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Its the scene where Mace and his fellow Jedi try to arrest Sidious... replace Sidious with Revan. What happens?

Pretty much the same thing, only Mace gets killed by Revan's saber

What he said. Revan is superior to ROTS Sidious in saber combat. Then again we have no proof that he is above Mace, or Yoda..

Woot im a genius woot

Revan wipes out Agen, Saesee and Kit and then he and Mace go at it. I'll give that one 30 seconds tops. Then Mace dies.

EDITTED

If Revan is on the ground without his saber? Then likely the same thing against Mace only with a different amount of force powers, or perhaps Revan would be able to talk himself into being arrested and then escape.

Anyways without a lightsaber he's going to have a hard time standing up and then beating Mace, I can only think of a few people that would actually be able to do that, assuming a Force Push can be blocked that is.

Hmm... perhaps I should have clarified this better. In the movie we see Sidious running towards the Jedi and acting agressive... would Revan do the same and end up beaten by Mace and begging for his life on the floor? Or would he do something differnt ignoring turing Anakin alltogether?

I don't see why he would even care about Anakin...

Originally posted by tdtd
What he said. Revan is superior to ROTS Sidious in saber combat. Then again we have no proof that he is above Mace, or Yoda..

We have no more proof that Revan is above Yoda and Mace then the proof we have for him being above Sidious.

So you would rank him above Mace and yoda but not above Sidious? While Yoda is more powerful then Sids... And Mace is a greater fighter, your funny.

lol

Originally posted by Fishy
I don't see why he would even care about Anakin...

For the sake of the thread let's say he is trying to turn him.

He wouldn't give up his charming good looks for Anakin.

This is how it happens:

Revan: Gah!
Mace: It's over, you've lost.
Revan: Never! *Force lightning*
Mace: *Tries to block but gets sent flying*
*Anakin walks in*
Anakin: Mace, this is wrong, and- What happened?!

And then Revan turns him to the Dark Side or something. I dunno.

Originally posted by Rayvann
For the sake of the thread let's say he is trying to turn him.

Seeing as Revan is arguably the greatest Jedi turning son of a ***** ever, I would say he stands a great chance of turning Anakin, even without using all of those things. However if he would go in there and Anakin would come I am sure Revan could have manipulated him just like Sidious did.

Assuming they have the same history that Sidious and Anakin do...

Really? I thought he was more of a tactician than a manipulator.

He turned thousands upon thousands of Jedi into Sith.

He manipulated them all to disobey the council and join the Mandelorian wars, at the end of the war he even had those that would not join him destroyed by the Mandelorians above Malachor V...

He's turned more Jedi to the Dark Side then anybody, and had entire teams trained by him and those he trained earlier to turn other Jedi to the Dark side. I'd say the guy knew what he was doing.

Hm, I don't remember them being manipulated into going to war. I remember them following him against the Council, but why they followed him was never specified, was it?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Hm, I don't remember them being manipulated into going to war. I remember them following him against the Council, but why they followed him was never specified, was it?

Revan was described as a young charismatic knight that was loved and known throughout the Jedi Order... He was a popular Jedi and when he left to join the Mandelorian wars it was only natural many followed. Manipulating can be seen in several ways, but he and Malak sure as hell convinced them to go to war, Revan obviously doing the most as we can see from the discriptions in Kotor.

So he did in a way manipulate them but far more important then that, he knew how to turn Jedi to the Dark Side, he was an expert in it, I'm possitive he could have turned Anakin to the Dark Side as well, I mean nobody in the SW history has turned more people to the Dark Side then he did

Originally posted by Fishy
He turned thousands upon thousands of Jedi into Sith.

Obscenely exaggerated numbers. You make it seem like he converted half the Order. Turn the ''thousands'' into ''dozens'' and you have a good post.

Originally posted by discipleofzod
We have no more proof that Revan is above Yoda and Mace then the proof we have for him being above Sidious.
Is this Numan?

Yup, and I've already filed for his FIFTH ban.

What did he even do?

I don't think he did anything, this time. I think that this time it was just for fun.

Originally posted by Faunus
Obscenely exaggerated numbers. You make it seem like he converted half the Order. Turn the ''thousands'' into ''dozens'' and you have a good post.

No he actually turned a lot more then that, if you would listen to Dorak in Kotor.. Many jedi, a lot of, most of the order bla bla bla... From all that is described ti seems that the Jedi and Sith were about equal in number if the Sith were not superior seeing as the Jedi Order would have around 10.000 members if not more, I think it would be safe to say he turned thousands...

constipated jedi

Revan fries the three Jedi with Force Storm, then uses Force Speed to blitz Mace.

Revan dies horribly in this match up. His saber feats are below that of even Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan dies horribly in this match up. His saber feats are below that of even Kit Fisto.
I don't think kit Fisto could have taken on all of the Mandalorians and the basilisks. Revan, with his Saber, brought them down without too much difficulty. Sorry, but Revan's command of the force, with his memories restored, is way greater than the three Jedi. The real threat to Revan is Mace Windu.

My honest opinion,...stalemate
With the Force,...Revan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan dies horribly in this match up. His saber feats are below that of even Kit Fisto.
What a joke of an assessment.

Revan was very good with the lightsaber. Whatever tidbits we have about his dueling abilities, Revan never had an issue in getting the job done with his lightsaber combat skills; be it against multiple opponents firing at him; skilled duelists; and gigantic droids.

Revan wasn't like a typical lightsaber duelist; he was very acrobatic and his precognition abilities were legendary.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
My honest opinion,...stalemate
With the Force,...Revan.
This.

There is nothing that leads me to believe Revan would beat Mace in a sabers duel... NOTHING

I never said it would be easy for Revan. And also, Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his time. That has to count for something.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I never said it would be easy for Revan. And also, Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his time. That has to count for something.

Because most powerful Jedi of his time ~ best with a saber.



Implying that Kit Fisto was not very good with a lightsaber.
<Dueled with GG
<Dueled with Ventress
<Hailed by Kenobi as a fine duelist
<Selected as one of the 4 finest swordsmen in the order to arrest someone the Jedi Order knew was going to be Dooku level in power if not above.

Revan
<Defeated featless Malak.
<Defeated forceless Mandalore
<Hailed as a prodigious force user.

Yes Revan has much better feats with a lightsaber.

Are you saying that Revan wouldn't have beaten Grievous? Or that Obi-Wan wouldn't see Revan as a great duelist? And Malak was by no means featless. He must be strong, or he wouldn't be the Dark Lord. And the Star Forge was enhancing Malak throughout the fight.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Are you saying that Revan wouldn't have beaten Grievous? Or that Obi-Wan wouldn't see Revan as a great duelist? And Malak was by no means featless. He must be strong, or he wouldn't be the Dark Lord. And the Star Forge was enhancing Malak throughout the fight.

Agreed, I only said what I said because Revan knows the complete Juyo,which in my opinion
gives him an edge., Acrobatics can be easily countered by a true master.
I know Revan's potential who could agru with it?

The Force battle will determine the winner of this duel.
Mace will still use Vaapad and Revan will use both the light and darkside
against Mace which Vaapad specializes in.

I still say stalemate and Revan breaking the stalemate with his knowledge of the Force.

What's up Darth Sadow

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Agreed, I only said what I said because Revan knows the complete Juyo,which in my opinion
gives him an edge., Acrobatics can be easily countered by a true master.
I know Revan's potential who could agru with it?

The Force battle will determine the winner of this duel.
Mace will still use Vaapad and Revan will use both the light and darkside
against Mace which Vaapad specializes in.

I still say stalemate and Revan breaking the stalemate with his knowledge of the Force.

What's up Darth Sadow
Yay you spelled my name right! And good! Glad you agree. Good to be on your side this time again!

What lightsaber feats does Revan have that compare to Fisto's? He certainly can't take on all four of these masters.

Revan gets stomped.

How exactly does he get "Stomped"? He has killed many Jedi as a Sith Lord and many Sith as a Jedi. He knows how to fight and kill force sensitives. And why wouldn't a Dark Lord of the Sith be able to take them? He was Sith MASTER, meaning that all of the other Sith obey him because he is the strongest.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What lightsaber feats does Revan have that compare to Fisto's? He certainly can't take on all four of these masters.

Revan gets stomped.

This.

Saesee Tiin's reactions are lightspeed-level. I guess Silver was really onto something.

Piloting at lightspeed does not give you lightspeed reactions when you're travelling the vastness of space between stars during hyoerspace. There is plenty of time to turn and navigate in the, what, days of time it takes?

Also can you even turn in hyperspace?

Sure it does. Han comments in Episode IV that this is why exact hyperspace coordinates and navigation systems are necessary: without them, you could fly into a planet or other debris that litters space. Tiin navigates solely through the Force and controls the starfighter through the Force. At such speeds, with such obstacles, that's ridiculously impressive.

Yeah, bullshit. There is still no proof that he is reacting at lightspeed rather than navigating well in advance of any obstacles. The power Silver names it as and which I will assume it is named in the sources he cites since I can't find the quotes myself specifically call it astrogation, which is plotting a course, not piloting it.

Surely you know that any Jedi having reflexes that fast is massively inconsistent with just about anything else in the mythos. Its retarded. Unless we limit this solely to astrogation as seems to be the case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, bullshit.



Originally posted by Nephthys
There is still no proof that he is reacting at lightspeed rather than navigating well in advance of any obstacles. The power Silver names it as and which I will assume it is named in the sources he cites since I can't find the quotes myself specifically call it astrogation, which is plotting a course, not piloting it.

The text specifically says he controls the ship with his thoughts. If it were simply a matter of plotting out the directions, why would he need to control the ship's movements himself? Clearly he makes the maneuvers directly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Surely you know that any Jedi having reflexes that fast is massively inconsistent with just about anything else in the mythos. Its retarded. Unless we limit this solely to astrogation as seems to be the case.

Surely you do not suggest we disregard this feat because it has Saesee Tiin's name attached to it and not, say, Bane's?

I'd say the same thing for any character. Get back 2 u l8r.

That's cool, I'm studying for final exams anyways. We will delay your inevitable defeat at my hands and sex organ.

So we're all in consensus that Revan would be effortlessly and utterly annihilated here? His tremendous lack of speed, skill, power, and brains would clearly doom him.

Tiin probably solos, given his precognitive and reflexive advantages.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So we're all in consensus that Revan would be effortlessly and utterly annihilated here? His tremendous lack of speed, skill, power, and brains would clearly doom him.

Tiin probably solos, given his precognitive and reflexive advantages.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So we're all in consensus that Revan would be effortlessly and utterly annihilated here? His tremendous lack of speed, skill, power, and brains would clearly doom him.

Tiin probably solos, given his precognitive and reflexive advantages.
Epic trolling.

