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can they stop it?

Been done. On his own against all the cosmics of Marvel he gets stomped.

TOAA blinks and Marvel wins.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
TOAA blinks and Marvel wins.

Co-signed

When has TOAA ever got involved in any conflict?

Marvel universe wins because of its cosmics.

TOAA tells LT to blink. then antimonitor is gone

where have you been when we revealed the LT's lack of any real power, no one in the MU can stop the anti-monitor because not even the spectre could who is above all abstracts and even though the PF is involved he can just kill there avatars there is no way MU can servive if armies of supermen and the like couldnt do it.

Do you realize that you compared armies of supermen to high cosmics?? Such as Galactus, Eternity, Death, Oblivion and etc?? That was a daft thing to say.....

A lot of DC's high cosmics didn't get into the battle because it's not their place to. Most of them have specific roles in the universe, and would be out of their jurisdiction to go into saving it. Same would probably happen in Marvel. If Spectre would have showed up alongside The Lords of Order and Chaos, the gods, the New Gods, the Quintessence. Etc, it probably would have been a landslide.

Barring them, then universe probably gets destroyed.

Originally posted by Juntai
A lot of DC's high cosmics didn't get into the battle because it's not their place to. Most of them have specific roles in the universe, and would be out of their jurisdiction to go into saving it. Same would probably happen in Marvel. If Spectre would have showed up alongside The Lords of Order and Chaos, the gods, the New Gods, the Quintessence. Etc, it probably would have been a landslide.

Barring them, then universe probably gets destroyed.

Unlike Dc it seems, Marvels cosmics do actually get involved to protect their place of residence. Anti-Monitor would get totalled.

the thing i m not sure about is the anti-mon was not just fight dc he was fighting pre-crisis DC..and that a big power deff in my book.. but then again thats just my opinion

Originally posted by supremthor
the thing i m not sure about is the anti-mon was not just fight dc he was fighting pre-crisis DC..and that a big power deff in my book.. but then again thats just my opinion True.. and not only that... multiple universes at once.. Severl versions of various characters there.

spectre is enough to total the mu

Originally posted by Mider
spectre is enough to total the mu not really LT can fight him to a standstill.

nah he cant galactic storm and i proved that already.

Galactus could possibly deal with Anti-monitor, just simply float in and disassemble all of his molecules.

Originally posted by Juntai
True.. and not only that... multiple universes at once.. Severl versions of various characters there.

And yet no comparison to Marvels cosmics taking him on.

Mider can i say something without you taking it the wrong way??
You seem like a DC fan at heart. But why does your logic not work from a somewhat objective stance?
LT has low showings, but so does Spectre. DOV had him battling a Captain Marvel who was juiced up on magic, approaching a universal level of power......A rather low showing for someone shown holding the MULTIVERSE in their hands.
When the two are seen to be relatively equal, referring to LT and Spectre, why does your cord of dissonance come in??
And the anti-monitor would lose in Marvel, just like he would've lost sooner in DC if their true cosmics had gotten involved.
He lost to various Supermen. Much more powerful than their current counterparts, but back then, everybody was, so it was the norm.
Phoenix alone would rape him.
What makes you think that an army of supermen and Darkseid >>>>Phoenix, and other cosmics?? If the Promethian, and Millenium giants had deigned to intervene, Anti-monitor would've have lost that much sooner.
I know you are a DC loyalist, and i am as well to a point, but don't be pig headed. It's not a good look.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Anti-Monitor would get totalled.

Agreed!

Originally posted by UniOmni
Mider can i say something without you taking it the wrong way??
You seem like a DC fan at heart. But why does your logic not work from a somewhat objective stance?
LT has low showings, but so does Spectre. DOV had him battling a Captain Marvel who was juiced up on magic, approaching a universal level of power......A rather low showing for someone shown holding the MULTIVERSE in their hands.
When the two are seen to be relatively equal, referring to LT and Spectre, why does your cord of dissonance come in??
And the anti-monitor would lose in Marvel, just like he would've lost sooner in DC if their true cosmics had gotten involved.
He lost to various Supermen. Much more powerful than their current counterparts, but back then, everybody was, so it was the norm.
Phoenix alone would rape him.
What makes you think that an army of supermen and Darkseid >>>>Phoenix, and other cosmics?? If the Promethian, and Millenium giants had deigned to intervene, Anti-monitor would've have lost that much sooner.
I know you are a DC loyalist, and i am as well to a point, but don't be pig headed. It's not a good look. It was more than just them, the sentinals of magic were there, Nabu was there, as he was in control when in Kent Nelson's body. There was several universes of people in the fight. Not a handful of Supermen and Darkseid. Anti-monitor was taking them on at the same time, and was still winning and probably would have, had Spectre not showed up. And even still, he's the starry hand at the beginning of the universe. He looped the beginning and the end of time, created entropy. Etc.


Spectre and LT are seen to be equal because of roll as protectors of their multiverse/universe/whatever. Their feats show differently though. You can consider yourself Micheal Jordan's equal in basketball, because you both play the same position, but when the numbers are added up on paper....


Captain Marvel wasn't just reaching a 'universal level' of power, or if you knew what you were saying, it was worded kinda bad to make Spectre seem low. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know....Anyone drawing the kind of power Captain Marvel was, could probably destroy a universe relatively easily if they directed it to do so. He was drawing from entire panthons of gods, lords of order and chaos..many of the most powerful mages in existance, and every living being on the planet, and then some... and was stated to be still expanding through the whole fight, he was just getting stronger and stronger. He was maxing out, and Spectre though, I agree still wasn't in top form... but did well considering. But that's storytelling. Still mostly PIS though, considering he was able to shut off Shazam's powers on other occasions, such as Black Adam, who he just dropped into human form in a second in the JSA Black Vengeance series. And Shazam's lightning power is what was the conduit for all that power.

Originally posted by Juntai
It was more than just them, the sentinals of magic were there, Nabu was there, as he was in control when in Kent Nelson's body. There was several universes of people in the fight. Not a handful of Supermen and Darkseid. Anti-monitor was taking them on at the same time, and was still winning and probably would have, had Spectre not showed up. And even still, he's the starry hand at the beginning of the universe. He looped the beginning and the end of time, created entropy. Etc.



There must have been about 40 to 50 heroes maybe more. They do not equate to 20 or or so cosmic beings. It would be a landslide victory in Marvels favour. Debatably powers like Phoenix, HOTU even the IG could take him singlehandedly.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There must have been about 40 to 50 heroes maybe more. They do not equate to 20 or or so cosmic beings. It would be a landslide victory in Marvels favour. Debatably powers like Phoenix, HOTU even the IG could take him singlehandedly. I didn't argue that.
In fact, in my original post, I said 'barring those types' antimonitor would win. I was just clearing up what he was talking about with that last post.

With them, they'd probably win, just as DC probably would have had a much easier time.

how is that possible if whole universes couldnt stop him i dont think that the DCU is weaker then the MU and spectre losing to him is a big point in his corner since all those cosmics wouldnt hold a candle to spectre.

I don't want to seem contrived, but it was stated that the physical laws in both universe's were different.The Antimonitor in the Marvel Universe may be as weak as The Flash is or The Infinity Gautlet is when it's in The DC Universe.. I mean isn't The Antimonitor in general,weaker than the energy that makes up the Speedforce? I'm not talking about the Flash, just the forces at play. At any rate I don't see how the Marvel Heros of earth except for Jean Grey in her Dark Phoenix mode could stop this guy... unless of course, The Sentry is as powerful as he is said to be. This is all assuming that the Antimonitor doesn't show up and become the Easter Bunny.

we dont usually go on things like that for forum battles its kinda worthless if we wanna do crossover battles then.

Korvac

Big G

Thanos w/serious prep


they could take this..

Living Tribunal could destroy him, but wouldn't. He has backed out of threats that would end up doing more damage if he got into a conflict.

Celestials
Galactus
Kubik
Agamotto
InBetweener
Molecule Man

LT cant do crap and if you can prove he can please do all those guys are still below spectre they'd lose he destroyed whole universes its like killing eternity over and over

LT=Spectre the have same role.

LT is more powerful than Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet.
He proved it, and forced Adam to disasseble the gauntlet.
So, we can start there, and figure he is even more powerfult than that.

how did he prove it he said hay give it up or our fight will just cause the universe to be destroyed even warlock put limitations on the mind gem so it cant be used fully is Warlock as strong as LT so no thats not proof and it doesnt matter if thats his role he sucks at it

But here's the thing, Mider says that beings of this power level are not permitted to take part. Except maybe Molecule man... but he wouldn't be able to stop Mxy either... Mxy plays with reality, the only being I came up that could stop him over, and over again is The Beyonder, or other reality manipulators.... I wonder what would happen if The Beyonder decided to visit the DC Universe, and threaten all life... who then would stop him?

they can take power but they wont win we already had a spectre VS MU, and i believe it was concluded MU dies, no one could stop the Spectre not even LT its bee debated over and over and over to death, nope the cosmics wont make one diffrence

whoops this is the wrong thread sorry I was eating and lost touch with reality! LOL what I wrote about was for something entirely different.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
But here's the thing, Mider says that beings of this power level are not permitted to take part. Except maybe Molecule man... but he wouldn't be able to stop Mxy either... Mxy plays with reality, the only being I came up that could stop him over, and over again is The Beyonder, or other reality manipulators.... I wonder what would happen if The Beyonder decided to visit the DC Universe, and threaten all life... who then would stop him?

Kubik, Korvac, InBetweener, Galactus/Full Power, Franklin Richards, Exitar.

Originally posted by Juntai
It was more than just them, the sentinals of magic were there, Nabu was there, as he was in control when in Kent Nelson's body. There was several universes of people in the fight. Not a handful of Supermen and Darkseid. Anti-monitor was taking them on at the same time, and was still winning and probably would have, had Spectre not showed up. And even still, he's the starry hand at the beginning of the universe. He looped the beginning and the end of time, created entropy. Etc.


Spectre and LT are seen to be equal because of roll as protectors of their multiverse/universe/whatever. Their feats show differently though. You can consider yourself Micheal Jordan's equal in basketball, because you both play the same position, but when the numbers are added up on paper....


Captain Marvel wasn't just reaching a 'universal level' of power, or if you knew what you were saying, it was worded kinda bad to make Spectre seem low. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know....Anyone drawing the kind of power Captain Marvel was, could probably destroy a universe relatively easily if they directed it to do so. He was drawing from entire panthons of gods, lords of order and chaos..many of the most powerful mages in existance, and every living being on the planet, and then some... and was stated to be still expanding through the whole fight, he was just getting stronger and stronger. He was maxing out, and Spectre though, I agree still wasn't in top form... but did well considering. But that's storytelling. Still mostly PIS though, considering he was able to shut off Shazam's powers on other occasions, such as Black Adam, who he just dropped into human form in a second in the JSA Black Vengeance series. And Shazam's lightning power is what was the conduit for all that power.

So the Anti-Monitor created Entropy??? No, Entropy was already there. Krona looked beyond the DC Universe and saw the hand of The Infinite/The Presence/Yhwh, and in doing so released Entropy/Imperiex into the Universe/Creation. This shortens the Universe by 1 billion years, and someday Imperiex Prime will destroy the Universe again

Probably take a Eternity powered being to beat the Anti-Monitor. he was destroying many galaxies/universe's.

Dude, you are probably the biggest Imperiex fan that i have ever seen. Will you please try to understand that Imperiex Prime hasn't done anything to indicate he's entrophy. If it wasn't for that largely inconsistent Secret files, no one would even try to put him anywhere near a low level abstract. His only saving grace is that the protector of the universe, Kismet jobs to him. Destroy the previous universe with what? Destroying a measly planet thereby releasing a domino effect. That's crap writing. Anti-monitor has done more things with his right hand than that.

The fact that it shows in Supermans Biography Imperiex Prime IS Entropy's embodiment in the universe as well as the rest of the history that goes along with Imperiex, pretty much lays that to rest sixth. Yah i'll admit im a fan of his (and others) but u sure seem more like a fan of Galactus, seeing that you brought it up anyway! Why do people bring Galactus up when people talk about Imperiex?? Is it because someone else is brought into comic books that is more powerful then Galactus, and ppl get upset about it?? Kinda like with the Darkseid fanboys. Anti-Monitor had a hard time with Flash . Lifes all about learning something new everyday sixth, calm down

Dude, i hate Galactus. In fact, i cannot stand his pope sized hat and the fact that he jobs to people so much so when he's hungry. I just don't diss him through the matches though since he creates people like SS, Tyrant, Fallen One, Taa2, just to name a few with his own power and that commands lots of respect. I'm not saying Imperiex is helpless or anything, far from it. His blast has decimated Doomsday and reduced him to skeleton, a feat to itself since he evolved to grow immune after coming contact with Radiance against a level of energy output. As for imperiex, all i'm saying is that if he truly is indeed the embodiment of entrophy, he sure doesn't live up to his name.

