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Who wins this one Superman or The Surfer no prep for either

This has been done before
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29475&highlight=Superman+vs+Silver+Surfer

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370715&highlight=Superman+vs+Silver+Surfer

This one has been done like a million times already.

Superman wins. He simply dodges SS's blasts, get near him, and go h2h with him.

Originally posted by Darth Kal-El
Superman wins. He simply dodges SS's blasts, get near him, and go h2h with him.

Just bump the other one if you want to make a point. Or read it, as the very strategy has been gone over many, many times.

(Surfer is WAY the hell faster than Supes. The fight lasts all of a millisecond. Before Superman can react, Surfer has him analyzed via cosmic awareness and dead via a blast of kryptonite radiation)

You know whats funny about your post Darth Kal?? Thats exactly what current DC would have Surfer do if they wrote the fight. Have him follow in the footsteps of MM and other high powered characters that can take a possible majority over Superman. Forget most if not all their notable powers and engage the Man of Steel in the manner where he's most likely to dominate. Surfer and MM not using their powers wisely is the epitome of PIS. And barring that icky comic virus, Superman should lose to either very quickly.

Originally posted by UniOmni
You know whats funny about your post Darth Kal?? Thats exactly what current DC would have Surfer do if they wrote the fight. Have him follow in the footsteps of MM and other high powered characters that can take a possible majority over Superman. Forget most if not all their notable powers and engage the Man of Steel in the manner where he's most likely to dominate. Surfer and MM not using their powers wisely is the epitome of PIS. And barring that icky comic virus, Superman should lose to either very quickly.

I have to somewhat agree that Superman would put a one million punch pounding on the Surfer, but only if the Surfer didn't know that Superman's powers were derived from the sun... if he did know this, he would be able to reduce Supermans level of strength in seconds, gaining the upper hand, and knocking him out. The reason I said that Superman could punch him out, is because I saw the Runner do the same.... I know that the Runner was messing with the Surfers brain in that fight, but Superman would make up for the lack of emotional manipulation with sheer strength... I'm not saying that this fight would be over in moments, but I see an unprepped Surfer getting beaten more times than not... if he only knew....

Superman pwns. If Spider-man can dodge lasers, Superman can dodge SS's blasts. His strength is nearly the same as Silver Surfer. So he gets near SS and fights him.

SS wins. There's nothing in Supes arsenal that can give him a win, except torquasm vo.

fool! he can beat ss in h2h combat....

Superman does pwn in a battle of brutestrength with most badguys. And he's stronger than Surfer initially, but Surfer can easily amp his strength with the ambient energy of the universe. So thats a dud. Surfer is too Superman what superman is to Hulk in speed. That much faster. He also has cosmic awareness, which will allow him to scan superman and see his biology and what makes him tick. He is a decent telepath and can erect immensely powerful forcefields. He can even imprison people in his board. Anything you've seen done by a bad guy in comics, Surfer can probably do to some degree. Like i said before. The only way Superman wins this is if Surfer suddenly emulates Jonn and forgets most of his powerset excluding the whole punch and repeat technique. Well written, a curbstomp of ugly proportions.

SS has nanosecond reaction times, so beating him in h2h will be difficult. Supes most likely wins in h2h, but in a fight with all their powers allowed, SS wins. If Supes had Pre-Crisis powers, then I would give him the win because he's not as vulnerable to k-nite or red sun light like he used to be.

What exactly is T-Vo?? I've seen it called mental reality warping where the one with the most willpower wins......If thats the case, then thats so obviously geared towards superman's strengths that it's sickening. And the writer who thought of it should be fired.

Originally posted by UniOmni
What exactly is T-Vo?? I've seen it called mental reality warping where the one with the most willpower wins......If thats the case, then thats so obviously geared towards superman's strengths that it's sickening. And the writer who thought of it should be fired.

Honestly, I can't really explain it, but what you said is right. Supes has uber will power (He resisted sleeping with Wonder Woman for 1000 years). If he used that on SS, he would wipe the floor with him.

It's astral projection given a fancy word. i don't know if it can reality warp too but from what i've seen, it seemed more appopriately as illusions in the physical plane.

Originally posted by Femi32
Honestly, I can't really explain it, but what you said is right. Supes has uber will power (He resisted sleeping with Wonder Woman for 1000 years). If he used that on SS, he would wipe the floor with him.

WHIPPED!!

lol should i even say anything i mean since this is full potential supes shouldnt we use red sun supes since he can travel faster then the speed of thought is that faster then light?

Superman does have an indomitable will, but so does Surfer. I can see them stalemating in a battle of T-vo. Surfer is THE space jesus.

Superman lifted 40 quintillion tonnes, after taking a sun bath, need I say more?

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Superman lifted 40 quintillion tonnes, after taking a sun bath, need I say more?
This is in All-Star continuity, which I believe isn't mainstream, but rather an alternate reality much like the Ultimates in Marvel.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Superman lifted 40 quintillion tonnes, while sundipping, need I say more?

Silver Surfer searched the entire Earth, and I do mean the ENTIRE Earth, within the span of one sentence. His reactions are measured in nanoseconds. He is WAY the hell too fast to be hit by Superman, regardless of how strong he is. He's also stood up to planet shattering concussive force before, so it would take a very long time for Supes to put him down, even if he didn't fight back.

Now, on offense, he has cosmic awareness, meaning that he would be immediately aware of the exact wavelength of the radiation that hurts Superman. (knite) He also conveniently has control over all electromagnetic energy, meaning that he can scan Superman and kill him with a concentrated blast of kryptonite. It isn't even a fight. It takes a millisecond. Even Superman won't be able to react before he's dead, Surfer is at LEAST within the top 3 fastest comicbook heroes anywhere. All Flashes included.

(also, I'd like to see where you get 40,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons from... If you mean Warworld, I'll ask you to prove it... also, he isn't sundipped, so your point becomes ever more moot)

you do know that superman traveled a few million miles in five seconds when in red son?

Originally posted by Hit and Run
This is in All-Star continuity, which I believe isn't mainstream, but rather an alternate reality much like the Ultimates in Marvel. In the All star, he did 200 quintillion tons with one hand without straining, and maxed the machine out.

Originally posted by Juntai
In the All star, he did 200 quintillion tons with one hand without straining, and maxed the machine out.

****ING HELL!

Originally posted by Mider
you do know that superman traveled a few million miles in five seconds when in red son?




you do know silver surfer dwarfs light speed right??? in the infinity gauntlet he traveled the distance = to what light would travel in a year (light year, if you will) in the span of a few seconds....


so lets analyze. silver surfer traveled -5,849,625,600,000- miles in about the same time . i'm being very serious.

This is not about who is faster, this is about who wins in a fight.

Silver Surfer does have a faster travel speed just like Green lantern. He does not have as quick combat reflexes as Superman. When the Silver surfer can disarm a whole country in moments or catch hundreds of bullets coming towards him we'll talk.

And about not feeling Supes punches. This a guy who when he doesn't hold back shatters reality with his fists, who can go one on one with his Earth 2 counterpart, someone who casually picks up moons and beats people with them during battles.

As for energy absorbition. We have no way of knowing how long it will take for SS to absorb Supermans energy. Superman is capable of easily storing enough solar energy to atomise half a galaxy without too much effort. We know a valid way of killing Galactus is by overloading him with too much energy, too quickly. I imagine the same can be said for the surfer. Superman could always punch him a few thousand time while he's struggling to absorb his energy.

As for Krytonite beams Superman could dodge or vibrate through them.

Attention Superman fans. Supes cannot take SS. Face it. Between SS's advantages in Speed, Energy Projection, and his Cosmic Awareness, this fight does not last long at all.

Originally posted by KillAll
you do know silver surfer dwarfs light speed right??? in the infinity gauntlet he traveled the distance = to what light would travel in a year (light year, if you will) in the span of a few seconds....


so lets analyze. silver surfer traveled -5,849,625,600,000- miles in about the same time . i'm being very serious. Supes dwarfs lightspeed as well.

Why will the Silver Surfer win?

