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Recent Spider-Man vs. Diamond Lil. Will Spider-Man fair better than last time?

No prep
Location: New York City

What happened last time?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Diamond Lil vs. Spider-Man
Alpha Flight #74- A wacky alternate reality world Talisman stumpled upon. It's actually a varation of the Dream Queen's world, but Puck commands this plane. Yet at the time Alpha Flight doesn't know it and Puck doesn't know they are here. Here is a summary of the wacky arc that goes to #74 to #75. Anyways here Lil survives a multiple story fall, her body is fine but she still feels the pain and now must battle a perverted Spider-Man. His webbing won't stick to her bio-aura, and an enraged Diamond Lil ends up killing the web-slinger.

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-18.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-19.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-21.jpg
4. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-22.jpg
5. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-23.jpg

Well If she can turn to Diamond what could he do?

Originally posted by golem370
Well If she can turn to Diamond what could he do?

She can't turn into diamond she has a bio-aura, and he can still do a few things but I will leave that up to others to point out.

I would say Spider-Man knowing how good she is he would be able to stick and move and take her out like that I mean his reflexes are 15 times better then the average male

Originally posted by golem370
I would say Spider-Man knowing how good she is would be able to stick and move and take her out like that I mean his reflexes are 15 times better then the average male

He doesn't know how good she is, they have never have come face to face in the 616 universe.

It's anybodies ball game

I'd give this to Spidey, but he'd only do it by wearing her out, or stinger to the head.

Spidey's punches seemed to affect her, so since he is superior in all aspects except durability, i give this fight to him.
Btw, it remains a mystery to me how a woman with normal reflexes and average fighting skills, who discribes her opponent as moving so fast that he's just a blur to her, can grab him despite his spidersense and superior reflexes and throw him into a wall, which breaks his bones, despite the fact, that he's slamming against or even through walls all the time without being severely injured.

She actually is the same strength as him and has super reflexes. Also she fell over 100 stories and she was fine, she felt pain but her body was fine and right afterwards she fought Spider-Man.

Originally posted by golem370
I would say Spider-Man knowing how good she is he would be able to stick and move and take her out like that I mean his reflexes are 15 times better then the average male

Actually 40 times better.
And WTF she killed him by hitting wall with him?
A guy who took Hulk's hits died that easilly. Bullsh!t!

Originally posted by samishe
Actually 40 times better.
And WTF she killed him by hitting wall with him?
A guy who took Hulk's hits died that easilly. Bullsh!t!

yup thats true. But I think he had to die
because he was a pervert, no one likes pervert Spiders

Originally posted by Arahan
yup thats true. But I think he had to die
because he was a pervert, no one likes pervert Spiders

Originally posted by King_Mungi
She actually is the same strength as him and has super reflexes. Also she fell over 100 stories and she was fine, she felt pain but her body was fine and right afterwards she fought Spider-Man. She has super reflexes???
Well, nonetheless she described Spidey's moves as being a mere blur to her, him being able to dodge every of her strikes - and suddenly she is able to grab this faster man with the spidersense and throws him at a wall with 10 tons class strength (i have to take your word for it) and he instantly dies???!!! You have to admit, that this story's scenario is veeerrryyy far fetched...at best!

That she can feel pain is all what it takes to bring her down. You can only feel pain, when at least a little damage is done. Just hit her till she gets unconscious from the pain...
Spidey obviously caused her pain in these scans of yours when he was 10 tons class and a bad guy (the only reason why he lost...i bet you know that), now he is 15 tons class and a good guy - he will most certainly win!

Originally posted by wannabe
She has super reflexes???
Well, nonetheless she described Spidey's moves as being a mere blur to her, him being able to dodge every of her strikes - and suddenly she is able to grab this faster man with the spidersense and throws him at a wall with 10 tons class strength (i have to take your word for it) and he instantly dies???!!! You have to admit, that this story's scenario is veeerrryyy far fetched...at best!

That she can feel pain is all what it takes to bring her down. You can only feel pain, when at least a little damage is done. Just hit her till she gets unconscious from the pain...
Spidey obviously caused her pain in these scans of yours when he was 10 tons class and a bad guy (the only reason why he lost...i bet you know that), now he is 15 tons class and a good guy - he will most certainly win!

No she said "he moved so fast I could hardly see him", nothing about a blur and she grabbed him in mid-air you can't dodge in mid-air. Also she crushed his skull, he doesn't have high durability him taking hits from Hulk are farfetched. It's actually a likely scenario since Spider-Man would have to go melee against her due to his webs won't work.

