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Psylocke, Jean and Emma in the Danger Room--who's the last psi standing?

All have TP. Psylocke has her Crimson Dawn abilities. Jean has TK. Emma has diamond form.

Jean Grey. Quite easily.

This should be Psylocke and Emma vs. Jean Grey.

Originally posted by coosie
This should be Psylocke and Emma vs. Jean Grey. Yeah, this way it would be much more balanced.

Fine: Jean vs Psylocke & Emma

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Fine: Jean vs Psylocke & Emma am i the only one who gets wood everytime he pictures this fight in his head?

Uh....yeah?

Originally posted by King KAM
am i the only one who gets wood everytime he pictures this fight in his head?














no.....


lol, anyways

jean should still be able to win against the other two. Isn't she powerful enough to just take control of both of their minds?

I thought she was just one rung below xavier....

I think even without that whole Phoenix crap, she has surpassed Exavier's telepathy.

Originally posted by King KAM
am i the only one who gets wood everytime he pictures this fight in his head?

I certainly hope so..

Jean quite easily...even if she wasn't a telepath of the highest order, she could throw Betsy around until she's bloodied up the danger room, while sheilding herself from Emma's punches and kicks and then beat the White Queen AGAIN on the astral plane or whatever...easy win for the orginal femme fatale x-telepath...

Jean easily. She's been at it longer......TK and TP wise. Having those two powers, pretty much dictates the outcome of the battle. ANF that's without the PF.

I would have to say Emma Frost she out ranks them both with telepathy and when in her diamond form Jean's tk can't do that much damage since without phoenix jean. If I'm not mistaken Jean and Emma fought before and Emma won very easily. Psylockye might give Emma trouble but emma would take it. Jean wasn't even strong enough to use cebero while emma and Psylockye were experts

Emma's not coming out of this ok. She's good, but she's not good enough to to take out either one of them, and certainly not both of them.

How can Emma not be good enough with having no phoenix she is the second powerful-est psychic. Betsy was in the top five and jean wasn't even given a category because she wasn't a worthy psychic. Jeans tk could hardly pick up anything worth a crap so Emma diamond form will protect her from tk attacks and have you ever seen jean beat Emma in a psychic battle i think not because she was weak her daughter who is a far more power psychic struggles in a fight with Emma. So get real jean loses and psylockye loses because Emma psychic talents surpasses hers

Emma in no way surpasses Jean, Emma is simply unscrupulous in the usage of her psi powers, Jean evicted her from her own body without even trying. In her first appearance Jean could lift Beast and toss him around as well as grab missiles in mid flight and direct them into the sea, she could have handled the weight of Emma then. Psylocke has had so much emphasis on her psi-blade and ninja skills I don't think her telepathy can be properly gauged after the siege perilous. Psylocke with her crimson dawn power would appear to be more formidable on the astral plane, since when her astral form was destroyed, it was reborn in it's shadow form a little more powerful. Jean seems to have the advantage with her telekinesis since Emma and Psylocke are brawlers and could be kept at a distance. Emma also has a flaw in her diamond form that was shattered by a bullet, a telekinetic could probably do the same thing.

I always thought that w/o Phoenix Jean and Psylocke were equals :/

Originally posted by LordKaos
Jean evicted her from her own body without even trying.

Untrue...Emma wasn't even in her body when Jean did that...Emma placed herself in a psychic coma before that incident...and then Jean possessed her mindless body...I also seem to remember Emma's psychic backlash effecting Jean in that same issue...

Fact Jean had to find and possess a mindless/hostless body in order to survive the ordeal....Emma on the other hand...only needed to place herself in a psychic coma...



Ever since the Phoenix put Emma back together...there has been no sign of the flaw...hence the reason why Danger had to resort to blackmail inorder to take out Emma...

BTW Jean is the Phoenix...so when people say no Phoenix they're basically talking about the Jean before she was retconned....meaning it's the Jean without the Phoenix before the Inferno saga...during the Inferno Saga...Jeans DNA was merged with the essence of the Phoenix and Pyor...so any other appearances after that incident would count as Jean being the Phoenix....

When the Force met Jean it duplicated her body....so any feats after that duplication clone are not hers....

Once that Clone died...Jean was found in a cacoon...that's the real Jean...

Up to Inferno where the Life-force of the Phoenix was permanently integrated into Jeans DNA....

So anything after that is Jean/Phoenix..

Anyway if we take current continuity then Jean is and has always been the Phoenix...so basically all her feats are redundant...

