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Coleman Trebor as portrayed in AOTC. Although he's a council member he isn't particularly strong; he's more of a diplomat than a fighter. He did manage to block two of Jango's bolts, though, before dying, even though he wasn't even expecting Jango to be up there and was focused on Dooku. We all know ESB Luke. Fights near the end of ESB, on Cloud City.


Here goes: Vader chucks an onject at Luke with the Force. It hits and breaks the window. The air current sucks Luke out of the window.

Meanwhile, Trebor is on Cloud City, near where Luke is. Luke starts walking cautiously through that thing he walks through in ESB right before Vader attacks him for the last part of their duel. Instead of Vader jumping, out however, Trebor walks towards him and ignites his lightsaber. Luke ignites his lightsaber and they start to fight.


Who walks out alive"

Even Luke's ESB dueling is more impressive than Trebor's Niman "mastery"

Is Luke tired... or is the story just to entertain us?

I've seen Luke block Blaster Bolts and live from trained Imperial officers that were possibly clones of the man who killed Trebor.


Although this doesn't prove much in the line of Lightsaber combat, it shows Luke has a possible overpower on Coleman.


And the same person who killed Vader and took down Sidious is going to be defeated by a hammerhead council member who blocked two shots from a gun and died?


Is Coleman really going to take down the Jedi who became THE Jedi.

trebor wins

Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
trebor wins

luk3 w1nz

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Is Luke tired... or is the story just to entertain us? Luke's tired. After he was sucked out of that room and fell down, he was already sweating and bleeding. Trebor lightsaber throws and Luke's done for.

At that point, Luke was still giving Vader trouble.


Luke wins.

I agree with Sorgo. Luke could continue to contend with Vader at that point, so he could take Coleman.

Uh, Luke's as tired as he is at that point in the film. But he's probably not that tired, he didn't look tired. I'd say at that point of the film he's at his ESB prime.

You have? When? I can't remember that. Maybe I just can't remember but please tell me when. Also, Jango was alot more advanced than any Stormtrooper, even the Clones. He has better weapons, armor and far more experience and, presumably, recieved better training. Plus he's killed Jedi before he fought Coleman and Coleman wasn't expecting him. He was focused entirely on Dooku.






I think Trebor wins in a close one. Luke's bruised up but not that tired and he'd put up a good fight. But Trebor's had more training and stuff. But IMO it could go either way. idk.

coleman = master on the council
luke = 6 weeks training

Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
coleman = master on the council
luke = 6 weeks training
More like:
coleman = master on the council
luke = 3 years of training, + possesses more potential than almost any Jedi/Sith ever.


But I do agree that Trebor would probably win.

Vader still had significant trouble defeating Luke. Luke almost got the upper hand and slashed him once.



He blocks a set of Speeder Bolts on Endor. Speeder bolts are larger than Jango's Pistol bolts.

Oh, they also pack more power.

If Coleman wasn't expecting Jango, why did he block some of his Bolts? Only to die seconds later? Jango was superior.

Luke also underwent extensive training by master Yoda and was fit to the max.








Eh... I haven't seen Coleman pull off anything spectacular except when he got shot off of a balcony.

Luke is like... The Jedi.

But Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke, he was just testing him. And he still toom Luke down and had his saber at Luke's throat. He could have killed him right there if he had wanted to.

So what? This is ESB Luke, not ROTJ Luke.

Did I say he wasn't? No, I only stated the obvious; Trebor leapt up in that top area intending to kill Dooku. Before he could go for Dooku Jango shot at him. Trebor, unexpecting it, still managed to block two shots.

Maybe in NJO, but not in ESB.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke, he was just testing him. And he still toom Luke down and had his saber at Luke's throat. He could have killed him right there if he had wanted to.

You're wrong.

If he was testing him. His own son. For a potential apprentice, why would he make him less powerful by cutting his hand off? That's where the bullshit lies.

Vader never had his Saber at Luke's throat! Luke climbed away from him on the Podium. The only thing Vader did close to that was prop his Saber forward when Luke was at least five feet away from him.





Fine. In ANH, he blocked pin sized Bolts from a Test Droid while blindfolded.



No! Dooku ordered Jango to kill Trebor and Trebor turned around when Dooku signaled Jango. Trebor was prepared.

Omg, Sorgo, he was testing him. "He will join us or die." He cut off his hand to end the duel. Then they could actually talk and Vader could try and lure him.

http://massassi.yavin4.com/sw_img/e5clou55.jpg


"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living... that's something else."

Uh huh. And di anyone else see this version of AOTC?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Omg, Sorgo, he was testing him. "He will join us or die." He cut off his hand to end the duel. Then they could actually talk and Vader could try and lure him.

http://massassi.yavin4.com/sw_img/e5clou55.jpg


"Luke glances at the instrument complex floating away. At that instant, Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right forearm"

^ Vader got him when he was looking away. Real good takedown there, eh?


"Luke answers by rolling sideways and thrusting his sword at Vader so viciously that he nicks Vader on the shoulder. The black armour sparks and smokes and Vader seems to be hurt"

Don't try to tell me Vader wasn't having trouble in the fight.

Vader was going all out. Throwing heavy masses of shit at him and trying to kill him with his Lightsaber. He was going all out to test Luke to see if he was strong enough to even remotely compare to Vader. That's how the Sith work.

If you aren't strong enough, you die. That's the theocracy and that's how the gears turn. Luke wasn't doing too bad and Vader was not holding back. It doesn't indicate that in the script and GL never mentions that Vader holds back. It's bullshit.


"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living... that's something else."

Were the CIS the Living? They killed Two hundred Jedi.

This was technology pre-ANH, by the way.

They were still pin sized and Luke still could see.





Don't be such a Moron!

Go watch the god damn movie right now, DS19!

He is ready for it. I'm tired of you trying to pull that shit off. Coleman died because he sucked, for christs sake!


HE SUCKED! GET OVER IT!

This is coming from one of the worst debaters in these forums? Hahaha!



Did you not read what I just posted? Luke was distracted by an item flying into the shaft after Vader had finished one of his missed swings.

Prove that Luke would be did. Hell, prove he wasn't going all out! Lucas never mentioned he wasn't, the script doesn't imply it and the Movie doesn't imply it.



Yeah, he got mad. He's a Sith. Way to state the obvious. He wanted him disarmed because of the fear of defeat.

And Dooku could have Force choked Anakin in RotS, Maul could have done it to Kenobi, Sidious could have done it to Mace...

Please, man! Vader was TESTING him. And No, he could not have easily just cut off his head.

He was testing his Physical Ability and his Finesse. He was GOING ALL OUT during the process. He wouldn't go easy on him. That is NOT the Sith way, sorry to say.



I'm wrong in my post? Listen to your arguements! Here, I'll title them.

UNFOUNDED BULLSHIT


Vader had feelings for his Son? Prove it.

Vader was proclaiming excuses? Prove it.


Those were not excuses. Sidious wanted Luke as a powerful ally. Vader was following orders, not being compassionate.


You complete MORON! He didn't view him as a threat because he was powerful.


I wonder why he became one of the most powerful Jedi in the series!


Sidious and Vader could sense his power. And he was so powerful, even the almighty Vader had trouble with him.


That's the way it rolled.

