Cruel and Very Unusual Punishment: Torture in the 'War on Terror'
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Ya Krunk'd Floo
Here are some of the more well-known instances of prisoner abuse committed by the US government as a means to gaining information on the 'War on Terror'.
Iraqi 'Prisoners of War' and Guantanamo Bay detainees have been:
- stripped and piled naked in a pyramid.
- cloaked, hooded and electrocuted.
- smeared with the menstrual blood of prostitues.
- chained and leashed like a dog.
Sourced from here
Then, there are the less spectacular ones, such as denying them their basic human rights as detailed by the UN. Detailed here
Those are all appalling offenses, but then things start to get a little weird...
Adam Piore was an embedded journalist in Iraq who came across a situation in al-Qa'im of Iraqi combatants being bound, hooded and gagged, placed in a shipping containers and then subjected to a song by Barney the Purple Dinosaur continuously for periods extending to 24hours. During this time, they were simultaneously subjected to bright flashing lights. When told about this situation, Sid Heal of the LA Sheriff's Department, and someone who has dedicated his life to the research of non-leathal technologies, remarked: "It could be the Bucha Effect". Explained here.
Another example of the disregard of the detainees' human rights can be viewed in the use of prostitues. According to former detainee, Jamal al-Harith, prostitues were flown in from the states to provoke detainees who found their very nature an assault to their beliefs. The prostitues would fondle the men's genitals, rub their breasts in their faces, and strip off infront of the men. The detainees would then return to their holding cells - which offered no defence against the elements - where they would not speak for days and cry to themselves. Details via Amnesty International
Another interesting detail: George W. Bush's administration had, by January 2004, channelled approximately $30 billion into the 'Black Budget'. This is a budget that funds 'Black Ops' - highly sensitive and deeply shady projects such as assassination squads, but also funds investigations into highly bizarre schemes such as funding PsyOps to research into remote-viewing.Details here regarding the Black Budget. Check out 'The Men Who Stare At Goats' by Jon Ronson for the remote-viewing stuff.
One of the most bizarre examples of a Black Budget-funded operation would be the research led by General Stubblebine and Guy Savelli into focusing the mind's ability to stare a goat to death. I'm not joking. Start here...
Anyway, I'm getting bored of typing all this out, so if you're interested in finding out more, do your own research and post it here.
Also, what do people think about torture as a means of gaining information? Is it acceptable? If so, why? How do you determine when it can and can't be used? If torture is acceptable, then why is it done covertly? Etc...
One last thing...
It could be easy for certain people to dismiss all these instances because of the absurdity of some of them, but what should bring you back to Earth is that this is state-sponsored torture by a nation that professes to take the moral high-ground. Think about it.
finti
in a war its acceptable to gain info, but not as a means of passing time
BackFire
The US should never stoop to torture as a means to get information, by doing so we are lowering ourselves to the level of the very people we are battling in this war, who use similar (but way worse, to be honest) tactics of getting what they want. This stuff simply shouldn't be going on.
However, I think some of these tortures are being dramatized a bit. They're bad and all, but some of them sound no worse then the common hazing done by fraternities all over the country. And the prostitution one...man, if that's torture, sign me up.
But again, America committing these acts is truly pathetic, especially when we, as you said, claim to take the moral high-ground.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by BackFire
The US should never stoop to torture as a means to get information, by doing so we are lowering ourselves to the level of the very people we are battling in this war, who use similar (but way worse, to be honest) tactics of getting what they want. This stuff simply shouldn't be going on.
I agree. The hypocrisy of crying freedom at the same time as practising one of the ultimate restrictions of it stinks like shit.
Originally posted by BackFire
However, I think some of these tortures are being dramatized a bit. They're bad and all, but some of them sound no worse then the common hazing done by fraternities all over the country. And the prostitution one...man, if that's torture, sign me up.
Think of them in the context of the situation. People have been taken away from their families, home, places of familiarity, blind-folded, transported without any idea of where they are going, then confronted with things they find abhorrent and totally alien. It's the ultimate shock-treatment. Pain isn't merely felt physically, but emotionally and mentally.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by finti
in a war its acceptable to gain info, but not as a means of passing time
If you don't know the information, how do you decide that someone else knows it?
BackFire
No, I know. Like I said, they are bad, no doubt. Could be a lot worse though.
finti
an enemy to you will always have some info of their own side, numbers, postions and so on
im talking about soldiers not civilians
Ya Krunk'd Floo
There are so many instances of Guantanamo Bay detainees being taken there on circumstantial evidence at best. The guy I mentioned in my initial post was taken there because he was a tourist in Pakistan, too close to the Afghanistan border. Another person was taken there because he was mistakenly believed to be the owner of a cell-phone with a suspected terrorist's phone number. The media is littered with examples like these. Remember, these are only some of the examples of erroneous detainment. The actual number is undoubtedly much larger.
If these innocent people are being tortured, then how can you condone it?
Makedde
The US condemns the torture that the Iraqis endured under Saddam, then stoops to his level and tortures prisoners, many of which are innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Deano
conditioning us to accept torture. desensitizing us. you see it lots on tv programmes nowadays.
those people in the army are sickos who do that shit to the prisoners..but its there job isnt it, a job there happy to do..you know..psyhopathic stuff.
they dont really use the word torture now..its 'extreme interogation'
the war on terror is fukin phoney...
someone wake me up
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by finti
im talking about soldiers not civilians
The majority of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay are not 'soldiers'.
Ushgarak
I hate to say it, but they are still going to have the moral high ground even WITH the torture.
That's the problem when you fight an evil enemy; suddenly a lot of things you do will be of academic interest only. Much of what the Allies did in WWII was pretty horrific but the needs justified all.