Tiin can react and perceive events at lightspeed. Revan swings a lightsaber in a picture at a random mook.

Tiin solos.

/thread

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tiin can react and perceive events at lightspeed. Revan swings a lightsaber in a picture at a random mook.

Tiin solos.

/thread
Lol

Revan's reactions are lightning fast and he also possesses remarkable precognitive abilities; capable of outsmarting formidable foes in few steps.

Clearly you are trolling.

Saesee Tiin's reactions are "light speed" fast and he also possesses remarkable precognition abilities.

Revan can outmaneuver mooks, big whup. Tiin can outmaneuver galactic debris and the embrace of gravity wells flying at him in hyperspace without a nav. system.

Tiin curbstomps, bro.

Don't be mad at me that Karpyshyn blew his load all over Bane and left nothing for Revan. Your boy sucks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Saesee Tiin's reactions are "light speed" fast and he also possesses remarkable precognition abilities.

Revan can outmaneuver mooks, big whup. Tiin can outmaneuver galactic debris and the embrace of gravity wells flying at him in hyperspace without a nav. system.

Tiin curbstomps, bro.

Don't be mad at me that Karpyshyn blew his load all over Bane and left nothing for Revan. Your boy sucks.
By your logic he should shit on Dooku too because we never saw Dooku performing this feat.

Oh wait! He must be better then Yoda too.

Now see how delusional you are?

Nice try, bro.

Yoda is clearly faster than Tiin by virtue of his ability to keep pace with Sidious whereas Tiin could not. Dooku, similarly, was able to keep pace with Yoda, who is in Sidious's speed class.

Sorry, bro. You fail again.

But, by all means, keep regaling us with comments like "Revan is a talented lightsaber duelist!" and "he's like really cute!" so he winz!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nice try, bro.

Yoda is clearly faster than Tiin by virtue of his ability to keep pace with Sidious whereas Tiin could not. Dooku, similarly, was able to keep pace with Yoda, who is in Sidious's speed class.

Sorry, bro. You fail again.

But, by all means, keep regaling us with comments like "Revan is a talented lightsaber duelist!" and "he's like really cute!" so he winz!
We never saw Yoda performing this feat of Tin which you are using in this thread as a benchmark for combat abilities. Yoda was/is still considerably better combatant then Tin.

Just because Revan's story has not been imagined in this manner; doesn't means that you can logically underestimate his combat capabilities on the basis of Tin's feat. It proves nothing here because you are not getting its nature; it has relevance with piloting skills.

Heck, consider Anakin in place of Yoda and situation is same; Anakin was/is better combatant then Tin.

We don't need to. Tiin, fast as he was, could not keep pace with Sidious. Yoda could. Yoda is clearly faster.

Revan has no such redeeming element. He loses, his feats are unremarkable and that is the basis by which we must compare them. Saying "he is a good telepath!" and he's "really fast!" and "he is really strong in the Force!" changes nothing.

Reiterating such broad remarks might help you reach sexual climax quicker, but it does nothing for this thread. You have to make a strong case for Revan's reflexes vis a vis Tiin's. You haven't.

Outpacing a non-Force sensitive mook and not crashing a ship into a mountainside aren't comparable to Tiin's vastly superior combination of precognition/reflexes.

While that may in fact be true, Anakin and Revan are different people.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We don't need to. Tiin, fast as he was, could not keep pace with Sidious. Yoda could. Yoda is clearly faster.
Revan's reaction time is also extreme.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan has no such redeeming element.
Revan was great with telepathy as well. At one time, he attempted to sense the presence of Meetra accross the breath of the Galaxy; unfortunately, Meetra had cut herself from the Force during this time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He loses, his feats are unremarkable and that is the basis by which we must compare them.
And this is why no one should take you seriously.

Have you forgotten how Revan handled the Imperial Guard (empowered by none other but Sith Emperor himself)?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Saying "he is a good telepath!" and he's "really fast!" and "he is really strong in the Force!" changes nothing.
These points are relevant because this is how he has been promoted in the Star Wars. In fact, he has feats which prove all of these claims.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Reiterating such broad remarks might help you reach sexual climax quicker, but it does nothing for this thread. You have to make a strong case for Revan's reflexes vis a vis Tiin's. You haven't.
I have. You choose to stay blind.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Outpacing a non-Force sensitive mook and not crashing a ship into a mountainside aren't comparable to Tiin's vastly superior combination of precognition/reflexes.
Genius; Revan have outpaced formidable opponents in similar manner. And Revan's reaction time is also extreme.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
While that may in fact be true, Anakin and Revan are different people.
Useless point.

facepalm

If I say Person X "is the fastest person in the world" and you say Person Y "is fast as well," you haven't addressed my argument, you've only wasted my time.

Revan being fast in no way undermines the fact that Tiin is faster and by a considerable margin.



Irrelevant. You've offered nothing to suggest Revan is a precog on Tiin's level.



You mean the non-Force sensitive mooks? Yeah, I remember. Color me unimpressed.



No, they're not. If I say Saesee Tiin has lightspeed reactions and you say Revan is fast, all you've done is say that Revan is fast. Your burden is to prove he's faster. Being fast and being faster are two entirely different concepts.



You haven't. All you've done is say he's fast. You haven't shown how he's faster.



Revan being fast does not mean he's as fast as Tiin.



No, just one you're too stupid to understand.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I say Person X "is the fastest person in the world" and you say Person Y "is fast as well," you haven't addressed my argument, you've only wasted my time.

Revan being fast in no way undermines the fact that Tiin is faster and by a considerable margin.
Bullshit.

Revan's reaction time is instantaneous:

The impact sent the Hawk into a spiraling, twisting roll. Revan wrenched the stick from side to side, fighting for control. Using the Force, he was able to anticipate and react to the erratic flight with instantaneous precision adjustments, keeping the ship aloft until it regained its equilibrium.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Irrelevant. You've offered nothing to suggest Revan is a precog on Tiin's level.
Bullshit

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You mean the non-Force sensitive mooks? Yeah, I remember. Color me unimpressed.
These mooks were capable of going toe-to-toe EXPERT swordsmen.

Another baseless point from you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, they're not. If I say Saesee Tiin has lightspeed reactions and you say Revan is fast, all you've done is say that Revan is fast. Your burden is to prove he's faster. Being fast and being faster are two entirely different concepts.
Revan's reaction time is instantaneous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You haven't. All you've done is say he's fast. You haven't shown how he's faster.
See above.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan being fast does not mean he's as fast as Tiin.
Revan is extraordinarily fast.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, just one you're too stupid to understand.
No, you are.

^ This is Obi-Wan Kenobi shortly before the events of TPM, who is also reacting "instantaneously." Of course he's moving his entire body, whereas Revan is making adjustments with his limbs.

The same Obi-Wan Kenobi who says Tiin's abilities with Force-guided hyperspace travel is "beyond his abilities" in The Jedi Path.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
body, whereas Revan is making adjustments with his limbs.

The same Obi-Wan Kenobi who says Tiin's abilities with Force-guided hyperspace travel is "beyond his abilities" in The Jedi Path.
And yet Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin, who is better then Tin. You just destroyed your own argument.

Your smart-assery isn't going to save your pathetic assessment.

facepalm

No, it just means TPM!Obi-Wan, like Anakin and Tiin, are faster than Revan.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

No, it just means TPM!Obi-Wan, like Anakin and Tiin, are faster than Revan.
Not at all; you deluded PT fanboy.

Revan and Obi-Wan did two different things. Revan's feat is about judgement and reflexes; Obi-Wan's feat is about physical movement.

Take some time off. You are not thinking clearly.

Exactly: TPM!Obi-Wan can move his entire body in the speed it takes for Revan to move only his hands. Reaction is not limited to just movement of limbs, bro.

You lose. stoned

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Exactly: TPM!Obi-Wan can move his entire body in the speed it takes for Revan to move only his hands. Reaction is not limited to just movement of limbs, bro.

You lose. stoned
Are you drunk at this moment?

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Revan was piloting a ship; Obi-Wan wasn't.

Again, Obi-Wan can move exponentially greater mass and weight (his entire body) in the duration of time it takes Revan to move exponentially smaller mass and weight (his hands). Obi-Wan's feat is significantly more impressive, further proof that the earlier excerpt you provided about "lightning fast reflexes of a Jedi" referred to common reflexes.

As it stands, Tiin solos.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, Obi-Wan can move exponentially greater mass and weight (his entire body) in the duration of time it takes Revan to move exponentially smaller mass and weight (his hands). Obi-Wan's feat is significantly more impressive, further proof that the earlier excerpt you provided about "lightning fast reflexes of a Jedi" referred to common reflexes.

As it stands, Tiin solos.
Epic failure of logic. First you were talking about piloting skills and now you have jumped towards physical movements. Apples and oranges comparison.

Revan's feat is about precognition:

The impact sent the Hawk into a spiraling, twisting roll. Revan wrenched the stick from side to side, fighting for control. Using the Force, he was able to anticipate and react to the erratic flight with instantaneous precision adjustments, keeping the ship aloft until it regained its equilibrium.

Obi-Wan's feat isn't about precognition but he used the Force to run very fast. Entirely different feat.

No, we were talking about reaction times, speed, and precognition. Revan is slower than TPM!Obi-Wan, thanks for playing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, we were talking about reaction times, speed, and precognition. Revan is slower than TPM!Obi-Wan, thanks for playing.
Unlike Revan's, Obi-Wan's feat isn't about precognition and reaction towards anything. Obi-Wan was running towards a Pod. You need to rest because your mind isn't working right now.

I am talking about precognition and reaction rate. I am not talking about physical movement.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But, by all means, keep regaling us with comments like "Revan is a talented lightsaber duelist!" and "he's like really cute!" so he winz!


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Reiterating such broad remarks might help you reach sexual climax quicker, but it does nothing for this thread.


lmao

Originally posted by tdtd
What he said. Revan is superior to ROTS Sidious in saber combat. Then again we have no proof that he is above Mace, or Yoda..

Even if it's Revan after he fought and was defeated by the Sith Emperor, he dies without killing any of those Jedi.

He has many more powers, but so did Galen Marek, although not to such a degree as Revan. Yet still Sidious pulverized Galen Marek, as he would Revan, as he would Vitiate...even at that point.

The only Sith capable of beating him in direct combat on even terms was summarized to be his master Plagueis, but even Plageuis was slightly less powerful all together.

The key to Sidious' abilities in lightsaber combat was his Force Speed, a power which was taken beyond the point Revan could ever wield. Sidious' Force Speed was such that he could eliminate two Jedi before the four Jedi Masters knew that they had been engaged. That is an extreme use of Force Speed matched only by Plaguies.