But i'm sorry i got the wrong impression on you. Other specific loyal fans would immediately get pissed off when someone criticizes them or point out something they disagree with, so props to you.

Still, i gotta disagree with the Imperiex image you are projecting. Just so you know in future debates with me, it's nothing personal...it's just me having less life than others and trying my hand on debating

Doomsday never evolved over the imperiex blast, there was nothing left but bones. It was help from LexCorp that brought Doomsday back to life (helped regrow his skin eyes, hair etc). If LexCorp did not help Doomsday return he would still be dead. Kinda seems to me there is more into the Lex and Doomsday storyline then we know of

Don't see how he doesn't live up to his name. He was never meant to destroy the DC Universe at this point in time. He has already destroyed it 1 time that we know of, and has hinted around that he's destroyed it a few other times as well.

I know about doomsday not evolving from his blast by his lonesome(i told mider that some time ago). I'm saying radiance an energy being who blasted him with energy he evolved from. But it didn't help him against Imperiex own energy blast which possibly indicates that he doesn't totally evolve from a specific attack but just partially to a degree. I'm well aware of Lex' contribution for Doomsday's revival and where he ended up (apokolips).

The thing with those universe destroying feats is the method of how he was able to do it. It was also hinted he did the same method which was to struck the lynchpin and several strategic sites causing a domino effect that destroyed the previous universe. OWAW was largely inconsistent too and Spectre had very little hand in something that was suppose to threaten the universe.

Originally posted by Mider
how is that possible if whole universes couldnt stop him i dont think that the DCU is weaker then the MU

If the cosmics never got involved during the destruction of said universes then that says it all. In the end regardless of all the power he had absorbed and all the universes he had destroyed, Spectre confronted and weakened him and then a few dozen heroes took him down. The few dozen cosmics here would annihilate him without a doubt.

Originally posted by Mider
and spectre losing to him is a big point in his corner since all those cosmics wouldnt hold a candle to spectre.

Debatable. Very debatable. Spectre has never been stated or shown to wield Gods full power as many wrongly assume. Spectre has failed on many occassions due to lack of power and it was shown in Genesis that he is less powerful than the Source the life force and origin point of Dc creation. I think you know where im going.

Yeah, I don't really see the Anti-Monitor taking out the Marvel universe. Just wouldn't happen. Too many celestials and powerful galactic beings out there to really not care about the fate of their universe. I'm 100% sure that Galactus would get involved, considering that he kinda owes Reed Richards one right now.

When the wielder of the Spectreforce steps beyond its bounds, the Logoz will cut him short on power, and he won't be able to accomplish it. That's not a matter of Spectre having too little power, it's a matter of the human soul being cut from it's powersource. When the Logoz is with him...


Even Spectre aside DC's high end cosmics have roles to fill, and they do not often step beyond them for some reason. They know Supes will fix it, lol.

Could the Antimonitor absorb a universe that wasn't created by Krona's experiment? I think not. His great power over the Infinite Earths was in large part due to their common origin.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Could the Antimonitor absorb a universe that wasn't created by Krona's experiment? I think not. His great power over the Infinite Earths was in large part due to their common origin. Huh?

Originally posted by Juntai
When the wielder of the Spectreforce steps beyond its bounds, the Logoz will cut him short on power, and he won't be able to accomplish it. That's not a matter of Spectre having too little power, it's a matter of the human soul being cut from it's powersource. When the Logoz is with him...

When it came to dealing with the Anti Monitor and fighting the embodiment of evil in "The last days of the Justice Society of America" back in the 80's Spectre was not acting out of bounds. It was straight up just a lack of power. Spectres performance in Crisis perfectly illustrates the point. Spectre cannot wield the full power of God. Until its actually stated on panel that he can then its wrong to assume so.


Originally posted by Juntai
Even Spectre aside DC's high end cosmics have roles to fill, and they do not often step beyond them for some reason. They know Supes will fix it, lol.

Marvels cosmics also have roles to fill, but they realise that the destruction of the universe would make their roles redundant so they often intervene. Stands to reason.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When it came to dealing with the Anti Monitor and fighting the embodiment of evil in "The last days of the Justice Society of America" back in the 80's Spectre was not acting out of bounds. It was straight up just a lack of power. Spectres performance in Crisis perfectly illustrates the point. Spectre cannot wield the full power of God. Until its actually stated on panel that he can then its wrong to assume so.
With the Anti-Monitor, if you read what Dr Fate had said in the COIE, Anti-Monitor tied his essence to every being present there at the dawn of time, and all would die if Spectre outright killed him, which noone seemed to doubt he could do.

Which leads us to the next thing...In the Post-crisis 80's Spectre was depowered by God. He wasn't powered back up until Ostrander's volume 3 in the mid-90s. Using that as your example doesn't prove much, he ran around in a little wizard group with Constantine. lol. Why did God depower him? For not stopping the Crisis himself. So it was within his power to do so, Corrigan ****ed up somewhere. The JSA series you spoke of was in what... 86-87, if I remember. The same time as depowered Spectre.


And finally...Spectre can't wield the full power of God, because it's only one of Gods hands. Hal pretty much held the full power of the Logoz though right at the very end of his series. As he was guiding the past present and future of all realities, and leading all souls on he paths they needed to be led on. And was the face of God to all races across all planets. Most people wielding Spectre's power probably won't reach that level, as the Wrath or even The Logoz won't let him... but it is the peak of Spectre's power.

Originally posted by Juntai
With the Anti-Monitor, if you read what Dr Fate had said in the COIE, Anti-Monitor tied his essence to every being present there at the dawn of time, and all would die if Spectre outright killed him, which noone seemed to doubt he could do.

If it was within Spectres power then why did he require the mystical aid of a few dozen magic practitioners when dealing with the Anti-Monitor?

Originally posted by Juntai
Which leads us to the next thing...In the Post-crisis 80's Spectre was depowered by God. He wasn't powered back up until Ostrander's volume 3 in the mid-90s. Using that as your example doesn't prove much, he ran around in a little wizard group with Constantine. lol. Why did God depower him? For not stopping the Crisis himself. So it was within his power to do so, Corrigan ****ed up somewhere. The JSA series you spoke of was in what... 86-87, if I remember. The same time as depowered Spectre.

I read that Spectre was depowered after being defeated by the embodiment of evil shortly after crisis as it marched on heaven. I'll have to check up on that. But fair enough for now i'll accept that and Spectres performance in Crisis as Corrigan f*cking up.


Originally posted by Juntai
And finally...Spectre can't wield the full power of God, because it's only one of Gods hands. Hal pretty much held the full power of the Logoz though right at the very end of his series. As he was guiding the past present and future of all realities, and leading all souls on he paths they needed to be led on. And was the face of God to all races across all planets. Most people wielding Spectre's power probably won't reach that level, as the Wrath or even The Logoz won't let him... but it is the peak of Spectre's power.

Well its quite clear that the Spectre doesnt have access to the full power of God. Im glad you have admitted that. I just dont like the argument that because he' slinked to God he can defeat anything which comes across his path if its within jurisdiction to do so. His depowerment showed that conclusively is NOT the case. Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God.

"If it was within Spectres power then why did he require the mystical aid of a few dozen magic practitioners when dealing with the Anti-Monitor?"
Beats me, dramatic writing?
Funny thing is, he wouldn't need to given the power, when it's proven he can take both the latent magic in the universe and use it, and also use people's magic power, even against their will.

I chalk Corrigan's mistakes up to the fact that he was an abused child and led a horrible life, and was a bad cop to boot.

I think he simply didn't have the scope someone with that much power should have. He was constantly using the power for personal gain or even going against gods wishes. And then would randomly pull the 'If God proposes why should I do anything about it?" gimick. He was horribly inconstant personality wise. I rarely if ever recall him even leaving Earth for any reason, and never wanted to be pulled away from his pretended human life.


Either way, that's not current re-powered Spectre, who hasn't been shown as failing really in a very very long time.

On a side note, Hal fought who he saw as the embodiment of evil, and just created a new reality and trapped him in it, lol. Of course, he escaped later on, and was defeated again later, but yeah. Evil is a constant in the universe, just as good is, and probably shouldn't be able to be destroyed by Spectre anyways.

Next, regardless of how stupid it sounds given how often they intertwine their stories, Vertigo isn't considered a canon part of the DCU. It detailed it about a month or two ago on newsarama. I still consider it as such, given moments like in Sandman when that human tries to summon and trap a demon and ends up with Morpheus, so he puts the guy through an infinitude of nightmares worse than hell... that scene was actually ALSO seen in the early issues of the current Green Arrow series. Needless to say countless other moments like that. But, it does mean that the plotline with Spectre vs the embodiment of evil in Swamp Thing didn't actually happen, as per canon for DC by their word. But as I said... it sounds dumb to me and probably to everyone else too. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
On a side note, Hal fought who he saw as the embodiment of evil, and just created a new reality and trapped him in it, lol. Of course, he escaped later on, and was defeated again later, but yeah. Evil is a constant in the universe, just as good is, and probably shouldn't be able to be destroyed by Spectre anyways.

Next, regardless of how stupid it sounds given how often they intertwine their stories, Vertigo isn't considered a canon part of the DCU. It detailed it about a month or two ago on newsarama. I still consider it as such, given moments like in Sandman when that human tries to summon and trap a demon and ends up with Morpheus, so he puts the guy through an infinitude of nightmares worse than hell... that scene was actually ALSO seen in the early issues of the current Green Arrow series. Needless to say countless other moments like that. But, it does mean that the plotline with Spectre vs the embodiment of evil in Swamp Thing didn't actually happen, as per canon for DC by their word. But as I said... it sounds dumb to me and probably to everyone else too. lol.

The embodiment of evil i was referring to is something Spectre fought in his Corrigan days so im not sure what you're talking about here. I know Vertigo isnt canon for DCU thats a point ive argued many a time here.

This Spectre diversion was started by myself in response to Miders comments about Spectre being able to take out any and all Marvel cosmics. Since you have now acknowledged that Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God, or unstoppable then it is a tangent i no longer need to go off on. Thanks for the discussion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The embodiment of evil i was referring to is something Spectre fought in his Corrigan days so im not sure what you're talking about here. I know Vertigo isnt canon for DCU thats a point ive argued many a time here.

This Spectre diversion was started by myself in response to Miders comments about Spectre being able to take out any and all Marvel cosmics. Since you have now acknowledged that Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God, or unstoppable then it is a tangent i no longer need to go off on. Thanks for the discussion. Right, but as I said, the embodiment of evil thing that happened in American Gothic isn't canon, as it didn't happen in DC, but in Vertigo in Swamp Thing.


And it's not god, but it's probably the next best thing. As seen, Spectre flipping out is stopped only by God himself. lol. Which was even the highest Lord of Order's ultimate plan at beating him, which even he saw as the only possible way.

Originally posted by Juntai
Right, but as I said, the embodiment of evil thing that happened in American Gothic isn't canon, as it didn't happen in DC, but in Vertigo in Swamp Thing.


And it's not god, but it's probably the next best thing. As seen, Spectre flipping out is stopped only by God himself. lol. Which was even the highest Lord of Order's ultimate plan at beating him, which even he saw as the only possible way.

An out of control Spectre has also been stopped by the brothers so thats not quite true. Regardless the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction is unstoppable and equates to God is wrong and needs to be laid to rest. Im just glad that you agreed with me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An out of control Spectre has also been stopped by the brothers so thats not quite true. Regardless the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction is unstoppable and equates to God is wrong and needs to be laid to rest. Im just glad that you agreed with me. Corrigan was stopped by Micheal backing the wishes of The Word/Logoz. And suddenly Corrigan finds himself helpless? lol. Notice the problem there? I'm sure I don't even have to point that out. It's the same outcome. God and it's aspects shut him down and empowered Micheal. Lucifer that I can recall has never defeated Spectre. So it IS still quite true that it takes God to do it.

Needless to say, Micheal nearly died in the Spectre series, guess who he ran to for help?


But, I do agree, he isn't god, just the next best thing.

