Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The trio is of the Dark Nest time period.

Exar Kun is at his prime, amplified by Sadow's teachings and his unique double bladed style of fighting.

Qel Droma is also at his peak.

So it's either Jacen or Jaina? or both? Even if it's both, the best bet would be for Kyp and Jacen to go against Ulic while Jaina took Kun. Jaina'd be wtf pwnd in about three seconds but by that time Ulic might be finished. But even if he was it wouldn't matter cause Kun still wouldn't have alot of trouble against Kyp and Jacen. He'd have a little trouble but not alot.

Its both.

Darthsith you sorely underestimate the power of the FORCE, hence Kyp's team wins.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Its both.

Darthsith you sorely underestimate the power of the FORCE, hence Kyp's team wins.
Heh, yeah, unfortunately I think most people are going to agree with me.

This is an interesting fight. Kyp has shown tremendous force abilities however nothing that would even remotely help him in a fight with Kun. I'd say Ulic and Kyp battle it out, Kun kills Jacen and Jaina quicker than Kyp kills Ulic, then Exar Kun curbstomps Kyp.

I like how the theory is that Kyp's force powers are far superior yet other than matching the questionable "black hole" feat of Skywalker's, no use of it has been brought up.

In a lightsaber battle, Ulic will curbstomp Durron. Pray tell, what Force techniques is Kyp going to try on Qel-Droma?

I don't know IKC why don't you actually READ my post before getting riled up, since it says exactly what you wrote afterwards.

And you exaggerate Ulic's lightsaber abilities beyond belief. He won't curbstomp Kyp, since Kyp was second only to Luke in saber combat. Yea Ulic will win but stop exaggerating his power without proof.

Yes, Kyp was second only to Luke. Luke, the best saber wielder of a "Jedi order" that was taught by none other than Luke and has never been shown to know of the old forms.

Sorry, no. Better formal training, superior knowledge base, and better shown skill net it for Ulic. Same for Kun.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, Kyp was second only to Luke. Luke, the best saber wielder of a "Jedi order" that was taught by none other than Luke and has never been shown to know of the old forms.

Great IKC. Again: Luke was trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan and he used form V - but in the same time he didn't know about lightsaber forms ? Nice. He received the complete inventory of a mobile Jedi Academy (the Chu'unthor) but there wasn't any knowledge about the lightsaber forms ? He had quite huge amount of holocrons (Jedi / Sith) and even a complete library from Ossus. But nowhere you have any lightsaber forms mentioned ?

Something makes me think they did have knowledge about the lightsaber styles.



Wow, IKC. So Ulic with less than 4 years of training had "a better training" than people who kept training for 2 decades ? Arca Jeth stored knowledge greater than the amassed knowledge of the Jedi Archieves + a Jedi training vessel + a library on Ossus and groups of force users (e.g. the Falannassi) that were basically unknown before to give Ulic a greater knowledge base ? And better shown skill ?

Did I miss the point were Ulic electocuted a Leviathan with one year of training like Kyp did ? Did I miss the point were Ulic made Jedi Masters scream in pain using a force attack on them ? Did I miss the point were Ulic took down two fighters with lightsaber resistant armor and weapons that couldn't be affected by the force in a 4vs1 ? Did I miss the point where he manipulated massive gravity sources (basically black holes) at will ? Remind me. The most impressive things Ulic has done are: Managing to survive Kun who wasn't in his prime, defeat Warb Null, defeat Mandalore and defeat a Jedi after being cut off from the force.

Why don't you just type "Kun and Ulic win because I know nothing about the post ROTJ stuff" next time ?

IKC please don't start that whole "Kun is superior to all forms of Luke" and "Luke sucks" nonsense since you can't back it up.. It's been resolved and there's been peace for a while.

And again, Kyp takes out Kun but not before Kun curbstomps the Solo twin, then one way or the other beats down Kyp.

LMAO, I love this feat. I guess they always fail to mention that they fought in a damn thunderstorm to begin with.

And this diminishes his feat how?

It's a damned thunderstorm. How do you think it's less of a feat?

Also, Kyp lured the thing into a powerline.

Leviathans aren't that bright, it seems.

lol

Originally posted by tdtd
And this diminishes his feat how?

So if I get someone to stand on top of a mountain with a lightning rod during a thunderstorm, I can say I have the power of Thor himself and can strike lightning at will?

Of course it diminishes the feat.

That's not a very good example of the point you were trying to make

So if I get someone to stand on top of a mountain with a lightning rod during a thunderstorm, I can say I have the power of Thor himself and can strike lightning at will?

Well... do you?

Well if he could turn invisible that would be cooler.

Here is how the battle goes. Jace nand Jaina attempt to beat down Ulic. Kyp sees Exar, freaks out, and attacks but gets tooled rather easily.

Ulic saberrapes Jaina, but has some trouble against Jacen. Exar comes in, and together Jacen is PWNT.

Resolved? Hardly. We just tired of making our points over and over only to have them ignored by loons.

More Kun fanboyism? *sigh* This time you started it IKC. Ttd said what you wanted to hear and you still try to fight him? You need a life, dude. Anyways what Ttd said, the duo wins.

Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu. Ow. That hurt, really, it did. We told him what he wanted to hear and yet he still wants to fight. In case you haven't noticed he started it. He wants to fight Ttd. If you can't prove me wrong about IKC wanting to fight every chance he gets then just don't comment on it.

Originally posted by IKC
Resolved? Hardly. We just tired of making our points over and over only to have them ignored by loons.

What points? Listing feats? Would you like to revive that thread and see what points were made? No, I think you got tired of posting when people started to make sense and used logic that could combat your "Kun pwns" arguments.. But if you want to revive that baby, let's dance.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

Nobody is calling you a fanboy, but at the same time we came to a logical conclusion to the Kun vs Luke argument and unless you have something extra and new to add I don't see the conclusion changing.