I think even Plagueis' master was stronger than Bane, the Sith progressively grew stronger because of the rule of two, to the point where only the Chosen One could take the mantle, but Vader couldn't accept who he had become.

Originally posted by Dolos
Even if it's Revan after he fought and was defeated by the Sith Emperor, he dies without killing any of those Jedi.


Here;

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malgus have contended with relatively stronger foes and survived; and even defeated relatively stronger foes.

About those 3 Jedi Masters;

Kolar: Sparring matches prove nothing. Jedi don't kill in sparring matches; they simply test their abilities in safest possible manner in them. Also, Mace got better, didn't he?

Yes, Kolar handled Vos. Good. However, I don't recall Vos as being among the Elites of the Jedi Order. Any other person of note whom Kolar handled?

Kolar sounds like PT equivalent of Kavar from TOR at best.

Fisto: He handled Grievous because of his proficiency with Form I of lightsaber combat. However, he sucked in one-on-one confrontation against a skilled duelist such as Assaj. His failure against Sidious doesn't surprises me.

Tin: Apart from verbal fellatos; I don't see any major accomplishments of this Jedi in combat either.

Originally posted by Dolos
He has many more powers, but so did Galen Marek, although not to such a degree as Revan. Yet still Sidious pulverized Galen Marek, as he would Revan, as he would Vitiate...even at that point.
Gallen himself gave up.

Originally posted by Dolos
The only Sith capable of beating him in direct combat on even terms was summarized to be his master Plagueis, but even Plageuis was slightly less powerful all together.
Actually the author clarified in a Q&A session that Plageuis could handle Sidious in fair circumstances.

Originally posted by Dolos
The key to Sidious' abilities in lightsaber combat was his Force Speed, a power which was taken beyond the point Revan could ever wield. Sidious' Force Speed was such that he could eliminate two Jedi before the four Jedi Masters knew that they had been engaged. That is an extreme use of Force Speed matched only by Plaguies.
Well, the issue here is that we do not know the limits of Revan in terms of his Force speed. However, it is apparent from his novel that his precognitive abilities are nothing short of amazing.

This whole argument of speed should be revisited.

- Sidious fought Yoda

- Dooku fought Yoda

- Anakin & Obi-Wan have fought Dooku several times.

In fact, several other individuals have fought Dooku. And I never saw Dooku biltzing any celebrated warrior in combat. And yet Dooku was able to keep up with Yoda; who in turn was able to keep up with Sidious.

So the entire situation is ambiguous. Those 3 Jedi Masters whom Sidious blitzed do not have combat resume on par with that of Revan. Therefore, you assumption is premature.

Originally posted by Dolos
I think even Plagueis' master was stronger than Bane, the Sith progressively grew stronger because of the rule of two, to the point where only the Chosen One could take the mantle, but Vader couldn't accept who he had become.
And you know that how the stage of RO2 was set? With teachings of Revan.

You highly overestimated the Jedi and Sith from the Old Republic Saga.

The Clone Wars Jedi and Sith were far more powerful. Especially the Sith, the Rule of Two states that one Sith cannot surpass another without being stronger in the Force.

Sidious would have decimated his master in a fair fight by DE anyway. And stated that Vader, after losing all those midichlorians, could still surpass him. Yoda was more Force sensitive than Sidious, and Dooku said Yoda could surpass him if he were a Sith. Luke could surpass him as well. Vader was limited by his inner conflict, Yoda by the Light Side, and Luke by the Light Side. It's not all about Force potential.

Originally posted by Dolos
You highly overestimated the Jedi and Sith from the Old Republic Saga.
No. I recognize the elites of every era and give them their due.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Clone Wars Jedi and Sith were far more powerful.
You need to pay more attention to TOR lore then. CW era Jedi weren't more powerful in general. In fact, prowess in combat arts/techniques was important to Jedi during TOR era due to massive kinds of threats Jedi/Republic had to face on periodic basis. In contrast, the Jedi Order relatively experienced a long period of peace during RO2 era.

Thus far, I have noticed that by the time of CW, certain lightsaber dueling arts were further improved/developed but few mastered these.

And among the Sith, only Sidious stood out in history. He succeeded where others failed but this was made possible through RO2 strategy. If command of the Force is taken in to consideration; much of what Sidious demonstrated had been performed in previous times. So nothing unique in this aspect.

Originally posted by Dolos
Especially the Sith, the Rule of Two states that one Sith cannot surpass another without being stronger in the Force.
Debatable. Bane, regardless of being the first member, still ranks among the most powerful Sith Lords in history. Maul and Dooku were also part of RO2, correct? They weren't stronger then Bane. In fact, weaker then him.

Originally posted by Dolos
Sidious would have decimated his master in a fair fight by DE anyway.
This is possible. Though I still do not know that how easy this fight would be because Luke did chop his hand off during a duel.

Originally posted by Dolos
And stated that Vader, after losing all those midichlorians, could still surpass him.
Where?

Originally posted by Dolos
Yoda was more Force sensitive than Sidious,
Evidence?

Originally posted by Dolos
and Dooku said Yoda could surpass him if he were a Sith. Luke could surpass him as well.
In Dooku's opinion. Perhaps, Yoda would have become more effective combatant. But then, Sidious had spent lot of time in understanding the ways of the Sith.

If Yoda had begin as a Sith then he could possibly become better. Would have been interesting scenario.

Originally posted by Dolos
Vader was limited by his inner conflict,
From Star Wars official website:

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful. He can command the power of the dark side to hurl objects or remotely crush the throats of his victims.

Vader packed raw power but was weakened and restricted in the ways of the Force due to his injuries. (I hate you Obi-Wan)

Originally posted by Dolos
Yoda by the Light Side, and Luke by the Light Side. It's not all about Force potential.
To some extent this is correct. Yoda is passive/defensive in nature though he can go on the offensive sometimes. Luke is not as much passive; he can really raise the stakes when he feels the need to.

I agree that it is not all about potential.

In asking for that evidence, it's on Wookieepedia, Anakin Skywalker's bio page, under Powers and Abilities, As a Sith Lord. It will give you the canon source there as well.

The Clone Wars Jedi were more skilled overall, when you get into the Clone Wars TV series, and add that up with the Cartoon and the Novels, and then the Novelizations of the Prequel Trilogy, they had better Jedi than TOR. TOR's best Jedi other than Revan was his daughter, the Grand Master, Mace Windu was stronger and more skilled in combat than both Revan and his daughter. And Yoda was stronger than him. Count Dooku approaches Revan.

Dooku and Maul were apprentices in the Rule of Two, but they never became masters themselves. They couldn't without becoming stronger than Sidious. That's why the Rule of Two was the strongest Sith Order in the mythos, and Sidious was the strongest Sith.

Luke's second battle with The Dark Emperor was not on even terms, neither was his battle with Windu. The only ones who ever challenged him on equal terms were Yoda and Galen Marek, and they both lost.

Originally posted by Dolos
In asking for that evidence, it's on Wookieepedia, Anakin Skywalker's bio page, under Powers and Abilities, As a Sith Lord. It will give you the canon source there as well.
Cybernetic Vader could never surpass Sidious in power and neither had the potential to do so. This is why he wanted an ally to help him in his plans against Sidious. Such plans of Vader failed, however, as neither Gallen and nor Luke helped him in this task.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Clone Wars Jedi were more skilled overall, when you get into the Clone Wars TV series, and add that up with the Cartoon and the Novels, and then the Novelizations of the Prequel Trilogy, they had better Jedi than TOR.
This is an assumption. Unfortunately, TOR era characters do not get much screen time and this is why their true abilities do not come to light.

However, whenever, TOR era characters have gotten screen time, they were simply amazing in combat.

Originally posted by Dolos
TOR's best Jedi other than Revan was his daughter, the Grand Master, Mace Windu was stronger and more skilled in combat than both Revan and his daughter. And Yoda was stronger than him.
Mace Windu wasn't stronger then Revan and Satele. Mace have better showings with the lightsaber and Revan have better showings with the Force. However, Revan's lightsaber dueling abilities have not been revealed to full extent yet. Interestingly, Mace and Revan have been identified as Champions of the Jedi Order.

It is also debatable if Yoda is stronger then Revan and Satele either; Yoda is much more explored in comparison. However, Satele also became the Grand Jedi Master like him.

Originally posted by Dolos
Count Dooku approaches Revan.
No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Dolos
Dooku and Maul were apprentices in the Rule of Two, but they never became masters themselves. They couldn't without becoming stronger than Sidious. That's why the Rule of Two was the strongest Sith Order in the mythos, and Sidious was the strongest Sith.
Not necessarily. RO2 was like a niche.

In the Book of Sith; following individuals have been identified as the strongest predecessors of Sidious:

- Sorus Syn
- Darth Malgus
- Darth Bane
- Mother Talzin
- Darth Plagueis

However, other canonical sources are promoting Vitiate as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Not to forget that their some other powerhouses as well such Darth Jadus, Darth Nihilus, Darth Nyriss, Exar Kun and Darth Traya.

Originally posted by Dolos
Luke's second battle with The Dark Emperor was not on even terms,
Why not?

Originally posted by Dolos
neither was his battle with Windu.
Wrong. Windu sank in to Vaapad to handle Sidious. He did gain advantage over Sidious; this doesn't means that Windu was more powerful.

Originally posted by Dolos
The only ones who ever challenged him on equal terms were Yoda and Galen Marek, and they both lost.
In a sense. However, Gallen willingly gave-up. And so did Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fapping to The Old Republic MMO

#1:



#2: They demonstrated less power and overall capabilities in combat, despite their "neat Force powers". You can't just say they're more powerful but simply lack the showings to prove it. Let's not forget Mace Windu crushing General Grevious' chest, or Yoda TKing Droid Capital ships practically as large as Star Destroyers with ease and precision. At least we can assume Yoda and Mace Windu are eons ahead of other Jedi, only faintly matched by the likes of Obi-Wan or Qui Gon Jinn, and more closely matched yet still far beyond the likes of Count Dooku and Darth Vader...and surpassed by Sidious.

#3: Yes he was. As for Force powers his Force speed and TK allowed him to destroy an entire army of Super Battle Droids and their super weapon pretty much on his own, at parts of that battle he was unarmed. Ian (the actor who played Sidious) explains that Mace Windu fights hundreds of times faster than other Jedi in the Making of Star Wars EP III.

And don't let me start on Yoda. He was canonically stated in the ROTS novelization as the most powerful Jedi the order had ever known. I hope you can understand straight canon statements and the weight they hold.

#4: Yes he does,

#5: So you're a canon source now? Read Gideon's Darkness Beyond Darkness: I am not making my canon statements up, and at least I'm giving sources (ROTS novel for both Palpatine and Yoda). To compound Gideon's three examples of Palpatine being the strongest Sith ever in canon statements, Maul stated it as well in CW during the 4th Season). The only other time a statement like this was made was on the plot summary on the back of the Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil novel...which was not a canon statement, but stated that Zannah and Bane were the strongest Sith Lords in history.