Originally posted by ddsmrt
How can Emma not be good enough with having no phoenix she is the second powerful-est psychic. Betsy was in the top five and jean wasn't even given a category because she wasn't a worthy psychic. Jeans tk could hardly pick up anything worth a crap so Emma diamond form will protect her from tk attacks and have you ever seen jean beat Emma in a psychic battle i think not because she was weak her daughter who is a far more power psychic struggles in a fight with Emma. So get real jean loses and psylockye loses because Emma psychic talents surpasses hers

You obviously need to reread your comics because Jean had bested Emma in telepathy on many occasions. Jean is the second most powerful telepath next to Xavier. The only one time that I could think of Emma besting her was when she was in emotional distraught during the pre dark phoenix saga WITH the help of mastermind I might add. Jean's coming terms with the phoenix persona, Cyclop's constant outing and flirting with Dazzler, and after affect of saving the universe and being in the sun, had made her vulnerable to telepathic assault. Her defenses were down at that moment. Even without, the phoenix force, she is a contender to be reckoned with. She has stored Xavier's memories and psych in her own mind, DIVIDED them among globally, purged Apocalypse's essence out of Scott's body, and put the beat down on Emma. Emma is just pure ruthless BUT that doesn't make her more powerful than Jean, considering that after she lost her TK, her TP doubled in power. Jean takes this hands down. Emma may be invulnerable to physical assualt in her diamond form but if a bullet can shatter her, A powerful TK can easily find her pressure point, concentrate enough force to shatter her. Diamond may be hard BUT it can be shattered. Storm has bested Emma when she was in her diamond form. Storm has stated that with enough wind force applied by her, a straw of hay can penetrate Emma's hide easily. Emma's not going to win this one. I would have to say Jean, Psylocke, and Emma in that order.

Jean Grey

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Fine: Jean vs Psylocke & Emma

Jean still wins.

Originally posted by jffxex1980
A powerful TK can easily find her pressure point, concentrate enough force to shatter her. Diamond may be hard BUT it can be shattered. Storm has bested Emma when she was in her diamond form. Storm has stated that with enough wind force applied by her, a straw of hay can penetrate Emma's hide easily. Emma's not going to win this one. I would have to say Jean, Psylocke, and Emma in that order.

Just so you know...statements like that don't go far in KMC....actions speak louder then words...there was no indication that Emma's diamond form even has pressure points..as she's perfectly smooth....even Danger had to resort to blackmail in order to take Emmes out...

Anyway this fight does not inhibit Jean from tapping into the Phoenix Force...

Without the Phoenix Force I'd say Jean is out though....because a.)according to current continuity Jean is the Phoenix Force making all her feats redundant..and b.) Because the Jean before the Inferno Saga (When the PF fused itself into Jeans DNA) was nothing to shout about.

BTW Jean only bested Emma when she taps into the PF...Psylocke with the Crimson Dawn got owned on the Astral Plane by the Shadow King...

With PF:

Jean:
Emma
Psylocke

Without
Emma
Psylocke
Jean

No Psylocke defeated the Shadow King actually and locked him inside her mind.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Just so you know...statements like that don't go far in KMC....actions speak louder then words...there was no indication that Emma's diamond form even has pressure points..as she's perfectly smooth....even Danger had to resort to blackmail in order to take Emmes out...

Anyway this fight does not inhibit Jean from tapping into the Phoenix Force...

Without the Phoenix Force I'd say Jean is out though....because a.)according to current continuity Jean is the Phoenix Force making all her feats redundant..and b.) Because the Jean before the Inferno Saga (When the PF fused itself into Jeans DNA) was nothing to shout about.

BTW Jean only bested Emma when she taps into the PF...Psylocke with the Crimson Dawn got owned on the Astral Plane by the Shadow King...

With PF:

Jean:
Emma
Psylocke

Without
Emma
Psylocke
Jean

Jean wins with or without the Phoenix Force, my friend. She's just far too powerful.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
No Psylocke defeated the Shadow King actually and locked him inside her mind.

Did you read that comic? Did you see how she got her butt kicked? She got trashed in the first comic...and most of the second...then he got arrogant and decided to enter the minds of everyone one Earth he made a "Rudimentary" mistake and left his nexus unguarded...and she attacked his nexus which supposedly trapped him on the Astral plane....but it actually didn't as shown by New Excalibur..he wasn't trapped he escaped to another reality where he formed the Dark X-Men...etc...

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Jean wins with or without the Phoenix Force, my friend. She's just far too powerful.

What one feat from Pre-Retcon Jean...the one without the Phoenix would place her on par with the other two?

Remember Jean without the PF....

So lets see:

All her feats possessing the PF aren't valid....

All her feats as Marvel girl up to the first appearance of the Phoenix Force are valid....

All feats after that up to the caccoon aren't...as that wasn't Jean...