And by the way, making an unfounded statement like I'm the worst debater on here, has no bearing when referring to your intellectual capacity, and goes to show you're not too sharp with debating when replying with an irrelevant rebuttal. When I do actually take the time to "debate" rather than simply discuss, I do so with facts and logic instead of what I WANT to be the reality of the situation. If someone can disprove it, I'm all ears and open to accept what they are saying. If I don't feel what they say proves their point or disproves my point, I will continue in my pursuit to convince them of the facts at hand. But if I am wrong, I will concede to that. Not just get angry and run off at the mouth. And when I called you the dumbest person I've seen on here, I wasn't angry (and still not) and it doesn't mean you are the dumbest person here period, but you are the dumbest person I have encountered yet. But still, I'm not referring to your intelligence level per se, I'm referring to the way YOU "debate" and your total disregard for other people's opinions and statements, and just the general way you conduct and carry yourself. Just to clarify...having said that, i might want apologize ahead of time for the basement remark...it has nothing to do with your apparent lack of common sense of Star Wars. And note, I'm writing this before you replyed to my last post.

Originally posted by darthsith19
More like:
coleman = master on the council
luke = 3 years of training, + possesses more potential than almost any Jedi/Sith ever.


But I do agree that Trebor would probably win.

potential really doesnt mean anything in this fight

and how is that possible, if by the time of ROTJ he only had 6 months. im pretty sure he had 6 weeks by ESB. it says so in the ROTJ Luke vs Qui Gon thread

im pretty sure a master could stand up to a "half trained" jedi.
and GL stated that he was half trained by the time of ROTJ, so im giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

Luke had some weeks of training, but even if that was under Yoda and Obi-Wan, he's not going against a fully trained master of the Council and coming out alive.

WTF!? Dude Luke at ESB is hardly trained. Colem Trebor while far from anything exemplary is certianly better than a farmboy who's greatest feat was using the Force to grab his lightsaber or lift rocks while upsidedown.

Oh, here we go. The same ol Bullshit.

"Look at me as I assume other peoples life while being a complete hypocrite! lol!"

^ You.






Go read the script, son.





Too bad Luke was no little kid and too bad Luke was younger and faster than Vader. TOO BAD he had the potential to be the greatest Jedi ever... And ended up proving it.

We aren't talking about Baseball bats or kids.

We are talking about a Young, fast boy and a Cybernetically enhanced man playing with Lightsabers, which are obviously physically different than Baseball bats.





All excuses.

He choked Kenobi to get him out of the way. Maul also killed the Order's best master at the time and Sidious can still Force choke.




The fact that he couldn't slice off Luke's head.

Luke was blocking his shots and before Vader tried to get him, he was missing. Hell, the reason Luke got his hand cut off is because Luke was glaring at a piece of Metal that Vader hit because he MISSED.







The sole reason he addressed him as "Son" was another persuasion maneuver to get him to turn. He wanted to look like he was acting as a father figure for plus points to turn Luke. That's just obvious. He wasn't being dear in ESB. That's ridiculous. He's a damn Sith Lord.

Exactly! Of course Vader wanted to turn him! But he would not hold back on him. He was testing his strength. If he couldn't compare to Vader, why would Vader want a useless Sith on their side? It's do or die with the Sith. Vader EXPLAINED that.






Sidious also mentioned that he could destroy him and Vader. That's why Vader suggested it. If one young man is powerful enough to destroy two experience Sith, are you going to turn him? Or kill him?

Common sense, buddy.








Yes, Yes you are. Vader viewed him as an asset. Not a threat.





What the hell? There were plenty of Jedi with more Experience and more opportunities to grow powerful but Luke did it with two dead Jedi Ghosts and himself. He created the most powerful Jedi Order ever.

It wasn't because he was alone. Damn, that's a horrid excuse. Actually, if he had more experienced Jedi around him, he'd probably have an even better chance!

And he wasn't the only one left. There were O66 survivors, such as Quinlan.




Wow. Wrong yet again.

"Luke's hatred forces Vader
to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a
vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his
father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword
to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off
at the wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the
mechanical stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke
moves over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark
Lord's throat. The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased
agitation."


Luke forced his Father into defeat and submission. Once again, nothing indicates Vader was holding back. GL Said nothing. Movie said nothing. Script said nothing. He trying to get Luke by throwing his Lightsaber at him and then he cut the support line to have him collapse in the small Bridge.




That's the way it rolled.

Yup. And it must be said, the better swordsman does not always win.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Yup. And it must be said, the better swordsman does not always win.

This is true and has been seen before throughout the movies.

Most notably, ROTJ Luke vs. Vader, and ROTS Anakin vs. Dooku.

Han Solo vs the Taun Taun being the most notable example of course.

Ok, if there were more jedi left from surviving order 66, then why would Yoda say, "when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." ?

That doesn't sound like there's more Jedi remaining. That just goes back to books vs. movies.


So you're going to sit there and tell me that Vader wasn't acting soft in the hallway of the ATAT, when he was talking to Luke?

"OB1 once thought as you do (with a hint of sadness in his voice)."
"it is too late for me, son."
THEN when the stormtroopers came in he was acting hard, until they left, and he sat there looking out the window in thought.
I never said that Luke didn't earn his victory, but i don't think that Vader/Anakin was going all out.

Sorgo, that's shameful.

Luke gets his ass curbstomped at this point. Coleman's not going to hold back as Vader did.

Originally posted by IKC
Sorgo, that's shameful.

Luke gets his ass curbstomped at this point. Coleman's not going to hold back as Vader did.

Shameful my ass.


Unfortunately, Vader wasn't holding back.


No one wants to provide any evidence that Coleman has the ability to defeat Luke except for "He's a Jedi Master!"

Coleman was not much of a fighter, as you can see he gets owned by Jango Fett (even if Jango did caught him by surprise). Jedi are not made Masters just because they are wise and all that crap. He must have had at least a few accomplishments. He has also completed his Jedi training, and was on the Council (another testimony to his skills, although I'm sure they still suck pretty bad)

Luke, however, has a deeper connection to the Force, and could rely on his instincts to help him. Sorgo, can you please tell me where it says Vader was not holding back because I honestly dont want to read everything everyone has posted . This might sound a bit confusing, but between ESB and ROTJ has not that much time, so Luke was probably already pretty advanced with his lightsaber.

Coleman Trebor was a Jedi Master, and therefore had at least some proficincy with the blade. He has completed his Jedi Training fully, and undoubtedly put up a good fight against Jango Fett (of course he would have been killed in the end). Sorgo, you have said at the beginning of the post, that Luke deflected bolts by men who were possibly clones of Jango. Possibly clones of Jango, not Jango himself or even trained by Jango (those clones died LONG ago of old age). Imperial Stormtroopers are without a doubt fine marksmen, but unfortuneately, unless you can prove me wrong, that piece of evidence counts for nothing.

Coleman Trebor, fully fledged Jedi Master, member of the Jedi Council, will win with more or less quite a bit of difficulty

Originally posted by Council#13
Coleman was not much of a fighter, as you can see he gets owned by Jango Fett (even if Jango did caught him by surprise). Jedi are not made Masters just because they are wise and all that crap. He must have had at least a few accomplishments. He has also completed his Jedi training, and was on the Council (another testimony to his skills, although I'm sure they still suck pretty bad)

Luke, however, has a deeper connection to the Force, and could rely on his instincts to help him. Sorgo, can you please tell me where it says Vader was not holding back because I honestly dont want to read everything everyone has posted . This might sound a bit confusing, but between ESB and ROTJ has not that much time, so Luke was probably already pretty advanced with his lightsaber.

