his universe. But it doesn't mean anything. If he faced Spidey villians he would get in a same situation as Spidey in DC universe.
All Spider villians someday were new to him. So what? He defeated them. Learned their weaknesses. Same would happen to Bats Villians.

Juntai
Originally posted by golem370
Spider-Mans biggest down fall is his self Confidence. I would love to see Batman and Spider-Man switch cities for a Month I think Batman would be dead with in 5 days just think he would have to contend with Scorpion,Lizard,Rhino,Green Goblin,Doppleganger,Venom,Carnage,BT,Hobgoblin,Kra
ven and the Occasional Juggernaut Hulk or Firelord laughing etc etc

I think Spider-Man would be way more effective with Batmans Villains then Batman with Spider-Mans Villains

Have you ever read a Batman comic? He doesn't usually fight directly. All he'd do is hit a button and win. He wins with smarts. They'd all be too busy fighting eachother to notice the trap. On the forum, that sounds bad, but on the forum when we put them together, they just battle. Batman DOES NOT fight like that.

Spidey would have to deal with Ivy, Lex Luthor, Clayface, Azreal, Joker, and the occasional Superman. Haha. Since he'd try to brute it out, he'd probably die fast.

TheKahn
Originally posted by spetznaz
I'd chose Batman anyday.

Although he is 'only' a human (although a look at the Batman respect thread would make one quickly wonder exactly what type of 'human' he is....but I digress), the criminals do not know this. Based on how he is written, most Gothamites see him as a cross between an urban legend and the bogeyman, and even some members of the JLA consider him 'spooky.'
He has also managed to keep Gotham's nose mostly clean, a feat that Superman tried to do during the no Man's Land saga and miserably failed.
Batman is exemplary when it comes to keeping order in a city, and he does this primarily due to his intellect as well as fostering a general state of unease and unabated fear amongst the criminal populace.
In essence they try to avoid Gotham at all costs ......and Batman did this aspect of his job so well that criminals flooded to Buldhaven in order to get away from the Bat, thus making Bludhaven into a cesspool of crime (which is ONE of the reasons Nightwing went there, and also why Robin and Batgirl began full-scale operations there).

In a nutshell when it comes to taking care of a city no one can do it better than Batman.
Not Superman.
Not WonderWoman.

And certainly not Spiderman!

Spiderman s very good .....actually he is great .....the only thing is that he doesn't carry the same potence that Batman does.
Now, Spiderman is stronger, is faster, and has his spidersense.
But when I talk about potence I mean the impact he brings .....he doesn't inspire the same fear.
What they see in Spiderman is a super hero dressed up in spider garb.
What they see in Batman is malevolent evil waiting to snatch them up in some dark alley and drag them to the depths of hell.

Fear is a great motivator. One of the greatest if not the greatest (although some do claim that love can trump fear ....eg a mother's love for her child causing her to charge into a lion's den to save her child even when she is phobic of everything bigger than a mouse, but again I digress).

Spiderman is the 'friendly neighborhood' dude who keeps things straight and criminals away, and can be counted on for a quip or two. He is super strong, super this, super that .....all of it. A great guy.

Batman on the other hand, for all who do not know he is Bruce Wayne and a 'normal' human, is a shadow from hell. He inspires great fear in the criminal underground (again, he does his job so well most criminals avoid Gotham all together and opt for the 'Haven), he is seen as something akin to malevolence personified, and is believed to be some sort of bogeyman.

Furthermore he has handled some insane events that threatened Gotham .....for example the aforementioned No Man's Land, where he kept Gotham together after the earthquake (and after the entire United States abandoned it).
I wonder what Spiderman could have done?
Answer: nothing! Why? Because the thing that helped Batman out wasn't his strength or his ability, but the fact that he inspired fear amongst the criminal element, and inspired hope amongst the good civilians who had been stuck in Gotham.


What could Spiderman do, since the New york media portrays him as some no-gooder criminal-vigilante?
Sure, Spiderman could have caught criminals and stuff, but that wouldn't have worked. Superman is far better at such stuff than Spidey, and Superman failed.

Anyways, when it comes to protecting a city no one does it better than Batman. The whole mystery surrounding him, and the whole fear-for-criminals/hope-for-the-city dichotomy that hangs around him, helps him a lot. The mere knowledge that Gotham is 'Batman's city' keeps away most of the riff-raff, and those that remain are taken care of with ease.
With the end result being that Gotham, even though it is protected by 'humans,' is in many ways a better place to be than Metropolis (which has Superman). In one comic I have a group of criminals was moving from Gotham to go to Metropolis, preferring to face Superman rather than stay in a place that had the Bat!
Why?
Fear! To such an extent that they would rather face someone who can juggle tanks than stay in Gotham.
That is something that Spiderman doesn't inspire (at the very least nowhere close to the level of Batman).