The biggest problem in Guantanamo now? Never mind any tortures or direct Human Rights abuses going on. It's because not enough of them are being charged. That's the only reason it is ever going to get much heat- people are running out of patience with them being held without seeing a court.
finti
and Im not talking about them either, Im talking about war in general where soldiers of opposing forces are captured.
What goes on at Guantanamo bay is by no means acceptable, still all of the detainees there aint innocent
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I hate to say it, but they are still going to have the moral high ground even WITH the torture.
That's the problem when you fight an evil enemy; suddenly a lot of things you do will be of academic interest only. Much of what the Allies did in WWII was pretty horrific but the needs justified all.
The problem with this argument is that it presupposes a majority support for the US. This isn't the case with the world's public, and the support of other governments is also waning.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The biggest problem in Guantanamo now? Never mind any tortures or direct Human Rights abuses going on. It's because not enough of them are being charged. That's the only reason it is ever going to get much heat- people are running out of patience with them being held without seeing a court.
That would probably be more appropriate here.
That's nice, but we're talking about Guantanamo Bay and the 'War on Terror' in this thread. Care to join us?
No-one has said that all of the detainees are innocent. Is it still OK to torture the detainees just in case they might be guilty of something? In which case, why have they still not been charged after 3 years?
finti
the war on terror is more than just Guantanamo Bay, care to expand
that is a question you have to raise to the US authorities
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by finti
the war on terror is more than just Guantanamo Bay, care to expand
Try reading my initial post again.
Originally posted by finti
that is a question you have to raise to the US authorities
Not really. This discussion is based here.
finti
no one here can answer it
PVS
when you have a situation where people are not being charged, its inevitable that many will in fact be innocent. its also probable that the administration knows this, or why else go through such scrutiny? the Alogic seems to be that if you kidnap 10 men and torture them for 4 years, and 1 is an al qaeda member (or claims to be just to stop the routine tourture), then its all worth it. i wonder if so many would support this method if the detainees were white christian terror suspects?
finti
I think that really depends of what these so called white christian terrorist susoects had been responsible for
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by finti
no one here can answer it
I think you're having difficulty comprehending the terms of a discussion.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by finti
I think that really depends of what these so called white christian terrorist susoects had been responsible for
If we take a literal interpretation of the term 'terrorist', then I guess you could equate it to a government that inspires fear in the people it represents as it wages war - psychological and physical - with countries that hold idelogies different from it's own. The effects of which involve the incarceration of foreign nationals without evidence for a prosecution, and the erosion of civil liberties of the inhabitants of the home country.
finti
just being honest, so I couldnt care less if that doesnt fit into your comprehension about terms of a discussion
Ushgarak
"The problem with this argument is that it presupposes a majority support for the US. This isn't the case with the world's public, and the support of other governments is also waning. "
Regardless, I stand by what I say. People may dislike the US, but their efforts will still be supported by the democratic process in most countries on the idea that what they are doing is better than nothing happening at all.
People don't want to see it like that, but that is pretty much the way it is.
My point about the legal situation I think actually did belong here, because that is the only place the US is seriously going to be taken to task on, you see. All the abuses etc. are just going to sail past and be, as I say, of academic interest only. When I said the legal situation was the biggest problem, I meant that literally- not that is is the greatest wrong, but quite simply it is the biggest problem, for the US.
History will look back in future and ask if it was worth it, and I will lay odds the consensus will be yes.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Regardless, I stand by what I say. People may dislike the US, but their efforts will still be supported by the democratic process in most countries on the idea that what they are doing is better than nothing happening at all.
That's a very strange thing to state. So, is the attack on the WTC by Islamic fundamentalists better than them doing nothing at all? Hitler persecuting the Jews was better than him doing nothing at all? Don't say the comparison is invalid, because that would mean you are only looking at the current situation from a US-coalition view-point, which would negate your debate by it being unbalanced.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
My point about the legal situation I think actually did belong here, because that is the only place the US is seriously going to be taken to task on, you see. All the abuses etc. are just going to sail past and be, as I say, of academic interest only. When I said the legal situation was the biggest problem, I meant that literally- not that is is the greatest wrong, but quite simply it is the biggest problem, for the US.
This thread happens to be about the validity of torture as a means to an end, rather than the greater repercussions of the US' actions.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
History will look back in future and ask if it was worth it, and I will lay odds the consensus will be yes.
Isn't it providential you weren't born in the Middle East?
Ushgarak
Your comparisons don't make any logical sense, and seem to have been put in for emotional effect alone, which is a cheap trick.
Sorry, but the fact is that the majority of the democratic process of the world will continue to support the US. That has bugger all comparison with the WTC attacks and Hitler'a actions.
And me pointing out that the torture issue is a smaller one than the legal one was still a relevant point to make, despite your opinion.
And yes, it is providential I wasn't born in the Middle East, and I still stand by what I said, and I still maintain that the reasonable consensus of history is going to agree.
I know you don't want that, but I am certain that is how it is.
soleran30
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Here are some of the more well-known instances of prisoner abuse committed by the US government as a means to gaining information on the 'War on Terror'.
Iraqi 'Prisoners of War' and Guantanamo Bay detainees have been:
- stripped and piled naked in a pyramid.
- cloaked, hooded and electrocuted.
- smeared with the menstrual blood of prostitues.
- chained and leashed like a dog.
Sourced from here
Then, there are the less spectacular ones, such as denying them their basic human rights as detailed by the UN. Detailed here
Those are all appalling offenses, but then things start to get a little weird...