Coleman Trebor was a Jedi Master, and therefore had at least some proficincy with the blade. He has completed his Jedi Training fully, and undoubtedly put up a good fight against Jango Fett (of course he would have been killed in the end). Sorgo, you have said at the beginning of the post, that Luke deflected bolts by men who were possibly clones of Jango. Possibly clones of Jango, not Jango himself or even trained by Jango (those clones died LONG ago of old age). Imperial Stormtroopers are without a doubt fine marksmen, but unfortuneately, unless you can prove me wrong, that piece of evidence counts for nothing.

Coleman Trebor, fully fledged Jedi Master, member of the Jedi Council, will win with more or less quite a bit of difficulty


Actually, you should ask yourself where it says Vader WAS Holding back, Council #13.


It's an outright silly assumption. No proof for it at all.

Among other things, some of the stronger evidence for Vader holding back is the speed with which he pwned Luke after Luke got a lucky hit on his shoulder.

Originally posted by Fox5
I can say the same about where it says Vader WASN"T holding back.There's no proof to that either.

Good point!

why would vader be going all out?

Luke just pulls out his blaster and shoots Trebor's ass.

Meh, not close enough. A winner is a winner.

Good damn, Sorgo, we've had this debate before and at the end you admitted that Vader wasn't going all out. And now you've changed your mind again?

Yes, because they outnumbered the Jedi like a five thousand to one!

And so was the remote droid.

Yet, in a real fight he'd have been dead before he could even block a bolt. He got shot what? Twice, right?

Wow, way to lose your temper and way to prove your point.


There were three years between ANH and ESB. I never said he had three years of good training. Alot of it was him training himself.


Wow, Sorgo. To bad the movie contradicts the script.

He still wasn't looking and he did not get a fair chance to defend himself. Actually, I could even state Vader got lucky at that point.





Because recently I've been searching for proof that Vader held back because I heard there was some. But I found nothing. Not a single thing AT ALL indicating Vader held back during that fight. Nothing.





You mean one thousand to two hundred?

Let's not forget the fact that the two hundred were Lightsaber wielding force users and the thousand were Battle Droids with less capability than Jedi. And the Jedi still got smashed. Until the Clones came to save them.






The remote droid was ANH Technology. It was in ANH and I'm sure they're not going to use a twenty year old Remote Droid. Ah god.






Who got shot twice? Coleman?

Or Luke?




I'm quite tired of your useless semantics.





Along with Kenobi's Ghost and Yodas help. They were PERSONALLY training him one on one.




Wow, DS19. Too bad they don't and too bad they are the foundation for the movie.

Originally posted by Faunus
You could, but that would be nonsensical. Tell me; when in the movies did Luke look away from the seven-foot Sith in front of him?



a) Obvious emotional conflict: ''We'll rule the galaxy as father and son.''
b) Instead of thursting his lightsaber through Luke's face, he lets him get up and back away.
c) He toys with him using one arm at the beginning of the fight, and still floors him - hell, Luke throws himself down the stairs to get away.
d) He didn't Force-choke him, push him, or crush his skull at the window.

If you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back.



More like several hundred infantry and super battle droids, plus shielded droideka, plus flying Geonosians with sonic weapons that could turn a humanoid into much - as well as land-based sonic cannons, plus a hidden General Grievous tearing Jedi in the catacombs to shreds.



It was several thousand droids, Geonosians, etc.



Lmao! Are you seriously comparing an old ball used to train Padawans to a battle droid created to kill? Next it'll be the Death Star garbage compactor destroying a Trade Federation warship.



Trebor got shot by ''the deadliest man in the galaxy.'' Luke got shot by a little droid that we see Padawans easily handling.



Right; do you have any proof that Kenobi visited Luke once between ANH and ESB? And what version of the OT has Yoda ''personally training' 'Luke for three years before ESB?



Right. So Yoda laughed off Dooku's onslaught, spun into action and beat the crap out of him, knocked his lightsaber away, and pounced onto his shoulders, ready to stab him through the heart. Correct?

thank you.

I detest having to repeat myself:

When he got his hand cut off.





Any Sith could have done that to any Jedi! I guess Sidious was holding back against Mace because he didn't instantly force choke him or push him out of a window. Oh, and because Maul didn't force choke Kenobi or use another offensive forcep ower to instantly crush him, he must have been holding back too.

Obvious emotional conflict? I think not. He was using methods to persuade his son to join the Dark side. THAT'S Obvious.

Of course he doesn't thrust it in his Son's face! He was trying to recruit him! Point being, he didn't hold back earlier on. If you're testing your son to see if he's powerful, why would you hold back? He's going to give him everything to see if he can compete.

If you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back.





"COUNT DOOKU: It wasn't the Geonosians I was thinking about.
How well do you think one Jedi will hold up against a
thousand Battle Droids?"







Padawans? Where does it say just Padawans? Actually, It's used to hone Jedi's Lightsaber skill and Force Skill.

And you miss the point AGAIN.

Luke was still dodging the Bolts blindfolded and they were still pin sized.





Trebor wasn't blindfolded.

Deadliest man in the Galaxy? I don't think so. He got pwned moments later by Mace Windu.

There are far deadlier than Jango.





Who said he did between then? You're putting words into my mouth now. If you're going to try to make me look silly, try doing it with things I actually said, Faunus.

Who said Yoda trained Luke for three years? What the f*ck? I said they both personally trained him. You saw that. I saw it.





Not all of us have an outdated version of the script.

Here:

"COUNT DOOKU whirls his lightsaber in a formal salute. YODA
draws his lightsaber. Suddenly, COUNT DOOKU charges across
the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny
figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of
the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that COUNT
DOOKU aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through.
His energy drains. His strokes become feeble, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to
retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and
skill of YODA's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a
humming blur of light. Finally, their blades cross and the
fighting slows.

YODA: Fought well you have, my old Padawan.

COUNT DOOKU: The battle is far from over. This is just the
beginning.

Then, with all his might, COUNT DOOKU uses the Force to
pull on one of the cranes in the hanger. It comes crashing
down toward OBI-WAN and ANAKIN. ANAKIN wakes. But in the
blink of and eye, ANAKIN and OBI-WAN attempt to hold up the
crane, using the Force. YODA closes his eyes and
concentrates, adding his strength to the two fallen JEDI
and moves the crane aside. COUNT DOOKU runs up the ship's
ramp, throwing a look back before going inside."

Kenobi DID visit Luke once,read Splinter of the Minds Eye,thats when Luke and DV first dueled.

Is that book really a form of canon, it sucked.

It was made back in 1978 ,around the time when the movie was first in theaters,I'd say yes.

DV?

Darth Vader.

SotME is hardly canon.

Firstly, I wasn't going to even come into this forum, but I saw Coleman Trebor versus ESB Luke and I knew the fanboys would come out of the woodwork. Faunus nailed it, really. Sorgo, since when did you become a born-again Luke fan? "He is THE jedi..." I had to doublecheck the SN attached to that post. Luke in ESB isn't a jedi. He's not fit to fight Whie from Dark Rendezvous. The fact that Vader was toying with him was so damn evident I could tell when I first saw the movie at age FIVE.

Second, shooting random stormtrooper # 356 does not mean you could stand up to Jango Fett. Likewise, deflecting shots from a stormtrooper isn't the same either. Coleman may have dropped the ball in AOTC when his big moment came, but really... can you blame him? He's going up against Count Dooku, just the best swordsman in the order aside from Mace "I pwn teh n00bs" Windu and Yoda "zOMG teh friggun' spudur!" on top of the deadliest bounty hunter in the galaxy standing not five feet from him. I'd be pissing myself, and I don't even have a weird dino head. Instead of classifying all of his ability under his worst possible trait (Even if it is his only on-screen feat) we should try and be more open minded about it.