No one has knocked her out that way, and if falling from 100 stories doesn't do it then Spider-Man is going to have one hell of a time.

She was still hurt from the fall, they even stated that, and she has taken hits from She Hulk and beat her so she is in good company.
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-19.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight74-22.jpg

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No she said "he moved so fast I could hardly see him", nothing about a blur So "moved so fast I could hardly see him" is better than "being a blur to me"?
I always though these are two ways of saying: "HE'S F*CKING FASTER THAN ME!".

Originally posted by King_Mungi
and she grabbed him in mid-air you can't dodge in mid-air. Also she crushed his skull, he doesn't have high durability him taking hits from Hulk are farfetched. It's actually a likely scenario since Spider-Man would have to go melee against her due to his webs won't work.1) How was she able to see and react to this particular attack when he was so much faster?
2) Spidey still could have bent his leg, so that she would have been unable to grab it.
3) Forget the Hulk feat, simply remember his fights against Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Venom, Carnage, Doc Oc, Rhino, Titania, Morlun etc. etc. etc.
How many times did he get a full punch into his face by foes who were stronger than him, was he smashed into and through walls - even head forward, did he fall from great heights, did he become squashed by super strong opponents without suffering severe damage...and suddenly there is this far slower 10-tonner, grabbing him and killing him with one swing into a wall???!!!
I understand that you like her and all characters canadien or Alpha Flight related, but really...
Originally posted by King_Mungi
No one has knocked her out that way, and if falling from 100 stories doesn't do it then Spider-Man is going to have one hell of a time.
She was still hurt from the fall, they even stated that, and she has taken hits from She Hulk and beat her so she is in good company.I said ... will most certainly win, not ...will definitly win.
Sure DL would not be an easy win for Peter, but he has repeatedly won against more powerful opponents than she is (and i'm not talking of such ridiculous feats like Hulk or Firelord), so...

Really this is all Spidey would have to do (the principle should still work with organic web shooters):

http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidermanvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidermanblobcapture8ts.jpg

Originally posted by wannabe
So "moved so fast I could hardly see him" is better than "being a blur to me"?
I always though these are two ways of saying: "HE'S F*CKING FASTER THAN ME!".

1) How was she able to see and react to this particular attack when he was so much faster?
2) Spidey still could have bent his leg, so that she would have been unable to grab it.
3) Forget the Hulk feat, simply remember his fights against Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Venom, Carnage, Doc Oc, Rhino, Titania, Morlun etc. etc. etc.
How many times did he get a full punch into his face by foes who were stronger than him, was he smashed into and through walls - even head forward, did he fall from great heights, did he become squashed by super strong opponents without suffering severe damage...and suddenly there is this far slower 10-tonner, grabbing him and killing him with one swing into a wall???!!!
I understand that you like her and all characters canadien or Alpha Flight related, but really...
I said ... will most certainly win, not ...will definitly win.
Sure DL would not be an easy win for Peter, but he has repeatedly won against more powerful opponents than she is (and i'm not talking of such ridiculous feats like Hulk or Firelord), so...

Blur means you can't see the person, she still could. Yes he was faster than him, but she still beat him

1) She has heightened reflexes as well, and he did the same move twice she used her head.
2) He was already passed the point of no return, he was commited with the move and why does everyone think with the Spider-sense Spider-Man can't get hit?
3) yes, but did any of them crush his skull? and full fledge Rhino punches or Titania should have killed him, it's the same thing with most of Wolverine's feats. Like Batman he does things he isn't suppose to do, He ISN'T that durable, his powers don't grant him that sort of durability. Oh shut up I hate it when people say that when in many threads I have stated many Alpha FLight characters lose certain battles.

I never said Diamond Lil would win at all in this thread, but you guys are making it like Spider-Man would win so easily. When she herself has gone against worse and prevailed as well.

Well in the new FNS#6 spidey used the stingers by accident and hit this wrestler on the leg and it had some weird effect and it knocked the wrestler out.......
Might of been some sort of poison.........

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Blur means you can't see the person, she still could.???
My dictionary, my uncle (an american) and my time in England say something about 'blur' meaning: not clearly visible, make or become unclear, seen with unsharp contoures, confused in appearance... (pretty close to "could hardly see", isn't it?!)
I always thought invisible means you can't see the person?! But you are the native speaker, so correct me if i'm wrong.

