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Ok Kun invented the Double-Bladed Lightsaber.
Mace Windu invented his own Lightsaber Form.
Both were considered masters at Lightsaber combat.

Who wins? Remember this is lightsabers only!

Exar Kun is considerably superior to Mace, he curbstomps him.

Originally posted by tdtd
Exar Kun is considerably superior to Mace, he curbstomps him.

In Force powers yes... but what about dueling? Really please give reasons.

Mace was the best or lets say second best of his time, behind Yoda. Kun was the best of his time and beat his master with relative ease. We can say Vodo had no defense for Kun because he has never seen the style nor knew how to defend against it. Then again the Jedi of Mace's time were familiar with the double bladed style. It's a tough one but I'd have to go with Kun because he was the best duelist in a martial time.

Since when? In non-canon video game gameplay?

Why wouldn't they be? The style was invented 4,000 years earlier and unless they are completely uninformed of ancient Jeid history, then it's logical to assume they know about the style. You didn't see the duo act surprised when they saw Maul wield his kickass double bladed saber.

The style was invented 4000 years earlier by Exar Kun who passed it on to... nobody. Other double-sabers have been shown to be of the staff-hilted variety and are different from Kun's short hilt.

That and there's this great point that the PT Jedi are totally uninformed about a lot of things.

"The Sith have been extinct for a millenia!"

Kun's name is mentioned and IKC runs to the rescue! haha, amusing.

Anyways, I don't know anything about Kun really, so I have no idea.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Kun's name is mentioned and IKC runs to the rescue! haha, amusing.

Pulling a post from not two days ago...

Originally posted by IKC
Sorgo, that's shameful.

Luke gets his ass curbstomped at this point. Coleman's not going to hold back as Vader did.

You were saying?

Anomaly your post was uncalled for, pipe down seriously.. And IKC it is reasonable to assume the PT Jedi knew the history of the Sith Wars and past Sith/Jedi even if they were uninformed during their time..

But it is not reasonable to assume they knew every picayune detail, including how to fight against the combatants of those wars. The point is, nobody known during the PT except Darth Maul used a double-bladed saber, and even he used a different one from Kun's.

His was literally two weapons fused into one; Kun's was as short as a single saber, even shorter. There's really little similarity save for the dual blades.

Right but again my point is it is more logical to assume they knew more about the weapon, the style, or the history of it, than say Vodo right when Kun turned on the double blade.

I highly doubt they knew so much more about it that they'd put up a better showing than Vodo, known to be a more experienced warrior.

That's like saying because I know about nuclear weapons, I'm more prepared to survive or otherwise resist one than someone who hasn't seen one before. The problem is, I'm still unfamiliar with the weapon and I've not been preparing for it; I don't have any lead suits in my house.

Well we're talking about the degree of knowledge IKC, not making the proper adjustments as a result of that knowledge.

But proper adjustments are the things applicable to a versus fight. Therefore, whatever Mace's knowledge of Kun's weapon (the likely extent of which is he's heard of it) won't help him to any extent.

Assuming they don't know how to adjust to it and since they thought the Sith were extinct for a millennium I guess their incompetence would show with the proper way to combat Kun's style.

Uh, until Mace decimates Yoda in 10 seconds, Kun kirbies him.

Originally posted by tdtd
Assuming they don't know how to adjust to it and since they thought the Sith were extinct for a millennium I guess their incompetence would show with the proper way to combat Kun's style.

The Jedi were incompetent enough to the point that one one in the order had even seen a Sith until Qui-Gon brought it to their attention. No one in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber, much less a short-hilt double-bladed lightsaber.

Could Mace have heard of it? Sure, but that doesn't mean he will have any clue how to stop it. It won't be much of an advantage for him.

Also, Mace would know next to nothing about Kun's style, Kun didn't pass it on to anyone, and most everyone he dueled ended up dead. Kun wouldn't know Mace's style either, they'd go into the fight blind, but Kun's saber superiority wins the fight.

Kun will PWN Mace

In a purely saber duel? He'll win, but I don't see any pwnage.

Originally posted by Illustrious
The Jedi were incompetent enough to the point that one one in the order had even seen a Sith until Qui-Gon brought it to their attention. No one in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber, much less a short-hilt double-bladed lightsaber.

And then somehow Yoda had knowledge about the "Rule of Two" which was installed post Ruusan. How do you know that nobody in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber ? Because it isn't shown ? Jedi (Bastilla, Zez-Kai ?) did obviously use it 4,000 years ago. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.



He at least has Obi-Wan who survived a fight against somebody being aimed with a double-bladed lightsaber. Kun's weapon is different but at least it gives his user the same advantage than a normal double-blade in terms of melee abilities.
If you would get to know that your greatest enemies have returned and the only weapon you have seen them using was a double-bladed lightsaber - would you think about how to fight against such a weapon ?