Originally posted by IKC
Resolved? Hardly. We just tired of making our points over and over only to have them ignored by loons.

Ah good old IKC.. If you mean making your own arguments sometimes logical sometimes not while not even listening to the other side, then yes you're right.. I'd like to see someone else agree with you on that...If not, open up the thread again and we'll get crackin..

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

Really? I didn't know he was talking specifically about the DN Luke vs. Kun argument.. Again you stopped posting as soon as people started making logical arguments for Luke..

Originally posted by IKC
Resolved? Hardly. We just tired of making our points over and over only to have them ignored by loons.

Originally posted by tdtd
Really? I didn't know he was talking specifically about the DN Luke vs. Kun argument.. Again you stopped posting as soon as people started making logical arguments for Luke..

Isn't it established DN Luke > Kun > NJO Luke?

Although i rather believe Kun > Any incarntion of Luke, but that would be fanboyism ><

I don't know if it's been established but I'd go with what you just said about DN Luke>Kun>NJO Luke.. The fact remains that IKC still can't prove that Kun's amulet blasts would work on a living force user, while we can't prove Luke's instakill would work on a competent force user..

Kun > Any known Luke Skywalker.

That's bullshit and you know it IKC,DN Luke would WTFpwn Kun,stupid fanboy.You're like Sorgo when he first started out here,except you lik Kun instead of Dooku. ,DN Luke right now is more powerful than anyone at the moment.Therefore your stupid assumption is wrong.

Yup, back to IKC and his biased opinion without any logical arguments... Just say Kun is greater than Ragnos and the ancient sith...

Think I'll stick with DN Luke>Kun>NJO Luke... Thanks for your thoughts though

Fox5 pipe down, let IKC make his arguments before you call him a fanboy.... Personal attacks are useless.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

Ok well IKC can't make an argument anymore which is why stopped posting in the DN Luke gauntlet days ago. Thanks for proving my point IKC.

Originally posted by IKC
Resolved? Hardly. We just tired of making our points over and over only to have them ignored by loons.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok well IKC can't make an argument anymore which is why stopped posting in the DN Luke gauntlet days ago. Thanks for proving my point IKC.

Ok, we are beginning to overdo it on the personal comments here. Turn it down, folks.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

You must be joking, Faunus. All that IKC does when it comes to TOTJ era people vs NJO era people is throwing in his 3 basic arguments in different variations:

1) The NJO people must suck because they were trained by Luke
2) Luke must suck because he's only superior to the people he trained himself.
3) The NJO people knew jack shit about lightsaber combat or force skills compared to anything else.

IKC is simply arguing out of ignorance. I can do the same thing: Ulic must suck because he learned all about lightsaber fighting from a guy who got his ass handed to a protocol droid with a blaster after 200 years of being a Jedi. Because Ulic sucked so much and he managed to stalemate Kun, Kun must be another bad excuse for a good duellist and since Kun is the top duellist of his era all TOTJ Jedi must suck and would get curbstomped by even ROTJ Luke. There you go...

Disliking the post-ROTJ or at least post-JA novels is a common thing here. Most people here - as it seems - didn't bother to read the Young Jedi Knight series or the NJO series or the DN trilogy. And as a result of that they have ROTJ Luke in their mind who is so far below his later self (even compared to DE) that even I would suggest everybody trained by him must suck. But you can't ignore that Luke spend 7 years fighting and gathering knowledge across the Galaxy before opening his Academy on Yavin 4 as well as you can't ignore that all of his students went through multiple conflicts including a 5 year war against "the biggest thread the Galaxy has seen so far" aka the Yuuzhan Vong.

And look at the people involved in this fight.

Kyp:
- with a few weeks of training under Luke and some knowledge given to him by Kun he was able to give Luke trouble. And Luke had already defeated DE Sidious at that point.
- after one year of training he went to fight the Leviatan (And Illustrious: If I failed to mention that he was fighting in a thunderstorm, you failed to mention that he did fight the Leviathan with a freaking wooden spear before "calling down the lightning from the sky" with the force. You act as if the Leviathan was just incidentally hit by the lightning).
- in the NJO series he reproduced Luke's feat of controlling black holes with ease
- he basically wrecked dozens of Vong in melee combat including 2 slayers (as far as I remember). Just to remind people: Vong are a warrior race resistant to force attacks that took over an entire Galaxy before invading the SW universe with bodies enchanced via bio-engineering and their warrior caste has weapons / armour resistant to lightsaber hits.

Jaina / Jacen:
- in the age of 5 both managed to escaped from their cells on Hethrirs Worldship (and they were guarded by force users)
- after being captured during the Corellian Crisis in the age of 9 they again managed to escape from the Human League
- in the age of 14 they managed to escape from the Shadow Academy (Dark Jedi training facility)
- both were part of the Myrkr strike team that was sent to kill the voxyn queen which was done by Jacen after the team had fought through an entire YV worldship killing masses of YV's and voxyn (creatures with bodies nearly as hard as durasteel, fatal neurotoxins and retroviruses on any body part and even their blood durned into neurotoxin in air).
- during the NJO series Jacen managed to defeat the YV warmaster Tsavong Lah in a duel throwing him out of a window. Lah was probably the best Yuuzhan Vong warrior just below the Supreme Overlord.
- being captured by Vergere and held captive on Coruscant he first started a revolt then took down YV guards as well as 12 dhuryams (without being able to touch the force)
- after that he gained his force connection back and used a force-lightning attack on Vergere and a groups of Yuuzhan Vong.
- he helped Luke to fight through the HQ of the Supreme Overlord and slayed Omini

So...whatever people are going to tell me: Everybody in the trio seems to pocess greater force skills and fighting experience compared to Ulic and I don't see Exar "wtfpwn" one of them. I'd say that Ulic will go down first here and while Exar is superior to all of them individualy I doubt that he can take down two or all three of them at once with their amassed combat skills / fighting experience and force powers.