Anyways, if I lived in a city that had the option between having The Bat or having Spiderman, my vote would always be 100% for Batman.
When it comes to city defense no one does it better.

p.s: well, the Flash in the Kingdom Come series did do it better .....since he was everywhere at the same time.

All very valid points and extremely well put, as always spetznaz.
But in Spidey's defense, I think there is something we should keep in mind. Spiderman doesn't have his own city. Batman (and Superman) have essentially their own private domain where they are the primary characters. Whatever happens in Gotham really only effects Batman. Thus Gotham is in many ways built around Batman is a way that New York City isn't build around Spiderman. As Spiderman has to share NY (and the criminals therein) with a multitude of other superheroes.

Another advantage is that Gotham is a fictional city, so conditions there can be tailor made to showcase Batman and his abilities. The fictional nature of Gotham makes it believable for Batman to have run all of the criminals out of the city and reduced the crime rate to nearly nothing. As Spiderman's New York has a real life counterpart, the same really can't be done. A crime free New York City just isn't as believable as a crime free Gotham, imo.

Juntai
Originally posted by samishe
Batman's advantage is that he knows all the quirks they have mentally?
Come on, ofcourse he knows his villians, they are from his universe. But it doesn't mean anything. If he faced Spidey villians he would get in a same situation as Spidey in DC universe.
All Spider villians someday were new to him. So what? He defeated them. Learned their weaknesses. Same would happen to Bats Villians. You've never read a Batman comic either I see.

samishe
Originally posted by Juntai
You've never read a Batman comic either I see.

Actually I read.
Spider-man would be better at Batman's villians than Batman at Spiderman's

samishe
:/

Juntai
Originally posted by samishe
Actually I read. Oh yea? Then you'd know Batman's comics are psychologic comics, rather than 'hero' comics. And that he doesn't defeat them in the traditional sense, and everyone who has tried it that way, got defeated by his enemies. Batman understands their psyche completely. He knows what they want, why they want it, etc. His villains don't have "weakness" like Spidey villains, like "use fire on this guy, use sonics on that guy, punch that guy. He can't see through this eye." Batman KNOWS his villains. He understands the shattered psyche probably because he has one himself, and is a master of psychology. He plays them like he's the marionette and they're puppets. He can wiggle a string and knows how they'll react to it. In No Man's Land for example, he did that to the entire city. Even Superman wasn't able to last in Gotham. He gave up.

samishe
erm

samishe
Originally posted by Juntai
Oh yea? Then you'd know Batman's comics are psychologic comics, rather than 'hero' comics. And that he doesn't defeat them in the traditional sense, and everyone who has tried it that way, got defeated by his enemies. Batman understands their psyche completely. He knows what they want, why they want it, etc. His villains don't have "weakness" like Spidey villains, like "use fire on this guy, use sonics on that guy, punch that guy. He can't see through this eye." Batman KNOWS his villains. He understands the shattered psyche probably because he has one himself, and is a master of psychology. He plays them like he's the marionette and they're puppets. He can wiggle a string and knows how they'll react to it. In No Man's Land for example, he did that to the entire city. Even Superman wasn't able to last in Gotham. He gave up.

Now i'm sure you haven't ever read Spidey comix.

Where the hell you got from that all Spidey's villians have weaknesses.
He ussualy outthinks his enemies eathier.

Tell me how Bats psychology will help him to beat Scorpion or Ock?
Both Spider-man and Batman use their Brains to defeat villians, thats why Spider could survive in Gotham. But sometimes there are cases when the only chance to win is to use brute strength. Thats batman's biggest disadvantage. He can find himself in situation in which he doesn't have prep time, in which he'll have no chance but to fight and his gadgets are not always gonna save him. So he'll be simply killed.

braz
lol if batman ever had to take on spidermans villains, he would just use his bat-tank like in The Dark Knight Returns or The Tumbler in Begins n blow em outta the sky, just like he did w/ superman

samishe
Originally posted by braz
lol if batman ever had to take on spidermans villains, he would just use his bat-tank like in The Dark Knight Returns or The Tumbler in Begins n blow em outta the sky, just like he did w/ superman

Spidey has villians agains whom Bat's tank won't do him any good.

braz
name 1, green goblin on his lil glider...1 heat seeking missle gone
doc ock?, gone hes only human and cant move quick enough
venom?, hmmm he might be trouble but i bet if batman destroyed enough buildings, he wouldnt have newhere to go n he'd get him too eventually
carnage?, same way

batman has taken down superman with his tank (even though he was weakened) but still...

samishe
Originally posted by braz
name 1, green goblin on his lil glider...1 heat seeking missle gone
doc ock?, gone hes only human and cant move quick enough
venom?, hmmm he might be trouble but i bet if batman destroyed enough buildings, he wouldnt have newhere to go n he'd get him too eventually
carnage?, same way

batman has taken down superman with his tank (even though he was weakened) but still...

hydroman. What could batman do with him? Hit him with tank?