For one thing, the databank says Trebor was gifted in the force, and was respected by other jedi masters for his knowledge. Luke... uh.... didn't have the confidence in himself to finish Yoda's basic training (And don't tell me Yoda and Ben's ghost taught Luke enough in perhaps a week or two to defeat a full fledged jedi master. That's just ridiculous). Another thing, Coleman was able to deflect a few shots from Jango. Jango is one bad ass mother****er when it comes to accuracy. He shoots the changeling in the neck with a dart from on top of a friggin' building, he killed the beast in the arena with one shot... Hell, the only people who COULD deflect more than a few of his shots were Obi-Wan the Soresu master and Mace Windu who can fend off gunships with two sabers. Let's not undercut the guy's training and knowledge because Jango "I'm a badass" Fett pwned him. Otherwise I could say that Hulk Hogan can pwn Sidious since Darth Vader did the body slam to him and it killed him.

Meanwhile, we have Luke "I'm a farmboy turned pilot turned Jedi knight" supposively being able to beat a jedi master who has more training with his saber than twelve Lukes combined because of the following:

- He beat Vadur a year later!

- Vadur didn't kill him! They were fighting hardcore to the death, I swear!

- Sorgo, you appear to be using lines from the novelisation. I'd like to point out that the movie > ghostwritten novelisation.

- The remote was Artoo's lovechild and was thus uber. Luke blocking it with about 68.5% accuracy means he is that much closer to God.

- Luke rulez.

- Coleman sux00rz.

- And this is KMC SW Versus, home of the fanboys.

Yet I can't imagine Trebor "pwning" anyone for some reason.

I can't imagine Artoo pwning Super Battledroids prior to ROTS either. Still can't. In fact, I think I hallucinated and saw that.

What about the fact that Vader only vut off Luke hand and didn't kill him? What about the fact that he had his saber to Luke's throat but didn't kill him? What about the fact that the first thing he did was try and capture him in the Carbon Freezing Chamber? What about the fact that after the fight was over he wasn't even breathing hard, like he was in ANH and ROTJ?

Where did you get the one thousand from?

The remote droid was used by the Jedi in AOTC. What do you think, Sorgo, Obi-Wan just went into Mosiesly a month before ANH and bought a remote droid?

Luke (by the remote droid).

Yoda did not train Luke between ANH and ESB. Ben's ghost may have given him a few rods of advice every now and then but nothing more than that.

They do. So what if they're the foundation, so if in the script AOTC Obi-Wan pwnd Dooku then it would be official? No. Movies are the second highest source of canon. Lucas comes first. Then the movies. Then the script.

He was holding back at that point, according to Lucas.

Fine, a thousand battle droids, plus General Grievous and about a thousand Geonosians with sonic cannons. And Jango Fett.

Shatterpoint says Jango's the deadliest man. remember that deadliest doesn't mean strongest, just the one with the most kills.

I did.

There's the first error in the script; in the movie, Yoda also lunges forward.

Except the film contradicts that. In the film at the end Yoda evades, not attacks. And in the film there's no Yoda defending at the beginning, they're both attacking each other.

Faunus and Wesker added anything I missed plus alot more.

Well Im glad other people realize that a first draft script is NOT higher canon than the actual movies.

Originally posted by Fox5
Darth Vader.

Wow, I'm a dumbass today.

G.G. was at the battle of Geonosis?

Yep. He was underground pwning some fleeing Jedi at the massacre in the Arena. I think he fleed when the Clones arrived.

What source did you get that from?

I think it's in some of the novels, the Republic comic series, and the Clone Wars cartoon if I'm not mistaken.

Actually it's mentioned in LOE.

Yep.

''He could only imagine how many Jedi and clones he'd killed that day. . . ''

There's about half a page on it, if you guys needs a full passage.

He killed quite a few at Geonosis.

@Sorgo:Well,looks like you were wrong then.

Not necessary, and rather stupid.

Originally posted by Fox5
@Sorgo:Well,looks like you were wrong then.

Noob.

And Yes, I was wrong about that. I apologize. It was more than a thousand.


Dooku said a thousand, so I respectively assumed there would be one thousand droids in the Arena.

*coughEDITcough*

There were at least a thousand in the Arena.

Play nice.

Sorgo?!Nice?!I think overestimate his chances at being nice,Rex.Let alone listening to you.

Dooku used one hand to cut off Anakin's arm and to cut up Kenobi in two seperate places. Dooku used one hand to choke Kenobi and then to crush him under a large platform. One hand means nothing. Using one hand was obviously a part of Vader's fighting form, since someone mentioned earlier, Sith like to customize their technique.

He was trying to turn Luke but he was still going all out on him. He was testing to see how good he was. He's not going to back down on someone he is testing. That is NOT THE SITH WAY.

Why the hell would he capture someone he was testing? Holy shit.

In ANH, Kenobi was a significant challenge to Vader. And in ROTJ, Luke ruined Vader. In ESB, Vader had significant trouble but still overpowered his son in the end.






Apparently, I was wrong, but Dooku says it in the Movie. Check the script.





So, do you have proof it's not a renewed Droid?

Even so, what makes it any worse because it's years old?




He also blocked more shots than Coleman did before Jango ripped him apart.

BTW: This is ESB Luke. He has gained more experience in doing this as well.






Kenobi trained Luke between ANH and ESB.

Nothing more than that? Now you're assuming? Hell, Prove that Kenobi didn't train him to use seven Lightsabers at a time.






I wonder what they use when they're filming the Movie, when the Characters act, what the Characters do, where they move, who they kill...

Hmm... I'm curious as to where that comes from.

Could it be the Script? ZOMG!






You missed the point and you only replied to one of my scenarios.

If Vader could have just Force choked Luke in the battle and killed him, why didn't Sidious do it just to end Mace and not risk his life? Why not do it with Yoda? Why didn't Maul do it with Jinn and Kenobi? Were they all holding back? Please!






I'm Sorry, last time I checked, Jango killed ONE Jedi in that Arena, pwned a Monster and ATTEMPTED to pwn Mace.







Since when did that rule apply? Most Kills = Most Deadliest? They're two different things.







HAHAHA! They're talking about Yoda's Defense!







Yoda didn't defend against Dooku's Force Powers or when Dooku initiated the attack?

I'd like to point out a problem with using the script: the movies are able to be retconned or modified in newer versions according to "better fit GL's vision of the story." In other words, the newest versions of say, A New Hope, are canon and ideal while the earlier versions or not. This is straight out of the SW canon policy. So, if this is the case, scripts cannot be valid if and when they contradict the actual movie.

In other words,Wesker,you're saying that GL makes the rules,right?

That's how it is. While a script SHOULD be a good tool to use, it's not bonafide fact. The actual movies are the final elaborations on the script. So that's what we look to in judging the movies. I mean, the ROTS script is vastly different from the movie in a lot of ways. Why would we say the script is more canon?

We wouldn't, really.

Well if you kill someone, they're dead...if you have the ability to kill people, you're deadly...so if you have killed the most people, and have the ability to kill even more, you're the deadliest person.