However, forget the blur, "moved so fast I could hardly see him" still means: "HE'S A LOT FASTER THAN ME!".
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes he was faster than him, but she still beat him
Obviously she is victorious in this story. I never questioned the fact itself, but the way it happened!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
1) She has heightened reflexes as well, and he did the same move twice she used her head.
2) He was already passed the point of no return, he was commited with the move and why does everyone think with the Spider-sense Spider-Man can't get hit?1) I did a little research and found no comment about her having heightened reflexes, but since you are the Alpha Flight expert i assume you have evidence. However, he was still so much faster, that she could hardly see him (imagine that!!!). In a fight it's not important how good your reflexes are compared to an average human, it's important how good they are compared to your opponent!
2) There is no point of no return in a move with a straight leg for bending the leg.
I certainly don't think Spidey can't get hit in general. But i do think, that a person who describes him as moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily shouldn't be able to hit him when you add his Spider-sense to his superior reflexes. Is it unreasonable to think so?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
3) yes, but did any of them crush his skull? No, but that exactly was my point!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
...and full fledge Rhino punches or Titania should have killed him, it's the same thing with most of Wolverine's feats. Like Batman he does things he isn't suppose to do, He ISN'T that durable, his powers don't grant him that sort of durability. If you go with someones punches and not against them, you can take away a lot of it's momentum, especially when you are as fast as Spiderman.
But even when you ignore Rhino and Titania, there are still all the others i mentioned, which are undeniably his level. Spidey was a 10-tonner, easily able to smash right through a wall, through steel even, if it was not too thick. In order to use this kind of strength he has to have a comparable durability or his strength would damage his muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones. So if someone with comparable strength smashes him against a wall he could easily tear down and it kills him instantly, how believable is that?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I never said Diamond Lil would win at all in this thread, but you guys are making it like Spider-Man would win so easily.I never did. I just pointed out how strange and unbelievable i find her victory and why. And yes i still think Spidey will most likly win

Oh, and TheKhan is right with these stunts...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg

Originally posted by wannabe
???
My dictionary, my uncle (an american) and my time in England say something about 'blur' meaning: not clearly visible, make or become unclear, seen with unsharp contoures, confused in appearance... (pretty close to "could hardly see", isn't it?!)
I always thought invisible means you can't see the person?! But you are the native speaker, so correct me if i'm wrong.

However, forget the blur, "moved so fast I could hardly see him" still means: "HE'S A LOT FASTER THAN ME!".

Obviously she is victorious in this story. I never questioned the fact itself, but the way it happened!
1) I did a little research and found no comment about her having heightened reflexes, but since you are the Alpha Flight expert i assume you have evidence. However, he was still so much faster, that she could hardly see him (imagine that!!!). In a fight it's not important how good your reflexes are compared to an average human, it's important how good they are compared to your opponent!
2) There is no point of no return in a move with a straight leg for bending the leg.
I certainly don't think Spidey can't get hit in general. But i do think, that a person who describes him as moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily shouldn't be able to hit him when you add his Spider-sense to his superior reflexes. Is it unreasonable to think so?
If you go with someones punches and not against them, you can take away a lot of it's momentum, especially when you are as fast as Spiderman.


But even when you ignore Rhino and Titania, there are still all the others i mentioned, which are undeniably his level. Spidey was a 10-tonner, easily able to smash right through a wall, through steel even, if it was not too thick. In order to use this kind of strength he has to have a comparable durability or his strength would damage his muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones. So if someone with comparable strength smashes him against a wall he could easily tear down and it kills him instantly, how believable is that?
I never did. I just pointed out how strange and unbelievable i find her victory and why. And yes i still think Spidey will most likly win

Oh, and TheKhan is right with these stunts...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg

blur usually implies you don't get a look at them, something to the effect Flash does. That's fine, I even said that.

1. You won't find much information on her, even the handbooks have inaccuricies with her entry. Just look at the scans in the respect thread to judge it. Also her reflexes are good, but Spider-Man's are better just make that clear. Also in another fight she caught Puck who speed and agility rivals Spider-man as well as Northstar.
2. Yes there is when your in full momentum going forward and your just about to kick something bending your leg isn't going to help much since your still going to go in the targets area, Diamond Lil would still have grabbed him. Remember she was in pain from the fall and he arrived, she was not 100% as the scans said.