Phoenix alone would take Anti-Monitor down. Maybe also Living Tribunal would take him down. The one with IG. THOTU easily.
Anyway, MU would stop him extremely easily.

Originally posted by Juntai
Corrigan was stopped by Micheal backing the wishes of The Word/Logoz. And suddenly Corrigan finds himself helpless? lol. Notice the problem there? I'm sure I don't even have to point that out. It's the same outcome. God and it's aspects shut him down and empowered Micheal. Lucifer that I can recall has never defeated Spectre. So it IS still quite true that it takes God to do it.

Needless to say, Micheal nearly died in the Spectre series, guess who he ran to for help?


But, I do agree, he isn't god, just the next best thing.

Why was Michael empowered? Just because he was following Gods will?

A Spectre wth jurisdiction can and has been defeated. An out of control Spectre has been defeated by someone other than God.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why was Michael empowered? Just because he was following Gods will?

A Spectre wth jurisdiction can and has been defeated. An out of control Spectre has been defeated by someone other than God. The Logoz/Word is the same source of power of Spectre, Micheal came obeying it's order. It's obvious who was going to win. Spectre suddenly didn't have the power to do anything. It's a rigged fight when Spectre's powers are off and Micheal is claiming he came in the name of that very power. lol. God wrote a law saying Spectre had no jurisdiction over the mortal plane without a host. It was written as law.
It was God vs Spectre again.

Spectre year 1, by Ostrander and Mandrake, going over Spectre's history with the priest on the dock where he died, describing Jesus' death and Spectre going nuts.

When was a Spectre judging been defeated?

Originally posted by Juntai
The Logoz/Word is the same source of power of Spectre, Micheal came obeying it's order. It's obvious who was going to win. Spectre suddenly didn't have the power to do anything. It's a rigged fight when Spectre's powers are off and Micheal is claiming he came in the name of that very power. lol. God wrote a law saying Spectre had no jurisdiction over the mortal plane without a host. It was written as law.
It was God vs Spectre again.

Spectre year 1, by Ostrander and Mandrake, going over Spectre's history with the priest on the dock where he died, describing Jesus' death and Spectre going nuts.

When was a Spectre judging been defeated?

Where is it stated that an out of control Spectre has his powers reduced by the Logoz? If the Logoz was willing to do that in the first place why not just completely turn off the power as opposed to recruiting someone to take on the unruly Spectre.

You got any scans to prove this fluctuating powered Spectre? Or is it just an assumption that when Spectre disobeys God his powers are reduced. Spectre failing and then having his powerset reduced after Crisis is something different.

Michael obeying the Word isnt suddenly empowered by the Word you have no evidence for that. An unruly Spectre got taken down by someone his master recruited for the task. Simple as.

A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction (Crisis) can and has failed to achieve his goals. He can be defeated.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where is it stated that an out of control Spectre has his powers reduced by the Logoz? If the Logoz was willing to do that in the first place why not just completely turn off the power as opposed to recruiting someone to take on the unruly Spectre.

You got any scans to prove this fluctuating powered Spectre? Or is it just an assumption that when Spectre disobeys God his powers are reduced. Spectre failing and then having his powerset reduced after Crisis is something different.

Michael obeying the Word isnt suddenly empowered by the Word you have no evidence for that. An unruly Spectre got taken down by someone his master recruited for the task. Simple as.

A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction (Crisis) can and has failed to achieve his goals. He can be defeated. Reaching, eh?

The Logoz/Spectre is commonly known to commonly turn off powers when it's users try to step out of line. It's detailed multiples times in Legends of the DCU: Devourer of Worlds. Which is issues 33-36 of LoDCU series, which leaves off where issue 1 of Volume 4 picks up.


And yes, if God wants someone down, they're down, that's it.
Anything less would mean God is fallible, which is not an option.

Good rewording, but prove it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Agreed! why dont we just have apocolypse destroy him???

Originally posted by Juntai
Good rewording, but prove it.

What do i need to prove? It happened. He failed, he got punished, leaving a depowered Spectre. A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction can be defeated as conclusively depicted on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What do i need to prove? It happened. He failed, he got punished, leaving a depowered Spectre. A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction can be defeated as conclusively depicted on panel. Show me him in judging mode getting defeated. You're clearly bitter about this.


All of his defeats you've mentioned thus far include God getting involved for his downfall.

Originally posted by Juntai



And yes, if God wants someone down, they're down, that's it.
Anything less would mean God is fallible, which is not an option.

But then Spectre doesnt equate to God so im not following your point. If Spectre did equate to God then given his performance in Crisis on Infinite Earths and his recent actions in Day Of Vengeance then DC's God is indeed fallible, which i agree isnt an option. So guess what that means?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But then Spectre doesnt equate to God so im not following your point. If Spectre did equate to God then given his performance in Crisis on Infinite Earths and his recent actions in Day Of Vengeance then DC's God is indeed fallible, which i agree isnt an option. So guess what that means? I already said he wasn't God, but, he's certainly the highest being. Or as I worded it before 'the next best thing'.

Originally posted by Juntai
Show me him in judging mode getting defeated. You're clearly bitter about this.


All of his defeats you've mentioned thus far include God getting involved for his downfall.

Dont get mad, i assure you im not bitter about anything.

Spectre when acting within his jurisdiction can and has been defeated. In fact Spectre required additional aid and still got laid out and that was after having only depowered Anti-Monitor, not stopping him.

Ok. Boring now.
Antimonitor would be negated in the MU.
End of the story.
Even if LT has not shown enough to appease some readers, eveidently, almost all cosmic characters in the MU agree he has the power to keep the kids under control. So, they either sense it, or he has done it in the past. So, he is the cheese.

Originally posted by King KAM
why dont we just have apocolypse destroy him???

Because he alone wouldn't be able. But with help of MU, Anti-Monitor would get totalled, ****ing destroyed and easily.

Originally posted by Juntai
I already said he wasn't God, but, he's certainly the highest being. Or as I worded it before 'the next best thing'.

There have been statements referring to Lucifer and Michael as such, which makes sense given them being created as the successors of God. On top of that his bios dont refer to him as the most powerful being in the universe, but as one of them. He's been defeated when acting within jurisdiction and he's been taken down by forces other than God himself when acting up.

Jun if only you could see me now. I cant stop laughing i know this is winding you up. I cant help it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Because he alone wouldn't be able. But with help of MU, Anti-Monitor would get totalled, ****ing destroyed and easily. you make it toooo easy my friend....tooo easy

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont get mad, i assure you im not bitter about anything.

Spectre when acting within his jurisdiction can and has been defeated. In fact Spectre required additional aid and still got laid out and that was after having only depowered Anti-Monitor, not stopping him. Now it's obvious you're bitter.
Must have been when I made poked fun about Superman beating Pheonix, given you were trying to discredit me in some odd fashion over there as well.

I've went through this in this thread already.
Spectre won the fight with antimonitor, depowered him, and recreated the multiverse into the one consistant universe and banished him back to the anti-matter universe where he died, all at the same time.

Where did he lose when judging?
You've yet to prove him losing in anything but the times God had to get invovled.

You're about as backed in a corner in this aruement, just as I would be trying to ague Pheonix against you.
It's pretty much that simple.

Spectre can be deafeated possibly it just hasn't happened yet without God getting involved. He clearly gets harmed by characters with sufficient power though. That's proof. He's the highest physical being in the universe and everyone in the comics acknowledges it.

Originally posted by King KAM
you make it toooo easy my friend....tooo easy

No, that is what would happen to Anti-Monitor.

Originally posted by Juntai
Now it's obvious you're bitter.
Must have been when I made poked fun about Superman beating Pheonix, given you were trying to discredit me in some odd fashion over there as well.

You've seriously got me so wrong.

Why am i bitter all of a sudden? Cos i disagree with your interpretation of the Spectre?

Originally posted by Juntai
I've went through this in this thread already.
Spectre won the fight with antimonitor, depowered him, and recreated the multiverse into the one consistant universe and banished him back to the anti-matter universe where he died, all at the same time.

Where did he lose when judging?
You've yet to prove him losing in anything but the times God had to get invovled.

While acting within his jurisdiction, whilst acting according to his mission, Spectre failed to defeat Anti Monitor. He took the fight out of him and Anti Monitor fled (or was sent?) back to his own realm. While Anti Monitor later came back for a second run, Spectre was in a coma

God depowered him for his failure and put him on a new mission given his failure in Crisis:


http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8212481293.jpg&s=x10

Spectre failed. For all his power Anti Monitor was up and running again next issue. As a result he got demoted. Spectre acting in accordance to his mission can and has been defeated/thwarted.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're about as backed in a corner in this aruement, just as I would be trying to ague Pheonix against you.
It's pretty much that simple.

Hmmm.

Originally posted by Juntai
He's the highest physical being in the universe and everyone in the comics acknowledges it.

Really? Everyone?

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8213012742.jpg&s=x10

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You've seriously got me so wrong.

Why am i bitter all of a sudden? Cos i disagree with your interpretation of the Spectre?



While acting within his jurisdiction, whilst acting according to his mission, Spectre failed to defeat Anti Monitor. He took the fight out of him and Anti Monitor fled (or was sent?) back to his own realm. While Anti Monitor later came back for a second run, Spectre was in a coma

God depowered him for his failure and put him on a new mission given his failure in Crisis:


http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8212481293.jpg&s=x10

Spectre failed. For all his power Anti Monitor was up and running again next issue. As a result he got demoted. Spectre acting in accordance to his mission can and has been defeated/thwarted.

did it say somewhere that god backed him or god directly gave spectre the task of destroying or stopping him? been a while since i read it, but i don't recall god speaking in that series . . .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You've seriously got me so wrong.

Why am i bitter all of a sudden? Cos i disagree with your interpretation of the Spectre?



While acting within his jurisdiction, whilst acting according to his mission, Spectre failed to defeat Anti Monitor. He took the fight out of him and Anti Monitor fled (or was sent?) back to his own realm. While Anti Monitor later came back for a second run, Spectre was in a coma

God depowered him for his failure and put him on a new mission given his failure in Crisis:


http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8212481293.jpg&s=x10

Spectre failed. For all his power Anti Monitor was up and running again next issue. As a result he got demoted. Spectre acting in accordance to his mission can and has been defeated/thwarted. Anti-Monitor didn't defeat him though. Who was banished, who recreated the multiverse, and who got depowered by the other, and who would never see/harm the matter universe again?

If Spectre's purpose was defeat The Anti-Monitor, he would have done it. He falls unconscious yes, but Phantom Stranger, a character nearly omnipotent himself, said "The power we need to save the universe is being denied to us", hinting by otherwordly power keeping him down. A couple pages later, a bunch of people gather around Spectre trying to wake him and mention Spectre himself willing against it. "He resists us, his power is greater than ours!" Spectre had fullfilled his role.

He has failed, just as he failed to prevent the crisis' but that's human error. It was within his power to do everything neccisary. And he got punished by God for it.

Either way, that's still not current Spectre.
He was depowered, and then brought back to full power in volume 3, then gained even more in volume 4.

Originally posted by leonidas
did it say somewhere that god backed him or god directly gave spectre the task of destroying or stopping him? been a while since i read it, but i don't recall god speaking in that series . . .

I'll re-read that issue tonight. I really hope youre right Leo, cos that would change everything!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hmmm.



Really? Everyone?

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8213012742.jpg&s=x10 That's a vertigo title, and not canon. And it says Lucifer is the most powerful angel, Spectre is the form of an angel, but the essence of Gods wrath.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll re-read that issue tonight. I really hope youre right Leo, cos that would change everything!! It didn't. Spectre never gave his 'came to pass judgement' monologue to Anti-Monitor. I'm looking at it right now on 294 and 295 of the tpb.

Originally posted by Juntai
Anti-Monitor didn't defeat him though. Who was banished, who recreated the multiverse, and who got depowered by the other, and who would never the matter universe again?

As stated in the bio Spectre failed to make a siginificant difference. Where does it state that Spectre banished AM as opposed to him retreating after a vast expenditure of his energy? Regardless even if he did banish him AM was back next issue whilst Spectre was laid out. AM might not have defeated him but whats even worse is that Spectre never defeated him either and expended all his energy on merely depowering AM before falling into coma.

Originally posted by Juntai
If Spectre's purpose was defeat The Anti-Monitor, he would have done it. He falls unconscious yes, but Phantom Stranger, a character nearly omnipotent himself, said "The power we need to save the universe is being denied to us", hinting by otherwordly power keeping him down. A couple pages later, a bunch of people gather around Spectre trying to wake him and mention Spectre himself willing against it. "He resists us, his power is greater than ours!" Spectre had fullfilled his role.