He was trying to turn Luke but he was still going all out on him. He was testing to see how good he was. He's not going to back down on someone he is testing. That is NOT THE SITH WAY.

then by your own theory, Dooku couldn't have possibly been holding back on Anakin, mean Anakin did in fact beat Dooku fair and square, and quite easily...but thats a different thread, it just reminded me in here.

And Vader wanted to capture Luke to take him to the Emperor. Thats why he said, "Reset the chamber for Skywalker, I do not want the Emperor's prized damaged".........."Good, see to it that he finds his way in here(the carbonite freezing room)." Thats why he started the freezing process when Luke fell in. And thats ON FILM, so you cant pull, "Go check the script son." out of your ass.

And Sidious didn't just quickly kill mace because after he started losing, instead of resulting to a quick kill tactic, he decided to use it to sway Anakin more...he couldn't do it to Yoda because they're about equal in knowledge in the force (thats how Yoda refuted his lightning, and why Dooku said it had to go to lightsabers in AOTC), and Maul just wasn't smart enough or powerful enough to do something like that.
I know, I know..."Prove thats why!"...well, prove thats NOT the reasons. and referring to the almighty script, isn't proving anything, if it didn't make it to film.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well if you kill someone, they're dead...if you have the ability to kill people, you're deadly...so if you have killed the most people, and have the ability to kill even more, you're the deadliest person.


Yeah, that's true.

Too bad he only kills one Jedi, a Monster and then gets his head chopped off.


Damn . . . DEADLY!





Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with ESB.



Irrelevant. Doesn't prove Vader held back.

Funny . . . Vader didn't want to damage the "Emperor's Prize" but he cut his hand right off?

Weird . . .

Vader was testing Luke. He wasn't holding back. Vader was pushing him to see if he could surpass him. The Sith way is to fully expand your available horizon.

"If you are not strong enough, you do not deserve to live, let alone walk among the Sith."

^ S I T H

If Luke wasn't strong enough to at least be somewhat parallel to him, he did not deserve life. That's all.






Exactly!

You honestly can't prove shit!

That's just the way it is. You have all these ridiculous theories and no back up.

"Maul wasn't powerful enough."

PROVE IT! How the hell do you know he couldn't use Force Choke? Hell, He's a Sith so it's safe to assume he can choke someone.

Now Sidious did that to sway Anakin? Actually, since the Script apparently sucks and Lucas is the center of knowledge:

Lucas said in the Commentary that Sidious was overpowered and defeated by Mace, only to begin faking when Anakin entered to spare his own life.

Yoda and Sidious are equal but Mace isn't equal to Sidious?

So . . . It says Mace was on par with Yoda and Mace managed to defeat Sidious and Yoda didn't . . . And you're going to try to tell me Sidious couldn't use a "Quick Kill Tactic" on Yoda but he could with Mace? I call Logical Fallacy.


Where's your god now?

What has that got to do with ANYTHING?

And is it the Sith way to return to the lightside? Luke was his son, Sorgo. He was toying with him the entire duel. He isn't going to kill his own son. So he was going all out on Lukle but at the same time not trying to kill him? That's impossible.

He wasn't testing Luke, Sorgo. He was trying to capture him. Remember the Carbon freezing Chamber? That's called trying to capture someone.

So much trouble that he wasn't even breathing hard. So much trouble that he wasn't even trying to kill Luke. So much trouble that Luke was being drivewn back the entire time and Vader had Luke at his mercy but let him live and continue to fight.

So now your comparing a remote droid to Jango Fett?

How could he have when he didn't appear to Luke until ESB?

Sidious was faking during the Force part of their battle.

Yoda would have killed him while he was being choked. Seriously, would Sidious really use a Dark Side power like that on Yoda when there's a good chance Yoda'd just block it? Maul didn't do it to Qui-Gon cause Qui-Gon was probably stronger with the Force than he was and when did he have the chance to use it on Obi-Wan?

So because he killed one Jedi on screen you assume that he killed only one Jedi? No, he killed more than one, as you would know if you had read The Fight to Survive.

Deadliest, Sorgo.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deadliest

Yeah, cause he didn't kill anybody before AOTC, Sorgo.

What was the alternative? Chopping off his head?

Yeah, but Vader wasn't exactly the model Sith.

Obviously you haven't read all the posts. It has got to do with what me and Subjekt where talking about previously.

Read next time.




By ESB, Vader didn't care. He wanted Luke on the Dark side. Vader was acting in Arrogance and he wanted Luke on his side to benefit the Empire because he knew his son was powerful. He wouldn't just go there to toy with him, he was testing him. His skills and his power.

Of course he was testing him! He wanted to see if he was powerful enough to hold against Vader.



No, he failed that. He was testing Luke from there. He was throwing large projectiles at him and went as far as cutting his hand off. I'm guessing Luke's Saber going through Vaders shoulder was all part of his plan? Please.






Luke was also getting shit thrown at him. Vader also failed to capture Luke. Luke also slashed Vaders shoulder. Vader also cut off Luke's hand when he wasn't looking.








Why not? Isn't Coleman a Jedi Master? One who is supposed to whoop Luke's ass?




Actually, there is book on when Luke meets Kenobi's Ghost between ANH and ESB.






No, I'm talking about the entire fight. Why not quickly force choke him and get rid of him? I mean, apparently Vader could have just done that, right? Why didn't Maul? Dooku? Sidious? C'mon, man!

By the way, when Sidious unleashed a flurry of Lightning when Mace blocked it, he wasn't faking that. He wanted Mace gone at that point but failed.

quote:
Why not do it with Yoda? Why didn't Maul do it with Jinn and Kenobi? Were they all holding back? Please!




Wait a minute . . . Block a Force Choke? Prove to me how the HELL Yoda is going to block a Force Choke.

What makes you think Qui Gon is stronger in the Force? Probably? Maul beat him in Lightsaber combat. What makes you think he couldn't choke him to death just as easily?







According to the Movie, which is overall Canon, we saw him jump down after killing Coleman, pwned a monster and then tried to dodge Mace's shit but got his head lopped off.






Indeed.

But . . . Not deadly enough.





I didn't know we were talking about things outside of AotC. Were we? I don't recall!






If he was toying with him, he could easily find another way of disarming him without cutting a hand off, right?





Now Vader isn't a Model Sith? Oh my F*CKING God, dude.

Who said that?

Who twisting words to fit for their argument now? Hypocrite.



Could that be because the shit you said was irrelevant! *GASP*



A Lucky hit? If Vader was good enough, he would have parried your so called Lucky hit.

Hahaha! Like I mentioned before, you're spewing irrelevant bullshit AGAIN! RotS and ESB are two seperate movies. Sorry to let you know.



You're asking me to prove a direct negative theory. That's Logical Fallacy. And No, It's not a theory seeing as they fought and nothing indicates he faked it. Isn't that funny? Hell, maybe you're just a Vader fanboy and can't handle the fact that Vader had troubles.





He could have never immediately killed Mace! He tried that, remember? And Mace blocked it! Anakin had to assist Sidious so that Sids could finish the job.



I haven't done that yet.

You did that earlier, by the way.

I call Hypocrisy.



Whoa . . . Mace isn't better than Yoda in Lightsaber. They're virtually on par. And what makes you think Mace doesn't have a better knowledge of the Force? His Lightsaber style consists of using the Force and his Shatterpoint technique hella utilizes the Force. Oh, that's the Form he created, by the way.



Yoda blocked it with his hands because he didn't have a Lightsaber! Jesus!




"A quick sword
exchange and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange and
Vader retreats. Luke presses forward."