Are the YV competely resistant to force attacks? I always thought that they were basically empty of the force and as a result were not able to be felt through the force.

They aren't which would make them resistant to force attacks. You'd have to muster up enough energy to get through that little hole in the force, as shown with emerald lightning.

Strawman, logical fallacy.



Strawman, logical fallacy.



Factual error. The NJO might suck, but attempting to lay bias at one's feet without sufficient evidence in order to prove what passes for your point is nonsense.



And that's the most important part. You don't read or take into account another's points. That's why we stopped responding to you.

Here we go IKC... Oh btw "We" didn't stop responding to NAI, YOU stopped responding to NAI, while others continued the debate because they had actual points to make. Oh yea, you claiming all that doesn't make it true, stop with the attitude since the joke is over, and please don't speak about bias because I'll be forced to whip out the dictionary and explain hypocrisy to you.

That's why Illustrious stopped as well, right? How about Janus?

Good call.



Go ahead, troll. I'm more than willing to point out your logical fallacies again.

Illustrious stopped? Janus stopped? Point out my logical fallacies when you can't even make an accurate portrayal of past events? What a way to debate IKC. By the way you claiming it doesn't make it so..

Originally posted by IKC
That's why Illustrious stopped as well, right? How about Janus?

Actually I'd like to point out that one of reasons Janus' hardly posts in here is becuase of all the noobs... and Nai Fohl is certianly no noob. As for Illustrious I cannot say.

Shhh don't tell him that it destroys his argument.

Kun is pretty good but nothing special. I would put him above all of these three however. I can see Jacen having a slight edge over Ulic and would presumably be able to beat Ulic before Kun would be able to defeat Kyp. With the Solo twins helping him, Kun would be defeated.

Originally posted by tdtd
Shhh don't tell him that it destroys his argument.

Please don't support me. It makes me look bad.

People on this forum hate support.

Responding in that argument because it was pointless? Yes.



Yes.



Last I checked, you weren't Janus. Note, "one of the reasons" anyway.

Nice try.

Making false assumptions... Not researching your claim to correct your false assumptions.. What do you call that, please check the dictionary.

Originally posted by IKC
Last I checked, you weren't Janus. Note, "one of the reasons" anyway.

Nice try.

Geez... nevermind that I've known Janus far longer than you, never mind that he told me that he posts so little becuase of the noobs. He's stated it countless times on DTF and EoD.

Nai Fohl while somewhat favored towards the PT era is certainly no fanboy. He is a respected member of the debating community here. Janus even stated that Nai has stated many good points about DN Luke vs Exar.

Nai and illustrious had the best points in the DN Luke vs. Kun debate, which is why IKC stopped posting weeks ago about it.

Care to point out the false assumptions?

It's not a "false assumption" when they tell me directly why they stop responding to argument X.

Ah yes they tell you directly and yet they continue the debate and come to an agreement and the debate stops. Very convenient IKC, yet youre still hesitant to look at the thread.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ah yes they tell you directly and yet they continue the debate and come to an agreement and the debate stops. Very convenient IKC, yet youre still hesitant to look at the thread.

Quote them for truth where they "came to an agreement," troll.

What's that? You're making it up?

Originally posted by Rayvann
Geez... nevermind that I've known Janus far longer than you, never mind that he told me that he posts so little becuase of the noobs. He's stated it countless times on DTF and EoD.

Nai Fohl while somewhat favored towards the PT era is certainly no fanboy. He is a respected member of the debating community here. Janus even stated that Nai has stated many good points about DN Luke vs Exar.

Here's the three main reasons why I don't post that much here anymore:

1- Tired of the factions. The people who make logical sense (Me, Faunus, IKC, Illustrious, and a few others) make excellent arguments, only to get shouted down by ridiculous, fallacy-ridden opposition. That's not only annoying, it's discouraging after awhile. I've been here a year, literally since the beginning of this subforum, and I don't even like posting in here anymore.

2- Tired of the material. How many matches can we make with the SW universe without using outside material as well? They put the nail in this subforum's coffin when they limited it strictly to SW.

3- Tired of arguing to a wall. People like tdtd make debating ridiculous, because he can't see reason and he won't be swayed. Nai, likewise, never gives an inch, and neither does Glentract. And then there's Hello Friend, and mace=badass and all the other born-again "We've got to stick together because we can't defend our views with good arguments" fanboys who pop in and have their biased and unfounded absolute judgments on every single thread... It's ridiculous. Why would I want to really spend my time here?

Now, I've said before that Nai has made a better argument than tdtd and his goons, but I've never said that he was right or that I had seen enough reason and evidence to be convinced; quite the contrary. But at that point I was so sick of the entire spiel that I stopped posting here. Certainly, I'm just dying to see how Nai and others plan to substantiate just HOW much the 375 planets boosted Raynar's force powers, IF that can be substantiated. Before I get into that debate again, let's just say the effort isn't worth the end result.

make logical sense? Please refer to the thread where you or IKC start stating that Kun could take Ragnos... I don't dispute the fact that your knowledge exceeds mine which results in better arguments, but when other people make logical arguments on Luke or someone against Kun, you scream fanboy, and then get surprised when others do the same to you.

Try quoting me for truth, because I've never said that.

You want me to really search the forum and find where you stated it could go either way?

Originally posted by tdtd
make logical sense?

This is like Hitler or Saddam requesting a fair trial.

Originally posted by tdtd
make logical sense? Please refer to the thread where you or IKC start stating that Kun could take Ragnos... I don't dispute the fact that your knowledge exceeds mine which results in better arguments, but when other people make logical arguments on Luke or someone against Kun, you scream fanboy, and then get surprised when others do the same to you.