Well...Kun might be surprised by a Jedi using "aggressive" moves with a lightsaber since the "classical" Jedi philosphy fits form III the best. Assuming the lightsaber styles remained unchanged from Kun's to the PT time on most of the Jedi in Kun's time would have been form I (basics), II (lightsaber-vs-lightsaber) or III (defensive according to their philosophy) practicioneers.

I guess Kun will still most likely win this - but he won't "pwn" Mace in a pure lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And then somehow Yoda had knowledge about the "Rule of Two" which was installed post Ruusan. How do you know that nobody in the order used a double-bladed lightsaber ? Because it isn't shown ? Jedi (Bastilla, Zez-Kai ?) did obviously use it 4,000 years ago. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

I'd like to point out that Yoda's knowledge of the dark side was exceptional. Mace could barely tolerate Sidious' lightning, while Yoda caught it with his bare hands. Yoda surely had 900 years to study the enemy, but even he did not believe that the sith had returned and was skeptical. The PT jedi were not all about practising to defeat the Sith, since the sith were commonly thought to be extinct. And certainly not a threat if one believed that they did exist, until about the time of the Clone Wars. Then the Sith became a concern. Note that in the original description of Makashi it was stated as being the chief form used during the saber to saber duels of the past. Yet in the PT era, only Dooku has mastered it. So while Yoda may have had knowledge of the Rule of Two, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he was constantly training to fight the Sith and their ancient, unique and archaic saber fighting styles. Mace is the same way, just with less experience and force mastery. And really, Qui-Gon Jinn was Dooku's apprentice and supposively one of the best swordsmen of his era, could not so much as make headway against Darth Maul and his doublebladed lightsaber, and the latter was barely trying.

Also, that doublebladed lightsabers were NOT used by PT jedi points to something else, too; a change in philosophy and position. Jedi of the post-Ruusan era had abandoned their battle armor, were keepers of the peace, and the majority practiced Niman, the Diplomat's Style. Doublebladed lightsabers are noted in the KOTOR era for being characteristic of aggressive and reckless jedi and mostly with the sith. Hell, the SW.com databank calls it the Sith Lightsaber. While it's possible that an advanced saber user like Mace can contend well with a good doublebladed saber user, Qui-Gon's living proof that the jedi aren't properly trained against it. And keep in mind, Exar Kun not only uses one with a shorter hilt (That is different in nature and use and speed), but uses it just with one blade equally as well. Hell, with just the bare leverage he had on that little handle, he drove his lightsaber right through Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" staff and his entire body. This is a far cry from old Sidious who was kicked down and disarmed with hardly any effort.

Final point: nothing at all to suggest that Mace is well-prepared for this opponent at all.



Obi-Wan -barely- survived, and while he did do incredible, he was relying heavily on the dark side, and Maul wasn't taking the fight seriously (after all, he just punked Qui-Gon with relative ease). Kun's far stronger and more dangerous than Maul ever was. And the blades are fundamentally different in use because of the shortened handle in Kun's model.



lol... So they encounter one of the sith with a doublebladed lightsaber (And they did not even know if that was the master or the apprentice), so Mace neccessarily went ahead and learned how to fight against a doublebladed lightsaber user, and thus is able to contend with Kun's different model in the hands of someone who pwns jedi masters for a living? Nein.



Not really. Jedi in Kun's day probably relied more on aggressive forms than blaster bolt reflecting ones. Hell, the majority of the sith forces, the Krath armies, even the Republic armies used melee weapons. I didn't really see any jedi in that era practicing a strictly defensive lightsaber style, or agreeing to some sort of obssessive pacifism. If anything, they were hot headed and rather vicious.



If you want us to make assumptions, let me try: the PT jedi were less proficient at pure melee than their earlier counterparts because of the lack of emphasis on melee being neccessary for their lives as jedi.



I agree.

Bad example. I know that the Vietcong used AK47s. Do I have to have seen a Vietcong? Do I have to have seen an AK47?

No, I don't.

They used dual bladed lightsabers with Niman? Certainly no one on the council used dual-bladed lightsabers, no one in Geonosis used dual-bladed lightsabers, and no one depicted in the comics or Temple scenes used dual-bladed lightsabers. There is no premise for your unreasonable assumption.



And Obi-Wan was smacked around the entire duel. He survived because Maul was arrogant, is Mace going to depend on Exar being arrogant? Is his arrogance going to lose him the duel more often than not (like in a versus match)?

Again, knowing about something is different than knowing it and how to counter it.



I think stripping someone of the force is pretty aggressive. The Jedi in those days wore armor, attacked en masse, and were far from being labeled as diplomats as the PT era Jedi. What makes you think that all the attacks Kun encountered were passive?



That works.

For some reason I don't see Mace lasting much longer than Vodo.

I do; Mace's lightsaber can't be ''broken.''

Yeah, but assuming we replace a lightsaber with Vodo's stick for that fight.... would you want to be smashed with that much force while holding a lightsaber across your body?

No, but then again, I doubt that Vodo would put himself in such a position. You can't exactly hold the other end of a lightsaber like you can a stick.