Adam Piore was an embedded journalist in Iraq who came across a situation in al-Qa'im of Iraqi combatants being bound, hooded and gagged, placed in a shipping containers and then subjected to a song by Barney the Purple Dinosaur continuously for periods extending to 24hours. During this time, they were simultaneously subjected to bright flashing lights. When told about this situation, Sid Heal of the LA Sheriff's Department, and someone who has dedicated his life to the research of non-leathal technologies, remarked: "It could be the Bucha Effect". Explained here.
Another example of the disregard of the detainees' human rights can be viewed in the use of prostitues. According to former detainee, Jamal al-Harith, prostitues were flown in from the states to provoke detainees who found their very nature an assault to their beliefs. The prostitues would fondle the men's genitals, rub their breasts in their faces, and strip off infront of the men. The detainees would then return to their holding cells - which offered no defence against the elements - where they would not speak for days and cry to themselves. Details via Amnesty International
Another interesting detail: George W. Bush's administration had, by January 2004, channelled approximately $30 billion into the 'Black Budget'. This is a budget that funds 'Black Ops' - highly sensitive and deeply shady projects such as assassination squads, but also funds investigations into highly bizarre schemes such as funding PsyOps to research into remote-viewing.Details here regarding the Black Budget. Check out 'The Men Who Stare At Goats' by Jon Ronson for the remote-viewing stuff.
One of the most bizarre examples of a Black Budget-funded operation would be the research led by General Stubblebine and Guy Savelli into focusing the mind's ability to stare a goat to death. I'm not joking. Start here...
Anyway, I'm getting bored of typing all this out, so if you're interested in finding out more, do your own research and post it here.
Also, what do people think about torture as a means of gaining information? Is it acceptable? If so, why? How do you determine when it can and can't be used? If torture is acceptable, then why is it done covertly? Etc...
One last thing...
It could be easy for certain people to dismiss all these instances because of the absurdity of some of them, but what should bring you back to Earth is that this is state-sponsored torture by a nation that professes to take the moral high-ground. Think about it.
Oh well
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Your comparisons don't make any logical sense, and seem to have been put in for emotional effect alone, which is a cheap trick.
There's that unbalanced view-point I was talking about. Of course, the comparisons appear extravagant if you are considering them from a point of view that condones current US imperialism.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, but the fact is that the majority of the democratic process of the world will continue to support the US.
Not so much due to 'democratic process' as economic necessity.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And me pointing out that the torture issue is a smaller one than the legal one was still a relevant point to make, despite your opinion.
Actually, it wasn't. Do I need to state the topic again?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And yes, it is providential I wasn't born in the Middle East, and I still stand by what I said, and I still maintain that the reasonable consensus of history is going to agree.
I know you don't want that, but I am certain that is how it is.
Au contraire, mon petit fleur, I would be delighted if it worked out like that. However, I think you are incredibly naive to think it will.
soleran30
2 wrongs never make a right and now after several articles I believe we can all see the travesties at hand. Now what kind of travesties can you show me from the other side?
Ushgarak
"Not so much due to 'democratic process' as economic necessity."
Nah. It might be comforting to think it's all down to the money, but actually it's down to most western Government being glad that someone else is doing it for them, so that they don't have to be held morally accountable.
"Actually, it wasn't. Do I need to state the topic again?"
No, because that would only be your opinion. I think my point was relevant, and I don't care if you do not, so you will just have to live with that.
"I would be delighted if it worked out like that. However, I think you are incredibly naive to think it will."
And again, nah- I think it is naive to think that it won't. I think, actually, lots and lots of very naive people cling to the hope that history will cast down the US for this period in time. I think they are going to be very disappointed.
Fishy
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nah. It might be comforting to think it's all down to the money, but actually it's down to most western Government being glad that someone else is doing it for them, so that they don't have to be held morally accountable.
I don't see how, the leaders of democratic powers have no reason to start a war with Iraq or hate the lack of freedom there it doesn't really affect them and isn't really important. Most of them feared what Iraq could mean to the rest of the world. Instead of wanting it to change. If they wanted it to change they would have done something to change it after the first Gulf War, instead of leaving it alone afterall. Most world leaders would have rather stayed away then have the US invade.
And if the war was the only thing that decided the political movement of the world then I am pretty sure the US would have had very few allies this day and age. But there is a lot more to world politics then just this one war, it isn't the most important thing and therefor it doesn't decide who likes or who doesn't like the US. Country's will keep talking to them because the US has power and money if that drops then we will see how popular this war really is with western country's, if the war is still going on that is.
Got to agree with this...
Its way to early to say, we don't know how the war will end and what the result of all of this will be. Perhaps the world will be thankful for the process but hate the US for the way it is done. Perhaps history will say its the greatest thing since sliced bread, or perhaps it will say it was all a terrible mistake.
Storm
Imo, torture is not a licit means for extracting information.
If we can' t recognize and respect the dignity and rights of each human individual, then in the end we aren' t any better than those we fight against.
PVS
but...but we're M'URICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JaehSkywalker
can i answer that poll 'possibly'??
Wesker
Originally posted by Storm
Imo, torture is not a licit means for extracting information.
If we can' t recognize and respect the dignity and rights of each human individual, then in the end we aren' t any better than those we fight against.
I agree with this. The idea of torture is barbaric, regardless of the ends.
Hack Benjamin
Apparently, those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house. (Or watched a serious action movie.)
Bashing someone's toes with a hammer, that's toture.
Slaughtering someone's family or atleast holding them hostage and threatning to (and being honost about doing it) that's toture.
Slicing off limbs (preffebly more sensitive ones) with a machete, that's toture.
The things expressed in your topic sound like something I'd see on a bad porn movie, it's hardly on the same level of "toture" as REAL toture. It's just more of a mental thing because well, terrorists are mental cases lol..