1) cosmic awareness - This enables Surfer to know what weakness Supeman may have and how his powers work
Putting Gladiator in his place
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/GalactusTheDevourer5-18a.jpg
Analizes the Hulk's energy
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_125_15.jpg
Can detect the presence or absence of individual's energy patterns
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_123_12.jpg
Can see the entire electro-magnetic spectrum
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-03.jpg

2) Matter manipulation - he can turn Superman's blood into kryptonite, his body into gold, or his costume into adamantium for a non-lethal
option
transmutes rocks into air
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_096_09.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_096_10.jpg
recreates Zenn-La
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1987_002_08.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1987_002_09.jpg
transforming armor
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1995_110_20.jpg

3) he can phase through matter -
through walls
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_123_10.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_43.jpg

4) could imprision Superman in his board -
imprisioning Genis
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_122_17.jpg

5) can tie other beings life energy to certain locations where if they leave they die
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/MCP175-p15.jpg

wow this is gonna be a close fight...................not really SS handles SM with relative ease.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Why will the Silver Surfer win?

1) cosmic awareness - This enables Surfer to know what weakness Supeman may have and how his powers work
Putting Gladiator in his place
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/GalactusTheDevourer5-18a.jpg
Analizes the Hulk's energy
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_125_15.jpg
Can detect the presence or absence of individual's energy patterns
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_123_12.jpg
Can see the entire electro-magnetic spectrum
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-03.jpg

2) Matter manipulation - he can turn Superman's blood into kryptonite, his body into gold, or his costume into adamantium for a non-lethal
option
transmutes rocks into air
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_096_09.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_096_10.jpg
recreates Zenn-La
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1987_002_08.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1987_002_09.jpg
transforming armor
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1995_110_20.jpg

3) he can phase through matter -
through walls
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_123_10.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_43.jpg

4) could imprision Superman in his board -
imprisioning Genis
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_122_17.jpg

5) can tie other beings life energy to certain locations where if they leave they die
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/MCP175-p15.jpg

Interestingly enough many of these would not work on Supes the only one which would really is the Kryptonite solution, he probably could drain Supes also however neither is instant. Matter manipulation through Supes shield probably would not work, when it does on Supes e.g. Mxy it's pseudo magical, something Surfer is not. Cosmic awareness probably won't work in DCU as it's a different Cosmos, one Surfer is not linked to, although it might. It has in non canon crossovers. In Supes favour he hits harder and faster than The Thing. "It's clobbering time baldy". Classic Ben Grimm

I don't see how the current Superman wins this. SS was the greatest of Galactus' heralds. He can do everything from generate blasts of incredible power to change the color of a flower. He wouldn't neccessarily even have to hit Superman with a blast (although that is probably how it would be written). He could just cause some sort of explosion like Torch's nova blast that Superman would not be able to dodge. He could engage SM in a cage of kryptonite. Or he could just absorb Supes' power into himself. The pre-Crisis Superman would give a decent fight but would probably still lose.

Originally posted by james1865
I don't see how the current Superman wins this. SS was the greatest of Galactus' heralds. He can do everything from generate blasts of incredible power to change the color of a flower. He wouldn't neccessarily even have to hit Superman with a blast (although that is probably how it would be written). He could just cause some sort of explosion like Torch's nova blast that Superman would not be able to dodge. He could engage SM in a cage of kryptonite. Or he could just absorb Supes' power into himself. The pre-Crisis Superman would give a decent fight but would probably still lose.

Please tell me more about this blast of Surfers and how powerful it is.
And what Torchs Nova flame would do to Supes I am interested.

All covered here



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29475&highlight=Silver+Surfer+v+Superman

and here

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=351930&highlight=Silver+Surfer+v+Superman

and here

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=389063&highlight=Silver+Surfer+v+Superman

and here

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370715&highlight=Silver

and about 3 pages more threads here

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=465964&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending



use the search function

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Interestingly enough many of these would not work on Supes the only one which would really is the Kryptonite solution, he probably could drain Supes also however neither is instant. Matter manipulation through Supes shield probably would not work, when it does on Supes e.g. Mxy it's pseudo magical, something Surfer is not. Cosmic awareness probably won't work in DCU as it's a different Cosmos, one Surfer is not linked to, although it might. It has in non canon crossovers. In Supes favour he hits harder and faster than The Thing. "It's clobbering time baldy". Classic Ben Grimm

How would Superman's bio-electric aura protect his body from Surfer's matter transmutation abilities? If all it is is a type of e-m based force field then I don't see how it could block the Surfer from transmuting the molecules of Superman's body or why the Surfer could not manipulate the force field as well. Also the board imprisonment, matter phasing, and altering of life energy should work on Superman as well.

Yea, maybe the Mods will merge all of these threads. Its almost as bad as the Dr. Strange vs Thanos mess.

Originally posted by TheKahn
How would Superman's bio-electric aura protect his body from Surfer's matter transmutation abilities? If all it is is a type of e-m based force field then I don't see how it could block the Surfer from transmuting the molecules of Superman's body or why the Surfer could not manipulate the force field as well. Also the board imprisonment, matter phasing, and altering of life energy should work on Superman as well.

Yea, maybe the Mods will merge all of these threads. Its almost as bad as the Dr. Strange vs Thanos mess.

Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do. I know it's not canon...... but Surfer lost his coating to the Omega beams.

Yup the threads need merging big time till another new member makes another.

Sounds to me like too much credit is in SS's favour at the moment. His speed is a great asset but believe it or not he gets hit by slower heroes... hmmm chew on it for a while

Originally posted by MattDay
Sounds to me like too much credit is in SS's favour at the moment. His speed is a great asset but believe it or not he gets hit by slower heroes... hmmm chew on it for a while

So does Superman

true, so i guess that's the way comics go

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do. I know it's not canon...... but Surfer lost his coating to the Omega beams.

Yup the threads need merging big time till another new member makes another.

Isn't that a good deal of speculation? The main theories I've heard as to why the Omega Beams didn't work on Superman are that he is important to the Source or that its just really bad writing. Incidental Darksied has reduced a Daxamite to dust before. So it would seem that matter manipulation can work on Superman-like characters and therefore Superman himself.

I still don't see how even a psionically controlled force field will block an attempt by the Surfer to transmute the elements that make up Superman's body (as the Daximites force field failed to protect him from a similar attack). I mean if Superman had some form of matter manipulation then I could see him perhaps "willing" his body not to change or something like that.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do.Still, Surfer can manipulate matter and energy to an impressive degree. He wouldn't have to take the time to depower Superman completely, only weaken him to the point where Surfer's attacks start doing major damage.

A HtH fight doesn't automatically guarantee Superman the win. Superman could dominate a physical fight, but it takes quite a bit more than a Classic Thing haymaker to put Surfer down these days. He's dominated physical fights with the Abomination and Lunatik in the past and has absorbed punishment from Thor, Morg, and an enraged Hulk. He could absorb a fair amount of punishment from Supes, long enough to weaken him in my opinion.

Surfer wins easily and then Space-Jesus forgives Supes for fighting him in the 1st place. "For you obviously knew not who you were f**king with"

Surfer

Gah SM fanboys................................SS wins and turns him into a statue for all the SM fanboys out there to fawn over

uh, no. ss wins most of the time imo but NOT because he turns him to stone, a feat ss has never done before. and don't give me that spidey/dd crap. he changed the air AROUND them into stone and they weren't strong enough to break out. FAR cry from chaging THEM to stone.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do. I know it's not canon...... but Surfer lost his coating to the Omega beams.

Has it ever been stated that Kal can control his bioelectric aura through will? If he can, it would certainly answer another question: If Superman is protected bioelectrically, then how come no one ever gets electrocuted when they touch him? However, again, I personally am not aware of any canon stating Superman has this ability.

And even if he does have this ability--to control his aura through "will"--what does that mean, exactly? What is "will?" Psionics? What does that mean, exactly? Psionics too has to involve some form of energy, energy which can interact with the physical world, implying that it too is--at least in part--physical. In which case, would it also be subject to the Surfer's influence, a master of energy manipulation?

My own theory on superpowers--that they all involve psiconsconsciousness--consciousness of quantum wavefunctions--would tend to put everyone on more/less equal ground. Superman does his thing through psiconscious manipulation of his atoms; Surfer can psiconsciously control "cosmic energy" (IMO, another wtf-does-that-mean, exactly?) to do his things. In which case, the question becomes: Who has a stronger level of psiconscious awareness?

How's that for complicating nonsense?

Originally posted by Mindship
Has it ever been stated that Kal can control his bioelectric aura through will? If he can, it would certainly answer another question: If Superman is protected bioelectrically, then how come no one ever gets electrocuted when they touch him? However, again, I personally am not aware of any canon stating Superman has this ability.

And even if he does have this ability--to control his aura through "will"--what does that mean, exactly? What is "will?" Psionics? What does that mean, exactly? Psionics too has to involve some form of energy, energy which can interact with the physical world, implying that it too is--at least in part--physical. In which case, would it also be subject to the Surfer's influence, a master of energy manipulation?