Ok neither Janus nor IKC has ever stated that Kun could take Ragnos.

Oh I see, you're the victim here when you do the same thing to others making good arguments for other people.. That makes a lot of sense bro. Someone defends Luke, they're a fan boy, you defend Kun, and youre suddenly making logical arguments.

And it was IKC I believe, I'm looking for it now.

Originally posted by Rayvann
Ok neither Janus nor IKC has ever stated that Kun could take Ragnos.

This is true.

Originally posted by tdtd
You want me to really search the forum and find where you stated it could go either way?

That doesn't mean I said he could take him, does it? As I recall, I used the phrase "up in the air."

By the way, you're committing a logical fallacy:

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore X is false.

Originally posted by tdtd
Oh I see, you're the victim here when you do the same thing to others making good arguments for other people.. That makes a lot of sense bro. Someone defends Luke, they're a fan boy, you defend Kun, and youre suddenly making logical arguments.

And it was IKC I believe, I'm looking for it now.

Translation: I am a fanboy, and I'm upset that you've found me out (Not that I was real good at hiding it anyways). I am trying to poison the well and make you out to be a fanboy, even though you use things like logical arguments, proof, and real sources to support your stance, while I am a tail-coat grabbing troll who spends entirely way too much time on this forum being an *******.

I understand you perfectly, tdtd.

Originally posted by tdtd
And it was IKC I believe, I'm looking for it now.

Dude I have been witness to countless times where IKC has said that Ragnos would defeat Kun. Where are you getting this crap?

Ah up in the air. So that statement ISNT false youre right. But Luke taking Kun is... I'm glad you know how to put the definitions to good use...

Originally posted by Rayvann
Dude I have been witness to countless times where IKC has said that Ragnos would defeat Kun. Where are you getting this crap?


From a Ragnos gauntlet made a month or two ago..

Applying the outcome of one fight to another without a premise is not only foolish but nonsensical. By what passes for your logic, the outcome of a fight between Ragnos and Jar-Jar is "up in the air."

And you're still trying to commit ad hominem tu quoque. And you've still failed to quote me for truth.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t379985.html

I didn't know "Either way" is up in the air... Ouch IKC... Ouch

Originally posted by tdtd
You claimed you never stated something, I claim you did, so I provided my claim with proof, making it an accurate statement.. Try again

Read the thread. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Then you should probably get cracking on learning how it works, tdtd. Never did I say outright that Kun could take Ragnos.

And you're still trying to commit ad hominem tu quoque.

Originally posted by Wesker
Translation: I am a fanboy, and I'm upset that you've found me out (Not that I was real good at hiding it anyways). I am trying to poison the well and make you out to be a fanboy, even though you use things like logical arguments, proof, and real sources to support your stance, while I am a tail-coat grabbing troll who spends entirely way too much time on this forum being an *******.

I understand you perfectly, tdtd.


Thanks for proving my point, Kun fanboy.. Can we say hypocrite?

Which is it IKC, up in the air, either way, or you never saying Kun could outright defeat Ragnos? Get your thoughts in order.

Originally posted by tdtd
Which is it IKC, up in the air, either way, or you never saying Kun could outright defeat Ragnos? Get your thoughts in order.

Your assertion (that I stated that Kun could take Ragnos) is both in factual error and ad hominem tu quoque, a logical fallacy.

What does either way mean to you? That Ragnos could take Kun and vice versa? Don't play stupid because you're denying your own quotes...

Saying the outcome is up in the air (which is the same as saying it could go either way) does not mean that I think Kun could take Ragnos. Your ad hominem tu quoque attempt to put words in my mouth is both a logical fallacy and downright false.

Originally posted by tdtd
Thanks for proving my point, Kun fanboy.. Can we say hypocrite?

Can we say "tdtd is clueless on the irony of the situation?"

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4492/motivator5365be69036835be94087.jpg

What's the matter? I call people fanboys as much as you call other people fan boys with the same basis, but somehow I'm clueless? Way to understand the big picture.

Originally posted by IKC
Saying the outcome is up in the air (which is the same as saying it could go either way) does not mean that I think Kun could take Ragnos. Your ad hominem tu quoque attempt to put words in my mouth is both a logical fallacy and downright false.

You're right, not directly. However either way means either one could take it which also means that you think Kun could take Ragnos. Are you not understanding?

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right, not directly. However either way means either one could take it which also means that you think Kun could take Ragnos. Are you not understanding?

No, apparently you aren't. It's another way of saying that I can't know for sure. Putting words in my mouth in a piss-poor attempt at ad hominem tu quoque isn't going to work, troll.

You're right, up in the air means you're not sure... However "either way" implies that either can win, not that youre not sure... Way to understand the meaning your own text... Calling me a troll doesn't make it true

Your posts are all the evidence I need.

What's that, you make a claim and provide what you call 'evidence', so it's true? Hmmmm sounds familiar.... Oh wait, when I do it it's a logical fallacy.. What a way to live in a dream world.

Evidence must be relevant and reasonably applied.



That would require you to do it. You don't.

Ah so when I claim that youre dodging a question and provide proof for it, in your mind it's irrelevant. You lose the debate as soon as you start lying to yourself IKC..

Originally posted by tdtd
What's the matter? I call people fanboys as much as you call other people fan boys with the same basis, but somehow I'm clueless? Way to understand the big picture.

Same basis? tdtd, I've already gone over this with you many many times.

You- antagonistic ignoramus who provides no logical arguments and attacks those who do. You hold a clear and evident bias for characters, but you do not do any arguing or proving up yourself. You ride on other fanboys and take their ideas while pissing and moaning at the opposition.