No, I don't see any reason why toture should be banned or frowned upon or anything, we didn't become a nation by being Mr. Niceguy, if that had been the case we'd still be English and this land would (maybe) still belong to the Indians..
This is the real-world, not some comic book, and in the real world, you have to do hanus things to extract information from your enemy for the greater good, less you're willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved one's lives, and everybody else within ten thousand feet's life over your silly little code of honour. And who gave you THAT right? What makes you have the opinion of God that you can dictate what is exseptable and what is not when so many lives are at stake?
If you want to be a pacifist, you go right ahead, but don't you ever tell our goverment or how us citizens are somehow less then just because we care enough to get our hands dirty, even Superman and Vash the stampede, who had cool powers inorder to implement thier beliefs, knew not every man had that option, and kept thier mouth shut. Instead of being upset that your country does totutre (which again, this is LENIANT toture..) you should be grateful that your country is willing to do anything to protect itself. It has self-love. The same can't be said about France or pretty much every other country on the Eurepeon continent. They'd sell-out to Nazis if they made a comeback.. They really don't care about thier citizens, albeit, neither does the American goverment in some respects. (IE: When we're talking money they'll screw you over everytime) but the American goverment is as strong as an ox, and twice as stubborn, if anyone's going to destroy America, it's going to be America. That's the way our goverment thinks, and that may be one of the few things that helps me sleep at night. My enemy's enemy if you will..
Wesker
I've never been one to believe in the validity of consequentialism. Likewise, morally both an intent AND the action following must be morally good or the entire act is questionable, period. Torture is never morally good, regardless of the ends achieved. If you argue otherwise, than it doesn't matter what we do so long as it comes out good.
Hack Benjamin
Agreed, there are differant levels of good, intent, action, and result. And if it's not all three then it's questionable of how "good" it is, and perhaps even becomes so not good it becomes evil.
However, evil holds a special place in our universe, no-one appreciates it, nobody understands it, nothing wants to even be in it's presence, but without evil, good wouldn't know what to do with itself, something has to be worse then inorder to make a valid comparison.. Evil is the masculine, the raging yang to good's calming ying, the onimpetant sun to the rotating moon, when you begin to look at the universe not with your eyes but with your thoughts, you'll see evil as just a varation of good, the only true evil is stagnation, which though I know is not your intention, would be your result or action if you don't do something quickly. Life won't wait for you, enemy states are plotting our demise as we speak, criminals are planning thier next big gig which may or may not involve you, and bad stuff is going to happen, what will you do about it?
Or rather, what will you do about it given the limited amount of time you have to work with? Time, it's almost as unreliabale as money..
Eis
Yes I believe if the information the government needs is absolutley curcial. Torture is acceptable.
Fishy
Originally posted by Eis
Yes I believe if the information the government needs is absolutley curcial. Torture is acceptable.
Possible, but doesn't the use of torture in fact create more enemy's and doesn't it make the government everythings its trying to fight out there? Do you think those goverments in the middle east have the same rights and the same need to do this? Or does this allowing torture only count for the US?
debbiejo
Originally posted by PVS
but...but we're M'URICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes yes we are.........We are the special people.....
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Firstly, why do you insist on quoting posts in such an indefinite way? Do you think it marks you as 'special'?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nah. It might be comforting to think it's all down to the money, but actually it's down to most western Government being glad that someone else is doing it for them, so that they don't have to be held morally accountable.
I find your absolutism fascinating, despite it being innately incorrect. The gradual reduction in the military support by previously supportive coalition forces shows that some governments are able to recognise errors and adapt to them as a result of accountability. The US has a 'clarity of vision' problem regarding this. It would appear that you also suffer from this affliction, although your malady is supplemented by naivety.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, because that would only be your opinion. I think my point was relevant, and I don't care if you do not, so you will just have to live with that.
If we were having a discussion on climate change, and I started going on about crime being a greater problem to be solved, it wouldn't really add anything to the discussion at hand, would it? (No, it wouldn't).
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And again, nah- I think it is naive to think that it won't. I think, actually, lots and lots of very naive people cling to the hope that history will cast down the US for this period in time. I think they are going to be very disappointed.
All these 'nahs' make me think you're attempting to impersonate an ambulance; the emergency within being your limited views. I'm attempting to give you some First Aid, but the situation is looking critical.
A nation that has caused, escalated, failed to stop, and exploited terrorism does no sound like one that will be feted in the future.
debbiejo
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Firstly, why do you insist on quoting posts in such an indefinite way? Do you think it marks you as 'special'?
Yeah.........so.......
Did someone forget their happy pill today?
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Apparently, those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house. (Or watched a serious action movie.)
The people who only accept the legitimacy of torture as displayed in a movie are...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
The things expressed in your topic sound like something I'd see on a bad porn movie, it's hardly on the same level of "toture" as REAL toture. It's just more of a mental thing because well, terrorists are mental cases lol..
Did you read that qualifier at the end of my initial post? Excruciating physical and mental pain would appear to sit perfectly with the definition of torture. The evidence for this can be found in one of those links that I submitted. You're a big boy, so I'll let you find out which one...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
No, I don't see any reason why toture should be banned or frowned upon or anything, we didn't become a nation by being Mr. Niceguy, if that had been the case we'd still be English and this land would (maybe) still belong to the Indians..
Ahh...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
This is the real-world, not some comic book, and in the real world, you have to do hanus things to extract information from your enemy for the greater good, less you're willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved one's lives, and everybody else within ten thousand feet's life over your silly little code of honour. And who gave you THAT right? What makes you have the opinion of God that you can dictate what is exseptable and what is not when so many lives are at stake?