My own theory on superpowers--that they all involve psiconsconsciousness--consciousness of quantum wavefunctions--would tend to put everyone on more/less equal ground. Superman does his thing through psiconscious manipulation of his atoms; Surfer can psiconsciously control "cosmic energy" (IMO, another wtf-does-that-mean, exactly?) to do his things. In which case, the question becomes: Who has a stronger level of psiconscious awareness?

How's that for complicating nonsense?

Amazing, actually. Though it's a valid theory. The only problem is, Superman DOESN'T have control of his atoms. The field SHOULD be perfectly controllable by Surfer, as Superman's source of energy is also perfectly controllable by Surfer. Even if it's turned into something else, (other than pure solar energy) the only type of energy that Surfer really can't control is magic. Regardless of the actual composition of his field, Surfer should be able to take it from him, giving him one more way to win.

Also, in terms of blasting power, I'm looking for the scan of Nova blowing up a star and Surfer chastizing her for being careless. Nova is nowhere near as powerful as Surfer, and she blows up stars.

To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check four

If this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??

Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.

Originally posted by UniOmni
To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check four

If this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??

Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.

really good points stated. i think it's fairly obvious that silver surfer wins. not even because of speed, but due to his manipulation powers. he can simply drain the energy from superman. the end.

Originally posted by UniOmni
To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check four

If this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??

Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.

why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.

why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.

if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.

and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.

as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.

Originally posted by leonidas
why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.

why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.

Imo, the reason that he doesn't use matter manipulation on his opponents is that it would kill them. And as the Surfer cannot create (or recreate life as the case my be), so while he could return their bodies to their former state he couldn't bring them back to life.

And he does have some impressive healing feats (although this is often inconsistently portrayed)
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_27.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_28.jpg


Originally posted by leonidas

if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.

The problem is that all organic compounds are are a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, with the exception of carbides, carbonates, and carbon oxides. Organic and inorganic compounds are made up of atoms of the same elements. So if he could alter a Nitrogen atom in an inorganic substance then there isn't any reason he couldn't alter the same Nitrogen atom in an organic substance. Or if the Surfer can turn the iron in a napkin dispenser to gold then he can turn the iron in your blood to gold as well. And excreta...
All the atoms in your or Superman's body should be fair play.

Originally posted by leonidas

and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.

as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.

Yea, and imo they've been amping Superman towards his Pre-Crisis strength level for years.

Originally posted by leonidas
why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.

why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.

if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.

and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.

as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.

Some uses of power cosmic require more focus and energy than others. Straightforward applications (eg, cosmic bolt, shield) are simple and easy, the most natural thing for him to do. It would be like a person throwing a punch.

Other uses require more concentration. Generally speaking, manipulating matter on the atomic level is a far more complex affair. The Surfer took the mental time and energy to encase Spiderman and Daredevil in stone because he could afford to. They were no threat to him. It was, however, a nice opportunity to brush up on some atomic rearrangement skills.

Different types of power deployment require different levels of mental and cosmic energy.

marvel.com stated that the surfer could amp his strength to "incalculable levels"

you know what? to clear everything up about surfer's powers and what not. go here:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Silver_Surfer

Originally posted by TheKahn
Imo, the reason that he doesn't use matter manipulation on his opponents is that it would kill them. And as the Surfer cannot create (or recreate life as the case my be), so while he could return their bodies to their former state he couldn't bring them back to life.

And he does have some impressive healing feats (although this is often inconsistently portrayed)
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_27.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_28.jpg




The problem is that all organic compounds are are a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, with the exception of carbides, carbonates, and carbon oxides. Organic and inorganic compounds are made up of atoms of the same elements. So if he could alter a Nitrogen atom in an inorganic substance then there isn't any reason he couldn't alter the same Nitrogen atom in an organic substance. Or if the Surfer can turn the iron in a napkin dispenser to gold then he can turn the iron in your blood to gold as well. And excreta...
All the atoms in your or Superman's body should be fair play.



Yea, and imo they've been amping Superman towards his Pre-Crisis strength level for years.

how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.

the only way around it is to label all his books and most of his fights PIS. sorry, i haven't been prepared to do that in other threads with other characters and i won't do it now. throws the whole character into question and makes everything he does or doesn't do . . . wrong. 40 years of a character's history is all of a sudden rendered nonsensical and suspect because his books would be boring?

you and everyone else are free to believe what you like, and so am i. and personally i'm not buying what you're selling.

ss wins, but not because he can turn supes into stone.

Originally posted by Mindship
Some uses of power cosmic require more focus and energy than others. Straightforward applications (eg, cosmic bolt, shield) are simple and easy, the most natural thing for him to do. It would be like a person throwing a punch.

Other uses require more concentration. Generally speaking, manipulating matter on the atomic level is a far more complex affair. The Surfer took the mental time and energy to encase Spiderman and Daredevil in stone because he could afford to. They were no threat to him. It was, however, a nice opportunity to brush up on some atomic rearrangement skills.

Different types of power deployment require different levels of mental and cosmic energy.

that's fine and i accept that. but it also implies that certain aspects may wellbe beyond his measure of control. perhaps turning air to stone is within his command sprectrum, while turning flesh and blood is not. he HAS been shown to be unable to cure cancer in a book. clearly there is a limit. (wish i could recall off-hand what issue that was. it was posted somewhere in the umpteen millions of supes-ss threads).

and dman -- bios are pretty much worthless, regardless of where they are from. i don't even read them because they've been proven wrong on so many occasions there isn't a reason to. read the books -- that's where you learn the characters.

Originally posted by leonidas
how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.


im sorry, but wtf are you talking about? if he can turn supes to stone then hes dead.

Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
im sorry, but wtf are you talking about? if he can turn supes to stone then hes dead.

wtf are YOU talking about? have you READ the debate . . .?

Originally posted by leonidas
how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.

Do you want the cheap answer? He can recreate their bodies but not their souls. Once he transmutes their bodies he kills them and simply recreating their bodies isn't enough to bring him back to life. He would either have to retrieve their soul (as we have seen there is an afterlife in Marvel) or create a new one for them to truly bring them back to life. Neither of which he can do so using matter transmutation against his enemies really wouldn't be a non-lethal option.


Originally posted by leonidas

the only way around it is to label all his books and most of his fights PIS. sorry, i haven't been prepared to do that in other threads with other characters and i won't do it now. throws the whole character into question and makes everything he does or doesn't do . . . wrong. 40 years of a character's history is all of a sudden rendered nonsensical and suspect because his books would be boring?

you and everyone else are free to believe what you like, and so am i. and personally i'm not buying what you're selling.

ss wins, but not because he can turn supes into stone.

It's ok. That's about all I'd expect from member of the JLAKMC....

If they fight in space Superman will have a better chance to last a little longer. Simply because he can draw power from other sources other than a yellow star. I just don't see Norrin draining power from Supes cause he can absorb it back just as fast. So that would be a pointless tactic for Norrin.

Red-Sunlight will not work in space as he can draw power from the stars or the Sun to force the red radiation out.

K-nite radiation will be a b!tch for Supes in this one and that will be Norrins way of victory. He will not beat him via power cosmic blasts or punches etc.

Originally posted by vpokdekjyafmidp
marvel.com stated that the surfer could amp his strength to "incalculable levels"

you know what? to clear everything up about surfer's powers and what not. go here:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Silver_Surfer
Incalculable is too vague a term. Superman would gave the same strength rating if he was in Marvel. I don't get why this is hard to accept. Norrin wins but hand to hand with Clark isn't a good idea for anyone under Thanos level.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Do you want the cheap answer? He can recreate their bodies but not their souls. Once he transmutes their bodies he kills them and simply recreating their bodies isn't enough to bring him back to life. He would either have to retrieve their soul (as we have seen there is an afterlife in Marvel) or create a new one for them to truly bring them back to life. Neither of which he can do so using matter transmutation against his enemies really wouldn't be a non-lethal option.


yeah, thats pretty much wat i was thinking/trying to say.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Do you want the cheap answer? He can recreate their bodies but not their souls. Once he transmutes their bodies he kills them and simply recreating their bodies isn't enough to bring him back to life. He would either have to retrieve their soul (as we have seen there is an afterlife in Marvel) or create a new one for them to truly bring them back to life. Neither of which he can do so using matter transmutation against his enemies really wouldn't be a non-lethal option.