And i believe Hulk and Juggernaut are also considered to be Spider villians.

bench261
Originally posted by TheKahn
All very valid points and extremely well put, as always spetznaz.
But in Spidey's defense, I think there is something we should keep in mind. Spiderman doesn't have his own city. Batman (and Superman) have essentially their own private domain where they are the primary characters. Whatever happens in Gotham really only effects Batman. Thus Gotham is in many ways built around Batman is a way that New York City isn't build around Spiderman. As Spiderman has to share NY (and the criminals therein) with a multitude of other superheroes.

Another advantage is that Gotham is a fictional city, so conditions there can be tailor made to showcase Batman and his abilities. The fictional nature of Gotham makes it believable for Batman to have run all of the criminals out of the city and reduced the crime rate to nearly nothing. As Spiderman's New York has a real life counterpart, the same really can't be done. A crime free New York City just isn't as believable as a crime free Gotham, imo.

well said

bench261
Originally posted by braz
lol if batman ever had to take on spidermans villains, he would just use his bat-tank like in The Dark Knight Returns or The Tumbler in Begins n blow em outta the sky, just like he did w/ superman

the bat tank would be stuck in traffic in nyc and probably get a parking violation too

braz
^lol like thats gunna stop batman

Marcus4600
Toppling buildings on Venom? Yeah, because that works so well. Superman rammed him through buildings, and Venom just bit him. Also, Batman's rogues gallery is honestly nothing compared to what Spidey has to deal with. A Bat Tank in New York is gonna get Batman fried into bat crispies. Also, if Batman saw Namor, he may call him Leanord Nimoy and get his head punched off.

Spider-Man's rogues gallery are something that Batman has never experienced before. Carnage? To be honest, Carnage may be just as f*cked up as the Joker, but he's about 200 times more deadly. Also, nobody in New York would be scared of him. New York in Marvel has seen much worse than Clayface or Killer Croc. Onslaught, Galactus, and so forth have terrorized it, so I don't think Batman would be taken seriously. That, and Marvel isn't much for the caped variety. Batman may be good for Gotham, but Spider-Man is one of those that can mop up quickly.

AJ4LIFE
well to stop one or 2 villains id say spiey, but an entire city, id say bats he can scare the city

brainchild81
Originally posted by Marcus4600
Toppling buildings on Venom? Yeah, because that works so well. Superman rammed him through buildings, and Venom just bit him. Also, Batman's rogues gallery is honestly nothing compared to what Spidey has to deal with. A Bat Tank in New York is gonna get Batman fried into bat crispies. Also, if Batman saw Namor, he may call him Leanord Nimoy and get his head punched off.

Spider-Man's rogues gallery are something that Batman has never experienced before. Carnage? To be honest, Carnage may be just as f*cked up as the Joker, but he's about 200 times more deadly. Also, nobody in New York would be scared of him. New York in Marvel has seen much worse than Clayface or Killer Croc. Onslaught, Galactus, and so forth have terrorized it, so I don't think Batman would be taken seriously. That, and Marvel isn't much for the caped variety. Batman may be good for Gotham, but Spider-Man is one of those that can mop up quickly. Good post. Seriously people. Batman goes out on one nightly patrol, runs into somebody like Carnage and now Batman's face is all over town, as well as his spleen, and arms, and liver and guts. Marvel villains wouldn't believe his hype. Batman's great, but he can't handle Spidey's rouges without huge plot devices.

braz
^ha!

samishe
Originally posted by braz
^ha!

roll eyes (sarcastic)

brainchild81
Originally posted by braz
^ha! Says the guy who saidOriginally posted by braz
venom?, hmmm he might be trouble but i bet if batman destroyed enough buildings, he wouldnt have newhere to go n he'd get him too eventually
carnage?, same way That sounds like Batman to you? Kill citizens and destroy buildings to stop Venom? Quite an imagination ya got there kidlaughing Ha? Right back @ ya laughing

bench261
depends what kinda badguys r in the city...

most of batmans enemies in gotham are non powered humans like him...except his has teh advantage of money, gadgets, and information along with element of surprise and planning. on top of that he's in better shape than most of his opponents. with the exception of low level brutes like clay face or bane..which spiderman can easily out smart or over power.