Rhino jobs every single fight, also so what? realistically a full fledge punch from a 85 ton fist from Rhino would do serious damage to a 10-tonner. He does have a degree of durability, but not that large. No way should he be able to take a full attack from the Rhino. Also even a person weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be uberly stronger than the person to do it. Your implying Spider-Man has a high durability factor that means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything. It's not reasponsible and not likely, even the handbook does not give Spider-Man a high degree of durability. He and Wolverine are their key characters, but they are shown to do things they shouldn't be able to. Like you said the good guys win.

Yes it does work and that's what I was implying here: "She can't turn into diamond she has a bio-aura, and he can still do a few things but I will leave that up to others to point out.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
blur usually implies you don't get a look at them, something to the effect Flash does. That's fine, I even said that. Ok, if you say so!
Still strange, that all other native speakers i know (and there are a lot in my family and among friends) use it as you don't get a clear look at whatever, which is pretty much the same as can hardly see whatever!

Originally posted by King_Mungi
1. You won't find much information on her, even the handbooks have inaccuricies with her entry. Just look at the scans in the respect thread to judge it. Also her reflexes are good, but Spider-Man's are better just make that clear. Also in another fight she caught Puck who speed and agility rivals Spider-man as well as Northstar.
2. Yes there is when your in full momentum going forward and your just about to kick something bending your leg isn't going to help much since your still going to go in the targets area, Diamond Lil would still have grabbed him. Remember she was in pain from the fall and he arrived, she was not 100% as the scans said.1) All i'm talking about is, that DL herself describes him as being a lot faster than herself, combined with his Spider-sense, her grabbing him just like this makes this feat rather unrealistic.
When she was able to get a hold on the likes of Northstar, it was either a plot device exaggeration in favour of the stories drama, which is sometimes ok in a comic, or she is up there with Peter, Kurt, Remy and Jean-Paul when it comes to quickness. If the first is correct, well, in this forum we're discussing the characters according to their abilities, not to any plot, drama or popularity scale. If the latter should be the case, i would not argue here, but then why she says something about him like moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily?!
2) She clearly gets him at his ankle in the pic. So when he would have bent his leg, she would have grabbed thin air. He would still crush into her, true, but she would not have gained a hold on him.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Rhino jobs every single fight, also so what? realistically a full fledge punch from a 85 ton fist from Rhino would do serious damage to a 10-tonner. He does have a degree of durability, but not that large. No way should he be able to take a full attack from the Rhino. Also even a person weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be uberly stronger than the person to do it. Your implying Spider-Man has a high durability factor that means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything. It's not reasponsible and not likely, even the handbook does not give Spider-Man a high degree of durability. He and Wolverine are their key characters, but they are shown to do things they shouldn't be able to. Like you said the good guys win.I already dropped Rhino and the likes as admissible evidence for Peters durability one or two posts ago, so why do you keep using them to counter my arguments? (btw, this discussion with you is yet most enjoyable)

Yes, even a weaker person can break someones neck. But Spidey is proving to be durable enough to endure being smashed against and through walls every now and then. And within his power class it also makes perfect sense. He still gets bruises and it hurts, but he clearly survives...and that is from the beginning of his career.

I was simply pointing out why it is reasonable to assume, that Peter is at least durable enough to endure his own strength, which is a relative comment. So why are you taking this thought and turn it into an absolutum like: "...means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything."?

I completely agree with you, that the main characters repeatedly do things they usually should not be able to do - and it s*cks. But in this scenario it is DL who does something she should not be able to do, and isn't she a good "guy" too?!
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes it does work and that's what I was implying here: "She can't turn into diamond she has a bio-aura, and he can still do a few things but I will leave that up to others to point out. Spidey can still do this stunt...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg
The net does not have to stick to her to do this.

Sorry for not getting back to you, I went out for St.Pats and then had to work in the morning so right now I'm in rough shape. I won't be able to reply till 6 tommorow, since I'm going out again tonight and I work once again in the morning

Sorry.

Originally posted by wannabe
Ok, if you say so!
Still strange, that all other native speakers i know (and there are a lot in my family and among friends) use it as you don't get a clear look at whatever, which is pretty much the same as can hardly see whatever!