It's ok. That's about all I'd expect from member of the JLAKMC....

souls? i friggin KNEW you were gonna say that. to which i could say a soul is simply energy of a different type, so why NOT retrieve or recreate it? but in any event, it doesn't change anything -- he couldn't cure cancer, he never cured aids. he didn't/hasn't done a LOT, an infinity, of things he might have done with the level of control you're talking about. as i said, maybe it's a self-imposed limit but he seems unable to deal with organic matter anywhere near as well as he does with inorganic or energy. again, i think mindship is mostly right -- perhaps his level of control simply isn't high enough.

and the jla never resort to cheap answers or PIS.

bastard.

Leonidas. You say you have a hard time accepting that most if not all of SS's comics are pis defined?? You who have a picture in your avi with Flash in it?? I'd think you'd accept that better than most. You seem to favor DC a bit. PIS reigns in Superman and Flash and GL comics. This is no surprise. And for SS to heal all the worlds diseases would lessen the human condition. And that always makes for the best stories.
And Surfer can amp his strength to incalculable levels. He once absorbed a massive amount of energy from a star, and was shown to be massively bulked up. HtH surfer would stand a good chance against Superman, but that would contradict his pacifist nature.
And why would Superman not feel blasts of PC?? I admit he probably would shrug off the weaker blasts, but why would he not be affected by concentrated blasts?
Like i said. Surfer acting in character wouldn't go to supermans arena, but if he were a brutal being by nature, he could house Superman in hth.
Strength amplification with the energy of the universe itself, an infinite source, and not to mention his myriad of other powers. Pacifism saves Superman from a brutal beating.

SS donkey punchs Superman thats all she wrote

Originally posted by soleran30
SS donkey punchs Superman thats all she wrote
He doesn't have a penis.

Superman doesn't have a johnson? I said SS donkey punchs Superman.................boy Lois must get real lonely

Originally posted by leonidas
that's fine and i accept that. but it also implies that certain aspects may wellbe beyond his measure of control. perhaps turning air to stone is within his command sprectrum, while turning flesh and blood is not. he HAS been shown to be unable to cure cancer in a book. clearly there is a limit. (wish i could recall off-hand what issue that was. it was posted somewhere in the umpteen millions of supes-ss threads).

It's kinda like on Star Trek: the personnel transporters are far more sophisticated devices than the cargo transporters, which are more sophisticated than phasers. Personnel transporters require the most computational power because they are handling living matter. And while either kind of transporter could be used as a weapon, when Koik wants to destroy something, he points a phaser.

The Surfer is my main man, but he has to have limits, otherwise it just gets ridiculous (especially when he falls whenever the board is knocked out from under him). Supes is my second fave, and I can see him winning under several circumstances. But overall, more times than not, Surfer wins. He may not be omnipotent, but he Is that powerful.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's kinda like on Star Trek: the personnel transporters are far more sophisticated devices than the cargo transporters, which are more sophisticated than phasers. Personnel transporters require the most computational power because they are handling living matter. And while either kind of transporter could be used as a weapon, when Koik wants to destroy something, he points a phaser.

The Surfer is my main man, but he has to have limits, otherwise it just gets ridiculous (especially when he falls whenever the board is knocked out from under him). Supes is my second fave, and I can see him winning under several circumstances. But overall, more times than not, Surfer wins. He may not be omnipotent, but he Is that powerful.

Could someone explain then how Thanos owns this guy hardcore?
Seriously? Thanos has nowhere near the same matter manipulation, speed, energy manipulation, and diversity that people claim SS brings to battle.

Mindship, I quoted you because I tend to enjoy reading your theories on these types of things.

Truthfully, i don't know why Thanos beats him. Surfer can potentially match Thanos in strength, but Thanos was made to beat Surfer. He is Surfers villain. I don't know why, other than Thanos has an ungodly damage soak, and with control over his molecules, he can outlast Surfer, but with Surfers ability to amp his durability as well.......I really don't know Avy.
I want to consider it jobbing honestly. Why DOES Thanos beat Surfer, that the pc can't possibly remedy??

Well Thanos has done things with his powers to bad I cannot recall the comic where he heals someone................generally his powerset isn't as diverse as SS but he just has more of it.

Several things....

Surfer has actually made himself human before. Flesh, blood, the whole deal. (it was in the same issue as the napkin dispenser to gold thing, I do believe) So organic matter shouldn't be a problem, but I'd call it either constant PIS, ( ) or Mindship's whole Star Trek analogy- when he's fighting guys who can match him in power, he doesn't have the time to concentrate on rearranging subatomic particles.

And Thanos is either much tougher than even most people give him credit for, or Surfer jobs simply because it's Thanos. For his own benefit, Thanos is immune to pretty much all of Surfer's offensive techniques. He's durable enough to take the blasts, has control over his own body enough that matter manipulation won't work, and has beaten enough godly speedsters that I'm beginning to think that he himself is really very fast, but the other guys are just marginally faster. (kind of a Supes/Flash relationship) Honestly, I don't think I've seen speed work against him until someone posted scans of his brother smacking him around very recently.

Anyhoo, in a nutshell, Thanos is immune to everything Surfer can do, where his energy output far outshadow's Surfer's. Iron Man has many more modes of attack than Superman, but nothing he has would actually work, where Supes could simply smash his face in for a quick win. The gap in power is just big enough that all of SS's abilities are useless.

Oh, and I found Nova 'sploding a star... Let's have a big HELL YES for the weakest herald of the bunch...
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2217/sunexplode8kx.th.jpghttp://img488.imageshack.us/img488/4100/sunexplode27ob.th.jpg

Originally posted by soleran30
Superman doesn't have a johnson? I said SS donkey punchs Superman.................boy Lois must get real lonely
Surfer would need a penis for such an act since he's the one doing all the work. Superman is just...you know what, never mind...

Originally posted by Dizzle
Oh, and I found Nova 'sploding a star... Let's have a big HELL YES for the weakest herald of the bunch...
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2217/sunexplode8kx.th.jpghttp://img488.imageshack.us/img488/4100/sunexplode27ob.th.jpg
Isn't Nova basically a walking star herself?

Originally posted by Validus
Isn't Nova basically a walking star herself?

Kinda. It still doesn't sit well with me that Surfer's blasts are basically dismissed, when a weaker herald can 'splode a sun and get chastized for being careless. One wouldn't do it, but you bet your ass that Surfer COULD blast Superman into submission if he really needed to.

I've seen some interesting arguments for transmutation. I doubt direct transmutation would work on current Supes. Magical transmutation has been tried (being that magic should affect Supes a lot more than pc will) and that failed.

A physical confrontation would have SS getting beaten pretty bad.

Red Sunlight can help, but Supes has been thrown into a red sun before and has kept going.

Kryptonite is not the weakness it used to be, although Ss can use it to soften him up quite a bit .

Supes can negate SS cosmic awareness with Torquasm Vo (which from what I've seen, is MUCH cheaper than PC.)

Speedwise, SS is far faster from point A to point B, but then again, Lobo flies at similar speeds on his hog in space. Same thing with the Eradicator who literally crossed the universe in a few panels. Cyborg does the same all the time. There aren't really any showing of SS fighting at those kind of speeds.

SS best bet is using his energy manipulation to keep Supes off balance.

It's by no means a clear cut victory for anyone.

I think these are some scans that Dizzle mentioned of SS as a human
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_139p06.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_129_16.jpg

But I can accepts that matter transmutation on a living being might take a little more focus and time for him to do.


But as to whether a physical confrontation would grantee a Superman victory, I would have to disagree. Putting aside the fact that the Surfer has knocked out an Elder of the Universe with his energy blasts, imprisoned Genis in his board, and can tie beings to certain locations so that they die if they leave, I still think the Surfer could hold his own if not win outright.

Now Superman would have the advantage as he does not depend on energy attacks to the same extent as the Surfer. However I just don't know if Superman could actually put him down and here is why.

In a fight with Krosakis, who is an energy vampire, the Surfer was able to not only stablemate him but actually make him bleed. Now why do I find this impressive? Well, before the fight Krosakis had absorbed the power of Gladiator (a pre-crisis Superman knock-off) and the Uni-Power. Now we know that Gladiator in his own right is a formidable fighter but now amplify all of his abilities (strength, durability, speed, ect) by 50 and you get the idea of the level he was at. The Surfer had to overload him with power in the end, but even lasting a few minutes against him, not to mention actually hurting him, is very impressive to me and shows Surfer's strength and durability.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-06.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-07.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-08.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-10.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-11.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-12.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-13.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-14.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-15.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-16.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-17.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CaptainUniverseSS1-18.jpg



Oh, and to why Thanos can own the Surfer. In his fight with Odin, Odin commented that Thanos drew his power from a near limitless source in a similar to the one he drew from only darker. So this could mean that Thanos' powers are in some way mystical in nature which could explain why the Surfer has such a difficult time with him.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I've seen some interesting arguments for transmutation. I doubt direct transmutation would work on current Supes. Magical transmutation has been tried (being that magic should affect Supes a lot more than pc will) and that failed.