spider-man's enemies are usually stronger than he is, or at the very least as strong. so the strength is negated and he has to outsmart them as well. if a killer like carnage was on the loose, i'd rather have spider-man be in the city...joker, 2face, penguin, riddler, n madhatter really wouldnt scare me. realistically the police or army can kill them by brute force or by numbers..but they're usually inept in comics.

i think spiderman would fit in both cities since it's like a step down, batman would have more of a challenge fighting spidy's enemies. i'm sure he can do it. but the vast majority is stronger or deadlier than clayface or bane.

so it's pretty much on thugs vs super powered villains. in real life i'd worry more about a real carnage or venom than a real mad hatter/joker or mob boss.

brainchild81
Ditto. Give me an uzi & 100 clips and I'd clean up 95% of Gotham's criminals

samishe
Originally posted by bench261
depends what kinda badguys r in the city...

most of batmans enemies in gotham are non powered humans like him...except his has teh advantage of money, gadgets, and information along with element of surprise and planning. on top of that he's in better shape than most of his opponents. with the exception of low level brutes like clay face or bane..which spiderman can easily out smart or over power.

spider-man's enemies are usually stronger than he is, or at the very least as strong. so the strength is negated and he has to outsmart them as well. if a killer like carnage was on the loose, i'd rather have spider-man be in the city...joker, 2face, penguin, riddler, n madhatter really wouldnt scare me. realistically the police or army can kill them by brute force or by numbers..but they're usually inept in comics.

i think spiderman would fit in both cities since it's like a step down, batman would have more of a challenge fighting spidy's enemies. i'm sure he can do it. but the vast majority is stronger or deadlier than clayface or bane.

so it's pretty much on thugs vs super powered villains. in real life i'd worry more about a real carnage or venom than a real mad hatter/joker or mob boss.

So true.

FrothByte
lots of batman fans i see....

spidey would handle gotham a lot better than batman would handle new york.

the main reason batman has such control over gotham is because he spent his entire life and dark business there.

did batman ever have to defend gotham against beings like firelord?

besides, considering this is a race... spidey just really moves faster than batman... and that's not in a litteral sense.

lifeisaglich
Batman is knows his city well enough to even guess what he going to face each night. He doesn't get allot of powerhouses but as it has been proven before batman always as an escape plan or some device inside his suit.

If batman were to switch cities to New York, then his thinking is going to change instead of just wearing he regular suites he is going to start shelling out his specialized suites. And with the stuff that batman is going to bring out (stuff that he is suppose to have) it is going to be spidy's villians who would need plot devices to get to him.

And with that said batman is going to have an easy time cleaning out spiderman's city.

bench261
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Batman is knows his city well enough to even guess what he going to face each night. He doesn't get allot of powerhouses but as it has been proven before batman always as an escape plan or some device inside his suit.

If batman were to switch cities to New York, then his thinking is going to change instead of just wearing he regular suites he is going to start shelling out his specialized suites. And with the stuff that batman is going to bring out (stuff that he is suppose to have) it is going to be spidy's villians who would need plot devices to get to him.

And with that said batman is going to have an easy time cleaning out spiderman's city.

batman is outgunned, realistically if he doesnt get killed in their first encounter with spidy's enemies. 2nd or 3rd encounter after he sulks and broods in his batcave comin up with sum device..then he could win

venom or carnage have better ninja skills as in stealth, climbing and movin from buildin to buildin. superior strength and durability. if venom webbed batman in the face, batman would suffocate and die....he has no strength to rip it off. h2h would get batman's bones crushed against them and brain possibly eaten. if he survives the 1st meeting i guess he can come back with his flame thrower or sonic gun

but definatley an easier time for spidy than batman

TheKahn
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Batman is knows his city well enough to even guess what he going to face each night. He doesn't get allot of powerhouses but as it has been proven before batman always as an escape plan or some device inside his suit.

If batman were to switch cities to New York, then his thinking is going to change instead of just wearing he regular suites he is going to start shelling out his specialized suites. And with the stuff that batman is going to bring out (stuff that he is suppose to have) it is going to be spidy's villians who would need plot devices to get to him.

And with that said batman is going to have an easy time cleaning out spiderman's city.

Good poing. So he might take a more "Iron Man" like approach with a legion of specalized suits. Interesting...

braz
Originally posted by brainchild81
Says the guy who said That sounds like Batman to you? Kill citizens and destroy buildings to stop Venom? Quite an imagination ya got there kidlaughing Ha? Right back @ ya laughing


i was saying "ha!" to AJ's post but u posted b4 me mad roll eyes (sarcastic)


and yes i know batman is not like that and wouldnt kill a whole bunch of people just to get one person, but what the hell, lets bend the rules a little bit and say he did, & then see what happens....

lifeisaglich
Exactly, but not doing the whole Iron man motif.