The only problem with the validity of a line of reasoning that uses 'for the greater good' is that you would need to be in a majority who believe it is right. This isn't the case. It's also the same reasoning used by terrorist groups.
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
If you want to be a pacifist, you go right ahead, but don't you ever tell our goverment or how us citizens are somehow less then just because we care enough to get our hands dirty, even Superman and Vash the stampede, who had cool powers inorder to implement thier beliefs, knew not every man had that option, and kept thier mouth shut. Instead of being upset that your country does totutre (which again, this is LENIANT toture..) you should be grateful that your country is willing to do anything to protect itself. It has self-love. The same can't be said about France or pretty much every other country on the Eurepeon continent. They'd sell-out to Nazis if they made a comeback.. They really don't care about thier citizens, albeit, neither does the American goverment in some respects. (IE: When we're talking money they'll screw you over everytime) but the American goverment is as strong as an ox, and twice as stubborn, if anyone's going to destroy America, it's going to be America. That's the way our goverment thinks, and that may be one of the few things that helps me sleep at night. My enemy's enemy if you will..
Wow. Words. Cannot. Express. The. Utter...
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yeah.........so.......
Did someone forget their happy pill today?
debbie dear, I wasn't referring to you.
debbiejo
Oh, sorry.......I guess I should go and edit my other post about you in the next thread also then....................lol
soleran30
Krunk can you show us any sort of torture from the other side? I certainly cannot justify the USA piece but I am curious as to the treatment of US citizens/trooops as well.
Darth Jello
torture is a stupid and unreliable way to get information and is a horrible inhuman crime against humanity.
Anyone who participated in, planned, or approved the use of torture should be rounded up and shot.
Darth Jello
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Apparently, those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house. (Or watched a serious action movie.)
Bashing someone's toes with a hammer, that's toture.
Slaughtering someone's family or atleast holding them hostage and threatning to (and being honost about doing it) that's toture.
Slicing off limbs (preffebly more sensitive ones) with a machete, that's toture.
The things expressed in your topic sound like something I'd see on a bad porn movie, it's hardly on the same level of "toture" as REAL toture. It's just more of a mental thing because well, terrorists are mental cases lol..
No, I don't see any reason why toture should be banned or frowned upon or anything, we didn't become a nation by being Mr. Niceguy, if that had been the case we'd still be English and this land would (maybe) still belong to the Indians..
This is the real-world, not some comic book, and in the real world, you have to do hanus things to extract information from your enemy for the greater good, less you're willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved one's lives, and everybody else within ten thousand feet's life over your silly little code of honour. And who gave you THAT right? What makes you have the opinion of God that you can dictate what is exseptable and what is not when so many lives are at stake?
If you want to be a pacifist, you go right ahead, but don't you ever tell our goverment or how us citizens are somehow less then just because we care enough to get our hands dirty, even Superman and Vash the stampede, who had cool powers inorder to implement thier beliefs, knew not every man had that option, and kept thier mouth shut. Instead of being upset that your country does totutre (which again, this is LENIANT toture..) you should be grateful that your country is willing to do anything to protect itself. It has self-love. The same can't be said about France or pretty much every other country on the Eurepeon continent. They'd sell-out to Nazis if they made a comeback.. They really don't care about thier citizens, albeit, neither does the American goverment in some respects. (IE: When we're talking money they'll screw you over everytime) but the American goverment is as strong as an ox, and twice as stubborn, if anyone's going to destroy America, it's going to be America. That's the way our goverment thinks, and that may be one of the few things that helps me sleep at night. My enemy's enemy if you will..
Yeah, lenient torture. That's why 89 people have died due to mistreatment.
Maybe if someone was cracking your ribs with a truncheon while sodomizing you with a rusty pole you wouldn't think it was so lenient
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by soleran30
Krunk can you show us any sort of torture from the other side? I certainly cannot justify the USA piece but I am curious as to the treatment of US citizens/trooops as well.
My name's Ya Krunk'd Floo, not Google.com. If you have something to say, say it, rather than insinuate.
However, I will state highlight this: (Quoted from the Geneva Convention)
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(a), (b), (c), and (d) would therefore be applicable to both the US and the terrorist networks operating in Iraq. State-sponsored terrorists dancing with ideological ones; what lovely bed-fellows they must be.
Hack Benjamin
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Yeah, lenient torture. That's why 89 people have died due to mistreatment.
Maybe if someone was cracking your ribs with a truncheon while sodomizing you with a rusty pole you wouldn't think it was so lenient
If I were, i'd be in no position to cry about it, I would have only one hope in my mind, okay two.
#1: "Hope I get out of this mess alive".
#2: "Hope my enemies are expriencing just as much pain as I am".
Darth Jello
i'm just guessing that since that is your defention of "lenient torture" (whatever that oxymoron is supposed to mean in the first place) i'm wondering what actual torture is. Is it vivisection? or is it only torture if the person dies in some cruel and unusual way.
Fun facts- The worlds largest producer and exporter of torture implements is Smith and Wesson.
Torture has been employed for years in the US penal system (and i don't mean systematic prison rape and inmate death matches). Many Texas prisons along with Pelican Bay in California have recently been found to be killing inmates with boiling water torture.
soleran30
Originally posted by Darth Jello
torture is a stupid and unreliable way to get information and is a horrible inhuman crime against humanity.
Anyone who participated in, planned, or approved the use of torture should be rounded up and shot.
Darth I believe you but Krunk hasn't answered me can you?
Ya Krunk'd Floo
I quite categorically have answered you.
Darth Jello
If by other side you mean the Iraqi army, than in this particular conflict there was no torture or mistreatment of troops. Even Jessica Lynch said that most of the stuff written and reported about her was military propoganda and that she's considering suing the Pentagon and the defense department. In terms of the different factions in the Iraqi civil war, yeah, there's been plenty of torture and cruel murder.