There's no logical reason why, but Supes has indeed resisted internal tampering quite a few times.



Good thing Surfer never brawls with someone unless he's being retarded, eh? And the "curbstomp" that would come from a slugfest might not be so clearly in Supes's corner, given SS's reaction feats, durability, and strength amping abilities. I wouldn't give him a majority, but it wouldn't be over as quick as many seem to think.



Why in hell would he use red sunlight when kryptonite works so much better?



Not as much of a weakness, but still quite a weakness. It's the difference between being shot in the chest with a cannon and being shot in the chest with a rifle. And since Surfer can make the blast as potent as he wants, make that 5 rifles.



How would that work? Especially when Surfer is, at the VERY least, an extremely competent telepath himself...



Except for the few reaction feats to rival or surpass Flash's best stuff. I have yet to see Flash do something that is clearly out of Surfer's league. (I'd call them even, as I haven't really seen anything for the vice versa either) Again, Surfer simply doesn't fight h2h unless he's being a moron, so you can't expect someone to produce scans of him pulling some DBZ crap and fighting some godly lightspeed martial artist when that would be horribly out of character. Has SUPES ever fought someone hand to hand going that fast?



Could just be personal preference, but I'd typically stick to the microsecond scan and kryptonite blast combination. Too fast for a counter, going by all of Superman's (relatively) mediocre reaction feats.



If by that you mean "Surfer takes 10/10 very easily when not holding back," then yes, I completely agree.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Oh, and to why Thanos can own the Surfer. In his fight with Odin, Odin commented that Thanos drew his power from a near limitless source in a similar to the one he drew from only darker. So this could mean that Thanos' powers are in some way mystical in nature which could explain why the Surfer has such a difficult time with him.

I've seen when Odin says that to him, but technically, isn't most power essentially limitless? Quasar's power comes from an unlimited source, Flash's power comes from an unlimited source. Hulk draws from an unlimited source...etc. I believe Uni may be right and it's just a simple case of jobbing.

Originally posted by Dizzle
There's no logical reason why, but Supes has indeed resisted internal tampering quite a few times.

I can't explain it either, but it's apparently somehow in his powerset.


Originally posted by Dizzle
Good thing Surfer never brawls with someone unless he's being retarded, eh? And the "curbstomp" that would come from a slugfest might not be so clearly in Supes's corner, given SS's reaction feats, durability, and strength amping abilities. I wouldn't give him a majority, but it wouldn't be over as quick as many seem to think.

Kind of hard to "amp up" in the middle of a beatdown, if Thanos can do it with fists, so can Supes...they guy who KO's cosmic beings with fists.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Why in hell would he use red sunlight when kryptonite works so much better?

I simply stated 2 possible energy choices. Red Sunlight is the easier of the 2 to create and use since it's FAR more common.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Not as much of a weakness, but still quite a weakness. It's the difference between being shot in the chest with a cannon and being shot in the chest with a rifle. And since Surfer can make the blast as potent as he wants, make that 5 rifles.

Still a weakness, but if using both characters at potential (instead of just SS) then he'd have a hell of a hard time knowing how to create kryptonite, it's not native to his universe, and he sure ain't getting the formula out of Superman's head...this isn't gladiator.

Originally posted by Dizzle
How would that work? Especially when Surfer is, at the VERY least, an extremely competent telepath himself...

When Supes "sucks" someone in, he has access to THEIR powerset as well. Telepathy won't work, as someone like Dominus who is scales above Surfer found out. T-Vo is bordenline reality control. Think trapping someone is a board is impressive? Try recreating the phantom zone and trapping a being in that just using mental powers.


Originally posted by Dizzle
Except for the few reaction feats to rival or surpass Flash's best stuff. I have yet to see Flash do something that is clearly out of Surfer's league. (I'd call them even, as I haven't really seen anything for the vice versa either) Again, Surfer simply doesn't fight h2h unless he's being a moron, so you can't expect someone to produce scans of him pulling some DBZ crap and fighting some godly lightspeed martial artist when that would be horribly out of character. Has SUPES ever fought someone hand to hand going that fast?

Yep. WW, at least 8x the speed of light. People make a case all the time for Thanos and Thor fighting speedsters, well, Supes fights them as well. The greatest speed feats that I've seen are flash outrunning death, and Eradicator crossing from the EXPANDING edge of the universe to earth in a few panels. Supes has fought both very well.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Could just be personal preference, but I'd typically stick to the microsecond scan and kryptonite blast combination. Too fast for a counter, going by all of Superman's (relatively) mediocre reaction feats.

Surfer has had plenty of those moments as well. Can't use it for one character and ignore it for the next. Vibrate invisible, shoot out a few illusion images, and KO SS as he tries to locate the real Supes.

Originally posted by Dizzle
If by that you mean "Surfer takes 10/10 very easily when not holding back," then yes, I completely agree.

If you are trying to be sarcastic, it doesn't suit you. Time shattering punches, and cosmic being trapping T-VO are more than enough to handle SS as well. 10/10 is a lucid dream, though SS does get his share of victories.

10/10? yea that is a joke, taken that these guys pound for pound, move for move, will be taking eachother across the universe fighting like mad men, probably ending in a stalemate.

Originally posted by Redatom65
Who wins this one Superman or The Surfer no prep for either

Gladiator = Superman
Silver Surfer > Gladiator
Silver Surfer > Superman

yea i s'pose, but in a confrontation of gladiator and superman, superman was voted most likely to win. So again could he turn one over Silver Surfer. and i think he'll stalemate him.

Originally posted by MattDay
yea i s'pose, but in a confrontation of gladiator and superman, superman was voted most likely to win. So again could he turn one over Silver Surfer. and i think he'll stalemate him.

Voting which superhero would win is like voting for president, usually the more popular guy wins.

that's one angle, but i think of it as something more than that

I don't understand. What is stopping Norrin from simply draining the solar energy from Superman?

There are so many ways he can win-trapping him inside his surf board, trapping him inside an energy construct, sending him into another dimension..but draining his solar energy is most convenient. He could also give him a K-Nite blast; Radioactive man did after all. But moreover, what's stopping him from simply draining his energy?

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
I don't understand. What is stopping Norrin from simply draining the solar energy from Superman?

There are so many ways he can win-trapping him inside his surf board, trapping him inside an energy construct, sending him into another dimension..but draining his solar energy is most convenient. He could also give him a K-Nite blast; Radioactive man did after all. But moreover, what's stopping him from simply draining his energy?

I'll tell you whats stoppin him....its all the supes fanboy

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Could someone explain then how Thanos owns this guy hardcore?
Seriously? Thanos has nowhere near the same matter manipulation, speed, energy manipulation, and diversity that people claim SS brings to battle.

Mindship, I quoted you because I tend to enjoy reading your theories on these types of things.

thanks

Originally posted by UniOmni
Leonidas. You say you have a hard time accepting that most if not all of SS's comics are pis defined?? You who have a picture in your avi with Flash in it?? I'd think you'd accept that better than most. You seem to favor DC a bit. PIS reigns in Superman and Flash and GL comics. This is no surprise. And for SS to heal all the worlds diseases would lessen the human condition. And that always makes for the best stories.
And Surfer can amp his strength to incalculable levels. He once absorbed a massive amount of energy from a star, and was shown to be massively bulked up. HtH surfer would stand a good chance against Superman, but that would contradict his pacifist nature.
And why would Superman not feel blasts of PC?? I admit he probably would shrug off the weaker blasts, but why would he not be affected by concentrated blasts?
Like i said. Surfer acting in character wouldn't go to supermans arena, but if he were a brutal being by nature, he could house Superman in hth.
Strength amplification with the energy of the universe itself, an infinite source, and not to mention his myriad of other powers. Pacifism saves Superman from a brutal beating.

heh. that's why i don't buy flash books and never have. i DO love the jla though . . .

blasts would hurt, but supes has handled that before. i still say supes would win h2h -- he's simply more competent at it, if nothing else.

as far as thanos -- it does seem like jobbing. thanos is apparently just better at everything than ss is. one must deduce that anything ss can do thanos can do better or at a higher level. clearly ss can't amp 'incalculably'. he can't even reach thanos' level. 'infinite, incalculable ' powers are usually anything BUT. . . .

there ARE limits to ss's powers, as mindship seems to be following. that's what so many people don't seem to get. where the limits are is open to debate -- clearly, but to best determine them we need to use on-panel feats. some of what people are suggesting he simply has never done.

as far as the supes=glads<ss. in a fight between ss and glads, (where ss didn't use glads weakness) ss says he and glads are equal and could battle forever.

as far as t-vo -- i just don't know enough about it to say supes could wipe out ss with it. it is certainly possible he could do so, but i've not seen enough of it to really decide one way or the other.

supes COULD win but i see ss taking the majority based on his versatility. unless t-vo can be used effectively. avy might know that better than anyone.