Yes batman would be able to pull off the web from his face thanks to the mother box.

batdude123
Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Batman is knows his city well enough to even guess what he going to face each night. He doesn't get allot of powerhouses but as it has been proven before batman always as an escape plan or some device inside his suit.

If batman were to switch cities to New York, then his thinking is going to change instead of just wearing he regular suites he is going to start shelling out his specialized suites. And with the stuff that batman is going to bring out (stuff that he is suppose to have) it is going to be spidy's villians who would need plot devices to get to him.

And with that said batman is going to have an easy time cleaning out spiderman's city.

When are DC writers going to make Batman having different more specialized suites? I think that it's a good idea for him to get some specialized suits even in Gotham City. Batman would be so much more powerful.

jinzin
Originally posted by TheKahn
This isn't a standard fight:

Assume that you live in a major city anywhere around the world with a sizable crime rate and the occasional supervillian. Who would you rather have paroling the streets, Spiderman or Bats? And why? Who woudl be the best and quickest at reducing the crime rate and keeping the streets safe?

batman simply due to his recources and backup available...

leonidas
agreed. criminals are afraid of spidey -- they are TERRIFIED of bats. with his tech and resources, he'd do a better job imo.

Marcus4600
Because he could survive an encounter with Juggernaut. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Let's take a look at the Spider-Man rogues gallery:
Carnage
Green Goblin
Electro
The Kingpin (Kingpin with prep is Batman times 1000)
Kaine
Black Tarantula
Morlun
Namor (I don't give a damn what Knightfall says. Batman is bat-brunch)
Venom
Scorpion
Silver Sable
Scream
Sandman
Hydro-Man
The Life Foundation symbiotes


I'm sorry to say this, but Batman isn't as good as Spider-Man. You've got people on that list that eat tech for breakfast. What the hell is a tank gonna do against Morlun? Is a batarang going to do much against Kaine or Black Tarantula? How about Carnage, who is like Joker with an arsenal of weapons built into his skin? What about Juggernaut? I'm just gonna be honest right now. Batman has a hard time handling Slade. How the hell is he gonna handle people like Kingpin and Silvermane? Fear isn't gonna do much. These villains eat fear for breakfast. Some of Spider-Man's villains are scarier than anything that Batman has ever faced before. Batman is a great hero and all, but inferior to Spider-Man.

Murda Mase
Damn you just Spidey fanboyed out on that one....

RUNMAN
I agree that SpiderMan is better than BatMan and that SpiderMan's enemies or arch-enemies are stronger, more powerful and more intelligent than those of BatMan's.

juggernaut66666
spidermans wins with ease 1 good hit from spidey to batman and bats is dead

grey fox
Spiderman , batman just makes a city worse.

badabing
Killer Croc, Bane and Clay Face have powers. I think this fight is closer than people think. Coming from a Marvel fan. Do not under estimate Bats.batman

Thunderstrike
Spidey.

By the bye, why is Brainchild banned?

badabing
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Spidey.

By the bye, why is Brainchild banned?
When did that happen?

batdude123
I don't know exactly how well Spider-man would do against Batman's rouge gallery anyway. Batman's rouge gallery usually goes by brains and have really devious plans of taking over the city. Take Joker for example, the guy is insane but he's a freaking genious who's as smart, if not smarter than Batman. That's saying a lot. Anyway, the reason Joker's plans usually don't work, is because Batman can make himself think and reason like Joker; a madman. Spider-man could never think on the level that Joker does. He has no knowledge of Joker or how he thinks. Joker's plans would simply outsmart Spidey by a lot. I doubt Spider-man would do as well against Batman's gallery because Spider-man doesn't think like he does and he usually goes by brawn. While I realize that Spider-man is very smart, he's not as smart as Batman. Anyway, because of Batman's deviously smart gallery, I don't know if he'd do a better job than the Dark Knight himself. Well, that's just my two cents.

Kool-Aid
Originally posted by RUNMAN
I agree that SpiderMan is better than BatMan and that SpiderMan's enemies or arch-enemies are stronger, more powerful and more intelligent than those of BatMan's.