"Luke aggressively drives Vader back, forcing Vader to
use defensive tactics."

"Vader retreats before Luke's skillful sword. Vader blocks
the sword, but looses his balance and falls into the outer rim
of pipes."

"uke answers by rolling sideways and thrusting his sword at
Vader so viciously that he nicks Vader on the shoulder. The
black armor sparks and smokes and Vader seems to be hurt."


It seems Vader didn't just have one trouble with Luke.


I'm sure Vader was just toying. Yeah, that's what happened.

All you do is dodge points made and cry out hypocrite and logical fallacy without actually answering anything. Nowhere in the movie did it EVER seem that Vader had trouble with Luke, It seems as though he may have underestimated him, but underestimating someone isn't "having trouble" with them, you just step your game up to its usual level.

And you say that ESB and ROTS are two different movies when i mention that your dear Dooku gets legitimately gets pwned, but then you to Mace and Sids when we're talking about Luke and Vader...hmmm, now THATS funny isn't it?

And yes, you said, "Ok he killed one jedi, a monster and tried to kill mace but got killed, and he's supposed to be deadly?" So you were basing him not being deadly on that one moment, so me asking if he had never killed anyone else is not twisting your words at all, its making an observation.

Ive noticed you debate or argue less like someone who wants to PROVE his ideas, but more like a 15 year old whose not getting what he wants. And can only say the say bullshit everytime...try proof. You cant cry that the movies are the highest canon one minute and then pull a script or book out of you ass the next. Doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
All you do is dodge points made and cry out hypocrite and logical fallacy without actually answering anything. Nowhere in the movie did it EVER seem that Vader had trouble with Luke, It seems as though he may have underestimated him, but underestimating someone isn't "having trouble" with them, you just step your game up to its usual level.

Dodge points? I've virtually crushed most of your theories, not points. And there were points where Vader was pushed back, if you've actually watched the damn movie.

Vader underestimated Luke? He's the one who wanted to capture him because he was powerful! Hell, he went on about his power after he gashed his hand off!

Man oh man....



My dear Dooku? Wow . . . You're ridiculous.

You're COMPARING Vader to Dooku. I was using Sidious and Mace as an EXAMPLE, not a COMPARISON.



You did twist my words. You said I referred to the entirety of the Movie when I was talking about the Arena. Now you're going to bare face lie? He was at an Arena with a shitload of Jedi and CIS Droids on his team and he managed to kill one Jedi. I bet there were Droids that killed more Jedi than him.



You're lying again and basing your petty grade one analysis on your own opinions instead of what I'm actually doing.

Why don't you try to stick to debating with me instead of trying to judge me? It's ridiculously embarrassing on your part and it looks pathetic. We're here to debate, not play semantics.


Try staying on topic.

Once again, you're talking about Irrelevant bullshit.

The movies are the HIGHEST of canons,Sorgo.Books,comics,video games and everything else are organized into canon catagories,movies being in the HIGHEST of canon catagorie.In other words,the script doesn't matter in this case.Like for example,in the ESB novel and the script it says General Veers was killed when a snowspeeder crashed into his AT-AT,yet,when we see the movie,it's not there.Thats the same for the script and novel,you can have one written down,then have it completely changed into another.Hopefully this post explains what I mean.

I honestly think Vader was testing him,then when the duel got going,he realized that he had underestimated his son.The only part that I think,Vader went all out was near the huge ventilation shaft,when Luke was walking through the control room and Vader seemingly comes out of nowhere.That is the part that I think ,is the only time he goes 'all out'.

Originally posted by Fox5
The movies are the HIGHEST of canons,Sorgo.Books,comics,video games and everything else are organized into canon catagories,movies being in the HIGHEST of canon catagorie.In other words,the script doesn't matter in this case.Like for example,in the ESB novel and the script it says General Veers was killed when a snowspeeder crashed into his AT-AT,yet,when we see the movie,it's not there.Thats the same for the script and novel,you can have one written down,then have it completely changed into another.Hopefully this post explains what I mean.

I honestly think Vader was testing him,then when the duel got going,he realized that he had underestimated his son.The only part that I think,Vader went all out was near the huge ventilation shaft,when Luke was walking through the control room and Vader seemingly comes out of nowhere.That is the part that I think ,is the only time he goes 'all out'.


Unfortunately, The Scripts explain almost every word spoken and every movement. Hell, it directs the Actors on what to do and say and where to move.

Movies are not the Highest Source. Lucas is. You're wrong again.

Scripts are subject to last minute revision. And where's your source for this script? Where are you pulling it from? Anyone can write things in italics, Sorgo. I'm not saying you would do a thing like that, but I'd really like for you to provide us with access to the script for revision.

Originally posted by Wesker
Scripts are subject to last minute revision. And where's your source for this script? Where are you pulling it from? Anyone can write things in italics, Sorgo. I'm not saying you would do a thing like that, but I'd really like for you to provide us with access to the script for revision.

Google "ESB Script".

It's truly that simple.

There are several different Scripts that are all the same, except if you find the WAY BACK original Script, which has a character called "Anikan" in it. Ignore that one and ignore the SS Script, even though the SS Script is perfectly conditioned, he may have made some changes.

how am I lying? I'm stating the obvious. As far as Jango goes, the minute that someone mentioned that he was the deadliest man alive and it was from a book, that ruled out "just the arena scene". Based off his LIFE, he was the deadliest man alive", and you tried to argue that. And you didn't mention you were limiting your opinion solely on the arena scene...that came later.
And when I say you argue like a kid rather than someone trying to prove a point, that's not lying either...that's making yet another OBSERVATION.

Obviously I'm not the only one who notices it. No one here shares your "opinions". You have no concrete proof and keep spouting "hypocrite"...."logic fallacy"...."word up son"...."thats how it rolled"...and calling other people names, and not listening to what EVERYONE else is saying.

And yes, GL is the highest form of canon, and who is it that dictates what makes it from script to film? I'll give you a hint, he has a beard and wears flannel a lot. But I'll go one step further, who also decides what scenes get deleted, therefore no longer becoming canon? GL.

You say that we cant prove our points, yet you cant either. You just keep giving us excerpts from this "script" that doesn't necessarily reflect those words in the movie. And yes he was toying with him...one of the biggest tip offs of that was that he hadn't touched Luke until luke tagged him...then 2 seconds later, off goes his hand. If Luke was that strong and EARNED that hit, then why didn't the blade go all the way through, killing Vader? CAUSE IT WAS A LUCKY HIT. He didn't know he could get it.

I'm not judging you in the least. I'm telling you the way YOU look on these forums, which is argumentative and irrational. I'm not embarrassed by anything I say, because I stand behind everything I say. And me pointing out the obvious truths doesn't make me look pathetic either. But thanks for judging ME.

and by the way, it's bold face lie, not bare face.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
how am I lying? I'm stating the obvious. As far as Jango goes, the minute that someone mentioned that he was the deadliest man alive and it was from a book, that ruled out "just the arena scene". Based off his LIFE, he was the deadliest man alive", and you tried to argue that. And you didn't mention you were limiting your opinion solely on the arena scene...that came later.
And when I say you argue like a kid rather than someone trying to prove a point, that's not lying either...that's making yet another OBSERVATION.

No, it didn't rule out the Arena scene. He was quoting something from a book.

And notice how I said "He only killed one Jedi, A Monster and then got killed". Funny, that all happened in the ARENA. I had to tell you later because your awareness is shit and you couldn't get it on your own so you assumed I was talking about something else. You basically got lost in your own stupidity and you have the nerve to judge me?