#6: The Emperor was conjuring a Force storm during the duel, and purposefully lost (as he effortlessly disarmed Luke in a duel mere hours earlier, that loss could be nothing more than intentional, even with Leia and her child's help through Force valor/Battle meditation). After the duel Luke, his sister, and her unborn child used Force Light to turn the Emperor's Force storm on him...which had nothing to do with his lack of power. it was a variable Sidious hadn't considered, and one he wasn't prepared for, like losing a duel with his apprentice Luke.

#7: Vaapad didn't save Windu, an opportune shatterpoint did when Windu and the Emperor's stamina began to fade. The Emperor could have easily overpowered Windu without three other Jedi Masters, one of them powerful enough to defeat General Grevious (Kit Fisto, Clone Wars season 1), that further debilitated his stamina, which still was equal to the young Windu's afterward. And then in Empire's End, after his only good Clone body had been destroyed by his Dark Side Wormhole, the Emperor's pathetically weak physical form again proved unable to wield the necessary dark side energy to stand against Luke (stronger than Satele and Revan at this point, practically Legacy of the Force level) and his Jedi.

Point being the Force can only do so much when you're old an bridle like Palpatine, and outnumbered. It was not on equal terms, if Windu had been alone he would have died before Sidious' power went plateau as it did when he was aided by Kit and the other two Masters. Remember it took him a few more seconds to kill Kit, whereas the first masters died instantly, then it took him several minutes before he and his last assailant expended their last reserves.

#8: Because they both realized they were no match for the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos. In both novelizations this is stated.

Originally posted by Dolos
#1:
Thanks for sharing that information. Kindly mention the source as well.

This information represents Sidious's opinion. It isn't necessarily an indication of reality because George Lucas and numerous other sources point out that Vader lost his true potential after his injuries on Mustafar.

As an example: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/darthvader/

Originally posted by Dolos
#2: They demonstrated less power and overall capabilities in combat, despite their "neat Force powers". You can't just say they're more powerful but simply lack the showings to prove it.
No.

- Did you forget that Darth Nihilus lifted a Cruiser from the surface of Malachor with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Did you forget that Darth Jadus held together a ripped apart Cruiser with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Malgus once faced a Jedi in combat who used the Force to collapse two buildings around Malgus's position with a chunk of debris falling over the Sith Lord.

Their would be more examples.

Originally posted by Dolos
Let's not forget Mace Windu crushing General Grevious' chest,
Grievous is a (non) Force-sensitive with no defence against Force based attacks. Remember that Force push of Obi-Wan which send Grievous packing away from him?

Originally posted by Dolos
or Yoda TKing Droid Capital ships practically as large as Star Destroyers with ease and precision.
Those ships (I assume to be C-9979 landing craft, if I recall correctly) weren't as large as Star Destroyers. And this feat is from Non-CGI 2D CW medium, which ridiculously overpowered characters. TOR era characters have not been featured in this medium yet.

Originally posted by Dolos
At least we can assume Yoda and Mace Windu are eons ahead of other Jedi, only faintly matched by the likes of Obi-Wan or Qui Gon Jinn, and more closely matched yet still far beyond the likes of Count Dooku and Darth Vader...and surpassed by Sidious.
Mace and Yoda were the strongest Jedi during PT period. No doubts about this. They certainly rank among the elites of the Jedi Order in history.

Originally posted by Dolos
#3: Yes he was. As for Force powers his Force speed and TK allowed him to destroy an entire army of Super Battle Droids and their super weapon pretty much on his own, at parts of that battle he was unarmed.
No, he wasn't. Revan once destroyed an entire army of Star Forge's battle droids. Interestingly, these battle droids were designed to match Jedi in combat.

Also, Revan reached Darth Malak's position in the Star Forge unharmed after so much fighting.

Originally posted by Dolos
Ian (the actor who played Sidious) explains that Mace Windu fights hundreds of times faster than other Jedi in the Making of Star Wars EP III.
Good for him. I wonder how fast Revan was, keeping in mind his performance in the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Dolos
And don't let me start on Yoda. He was canonically stated in the ROTS novelization as the most powerful Jedi the order had ever known. I hope you can understand straight canon statements and the weight they hold.
I fully understand the importance of canon materials. However, Star Wars is ever-evolving platform and retcons occur in the process.

In one source, Yoda was described as extraordinarily powerful in the Force. In the same source, Luke wasn't.

So lets just avoid getting in to this tricky situation.

Originally posted by Dolos
#4: Yes he does,
No, he doesn't.

Revan have endured hundreds of years of torture; fought through armies of Mandalorians and Sith; and defeated extraordinarily powerful foes. Heck, his knowledge paved way for Sith to become strong once again after a long period.

Revan is above the likes of Maul, Dooku and Vader. Sorry.

Originally posted by Dolos
#5: So you're a canon source now? Read Gideon's Darkness Beyond Darkness: I am not making my canon statements up, and at least I'm giving sources (ROTS novel for both Palpatine and Yoda). To compound Gideon's three examples of Palpatine being the strongest Sith ever in canon statements, Maul stated it as well in CW during the 4th Season). The only other time a statement like this was made was on the plot summary on the back of the Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil novel...which was not a canon statement, but stated that Zannah and Bane were the strongest Sith Lords in history.
Gideon's essay is outdated. Lot have changed afterwards.

You will be amazed by the disclosures in the new Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia. When my copy will arrive, I will gladly do the honors.

B/W do you know that Darth Plagueis have also been stated to be the strongest Sith Lord in history?

So let us keep the "most powerful" arguments in the bag.

Originally posted by Dolos
#6: The Emperor was conjuring a Force storm during the duel, and purposefully lost (as he effortlessly disarmed Luke in a duel mere hours earlier, that loss could be nothing more than intentional, even with Leia and her child's help through Force valor/Battle meditation). After the duel Luke, his sister, and her unborn child used Force Light to turn the Emperor's Force storm on him...which had nothing to do with his lack of power. it was a variable Sidious hadn't considered, and one he wasn't prepared for, like losing a duel with his apprentice Luke.
I have DE in my possession.

Luke engaged Sidious in a lightsaber duel while Leia watched. During this duel, Luke disarmed Sidious. The latter then decided to conjure a Force Storm to destroy Luke and Leia and possibly more. However, Luke and Leia stopped him from doing so by using the Force Harmony technique.

I don't remember correctly but Sidious was cut off from the Force or something?

Originally posted by Dolos
#7: Vaapad didn't save Windu, an opportune shatterpoint did when Windu and the Emperor's stamina began to fade.
Vaapad helped Mace go toe-to-toe with Sidious, as per ROTS novelization. Yes, Mace found an opening and exploited it.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Emperor could have easily overpowered Windu without three other Jedi Masters, one of them powerful enough to defeat General Grevious (Kit Fisto, Clone Wars season 1), that further debilitated his stamina, which still was equal to the young Windu's afterward. And then in Empire's End, after his only good Clone body had been destroyed by his Dark Side Wormhole, the Emperor's pathetically weak physical form again proved unable to wield the necessary dark side energy to stand against Luke (stronger than Satele and Revan at this point, practically Legacy of the Force level) and his Jedi.
Luke, by DE, wasn't stronger then Revan and Satele.

Originally posted by Dolos
Point being the Force can only do so much when you're old an bridle like Palpatine, and outnumbered. It was not on equal terms, if Windu had been alone he would have died before Sidious' power went plateau as it did when he was aided by Kit and the other two Masters. Remember it took him a few more seconds to kill Kit, whereas the first masters died instantly, then it took him several minutes before he and his last assailant expended their last reserves.
Windu alone could handle Sidious as he had shown. He was alone after the 3 Jedi Masters were struck down.

Yes, I can understand the limitations imposed by old age. But Palpatine still had lot in him;

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine? (ROTS Novel)

&

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. (ROTS Novel)

Originally posted by Dolos
#8: Because they both realized they were no match for the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos. In both novelizations this is stated.
Well! I will not expand on this argument.

I think Wookieepedia copied that text directly from Labyrinth of Evil, if not it was from one of the Encyclopedias, most likely the Dark Side sourcebook. That was not a random editor's writing. It just wasn't.



Yes he lost his true potential, which was stated and sourced by Gideon to be DOUBLE Palpatine's AFTER losing his arm, he lost 30-40% of his potential at best, still had a greater potential than Yoda and Sidious.




I'm confuesed first you say they are less powerful because they haven't been expanded upon yet (TOR is smaller than the Film Trilogies, it's been milked as far as it will be), now you're saying their feats are far superior? Giving those feats? Please! The only one good example you gave was Darth Nihilus, of course he's about Yoda's superior, only slightly less powerful than Vitiate, who's slightly less powerful than Plagueis, who's slightly less powerful the DE Sidious.



But Obi-Wan never demonstrated the capability to crush Grevious' entire sternum in combat.



And they never will be.



Each of them are the strongest in history, Dooku as a Jedi, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were at or above Revan and Satele Shan. They just never demonstrated mastery of Tutaminis or Force heal, yet fodder Jedi of the CW demonstrated Force heal in the novels and many other Force powers never demonstrated in the novelizations or films in the cartoon and animated series on top of the novels and games from that era.



Now you're exaggerating his feat, it was not an army, it was a small contingent, no super weapon was soloed either, Revan had help from entire battle cruisers with the Star Forge.



Malak would be fodder compared to Dooku or Windu.



As far as prequels are concerned, you can write anything new made off by a statement like "the strongest in history." Trust me, the feats will continue to become more impressive. Doesn't mean whoever performs them is stronger. In fact, I would NOT even consider feats when comparing Anakin (strongest Force sensitive in history), Sidious (strongest Sith Lord in history), and Yoda (Strongest Jedi in history), because it wouldn't make sense to do so.



Why do you think that is? Yoda couldn't possibly be stronger than Luke Skywalker could he? Although I would argue that by the LOTF era Luke had surpassed Yoda as a master of the Light Side.



And just wank whatever era is more recent in Star Wars mythology? It's simply not true to claim the PT era doesn't have over a thousand years worth of knowledge TOR and access to a far more extensive array of Force powers as well as more overall Jedi in number and more powerful Jedi AND Sith (RO2), when it's stated to have these things. Feats aside.



His knowledge helped one Sith out, Bane. Bane's study wasn't nearly as thorough as Plagueis' anyway, who knew of Vitiate and Revan and everything else in history, and practiced these teachings.



Yeah, he's stronger than Maul, weaker in the Force than Vader, and his powers when compared to Dooku are unknown.