Okay, but what you think about Spider-Man and Batman?

batdude123
Originally posted by batdude123
I don't know exactly how well Spider-man would do against Batman's rouge gallery anyway. Batman's rouge gallery usually goes by brains and have really devious plans of taking over the city. Take Joker for example, the guy is insane but he's a freaking genious who's as smart, if not smarter than Batman. That's saying a lot. Anyway, the reason Joker's plans usually don't work, is because Batman can make himself think and reason like Joker; a madman. Spider-man could never think on the level that Joker does. He has no knowledge of Joker or how he thinks. Joker's plans would simply outsmart Spidey by a lot. I doubt Spider-man would do as well against Batman's gallery because Spider-man doesn't think like he does and he usually goes by brawn. While I realize that Spider-man is very smart, he's not as smart as Batman. Anyway, because of Batman's deviously smart gallery, I don't know if he'd do a better job than the Dark Knight himself. Well, that's just my two cents.

^^^

Kool-Aid
Originally posted by badabing
Killer Croc, Bane and Clay Face have powers. I think this fight is closer than people think. Coming from a Marvel fan. Do not under estimate Bats.batman


And theirs also Poisn Ivy whos now on par with swamp thing powers wise and Ra's.....the man who never dies.

MrHeavySilence
Originally posted by samishe
Now i'm sure you haven't ever read Spidey comix.

Where the hell you got from that all Spidey's villians have weaknesses.
He ussualy outthinks his enemies eathier.



True, but usually after the second or third try.



Tell me how Bats psychology will help him to beat Scorpion or Ock?



Both of these guys have giant losing streaks.


But sometimes there are cases when the only chance to win is to use brute strength.

But sometimes there are cases where psychology wins.

Thats batman's biggest disadvantage. He can find himself in situation in which he doesn't have prep time, in which he'll have no chance but to fight and his gadgets are not always gonna save him. So he'll be simply killed.

Doubt it, he might not be successful in the first fight, but a flash bang, run off and do some research, then come back and administer a beatdown. There's no way anybody is going to take him out so easy, he's just too smart for that.




Marcus - The Kingpin (Kingpin with prep is Batman times 1000)

confused no

Frothbyte - lots of batman fans i see....

Yeah, kinda surprised me.

Marcus4600 -

Carnage - Sonics

Green Goblin - Nah, the Ultimate version couldn't beat Captain America, so I think Bruce stands a pretty good chance. Plus he's got gadgets as well. Little bit of adhesive spray here and there, rig the glider, etc. I'm not saying that's how it will go down, but Bruce isn't going to flat-out die.

Electro - Lots of water.

The Kingpin - Batman/Dare Devil are pretty close; both of which could take him. Straight up, Kingpin would also get knocked down a knotch in the economic battle as well.

Kaine - Kaine is a clone, there's tons of psychological baggage on him. Bats would outsmart him.

Black Tarantula - This guy rules! #434-436 from Amaing Spidey are some of the ones that really got me back into Spidey comics. I don't think Peter has ever beaten him. I actually think Batman is more qualified than Spidey to hold this guy down because Bruce can be pretty tricky; he often convinces/persuades people with logic and reasoning. For example: his encounters with Darkseid, Captain Atom, or Joker. Bruce could keep him from misbehaving too much.

Morlun - You'd need prep to beat this guy. Radiation poisoning. Like the chemicals and stuff in Batman's suit. Or maybe trap him in a Batman-style cell and watch him weaken. Or lead him to a lab.

Namor - He's not really a Spidey villain. But, Batman could probably outsmart him (with prep) and use fear gas like Ra did on Aquaman in Towerl Of Babel. The fear gas made Aquaman dehydrate because he became afraid of water.

Venom - Sonics, like how Punisher holds it down.

Scorpion - Not the brightest.

Silver Sable - To be honest, I've only seen her a few times but I don't know her that well.

Scream - I'm not sure who this is either, sorry. Haven't seen her name come up lately. (Okay, I just checked her on wikipedia and I've seen her before, but never in decent showings so I don't know her that well)

Sandman - Liquid Nitrogen Capsules/Fermionic Gas/Freeze Bomb in the Bat Wing

Hydro-Man - I've seen him get taken down from electrified sprinklers once from Spiderman, so I assume electricity would be the way to defeat him. Bats keeps a 200,000 volt tazor with him, plus the suit defense mechanisms.


As you can see, it is CONCEIVABLE that Batman can easily beat these villains given enough time to adjust. You guys make it seem like Bats is immediately going to die. Well, not likely!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, Gotham seems like a lot tougher to handle than a small portion of New York where Spidey resides. Batman pretty much runs his own city. Spidey would have to do like 10x as much work. And from the Detective perspective, what will happen when the Riddler sends Spidey some riddles? If Riddler had a thermonuclear bomb, and he said, "You have 10 minutes to figure out this riddle and where I'm hiding or Gotham gets nuked." Spiderman would be constantly frustrated by arriving too late and coming up short each time. Innocent people would die because Batman wasn't there. Meanwhile, Spidey's neighborhood is much more "direct." The villains are usually pretty straightforward: "meet me at midnight, if you want to save Mary Jane be here, rob a convenience store and shout." Gotham City is a lot more complex.