If someone has the picture where Flash saves people out of a city in order to save them from a nuclear bomb, he might show you Flash's real speed. I calculated the speed he uses in it and the average was some 1,5 MILLION times the speed of light. It was like 500 000 times to the city, 500 000 times back from the city times the distance, which was some 37 miles (Can't recall exactly) in 0,0001 seconds.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
I don't understand. What is stopping Norrin from simply draining the solar energy from Superman?
Supes sustains 4 monthly titles. He's unstoppable!!

The problem with this is that DC does not do a good job with sustaining Superman's foil, it's kind of why they have a hard time to create a reoccuring villain. Thanos is not so much a jobber as he is just a foil to SS. He is that individual who will force SS to beat him in really unorthodox ways, if he does beat him. On the other hand with DC, they create a character or villain that is impossibly strong, or has some ungodly insurmountable advantage and then justify Superman's victory by saying , oh those other times he was just holding back. Or they create a plot device to build from. It pretty much always comes down to, "Duperman is teh greatist hero everrrr!! Because DC never gives Superman any upper limits, and if they do they break them just for the sheer sake of the plot. it's why people don't like Superman. he's too fantastic, and the best hero's are the ones with a sense of realism, a flaw, something that makes them relatable, and not some dude who everytime he is is faced with an impossible challenge, he was just holding back. What if that one time he reaches down deep for that hidden strength to find nothing there, what then? This is why SS wins because he's not one dimensional , and Supes is.

Silver surfer he is way too much for superman

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
I don't understand. What is stopping Norrin from simply draining the solar energy from Superman?

There are so many ways he can win-trapping him inside his surf board, trapping him inside an energy construct, sending him into another dimension..but draining his solar energy is most convenient. He could also give him a K-Nite blast; Radioactive man did after all. But moreover, what's stopping him from simply draining his energy?

I'm waiting....

Originally posted by Dynamic One
The problem with this is that DC does not do a good job with sustaining Superman's foil, it's kind of why they have a hard time to create a reoccuring villain. Thanos is not so much a jobber as he is just a foil to SS. He is that individual who will force SS to beat him in really unorthodox ways, if he does beat him. On the other hand with DC, they create a character or villain that is impossibly strong, or has some ungodly insurmountable advantage and then justify Superman's victory by saying , oh those other times he was just holding back. Or they create a plot device to build from. It pretty much always comes down to, "Duperman is teh greatist hero everrrr!! Because DC never gives Superman any upper limits, and if they do they break them just for the sheer sake of the plot. it's why people don't like Superman. he's too fantastic, and the best hero's are the ones with a sense of realism, a flaw, something that makes them relatable, and not some dude who everytime he is is faced with an impossible challenge, he was just holding back. What if that one time he reaches down deep for that hidden strength to find nothing there, what then? This is why SS wins because he's not one dimensional , and Supes is. Daaaaaaaaaaaaayum! That's a good post.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
I'm waiting....

draining his solar power has ben tried umpteen times and has never really worked. supes stores months worth of power and the sun replenishes him very quickly. he may be able to weaken him with it though then use other powers to finish him. it's not likely he could just drain him. if he started, supes could take the fight to space where he absorbs even faster.

trapping in the board was the stupidest thing i've ever seen the ss do . . .

banish to another dimension? might work. bfr is an option, but not a very could win. and there are people who will tell you that he can punch through dimensions anyway . . .

it would be a combination of speed and power that would get him wins, but it wouldn't be easy or fast imo. every single thing ss can do to supes HAS been done to him many times in the past. the ss brings nothing really new to the table, but his versatility, speed and durability are enough to get the job done most of the time. i don't see it as impossible for supes to win though. ss would have to fight out of character and go for killing tactics to win.

So everything Thanos can do, Superman can do? I doubt it. His raw strength feats are relatively nonexistant, but so are any examples, or even hints at, an upper limit. And even though I personally can't explain it, Surfer has never, ever used real speed against Thanos. Hell, he's never done anything very impressive when fighting Thanos. It's basically assumed that he's just "supposed" to lose. I'd say Dynamic One explained the real reasons behind it extremely well.



Except for the whole cosmic awareness thing... He wouldn't know to use either without it, so it stands to reason that he'd go for the much more effective one.



Just SS? Hell, that's nowhere near his potential. Arguing that Supes could even begin to resist a superconcentrated blast of the one thing that, until very recently, would instantly strip him of power and kill him within minutes is putting him way ABOVE his level of power. He's resisted it before, but in nowhere near the amounts that Surfer can put in a blast, and not nearly well enough to justify anything but him being vaporized. He will know the wavelength because of cosmic awareness. He doesn't know anything about the radiation that harms Gladiator either, but he himself stated that he could produce it without hesitation. It may not BE Gladiator, but it's pretty much the same deal. There's absolutely no reason why cosmic awareness wouldn't work.



Several things. A) How does this stop cosmic awareness? I thought you were suggesting that Supes would use his mental powers to somehow block it. B) Surfer doesn't typically use telepathy offensively... And wouldn't Supes have done all of that using Dominus's own powers anyway? C) How long does that take?



Was Flash using his speed to potential when fighting Supes? Using his power well, Wally would curbstomp Superman into oblivion. Did Eradicator ever use his ungodly speed to fight Superman? Does Eradicator actually have any reaction time speed feats that suggest he could even begin to pull off a speedblitz? As I recall, you don't accept people using fights against speedsters that don't use their speed as a valid argument for Thanos or Thor, so why make an exception when it's Superman? Surfer's feats simply outclass his, in both reactions and traveling speed. He'll be dead before he can react, which is where even the T-Vo plan falls short.



You misunderstand me. I meant that Superman's best speed and reaction feats are relatively mediocre, when compared to the likes of Silver Surfer and Flash. Vibrating invisible and illusion images don't work on people who move and think much, much faster.



Because we're pulling out every single one of Superman's spontaneously created powers, I WILL argue Surfer to his absolute maximum potential. Which definitely involves Supes dying before he has a chance to pull out either of those options, because he won't have any time to THINK before he was atomized by a star destroying blast that's pumped up with superconcentrated kryptonite radiation.

And hell, if we want to get technical, Surfer can step outside of time as soon as the battle starts and KO Supes at his leisure. Or he can simply vibrate Flash style, as Flash HAS vibrated through Superman before. Punches don't do much when they don't hit anything.

I'd still also like a good explanation as to how Torquasm Vo works. If it works through willpower or mental strength... Well, Surfer resisted the mind gem. If it really bends reality, then he can always fall back on the speedblitz option, but quite frankly, it seems to be a very JLAKMC kind of thing to do.

Originally posted by leonidas
draining his solar power has ben tried umpteen times and has never really worked. supes stores months worth of power and the sun replenishes him very quickly. he may be able to weaken him with it though then use other powers to finish him. it's not likely he could just drain him. if he started, supes could take the fight to space where he absorbs even faster.

Shouldn't Surfer be able to simply mess with whatever aura protects Superman though? It's energy, and unless Superman was just messing with us the whole time, it isn't magic. Taking that away would do a hell of a lot.



I'm going to agree. Superman gets new random uber destructive powers because he always "holds back" just a little less every time, Surfer constantly reveals new abilities that do nothing but help the whole pacifist thing along.



No, that's Superboy Prime...



The thing is, when all of the elements get smashed into one, it IS something different. Flash never attacked Superman with a kryptonite laser and nearly indestructible battle armor. If he ever did, I really don't see Supes coming out with too many victories. And I REALLY don't see the fight lasting too long.

Surfer has star-destroying blasts? Never seen it from him. That scan with Nova shows something happening on the surface of the sun. There wasn't any concussive star destroying blasts from Nova at all.