Nothing has changed, the works he sourced still exist and TOR is HISTORY to these works, everything added in TOR builds upon PT Force users, nothing more.



You can use it as a playboy magazine for all I care, I have wookieepedia, which is the entire literature summarized for my convenience.



He was until DE.



How about no.



Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.



His powers were mainly being concentrated on the Force Storm. A power which requires far more concentration for a single Sith Lord than the ritual on Nathema or the Sith Supernova Naga Sadow generated, though it requires less time and preparation than the two other rituals. But it can't just be created instantly like you claim it was, Palpatine must have been working on that hours before that duel even began.



No, Windu being stronger in the Force than Revan and a more powerful overall master of Lightsaber combat allowed him to go toe-to-toe with a Sidious who was rapidly losing his stamina in the Force.



Luke was destroying AT-ATs and the Emperor's Sith Executes with mere hand gestures. I would go as far as to say he was Windu's equal by DE. He was stronger in the Force than most Jedi, obviously with more potential than Sidious, and he had six years of training
(with far more access to Jedi knowledge) on his father by ROTS.



Yet he was pushed back immediately, expending every ounce of his energy to keep up with Sidious, before they both plateaus, and Windu physically overpowered Sidious after finding an opening through his shatterpoint vision. Windu was in his prime, Sidious was far from his prime, that's why Windu wouldn't have won if Sidious had started fresh.



He had enough to wear Windu out, and that's exactly what he did, using up everything he had left.

This, in a nutshell. The problem is that while newer works traditionally retcon older works in lieu of cohesion, TOR chronologically precedes Emperor Palpatine, which means that it may not a change a thing.



Wookieepedia isn't a canon source, though it can be useful if its statements are cited. It's always preferable around here to draw upon the actual source material. Having said that, The Old Republic Encyclopedia is written entirely in-universe according to its authors. It is by no means binding or authoritative.

Originally posted by Dolos
I think Wookieepedia copied that text directly from Labyrinth of Evil, if not it was from one of the Encyclopedias, most likely the Dark Side sourcebook. That was not a random editor's writing. It just wasn't.
Ok. Will check it out.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yes he lost his true potential, which was stated and sourced by Gideon to be DOUBLE Palpatine's AFTER losing his arm, he lost 30-40% of his potential at best, still had a greater potential than Yoda and Sidious.
Gideon is not a source, bro. I respect him as a talented debater though. You need to pinpoint the exact source which suggests that the cybernatic Vader still had potential to surpass both Yoda and Sidious. As far as I know, this is contradictory to Lucas's official standing on this matter.

Originally posted by Dolos
I'm confuesed first you say they are less powerful because they haven't been expanded upon yet (TOR is smaller than the Film Trilogies, it's been milked as far as it will be), now you're saying their feats are far superior? Giving those feats?
You are confused for sure. I never stated that TOR era Force-wielders were generally weaker then PT era Force-wielders. Champions existed in both eras.

Originally posted by Dolos
Please! The only one good example you gave was Darth Nihilus, of course he's about Yoda's superior, only slightly less powerful than Vitiate, who's slightly less powerful than Plagueis, who's slightly less powerful the DE Sidious.
I will be hesitant to rank Jedi and Sith in terms of power. Even Lucas Arts refrains from doing so apart from allowing ambigious/hyperbolic statements to be published in Star Wars related materials. Yes, Sidious have been touted as the most powerful practitioner of the dark side but prior to introduction of Vitiate.

Feats wise (in no specific order);

- Vitiate broke largest number of Force-wielders in one place with his telekinetic powers; 8000 Sith Lords simultaneously.

- Sidious could wreak havoc with his Force Storms; he did lot of damage to Coruscant with this power once. He would also have wiped out an entire fleet with this deadly power, if Luke and Leia had not stopped him.

- Nihilus destroyed an entire planet with his Force-draining powers.

So we have at least 3 Sith Lords who have set records.

Among these 3 Sith Lords; Nihilus hadn't been promoted much in terms of power. I blame KoTOR 2 authors for this laziness/lack of attention. Darth Nihilus is one of least explored characters in Star Wars lore unfortunately. Due to this reason, his feat of destroying a planet was regarded as a rumor in Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia. The source which revealed this feat is titled Unseen Unheard. So Darth Nihilus remains a stuff of legend in terms of power-ranking. And end-result was that Sidious remained unchallenged in terms of promotion in the Star Wars The Complete Enyclopedia.

However, SWTOR authors aren't making this mistake. They are promoting Vitiate in a good manner. So it remains to be seen that how this character pans out in terms of promotion in a nuetral source. However, politics within Lucas Arts, isn't very nuetral towards EU characters.

It is possible that Sidious may still be touted as the most powerful practitioner of the dark side but this still does not changes much for him in versus debates; this accolade doesn't makes him invincible in combat. As both Mace and Luke have bested him in combat and they were less powerful. It is possible that more individuals can defeat him in combat. Star Wars is a dynamic world. This is my ultimate agenda in these debates.

Power helps when disparity is great. However, when disparity isn't great; then fights can get interesting.

----------------

Also, it seems like I did not elaborate on Darth Jadus's feat properly before;

Darth Jadus prevented disintegration of an Imperial Cruiser in space with his power in the Force to keep himself alive. This is one bad@ss telekinetic feat.

Originally posted by Dolos
But Obi-Wan never demonstrated the capability to crush Grevious' entire sternum in combat.
Mace had relatively better command of the Force. Simple.

Originally posted by Dolos
And they never will be.
You work for Lucas Arts?

Originally posted by Dolos
Each of them are the strongest in history,
It remains to be seen that how the recently introduced TOR era powerhouses will be percieved in the upcoming Star Wars literature after significant promotions.

Originally posted by Dolos
Dooku as a Jedi, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were at or above Revan and Satele Shan.
Don't make bold claims without evidence. Just because these characters are vastly explored; doesn't means that they are on par with the likes of Revan and Satele or can contend with these two.

To understand the power of Revan and Satate, it is important to focus on their combat history and how good their opponents were.

Darth Malgus: (One of the greatest opponents of Satele Shan)

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

This duel ended with Malgus emerging victorious. The Jedi Master he cut down was extraordinarily talented in lightsaber dueling arts and his command of the Force was also impressive (as you can see in this footage). Malgus's Master was no match for Darach in the Force despite packing strong defensive abilities (He easily tolerated a direct missile hit and absorbed its blast as an example). Later on, Darach hurled a Starship Engine towards Malgus like a missile. And even this formidable attack didn't stop Malgus; such was his strength. So if Malgus could bring down such a powerful Jedi Master in his junior days; think about it that how strong he would have been during his battle in Aldeeran.

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer

You see what kind of feats Satele performed as a Jedi Knight in this duel?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Just upon landing, unleashed a special power which killed 3 Sith Marauders simultaneously;
2. Charged towards Malgus with knocking out pretty much everything in her path as if they were nothing;
3. Ripped through the foundation of a large tree causing it to fall (large trees are very heavy and strong, mind you);
4. Combined her dueling skills with stunning speed and acrobatics to escape from death-like situations (Count Dooku struggles against acrobatics, mind you);
5. Stopped a lightsaber blow with bare hands;
6. And then Force-dominated Malgus (a very powerful Sith Lord, mind you), destroying a gigantic boulder in the process (gigantic boulders are mind-boggling heavy, mind you);

Malgus afterwards faced two more Jedi on the same planet but at a different place. This battle has been explored in a source called The Third Lesson.

During this battle, a Jedi Master collapsed two buildings on the position of Malgus. The Sith Lord was trapped within a mountain of rubble with a chunk of it landing on top of him. However, Malgus prevented tons of rubble from crushing him. He then blew that heavy rubble apart and climbed out of the mountain of rubble to fight the Jedi. The duel was very intense. During the fight, Malgus sensed presence of another Jedi nearby even though this Jedi has masked his connection with the Force (But Malgus's telepathic abilities were amazing); he send the Jedi Master packing with a Force-augmented kick; used the Force to pull the hidden Jedi out from his place of hiding; and crushed his windpipe. The Jedi Master once again attempted to subdue Malgus but the latter Sith unleashed such a powerful blast of Force Lightning that couldn't be repelled by even two lightsabers and this burst of Force Lightning mortally wounded the Jedi Master who died from his injuries afterwards. This entire performance after Malgus was mortally wounded from his battle with Satele Shan; very impressive.

So now try to comprehend that how powerful Satele Shan would have become when she became the Grand Jedi Master. She could also perform shatterpoints like Mace and Luke, blow droids from inside-out like Luke, and even survive in space by using the Force (unlike anyone; if memory serves me correctly).

Revan:

Meetra's assessment of Revan:

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

Keep in mind that Meetra have contended with Sith Triumvirate. Still need any explanation?

About Darth Sion;

This left him in eternal pain, his broken body held together only by his hatred and power of the dark side. Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill, because his mastery over his own body granted him supernatural vitality. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

&

Kriea confronted Darth Sion in order to ensure that Exile would be able to escape. She barely survived the encounter, in which she lost the use of one hand. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

About Darth Traya;

After the Jedi Exile traveled to Onderon and defeated General Vaklu, Kriea realized her "pupil" was growing in strength and would become a threat to her truimverate of power. She tried to kill her on Dantoonie but fled. After the deaths of Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya was the only surviving member of her Order, and she lost her life in her final showdown with the Jedi Exile. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

Keep in mind that Darth Traya WTFpwned those 3 Jedi Masters who attempted to punish Meetra Surik after the Jedi Civil War.

Lord Scourge, was an expert swordsman, and matched Meetra Surik in strength. This was apparent from his accomplishments as he had killed hundreds of Force-wielders during his life-time. He could cipher energies from (organic) opponents to fuel his own power during his duels.

Both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik, depite being FAR ABOVE AVERAGE, stood no chance against an extraordinarily powerful Force-wielder; Darth Nyriss (who was plotting to overthrow the Sith Emperor). And when Darth Nryiss engaged Revan in combat; she was destroyed. This shows how powerful Revan was (Champion of the Jedi Order); able to blitz through entire armies; being able to draw power from both the light and dark sides of the Force simultaneously; handling heavy objects like fodder; and vice versa.

Bro, you have no clue of what you are talking about. Yoda and Mace are the only two Jedi from PT era who can contend with Revan and Satele. Others cannot regardless of all the verbal fellatos.

Originally posted by Dolos
They just never demonstrated mastery of Tutaminis or Force heal,
You are implying that Revan and Satele never demonstrated these abilities?

Originally posted by Dolos
yet fodder Jedi of the CW demonstrated Force heal in the novels
Genius, every Jedi learns Tutaminis and many also learn Force heal. However, it is not necessary for every Jedi to become proficient in these abilities; only the wisest and most powerful among the Jedi have managed to gain proficiency in these abilities in history.