1) All i'm talking about is, that DL herself describes him as being a lot faster than herself, combined with his Spider-sense, her grabbing him just like this makes this feat rather unrealistic.
When she was able to get a hold on the likes of Northstar, it was either a plot device exaggeration in favour of the stories drama, which is sometimes ok in a comic, or she is up there with Peter, Kurt, Remy and Jean-Paul when it comes to quickness. If the first is correct, well, in this forum we're discussing the characters according to their abilities, not to any plot, drama or popularity scale. If the latter should be the case, i would not argue here, but then why she says something about him like moving so fast she can hardly see him and dodging her punches easily?!
2) She clearly gets him at his ankle in the pic. So when he would have bent his leg, she would have grabbed thin air. He would still crush into her, true, but she would not have gained a hold on him.
I already dropped Rhino and the likes as admissible evidence for Peters durability one or two posts ago, so why do you keep using them to counter my arguments? (btw, this discussion with you is yet most enjoyable)

Yes, even a weaker person can break someones neck. But Spidey is proving to be durable enough to endure being smashed against and through walls every now and then. And within his power class it also makes perfect sense. He still gets bruises and it hurts, but he clearly survives...and that is from the beginning of his career.

I was simply pointing out why it is reasonable to assume, that Peter is at least durable enough to endure his own strength, which is a relative comment. So why are you taking this thought and turn it into an absolutum like: "...means he has basically iron laced bones which prevent him from breaking anything."?



I completely agree with you, that the main characters repeatedly do things they usually should not be able to do - and it s*cks. But in this scenario it is DL who does something she should not be able to do, and isn't she a good "guy" too?!
Spidey can still do this stunt...
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...nvsblob16xu.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?...bcapture8ts.jpg

The net does not have to stick to her to do this.
It's basically the same thing, but she didn't make a comment about him being a blur. For all we know him jumping all over the places made it hard for her to follow his movements on where he was going to attack, but not be literally a blur. Which makes sense.

1) Once again remember she just fell 100 stories so she wasn't in top shape and prior to been tossed from the air she just had a battle with She Hulk and won. Correction on my behalf it was Aurora when she was in her mach 1 phase, and basically did the same thing used her durability to lure her in. The fight didn't end, just showed she could "catch" her. She is really quick, has been trained by Department H for years, literally the Canadian SHIELD and most cases have more advanced technology than them. She has "caught" Puck before as well, they were rivals before and his agility and speed rival Spider-Man
2) Maybe, but while Spider-Man was flying towards her we see she is reading to grab him, the way she was positoned she still could have grabbed either leg even if he did move it. No way would his spider-senses have pre-cog and warn him something like this would happen or it would kill him. In many cases when his spider-senses activate they just warn him, not tell him what's going on. However, at times the spider-senses have done that as well. The Rhino comment is an overall comment about Spider-Man does things he shouldn't be able to. Even a full force punch from Spider-Man should seriously injure his hand since he isn't that durable, but is not shown as thus.

Still, it's more realistic this way due to the things Spider-Man does is not possible with his power-set. He isn't that durable, he's marvel's key tickets and is hown thuce. Does Wolverine being shown to stab Thanos and Silver Surfer make it right? not at all. Anything can happen in a fight, been tossed into a building head first would snap your neck. His bones are not that durable, like really when multiple ton fighters get togther one punch should send the one person flying hundreds of feet, but that never happens.

because a person even weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be stronger than them. You hit them at the right place with the right amount of force you can break anything. Scorpion, Venom, Doc Ock are all stronger than him but they didn't crush his head against a wall. Even one good punch can crush a person's skull, it doesn't matter who is stronger.

Wolverine is one of the worst cases of him doing things he shouldn't be able to do. Nope, she has been a bad guy most of her career, she was even responsible for the death of Guardian . She was a temporally ally of Alpha Flight, but I believe even recently she was shown siding with Apoc and prior to that was a secret agent for Weapon X.

Links don't work, is it the one with Blob? if so then yes it does work, even said so earlier.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
1) Once again remember she just fell 100 stories so she wasn't in top shape and prior to been tossed from the air she just had a battle with She Hulk and won. Correction on my behalf it was Aurora when she was in her mach 1 phase, and basically did the same thing used her durability to lure her in. The fight didn't end, just showed she could "catch" her. She is really quick, has been trained by Department H for years, literally the Canadian SHIELD and most cases have more advanced technology than them. She has "caught" Puck before as well, they were rivals before and his agility and speed rival Spider-Man As i already told you, there are only two possibilities:
1) She is indeed as fast as Puck and Spidey, making it sensible that she is able to grab them in the comics and i'm on the wrong track discussing this point...
or
2)...she is not (and her comment indicates, that he's a lot faster) and it is just an exaggeration feat to further and nourish the story, which is often done and more often than not ok (Spidey would otherwise be virtually unbeatable for most streetlevellers, which would be most boring in the comics). Such feats are not very believable, but if the story needs it...