What do u mean if Spectres purpose was to defeat him he would have done it? Why do you think he intervened? To soften him up for the heroes? Come on Jun

He tried to stop him and he failed. He was punished for his failure by God. Which tells you that God wanted him defeated and that Spectre had the power to defeat AM yet he still didnt pull it off. He failed.

Originally posted by Juntai
It didn't. Spectre never gave his 'came to pass judgement' monologue to Anti-Monitor. I'm looking at it right now on 294 and 295 of the tpb.

Irrelevant. He doesnt have to do that. Why does he have to do that Juntai? He acted to stop AM and he failed straight up. Thats the crux of the matter. As a result he got punished. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been thwarted. He doesnt equate to God and he is not unstoppable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As stated in the bio Spectre failed to make a siginificant difference. Where does it state that Spectre banished AM as opposed to him retreating after a vast expenditure of his energy? Regardless even if he did banish him AM was back next issue whilst Spectre was laid out. AM might not have defeated him but whats even worse is that Spectre never defeated him either and expended all his energy on merely depowering AM before falling into coma.



What do u mean if Spectres purpose was to defeat him he would have done it? Why do you think he intervened? To soften him up for the heroes? Come on Jun

He tried to stop him and he failed. He was punished for his failure by God. Which tells you that God wanted him defeated and that Spectre had the power to defeat AM yet he still didnt pull it off. He failed. No, God punished him for not preventing the Crisis, not losing. He wasn't MEANT to do it because he didn't come and cast judgement. However, he CHOSE to do it, and succeeded.

You're still ignoring the fact that Spectre himself didn't want to get woken. It's stated that he resisted them trying to do it. Phantom Stranger hinted towards another power denying the universe Spectre's power. So either Spectre chose to lay there, or God made him lay there or some combination of both. Those are the outcomes of the explanation given.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant. He doesnt have to do that. Why does he have to do that Juntai? He acted to stop AM and he failed straight up. Thats the crux of the matter. As a result he got punished. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been thwarted. He doesnt equate to God and he is not unstoppable. I didn't say he was unstoppable. I'm saying no one's done it without Gods intervention. You've yet to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by Juntai
That's a vertigo title, and not canon. And it says Lucifer is the most powerful angel, Spectre is the form of an angel, but the essence of Gods wrath.

The scan showed a scene where Dream of the Endless stated that besides God Lucifer is perhaps the most powerful being in creation.

You said everyone in comics acknowledges Spectre as the most powerful physical being. I posted a scan that proved your statement wrong. Thats all.

Also i like how you accept and dismiss Vertigo as continuity as and when it suits your argument. When i said in that debate that Lucifer wasnt canon you argued that Sandman was canon as it featured many characters from DC along with virtually identical histories. Whats brought about this change of perspective my friend?

Arguing circles sucks.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scan showed a scene where Dream of the Endless stated that besides God Lucifer is perhaps the most powerful being in creation.

You said everyone in comics acknowledges Spectre as the most powerful physical being. I posted a scan that proved your statement wrong. Thats all.

Also i like how you accept and dismiss Vertigo as continuity as and when it suits your argument. When i said in that debate that Lucifer wasnt canon you argued that Sandman was canon as it featured many characters from DC along with virtually identical histories. Whats brought about this change of perspective my friend?
A non canon comic can't prove it wrong when considering him being the highest acknowledged being in DC.

Vertigo was stated to not be canon by DC themselves, I saw it as canon, given events happening in both places at once, and characters crossing both ways, and stories matching up. However, when told it's not canon recently by DC, I'm forced to believe such.
Didn't I go through this already too?
What's with the circles dude?

Originally posted by Juntai
No, God punished him for not preventing the Crisis, not losing. He wasn't MEANT to do it because he didn't come and cast judgement. However, he CHOSE to do it, and succeeded.

Prove it. Sounds like speculation to me. So youre saying that for Spectre to be acting in accordance to his mission he has to be seen to go into cast judgement mode otherwise he's just joining in for fun? Get the hell outta here!!!

My scan ive posted says he was punished for failing to make a significant enough difference in the Crisis. Post something that verifys your claims all we''l leave it at that.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're still ignoring the fact that Spectre himself didn't want to get woken. It's stated that he resisted them trying to do it. Phantom Stranger hinted towards another power denying the universe Spectre's power. So either Spectre chose to lay there, or God made him lay there or some combination of both. Those are the outcomes of the explanation given.

Doesnt change the fact that his exertion laid him out in the first place. All the rest is speculation. AM went back to his realm to rest and came back with a vengeance. All the while Spectre was napping.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Prove it. Sounds like speculation to me. So youre saying that for Spectre to be acting in accordance to his mission he has to be seen to go into cast judgement mode otherwise he's just joining in for fun? Get the hell outta here!!!

My scan ive posted says he was punished for failing to make a significant enough difference in the Crisis. Post something that verifys your claims all we''l leave it at that.



Doesnt change the fact that his exertion laid him out in the first place. All the rest is speculation. AM went back to his realm to rest and came back with a vengeance. All the while Spectre was napping. And your interpretation of the vague statement's in the brio is not what's supported in the comics, so is irrelivent. But you probably think people will side you because you're posting up nonsense and a picture that didn't support anything.

And yes, when "The Wrath Of God" takes over, it's because he's meant to kill whoever it is. Hal changed The Wrath and was no longer forced into randomly deeming things must die in the name of God. Each time it was brought into the comic and merged with Hal, he started again. Hell, it even did started doing it in Zauriel's body. lol. It's pretty clear cut.

Spectre surely wasn't going to kill all the heros by killing the anti-monitor, he depowered him, recreated the multiverse, banish etc etc. Next time's seen on panel, is Phantom Stranger speaking of another worldy force denying the universe the Spectre's power, after that is him resisting them trying to wake him.. What page of the Crisis supports your theory again?

Originally posted by Juntai
And your interpretation of the vague statement's in the brio is not what's supported in the comics, so is irrelivent. But you probably think people will side you because you're posting up nonsense and a picture that didn't support anything.

And yes, when "The Wrath Of God" takes over, it's because he's meant to kill whoever it is. Hal changed The Wrath and was no longer forced into randomly deeming things must die in the name of God. Each time it was brought into the comic and merged with Hal, he started again. Hell, it even did started doing it in Zauriel's body. lol. It's pretty clear cut.

Spectre surely wasn't going to kill all the heros by killing the anti-monitor, he depowered him, recreated the multiverse, etc etc. Next time's seen on panel, is Phantom Stranger speaking of another worldy force denying the universe the Spectre's power, after that is him resisting them trying to wake him.

And yet Spectre was punished for failing to make a significant impact in Crisis. He attempted to defeat the Monitor and he failed to do so.

You cannot call my interpretation irrelevant when i have backed it up with scans. If my interpretation is conclusively shown to be wrong in the comics then show me. Otherwise telling me im wrong and re-stating what hasnt been proven to be anything other than your OPINION will get you nowhere.

Spectre acting in accordance with his mission has been thwarted. He acted to stop Anti Monitor and succeeded only in depowering him, leaving Spectre himself knocked out from the exertion. After Crisis God punished Spectre for his failure during Crisis by depowering him. He failed, he is not infallible. That is conclusively proven.

Spectre has been defeated by beings other than God, he is harmed by powers other than God. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been left incapacitated.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet Spectre was punished for failing to make a significant impact in Crisis. He attempted to defeat the Monitor and he failed to do so.

You cannot call my interpretation irrelevant when i have backed up with scans. If my interpretation is conclusively shown to be wrong in the comics then show me. Otherwise telling me im wrong and re-stating what hasnt been proven to be anything other than your OPINION will get you nowhere.

Spectre acting in accordance with his mission has been thwarted. He acted to stop Anti Monitor and succeeded only in depowering him, leaving Spectre himself knocked out from the exertion. After Crisis God punished Spectre for his failure during Crisis by depowering him. He failed, he is not infallible. That is conclusively proven.

Spectre has been defeated by beings other than God, he is harmed by powers other than God. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been left incapacitated. Oh no, back in the circle again, read my last post, it's the part where the circle ends before you start over again.

Nevermind, I'll try to burn it in one more time.










Backed with scans? It didn't say anything helping your cause. Corrigan got punished in the first issue of volume 2 for not PREVENTING the crisis, not LOSING a battle, That's why he got punished.

Where does this prove a lack of power?
Where does this change what happened in the comics?
What page of the Crisis supports your theory based on a random scan with vague wording you're trying to manipulate?
I'll flip to it.

Spectre didn't cast judgement, was unwanting to kill him because he was tied to every living being there, and still depowered him, banished him, and recreated the multiverse.

Next time he's shown on panel, Phantom Stranger alludes to a greater power keeping Spectre down, and then when they try to get him up, he resists them and they say he's too powerful for them. I wonder why a KNOCKED OUT guy would be RESISTING them with TOO MUCH POWER? Please.

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh no, back in the circle again, read my last post, it's the part where the circle ends before you start over again.

Nevermind, I'll try to burn it in one more time.










Backed with scans? It didn't say anything helping your cause. Corrigan got punished in the first issue of volume 2 for not PREVENTING the crisis, not LOSING a battle, That's why he got punished.

Where does this prove a lack of power?
Where does this change what happened in the comics?
What page of the Crisis supports your theory based on a random scan with vague wording you're trying to manipulate?
I'll flip to it.

Spectre didn't cast judgement, was unwanting to kill him because he was tied to every living being there, and still depowered him, banished him, and recreated the multiverse.

Next time he's shown on panel, Phantom Stranger alludes to a greater power keeping Spectre down, and then when they try to get him up, he resists them and they say he's too powerful for them. I wonder why a KNOCKED OUT guy would be RESISTING them with TOO MUCH POWER? Please.

And yet what have you posted to allow readers to tell that your interpretation is the genuine article and not just your unsupported opinion.

You may say its stated that the Spectre was punished for not preventing the crisis but if the bio also says that he was punished for his failure to have a significant impact upon said crisis then why cant both be the case. Why does it just have to be the former? Im thinking because it would paint the Spectre in a better light if that was the case

The bio states what it states and theres no reason why it cant be both. Regardless God wanted Anti Monitor stopped and according to official sources Spectre failed on both accounts. He failed to prevent the Crisis in the first place and once it had begun he failed to take down Anti Monitor. He was consequently punished.

Spectre can and has failed when acting in accordance with Gods wishes. That much is conclusive.

Its just your opinion , that Spectre needs to go into cast judgement mode for us to assume that he's acting in accordance with Gods wishes. Show me where thats stated. Regardless the point is stated in the bio. You have nothing but your opinion. If you beg to differ then come up with the goods.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet what have you posted to allow readers to tell that your interpretation is the genuine article and not just your unsupported opinion.

You may say its stated that the Spectre was punished for not preventing the crisis but if the bio also says that he was punished for his failure to have a significant impact upon said crisis then why cant both be the case. Why does it just have to be the former? Im thinking because it would paint the Spectre in a better light if that was the case

The bio states what it states and theres no reason why it cant be both. Regardless God wanted Anti Monitor stopped and according to official sources Spectre failed on both accounts. He failed to prevent the Crisis in the first place and once it had begun he failed to take down Anti Monitor. He was consequently punished.

Spectre can and has failed when acting in accordance with Gods wishes. That much is conclusive.

Its just your opinion , that Spectre needs to go into cast judgement mode for us to assume that he's acting in accordance with Gods wishes. Show me where thats stated. Regardless the point is stated in the bio. You have nothing but your opinion. If you beg to differ then come up with the goods. Because it's not what happened in the comic, I've been making due with quotes and references to specific pages and panels in the comics in question. You have a bio that doesn't support anything you've yet said nor does it go against anything I've said, it's merely you twisting the words because you apperently aren't seeing the pages and panels in the comic I'm refering to. Needless to say, the current bio on DC.com goes against your theory as well as supports mine as well... http://www.dccomics.com/secret_files/pdfs/the_spectre.pdf right here, if you'll notice the box at the bottom where it says key stories. "Spectre stops the Anti-Monitor from destroying creation and reignites the universe."