It is lying. Your making shoddy Analysises based on your half ass assumptions and you virtually trying to judge everything I'm typing based on your flumsy opinion. I could do the same thing, but I'd rather stay on topic instead of talking about IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT. I want to see how many more times I have to repeat that shit to you.



I'm listening, I'm just rebutting it. Now, you're trying to pull off more analysis shit instead of staying on topic.

Holy shit. You're not a psychiatriast. Get over that and stay on topic and stop talking about . . . *GASP* . . .


IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT!



Everything I quoted in the Script provided what happened in the movie. It's DIRECT PROOF of what went down in the Movie. It wasn't changed, seeing as it's an updated Script from the current movie of The Empire Strikes back. You think the Script stays the same from all the changes they made before they released the movie? No. After around . . . What now? Twenty Three years? . . . The script has been updated. Accept that and move on.



Two seconds later? You mean after he missed APPROXAMETLY six times before cutting off his Sons hand after his son looked away?

It wasn't a Lucky Hit. Luke slashed his arm. So, because it doesn't go "all the way through" It's automatically a lucky hit? You're silly.

It reflects WORD BY WORD of the words they spoke and the movements they made. Go watch the movie. You'll see the same thing I read to you in the script. It sucks being in denial, eh?



You're not pointing out obvious truths, you're avoiding 90% of the primary argument by subliminally insulted me and trying to put your little insulting sharade off as an "Obvious Truth", which is more senseless and IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT semantics. You said I was insulting everyone? You're doing the very same thing by trying to degrade my debating skills and my intelligence. Who's insulting who now? Now, let me point out the obvious: YOU'RE BEING A HYPOCRITE AGAIN!

Stick to the argument instead of purposely avoiding it with your dumb opinions of me.



http://www.babylon.com/definition/a%20bare-faced%20lie/English

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bare-faced_lie

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bare-faced+lie

http://www.answers.com/topic/barefaced-lie

Do you want more?

If Luke was being tested then why did Vader still want Luke to join him after Luke failed the "test"?

Vader made one mistake and got a small arm injury because of it. His goal was to turn Luke to the Dark Side. As shown after the duel when he tries to turn Luke tot he Dark Side.

Wow, Luke escaped with help from lando, Leia and Chewie and he got one small hit on Vader when Vader made a mistake. Vader beat the shit outta Luke, cut fof his hand, Luke was barely conscious when Lando took him from the rod thingy aftetr the duel.

Sorry Sorgo, Jango Fett is vastly superior to a Remote Droid.

Yeah, the same book that has the Kaaibur Crystal and Obi-Wan take possession of Luke's body. SOTME is not canon.

I've already explained why Maul didn't. Vader didn't want to kill Luke. Mace was to big of a threat to Sidious, Sidious never had the opportunuity to use it on Mace cause Mace would have just stabbed him.

He was faking that part. Lucas says so so sorry Sorgo, he was faking it.

With the Force (duh).

Qui-Gon learned how to come back from death using the Force. Maul never showed any Force ability as great as coming back from the dead.

But we don't see what happened off screen, between and before that stuff, do we.

Jango was the deadliest man in the galaxy. This includes all his kills, not just the ones in the arena.

Cutting off his hand is not damaging him, hands can be replaced. No harm done. Plus at the end Vader got pissed off and lost a little bit of control.

So you think Vader is a model Sith? LOL. Vader has never been a model Sith.

You said that. I said Jango was the deadliest man in the galaxy, you said "He killed a Jedi and a beats. Really deadly."

Because his potential was unlimited and Vader still acknowledged this.





Actually, according to the Movie and the UPDATED Script, Vader was pushed back by Luke several times during their battle and you can see it during the Fight. Of course he was trying to turn Luke! But he was not holding back.






He still escaped . . . Twice. And Vader didn't beat the shit out of him, he launched projectiles at him. A bunch of them, which made him bruised and bloody. Then later on he got the chance to cut off Luke's hand when Luke wasn't even looking. Holding back? That's no indication Vader was holding back at all. Vader made no mistake. Luke got through Vader's Defence.





Sorry DS19, but if Coleman was so vastly superior, he would have survived Jango's array of bolts with his crappy Lightsaber style.






The the RotS Novel and LOE are both non Canon, because they have things that contradict the Prequel Movies.

See? I can do that too.





Are you kidding? The second Mace walked into that office and began talking, he had the opportunity. He had the opportunity when his arm was fully extended at Mace's chest. And Maul could have as well . . . Easily . . . You think just because Sith don't try to instakill everyone that they're holding back? That's shitty on your part.






No, Lucas doesn't. Either does the Databank. Sidious was faking his pleas for help and quickly tried to kill Mace to persuade Anakin so the Jedi Master would not goad Anakin to join the Dark side. Why do you think Sidious eliminated the Jedi? He wanted no opposition. And yeah: He's going to fake Lightning, burn his own face and make himself look like a raging Sith in front of Anakin all for show. Sidious didn't fake that part. Sorry.





No. Force Chokes CANNOT be blocked.







Jinn learned immorality and that has nothing to do with In-Battle Force powers. That's like me saying Jinn has better Force powers than Dooku because Dooku didn't learn how to become a Ghost, which is ridiculous.





He kills Coleman and then it goes off. Then it centers on him jumping down and killing the Monster. Then it leaves. After he finishes with the Monster, he tries to off Mace. He fails from there.






You're missing the point. He did shitty in the Arena.






No, Luke has a disadvantage without a Hand. He can't use two handed Lightning and he doesn't have the same flex or control he would have with a Natural hand.






Vader is the posterboy for the Sith, dude.






Yeah, before his Death. That's all he killed. I don't find that impressive.

If Luke was at a disadvantage because of ONE unnatural hand, than Vader HAD to be at an even bigger disadvantage, right? Seeing as how he doesn't have the same flex or control...jesus man.

And YOU YOURSELF said somewhere, "if you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back!" Period...there's NO room for interpretation here. You cant bend rules as you see fit, hypocrite.

You know what man, I'm done with you. You just don't get it and everyone here is in agreeance except you. You physically drain my energies and just make no sense. So you can come back with some clever quip which includes the words you found in the dictionary today, so have fun.

Look,guys,it's obvious that Vader went all out when they were in the Cloud City Control Room before they fight in the big ventilation shaft,Vader came out of nowhere and was definately fighting at his best right there,Luke only nicked Vader because he so deep in hate that he wasn't concentrating.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If Luke was at a disadvantage because of ONE unnatural hand, than Vader HAD to be at an even bigger disadvantage, right? Seeing as how he doesn't have the same flex or control...jesus man.

The difference is that Vader had years of Experience, was utilizing the Dark side and had the strength of ten men. Look at the way he uses his Lightsaber because of his synthetic body, man.

He's powerful, but he just isn't the same. And if you're trying to pass off that a Synthetic Hand is just as effective as a natural hand then you truly have an IQ of a Child's Shoe size.



When the hell did I say that?

If you're trying to unarm someone, you don't have to hold back to do so.





I'll pass that off as some meager attempt to escape my previous post and this current debate, since you seem to be making assumptions, I'll do so as well.

Wow . . . You get physically drained from a Forum Debate?

I just broke a new decibal record laughing.


You're not fit here, son. Go home now.