Thing is, in this forum we're discussing character confrontations without considering stories and drama - just plain power and it's logical consequences.
So before we turn full circle in our discussion: Is 1) or 2) the more fitting?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
2) Maybe, but while Spider-Man was flying towards her we see she is reading to grab him, the way she was positoned she still could have grabbed either leg even if he did move it. No way would his spider-senses have pre-cog and warn him something like this would happen or it would kill him. In many cases when his spider-senses activate they just warn him, not tell him what's going on. However, at times the spider-senses have done that as well.She reads a person she describes like "moved so fast, i could hardly see him" two panels ago?!
"No way would his Spider-sense have precog and warn him...", the same Spidersense that makes Peter dodge bullets and energy blasts, even in close quarters...an official ability of his?
I think we're reaching a level of wishful guessing and preoccupied interpretation, that is a perfect point to stop this particular point of discussion.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
The Rhino comment is an overall comment about Spider-Man does things he shouldn't be able to. Even a full force punch from Spider-Man should seriously injure his hand since he isn't that durable, but is not shown as thus.
Still, it's more realistic this way due to the things Spider-Man does is not possible with his power-set. He isn't that durable, he's marvel's key tickets and is hown thuce. Does Wolverine being shown to stab Thanos and Silver Surfer make it right? not at all. Anything can happen in a fight, been tossed into a building head first would snap your neck. His bones are not that durable, like really when multiple ton fighters get togther one punch should send the one person flying hundreds of feet, but that never happens.

because a person even weaker than me can snap my neck, you don't have to be stronger than them. You hit them at the right place with the right amount of force you can break anything. Scorpion, Venom, Doc Ock are all stronger than him but they didn't crush his head against a wall. Even one good punch can crush a person's skull, it doesn't matter who is stronger.You make it sound as if you have precise and decisive data about Spiderman's durability?! As far as i can remember, the only thing that is known is, that his superpowers make him far more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to be bulletproof. The approximate degree of his durability can thus only be measured by looking at his feats and logic.
Logic dictates, that he is at least durable enough to endure his own strength.
The feats consistently show us his durability is good enough to make him well survive being thrown through walls, multiple stories falls, being punched by characters of roughly his own strength class (Goblins, Symbiotes, Doc Oc...) and those far above it (Rhino, Firelord...). Since the last feat would logically need him to be at least durable enough to also be bulletproof, and he is officially not, it can be considered an exaggeration feat, made to flourish the story and celebrate the character. This is indeed comparable to the mentioned Wolverine feats.
Leaves us with all the other durability feats that do not defy logic or official background informations about his powers. Since we're talking about super powers and have no other pieces of circumstantial evidence but these consistent feats, it is only logical and reasonable to assume, that Spiderman's durability simply is at least as high as shown.
This again strongly implies, that DL killing Peter just like that by smashing him against a wall is an exaggeration feat of hers, thus not admissible as backup, just like Spidey taking a full hit by Rhino is not admissible as one of his high end durability feats (that it is exaggeration to make Rhino able to hit Peter in the first place, is another story).
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nope, she has been a bad guy most of her career, she was even responsible for the death of Guardian . She was a temporally ally of Alpha Flight, but I believe even recently she was shown siding with Apoc and prior to that was a secret agent for Weapon X.Important is only who is the "good guy" in this particular story. How would you answer an according question?

ah dude if spidey had won he would have raped her.
So Spidey bad and he had to die. Stupid death.

Originally posted by wannabe

As i already told you, there are only two possibilities:
1) She is indeed as fast as Puck and Spidey, making it sensible that she is able to grab them in the comics and i'm on the wrong track discussing this point...
or
2)...she is not (and her comment indicates, that he's a lot faster) and it is just an exaggeration feat to further and nourish the story, which is often done and more often than not ok (Spidey would otherwise be virtually unbeatable for most streetlevellers, which would be most boring in the comics). Such feats are not very believable, but if the story needs it...

Thing is, in this forum we're discussing character confrontations without considering stories and drama - just plain power and it's logical consequences.