Originally posted by Femi32
Surfer has star-destroying blasts? Never seen it from him. That scan with Nova shows something happening on the surface of the sun. There wasn't any concussive star destroying blasts from Nova at all.

Thats because in the picture it said she was making the sun burn itself out completely different then blowing the sun up however still a large feat.

LOL Superman and his not holding back blah blah blah he has been slowly letting go for 60 years lol.

Originally posted by Femi32
Surfer has star-destroying blasts? Never seen it from him. That scan with Nova shows something happening on the surface of the sun. There wasn't any concussive star destroying blasts from Nova at all.

Huh? Nova flew into the sun, and proceeded to make it explode... She didn't blast it from afar, but it WAS her that destroyed it. Surfer has always been much more powerful than Nova, so he should have the ability to do the same.

EDIT: My bad, soleran just said the exact same thing...

Originally posted by Dizzle
So everything Thanos can do, Superman can do? I doubt it. His raw strength feats are relatively nonexistant, but so are any examples, or even hints at, an upper limit. And even though I personally can't explain it, Surfer has never, ever used real speed against Thanos. Hell, he's never done anything very impressive when fighting Thanos. It's basically assumed that he's just "supposed" to lose. I'd say Dynamic One explained the real reasons behind it extremely well.

Agreed, but if it's a "jobber" aura that keeps Thanos owning him, then Supes is nearly #1 in that aspect. Not everything Thanos can do, Supes can do, and vice versa...so you may have misunderstood what I meant by that. Seriously, Thanos just stood there and beat Surfer senseless with VERY FEW hits and without breaking a sweat. In that sense, I definitely believe Supes can do the same.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Except for the whole cosmic awareness thing... He wouldn't know to use either without it, so it stands to reason that he'd go for the much more effective one.

Dominus has cosmic awareness, Darkseid has it, GL's have it, Eradicator has MULTIVERSAL cosmic awareness. Surfer comes from a different universe, as has been made canon, if they fight on neutral ground, how will SS know the frequency? Supes can easily fool him using Torquasm VO.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Just SS? Hell, that's nowhere near his potential. Arguing that Supes could even begin to resist a superconcentrated blast of the one thing that, until very recently, would instantly strip him of power and kill him within minutes is putting him way ABOVE his level of power. He's resisted it before, but in nowhere near the amounts that Surfer can put in a blast, and not nearly well enough to justify anything but him being vaporized. He will know the wavelength because of cosmic awareness. He doesn't know anything about the radiation that harms Gladiator either, but he himself stated that he could produce it without hesitation. It may not BE Gladiator, but it's pretty much the same deal. There's absolutely no reason why cosmic awareness wouldn't work.

It's the same as saying SS can easily resist the punches of a being that punches other beings in his strengh class across Solar Systems when low class 100 characters have hurt him. Now about Glads, they (SS) are from the same universe, and Glads has no way to offset or trick SS cosmic awareness..and seriously, Cosmic awareness is not all it's cracked up to be in fights, If so...Doom wouldnt have so easily stolen his power. It's a lot more handy for "imbalances" in the universe type of thing.


Originally posted by Dizzle
Several things. A) How does this stop cosmic awareness? I thought you were suggesting that Supes would use his mental powers to somehow block it. B) Surfer doesn't typically use telepathy offensively... And wouldn't Supes have done all of that using Dominus's own powers anyway? C) How long does that take?

Easy, It creates an environment with Supes controls. He'd be using the PC to even figure out what the hell was going on. Even if SS tried to use telepathy offensively, it's like a "firewall" for the stuff. Plus, it would allow Supes some access to SS power as well, though not any kind of complete control of it of course. Thanos has used mind tricks on SS quite effectively, and I'd consider Thanos a more defensive TP than an offensive one.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Was Flash using his speed to potential when fighting Supes? Using his power well, Wally would curbstomp Superman into oblivion. Did Eradicator ever use his ungodly speed to fight Superman? Does Eradicator actually have any reaction time speed feats that suggest he could even begin to pull off a speedblitz? As I recall, you don't accept people using fights against speedsters that don't use their speed as a valid argument for Thanos or Thor, so why make an exception when it's Superman? Surfer's feats simply outclass his, in both reactions and traveling speed. He'll be dead before he can react, which is where even the T-Vo plan falls short.

In this sense, does SS have any of the above? When has he used any of it in battle? I agree with the traveling speed, but Lobo travels at similar speeds across space navigating on his hog. It doesn't mean he fights that quickly.



Originally posted by Dizzle
You misunderstand me. I meant that Superman's best speed and reaction feats are relatively mediocre, when compared to the likes of Silver Surfer and Flash. Vibrating invisible and illusion images don't work on people who move and think much, much faster.

They worked fine on Eradicator and Dominus. I did make a mistake though. Supes wouldn't have to vibrate invisible, he can TVO as well. Traveling speed does not equal fighting speed.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Because we're pulling out every single one of Superman's spontaneously created powers, I WILL argue Surfer to his absolute maximum potential. Which definitely involves Supes dying before he has a chance to pull out either of those options, because he won't have any time to THINK before he was atomized by a star destroying blast that's pumped up with superconcentrated kryptonite radiation.
And hell, if we want to get technical, Surfer can step outside of time as soon as the battle starts and KO Supes at his leisure. Or he can simply vibrate Flash style, as Flash HAS vibrated through Superman before. Punches don't do much when they don't hit anything.

I have no problem with you using SS maximum potential at all. I just hope you accept the same from Superman when used in the same way. SS doesn't just step out of time, since we are there, then a time/space shattering punch should take care of that rather easily. Supes can vibrate through SS as well and we know internally, the guy is vulnerable, especially if running low on PC.


Originally posted by Dizzle
I'd still also like a good explanation as to how Torquasm Vo works. If it works through willpower or mental strength... Well, Surfer resisted the mind gem. If it really bends reality, then he can always fall back on the speedblitz option, but quite frankly, it seems to be a very JLAKMC kind of thing to do.

Like I said earlier, Thanos owned SS pretty easily using mental powers right before the IG happened. Superman projecting the billions of beings dying due to SS being a herald WILL down the guy pretty quick.

Check the Supes respect forum, I've put up some stuff on it before. Supes using it near instantly, morphing reality, blocking telepathy..etc. While admittedly cool in some ways, it's also as stupid as the "power cosmic" on the plot device scale. Yep. I myself have mixed feelings on it.

If you have any more specific questions about Tvo, shoot me a pm, and I'll try to get you info/scans on it. I know it's tough to get reliable info on the web as it's one of Supermans least written about abilities.

Just to add some points to what is turning out to be a very civil and informative debate ( thanks to Avalonofthewind, Dizzle, and others):


With the use of the power cosmic in question in DC or a neutral universe, perhaps the Surfer can analyze Superman's body/power to see how it works. Here he does that to the Hulk and it actually seems like he is studding the Hulk instead of just have automatic knowledge from the power cosmic.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_125_15.jpg

Also he can see the entire EM spectrum so he might be able to see what energy is in Superman's body.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-03.jpg

Causes Jack of Hearts pain fairly easily suggesting that the Surfer might be able to have a degree of control over beings with a great deal of internal energy
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Cosmic_Powers_Unlimited_03_21.jpg

And if he's really in trouble he could always take a breather in the Microverse
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/GalactusTheDevourer2-19a.jpg

And if you consider the forces inside the heart of a sun, then the Surfer flying though it is pretty impressive, imo.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_134p05.jpg

Honestly as both Superman and Surfer have flown through or near black holes they should be practically invulnerable.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_06.jpg

Information is power Kahn. I do want to make it as informative as possilbe, I'm not interested in a flamefest. Nice stuff on SS. I'll put up some interesting Supes stuff.

Here is his INSANE durability.
Superman using his body to manage tesseracts which would easily destroy earth. Apparently, even being in pieces doesn't phase the man of steel!

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/4610/jla07838fc.th.jpg



http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5554/jla07841cb.th.jpg

And he's back together again. He somehow repaired time/space rips in space with his body. One of Supes more....interesting feats...

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/6550/jla07850rs.th.jpg

On-the-fly T-vo. Erads ends up fighting the armor that Supes created.

http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/8025/vo8tc.th.jpg

Apparently, he's learned how to work independently from any illusions he forms as well.

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/5434/vo22rc.th.jpg

He later screws with Erads mind.