Dooku, Revan and Yoda could absorb and deflect Sith powers such as Force Lightning with bare hands. Revan specially tanked an extremely lethal blast of Force Lightning from Darth Nyriss with bare hands as if it was nothing. He is apparently most proficient in Tutaminis among these 3 individuals.

Satele was also so proficient in Tutaminis that she prevented a lightsaber penetration in to her body with her bare hands. No one has demonstrated this feat thus far, if memory serves me correctly. Gallen was once wrongly suggested to have done so but TFU novel disproved this hypothesis.

As far as Jedi Healing techniques are concerned; Revan was so proficient in these abilities that he could heal severe injuries with the Force without the need of medical attention. I don't know much about Satele in this regard.

Originally posted by Dolos
and many other Force powers never demonstrated in the novelizations or films in the cartoon and animated series on top of the novels and games from that era.
TOR/Ancient era lore have arguably revealed greatest variety of Force powers in Star Wars history. Do not be naive.

Originally posted by Dolos
Now you're exaggerating his feat, it was not an army, it was a small contingent, no super weapon was soloed either, Revan had help from entire battle cruisers with the Star Forge.
Genius, I (correctly) do not consider game-mechanics as valid arguments. I rely on cut-scenes and comments which are among the true canon aspects of the games.

In a cut-scene; a Sith Commander stationed on the Star Forge pointed out that Revan destroyed the entire army of the Star Forge's battle droids. Afterwards, Malak ordered the Sith Commander to send huge number of Sith forces stationed on the Star Forge towards Revan.

Originally posted by Dolos
Malak would be fodder compared to Dooku or Windu.


I would refrain from making these kinds of conclusions in the absence of canonized depiction of final duel between Revan and Malak.

It was stated in the official databank that Malak had grown in power to such a degree by this time that he was "nearly unstoppable" during this event.

Also, Drew (The mastermind behind KoTOR 1) hinted in one of his newsletters that this duel was very intense. Imagine.

Prior to this event, Malak single-handedly fought the trio of Revan, Bastilla and Carth onboard his flagship Leviathan; and not just survived but also imprisoned Bastilla. During this fight, Malak easily countered Carth's firing from close-distance; stunned both him and Bastilla with the Force to take on Revan; immobilized Revan with his Force powers on two occasions during this duel; defended against a Saber Throw attack from Bastilla; and subdued her in combat in the end. Very impressive.

Originally posted by Dolos
As far as prequels are concerned, you can write anything new made off by a statement like "the strongest in history." Trust me, the feats will continue to become more impressive. Doesn't mean whoever performs them is stronger. In fact, I would NOT even consider feats when comparing Anakin (strongest Force sensitive in history), Sidious (strongest Sith Lord in history), and Yoda (Strongest Jedi in history), because it wouldn't make sense to do so.
Genius, power is not everything. Sidious, despite his power, have been bested in some of his fights. What does this suggests to you?

Another good example which suggests that power is not everything: Exar Kun's spirit WTFpwned Luke when the two met on Yavin IV. It took all of Luke's students to save him and destroy Exar Kun's spirit. This is part of NJO lore, I presume.

Sidious > Exar Kun (Correct?)

Unless disparity is great; power alone is not the deciding factor. Talents can make difference.

Also, you have jumped to conclusions without giving attention to the recent picture.

Conflicting promotions have emerged within Star Wars lore about the strongest practitioners of the light and dark sides; two factions are in competition now; Ancient and RO2.

Ancient Camp:

Marka Ragnos is the first character to be promoted from this camp; but only in one source, if I recall correctly. Afterwards, as the lore has been further expanded, Vitiate is now being promoted as the strongest Sith Lord ever from this camp; stated to have surpassed all ancient Sith Lords in power in Star Wars The Old Republic Revan and touted as the strongest Sith Lord ever in Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia. To further cement Vitiate's reputation, many exceptionally powerful Force-wielders have been depicted, serving him in his Empire.

KoTOR 2 also attempted to glorify the ancients and introduced to us the mysterious Darth Nihilus who has pushed boundaries with his titanic feats.

I think that Tulak Hord is also getting some sort of push. But Vitiate is getting significant promotion thus far.

RO2 Camp:

From the RO2 camp; Sidious is the first Sith Lord to get significant promotion. And recently Plagueis got some push on the same lines.

----------------

Similar is the situation among the Jedi:-

- Revan (Recently touted as the greatest champion of the Jedi Order)
- Satele (Promotion under progress)
- Hero of Tython (Expectedly will get Luke like push)

----------------

So we can note that several authors are competing with each other in this aspect. And Lucas Arts is allowing this to happen. Star Wars will be boring without creative liberties.

Therefore, caution is adviced.

A proper continuity based Star Wars literature does not exists to date unfortunately. I suggest that we adopt wait and see policy; much can change in the future. Now that Disney is getting involved; new developments will be more interesting.

Originally posted by Dolos
Why do you think that is? Yoda couldn't possibly be stronger than Luke Skywalker could he? Although I would argue that by the LOTF era Luke had surpassed Yoda as a master of the Light Side.
This is not my opinion. Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia promotes Yoda as the strongest practitioner of the light side but nothing of this sort has been stated for Luke. Even though this source contains information about Luke (up till LOTF part, if I recall correctly). Also, keep in mind that some of the most impressive feats of Luke are in DE and NJO literature.

Also, Gallen, who is almost worshipped by some in terms of power, is only stated to be a powerful Force-wielder in this source.

I think that Lucas Arts staff is biased towards Sidious and Yoda. Very unfortunate, if true.

Though what puzzles me is that Bane and Revan almost got entry in the Ghosts of Mortis episode from among all of the EU characters.

Originally posted by Dolos
And just wank whatever era is more recent in Star Wars mythology? It's simply not true to claim the PT era doesn't have over a thousand years worth of knowledge TOR and access to a far more extensive array of Force powers as well as more overall Jedi in number and more powerful Jedi AND Sith (RO2), when it's stated to have these things. Feats aside.
Actually, the story has progressed in such a manner, that several times, secrets of the Jedi and Sith have been lost/destroyed due to conflicts/wars. Recovery efforts have been made but lost knowledge from both camps have not been fully recovered, if I recall correctly or so it seems.

Also, their is no hard and fast rule that Jedi and Sith were becoming more powerful with passage of time. Power fluctated in both camps from era to era.

Originally posted by Dolos
His knowledge helped one Sith out, Bane. Bane's study wasn't nearly as thorough as Plagueis' anyway, who knew of Vitiate and Revan and everything else in history, and practiced these teachings.
Revan's teachings set the stage for RO2; Bane just happened to be a powerful and talented individual, who could comprehend Revan's teachings and put them to good use. Bane eventually set the stage for downfall of the Jedi a 1000 years later by his actions. The rest is detail.

Revan knew so much stuff that even the Sith Archives in Korriban did not contained as much information during Bane's time. No wonder, Revan's command of the Force was considered to be exceptional by his peers.

Of-course, Vitiate would have been well-known, as he has history with the Jedi. However, it isn't proved that his knowledge was fully known as well. Plagueis acknowledged that Vitiate was the only Sith Lord to come close to achieving true immortality. But Plagueis started his own experiment in this regard. Heck, Plagueis rejected the notion of Force Ghosts; very strange for a Sith Lord of such repute.

Yes, Sidious, attempted to uncover some lost information.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yeah, he's stronger than Maul, weaker in the Force than Vader, and his powers when compared to Dooku are unknown.
Sorry. Revan is (logically) above these individuals by a noticeable margin - power/talents/knowledge wise. See my explanation above.

Continued.......

Both Dooku and Vader are immensely overhyped. Yoda would have easily killed Dooku, if he had really tried, but his good nature prevented him from doing so.

Vader have some impressive feats. However, he is one of the most deeply explored characters of Star Wars as well.

Originally posted by Dolos
Nothing has changed, the works he sourced still exist and TOR is HISTORY to these works, everything added in TOR builds upon PT Force users, nothing more.
You have no idea of continuity issues in Star Wars.

Do me a favor; do no try to make so much sense of Star Wars. You will almost suffer a headache. Just enjoy it.

Originally posted by Dolos
You can use it as a playboy magazine for all I care, I have wookieepedia, which is the entire literature summarized for my convenience.


This made my day.

Originally posted by Dolos
He was until DE.
Plagueis would be second to Sidious in RO2 logically. Not in history.

Originally posted by Dolos
How about no.
How about you do?

This whole power thing is good for fanboyism. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Dolos
Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.
I know. Another reason that why it is so difficult to make sense of Star Wars.

I still cannot make sense of what has been depicted in ROTS.

Originally posted by Dolos
His powers were mainly being concentrated on the Force Storm. A power which requires far more concentration for a single Sith Lord than the ritual on Nathema or the Sith Supernova Naga Sadow generated, though it requires less time and preparation than the two other rituals. But it can't just be created instantly like you claim it was, Palpatine must have been working on that hours before that duel even began.
Please refrain from making bold claims like these.

It took 10 days to prepare for the destruction of Nathema.

It is unclear that how much time it took Nihilus to prepare to destroy Katarr.

Originally posted by Dolos
No, Windu being stronger in the Force than Revan and a more powerful overall master of Lightsaber combat allowed him to go toe-to-toe with a Sidious who was rapidly losing his stamina in the Force.


Sidious was blurry in terms of speed throughout this duel until Mace found a shatterpoint and exploited it to gain advantage.

And Mace is not stronger then Revan. No source suggests this. However, both Mace and Revan have been promoted as Champions of the Jedi Order recently.

Originally posted by Dolos
Luke was destroying AT-ATs and the Emperor's Sith Executes with mere hand gestures. I would go as far as to say he was Windu's equal by DE. He was stronger in the Force than most Jedi, obviously with more potential than Sidious, and he had six years of training
(with far more access to Jedi knowledge) on his father by ROTS.
Luke knocked-out one AT-AT after major effort (He recalled Yoda's lecture during this event). Also, Luke didn't destroy any Ships with the Force, if I recall correctly. Yes, Luke, by DE, had grown considerably in power. This, I agree with.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yet he was pushed back immediately, expending every ounce of his energy to keep up with Sidious, before they both plateaus, and Windu physically overpowered Sidious after finding an opening through his shatterpoint vision. Windu was in his prime, Sidious was far from his prime, that's why Windu wouldn't have won if Sidious had started fresh.
This duel shows that Sidious isn't unstoppable. Power isn't everything. Talents also matter, if power disparity isn't huge.

Originally posted by Dolos
He had enough to wear Windu out, and that's exactly what he did, using up everything he had left.
No comments.