That being said! Spiderman would be a lot more successful than Superman in handling Gotham City. I say this because very few of Batman's villains even have a chance of beating this guy, so Peter would be constantly putting the web-crawling can of whoop ass on these clowns. The only problem with Gotham is that he's going to find out that most of Batman's villains fight in some very exterior ways. They'd employ lots of psychological attacks on Peter, and he's probably not going to have a successful impact.

marvelprince
Originally posted by batdude123
I don't know exactly how well Spider-man would do against Batman's rouge gallery anyway. Batman's rouge gallery usually goes by brains and have really devious plans of taking over the city. Take Joker for example, the guy is insane but he's a freaking genious who's as smart, if not smarter than Batman. That's saying a lot. Anyway, the reason Joker's plans usually don't work, is because Batman can make himself think and reason like Joker; a madman. Spider-man could never think on the level that Joker does. He has no knowledge of Joker or how he thinks. Joker's plans would simply outsmart Spidey by a lot. I doubt Spider-man would do as well against Batman's gallery because Spider-man doesn't think like he does and he usually goes by brawn. While I realize that Spider-man is very smart, he's not as smart as Batman. Anyway, because of Batman's deviously smart gallery, I don't know if he'd do a better job than the Dark Knight himself. Well, that's just my two cents.

I'm sorry, but I have to dissagree with most of what you said. Spider-Man's villians consist of a lot of brillant minds. Doc Oc and Green Goblin comes to mind. The Joker? I understand he's great but in terms of planning I place him on par with Silvermane and Kingpin. Now those guys are strategical genuises. Don't say Spider-Man can't think like a madman. You should check out Maximum Carnage, during which he thinks like Carnage to not only locate him but beat him. And Carnage is one insane mo' fo'. Spider-Man's not as smart as Batman? No, he's not but he's no slouch either. Besides comparatively he's still young and knows alot for his age. By no means should you think that Batman makes him look stupid. You mentioned Batman's deviously smart gallery. Most of them aren't. They just happen to know the ins and outs of organized crime. Does that make them geniuses? I doubt it. And with the exception of Joker, and more recently Hush who really screws around with Dark Knights mind like Venom and Osborn used to. You greatly underestimate Spider-Man

marvelprince
You know what, why is there even a discussion on who's villians are better. Both typically face different kinds of enemies anyway. They're villians are typically similar to the hero. Batman will generally face the 'human' villian who just through their brains would become one of the most dangerous person around (Joker, Black Mask, Hush, Penguin) while Spider-Man typically faces villians with powersets typically similar to his or at least animal related (Doctor Octupus, Rhino, Venom, Vulture). In the end their galleries are different and both heroes use differnent methods to counteract their foes. If someone wants to discuss villians someone start a thread for it.

Now as too Batman vs Spider-Man. Batman w/ no prep doesn't stand a chance against SPider-Man.

batdude123
Originally posted by marvelprince
I'm sorry, but I have to dissagree with most of what you said. Spider-Man's villians consist of a lot of brillant minds. Doc Oc and Green Goblin comes to mind. The Joker? I understand he's great but in terms of planning I place him on par with Silvermane and Kingpin. Now those guys are strategical genuises. Don't say Spider-Man can't think like a madman. You should check out Maximum Carnage, during which he thinks like Carnage to not only locate him but beat him. And Carnage is one insane mo' fo'. Spider-Man's not as smart as Batman? No, he's not but he's no slouch either. Besides comparatively he's still young and knows alot for his age. By no means should you think that Batman makes him look stupid. You mentioned Batman's deviously smart gallery. Most of them aren't. They just happen to know the ins and outs of organized crime. Does that make them geniuses? I doubt it. And with the exception of Joker, and more recently Hush who really screws around with Dark Knights mind like Venom and Osborn used to. You greatly underestimate Spider-Man

I'm not underestimating Spider-man for one second. I even mentioned that Spider-man is smart. Anyways, I'd rather have Batman defend Gotham because he actually knows how Joker and other villans that he deals with on a consitant basis think. Spider-man wouldn't really know what to expect. I'm in noway saying that Batman would do better in New York than Spider-man. I just simply think that Spider-man as well, wouldn't do as good a job as Batman in Gotham. wink With that said, if I lived in Gotham, I know I'd sure want to have Batman protect me rather than Spider-man. He's got experience on the city that Spider-man can't touch.

batdude123
Originally posted by marvelprince
You know what, why is there even a discussion on who's villians are better. Both typically face different kinds of enemies anyway. They're villians are typically similar to the hero. Batman will generally face the 'human' villian who just through their brains would become one of the most dangerous person around (Joker, Black Mask, Hush, Penguin) while Spider-Man typically faces villians with powersets typically similar to his or at least animal related (Doctor Octupus, Rhino, Venom, Vulture). In the end their galleries are different and both heroes use differnent methods to counteract their foes. If someone wants to discuss villians someone start a thread for it.