People you call fanboys- provide proof, use logic, provice excellent arguments, and review and KNOW the source material.

Same basis my ass, tdtd. Congrats, here's your sign:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6228/surprise7oa.png

Originally posted by Wesker
Same basis? tdtd, I've already gone over this with you many many times.

You- antagonistic ignoramus who provides no logical arguments and attacks those who do. You hold a clear and evident bias for characters, but you do not do any arguing or proving up yourself. You ride on other fanboys and take their ideas while pissing and moaning at the opposition.

People you can fanboys- provide proof, use logic, provice excellent arguments, and review and KNOW the source material.

Same basis my ass, tdtd. Congrats, here's your sign:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6228/surprise7oa.png

I'm a retard? That would make you what? A biased nerd?

Btw, show me where I don't ever support Kun, or ever put down Luke? Research your shit before making false statements.

So anyone that supports Luke is a fanboy? What does that make you in regards to Kun

Originally posted by Wesker
Same basis? tdtd, I've already gone over this with you many many times.

You- antagonistic ignoramus who provides no logical arguments and attacks those who do. You hold a clear and evident bias for characters, but you do not do any arguing or proving up yourself. You ride on other fanboys and take their ideas while pissing and moaning at the opposition.

People you call fanboys- provide proof, use logic, provice excellent arguments, and review and KNOW the source material.

Same basis my ass, tdtd. Congrats, here's your sign:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6228/surprise7oa.png

Hey I love that guy! Bob Ross was an excellent artist.

I like being called a nerd by a guy with several hundred more posts than me in this subforum alone.

False statements=logical fallacy.. Research your stupidity before you spew it out.

And I was to Janus who makes more hypocritical statements than you

research my shit? Please. You don't even have source material to cite for your cocked up excuse for an argument. Don't pretend to be the mature and intelligent one here, troll.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/301/blarg6mm.jpg

My post count (all of which save for perhaps two are in this subforum): 1113

Yours: 1823

QED.

I wasn't calling you a nerd, refer to my previous post, reading comprehension is your friend.

Originally posted by tdtd
I wasn't calling you a nerd, refer to my previous post, reading comprehension is your friend.

Turning your own reasoning around on you, you were calling me a nerd by extension because I agree with him.

And logic is yours... Oops, not!

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8184/understandpanda4fo.jpg

No no, I was calling him a nerd period, don't read more into it than you have to, it might hurt.

That's a cute picture, i'm glad you take the time out of your busy day to search the internet for pictures that fit the debate.

I'm glad you assumed I really had to search for it.

I'm glad you're glad.. Thank you for taking the time to post that.

Originally posted by tdtd
No no, I was calling him a nerd period, don't read more into it than you have to, it might hurt.

So sayeth the man who claims "it could go either way" means "character X will win."

OH, it can go either way doesn't mean either character can win? What an intelligent human being you are.. Please keep posting.

Originally posted by tdtd
OH, it can go either way doesn't mean either character can win? What an intelligent human being you are.. Please keep posting.

Originally posted by tdtd
OH, it can go either way doesn't mean either character can win? What an intelligent human being you are.. Please keep posting.


Someone lacks the reading comprehension skills of simple English.

Originally posted by tdtd
Someone lacks the reading comprehension skills of simple English.

Admitting the problem is the first step to recovery. Congratulations.

So what do you call denial?

Originally posted by IKC
And that's the most important part. You don't read or take into account another's points. That's why we stopped responding to you.

What the...? I do read, I do answer points other people make. I do take them into account. But really...it's getting annoying to enter a thread with post-ROTJ characters involved when 80 % of the people involved in the discussion either haven't read the post-ROTJ stuff, hate it or just start making rediculous claims (such as "the NJO people don't know lightsaber styles".

What do you expect from me ? To accept point which totally contradict the source material that can only be thrown in by people who didn't read the sources ? Look at your own replies here regarding to topics involving Luke. All that I read is that what I've mentioned in my last post:

- Luke sucks in lightsaber combat (see ROTJ)
- Luke doesn't have any knowledge (see ROTJ)
- because Luke trained all people he can easily pwn them
- because Luke trained all people they all must suck because of...

And so on, and so on...You basically act as if Luke - with the exception of a few uber force feats that can't be used in combat - stayed the same untrained farmboy over a timeperiod of 30 years while on the same time the idea that people can become uber powerful in less than 5 years (basically all TOTJ characters) is accepted without questioning it. I call that double-standart.



Nor do IKC, Illustrious and you. Instead when anything else fails you come up with impossible things like:



Exact quantification of the amount of force powers a single person is wielding ? Of course that can't be done. Still we have DE Sidious as an example for a boost in force powers by using a similar technique - and he used only parts of one planets potential.

So can you please tell me why it's illogical to assume that if using a part of one planets potential give a force user a considerable boost in terms of force powers, a far greater amount of potential used would give another force user an equal / greater boost in terms of force powers ?

But instead of simply accepting this since there isn't much to put against that statement people come up with "Either you give me an exact number HOW much Raynar's power was boosted or you drop the entire point". What's that ? Giving an inch ? Great debating manners ? That's like saying "Because we can't exactly tell how much DE Sidious force power was boosted by using the people on Byss he's not stronger than he was in ROTS / ROTJ". Would you accept that statement ?

And this is how must points are threatened here. Just one excerpt from the "DN Luke runs the gauntlet" thread:

Me: "YV can't be affected by force attacks unless you have Vongsense."
X: "But they can be affected by physical side effects - like force lightning."
Me: "They resisted the physical side effects of force lightning completely."
X: "Proof that force lightning generates physical side effects."

You call that discussion ? Logic ? Great argument ? I call that anti-post-ROTJ-bias by people who did acknowledge several times that they didn't like / didn't read the post ROTJ stuff. And why should I give one inch if DN Luke is basically threated like ROTJ Luke with uber force abilities not usable in combat downplaying him completly while putting Kun (and the entire TOTJ gang) on a podestial ?