Originally posted by Juntai
Because it's not what happened in the comic, I've been making due with quotes and references to specific pages and panels in the comics in question. You have a bio that doesn't support anything you've yet said nor does it go against anything I've said, it's merely you twisting the words because you apperently aren't seeing the pages and panels in the comic I'm refering to. Needless to say, the current bio on DC.com goes against your theory as well as supports mine as well... http://www.dccomics.com/secret_files/pdfs/the_spectre.pdf right here, if you'll notice the box at the bottom where it says key stories. "Spectre stops the Anti-Monitor from destroying creation and reignites the universe."

Spectres assisted (by the dozens of mystics) intervention stopped from destroying creation in that instance. We know that. However that doesnt change the fact that he failed to have a significant impact on the crisis as far as God was concerned (meaning that he should have stopped the Crisis occurring in the first place and possibly put an end to the threat of AM at that point but failed to). Either way Spectre with jurisdiction can and has failed. He can be hurt and can lack the power to deal with situations as perfectly illustrated by Crisis.

Spectres link to God doesnt equate to infallibility. Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt mean unstoppable. Thats been shown on panel conclusively. Anyone who has read Crisis knows that.

I'd have to agree with both of u in some ways , he did stop AM but was not allowed to interfere anymore in the Crisis because he seemed to have failed to stop it from happening, but at the major time when the AM was going to destroy Creation and the Spectre did stop him. Darkseid then finally got involved when he saw AM return and was threatening the Universe again. It could be said that that The Presence/God pretty much knew Darkseid was going to get involved and save creation again so there is no real reason that everyone needed God's help anymore. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by kevdude
It could be said that that The Presence/God pretty much knew Darkseid was going to get involved and save creation again so there is no real reason that everyone needed God's help anymore. Does that make sense?

I see what youre saying. You think that God saw what a mess Spectre had made of everything so he kept him comatose knowing that Darkseid and the heroes were going to handle the situation themselves?

Well The Spectre really didn't know if he should get involved with the Crisis to begin with i believe, seeing that he just let things take there course and when it really really got bad he finally intervened and saved everyone. The Presence kept him comatose cause they didn't need The Wraths help anymore seeing that Darkseid finally got off his lazy butt and decided to help (probably a major reason why he helped so early in OWAW).

hmm, interesting, but i think i'm gonna have to side with jun in this one.

first, where was it conclusively shown the spectre WAS ordered by god to take out AM? retroactively (unless i missed or forgot something) he we god was somehow disappointed in the fact that spectre didn't prevent the crisis, but we don't really know anything BEFORE crisis -- unless someone has evidence that i'm unaware of.

secondly, i tend to think jun's interpretation of spectre's failure is the more sensible one. he DID fail to prevent the crisis happening which allowed everything else that followed. when he was cast into a coma, how do you know the power he used to be rendered INTO the coma, was power sanctioned/granted by god? are you implying gs, that god's power failed? spectre's wielded god's power before and not gone into a coma, so why believe it was fully god's power this time?

as far as not destroying AM: the reprecussions of such an act would have been VERY damaging at the time, nor as you allude to facetiously above, was he required to destroy him at the time. he'd depowered AM to the point where he was no longer the ulimate cosmic menace. kinda like the PF not coming down on wanda -- it knew the others could deal with her!

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, interesting, but i think i'm gonna have to side with jun in this one.

first, where was it conclusively shown the spectre WAS ordered by god to take out AM? retroactively (unless i missed or forgot something) he we god was somehow disappointed in the fact that spectre didn't prevent the crisis, but we don't really know anything BEFORE crisis -- unless someone has evidence that i'm unaware of.

As stated Spectres mission Pre crisis was to fight any and all evil forces/beings, stopping AM was within his jurisdiction. Its not about Spectre being specifically ordered to take down specific enemies. Where has that been shown to be standard fare for Spectre? Spectre in his Pre Crisis days was given set on a mission and he was given the tools (i.e vast supernatural powers) to fulfill said mission.

Spectre failed to prevent the crisis from occurring in the first place and on top of that while he did depower Anti- Monitor it was with the aid of the assembled mystics and even with said aid it was still a struggle. Perfectly illustrating my point that Spectre with jurisdiction isnt all powerful and isnt infallible.

Originally posted by leonidas
secondly, i tend to think jun's interpretation of spectre's failure is the more sensible one. he DID fail to prevent the crisis happening which allowed everything else that followed. when he was cast into a coma, how do you know the power he used to be rendered INTO the coma, was power sanctioned/granted by god? are you implying gs, that god's power failed? spectre's wielded god's power before and not gone into a coma, so why believe it was fully god's power this time?

Im really dont know what youre going on about here. Seriously lol. Spectre Pre Crisis was put on a mission and given power too fulfill siad mission. It is not standard for Spectre to have convene with God prior to every action takes. Im im wrong show me. Youre going by the assumption that Spectre wasnt sanctioned to fight AM because there wasnt an on panel scene where God specifically tells him to fight AM. Come on Leo, since when has it worked like that?

AM's an evil force that threatens life, Spectre has jurisdiction to take him out. Read the bio again and you'll see what i mean. If Jun begs to differ then let him provide some on panel support.

As stated Spectre was empowered by God to fight evil forces that threaten life. AM qualifies as such. Spectre was unable to stop him without aid. Thus dismissing the notion that a Spectre acting with jurisdiction is all powerful. After his exertion he was rendered comatose and he remained so for unexplained reasons.

Originally posted by leonidas
as far as not destroying AM: the reprecussions of such an act would have been VERY damaging at the time, nor as you allude to facetiously above, was he required to destroy him at the time. he'd depowered AM to the point where he was no longer the ulimate cosmic menace. kinda like the PF not coming down on wanda -- it knew the others could deal with her!

Youre missing the point of what i was trying to ascertain here. He had indeed depowered AM but not only had he failed to prevent AM from becoming such a threat in the first place but when he did confront him he required aid. Thats the crux of the matter and the point i was trying to highlight. Acting as per his mission, doesnt equate to an omnipotent, infallible Spectre as crisis illustrated.

i say antimonitor wins because not even spectre could womp him and LT does not equal spectre nor do all the cosmics

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As stated Spectres mission Pre crisis was to fight any and all evil forces/beings, stopping AM was within his jurisdiction. Its not about Spectre being specifically ordered to take down specific enemies. Where has that been shown to be standard fare for Spectre? Spectre in his Pre Crisis days was given set on a mission and he was given the tools (i.e vast supernatural powers) to fulfill said mission.

Spectre failed to prevent the crisis from occurring in the first place and on top of that while he did depower Anti- Monitor it was with the aid of the assembled mystics and even with said aid it was still a struggle. Perfectly illustrating my point that Spectre with jurisdiction isnt all powerful and isnt infallible.



Im really dont know what youre going on about here. Seriously lol. Spectre Pre Crisis was put on a mission and given power too fulfill siad mission. It is not standard for Spectre to have convene with God prior to every action takes. Im im wrong show me. Youre going by the assumption that Spectre wasnt sanctioned to fight AM because there wasnt an on panel scene where God specifically tells him to fight AM. Come on Leo, since when has it worked like that?

AM's an evil force that threatens life, Spectre has jurisdiction to take him out. Read the bio again and you'll see what i mean. If Jun begs to differ then let him provide some on panel support.

As stated Spectre was empowered by God to fight evil forces that threaten life. AM qualifies as such. Spectre was unable to stop him without aid. Thus dismissing the notion that a Spectre acting with jurisdiction is all powerful. After his exertion he was rendered comatose and he remained so for unexplained reasons.



Youre missing the point of what i was trying to ascertain here. He had indeed depowered AM but not only had he failed to prevent AM from becoming such a threat in the first place but when he did confront him he required aid. Thats the crux of the matter and the point i was trying to highlight. Acting as per his mission, doesnt equate to an omnipotent, infallible Spectre as crisis illustrated.

by that reasoning, you could have listed any one of a bunch of characters pre-crisis who gave spectre trouble. why harp on AM?

and who said he's infallible? ages ago azmodeus battled spectre to a stalemate. by your reasoning, his whole existence has been a failure. after all, evil still exists and god granted him power to wipe it out. did/does god not want him to succeed? that fact alone proves he is fallible. throughout his history others have defied or stood up to him -- shaitan, kulak, beltane to name just a couple. hell, in one role, even psycho-pirate caused him some trouble! we know he can be harmed or defeated by sufficient magical powers or weapons.

if god wills him to wipe out all evil, do you think he couldn't? had it really been god's wish to have spectre kill or destroy AM do you think he would have been unable to? this is why over the years writers have often had such a hard time dealing with the character.

i think you're highlighting the wrong thing. what we should be asking is what does it say about the spectre/god relationship that spectre DID struggle with AM and these others. the spectre character has gone through a LOT of changes over the years, including a pre-crisis depowering before he was set upon his mission to maintain a cosmic balance. in THAT regard he did fail. but why would god allow this?

essentially you're saying his battle with am shows he's not 'invincible'. you didn't need THAT battle to show that. jun's point (i think) is that if god truly IS acting through spectre (which i believe he has been shown to do in more recent incarnations) then he truly is invincible -- unless you're going to say an enemy could overcome god. since god certainly could have willed am's defeat, the question becomes why did god let it reach the point it did?

he cant destroy evil its like when he tried killing darkseid if he did kill him then the universe would collapse like it did so he CAN kill all evil but if he did he'd have to kill an essential part of the universe, even galactus can be labled as evil yet if he dies he will end the universe. there is no one in the MU sept TOAA who can stand up to the antimonitor

Mider look at who stopped the AM. Marvels cosmics do intervene, when it's necessary. After Spectre fought him, Darkseid omega effected him and multiple supermen punched him............ Do they>>>> Eternity, Galactus, death, Celestial Hosts?? No.
The Marvel universe would win, and easily with the help of the cosmics. The only thing that keeps it from happening in your mind is pigheaded biaseness.
And both LT and Spectre have low showings. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that fact?? You sound like a child.

after he fought the spectre umm is that some kind of joke? what do you think he went out of that fight as fresh as a daisy???????? and not even the omega effects killed him it took other thinks to finish him off so that argument isnt great. and no Spectre doesnt have many low showings he says i didnt have that power then and he just raises his power and is able to defeat whoever he lost to he said that to nabu when he said i couldnt beat you before and nabu said that was dr fate not me, anyway are any of those beings you mentioned able to destroy the universe, no so why are you even bringing them up antimonitor killed so many universes they were no longer infinite. LT's power level has not been said to go up or down he has had a low showing against the IG, he was like i dont know if i can beat it, then when he fought korvac he ran away cause his judgement proved useless. Spectre loses sometimes then he can call forth more power and then just womp whoever womped him last. LT has trouble with Dr Strange dude, Spectre had trouble with Dr Fate true but later womped his source of power.......nabu who is stronger then shazam the wizard, he even broke the rock of eternity that is the source of all magic is it not? He defeated fifth dimension imps name me one of those people in your list that could beat a fifth dimension imp and no LT cant the best showings ive seen him do is beat a pheonix avatar and thats not so great a showing considering you just gotta kill the host, xorn did that, galactus almost ate one. Nope his powers are not that much above eternity in fact eternity has been said that he can overturn his judgements. Why do i sound like a child i only stated whats fact.

Originally posted by Mider
after he fought the spectre umm is that some kind of joke? what do you think he went out of that fight as fresh as a daisy???????? and not even the omega effects killed him it took other thinks to finish him off so that argument isnt great. and no Spectre doesnt have many low showings he says i didnt have that power then and he just raises his power and is able to defeat whoever he lost to he said that to nabu when he said i couldnt beat you before and nabu said that was dr fate not me, anyway are any of those beings you mentioned able to destroy the universe, no so why are you even bringing them up antimonitor killed so many universes they were no longer infinite. LT's power level has not been said to go up or down he has had a low showing against the IG, he was like i dont know if i can beat it, then when he fought korvac he ran away cause his judgement proved useless. Spectre loses sometimes then he can call forth more power and then just womp whoever womped him last. LT has trouble with Dr Strange dude, Spectre had trouble with Dr Fate true but later womped his source of power.......nabu who is stronger then shazam the wizard, he even broke the rock of eternity that is the source of all magic is it not? He defeated fifth dimension imps name me one of those people in your list that could beat a fifth dimension imp and no LT cant the best showings ive seen him do is beat a pheonix avatar and thats not so great a showing considering you just gotta kill the host, xorn did that, galactus almost ate one. Nope his powers are not that much above eternity in fact eternity has been said that he can overturn his judgements. Why do i sound like a child i only stated whats fact.

You're never stating fact. All you ever state is a buch of childish dribble that never makes any sense. You refuse to take in facts, just so you can say that you're right. Well Mider, here's a news flash.