Hack Benjamin
Many Texas prisons along with Pelican Bay in California have recently been found to be killing inmates with boiling water torture.
And I should care why? Given half the chance those guys would do it to me, and without good reason, atleast our goverment is doing the wrong thing for the RIGHT reasons..
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Hack-Cough-Spit, all of your posts in this thread have been irrational and ignorant.
What on Earth are the 'right' reasons for a government to be torturing people, in this case, to death? Please share your wisdom and insight...
Hack Benjamin
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Hack-Cough-Spit, all of your posts in this thread have been irrational and ignorant.
That's an awfuly irrational and ignorant statement to make yourself, ever heard the expression "don't knock it till you've tried it"?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, those people in prison deserve whatever punishment those incharge find fitting, they raped little girls, killed dozens of people for no other reason then some sick peverted sense of pleasure, robbed people to the point of having to live off food-stamps, selling drugs that broke homes and ruined lives, they're a bane unto exsistance, so no, I don't see how I should give a fig about what happens or doesn't happen to them..
G a n n o n
Torture is necessary to gain information in war.
Darth Jello
TORTURE HAS BEEN CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN AS A HORRIBLEY UNRELIABLE WAY TO GET INFORMATION. YOU WILL GET WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, NOT ACCURATE INFO. IF YOU'RE FINE WITH TORTURE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING IN A FREE SOCIETY
AND IF YOU THINK TORTURE IS FINE JUST AS A PUNISHMENT OR FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT, YOU'RE SIMPLY ****ED UP IN THE HEAD AND SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM SOCIETY
Wesker
I wouldn't be that extreme, but I do agree that torture is an unreliable method of extracting information. Certainly nothing done at Al-Gruhib prison saved lives and was neccessary. It's just another case of humans lording and abusing other humans when in a position of power. Like that old prison simulation run by the psychologists... Some of you who had psychology in college would know of it.
Anyways, ethically speaking, when you sanction torture as a means to an end, you work through consequentialism. By this same code of ethics, I could rape your mother and stab your father if it benefitted whatever it was I was trying to benefit. That's not a rational ethical code to uphold, even if it sounds appealing in -certain- moral dillemas. Torturing people you believe are bad makes you just as bad.
Hack Benjamin
Torturing people you believe are bad makes you just as bad.
Your point is?
That's what you children don't understand, this isn't about being the bigger man, it's about survival, and protecting the ones you love.. (and maybe some you don't.)
Pride is a luxory no-one can afford..
BackFire
Torturing criminals doesn't enhance your chances for survival or the safety of your loved ones.
Hack Benjamin
Menh, I have no proof for or against that, so fine, I'll just say it gives me some sense of comfort to know my enemies are suffering unimmagianable pain.
And there's nothing you can say against that because what, you're going to tell me how I feel about the situation?
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
That's an awfuly irrational and ignorant statement to make yourself, ever heard the expression "don't knock it till you've tried it"?
How so? My statement is based on the evidence displayed in your posts, what's yours based on? Also, the idiom you use doesn't make any sense in the context of your post.
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, those people in prison deserve whatever punishment those incharge find fitting, they raped little girls, killed dozens of people for no other reason then some sick peverted sense of pleasure, robbed people to the point of having to live off food-stamps, selling drugs that broke homes and ruined lives, they're a bane unto exsistance, so no, I don't see how I should give a fig about what happens or doesn't happen to them..
'An eye for an eye' just creates a lot of blind people, which happens to be the problem in the first place.
Wesker
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Your point is?
My point is the end doesn't justify the means, unless you proscribe to a very jaded and immoral code of ethics. Your idea of "Do what you gotta do" doesn't work in a world where people are bound by society rules and expectations. I can't kill people on the road because they are potential competition for food, or make my house a fortress complete with automatic turrets because potential rapists are in my neighborhood. The "do what you must" mentality exists in a situation where life is primal and primitive. When you're on a desert island and there's one jug of water left and two people. Not in a world where the "enemy" can be bombed into submission or simply just isolated and occupied by us. We're not in serious danger here, except in danger of losing our integrity in the name of "defense". That's the entire issue here.
First off, stow the insults. It's actually more childish to call anonymous people online "children" for having different beliefs than it is mature.
Secondly, this isn't about survival. The fate of the United States does not hinge on objecitifying and dehumanizing foreign prisoners from far far away. If anything, brutalizing prisoners enhances danger because we look like immoral and imperialistic bastards. Using the idea of "protecting the ones you love" is a flimsy ass excuse for wanton torture, man. Torture goes against the values that love supports, like compassion, understanding, and forgiveness. Those are core values of a society with integrity. Torture isn't.
Funny, I could say that about consequentialism.
BackFire
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Menh, I have no proof for or against that, so fine, I'll just say it gives me some sense of comfort to know my enemies are suffering unimmagianable pain.
And there's nothing you can say against that because what, you're going to tell me how I feel about the situation?
No, I can't tell you how you feel about the situation. However, I can tell you that by supporting such cruel and dispicable acts you can no longer condemn the criminals themselves for doing similar acts without being a blatant hypocrite. You are also supporting illegal acts, seeing as these things aren't legal in America, or any other decent country. And, I can also tell you that with this type of thought process you seem to have, you'd fit right in with the very people who you label as enemies.
Hack Benjamin
It's very common to become the thing you hate, but then, isn't that the entire point?
Evil is nesscarey, the only way you can stop evil is with evil, you just have to have enough motivation on the right-side to make yourself the "lesser evil".