So before we turn full circle in our discussion: Is 1) or 2) the more fitting?


Number #1 is accurate, due to she which I forgot to mention before was traveling in Llan's dimensions for a day with no food and water fighting between dimensions and got teleported into this reality where her and Alpha Flight fought the Avengers, she took on She-Hulk and won and then Rogue dropped her hundreds of stories in the air. Then finally Spider-Man appeared, she was far....FAR from being 100%

That's fine, I'm not saying Diamond Lil even wins, just the fact that this scene is believable. Spider-Man isn't that durable. Diamond Lil and Spider-Man have similar abilities, but Lil has the durability while Spider-Man has more speed.

Originally posted by wannabe
She reads a person she describes like "moved so fast, i could hardly see him" two panels ago?!
"No way would his Spider-sense have precog and warn him...", the same Spidersense that makes Peter dodge bullets and energy blasts, even in close quarters...an official ability of his?
I think we're reaching a level of wishful guessing and preoccupied interpretation, that is a perfect point to stop this particular point of discussion.


Except she has caught faster people before, so no something does not add up. It's not overall speed, but the sheer movement and the pattern that might have screwed her up.

Not really, seeing as most cases he sees the guns point blank and I have seen many cases where his spider-sense activates and DOES not tell him what the immediate danger is. I even have comics which explains the spider-sense and he says point blank it doesn't. Yet, at times it has been shown to some him. So his spider-sense is iffy at best.

That's fine with me, were getting completly off-topic.

Originally posted by wannabe
You make it sound as if you have precise and decisive data about Spiderman's durability?! As far as i can remember, the only thing that is known is, that his superpowers make him far more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to be bulletproof. The approximate degree of his durability can thus only be measured by looking at his feats and logic.

Logic dictates, that he is at least durable enough to endure his own strength.


The feats consistently show us his durability is good enough to make him well survive being thrown through walls, multiple stories falls, being punched by characters of roughly his own strength class (Goblins, Symbiotes, Doc Oc...) and those far above it (Rhino, Firelord...). Since the last feat would logically need him to be at least durable enough to also be bulletproof, and he is officially not, it can be considered an exaggeration feat, made to flourish the story and celebrate the character. This is indeed comparable to the mentioned Wolverine feats.
Leaves us with all the other durability feats that do not defy logic or official background informations about his powers. Since we're talking about super powers and have no other pieces of circumstantial evidence but these consistent feats, it is only logical and reasonable to assume, that Spiderman's durability simply is at least as high as shown.

This again strongly implies, that DL killing Peter just like that by smashing him against a wall is an exaggeration feat of hers, thus not admissible as backup, just like Spidey taking a full hit by Rhino is not admissible as one of his high end durability feats (that it is exaggeration to make Rhino able to hit Peter in the first place, is another story).



Well considering the most comics I have of one series being 250+ issues is none other than Spider-Man I think I know what I'm talking about. He is more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to survive a head crushing attack. Hell, even recently he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw

That would be wrong, since many characters who are stronger than some still lose due to skill or just overall luck. Which can be linked to Diamond Lil, since she wasn't trying to kill him just to make him stop. Like even Spider-Man has gave Namor a run for his money, he is Marvel's poster-boy they have him go against people he should't win against but he does.

Multiple story falls? No way is he that durable, the fall would he be able to survive to high of a fall he really isn't that durable. If he actually could do that, that would make him have metahuman durability and basically being bulletproof. His durability is decent, but not decent enough to fully survive a head crushing blow. Would this happen again if they fought? *shrugs* up to others to decide. Taking hits from someone your strength is different than getting your own strength being tossed straight into a brick wall.

That's fine, I don't think Diamond Lil wins all their fights it comes down to luck and skill. Diamond Lil got the better of him one time, could be different the next hence why I made this thread. However, like I mentioned earlier he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw recently

Originally posted by wannabe

Important is only who is the "good guy" in this particular story. How would you answer an according question?