WE ARE RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG! THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO DISPROVE US!

Now, this is for everybody else. Guys, this kid hates Marvel comics. This kid tried to argue that Slade could beat Iron Man and Doctor Doom. He starts threads like this to see Marvel characters go down. So, here's what I propose. If you have a scan of a Marvel character whupping up on a DC character, post it up.

i hate marvel comics? Thats why i own secret wars I and II, The IG Saga, the Korvac saga TPB which was expensive on amazon, Thanos The End and i did state fact sweetheart more then you ever do and your just as bad do you ever give up your arguments? no you always gotta take a post and critizise it cause you cant ever just bring comic book knowledge to this place i mean save your opinions about me for someone who cares and bring the comic facts no body cares what you think about me. And you wanna talk about stupid statements you think that Iron man could beat Wonder Women oh but he could with prep pfft so could the joker whats your point? Antimonitor is equal to galactus, another brillient deduction, ben grim wins against a guy who is fast enough to hit superman, and kid flash even while running but oh no he cant hit ben. and his weapons wont hurt ben i mean if wolvie cant even though he dont even have super strenth of speed then no one can, even though slade got meta grenades, super speed and the like yup your so brillient compared to me.

Originally posted by Mider
i hate marvel comics? Thats why i own secret wars I and II, The IG Saga, the Korvac saga TPB which was expensive on amazon, Thanos The End and i did state fact sweetheart more then you ever do and your just as bad do you ever give up your arguments? no you always gotta take a post and critizise it cause you cant ever just bring comic book knowledge to this place i mean save your opinions about me for someone who cares and bring the comic facts no body cares what you think about me. And you wanna talk about stupid statements you think that Iron man could beat Wonder Women oh but he could with prep pfft so could the joker whats your point? Antimonitor is equal to galactus, another brillient deduction, ben grim wins against a guy who is fast enough to hit superman, and kid flash even while running but oh no he cant hit ben. and his weapons wont hurt ben i mean if wolvie cant even though he dont even have super strenth of speed then no one can, even though slade got meta grenades, super speed and the like yup your so brillient compared to me.

This isn't about Slade, or Venom, or anything like that. You go around, being a jerk to anyone with a different opinion, and even when a DC character is outclassed, you still try to make a dumb argument. I don't care about what Marvel comics you own. I own a book on how to learn Biblical Greek. It doesn't mean that I don't hate it.
I think the fact of me being brilliant compared to you is kinda obvious at this point, considering I can actually spell the word.
Ever heard of punctuation? Evidently not, considering you can't even type. I've seen monkeys that can type better than you.
You ever heard of a jobber? That's what Slade is. He has jobber written all over him. I sincerely doubt he can tag Superman flying at full speed.
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2977/deathstroke1vg.th.jpg
The anti-monitor thing? Galactus can destroy galaxies with ease. I doubt blowing up the Anti-Monitor would be too much out of his reach.
I don't bring comic book knowledge here? I guarantee that more than fifteen people can vouch that I have put scans and information on these pages, but you have provided none. Practice what you preach, dick.
Once again, I have handed you your ass. I always have handed you your ass, and I always will hand you your ass. You go around these forums giving people who are educated and have proof a lot of shit because their opinion differs than you. You attack Marvel fans all of the time for no reason, and even though you claim to own Marvel comics, you still can't grasp reality that some Marvel characters are more powerful than some DC characters. You are an idiot, and never make a valid point. I'm gonna let a soldier tell you what you need to do.

http://www.webadept.net/images/soldier.jpg

there you go with my punctuation cause you cant point out a more valid argument. the Slade vs Ben fight please dont go there again you made yourself a fool once, Slade vs Venom, pal venom is at the most class fifty and slade has taken out bigger guns then that and has the tech to take venom out too thanks. Hand me my butt? You never have handed me anything pal. Maybe you have in your own fantasy world were your always right which is what you probably say to yourself in the morning. You havent handed me my butt ONCE in here so please dont start with that, and i dont own a scanner thanks and i dont have to resort to stupid insults on your level either i dont go cussing people out like you, you five year old, and galactus can destroy the galaxy with ease? Who told you this, at full power yes which we havent seen him at. He cant beat eternity at his normal power level and the antimonitor took on a guy who would whipe his butt with galactus only reason he lost is cause other powerful beings not as powerful as the spectre but still powerful, they came at him with the strongest attacks and he was to weak to take them on if the spectre hadent fought him he would have defeated the other beings he was killed by thats a plain fact, first he has to fight the spectre who is unbelievably powerful HE WON BY THE WAY, then he has to deal with precrisis darkseid with out even any rest from his previous battle i mean if you think any character can just come out of a fight with the spectre fresy is a daizy you know nothing.

Oh my gosh! It's a miracle! You actually punctuated a full sentence!

*hears Hallelujiah chorus*

Also, I don't really need to save my insults. However, I think I will, because it seems that the more you post, the dumber you sound. You are quite literally the only one on a forum of hundreds of people that has never given any scans or backup to your argument. You just claim it. I'm going to make my final point, then I'm reporting you to the mods. I'm not reporting the thread. I'm reporting you. Understand the difference.

1. You can't tell the difference between jobbing and full potential.
2. You constantly make claims that you can't back up.
3. You hound people from thread to thread, pissing them off and acting like a chicken with it's head cut off.
4. You constantly quote instances of SvFL when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
5. You constantly quote instances of Plot Induced Stupidity, when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
6. Even when people have proven you wrong, you still try to make a stupid argument for your case because you cannot admit that you can't prove your point.
7. You have the basic fanboy language. You treat your favorite characters like they are gods, and that they cannot be beaten.

That's the most that I have at this moment. I'm done with dealing with your crap. I'm reporting you to the mods right now. Also, you deserve THIS!

yeah right EVERYTHING i say is PIS but whatever you say is pure comic truth thats a lame excuse dont you think? Slade sure did do PIS but not in the instences i mentioned he did do those things to fast beings like flash 3 OR MORE TIMES GET OVER IT. He's taken out guys better then ben more then once alot more then once GET OVER IT TOO. i dont really care if you dont like how i post your just upset cause i come and refute your claims with better knowledge then you. You dont think that its PIS that juggs was thrashed by venom when other beings have not been shown to be able to who are stronger then venom he's class 50 tops juggs is over class 100 thank you. I dont care if you say those things were PIS i never used Identity crisis as an excuse for slade winning. The feats he did were more then once and thus not PIS even if you say they were get over it, shouldnt i say that its PIS that venom is so much stronger then he use to be, he is a spiderman foe in one comic then the next he is a world threat come on dude.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
Oh my gosh! It's a miracle! You actually punctuated a full sentence!

*hears Hallelujiah chorus*

Also, I don't really need to save my insults. However, I think I will, because it seems that the more you post, the dumber you sound. You are quite literally the only one on a forum of hundreds of people that has never given any scans or backup to your argument. You just claim it. I'm going to make my final point, then I'm reporting you to the mods. I'm not reporting the thread. I'm reporting you. Understand the difference.

1. You can't tell the difference between jobbing and full potential.
2. You constantly make claims that you can't back up.
3. You hound people from thread to thread, pissing them off and acting like a chicken with it's head cut off.
4. You constantly quote instances of SvFL when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
5. You constantly quote instances of Plot Induced Stupidity, when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
6. Even when people have proven you wrong, you still try to make a stupid argument for your case because you cannot admit that you can't prove your point.
7. You have the basic fanboy language. You treat your favorite characters like they are gods, and that they cannot be beaten.

That's the most that I have at this moment. I'm done with dealing with your crap. I'm reporting you to the mods right now. Also, you deserve THIS!

, exactly .

Originally posted by Marcus4600
This isn't about Slade, or Venom, or anything like that. You go around, being a jerk to anyone with a different opinion, and even when a DC character is outclassed, you still try to make a dumb argument. I don't care about what Marvel comics you own. I own a book on how to learn Biblical Greek. It doesn't mean that I don't hate it.
I think the fact of me being brilliant compared to you is kinda obvious at this point, considering I can actually spell the word.
Ever heard of punctuation? Evidently not, considering you can't even type. I've seen monkeys that can type better than you.
You ever heard of a jobber? That's what Slade is. He has jobber written all over him. I sincerely doubt he can tag Superman flying at full speed.
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2977/deathstroke1vg.th.jpg
The anti-monitor thing? Galactus can destroy galaxies with ease. I doubt blowing up the Anti-Monitor would be too much out of his reach.
I don't bring comic book knowledge here? I guarantee that more than fifteen people can vouch that I have put scans and information on these pages, but you have provided none. Practice what you preach, dick.
Once again, I have handed you your ass. I always have handed you your ass, and I always will hand you your ass. You go around these forums giving people who are educated and have proof a lot of shit because their opinion differs than you. You attack Marvel fans all of the time for no reason, and even though you claim to own Marvel comics, you still can't grasp reality that some Marvel characters are more powerful than some DC characters. You are an idiot, and never make a valid point. I'm gonna let a soldier tell you what you need to do.

http://www.webadept.net/images/soldier.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
by that reasoning, you could have listed any one of a bunch of characters pre-crisis who gave spectre trouble. why harp on AM?

and who said he's infallible? ages ago azmodeus battled spectre to a stalemate. by your reasoning, his whole existence has been a failure. after all, evil still exists and god granted him power to wipe it out. did/does god not want him to succeed? that fact alone proves he is fallible. throughout his history others have defied or stood up to him -- shaitan, kulak, beltane to name just a couple. hell, in one role, even psycho-pirate caused him some trouble! we know he can be harmed or defeated by sufficient magical powers or weapons.

Youre quite right. I didnt need to focus on the AM battle to highlight his Spectre being far from unstoppable and infallible when acting in accordance with gods will. However its an incident thats well documented and well known to most forum members allowing for easy reference during the course of this debate. Said event also happens to have been the reason behind Spectres depowerment and so is conclusive evidence that a Spectre with jurisdiction can and has failed in his duty.

Originally posted by leonidas
if god wills him to wipe out all evil, do you think he couldn't? had it really been god's wish to have spectre kill or destroy AM do you think he would have been unable to? this is why over the years writers have often had such a hard time dealing with the character.

People seem to be under the assumption that a Spectre with jurisdiction equates to God, that if Spectre is acting in accordance to his mission, that he can beat any and everything. That has never been shown to be the case. God doesnt order Spectre to take out certain enemies and power him up to ENSURE that he can. Where has that ever been shown or stated? Spectre is put on a general mission, (be it to combat supernatural forces that threaten all life, or to maintain a cosmic balance) and he is given abilities sufficient to enable him to carry out his mission as long as he makes the right decisions and acts wisely. Spectre then makes his own decisions about how best to carry out his God given mission.

The former assumption indicates an invincible, infallible Spectre which has never been shown on panel and is therefore incorrect. The latter is a Spectre that while he has abilities sufficient to carry out Gods will successfully, he is not omnipotent and will not win in all cases there is a margin for error, a possibility of failure and it all depends on him acting wisely and employing his abilities with care.

Spectres Pre Crisis mission was to battle all evil on Earth

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8506130294.jpg&s=x10

As such battling evil forces that threaten the planet is Spectre with jurisdiction. Spectre fighting Anti Monitor was in accordance with Gods will. He was punished by God however for not preventing the Crisis in the first place as stated by Juntais sources. My scans also say that he was punished for not having a significant impact in Crisis. If you take those reasons together and look at what happened on panel Spectre didnt get involved until the very end many lives were lost before that point and even after his intervention lives were lost. As per Juntais sources if Spectre was to tackle Anti Monitor prior to him amassing most of the power of a multiverse then he probably would have succeeded. (He was after all punished by God for not preventing Crisis suggesting that God did indeed give him power enough to do so had he acted in time) That all fits in perfectly with what i was saying. A Spectre with jurisdiction is not unbeatable, he is not powered up by God to take out specific enemies. He is given a powerset and put on a mission. Spectre then makes decisions on how best to adhere to his mission using those god given abilities. He can be wrong, he can make mistakes. Crisis illustrated this perfectly. For whatever reasons Spectre left it very late to intervene in Crisis and it seems by the time he did Anti Monitor was of a power level beyond Spectres power set to outright defeat in a confrontation. Spectres Pre Crisis mission was to vanquish evil forces that threatened Earth, Anti Monitor was within his jurisdiction. Thats why threads like Spectre ordered by God to take down so and so are just a waste of time. That doesnt happen.