All that peace and love crap doesn't work, like earlier "an eye for an eye makes the world go blind" yeah, Gandhi said that, and look how much he accomplished, JACK SQUAT. Commies and terrorists still dominate, tibetian monks are another example, they refuse to fight, so what do they do? They run like scared little girls, while the soldiers of China hunt down thier families and put a couple rounds through thier head, and if they find the monks, do more of the same.
That's where peace gets you, you can call that better all you want too, but this isn't some fictional book, it's real life, and in real life, it's not about the message, it's about the results, live to write another page, or die in the first half, that's our only choice in this life.
BackFire
Plenty of people get to finish their entire book without committing torture and cruelty.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
It's very common to become the thing you hate, but then, isn't that the entire point?
What are you talking about? So, the point of torturing detainees in Guantanamo Bay is because the US want to become detainees in Guantanamo Bay? Are you sure you're not a bot?
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Evil is nesscarey, the only way you can stop evil is with evil, you just have to have enough motivation on the right-side to make yourself the "lesser evil".
This is absolutely ridiculous. If the only way to stop evil is through evil, then what is the point in the whole process? Terrorsits committing evil acts result in the US committing evil acts which in turn results in terrorists committing evil acts, ad infinitum...? That's a wonderfully well thought-out argument.
Hack Benjamin
That's a wonderfully well thought-out argument.
Thankyou for noticing.
I knew someone as smart as you couldn't perpetualy believe those niave monks who get raped and shot trying to defend the idea of peace was a good idea..
BackFire
Let's see.
"There's evil in the world, so we should become evil to fight said evil".
Works out well. When do you decide to fight against yourself?
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Thankyou for noticing.
I knew someone as smart as you couldn't perpetualy believe those niave monks who get raped and shot trying to defend the idea of peace was a good idea..
Oh, it was my pleasure. I have a very keen eye for spotting ignorant bullshit. Therefore, I must thank you for giving it so much practice recently.
Darth Jello
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
It's very common to become the thing you hate, but then, isn't that the entire point?
Evil is nesscarey, the only way you can stop evil is with evil, you just have to have enough motivation on the right-side to make yourself the "lesser evil".
All that peace and love crap doesn't work, like earlier "an eye for an eye makes the world go blind" yeah, Gandhi said that, and look how much he accomplished, JACK SQUAT. Commies and terrorists still dominate, tibetian monks are another example, they refuse to fight, so what do they do? They run like scared little girls, while the soldiers of China hunt down thier families and put a couple rounds through thier head, and if they find the monks, do more of the same.
That's where peace gets you, you can call that better all you want too, but this isn't some fictional book, it's real life, and in real life, it's not about the message, it's about the results, live to write another page, or die in the first half, that's our only choice in this life.
You read too many comic books
Wesker
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Oh, it was my pleasure. I have a very keen eye for spotting ignorant bullshit. Therefore, I must thank you for giving it so much practice recently.
Another classic quote. Stuffing this in my profile.
I've said all I need to say to Hack. If he wants to believe in some kind of social Darwinism, he needs to stay the hell out of politics.
Hack Benjamin
Originally posted by Darth Jello
You read too many comic books
I was about to say the same thing to you, comic book logic is you should always try to be the better man.
Ya Krunk, I don't mind you having a differant viewpoint then me, but could you lay off the insults? It's really starting to bug me, and just as i'm not above toturing, i'm not above hitting the report button, it'd be an ******* thing to do, but I think we've established how I feel the ends always justify the means..
Wesker
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
I was about to say the same thing to you, comic book logic is you should always try to be the better man.
Ya Krunk, I don't mind you having a differant viewpoint then me, but could you lay off the insults? It's really starting to bug me, and just as i'm not above toturing, i'm not above hitting the report button, it'd be an ******* thing to do, but I think we've established how I feel the ends always justify the means..
If being honest and debating with you is worthy of being reported, you must be a really sensitive little child behind that keyboard, Hack.
Don't let "the children" at KMC who have different opinions get you down or anything.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Ya Krunk, I don't mind you having a differant viewpoint then me, but could you lay off the insults? It's really starting to bug me, and just as i'm not above toturing, i'm not above hitting the report button, it'd be an ******* thing to do, but I think we've established how I feel the ends always justify the means..
I feel the same way regarding differing viewpoints. However, I find opinions offensive when they are mired in ignorance. If you could stop doing that, I'd feel better too. When you are in a discussion it is advisable that you are able to substantiate your view by developing a comprehensible argument. If you could do that, there would be no problem here.
Hack Benjamin
What do you mean? I havn't gotten nasty with you, I've given you my honoust feelings on the matter, that's it, I havn't called you a lier, or even tried to demoralize your views, I've simply given you a solid foundation on why I think the way I do.
In a way, it's quite the irony, I'm the one who believes in an eye for an eye, yet your the one trying to make me go blind..
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Well, your belief in torture as a means to an end, does denote you as being somewhat blind in terms of your inability to see the hypocrisy of such a view.
The very nature of a debate means that if I don't agree with your opinion, I'm going to argue against it. Your posts have lacked reason, so it has been them that I've criticized. It's ironic that you made light out of the examples of mental torture I have highlighted, yet you can't tolerate an attack on your beliefs.
Hack Benjamin
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Well, your belief in torture as a means to an end, does denote you as being somewhat blind in terms of your inability to see the hypocrisy of such a view.
But I don't care that it's hypocritical, I know it is, I embrace it.
No, it's not ironic, it's not a matter of if I can take it, it's a matter of I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to tolerate your mouth, just as I expect toture victims to fight back, resist, or refuse to speak, (which encourages more toture, but thems the breaks) I should be able to punch you in the face to get you to quit bashing me, but I can't, cause it's over the net.