No. And indeed, you can't tell HOW much a person is boosted unless you have something to compare their stacked abilities to. If the combination of 375 planets was all compressed in one force push, realistically the other side of the planet should have been ripped off and Luke launched into space. If anything, the idea of sapping planets and their inhabitant's force powers does NOT appear to stack that easily. Nihilus drained entire planets of force users, yet he could not accumulate all that power into any one attack. Sidious, who had sapped the lifeforce of billions, was overpowered by Leia, Luke, and a baby. Unless you want to argue the ridiculous idea that that trio >>>> billions of lifeforces in sheer power, it's obvious that draining or drawing on others force powers doesn't stack linearly.



See above.



Actually, I'm saying we don't know HOW much that boost is, or where it caps off. If anything, it seems to be the case that one can only take so muchl such as Tavion being possessed by the spirit of Ragnos. To revive that spirit even that much required draining planets, yet in Tavion's body, Ragnos was apparently defeated by a mere jedi knight. So again, unless you want to argue that Jaden >>>> combined power of the best Sith lord and several planets, it's apparent that one's body can only accept so much force power. And again, there's no feats on such a titanic scale from single force users after such a manuever.



No, that's certainly not what I'm implying. I hope that's clearer by now. I won't deny that a power boost was given, but the number of planets isn't a clear indicator of HOW much it was boosted, and most certainly doesn't differentiate HOW much it was before the boost. Raynar's "cap" for force intake could be pretty low, or perhaps he was unable to use the majority of it at once.

Originally posted by Wesker
No. And indeed, you can't tell HOW much a person is boosted unless you have something to compare their stacked abilities to.

Raynar's actual power by far exceeded those of trained Jedi (he could mind-control people like Jaina and Leia without effort as it seems) and it took the combined power of several Jedi Knights to shrug off these kind of mind-manipulations.
Considering that he seemed to be not the greatest force user in the academy during the raid of the Shadow Academy against Yavin 4 (in fact he nearly got killed while his fellow students did pretty well) as well as in his role in the Myrkr strike team during the NJO (he got wounded heavily in contrary to people like Jaina or Lowbacca) I'd say that boost in force power was immense.



No because it was aimed at Luke and Luke might have absorbed some power of that push the same way Kun "resisted" Odan's "force cut off" attack partitially (especially since the resistance against enemy telekinesis is some of the basic things taught). DE Sidious using force lightning against Luke just put Luke on his ass without considerable effects - Raynar tossed DN Luke through a huge room and he slammed into the wall hard enough to break Luke's helmet and leave a dent in the wall.



Nihilus didn't absorb the power he "ate" it. He wasn't able to drain it and then use it again - he was a black hole in the force. And Sidious in DE, as I've told you, just used a part of the lifeforce of the people on Byss since he gave parts of it to other force users (who turned from none force users into quite capable fighters).
Of course the power doesn't stack linearly and I don't want to argue that - the point is that Sidious with his power-backup didn't manage to do any considerable damage to Luke in DE (who is far weaker than his DN version) when Raynar nearly killed Luke (at least Luke did think that he would have died not wearing the helmet).



That isn't really compareable to Raynar imho. Raynar was basicaly mind-melted with the Killiks and the Joiners in the Nests under his control. He didn't have to absorb their power he just had to channel it through his body. You can simply imagine the entire "hive" as a giant single entity with a single mind.



As I said: Raynar didn't have to intake the force in his body since his body was part of the hive and the hive is basically an entity with a single mind. Raynar is basically compareable to Sekot in the NJO series: Sekot was the "intelligence" of the Zonama Sekot and could use the amassed force power of all living beings on the planet (which appeared to be quite massive since Sekot stopped the entire YV invasion fleet and knocked down the Jedi team visiting the planet with a single attack) - Raynar is the "intelligence" of the Killik nests and can use their amassed force power.

Originally posted by IKC
My post count (all of which save for perhaps two are in this subforum): 1113

Yours: 1823

QED.

Just curious, what does post count have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Wesker
Certainly, I'm just dying to see how Nai and others plan to substantiate just HOW much the 375 planets boosted Raynar's force powers, IF that can be substantiated. Before I get into that debate again, let's just say the effort isn't worth the end result.

Nai and the others? Am I all the sudden a lackey?

Well, here's my best attempt. BTW, don't just say I'm wrong if you can't show why.

If we look at the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious we can see pretty well what the difference is, meaning what the additional power gained from the planet did to him. Sort of at least.

The most powerful feat that we see Sidious do it in ROTS when he lifts three of the Senate Pods into the air high above his head. There is only one way to do this that I can think of. You guessed it, math and science.

BTW, rather then just labeling this pseudoscience like I know you will try to do, prove it wrong if you can.

Lets say that each Senate Pod weighs 150 metric tons. Obviously this is an extremely generous estimate, as thats far more then even a main battle tank. Lets also say that Sidious raised the pods 300 meters into the air. Again, this is extremely generous in YOU"RE favor. And then lets say that he raised the pods to the entire distance in a single second.

So, ROTS Sidious was able to move 150 metric tons with an acceleration of 300 meters per second.

Let's just plug these numbers into the formula: F = m*a

150,000 * 300 = 45,000,000 newtons of force behind that lift. That is a lot.
^The reason that it is 150,000 rather then 150 is because the kilogram is the base unit, not the metric ton.

This equates to 45,000,000 watts as well, as it was done over the course of a single second. Very impressive.

However, DE Sidious has one feat which is FAR more impressive.

Any of the following in bold is a direct quote from stardestroyer.net, which is a very reliable source. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more.