Originally posted by Fox5
Look,guys,it's obvious that Vader went all out when they were in the Cloud City Control Room before they fight in the big ventilation shaft,Vader came out of nowhere and was definately fighting at his best right there,Luke only nicked Vader because he so deep in hate that he wasn't concentrating.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
^ right there...you say one minute that he doesn't want to kill luke because he's testing him, then you say, if you're not trying to kill someone, you're holding back. You even went as far as to italicize "holding back'.

You just showed evidence that he was in fact holding back, yet you continue to spew illogical rants stating that theres no possible way he was holding back...make up your mind, son.

What I said wasn't evidence and that's actually a bad mistake on my part as well.

You can be going all out and not be trying to kill someone. People can attempt to disarm other opponents by using everything invested in themselves.

By the way, Everything I said in that last post (You know, the one you didn't bother to reply to.) was all Logical and even some of it was evidence.

I thought you said you were leaving?

Make up your mind, son.

Ah, I didn't say i was leaving, I said I was done with you. and that was a big mistake on my part. But see, that just goes to show your distortion of the truth and inability to properly comprehend whats typed in front of you.

Which one didn't i reply to? point it out and i will...gladly.

I find it entertaining that once you have something that proves a point in front of you, all you can say is you made a mistake. You know that portion was correct, you're just to bullheaded to admit it.

Originally posted by Fox5
Look,guys,it's obvious that Vader went all out when they were in the Cloud City Control Room before they fight in the big ventilation shaft,Vader came out of nowhere and was definately fighting at his best right there,Luke only nicked Vader because he so deep in hate that he wasn't concentrating.

It looked to me like Vader was fighting like an idiot just to overwhelm Luke at that point, like to scare him into submission, which he pretty much did.

Originally posted by Wesker
It looked to me like Vader was fighting like an idiot just to overwhelm Luke at that point, like to scare him into submission, which he pretty much did. True.But he did in the end.

He got pissed and cut his hand off...that simple. Had he been going all out, he would have gotten him sooner.

Sorgo said that they wanted to test him....fine.
He said that he was going all out to see if he could keep up...fine, i don't agree, but fine.
Then something was said that they already knew about his power and that he could destroy them.......

then why test him? They both already knew he was strong, and already made up their minds to have him turned, not killed. In order to turn him, they realized that BOTH of them would have to do it. THATS why Vader wanted to "capture" him in the Carbonite Chamber.

The WHOLE reason of freezing Han was to see if would be safe to freeze a human (Luke). So it was already in Vader's mind to capture him rather than test him. The whole testing theory is old and weak. There's no proof to support such an idea.

There is however proof to support the FACT that Vader wanted to freeze Luke for "his journey to the Emperor". Vader said it more than once, and attempted to start the freezing process. (By pointing his finger at the control panel and lifting the switch.)

I grow tired of the constant bickering, and I'm as guilty as Sorgo, but there is no proof that Vader was going all out, and no reason to believe that his initial plan was to test Luke, especially when they already knew of his power potential.

Thats why Vader said, "He will join us, or die." The first mission was to turn him. Then he got around him and started feeling "something" for Luke. I wont say love, cause it was too soon, but he even thru out the thought of destroying the Emperor and ruling together.

And I know you take the part, "or die" and twist that around to "see, he said or he'd kill him so he WAS going all out cause he knew he couldn't turn him." ...no. He said that to Palps in a ass kissing kinda way, Just to get him off his back.

I read somewhere (and ill try to find out where) that Vader was already obsessed with finding "his son"(not Luke) Slywalker, and Palps was a;ready growing suspicious of Vader's intentions and was in talks with Xizor and wanted tabs kept on Vader. don't know how canon that is, but ill try to find the source.

Anyway, Vader wanted to find Luke anyway for whatever reason, and did not want to kill him, and already wanted Luke to join him. Before the Emp mentioned it.

I want to point out that I know that Luke i his son, but im drawing referrence to the fact that he addresses him as his son, rather than a formal name, Like Luke, or Skywalker.

That kind of wording comes from SOME type of emotional bond.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
He got pissed and cut his hand off...that simple. Had he been going all out, he would have gotten him sooner.


Wrong. Luke had been pushing him back for alot of the fight.



What are you talking about? Are you referring to when Sidious said that Luke could destroy him and Vader?



They wanted him to join the Sith and they had sensed he was powerful. They've been wrong in the past and Sidious has had incorrect predictions before (This includes the prediction of his death.) Why wouldn't they test him before letting him in? That would make no sense.

"Hooray! Let's just let Luke join the Sith because we assume he is powerful!"

No, doesn't work that way. Sidious has tested Sith in the past. Why would he pass it up this time? Has he gotten stupider? I think not.



Of course there is proof! You said that APPARENTLY Vader was holding back, right? If Vader was holding back, why didn't he disarm Luke at the snap of his fingers so he could capture him within mere seconds? If Vader was having no significant trouble AT ALL with Luke, then why was Vader holding back if he was not testing him? Why didn't he capture him right away?

Why didn't he keep in the Chamber? Why was his defense crumbling several times to Luke? Why did Luke get the opportunity to slash his Cybernetic suit? Because Vader was holding back?

If Vader was trying to capture Luke and holding back, why didn't Vader walk out of there with Luke?


It's getting old now, man.


The Idea that Vader was holding back is Old and weak. There is ABSOLUTELY no proof to support that idea.



Okay, so why didn't Vader just chuck him in there in the beginning? And the fight went on long after Luke escaped the Carbonite site. Why didn't Vader just disable his arm then and capture him if his plan had failed?

Of course he wanted to throw Luke in there, but he was testing him at the beginning, and when his plan failed almost too miserably, he most likely attempted to catch Luke in other means but it took longer because Luke was stronger than Vader first thought.



No, they didn't know of his Power. They assumed it was great and they felt it through the force, of course. But they obviously wanted to test him. Just because someone has Potential Power doesn't mean they know how to use it. Vader is a walking example of what happened because Sidious chose a Sith with "Potential". Would he make the same mistake again without testing that Jedi? He's done it before. Why would he change his pattern suddenly? He knew Anakin's power and he STILL tested Anakin.





That thought is a Sith thought.

Apprentice > Master is just the way of the Sith. The Apprentice is always trying to conquer the Master. This doesn't prove that Vader had feelings for his Son at that point.



You just assumed I would take that and twist around, yet you just twisted it around saying he said it in an ass kissing way.

Did he say it like that? Can you show me where it says he said it like that?



First of all, Vader was looking for his Son, yes. What's he going to call him to try to persuade him to the dark side? Luke? He was willing to use any method to try to turn Luke. That included trying to make Luke feel a part of the Family so he would join the Sith.

Sidious was keeping tabs on Vader so he wouldn't try to use Luke to take over the Sith and the Empire by killing Sidious.

Jeez . . .



Of course he did! He wanted to terminate his Master and have the ever powerful Luke as his apprentice while he virtually ran the Galaxy.

Why wouldn't he test him to see if he was powerful enough? He wanted a proper apprentice. He wanted someone that held the power to overthrow Sidious so Vader could run the show.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I want to point out that I know that Luke i his son, but im drawing referrence to the fact that he addresses him as his son, rather than a formal name, Like Luke, or Skywalker.

That kind of wording comes from SOME type of emotional bond.

Or the fact that Vader wanted to throw a Guilt trip on his Son so he would join the Sith.


If Vader called him "Son", Luke would peer at him as a Father figure and would be more likely to turn.


Vader was being manipulative. Y'know, that's kind of what the Sith practice.