True, but being hit with that kind of force would be ridiculous to tolerate. Remember how Vos' strength put Mace back on his heels.

That was more the surprise of him using Vaapad (which Mace thought only he, Depa, and Sora could utilize) than raw strength, but I get your point. However, Mace is a physical monster on his own: you saw what he and Kar did to eachother. The force of them slamming together in the air created shockwaves, and actually suspended them there.

Yeah, you're right too. Either way, this is going to be one hell of a match, but I place my money on Kun. Now... Mace and Kun versus Yoda and Dooku... who wins?

In a duel. . . ? Damn, that's actually a good one. *ponders*

Eh? It's not that great a match. The "zomg unique form" duo.

Originally posted by IKC
Eh? It's not that great a match. The "zomg unique form" duo.

Probably, but if so, it'd be in a depressingly long battle. You have Yoda, who could probably run rings around either Mace or Kun, and Dooku, the master of Makashi, against two lightsaber prodigies with their own dastardly styles. I'm still undecided. . .

The master of Makashi in his own, less martial time. And who's to say Yoda can run rings around Kun? Sure, Yoda might be hard to hit, but that doesn't mean he's going to be doing any hitting of his own. Kun's got all the time in the world, Yoda will get tired.

I'd like to point out that Obiwan was not getting pwned by Maul. I don't know what fight you were watching Illustrious but I saw Obiwan take control of the fight and then get force pushed only to use the force and win.

Kun was not even the best duelist of his era. Vodo would give Mace more trouble then Kun would. Kun was only able to defeat Vodo because of the fact that his staff was not strong enough for Kun's double bladed saber. He was a better duelist then him, and the factor that enabled him to win wouldnot be an issue in a battle with Windu. Windu on the other hand was argueably the best duelist of The Golden age of saber dueling. He would pwn Kun.

Originally posted by namun66
Kun was not even the best duelist of his era. Vodo would give Mace more trouble then Kun would. Kun was only able to defeat Vodo because of the fact that his staff was not strong enough for Kun's double bladed saber. He was a better duelist then him, and the factor that enabled him to win wouldnot be an issue in a battle with Windu. Windu on the other hand was argueably the best duelist of The Golden age of saber dueling. He would pwn Kun.

The illogical reasoning of Numan, remember that the narrator states that Vodo made his staff as powerful as Kun's saber. You have made an incorrect statement, using your biased opinion and assuming that its fact. The Golden Age of Saber Dueling? Yep, where there is no real contest of sabers, where Form II Makashi is never used, and perfected by only 2 people in the PT era.

Actually there is not much proof that Kun is a much better duellist than Vodo IMO in saber combat and no real proof that his staff is more/equally powerful to his saber because....

Vodo's stick can be broken.
Vodo hit Kun with his staff, and as most it broke his arm.

We know that before Kun went to the darkside they sparred. At the end of the sparring Kun took two swords and broke Vodo's staff. At that moment he told Kun that he was the best student he had ever trained.

After a while Kun turned to the dark side and confronted Vodo, who defeated him if I remember it right. (Broke his arm or something)

Then a time after that Kun confronted him again and Kun broke his staff to win. So actually, Kun could be equally good as a saber user as before, he broke his staff then too, but he sure as hell wasen't the better duellist.

Originally posted by Wesker
I'd like to point out that Yoda's knowledge of the dark side was exceptional. Mace could barely tolerate Sidious' lightning, while Yoda caught it with his bare hands. Yoda surely had 900 years to study the enemy, but even he did not believe that the sith had returned and was skeptical.

Well...still Yoda couldn't have run across the rule of two without knowing about Sith in post-Ruusan times since that rule was installed after Ruusan. And I don't see him finding a Sith holocron somewhere on Coruscant.



The point is that they did notice that the Sith must have returned and they did know that there is another Sith left after killing Maul. With that knowledge - wouldn't you focus on training to be able to defeat Dark Siders rather than keeping up your focus on diplomacy ? And they had nearly 2 decades to figure out how to defend against a Sith. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon never thought about having to fight another lightsaber user that strong. And Obi-Wan immediatly changed his style after that battle.



Well...you still have tons of form IV and V practicioners and both forms are descriped to be aggressive not even talking about Mace and his Vaapad / form VII use. Therefore I fail to see while people who stick to that forms shouldn't use a double-bladed lightsaber. In fact at least Jastus Farr (appearing in Purge and the ROTS game) and Komari Vosa used double-bladed lightsabers. So even if it was extremely uncommon among Jedi in the PT era some still used it.



Why would they need anything apart from forms I, II and III ? Form II obviously offers the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and if the entire purpose was to content with melee weapon users / Dark Jedi / Sith this would be the best form to do so. At least I don't see them using styles on the edge of the Dark Side like form VII or Mace's Vaapad.