That's a lot of information for me to comment on, I will explain that I can understand your power vs disparity argument. And I believe Vitiate and Nihilus had the gap on power on a direct combat level, and Nihilus' abilities were comparable to the Overlords like Son and Father, instantly Force draining entire worlds with prodigious efficiency. I noticed this with Vitiate's instantaneous development and use of advanced Force powers that the likes of Darth Sidious wouldn't seem capable of a decade ago before even reaching his teen years, and without training. That makes Luke's instant learning look like a joke. Then you have Vitiate using only Arcane Magic Sith powers to make a Jedi (Revan) comparable to CW Windu and NJO Luke look like jokes.

Then you have Sidious being his name-sake per Sith Powers when compared to Vitiate. His methods were insidious, he was more powerful than his abilities on direct combat and control of the Force could possibly suggest. Doing things like creating the Dark Side wormhole and influencing the minds of billions, feeding off them slowly over time to fuel his vile experiments as he created monsters like the Chysalide Rancors and Executers comparable in power to Darth Vader by increasing their Force sensitivity and bestowing upon them Dark knowledge and power. Also implementing knowledge which wasn't thoroughly studied by his master Plagueis and Tenebrous, which could possibly have been apprehended upon conquering and gaining use to all information spanning the billions of worlds under Republic AKA Imperial control...powers such as essence transfer, mind domination, Force drain, Dark Side wormhole, seemingly above the Emperor's capacity pre--DE.

So perhaps they are both stronger than one another at the same time...and knowledge was lost and gained, and different. Power vs Disparity...there's a certain complexity to it, how Vader can beat Dooku and lose to Obi-wan, how mercenaries, assassins and troopers can take out powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords.

Nicely put, Dolos. Thanks.

UPDATE:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A proper continuity based Star Wars literature does not exists to date unfortunately. I suggest that we adopt wait and see policy; much can change in the future. Now that Disney is getting involved; new developments will be more interesting.
Found a source recently:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Readers-Companion-Star/dp/0345511190

This book has been written in real-world perspective. No Sith Lord has been declared most powerful in history/ever in this book.

Vitiate has been officially recognized to have accomplished immortality.

-----------------

EVIL LAUGH

Originally posted by Dolos
Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.
First time, Palpatine was at a Dark Side nexus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Both Dooku and Vader are immensely overhyped.

Not really. Dooku was not only one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history but an even more powerful Sith Lord.

Vader was likely even more powerful than Count Dooku. (Or at least on par with him in an all out).


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda would have easily killed Dooku,

What do you mean "would have"?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
if he had really tried, but his good nature prevented him from doing so.



Where are you getting all this from, that he didn't really try??

There would be nothing good about his nature if that were true. All that would prove is he had a very reckless and selfish nature considering what was at stake.

Yoda would beat Dooku in a fight to the finish. No doubt. But it would not be with any kind of ease as Proven in AOTC.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
First time, Palpatine was at a Dark Side nexus.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Dooku was not only one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history but an even more powerful Sith Lord.
Yes, they are. I see this hype almost everywhere.

As an example: in SWTOR official forum, a debate about Sith Lords took place in which many suggested that no EU character one could be a match for Vader let alone Sidious. Fortunately, one member gave the example of Gallen to prove that Vader is not all-powerful. The entire debate was filled with sickening arguments and misconceptions.

People literally worship Vader and think that he is an all-powerful being who cannot be challenged by any one else when Star Wars lore itself proves otherwise. And Lucas never intended Vader to be projected like a Force-God but rather a man with flaws.

Dooku is a well-defined character but also overhyped. We have now seen young Jedi Knights in EU lore matching or surpassing Dooku's combat prowess. Star Wars is evolving but mindsets of some are not.

Dooku maybe held in high esteem by PT era Council but this doesn't proves that he is among the ELITE. Not any more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader was likely even more powerful than Count Dooku. (Or at least on par with him in an all out).
Interesting point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What do you mean "would have"?
Yoda never wanted to kill Dooku. He respected him so much.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where are you getting all this from, that he didn't really try??
No, Yoda didn't really tried.

Recheck Yoda's actions in the battle of Geonosis. Yoda purely adopted defensive posture when Dooku used his Force powers on him. Afterwards, when Yoda got the opportunity to disarm Dooku in a lightsaber duel, Dooku found an opportunity to prevent Yoda from doing so by making Anakin and Obi-Wan vulnerable with his Force powers and Yoda attended to that.

Also, you remember what Yoda said to Dooku during this fight?

"Much to learn you still have."

This is sufficient hint that Yoda's understanding of the Force was vastly superior to that of Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There would be nothing good about his nature if that were true. All that would prove is he had a very reckless and selfish nature considering what was at stake.
What? Yoda had reckless and selfish nature? Any basis for this absurd assumption?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda would beat Dooku in a fight to the finish. No doubt. But it would not be with any kind of ease as Proven in AOTC.
AOTC proves nothing. Yoda would have subdued Dooku with his Force powers without much difficulty, if he wanted to. But he did not try.

Try to understand that both Sidious and Yoda were much stronger then Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, they are. I see this hype almost everywhere.

As an example: in SWTOR official forum, a debate about Sith Lords took place in which many suggested that no EU character one could be a match for Vader let alone Sidious. Fortunately, one member gave the example of Gallen to prove that Vader is not all-powerful. The entire debate was filled with sickening arguments and misconceptions.

People literally worship Vader and think that he is an all-powerful being who cannot be challenged by any one else when Star Wars lore itself proves otherwise. And Lucas never intended Vader to be projected like a Force-God but rather a man with flaws.

Wow, really? The guy who got his ass kicked by his poorly-trained son? Who died to a few seconds of Sidious' lightning?

This is why Tempest is overly harsh on you. You're not a fall-out idiot imo.

Star Wars Insider #62 attributes Luke's success against Vader to being an extraordinarily quick study:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



Yoda never wanted to kill Dooku. He respected him so much.

Yeah sure. Yoda has nothing but respect for Jedi turned Sith Lords.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, Yoda didn't really tried.

I've heard this a lot from people in this forum, but it all comes from pure speculation, with nothing concrete to back it up at all.

They fought. Yoda won, but didn't stomp with any kind ease. That's what happened.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Recheck Yoda's actions in the battle of Geonosis. Yoda purely adopted defensive posture when Dooku used his Force powers on him.

Yeah so, he was on the defense. The fact that he deflected a shot back at Dooku's face shows he was willing to hurt him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Afterwards, when Yoda got the opportunity to disarm Dooku in a lightsaber duel, Dooku found an opportunity to prevent Yoda from doing so by making Anakin and Obi-Wan vulnerable with his Force powers and Yoda attended to that.

Yeah after an intense Lightsaber battle Dooku fled. I'm not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, you remember what Yoda said to Dooku during this fight?

"Much to learn you still have."

This is sufficient hint that Yoda's understanding of the Force was vastly superior to that of Dooku.

He intimidated him in battle. What does Yoda have to say about Dooku's abilities when he's not around? Oh that right.. That Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student," and "MOST LEARNED in the ways of the Force."

Oh and that fighting Dooku was good enough to put his Fencing skills in shape for a good long while. Clearly not someone he thought was an easy fight.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What? Yoda had reckless and selfish nature? Any basis for this absurd assumption?

Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!

And then he lectures Obi-Wan on killing Anakin? So what Yoda's a hypocrite now? Please.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
AOTC proves nothing.

Lol. Yeah it's only a G-Canon source which showed them fight. What kind of proof is that?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda would have subdued Dooku with his Force powers without much difficulty, if he wanted to. But he did not try.


Seriously your making Yoda out to be a complete Douchebag.

It's fairly obvious when one compares Yoda's fight with Dooku that he was far less aggressive with the Count than with the Emperor in ROTS.

That said, the idea that it would be a curbstomp or that Dooku isn't one of history's strongest Sith Lords is... silly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!

This actually happened with Windu btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This actually happened with Windu btw.

What happened?

That Windu didn't kill Dooku from behind? Well yeah it's not usually a Jedi's opening move especially on a former Jedi. Also Windu had serious doubts that Dooku had turned to the Dark Side.

Even Yoda only knew for sure after he confronted him, "Powerful you have become Dooku, The Darkside I sense in you."

In Shatterpoint Windu reveals that he saw the Clone Wars occurring in Dooku's shatterpoints and that he could have stopped it if he just stabbed him on the coliseum balcony. But he hesitated because it was Dooku and the universe burned for it.

^ Yeah I know. And he regretted that. Because it was clearly a mistake.

Bear in mind his hesitation was before the murder of hundreds of Jedi and in an opportunity to strike a former friend him from behind.

I'm sure Mace/Yoda must have "respected" and been friends with many of those murdered Jedi enough to want to bring justice to the Count.

Nephthys's point is that their close relationship with Dooku frustrated their efforts to kill him. It's a resonant point that is reflected throughout their various confrontations in the films and EU.

Yoda definitely did not "go all out" on Dooku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nephthys's point is that their close relationship with Dooku frustrated their efforts to kill him. It's a resonant point that is reflected throughout their various confrontations in the films and EU.

Yoda definitely did not "go all out" on Dooku.

I can see that. After all he seemed to be attempting to stop Dooku escaping.

But I get frustrated when people take Yoda's somewhat holding back to the extreme and make out Yoda could have easily and completely stomped him anytime he wanted, just chose not to.

That not only makes Yoda seem like an idiot but also seems to be an attempt to completely nullify the Count's greatest feat which is going toe to toe with Yoda.

There is no reason to assume that it would have been an "easy" task. That idea is retarded at best, and is being propagated only for the purpose of lowballing Dooku.

Regardless, he has plenty of awesome feats and fights.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In Shatterpoint Windu reveals that he saw the Clone Wars occurring in Dooku's shatterpoints and that he could have stopped it if he just stabbed him on the coliseum balcony. But he hesitated because it was Dooku and the universe burned for it.

Only half-joking here, but Windu must have really loved Dooku.

In one fashion or another.

Almost how Anakin would knowingly, and regrettably attempt to sacrifice countless lives, in the process to save Padme.

Strangely, you could almost say that Windu's passion, actually got the better of him?

I wonder if this points out a human flaw in him - or if Vapaad had something to do with it. Hmm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah sure. Yoda has nothing but respect for Jedi turned Sith Lords.
Yoda wanted to turn Dooku back to light.

Yoda held back during his confrontation with Dooku on Geonosis and attempted to reason with Dooku on Vjun.

Try to comprehend.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've heard this a lot from people in this forum, but it all comes from pure speculation, with nothing concrete to back it up at all.

They fought. Yoda won, but didn't stomp with any kind ease. That's what happened.
Yoda didn't go all-out on Dooku with his Force powers. He didn't attempt to use the surroundings to his advantage either. This is why.