The common belief is that ISDs carry 60 turbolasers. This is very conservative, since 64 cannons are mounted immediately lateral to the command superstructure alone, with scores covering the rest of the hull. However, if we assume there are only 60 cannons, then they must average around 8 million terawatts of firepower each.

^ quoted from the turbolasers commentary section, under the firepower page. If you want to see all of the proof behind it, it's there.

Since 200 turbolasers appears to be the actual number for the number of turbolasers, we'll go with each turbolaser having an output of 2.5 million terrawats.

In the opening scene of AHN we see approximately 25 turbolaser blasts fired from an ISD in 5 seconds. That equates to 5 shots per second.

We see in ROTJ that the Mon Calamari cruisers were able to go 30 minutes before their shields started to fail.

Lets add the above up.

2.5 terrawatts * 5 shots per second = 12.5 terrawatts of fire taken by the shields EVERY SINGLE SECOND.

The cruisers were able to survive for 1,800 seconds before their shields started to fail. From this we can discover how much energy the shields were capable of absorbing.

12,500,000,000,000 watts * 1,800(seconds) = 2.25e+16 watts

2.25e+16 watts means 22,500,000,000,000,000 watts of energy. That is a LOT.

Now, to find out how much more powerful DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious, we look at how much enery Sidious would have generate in the same amount of time, ASSUMING THAT SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP UP THE MAXIMUM BURTS OF ENERGY FOR AN ENTIRE HALF ON WITHOUT REST!! This is extremely in YOUR favor, as the chance of Sidious being able to keep up the maximum burts of energy that we seen from him for an entire half hour is practically zero.

45,000,000watts(the amount of power Sidious produced, as calculated above) * 1,800(seconds) = 81,000,000,000 watts

Since DE Sidious destroyed a fleet with his force storms, we can calculate that how much stronger DE SIdious was then ROTS Sidious.

22,500,000,000,000,000 watts - 81,000,000,000 watts = 2.2499919e+16 watts

2.2499919e+16 = (rounded) 22,499,920,000,000,000 watts.

That is a huge difference in energy.

But wait, there's more.

22,499,920,000,000,000 watts * 375 planets = 8.43747e+18 watts

8.43747e+18 watts = 8,437,470,000,000,000 watts

Notice that the above calculations are based on the idea that DE Sidious only destroyed a single Mon Calamari Cruiser with his force storms. The actual number would be several times higher, as he took on an entire fleet of them.

Notice that I have been extremely generous in your favor throughout proving the power of 375 planets. If you can, prove me wrong. The proof is there, stardestroyer.net.

But what does the above number mean? A lot really. We just have to put it into perspective with Exar.

If we look at Exar's instakill, which you parade around as being able to blast through walls, we will so learn who was more powerful, Raynar or Exar.

Since I don't know through how much of the Temple Exar's blast went through, I am going to assume that he blasted through a rectangular prism that is 10 meters tall, 10 meters wide, and a hundred meters deep and made of iron with such force that he vaporised the entire cube.

He(Wong) states that, to cause flashes that large, the weapons must have vaporised at least one cubic meter of armor. If so, and we assume that the Death Star is made of iron; the four X-Wing cannons output approximately 60 GJ of energy.

So, we can see from this that a block of iron that is one meter long will take 60 GJ of energy to vaporize. If it is done in one second, it will equal 60 GW. If it is done in a tenth of a second it will take 600 GW.

The rectangle that I mentioned Exar blasting through with enough force to vaporise has a mass that is 10,000 times greater then a one meter long cube. 10 * 10 = 100. 100 * 100 = 10,000.

So, we take 600 GW and multiply it by 10,000 and we get 6e+15watts.

6e+15 = 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts

To find out which blast is more powerful the the other and by how much, we'll take Raynar's power figure and divide it by Kun's.

8,437,470,000,000,000 watts / 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts = 1.406245

This shows that Raynar had roughly 40% more power then Exar did. Don't forget that Luke overpowered Raynar.

Don't forget that I was very generous in Exar's favor throughout the procedure you see above. Prove me wrong if you can.

You're wrong. You're operating off of way too many false premises to number, among them:

ROTS Sidious' "most powerful" feat as lifting three pods.

Assigning random nonsensical numbers to objects you don't have the slightest clue about.

"We see" in ROTJ that Mon Calamari cruises go 30 minutes before the fall of their shields... despite the fact that the Imperial fleet was given a direct order by the Emperor not to engage the Rebel fleet.

Assuming that DE Sidious had to go through deflector shields, despite the fact that the Force penetrates deflector shields (because only the ysalimari protected people from Force attacks).

Apparently not believing that Kun's blasts struck through walls, despite that it's shown to do so on-panel.

Assuming that the walls are comparable to iron cubes, when they're in fact made of stone, which is less conductive of energy.

Pulling "Raynar's power figure" out of your ass.

You're dead wrong. QED.

What's it like to waste so much time operating under at least six false premises?

And he's wrong to assume out of hand that it's the extent of his abilities.



Which makes his nonsense about Mon Calamari shields moot.



Actually, it does really matter because he plugged shield strength into the figure for Sidious' power when it has no place in there. Nice try.



And he assumed falsely. This combined with his other false premises makes his argument null and void.



Name the type of stone, Nai, that the massassi used to build the temples of Yavin 4.

What's that? You can't? So that figure for density is arbitrary and meaningless?

And... Do you understand what conductivity means? To make this shorter, the fact that stone is less conductive of energy than iron makes it harder for it to conduct (and thus be affected by) energy.

Originally posted by IKC
And he's wrong to assume out of hand that it's the extent of his abilities.

I think if Sidious could have done more to destroy Yoda he would have done this.



Pretty much.



You did notice that he completely ignored the fact that Sidious did destroy those ships ? What he has done is calculating the amount of energy needed to overcharge the shields while Sidious simply tore them into pieces.