Because she was never the good guy, everyone hated her except for Jeffries. So only good guys win then?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Number #1 is accurate, due to she which I forgot to mention before was traveling in Llan's dimensions for a day with no food and water fighting between dimensions and got teleported into this reality where her and Alpha Flight fought the Avengers, she took on She-Hulk and won and then Rogue dropped her hundreds of stories in the air. Then finally Spider-Man appeared, she was far....FAR from being 100%

That's fine, I'm not saying Diamond Lil even wins, just the fact that this scene is believable. Spider-Man isn't that durable. Diamond Lil and Spider-Man have similar abilities, but Lil has the durability while Spider-Man has more speed.Do i get this right, this is a believable feat of hers because:
DL is as fast as Spidey, Puck and even Aurora (no exaggeration feats), but is FAR from her peak in this fight and so describes him as moving so fast she can barely see him. Despite the fact that she is FAR from her peak she manages to grab him. Yet you admit Spidey is generally faster.
???????????????????????
If you really believe she is up there with the Marvel icons of reflexes and agility i will certainly not be able to convince you of something else, especially since i don't know as much about DL as you do (i only have 4 or 5 comics with her).
But then why do you also say that Peter is faster later in your post?
Even when you mean she is just a bit slower than him, how is it in any way believable, when a slightly slower character who is FAR from 100% and describes the other as moving so fast, she can hardly see him and who easily dodges her attacks, suddenly grabs the faster character who is at 100% and also has the advantage of a spidersense (however "iffy" it may be, it's certainly worth something)?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Except she has caught faster people before, so no something does not add up. It's not overall speed, but the sheer movement and the pattern that might have screwed her up.As i said earlier, i believe you that she has caught faster people before. But super reflexes and speed are not part of her official power set (as far as i know), so did it ever occur to you, that these are exaggeration feats to make a fight or a story more interesting?
Many heroes/villains have abilities that are so extreme compared to their regular opponents abilities, that most fights written to their real power would be over before they even begin. Spiderman's quickness, Quicksilvers speed, telekinesis used against nonfliers, teleportation, telepathy in general are just some examples. So, authors actually have to use plot devices, exaggeration of the opponents abilities and limitation of those extreme powers to have something to write about in the comics very often.
I mean hundreds of people with just normal or athlete reflexes have caught Spidey, and even Quicksilver to make a fight at all possible in the first place, does that automatically mean all of them are as fast as the two and does this make it in any way believable or usefull as backup for these people in this forum?
Why is a more durable than normal Spidey surviving a hit from Rhino inadmissible (which i subscribe, btw), but a faster than normal and even weakened DL grabbing a fit Spiderman is a clear proof for her reflexes?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well considering the most comics I have of one series being 250+ issues is none other than Spider-Man I think I know what I'm talking about. He is more durable than a normal human, but not durable enough to survive a head crushing attack. Hell, even recently he did get his arm broke by Jigsaw

That would be wrong, since many characters who are stronger than some still lose due to skill or just overall luck. Which can be linked to Diamond Lil, since she wasn't trying to kill him just to make him stop. Like even Spider-Man has gave Namor a run for his money, he is Marvel's poster-boy they have him go against people he should't win against but he does.

Multiple story falls? No way is he that durable, the fall would he be able to survive to high of a fall he really isn't that durable. If he actually could do that, that would make him have metahuman durability and basically being bulletproof. His durability is decent, but not decent enough to fully survive a head crushing blow. Would this happen again if they fought? *shrugs* up to others to decide. Taking hits from someone your strength is different than getting your own strength being tossed straight into a brick wall.I have at least as many issues of Spiderman at home, so i tend to think that i know what i'm talking about too.

So it's luck and/or exaggeration? Well, that's what i'm talking about above. It happens to do a story - fine. Does that make a feat more believable or useful for this forum?

Even some normal humans have survived a multiple story fall occasionally (though mostly not in good shape ) and when a superhuman whose physiology can withstand the pressure force of ten tons and more projected on the surface of about two hand palms (when he carries this weight) does the same it's impossible?
Ever calculated the pressure force of a 80kg body falling from 20m height and compared it to the pressure force of ten tons just lying on a body? I suggest you do!
If even real world science is on Spideys side in this particular case...

Jigsaw breaking Spideys arm without mechanical help is simply not possible, so it's exaggeration like in so many other cases of people without superpowers hurting those with. The proportional strength and resulting minimum durability difference between a normal athlete human and a ten-tonner is bigger than that between the athlete and 3 year old boy. Is the boy in any way able to break the athletes arm just with his strength?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Because she was never the good guy, everyone hated her except for Jeffries. So only good guys win then? No, but mostly, especially when bad and good guy are roughly in the same league! Do you think DL would have won the way she did when she would have been the bad chick and Spidey the good guy, even if she should indeed be in his reflex league (a proclamation i still doubt, but would admittedly truly even the odds of this fight)?