Hell, I can't even just completely flame you and be a total dick, as that's "against the rules" (and by the way, i've lurked, and it's VERY bias and VERY unreliable these "rules"..) So in a way, you're worst then anything our goverment could do, because terrorists still have the option to retaliate, because it takes place in rl, where we have alot more at our disposal, where as here, I'm at the mercy of anyone who can lock an account, who clearly are more friendly towards you then I, which means, you get away with alot more then I could, and you take advantage. Some example, some all wonderful hero you turned out to be, go ahead and deny it, I don't care, anything you say or do will only further convince me i'm in the right.
I just wish it was all in real-life, then you'd know how to respect another individual, suddenly you'd remember what a real debate is, and not personal attacks.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
But I don't care that it's hypocritical, I know it is, I embrace it.
So, you're a hypocrite. I'm glad we've cleared that one up.
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
No, it's not ironic, it's not a matter of if I can take it, it's a matter of I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to tolerate your mouth, just as I expect toture victims to fight back, resist, or refuse to speak, (which encourages more toture, but thems the breaks) I should be able to punch you in the face to get you to quit bashing me, but I can't, cause it's over the net.
You're wrong, it is ironic. If you feel you 'shouldn't have to' tolerate a dissection of your opinion, then you shouldn't submit it on a public discussion forum. I find it highly amusing that someone who displays such waifer-think skin should be a staunch supporter of torture. It's hilarious. Your idle threats regarding punching me in the face are equally laughable. Grow up, dear boy. We're not in the school playground anymore...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Hell, I can't even just completely flame you and be a total dick, as that's "against the rules" (and by the way, i've lurked, and it's VERY bias and VERY unreliable these "rules"..) So in a way, you're worst then anything our goverment could do, because terrorists still have the option to retaliate, because it takes place in rl, where we have alot more at our disposal, where as here, I'm at the mercy of anyone who can lock an account, who clearly are more friendly towards you then I, which means, you get away with alot more then I could, and you take advantage. Some example, some all wonderful hero you turned out to be, go ahead and deny it, I don't care, anything you say or do will only further convince me i'm in the right.
I just wish it was all in real-life, then you'd know how to respect another individual, suddenly you'd remember what a real debate is, and not personal attacks.
All of your crying about "It's not fair...", etc. just substantiates my view of you even further. I've detailed my rejections of your posts, but all you've done is cry about it. Get yourself a tissue and live to fight another day, Bruiser...
Hack Benjamin
I'm done with this topic, obviously I'm not dealing with people but vultures, you may have "won" because you've managed to piss me off, but I think i've won in the sense I've proved you to be just as big a butthole as the American goverment you seem to dislike so much.
You should consider working for them you know how to be a completely heartless prick.
Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
I'm not dealing with people but vultures
May have won? Don't let people piss you off to the point of hipocrisy. Because, in all honesty, there are few people who are capable of doing such things. The point was likely hipocritical to begin with.
Hack Benjamin
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
May have won? Don't let people piss you off to the point of hipocrisy. Because, in all honesty, there are few people who are capable of doing such things. The point was likely hipocritical to begin with.
I agree, but what upsets me is I accept my hypocrisy, it's partof life.
But he is nothing but a bully, and sense I'm new, (and not exactly in the majority here on my opinion) i'm in no position to get snotty.. It's deffinitely a lose-lose, I have to be the bigger man and just concede.
And I hate being the bigger man.
Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
I have to be the bigger man and just concede.
No you don't. And I don't even agree with you.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
I'm done with this topic, obviously I'm not dealing with people but vultures, you may have "won" because you've managed to piss me off, but I think i've won in the sense I've proved you to be just as big a butthole as the American goverment you seem to dislike so much.
You should consider working for them you know how to be a completely heartless prick.
Let's check this out:
You say torture is acceptable.
You say "those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house.(sic)"
You are inable to accept criticism.
You complain at the slightest bit of provocation.
You congratulate the US government for doing some despicable things for the 'greater good'.
You then liken the US government to a 'big butthole' and 'heartless pricks'.
Then, after all these inconsistencies, you complain some more about people being vultures? We're not vultures, we're just people who have seen an example of great ignorance and hypocrisy, and embarrassed it (you) into a retreat. It seems to me that you're the one not living in the real world...
Suck it up, Petal. If you spout crap, you at least need to be able to offer a defense of it when others catch drift of the smell.
Darth Jello
Hack, you are obviously full of shit because you obviously have no concept of real pain.
I can honestly say that I do, both emotionally and physically, probably a lot more than most people know so your support of torture to satiate your own twisted sense of justice/sadistic tendancies is very disturbing.
Arachnoidfreak
How does someone accept hypocracy as a good thing? What the hell are they thinking?
P.S. Ya Krunk'd Floo ****ing owns.
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Ohhhh, they didn't do 'water-boarding', they did 'water-treatment'...ohhhh, it's different. Ohhhh...
Oh.
Schecter
another wacky and zany fraternity prank.
actually the name of that particular method has been changed to "freedom boarding"
Ya Krunk'd Floo
Oooo, I wanna try! Sounds extreme, duuuude.
Schecter
surfs up bro!
seriously..."waterboarding" in name does sound like fun.
Tempe Brennan
Any torture is wrong, so I vote no. What makes anyone think that they will gain information by torturing someone? These terrorists are not going to speak, they are not going to tell you what you want to hear, so torturing them is pointless.
I believe even suspected terrorists have a right to all the human rights we enjoy. As these people have not been convicted of a crime, under law, they are innocent. Why then, is it acceptable to torture these people, but if I were to pick someone at random and torture them, I'd be arrested and charged?
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