And since the force storm used in the end of DE I pretty much looks like a minor black hole (or as the narrator tells us "a storm of raw energy" that "rends space itself" and the energy needed to generate something like that is apparently much greater than what is needed to overload a ships shields. That's why I said it doesn't matter.



I was using the density of Granite. Give me the name of a stone material with a higher density than iron and talk to me again. Unless the temple wall was constructed out of pure diamonds I don't see a chance you will find one.



Do you understand what conductivity means ? The better a material conducts energy the less it will get affected by the energy itself because it conducts it. Diamonds (nice example) are the best heat conducters you can find and thus they have a very high melting point.

And please pass me the "force energy conduction" chart for different materials or tell me what kind of energy was fired by Kun's amulet.

Apparently you didn't understand the point. Sidious wasn't even showing much effort in lifting the pods. What he can do to destroy Yoda or not is irrelevant; lifting the pods is obviously not the greatest extent of his powers.



And his argument is entirely irrelevant because he's calculating energy for something that never happened.



Want to provide proof that generating a Force Storm "requires more energy" than overloading a capital ship's shields, or are you just operating off of yet another unsupported assumption?



Okay Nai. Give me the density of durasteel, a material that only exists in Star Wars and other sci-fi.

Give me the density of cortosis, a mineral (i.e. ROCK, STONE).

What's that? You mean we can't just assign arbitrary numbers to things we see in the comics without a premise to go on? That's what I thought. Moot.



Right, Nai. That's why our computers are made entirely out of metal and there's not an ounce of silicon or other semiconductors to be found... oh, wait.

So explain rubber, Nai. Rubber doesn't conduct electricity well. Rubber's not much affected by electricity. Hm. Seems like your understanding is ass-backwards.



Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy. I pointed out that he was using a very good conductor as his example when, in the real situation, the material was a poor conductor.

I'm gonna have to give this one to IKC.

kyp kills exar kun cause kyp pwns then jacen and jaina kill ulic

And you're still arguing an irrelevancy, because neither feat shows the extent of Sidious' power. And I'd like to see how DE Sidious "wasn't concentrating much" when he was making a Force Storm.



Too bad that it isn't, because in no way can you provide how much energy it takes to create such a thing.



That's nice and all, but you're operating under yet another false premise:

That a Force Storm is somehow a black hole.

Sorry, it isn't. It is a tear in space-time as we see in the very scan that you found.

Another false premise you assume to be true (this logical fallacy, by the way, is called Begging the Question) is that the Force Storm ripped the ships apart via gravitational energy.

There is no evidence for that, the energy could have easily been electromagnetic or a number of other types.



This doesn't even warrant a response, your numbers leading up to it are invalid since they're based on false premises.



No, I "come up" with making you look like a fool for assigning arbitrary numbers to materials you don't know shit about.



It is not the hardest material in Star Wars, Nai. If stones were as malleable and lightweight as metal, they'd be used as armor as well.

The properties of disruptor weapons are such that they disintigrate materials on the molecular level. Normal blasters and their variants (turbolasers) do not have this property. Your assertions on the relative durability of durasteel are pretty moot and irrelevant.



Irrelevant misdirection. I asked you to provide its density.



There is no material with a scientific name (or even a layman's name) of "stone," Nai. As I'm sure you know, there are different kinds of stones. So unless you can tell us with proof positive what kind of stone the Massassi Temples are built from, any speculation as to their density is entirely irrelevant and any conclusion based on it is based on a false premise.

And starships are armored with metal because metal is malleable and generally lightweight. Most stones (at least those used for construction) are neither.

I asked you these questions because I knew you couldn't answer, thus any attempt to pull a number out of your ass regarding the Massassi temple stones are little more than speculative nonsense.



And you still can't name the stone that they're actually constructed from, so your point is still moot and is still an irrelevant misdirection.



Irrelevant misdirection. I also said, "or other semiconductors."



Rubber is not a semiconductor, Nai. Rubber is not much affected by electricity, hence why the safest place in a thunder storm is in a car with rubber tires.



Really, Nai? Is that why conductivity also applies to thermal energy? Is that why metals typically conduct both of them very well?

Huh. Looks like you're operating under another false premise.

Originally posted by furbys are evil
kyp kills exar kun cause kyp pwns then jacen and jaina kill ulic No,he doesn't ,Fanboy.

I'm giving this one to Kun and Ulic,they're a lot more powerful than Jaina/Jacen and Kyp,those three are wayyy out of their league to fight these two.

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
I'm giving this one to Kun and Ulic,they're a lot more powerful than Jaina/Jacen and Kyp,those three are wayyy out of their league to fight these two.

Since when is Ulic more powerful than Jacen, Jaina and Kyp ? If anything he's the better lightsaber duellist and that's it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when is Ulic more powerful than Jacen, Jaina and Kyp ? If anything he's the better lightsaber duellist and that's it. Exactly,but what Jacen/Jaina and Kyp is this?NJO?Or DN?Thats what I need to know in order to estimate who'll win.

All in the first post.

@IKC - Cars are generally safer places to be in a thunderstorm because the metal of the car's exterior would conduct an electrical surge around the car, instead of straight through it. If rubber tires could protect a car from lightning on their own, I could walk into a tangle of live, severed power lines - naked save for my rubber-soled slippers - and wrap myself in them, fall asleep, wake up ten hours later, and walk away.

Just a point.

Mystery Man how exactly is Ulic more powerful than Kyp, since there is nothing to show that. I would say Exar and Ulic, or Exar takes this, again assuming he can use his amulet blast against a living, competent force user, which nobody has been able to prove thus far. If he can't he'll just curbstomp the trio or whoever is left alive after killing of Ulic, with his saber.

This should be really close.