How was melee skill neccessary for the TOTJ era Jedi ? They went through a 1000 year period of peace as far as we know (with Freedon Nadd being the only noticeable Dark Sider) and apart from that they did receive less training than the PT era people. Andur Sunrider didn't impress me when getting pwned by a bunch of bandits while some Jedi in the PT era were feared for their combat ablities (especially Mace Windu - in Shatterpoints two of the guards on Haruun Kal thought of them selves being lucky surviving a fight with a naked and unarmed Mace...not even talking about the fist fight with Kar "jungle badass" Vastor).

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/1406/vodostaff0kb.th.jpg

You were saying?



Funny how it didn't break before Kun got serious. Thwapping things with a lightsaber tends to break them.



He hit him, while Kun was still his apprentice in a completely different fight. And it broke his arm? What are you smoking?



Yes. And we know that Vodo beat him before Kun called the second saber to his hand. What's your point?



You remember incorrectly and you're making things up. Kun's arm was never broken, he only fought Vodo twice. Once as an apprentice, the second time as the Dark Lord of the Sith where he toyed with and curbstomped Vodo.



Oh, he wasn't the better duelist? That's why he literally toyed with Vodo the entire time and then, the minute he got serious about fighting, Vodo found himself cleaved in half?

QED.

Vodo's stick was able to withstand a lightsaber to a certain degree and Kun was just too powerful for him and was able to break it. Vodo was the superior duelist but his staff was simply not able to withstand the power that Kun was able to generate with his saber. And the dialogue simply refers to Kun's single saber and was not taking into account the power that can be produced by a double bladed saber or two sabers.

The narration is clear. The staff was made "more powerful" than a lightsaber.



Bullshit. Vodo was the superior duelist, that's why Kun handed his ass to him when he got serious?

Vodo was the superior duelist, that's why he was never able to get a hit on him?



Which would be equal to what one can generate with a single saber.

You can't hit with both sides of a double saber at once.

Originally posted by IKC
The narration is clear. The staff was made "more powerful" than a lightsaber.


No. Vodo was able to make the staff more powerful then KUN'S saber. The fact that when wielding dual sabers and a saber staff, Kun was able to break through the middle of Vodo's staff shows that it was not strong enough the withstand the added speed (and the fact that Kun was able to generate more speed means more power) of the dual sabers and saber staff.


Bullshit. Vodo was the superior duelist, that's why Kun handed his ass to him when he got serious?


When he "got serious", he was not able to outduel Vodo but was simply able to overpower him with his saber staff.


Vodo was the superior duelist, that's why he was never able to get a hit on him?


Neither was Kun. He had to use the power of his saber staff to break through his stick.


Which would be equal to what one can generate with a single saber.
You can't hit with both sides of a double saber at once.


Well double bladed sabers enable more speed which in turn enables more power. And I take it that I don't have to explain to you how dual sabers can generate more power.

Unless Kun's saber is wildly different in form and function from any other saber (a premise there's zero logic or evidence for) then Vodo's staff is more powerful than any lightsaber.

That and adding another saber doesn't necessarily add speed. Lightsabers are weightless, whatever "power" exists came from Kun's physical strength more than the weapon itself.

That and you have no premise to assume that Kun merely plowed through the staff physically. For all you know, he was able to dispel the Force power that Vodo applied to the staff.



This is why Kun was on the offense the entire (short) time he got serious and quickly defeated Vodo? Sorry. He curbstomped him.



Except then he got a hit on him and the fact that Vodo was never able to come close to hitting Kun shows Kun was the superior duelist.



Excuse me? How the **** does it "enable more speed?" This isn't a video game. Speed is entirely dependant on the man's physical strength and the weight of the weapon. Lightsabers are weightless except for the handle. Ergo, adding another blade does jack shit for making a weapon faster.

Simple physics is your friend.

And yes, you should explain how adding another saber suddenly equals "more power," Numan. Hurry up, before you're banned again.

Originally posted by namun66
Vodo's stick was able to withstand a lightsaber to a certain degree and Kun was just too powerful for him and was able to break it. Vodo was the superior duelist but his staff was simply not able to withstand the power that Kun was able to generate with his saber. And the dialogue simply refers to Kun's single saber and was not taking into account the power that can be produced by a double bladed saber or two sabers.

What are you talking about? You can't say Vodo is the superior duelist when Kun creates his own technique and Vodo has no defense for it, which is the case. I'm sure we can sit here and argue who will win with 1 saber but it's not the case. His stick got broken, and he got pwned... End of story.

Originally posted by tdtd
What are you talking about? You can't say Vodo is the superior duelist when Kun creates his own technique and Vodo has no defense for it, which is the case. I'm sure we can sit here and argue who will win with 1 saber but it's not the case. His stick got broken, and he got pwned... End of story.

Yes I can. He was the better duelist and his staff was simply unable to withstand the power that Kun was able to generate. Give them both the same weapon and Vodo would destroy him.

Originally posted by namun66
Yes I can. He was the better duelist and his staff was simply unable to withstand the power that Kun was able to generate. Give them both the same weapon and Vodo would destroy him.

"Pass what you're smoking."

Begging the question, logical fallacy.