In contrast, Dooku did exactly the opposite.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah so, he was on the defense. The fact that he deflected a shot back at Dooku's face shows he was willing to hurt him.
Yoda's intention was to discourage Dooku from using his Force powers. The strategy obviously worked.

Remember when Dooku initially threw parts of the stony ceiling on Yoda; the Jedi Master didn't hurl those stones back at Dooku in response?

Clearly, Yoda was restraining himself and was on the defensive.

Yes, when Dooku unleashed his Force Lightning on Yoda; the Jedi Master became a bit serious and deflected it back at him. However, Yoda knew that Dooku's Lightning would not kill its source upon contact. So it was a safe move.

The second move eventually convinced Dooku to stop using his Force powers on Yoda. Imagine! If Yoda had gone all-out?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah after an intense Lightsaber battle Dooku fled. I'm not sure what your point is.
Yes, Yoda did show Dooku that he was not on a vacation during this lightsaber duel. However, Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage and managed to escape.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He intimidated him in battle. What does Yoda have to say about Dooku's abilities when he's not around? Oh that right.. That Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student," and "MOST LEARNED in the ways of the Force."
It could be Dun Moch; but the point is that Yoda wasn't trying his best in this duel. If Yoda had gone all-out on Dooku; the latter would have stood no chance at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and that fighting Dooku was good enough to put his Fencing skills in shape for a good long while. Clearly not someone he thought was an easy fight.
Issue is that we see Dooku do everything in this fight to ensure his survival/victory.

- Dooku used his Force powers
- Dooku put his lightsaber skills to good use
- Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage

We didn't see Yoda doing all of this. We didn't see Yoda being interested in taking Dooku out early on. Of-course, power disparity between the two wasn't so great that I would use the word 'enormous'. Dooku is impressive IMO. However, Yoda had the capability to put him out of commission much quicker then the whole duel lasted. In short, Yoda is upper tier.

From real-world perspective; GL wanted to promote the character of Dooku and the strategy worked. The fight was depicted in such a manner that neither Yoda and nor Dooku looked weak.

However, Yoda was apparently noticeably stronger. This (intended) message was conveyed by in following manner:

1. Yoda commented that Dooku still had lot to learn.
2. Yoda showed restraint in this encounter.

Try to see through the glass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!
Clone Wars came as a surprise to many. And Dooku joined the separatists in secrecy. Mace came to know about Dooku's future plans but he did nothing either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then he lectures Obi-Wan on killing Anakin? So what Yoda's a hypocrite now? Please.
By that time; Yoda had finally realized the gravity of the threat posed by these Sith. Many Jedi died during the Clone Wars and this may have frustrated Yoda or something.

It is also possible that Dooku's beheading at the hands of Anakin was not appreciated by Yoda. So when Anakin turned Sith; Yoda decided that he shouldn't be shown mercy either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol. Yeah it's only a G-Canon source which showed them fight. What kind of proof is that?
See above.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seriously your making Yoda out to be a complete Douchebag.
Yoda was not without his flaws. He was wise and very powerful but he wasn't aggressive and/or a brilliant tactician.

Personally I think that Yoda didn't attack Dooku with the Force because of his personal philosophy not to use it aggressively, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

But then you have more than a few examples of him using it offensively, so maybe people just don't remember that quote too much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think that Yoda didn't attack Dooku with the Force because of his personal philosophy not to use it aggressively, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

But then you have more than a few examples of him using it offensively, so maybe people just don't remember that quote too much.
Good point.

He did go on the offensive when he felt the need to. Though, he is not aggressive, personality wise.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda wanted to turn Dooku back to light.
Yoda held back during his confrontation with Dooku on Geonosis and attempted to reason with Dooku on Vjun.
Try to comprehend.
Yoda didn't go all-out on Dooku with his Force powers. He didn't attempt to use the surroundings to his advantage either. This is why.
In contrast, Dooku did exactly the opposite.
Yoda's intention was to discourage Dooku from using his Force powers. The strategy obviously worked.
Remember when Dooku initially threw parts of the stony ceiling on Yoda; the Jedi Master didn't hurl those stones back at Dooku in response?
Clearly, Yoda was restraining himself and was on the defensive.
Yes, when Dooku unleashed his Force Lightning on Yoda; the Jedi Master became a bit serious and deflected it back at him. However, Yoda knew that Dooku's Lightning would not kill its source upon contact. So it was a safe move.
The second move eventually convinced Dooku to stop using his Force powers on Yoda. Imagine! If Yoda had gone all-out?
Yes, Yoda did show Dooku that he was not on a vacation during this lightsaber duel. However, Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage and managed to escape.
It could be Dun Moch; but the point is that Yoda wasn't trying his best in this duel. If Yoda had gone all-out on Dooku; the latter would have stood no chance at all.
Issue is that we see Dooku do everything in this fight to ensure his survival/victory.
- Dooku used his Force powers
- Dooku put his lightsaber skills to good use
- Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage
We didn't see Yoda doing all of this. We didn't see Yoda being interested in taking Dooku out early on. Of-course, power disparity between the two wasn't so great that I would use the word 'enormous'. Dooku is impressive IMO. However, Yoda had the capability to put him out of commission much quicker then the whole duel lasted. In short, Yoda is upper tier.
From real-world perspective; GL wanted to promote the character of Dooku and the strategy worked. The fight was depicted in such a manner that neither Yoda and nor Dooku looked weak.
However, Yoda was apparently noticeably stronger. This (intended) message was conveyed by in following manner:
1. Yoda commented that Dooku still had lot to learn.
2. Yoda showed restraint in this encounter.
Try to see through the glass.
Clone Wars came as a surprise to many. And Dooku joined the separatists in secrecy. Mace came to know about Dooku's future plans but he did nothing either.
By that time; Yoda had finally realized the gravity of the threat posed by these Sith. Many Jedi died during the Clone Wars and this may have frustrated Yoda or something.
It is also possible that Dooku's beheading at the hands of Anakin was not appreciated by Yoda. So when Anakin turned Sith; Yoda decided that he shouldn't be shown mercy either.
See above.
Yoda was not without his flaws. He was wise and very powerful but he wasn't aggressive and/or a brilliant tactician.


I probably shouldn't get involved - but I feel I must come to DARTH POWER's aid (the same as when Vader suddenly got involved in Palpatine's electrocution of Luke)

DARTH POWER brought up good points about Yoda's fight with Dooku.

I think I even at one point summed up some good thoughts on it:

Originally posted by Rookwood

I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.

The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.


http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Yodaexcuses_zpsf4e48951.jpg

Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.

Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.

It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.

The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.

(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.

Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.

According to Logic - IF Yoda cared about Billions of innocent women, children and babies (And we know he does.) then IF he could defeat Dooku, IF he could - then he could have inflicted a harmless cut on his leg (seen above) and save all the innocent people he cares about.

With no damage to Dooku.

But he couldn't defeat Dooku with that kind of ease.

DARTH POWER is essentially correct - Yoda would beat Dooku - but not within that time frame - and Yoda could not defeat Dooku in that particular foray.

Much Logic and Common Sense dictate, that Yoda had no reason not to deliver a harmless incapacitating blow, that would save the lives of billions of innocent children and babies.

That doesn't follow. We have ironclad proof that Windu made the same error in the arena and he later laments in Shatterpoint that his affection for Dooku blinded him to the danger he posed.

There's no reason to conclude Yoda would be any different.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That doesn't follow. We have ironclad proof that Windu made the same error in the arena and he later laments in Shatterpoint that his affection for Dooku blinded him to the danger he posed.

There's no reason to conclude Yoda would be any different.

I thought about that - but whereas Yoda could inflict a simple incapacitating cut with his blade and be done with it - AotC Mace Windu would not have what it would take to defeat Dooku like that.

He would likely lose. Whereas for Yoda, it's the exact opposite.

So Windu's situation is actually somewhat moot.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I thought about that - but whereas Yoda could inflict a simple incapacitating cut with his blade and be done with it - AotC Mace Windu would not have what it would take to defeat Dooku like that.

He would likely lose. Whereas for Yoda, it's the exact opposite.

So Windu's situation is actually somewhat moot.

It's really not when you consider that Windu had the element of complete surprise as an advantage. Based on what we see, Dooku didn't have the foggiest idea Windu was there. But rather than cut him down or inflict "a simple incapacitating cut" or even point his blade at Dooku, Windu chose to threaten not only a far less dangerous man, but one for whom he had no affection.

Shatterpoint makes an explicit issue of this: Windu's decision damned the galaxy to war and left billions to die. Jedi make bad decisions with moral repercussions often, even at critical moments. There is no reason to think that Yoda, whose affection for Dooku in all likelihood ran considerably deeper (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, anyone?), would not come into play.

Anything to the contrary is a weak argument and falsely presumes Jedi are incapable of boneheaded decisions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's really not when you consider that Windu had the element of complete surprise as an advantage. Based on what we see, Dooku didn't have the foggiest idea Windu was there. But rather than cut him down or inflict "a simple incapacitating cut" or even point his blade at Dooku, Windu chose to threaten not only a far less dangerous man, but one for whom he had no affection.

Shatterpoint makes an explicit issue of this: Windu's decision damned the galaxy to war and left billions to die. Jedi make bad decisions with moral repercussions often, even at critical moments. There is no reason to think that Yoda, whose affection for Dooku in all likelihood ran considerably deeper (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, anyone?), would not come into play.

Anything to the contrary is a weak argument and falsely presumes Jedi are incapable of boneheaded decisions.

If what Windu felt was quite literal - why not inflict an incapacitating cut on the Count?

And what purpose would inflicting an incapacitating cut serve?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
And what purpose would inflicting an incapacitating cut serve? To, you know... incapacitate him...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To, you know... incapacitate him...

Thank you.

Perhaps I made an error though - I should have explained better.

Thank you, though.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
And what purpose would inflicting an incapacitating cut serve?

I apologize for not elaborating.

I meant, why not deliver an incapacitating cut, and then perhaps (if possible) capture the Count and escape with him/kill Jango afterwards and hold the incapacitated Count there.

Seems somewhat plausible.

Because there was a man with a flamethrower and two Super Battle Droids closing in on him from behind?

He was supposed to:

Duel Dooku, while dodging Jangos' flamethrower, while deflecting blaster fire from their droid bodyguards?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Because there was a man with a flamethrower and two Super Battle Droids closing in on him from behind?

He was supposed to:

Duel Dooku, while dodging Jangos' flamethrower, while deflecting blaster fire from their droid bodyguards?

I meant, perhaps delivering an incapacitating cut to Dooku, on appearance, then going from there to either stab Jango - or, use TK to turn Jango's flames back on himself (Kenobi did a similiar feat during the Clone Wars) and then dispatch the two Battle Droids, which shouldn't be difficult, given that Mace is well-rested and highly skilled and powerful at this point.