Superman sucks Dominus into a psychic arena of his choosing using Torquasm Vo. One of his lesser used abilities. It's borderline reality control. Notice that he makes it so Dominus CAN'T create effective kryptonite.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4250/torquasmvo4po.th.jpg

Superman resists actual reality control and adapts to it on the fly...
He even turns into Kingdom come Superman and Superman 1M while fighting.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9751/vo23kw.th.jpg
Once again making Kryptonite useless.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8059/vo31hz.th.jpg

Supes is no slouch in the vision dept. either.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/supesvision.jpg

http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/5134/supessoul4pi.jpg

I think Superman's Torquasm Vo is working. I sure have one hell of a headache after looking at those scans

I wonder why DC keeps amping up Superman like this. I mean soon he'll be at or near his pre-crisis level with the accompanying assortment of bizarre powers and then they'll just have to de-power the character again.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Supes is no slouch in the vision dept. either.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/supesvision.jpg

And don't forget the "Soul Vision"!

Originally posted by TheKahn
And don't forget the "Soul Vision"!

LOL, I edited and posted that too!

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
LOL, I edited and posted that too!

How quick does Supes get his powers?

He was powerless when boomtoobed into the Sun.... and before he could even get burned, he regained his powers.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/supessun.jpg

He even survives being thrown into a red sun twice.


http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/470/sun9ep.th.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8323/sun23pb.th.jpg



These both happened the same issue...

and that's what i was trying to say earlier, sans scans. nothing ss can do is new. supes has overcome at some point everything ss has to throw. gog put k-nite in his BLOODSTREAM! pc blasts won't cut it, unless supes is weakened. red sun rad could do it eventually. k-nite (IF he can discern the weakness) could do it eventually. but it would take a long time. ss COULD win that way, by using these powers to weaken him but it wouldn't be easy.

as for manipulating supes field -- maybe he could dizzle. it is a BIO field though, which imo would be much more difficult for him to manipulate. i mentioned a few times he had trouble manipulating orgainic matter. it's possible the field may be a tougher nut to crack than simply waving it away. could he? maybe. or maybe it would take him some time to do it, again, prolonging the fight. during which supes may be able to take the fight to the sun to replenish.

as for ss attacking before supes knows about it -- i find it very unlikely. supes speed is hardly inconsequential -- multiples of lightspeed is NOT slow. he also thinks and reacts at enormous speeds and unlike ss has LOADS of COMBAT speed feats -- something ss is SORELY lacking for all his appearances.

avy did a great job of illustrating the power of t-vo. with it operating at full power, i see no reason why supes couldn't win this fight almost every time. without it, ss takes majority but supes CAN still win.

Originally posted by Dizzle
So everything Thanos can do, Superman can do? I doubt it

of course not.

Originally posted by leonidas
draining his solar power has ben tried umpteen times and has never really worked. supes stores months worth of power and the sun replenishes him very quickly.

yes, but it will weaken him. and really that all Norrin needs.

Or he just traps superman in the board.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_122_17.jpg

jeezus that's freaky. That's like Norrin's own phantom zone.

Not to mention T Vo really worked on Erads because it was a kryptonian custom in fighting that way. SS won't feel the same way about that...........soul vision is retarded

SS still for the win...supes vision big deal, ss has powers like that in spades, Tvo is great if thats how SS would handle him and it probably wouldn't be..............................yeah SS 4 the majority.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
yes, but it will weaken him. and really that all Norrin needs.

Or he just traps superman in the board.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1996_122_17.jpg

i tend to agree with the former -- the board thing was still ridiculous imo . . .

oh, and for those wh assume ss can simply manipulate his shields, don't forget that quasar with the q-bands SEEMED to have an upper hand on ss in a battle they had. ss didn't seem to be able to control the q-band energy at will. the point? ss doesn't and can't simply control all forms of enery at a whim. some require far more effort to gain control over.

Originally posted by leonidas
i tend to agree with the former -- the board thing was still ridiculous imo . . .

oh, and for those wh assume ss can simply manipulate his shields, don't forget that quasar with the q-bands SEEMED to have an upper hand on ss in a battle they had. ss didn't seem to be able to control the q-band energy at will. the point? ss doesn't and can't simply control all forms of enery at a whim. some require far more effort to gain control over.

Qbands also had Quasar controlling them so its wasn't just a passive energy force......................

LOL this fight is really about who can post the most ridiculous feats first I mean SS and SM are HUGE jobbers and they always seem to find just the right power to fit the plot lol

Actually when these 2 guys start to fight Chuck Norris comes in and Round House Kicks which restarts the universe in a big bang the End!

Originally posted by leonidas
i tend to agree with the former -- the board thing was still ridiculous imo . . .

oh, and for those wh assume ss can simply manipulate his shields, don't forget that quasar with the q-bands SEEMED to have an upper hand on ss in a battle they had. ss didn't seem to be able to control the q-band energy at will. the point? ss doesn't and can't simply control all forms of enery at a whim. some require far more effort to gain control over.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosmicPowersUnlimited05-10.jpg


full fight
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-34.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-35.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-36.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-37.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-38.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-39.jpg

Originally posted by TheKahn
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosmicPowersUnlimited05-10.jpg


full fight
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-34.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-35.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-36.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-37.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-38.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Quasar-50-39.jpg




you know q LET him win, right . . .?

in any event -- what i've been saying all along is this isn't an 'easy' win for ss, as so many believe. most think a shot of k-nite beats supes, or red sunlight automatically means he'll lose. it doesn't. there is still some question about whether ss can control supes shield and there is a LOT of questions about whether he can transmute organic matter -- ie turn supes to stone.

using the observable, on-panel feats both have displayed, i don't know how (unless you are an 'anti-fanboy' -- worse even than 'fanboys' imo) you can say this is NOT at least a pretty close fight.

Just as some of the Surfer's powers require more effort and concentration than others, the same should be said of Superman's abilities, especially the more obscure ones like this TVO thing (which, IMO, is starting to smell a bit like a plot device).

I think the concensus being reached is that Superman has the ability to beat Surfer...but not quite as much ability as Surfer has to beat Superman.

It's a shame they never fought in their crossover. When I first bought that mag and flipped through it, catching that panel where Surfer is apparently blasting Superman, man what a disappointment when I read the story and found out what was really going on...though I did like the part where Superman was clearly impressed by the Surfer's power.

Originally posted by leonidas


you know q LET him win, right . . .?

in any event -- what i've been saying all along is this isn't an 'easy' win for ss, as so many believe. most think a shot of k-nite beats supes, or red sunlight automatically means he'll lose. it doesn't. there is still some question about whether ss can control supes shield and there is a LOT of questions about whether he can transmute organic matter -- ie turn supes to stone.

using the observable, on-panel feats both have displayed, i don't know how (unless you are an 'anti-fanboy' -- worse even than 'fanboys' imo) you can say this is NOT at least a pretty close fight.

I know. I posted the first one because Quasar said the Surfer could have broken through his construct anytime he wanted. And in the fight, its not until the 4th scan that Quasar actually realizes that he's been tricked and decides to let the Surfer win. At first both sides were fighting to save the universe (I therefore assume neither was holding back) and it seemed like Surfer had the advantage.

And I agree that it would be a close fight as Surfer never seems to use his myriad of powers to their greatest effect in a fight and Superman doesn't seem really to have any upper limits as he seems to always holding back. Who knows just how powerful either really is.

TVO thing..wats that?

Originally posted by spideycarnage
TVO thing..wats that?

Look on page 6 of this thread. Avalonofthewind posted some scans of it being used and explained it.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Look on page 6 of this thread. Avalonofthewind posted some scans of it being used and explained it.

wow, soon he's gonna be able to manipulate matter to add to his list of powers.lol

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Dominus has cosmic awareness, Darkseid has it, GL's have it, Eradicator has MULTIVERSAL cosmic awareness. Surfer comes from a different universe, as has been made canon, if they fight on neutral ground, how will SS know the frequency? Supes can easily fool him using Torquasm VO.
To be honest who's to say that T VO(I think I was the 1st to use that abbreviation. If so, anyone who's used it since owes me five cents for each time they've used it.) works on people from the Marvel Universe? Or that Supes bio-field protects him from attacks from another universe? Can Marvel characters breathe DC oxygen? It's best for us to just say that all powers & abilities from each hero are in full effect.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I know. I posted the first one because Quasar said the Surfer could have broken through his construct anytime he wanted.
LOLZ! But Quasar knocked out the Watcher, friend!

Originally posted by Validus
LOLZ! But Quasar knocked out the Watcher, friend! Heh, and Lunatik kicked a Watcher in the nuts.