What do you mean given both had the same weapon? I'm sure if Kun could use Sadow's amulet an unlimited amount of times he'd be the most uber force user ever. If statements and situations are also logical fallacies. If my package was 1 inch bigger I'd be a porn star, big deal.

What package?

NVM

I just don't get how his staff was more powerful than the saber. It could not resist a strike with too much force put behind it.
And the scan you showed IKC proves that the staffs strike was nothing more than a normal strike. If that was a real saber he would have cut the hand off, but as you said, his arm didn't even break.
If you explain it I'll be greatful.

Suspension of disbelief is pretty much a prerequisite when dealing with science fiction. The omniscient narrator stated it was more powerful, thus it was so.



The narrator doesn't say the staff can cut like a lightsaber, dude. That, and it's not really clear that Vodo was using his power at the moment he hit his apprentice's hand. It's quite possible that he wasn't.

Ok then.
But really, in what way is it more powerful than a saber?

It's powerful enough to withstand a lightsaber, not more powerful than a lightsaber or enough to cut through a lightsaber Kamikz.

oh ok...but still not powerful enough to withstand a awefully strong strike from a lightsaber, which really doesen't describe why it is "more" powerful than a lightsaber.

The statement itself is quite ambiguous... That's the problem with most of the comics, they don't specify..

Again, the narrator is clear. It is stated to be "more powerful" than a lightsaber. Take that to mean what you like, but we do know that, at bare minimum, it can block a lightsaber.

That statement makes no sense. If it was indeed more powerful than a lightsaber, then it would be able to slash through a lightsaber, like that famous denari lightsaber that was founded. Instead it's powerful enough to block a lightsaber, so that statement is in fact unclear.

That doesn't necessarily follow. "More powerful" is ambiguous, it doesn't mean it'd be able to slash through.

So what would more powerful than a lightsaber mean to you?

Originally posted by tdtd
Anomaly your post was uncalled for, pipe down seriously.. And IKC it is reasonable to assume the PT Jedi knew the history of the Sith Wars and past Sith/Jedi even if they were uninformed during their time..

Errr...No. I just think its amusing how much IKC loves Kun.

An object can be more powerful then another object and still be unable to break it TDTD.

Well he was pretty impressive so it isn't as bad as the Plo Koon fanboys out there.

There are plo koon fanboys?

There used to be a lot of them.

Yep.Wesker's right.There IS still a lot of them though.

Yeah, but can we name one? Wait... Let me use my special Plo Koon fanboy screen name generator...

Pick one:

Plo
Koon
Kun
Plow
44
1992
66
69
Rulez
Pwnz
Foolz
Saburgod
Furcegod

Just mix and match those and you have a bonafide Plo Koon fanboy screen name!

hahaha 1992

Originally posted by tdtd
That statement makes no sense. If it was indeed more powerful than a lightsaber, then it would be able to slash through a lightsaber, like that famous denari lightsaber that was founded. Instead it's powerful enough to block a lightsaber, so that statement is in fact unclear.

Except, you can't slash through light.

There is no Penari Lightsaber.It was a lie,created by Supershadow.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually there is not much proof that Kun is a much better duellist than Vodo IMO in saber combat and no real proof that his staff is more/equally powerful to his saber because....

Vodo's stick can be broken.
Vodo hit Kun with his staff, and as most it broke his arm.

We know that before Kun went to the darkside they sparred. At the end of the sparring Kun took two swords and broke Vodo's staff. At that moment he told Kun that he was the best student he had ever trained.

After a while Kun turned to the dark side and confronted Vodo, who defeated him if I remember it right. (Broke his arm or something)

Then a time after that Kun confronted him again and Kun broke his staff to win. So actually, Kun could be equally good as a saber user as before, he broke his staff then too, but he sure as hell wasen't the better duellist.

The Narrator is quite clear that Vodo made his stick as powerful as a lightsaber, adding to the fact, the second time Vodo confronted Kun, he was there with the intention of stopping him, and not there to simply die, if Vodo wasn't confident that his stick could defeat a lightsaber, then he wouldn't have used one, reason being Kun was the the villian behind the entire war, and his master as a Jedi would do anything possible to stop him.

Kun, was leagues above himself later on, its quite obvious that he was simply toying with Vodo, for the first few moments of the fight, when Kun got serious, Vodo was dead.

Most of you people, say that Kun won merely because Vodo used a stick, consider that when a stronger lightsaber duelist faced off against another lightsaber duelist, that when they are deadlocked, the stronger is also able to break through his/her opponents guard and destroy them. In the comics its quite clear Kun applied a fair amount of strength, and enough strength that Vodo could not hold up against it.

Originally posted by Deception
The Narrator is quite clear that Vodo made his stick as powerful as a lightsaber, adding to the fact, the second time Vodo confronted Kun, he was there with the intention of stopping him, and not there to simply die, if Vodo wasn't confident that his stick could defeat a lightsaber, then he wouldn't have used one, reason being Kun was the the villian behind the entire war, and his master as a Jedi would do anything possible to stop him.