Originally posted by leonidas
i think you're highlighting the wrong thing. what we should be asking is what does it say about the spectre/god relationship that spectre DID struggle with AM and these others. the spectre character has gone through a LOT of changes over the years, including a pre-crisis depowering before he was set upon his mission to maintain a cosmic balance. in THAT regard he did fail. but why would god allow this?

I believe ive already dealt with this. God presumably knew what the outcome of Crisis was going to be.

Originally posted by leonidas
essentially you're saying his battle with am shows he's not 'invincible'. you didn't need THAT battle to show that. jun's point (i think) is that if god truly IS acting through spectre (which i believe he has been shown to do in more recent incarnations) then he truly is invincible -- unless you're going to say an enemy could overcome god. since god certainly could have willed am's defeat, the question becomes why did god let it reach the point it did?

Theres nothing conclusive to show that. The Spectre is empowered by God, but i dont believe God acts directly through the Spectre as that would mean that God himself is infallible which isnt something i or anyone i presume are willing to consider. The Spectre is an agent of God, a being empowered by God but it isnt God manifest in creation. Days of Vengeance should dismiss such a notion from the minds of anyone with common sense.

we seem to agree on almost all points -- i certainly never said spectre is infallible or invincible. i was under the impression that god HAS worked through him though, at certain points -- ie, a 'special' case. if god WAS acting specifically through him, he WOULD be invincible. unless again, you're saying god can be thwarted. but i may be wrong -- i can't think of an instance where god specifically worked through him. maybe someone else knows of a time?

before crisis, a different definition of his task was keeping 'cosmic balance'. in that regard he DID fail miserably. if god knew the outcome, then he knew spectre would eventually prevail, or at least allow others the opportunity to prevail. presumably, he woudl also have KNOWN spectre was DESTINED to fail, so why bother having him do his job to begin with??

in any event, it is clear he erred in waiting too long to confront AM, but in the end he WAS ultimately responsible for AM's defeat, even though he had help.

he failed to keep the balance and was depowered and punished.

i'm not even sure what we were disagreeing about to begin with . . .

Spectre's mission from God was retconned in Ostrander and Mandrake's run. To "To understand why people choose the paths they take." That's the problem with those old bios, they don't take retcons into effect. Spectre doesn't directly solve every problem himself, but it's still his judgement. It would be pretty dumb if Anti-monitor appeared and Spectre just killed him outright. Wouldn't it?
You'll notice even against Parallax, Spectre made him use his energy, went off panel, and let the heros do it. Then said "Judgement is satisfied.". Then poured enough energy into Damage to remake the universe.
Spectre played his part. Just as he did against the Anti-Monitor.
He's not invinvible or infallible. He's the next best thing. He's the mightiest manifest character in DC, and it's been proven time and time again.
Needless to say, current Spectre is far mightier than Pre-Crisis Spectre was, and has hosts of more powers available ever since Ostrander reinvented the character.

Originally posted by leonidas
we seem to agree on almost all points -- i certainly never said spectre is infallible or invincible. i was under the impression that god HAS worked through him though, at certain points -- ie, a 'special' case. if god WAS acting specifically through him, he WOULD be invincible. unless again, you're saying god can be thwarted. but i may be wrong -- i can't think of an instance where god specifically worked through him. maybe someone else knows of a time?

before crisis, a different definition of his task was keeping 'cosmic balance'. in that regard he DID fail miserably. if god knew the outcome, then he knew spectre would eventually prevail, or at least allow others the opportunity to prevail. presumably, he woudl also have KNOWN spectre was DESTINED to fail, so why bother having him do his job to begin with??

in any event, it is clear he erred in waiting too long to confront AM, but in the end he WAS ultimately responsible for AM's defeat, even though he had help.

he failed to keep the balance and was depowered and punished.

i'm not even sure what we were disagreeing about to begin with . . .

I was trying to sort out what i believe to be a misconception of a Spectre with jurisdiction being invincible. Thats all. Its like people believed that equated to God telling Spectre to go out and perform a specific task and powered him up to the point where he couldnt fail at that appointed task. That really isnt the case.

Spectre carrys out Gods will, he's the embodiment of Gods wrath, but it isnt God manifest. God doesnt work directly through Spectre. He empowers him. Spectre is placed on mission, a set of guidelines to adhere to and a set of goals to accomplish and he makes his own decisions about how to adhere to said mission. Spectres pre-crisis mission was to fight evil forces. Therefore Spectre fighting Anti Monitor and anything evil which threatened life are examples of Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say Spectre has to go into "cast judgement mode" before any of us could consider Spectre any instance to be him acting with jurisdiction. That is wrong We have been told many a time what his mission was and Spectre acting in accordance with that mission is a Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say that a Spectre with jurisdiction can only be defeated by God.

A Spectre with jurisdiction has conclusively been shown on panel to not be omnipotent (he required the aid of the assembled mystics in crisis to depower AM) and is not invincible. Thats the only point i was trying to make and you said you think you sided with Juntai but now youre saying we seem to be agreeing which has left me very confused lol.

i wonder if this is possibly what marcus got banned for...

Anti Moniter Loses to Thanos.

You're twisting my words now..I never said it takes God to defeat him, I'm saying that's the only way he's been defeated in the instances you're pointing out.

Originally posted by Mr. Valentine
i wonder if this is possibly what marcus got banned for...

i suspect so but mider deserves it

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was trying to sort out what i believe to be a misconception of a Spectre with jurisdiction being invincible. Thats all. Its like people believed that equated to God telling Spectre to go out and perform a specific task and powered him up to the point where he couldnt fail at that appointed task. That really isnt the case.

Spectre carrys out Gods will, he's the embodiment of Gods wrath, but it isnt God manifest. God doesnt work directly through Spectre. He empowers him. Spectre is placed on mission, a set of guidelines to adhere to and a set of goals to accomplish and he makes his own decisions about how to adhere to said mission. Spectres pre-crisis mission was to fight evil forces. Therefore Spectre fighting Anti Monitor and anything evil which threatened life are examples of Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say Spectre has to go into "cast judgement mode" before any of us could consider Spectre any instance to be him acting with jurisdiction. That is wrong We have been told many a time what his mission was and Spectre acting in accordance with that mission is a Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say that a Spectre with jurisdiction can only be defeated by God.

A Spectre with jurisdiction has conclusively been shown on panel to not be omnipotent (he required the aid of the assembled mystics in crisis to depower AM) and is not invincible. Thats the only point i was trying to make and you said you think you sided with Juntai but now youre saying we seem to be agreeing which has left me very confused lol.

hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.

it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.

spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.

it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.

spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close. Exactly.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.

But where has such a Spectre been shown. This whole Spectre with jurisdiction stuff needs to be cleared up. In Pre crisis times everytime Spectre fought an evil force he was doing so with jurisdiction as performing such actions was in accordance with his God given mission. A Spectre with jurisdiction is just Spectre in line with his mission not a Spectre amped up by God to take out someone God wants taking out.

Originally posted by leonidas
it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.

If God was acting directly through anyone then they would be invincible.
Noones denying that. That hasnt been shown on panel however to be the relationship between God and the Spectre. Spectre is NOT God manifest he is an agent of God who God has set on a mission and given a set of powers sufficient to successfully carry out said mission as long as Spectre acts wisely and makes the right decisions. Thats the point ive been trying to make.

Originally posted by leonidas
spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close.

Cool.

Spectre is a piece of God, not a mere agent.
And when that piece decides to act in accordinance with the judgement of the bearer of the power, that's it.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is a piece of God, not a mere agent.
And when that piece decides to act in accordinance with the judgement of the bearer of the power, that's it.

Spectre is the embodiment of Gods wrath and as such is one with and represents the Logos in creation. We've had this debate before. Days of Vengeance pretty much tells you that the Spectre does NOT equate to the Logos unless youre willing to admit that God is fallible and can be manipulated by Alex Luthor.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Spectre is the embodiment of Gods wrath and as such is one with and represents the Logos in creation. We've had this debate before. Days of Vengeance pretty much tells you that the Spectre does NOT equate to the Logos unless youre willing to admit that God is fallible and can be manipulated by Alex Luthor. Spectre being involved in Day of Vengeance altogether is PIS, Spectre CANNOT exist on the mortal plane without a host. It's universal law. Yet he did anyways.

And he was manipulated third party, through the former wrath, Eclipso. Without a host to judge, it went crazy. It's been crazy since Jesus' death and needs a mortal to judge for its near infinite energy.


Needless to say he still did everything he set out to do in Day of Vengeance and no one stopped him. Until God interviened.... again.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre being involved in Day of Vengeance altogether is PIS, Spectre CANNOT exist on the mortal plane without a host. It's universal law. Yet he did anyways.

And he was manipulated third party, through the former wrath, Eclipso. Without a host to judge, it went crazy. It's been crazy since Jesus' death.


Needless to say he still did everything he set out to do in Day of Vengeance and no one stopped him.

So God is suceptible to PIS and the degradation of his mental faculties?

The supreme being is absolute Juntai. It just doesnt add up.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So God is suceptible to PIS and the degradation of his mental faculties?

The supreme being is absolute Juntai. It just doesnt add up. The PIS of him not supposed to be there is true. He cannot exist on the mortal plane without a host, that is fact. It held true through the history of the character UNTIL Day of Vengence.
The WRATH and the SPECTRE/LOGOZ and it's HOST are intertwined entities, if you actually READ Spectre comics, you'd know more of how to differentiate between them, but I have a hard time summing up 60 years worth of comics in a handful of sentences.
You're just having a complete misunderstanding of the character.

The Logoz is the power of God, an infinite powersource.
The Wrath is Gods blind anger, held in check by certain univeral laws, such as the fact it must be tied to a human host. It used to act as it should, until Jesus died, and it deemed the universe must be destroyed for it's heinous act. Essentially, it kind of went insane.
The Host is the Judge to help guide it.


And no matter how much you try to debase him, Spectre is still the top manifest being in DC. As stated earlier, the characters themselves recognize it as such as well.

Originally posted by Juntai
The PIS of him not supposed to be there is true. He cannot exist on the mortal plane without a host, that is fact.
The WRATH and the SPECTRE/LOGOZ and it's HOST are intertwined entities, if you actually READ Spectre comics, you'd know more of how to differentiate between them, but I have a hard time summing up 60 years worth of comics in a handful of sentences. It held true through the history of the character UNTIL Day of Vengence.
You're just having a complete misunderstanding of the character.

Nope. Youre using a few abiguous lines from the 4th volume to try and equate Spectre to God. In volumes 1 to 3 Spectre wasnt an aspect of God so why you'd need to sum up 60 years of comics for me i really dont know.

You claim the Spectre Force to be one and the same as the Logoz but how can that be when the Logos created the Spectre Force?

Spectre saying i am the Logos is the equivalent of Rachel Summer ssaying i am the Phoenix. Does that mean Rachel is literally the life force of creation?

Not anymore than it means the Spectre Force is one and the same as The Word/Logos. The same SpectreForce that was far from omnipotent, was deranged and got manipulated into serving Alex Luthor.

SpectreForce equates to God?

Doesnt fit, unless youre willing to state that God is fallible.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Youre using a few abiguous lines from the 4th volume to try and equate Spectre to God. In volumes 1 to 3 Spectre wasnt an aspect of God so why you'd need to sum up 60 years of comics for me i really dont know.

You claim the Spectre Force to be one and the same as the Logoz but how can that be when the Logos created the Spectre Force?

Spectre saying i am the Logos is the equivalent of Rachel Summer ssaying i am the Phoenix. Does that mean Rachel is literally the life force of creation?

Not anymore than it means the Spectre Force is one and the same as The Word/Logos. The same SpectreForce that was far from omnipotent, was deranged and got manipulated into serving Alex Luthor.

SpectreForce equates to God?

Doesnt fit, unless youre willing to state that God is fallible.
All of what you just said there proves your misunderstanding of the character.

Originally posted by Juntai


And no matter how much you try to debase him, Spectre is still the top manifest being in DC. As stated earlier, the characters themselves recognize it as such as well.

The Brothers are debatably beyond him as potential successors of God. Lucifer disregards Spectre and hasnt Michael defeated him before? And yet the Spectre equates to God?

Originally posted by Juntai
All of what you just said there proves your misunderstanding of the character.

So youre saying that God is fallible. He cant keep his blind rage in check and its this we saw in Days of Vengeance?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Brothers are debatably beyond him as potential successors of God. Lucifer disregards Spectre and hasnt Michael defeated him before? And yet the Spectre equates to God? Micheal defeated the The Wrath through the will of the Logoz.
Once again, complete misunderstanding of the character.