Now as too Batman vs Spider-Man. Batman w/ no prep doesn't stand a chance against SPider-Man.

Yes, but don't count out some of Batman's other powerful foes either. Clayface, Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, etc... But all in all, I agree that Spidey has the more powerful foes.

marvelprince
Originally posted by batdude123
I'm not underestimating Spider-man for one second. I even mentioned that Spider-man is smart. Anyways, I'd rather have Batman defend Gotham because he actually knows how Joker and other villans that he deals with on a consitant basis think. Spider-man wouldn't really know what to expect. I'm in noway saying that Batman would do better in New York than Spider-man. I just simply think that Spider-man as well, wouldn't do as good a job as Batman in Gotham. wink With that said, if I lived in Gotham, I know I'd sure want to have Batman protect me rather than Spider-man. He's got experience on the city that Spider-man can't touch.

I guess thats a matter of opinion then cause I know I would prefer to not only have a guy who I know is genuis, but someone who I also know has powers to back up themselves up.

This is not factoring experience of course

marvelprince
Originally posted by batdude123
Yes, but don't count out some of Batman's other powerful foes either. Clayface, Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, etc... But all in all, I agree that Spidey has the more powerful foes.

I remembered them but I didn't count them cause they usually are easily exploited since they have obviously weakens with Batman esily exploits. Ivy and weed-killer Clayface and water/ice and Croc with sonics

batdude123
Originally posted by marvelprince
I guess thats a matter of opinion then cause I know I would prefer to not only have a guy who I know is genuis, but someone who I also know has powers to back up themselves up.

This is not factoring experience of course

Yep, I guess it's just a matter of opinion. wink

Kool-Aid
Originally posted by marvelprince
Doc Oc and Green Goblin comes to mind. The Joker? I understand he's great but in terms of planning I place him on par with Silvermane and Kingpin.


WTF?

You're carzy...

batdude123
Originally posted by Kool-Aid
WTF?

You're carzy...

Agreed. That quote is rather... disturbing.

Kool-Aid
Originally posted by marvelprince
I remembered them but I didn't count them cause they usually are easily exploited since they have obviously weakens with Batman esily exploits. Ivy and weed-killer Clayface and water/ice and Croc with sonics


Venom sonics, Morlun radiation, Electro water ect..

marvelprince
Originally posted by Kool-Aid
WTF?

You're carzy...

Yea, I haven't seen much from that Joker that suggests he's a master planner. Only repeated evidence that he's insane. And if you feel Kingpin isn't a master planner then you should consider picking up some Daredevil back issues

marvelprince
Originally posted by Kool-Aid
Venom sonics, Morlun radiation, Electro water ect..

Which was why I didn't include them either.

Cept for Venom, an i'll take that one back then

Kool-Aid
Originally posted by marvelprince
Yea, I've seen nothing from that Joker that suggests he's a master planner. Only repeated evidence that he's insane. And if you feel Kingpin isn't a master planner then you should consider picking up some Daredevil back issues


http://agent0x7.tripod.com/joker1.html

I do read DD comics, you were the one putting Kingpin on a low pedestal





Originally posted by marvelprince
Which was why I didn't include them either.

Cept for Venom, an i'll take that one back then


The only one on your list that Batman or one of his villians could possibly not beat is Venom.

Aunt May could beat Rhino...I think she has.laughing

marvelprince
Originally posted by Kool-Aid
http://agent0x7.tripod.com/joker1.html

I do read DD comics, you were the one putting Kingpin on a low pedestal

I put Kingpin on a low pedestal? Do that mean that you agree that Kingpin is a master planner? I thought the disagreement was that you thought i downplaying Joker.


Originally posted by Kool-Aid
The only one on your list that Batman or one of his villians could possibly not beat is Venom.

First off, thats a matter of opinion, one I don't share. Secondly, that wasn't the point. I wasn't comparing Spidey and Bat villians in terms of strength. I was comparing the villians to their respective heroes to show the similarities

Originally posted by Kool-Aid
Aunt May could beat Rhino...I think she has.laughing

Of course. I hear Aunt May is ruthless with a frying pan

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