Kun, was leagues above himself later on, its quite obvious that he was simply toying with Vodo, for the first few moments of the fight, when Kun got serious, Vodo was dead.

Most of you people, say that Kun won merely because Vodo used a stick, consider that when a stronger lightsaber duelist faced off against another lightsaber duelist, that when they are deadlocked, the stronger is also able to break through his/her opponents guard and destroy them. In the comics its quite clear Kun applied a fair amount of strength, and enough strength that Vodo could not hold up against it.

I already answered this, dude.

sorry IKC if that annoys you!

PS. Why is tdtd banned?

I said it because you could have spared yourself the effort.

That and you were accepting the many false premises and arguing them, which is also a waste of effort.

Because he pissed Rex off.And I'm not sure if Kun can take this.Remember,almost every Jedi back during the Sith War times used Form II,a non-agressive form.Mace uses Vaapad,an agressive form.Kun would have one hellva fight on his hands,and he wouldn't be expecting it either.

Well...we have to take into account the fact that Mace Windu is Shaft and is also some big black guy who reads the bible in Pulp Ficiton. it is perfectly logical that Exar will merely surrender to the vast power and perfection that is the #1 BMF.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Well...we have to take into account the fact that Mace Windu is Shaft and is also some big black guy who reads the bible in Pulp Ficiton. it is perfectly logical that Exar will merely surrender to the vast power and perfection that is the #1 BMF.

Originally posted by Fox5
Because he pissed Rex off.And I'm not sure if Kun can take this.Remember,almost every Jedi back during the Sith War times used Form II,a non-agressive form.Mace uses Vaapad,an agressive form.Kun would have one hellva fight on his hands,and he wouldn't be expecting it either.

And why exactly? Form II is Makashi, the refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's exactly what you want to get caught using when you're fighting another lightsaber wielder. It's a far cry from Form VI.

Dooku used Form II, and we know Dooku was able to defeat Mace in a spar, and Dooku was one of the few remaining practitioners of Form II, it only stands to reason that with more practitioners, there would be more individuals who were better at it.

Besides, are you going to argue that Kun, who cleaved his master in half, isn't aggressive?

No,I am mearly saying that Kun wouldve most likely prepared ,solidly, himself against a Form II user,but we know Mace uses Form VII,it's an agressive form,Kun would assume that Mace would just be another Form II practitioner,he wouldn't expect Mace to be an agressive,not defensive,fighter,thus making it more difficult to defeat Mace.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Well...we have to take into account the fact that Mace Windu is Shaft and is also some big black guy who reads the bible in Pulp Ficiton. it is perfectly logical that Exar will merely surrender to the vast power and perfection that is the #1 BMF.

Why is their still discussion on the matter?

Originally posted by Fox5
No,I am mearly saying that Kun wouldve most likely prepared ,solidly, himself against a Form II user,but we know Mace uses Form VII,it's an agressive form,Kun would assume that Mace would just be another Form II practitioner,he wouldn't expect Mace to be an agressive,not defensive,fighter,thus making it more difficult to defeat Mace.

You want the spacebar. . .

Originally posted by Fox5
No,I am mearly saying that Kun wouldve most likely prepared ,solidly, himself against a Form II user,but we know Mace uses Form VII,it's an agressive form,Kun would assume that Mace would just be another Form II practitioner,he wouldn't expect Mace to be an agressive,not defensive,fighter,thus making it more difficult to defeat Mace.

WTF? He's going to prepare for a Form II user? He'll at least recognise Windu's form as a variant of Juyo. Whereas Windu won't recognise Kun's form at all...

I doubt many in Kun's era used an incomplete form. . .

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Well...we have to take into account the fact that Mace Windu is Shaft and is also some big black guy who reads the bible in Pulp Ficiton. it is perfectly logical that Exar will merely surrender to the vast power and perfection that is the #1 BMF.

Originally posted by Traya
WTF? He's going to prepare for a Form II user? He'll at least recognise Windu's form as a variant of Juyo. Whereas Windu won't recognise Kun's form at all... But he wouldn't expect a Jedi to use an incomplete form.Not many back in those times did that.Kun might not even recognize it,and even if he did, as you said, it is a 'variant' of Juyo,not Juyo itself,therein lies Kun's disadvantage.And yes,Kun would prepare and train to counter a Form II user(as I said before,most Jedi of that era were utilizing that Form).And as someone here said,Windu spared with Dooku(he may have lost but do you think he would be stupid as to not train to counter Form II aswell?),Windu WOULD recognize Kun's Form as the same form Dooku used but more agressive.

Kun doesn't use Makashi, dude.

Ditto.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun doesn't use Makashi, dude. Which form does he use?Noone has ever mentioned it in this thread?My guess would be Niman but even so,Kun still has a disadvantage,and maybe now Windu does too.