Spectre with a fallen angel host conquered hell with a snap of his finger, I doubt Lucifer just disregards him.
Spectre has also saved Micheal in history on occasion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre saying that God is fallible. He cant keep his blind rage in check and its this we saw in Days of Vengeance? Depends on what your view of 'in check' is as compared to Gods view of the same. The Wrath serves it's purpose, even when banished from The Logoz, it continued doing the same in other bodies.

Originally posted by Juntai
Micheal defeated the The Wrath through the will of the Logoz.
Once again, complete misunderstanding of the character.

Spectre with a fallen angel host conquered hell with a snap of his finger, I doubt Lucifer just disregards him.
Spectre has also saved Micheal in history on occasion.

And yet none of this changes the fact that the Spectre Force equating to God just doesnt add up.

For that to be the case God would have to be infallible. Going by your interpretation in Days of Vengeance The Spectre Force got manipulated by Alex Luthor and then got outwitted by Nabu into getting the attention of himself, who subsequently punished himself

In the first two volumes Spectre was just an agent of God with near-infinite power, volume 2 was a punished Spectre rolling out of Crisis, Volumes 3 made him an aspect of God and more powerful than ever, and gave us definition into the seperate entities, as well as past Wraths/ and hosts. Volume 4 took it the next step and showed us how it all works.

Originally posted by Juntai
In the first two volumes Spectre was just an agent of God with near-infinite power, volume 2 was a punished Spectre rolling out of Crisis, Volumes 3 made him an aspect of God and more powerful than ever, and gave us definition into the seperate entities, as well as past Wraths/ and hosts. Volume 4 took it the next step and showed us how it all works.

Volume 3 Spectre was a fallen angel who God transformed into an embodiment of his wrath. One with God but not equating to God. So far from an aspect. In volume 4 you took a scene open to interpretation and a few ambiguous lines and the Spectre fan within jumped the gun and said SpectreForce equals God. Thats basically what youre saying. An aspect is just another side of the same coin.

So basically you think that God can be manipulated and outwitted and even reduced to a deranged state on panel?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet none of this changes the fact that the Spectre Force equating to God just doesnt add up.

For that to be the case God would have to be infallible. Going by your interpretation in Days of Vengeance The Spectre Force got manipulated by Alex Luthor and then got outwitted by Nabu into getting the attention of himself, who subsequently punished himself
Once again, it's you not understanding the character at all.

God in it's whole exists beyond The Wrath and the Logoz, just two of several pieces of the whole. The Wrath is a personality. It exists to kill and destroy and correct the universe, not to understand, that is the Hosts job. The Logoz is the infinite power which the user and the wrath tap.The Host is course, a human soul.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Volume 3 Spectre was a fallen angel who God transformed into an embodiment of his wrath. One with God but not equating to God. So far from an aspect. In volume 4 you took a scene open to interpretation and a few ambiguous lines and the Spectre fan within jumped the gun and said SpectreForce equals God. Thats basically what youre saying. An aspect is just another side of the same coin.

So basically you think that God can be manipulated and outwitted and even reduced to a deranged state on panel? Read the above, this also is just misunderstanding of the difference of the character.

Volume 3 had the fallen angel's being completely removed from existance, but it was instead filled with the power and wrath of God. The angel no longer existed at all. That was it's punishment as learned in issue 60.

Gotta run to the eye doctor to pick up contacts. ttyl.

Originally posted by Juntai
Once again, it's you not understanding the character at all.

God in it's whole exists beyond The Wrath and the Logoz, just two of several pieces of the whole. The Wrath is a personality. It exists to kill and destroy and correct the universe, not to understand, that is the Hosts job. The Logoz is the infinite power which the user and the wrath tap.The Host is course, a human soul.

Can you refer to where any of this is actually stated because right now im thinking its just your interpretation of your Spectre comics.

The Logos is the Word. It is an aspect of God and therefore equates to God. Just a different side of the same coin. The Spectre Force up until now has been a being empowered by God, transformed to embody his wrath in creation. Because of said ambiguous scene in Volume 4 youre now trying to say that the Spectre Force equals God. If that is the case then God would have to be very much fallible. If the Spectre Force equalled God then would the Lords of Order and Chaos of DC and Shazam have stood up to him and defied the will of God?

Yes i forgot God had a temporary mental breakdown and got manipulated into helping Alex Luthor.

It really doesnt add up Juntai. No matter how much you want it to. Id really wait for the next Spectre volume to clear things up

Originally posted by Juntai
Gotta run to the eye doctor to pick up contacts. ttyl.

Cool. Speak 2ya later. Nothing serious i hope.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can you refer to where any of this is actually stated because right now im thinking its just your interpretation of your Spectre comics.

The Logos is the Word. It is an aspect of God and therefore equates to God. Just a different side of the same coin. The Spectre Force up until now has been a being empowered by God, transformed to embody his wrath in creation. Because of said ambiguous scene in Volume 4 youre now trying to say that the Spectre Force equals God. If that is the case then God would have to be very much fallible. If the Spectre Force equalled God then would the Lords of Order and Chaos of DC and Shazam have stood up to him and defied the will of God?

Yes i forgot God had a temporary mental breakdown and got manipulated into helping Alex Luthor.

It really doesnt add up Juntai. No matter how much you want it to. Id really wait for the next Spectre volume to clear things up are tied to this powersource and use it to fullfil it's purpose. To be judge, jury and executioner and redeemer, guider of souls and guardian of the multiverse.
I'm trying to help you discern the difference in the character...Does that clear anything up at all? I could try a different approach I guess, but I think that breaks it down as accurately as can be described without going through all the comics page by page.

Nah gotta still agree with GS here Juntai, The Spectre Force is a power force from The Word/Logoz given to Aztar who then is renamed The Spectre basically because thats what he is now. The Spectre himself is NOT a piece of God, The Word/Logos is a piece of God/The Presence. It clearly shows Hal throwing off The Spectre/Wrath in Volume 4 and going deeper in the force and found his power force which is The Word/Logos. The Spectre can be killed and destroyed. Every time that I've read anything to do with The Spectre he talks about God as being someone else or not being him. There is way to much info that says The Spectre is a agent of God and not a piece of God himself, just seems your misunderstanding The Spectre's history. Aztar/Spectre chose Lucifer and went against The Word/Logos during the War in Heaven. Does it make much sense for Aztar to be going against himself?? When Jesus died The Spectre was released and went to destroy the whole world, Michael though stopped this in the name of The Word/Forgiveness because forgiveness is more powerful then hate and rage.

Originally posted by kevdude
Nah gotta still agree with GS here Juntai, The Spectre Force is a power force from The Word/Logoz given to Aztar who then is renamed The Spectre basically because thats what he is now. The Spectre himself is NOT a piece of God, The Word/Logos is a piece of God/The Presence. It clearly shows Hal throwing off The Spectre/Wrath in Volume 4 and going deeper in the force and found his power force which is The Word/Logos. The Spectre can be killed and destroyed. Every time that I've read anything to do with The Spectre he talks about God as being someone else or not being him. There is way to much info that says The Spectre is a agent of God and not a piece of God himself, just seems your misunderstanding The Spectre's history. Aztar/Spectre chose Lucifer and went against The Word/Logos during the War in Heaven. Does it make much sense for Aztar to be going against himself?? When Jesus died The Spectre was released and went to destroy the whole world, Michael though stopped this in the name of The Word/Forgiveness because forgiveness is more powerful then hate and rage. Wrong, The Logoz itself told him exactly what took place. Why would you discard it? Besides half of what you just said being completely made up you're also confusing the Wrath, Host, Logoz trio which have all existed as seperate entities or even combinations of two.

Aztar can't go against himself, what are you talking about? Aztar rebelled against God in the battle of Heaven, but repented and then had his entire being erased from existance and replaced with Gods wrath and power. Which we now know is set up differently than originally written. The Logoz is the power of the Spectre, The Wrath is how percieve how the aspect of God works, guiding the souls. And these are tied to a human host. This was also told to us in Spectre's comics themselves.

Originally posted by Juntai
are tied to this powersource and use it to fullfil it's purpose. To be judge, jury and executioner and redeemer, guider of souls and guardian of the multiverse.
I'm trying to help you discern the difference in the character...Does that clear anything up at all? I could try a different approach I guess, but I think that breaks it down as accurately as can be described without going through all the comics page by page.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to be difficult, i just really dont agree with what youre saying. None of what youre saying is shown conclusively in the comics, this is just how you've interpreted them. You must understand that and also that what youre saying doesnt fit in with the previous volumes and most certainly doesnt fit in with Spectres appearances most notably his ones in Days of Vengeance.

Your interpretation paints God as a flawed fallible being whose actions and very being can and have been shaped by the perceptions of his creation. Thats not even considerable so your interpretation is flawed from the start.

None of what you've said changes or explains away the fact that the SpectreForce itself, the very thing you'd like us to believe equates to God went on a destructive rampage across the universe after being manipulated to carry out the will of a single selfish individual. (Alex Luthor) Saying that the Wrath acts how the universes perceives it should doesnt explain that away and help your case. Especially when the mystics of DC, Shazam and the Lords of Order and Chaos perceived the Spectres actions as wrong and against his role and stood against him. In the end God intervened directly and dealt with the Wrath. Yet you'd like us to believe that the Wrath equates to God?

I still believe that the Wrath is Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods Wrath and that he represents the Logos, the word of God in creation and carries out its will. While it is one with God, transformed by his divine power he doesnt equate to God. He is not an aspect. An aspect is another side of God like a personality. Would you really have us believe that God is so flawed that part of his being can run amok in and go out of control after being manipulated and outwitted by his creations? Aztar was transformed to act as the embodiment of Gods will, that does not make him an aspect. An aspect equates to God. The Wrath is a representative of God, the face of the Logos in creation. Connected with God but far from equating to God. That explains his fallibility and fits in with how Spectre has been depicted on panel. Your interpretation equates to God being flawed. Such a portrayal would not be permitted in a mainstream DC comic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont get me wrong, im not trying to be difficult, i just really dont agree with what youre saying. None of what youre saying is shown conclusively in the comics, this is just how you've interpreted them. You must understand that and also that what youre saying doesnt fit in with the previous volumes and most certainly doesnt fit in with Spectres appearances most notably his ones in Days of Vengeance.

Your interpretation paints God as a flawed fallible being whose actions and very being can and have been shaped by the perceptions of his creation. Thats not even considerable so your interpretation is flawed from the start.

None of what you've said changes or explains away the fact that the SpectreForce itself, the very thing you'd like us to believe equates to God went on a destructive rampage across the universe after being manipulated to carry out the will of a single selfish individual. (Alex Luthor) Saying that the Wrath acts how the universes perceives it should doesnt explain that away and help your case. Especially when the mystics of DC, Shazam and the Lords of Order and Chaos perceived the Spectres actions as wrong and against his role and stood against him. In the end God intervened directly and dealt with the Wrath. Yet you'd like us to believe that the Wrath equates to God?

I still believe that the Wrath is Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods Wrath and that he represents the Logos, the word of God in creation and carries out its will. While it is one with God, transformed by his divine power he doesnt equate to God. He is not an aspect. An aspect is another side of God like a personality. Would you really have us believe that God is so flawed that part of his being can run amok in and go out of control after being manipulated and outwitted by his creations? Aztar was transformed to act as the embodiment of Gods will, that does not make him an aspect. An aspect equates to God. The Wrath is a representative of God, the face of the Logos in creation. Connected with God but far from equating to God. That explains his fallibility and fits in with how Spectre has been depicted on panel. Your interpretation equates to God being flawed. Such a portrayal would not be permitted in a mainstream DC comic. No, what I said, is certainly what is written in the comics. And you'd know that if you actually read them and stopped trying to piece together your own wild theory on how it works without having read any..

I never said The Wrath IS God, I said its a piece of God. And that is certainly as well written in the comics.
As is the three dimensions of the character I pointed out.
It's ALL supported perfectly on panel.

Volume one was completely retconned out of existance by volume 3, given a complete origin retcon. Volumes 2 3 and 4 are the only ones that matter, and in one of them he was mostly powerless.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, what I said, is certainly what is written in the comics. And you'd know that if you actually read them and stopped trying to piece together your own wild theory on how it works without having read any..

Who said i hadn't read any my friend?

Im in the process of collecting all the appropriate reading materials and have been since our last debate a few months back. I have read enough.

Give it a month and you'll regret making me do this