Originally posted by Fox5
But he wouldn't expect a Jedi to use an incomplete form.Not many back in those times did that.Kun might not even recognize it,and even if he did, as you said, it is a 'variant' of Juyo,not Juyo itself,therein lies Kun's disadvantage.And yes,Kun would prepare and train to counter a Form II user(as I said before,most Jedi of that era were utilizing that Form).And as someone here said,Windu spared with Dooku(he may have lost but do you think he would be stupid as to not train to counter Form II aswell?),Windu WOULD recognize Kun's Form as the same form Dooku used but more agressive.

Since when was "preparation" an element in this match? There's no prep time, it's literally as if they are dropped into a ring and duke it out. Kun would recognize some parts of Mace's style, Mace would see Kun's style as completely foreign. Advantage there? Kun, if anyone.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Since when was "preparation" an element in this match? There's no prep time, it's literally as if they are dropped into a ring and duke it out. Kun would recognize some parts of Mace's style, Mace would see Kun's style as completely foreign. Advantage there? Kun, if anyone. True,but as you said,Kun would recognize,some of Windu's form,not all.And remember,Mace is the Master of this form,not someone trying it out for the first time.He faired pretty good in the Mace vs Palpy duel, even though he was on the defensive most of the time,and won.(and yes he WON fair and square,GL said it himself).Now,I'm not sure what exactly Palpy's lightsaber form is,but that proves that Mace didn't just know Form I and VII.Otherwise,he wouldn't have faired that long against Palpy.

Kun uses a unique form that is as yet unnamed and will probably continue to be. He didn't pass it on, and nobody he fought told any tales.

Fox5, ever heard of the space bar? Not trying to be an ass, but its kinda annoying reading things when you type like this: even though he was on the defensive most of the time,and won.(and yes he WON fair and square,GL said it himself).

There are spaces in there on occasion, lol

Sorry, ((The Anomally)).

Didn't the PT jedi occasionally encounter double bladed swords? If so then they wouldn't be completely unprepared with a double bladed saber. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi were able to fight pretty well against Maul, and Maul was only able to slay Jinn because he was a better duelist and not because his style was too unfamiliar to Jinn.

numan, you are truly an idiot.

Originally posted by Fox5
True,but as you said,Kun would recognize,some of Windu's form,not all.And remember,Mace is the Master of this form,not someone trying it out for the first time.He faired pretty good in the Mace vs Palpy duel, even though he was on the defensive most of the time,and won.(and yes he WON fair and square,GL said it himself).Now,I'm not sure what exactly Palpy's lightsaber form is,but that proves that Mace didn't just know Form I and VII.Otherwise,he wouldn't have faired that long against Palpy.

Uh, do you know what Vaapad is all about?

Vaapad itself is considered a "completion" of Juyo, but the difference is purely mental. Vaapad is using the dark side to channel one's bridled rage into an effective but uncorrupting fighting force. Read Shatterpoint, it's practically the Vaapad how-to guide. Juyo itself is described as this:

Form VII
Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate descipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for a much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy since that focus is wielded more broadly. Form VII draws upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure verges on explosion. Form VII is still under development since so few can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art.

Now, Juyo WAS noted by the KOTOR era, not forty years after Kun. I could be shooting in the dark here, but I'd be VERY surprised if it did not exist and/or had been seen in Kun's era. Probably very rare all across the board, but the point remains: it was known. Now, Vodo was a six hundred year old jedi master, possessing sith knowledge, the ability to make his staff stronger than a lightsaber, etc. etc. At the very least IF Juyo existed during that time, THEN it stands to reason that Vodo knew it, possibly studied it. Now, this is all speculation, but I'm putting it out here to note that the idea of Vaapad being SO foreign he can't deal with it is silly. Likewise, swordplay itself has lots of universal moves and goals, so while one or two moves might be unusual, the basic array remains the same. Hence why Obi-Wan was able to successfully fight Maul (A Juyo user, btw) despite barely being a padawan and relatively a novice to the art of swordplay.

Originally posted by Fox5
Sorry, ((The Anomally)).

No, no, I was just pointing it out, it just makes it easier to read and understand what your saying if you space things. Not trying to be an ass, just people will take your points more seriously if you put at least a little effort into your typing (though your still pretty damn good, you should see some other people that have made appearances throughout the years here...lol) Just trying to make it easier for you. Your points are valid and good, so it makes sense to make your typing reasonable as well, since people will take you more seriously.

Anyways, s'all coo'.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun uses a unique form that is as yet unnamed and will probably continue to be. He didn't pass it on, and nobody he fought told any tales.

Yup, Kun is the greatest.

Kun isn't the "greatest"...lol. He's good, but hes not THAT good. Fox is right, Ragnos pwns.

Why are you getting off topic here? This would be a great saber fight, Kun would by no means curbstomp Mace but he is the superior duelist. ANd if you want to talk about the greatest, think to the first ever dark jedi. The most powerful are usually the first ones.. Or maybe the first jedi interbred with the Sith...

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Well...we have to take into account the fact that Mace Windu is Shaft and is also some big black guy who reads the bible in Pulp Ficiton. it is perfectly logical that Exar will merely surrender to the vast power and perfection that is the #1 BMF.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why are you getting off topic here? This would be a great saber fight, Kun would by no means curbstomp Mace but he is the superior duelist. ANd if you want to talk about the greatest, think to the first ever dark jedi. The most powerful are usually the first ones.. Or maybe the first jedi interbred with the Sith...

Since when were the first ever the most powerful? No, you think to the greatest era of the Sith, that's usually the safest best.

I'm referring to the first being the most powerful.. First Lycan, first Vampire, etc... The sith from the golden age learned from the people before them and so on and so on.. It's very logical to say the first dark Jedi and the first interbred Sith were very powerful.

Originally posted by tdtd
I'm referring to the first being the most powerful.. First Lycan, first Vampire, etc... The sith from the golden age learned from the people before them and so on and so on.. It's very logical to say the first dark Jedi and the first interbred Sith were very powerful.

This has nothing to do with Vampires and Lycans, going under the concept that the first were the most powerful is foolish. Were the first Jedi the most powerful too? The first Republic? The first human empire?

Trying to integrate outside sources of fantasy into a universe that was never designed to parallel it = failure.

Ok but again, the ancient sith learned from their predecessors and so forth, my point is it is logical to assume the first dark jedi and sith were very powerful as their magic was passed down.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok but again, the ancient sith learned from their predecessors and so forth, my point is it is logical to assume the first dark jedi and sith were very powerful as their magic was passed down.

No it isn't. That's only if you're saying that the Sith never developed anything at all. Naga Sadow himself is example of just the opposite.

Don't prefix things with "it's logical to assume" when it's just your opinion.

By this logic, the pupil can never exceed the teacher, the latter generation can never grow past the former, the 21st century society is weaker than the 2nd century society. Bullshit.

I'm not saying Sadow didn't develop anything himself, but where did Sadow get his powers from? His master Simus, who got it from his master. Maybe it's wrong to put the first beings above everybody else but the ancient sith's power obviously originated from those before them.

Originally posted by tdtd
I'm not saying Sadow didn't develop anything himself, but where did Sadow get his powers from? His master Simus, who got it from his master. Maybe it's wrong to put the first beings above everybody else but the ancient sith's power obviously originated from those before them.

And were developed, refined, and added to by later generations.

I don't dispute that.

Originally posted by tdtd
I don't dispute that.

Then you can't say the first ones were the strongest.

Ok but I can say the first ones were very powerful.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ok but I can say the first ones were very powerful.

Again, inconclusive. The first ones were weak enough to be cast out of the order.

Tell me, were the first Romans "very powerful"? Were the first Greeks "very powerful"? Were the first Egyptians "very powerful"?

No, it seems to me (and it's shown on panel with all the developments and constructions they've made) that they built their civilization from the ground up, they attained knowledge through the ages up until they got to their "golden age."

hmmm interesting... But at the same time the Sith of the Golden age were also defeated by the republic.

Originally posted by tdtd
hmmm interesting... But at the same time the Sith of the Golden age were also defeated by the republic.

Not by any stretch, they were defeated by a combination of Gav + Convicts + Insurrection + Empress Teta if I say so myself. Read Fall of the Sith Empire, the situation was hardly normal.

The split empire itself would have conquered both the Republic and Teta's empire if it wasn't for Gav's last second betrayal.

Adding to that, it was not the full Sith Empire that Sadow threw at the Republic, the Empire was divided between Kressh's Armada and Sadow's Armada.

This is true, I just re-read Fall of the Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Kun would recognize some parts of Mace's style, Mace would see Kun's style as completely foreign. Advantage there? Kun, if anyone.

I doubt that Kun generated every single movement used in his style personally meaning he had a knowledge base (most likely the known styles) and developed his unique style out of it. I doubt that Mace will see Kun's style as "completly foreign".

On the other handside we really don't know if the seven forms did exist all in Kun's era. I know they are displayed in KotoR but the "inventors" of the forms state that:
- form III became popular with the advancement of blaster technology (if you have a look at TOTJ most people are wielding melee weapons like the Krath or very heavy guns e.g. the beastriders)
- form IV arose "centuries" before the events displayed in the PT (possible the time of the Brotherhood of Darkness)
- form V was "invented" after that or at the same time
- form VI became the "standart" during Palpatine's reign (which means that it was mainly used by Jedi who started training ~25 years before TPM)
- form VII (requiring mastery of IV and V couldn't have been invented before them)

So it's basically speculation that Kun did even know about the styles that were needed to use form VII not even talking about form VII itself or Mace's Vaapad (which is still an extension of form VII). So Mace's style might be exactly equal foreign to Kun while Mace might knew the "basics" of Kun's style.

I'm not saying that Mace will win because of that (he has a unique weapon against him and a style he will - if anything - only recognize in basic movements) but Kun on the other handside will be confronted with a muscle-packed Jedi using a very agressive style incorporating darker emotions (which is VERY uncommon if not completely unknown in his era).