All feats after the Caccoon to the end of the Inferno arc are valid...

During the Inferno arc...the Phoenix Force is merged into Jeans DNA...so any feat after that event would count as a Phoenix/Jean event....

Now realise that's pre-retcons Jean.....the Jean in current continuity is the Phoenix...so basically all her feats are actually Phoenix/Jean feats...

Also note that Jean pre-Inferno never had Psylockes telepathy added to her own....and never had the 15 years training in the future..

just wondering something maybe someone can clear it up for me, but didn't jean get pissed when she found out scott and emma had an affair and jean basically kicked her ass? i'm not sure but i read about it somewhere and can't quite remember.

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
just wondering something maybe someone can clear it up for me, but didn't jean get pissed when she found out scott and emma had an affair and jean basically kicked her ass? i'm not sure but i read about it somewhere and can't quite remember.

New X-Men #139 I think it's #139....? Yeah she goes all Phoenixy on Emma once the Cuckoos inform her about their affair....in any event that's Phoenix/Jean..

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
New X-Men #139 I think it's #139....? Yeah she goes all Phoenixy on Emma once the Cuckoos inform her about their affair....in any event that's Phoenix/Jean..

ahhh... i see and is that the same issue that emma was shattered by a diamond bullet? (i know it has nothing to do with the jean v emma v psylocke)

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
ahhh... i see and is that the same issue that emma was shattered by a diamond bullet? (i know it has nothing to do with the jean v emma v psylocke)

Yep and then the Phoenix put her back together...

oh, okay well thanks for the info.

I was under the impression that it was the memories of the goblyn queen and phoenix that jean absorbed at the end of inferno, she rid herself of what she absorbed from them when she helped scott to increase his optic blast against galactus or something like that.

Since when is being in a coma leaving your body? people in comas retreat into their minds, a psychic coma would just imply that the person can cause themselves to go into a coma on demand, and whether she evicted her from her body or not the transfer was so complete that Jean was able to take her tk with her, and Xaiver himself said that it was impossible to do. When Dr. Doom and his Seer traveled through time to find the origins of Onslaught they encountered the Phoenix/Jean entity twice, and then Jean herself in which the Seer said there was no trace of the Phoenix, so after she expunged those memories she was Jean, who was reaching her omega level status as Phoenix at a normal rate.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I was under the impression that it was the memories of the goblyn queen and phoenix that jean absorbed at the end of inferno, she rid herself of what she absorbed from them when she helped scott to increase his optic blast against galactus or something like that.

Since when is being in a coma leaving your body? people in comas retreat into their minds, a psychic coma would just imply that the person can cause themselves to go into a coma on demand, and whether she evicted her from her body or not the transfer was so complete that Jean was able to take her tk with her, and Xaiver himself said that it was impossible to do. When Dr. Doom and his Seer traveled through time to find the origins of Onslaught they encountered the Phoenix/Jean entity twice, and then Jean herself in which the Seer said there was no trace of the Phoenix, so after she expunged those memories she was Jean, who was reaching her omega level status as Phoenix at a normal rate.

It was the memories, soul, essence and life-force of the Phoenix and Goblyn Queen.

She got rid of Maddies memories. The essence and life-force was engrained into her etc

Xavier and Jean couldn't sense a mind in Emmas body or psychic trace...so you tell me? Her mind lingered in a psychic coma over the body...that's why Forges machinery went hay wire...

That TK thing was never explained....and Emma has shown signs of being a latent telekinetic..so Jean could have tapped into that....

The seer would have been wrong then....because as of current continuity the Phoenix is Jean...so retcon away....and the Seer never said after those memories were expunged the Phoenix was removed from her...she just said she could sense no trace...implying that she couldn't sense it...

BTW As of current continuity her Omega Level mutation is the Phoenix...

The seer was a man he sensed no trace of the Phoenix force, Jean is the Phoenix avatar she is not always in possession of the Phoenix consciousness, Jean and Xaiver couldn't sense a mind in Emma after Jean was already out of it, was it said that Emma was responsible for her condition or could it be that jeans actions caused the psychic coma you speak of, if emma had caused the coma herself then why didn't she undo it when her body was vacant it was obvious her body wasn't damage or Jean would not have been able to use it, she instead possessed Iceman. When her diamond body was destroyed her consciousness lingered in that same state, but she did not cause it her death at the hands of somebody else did. It was never hinted that Emma was a telekinetic until after Jean inhabited her body, which could mean Jean left traces of tk in her, which is something like her swapping powers with Psylocke who still had tk even after Jean got hers back.

BTW I'm fully aware that her omega level is Phoenix that's why I said she was able to reach her omega level status as Phoenix at a normal rate, without the consciousness interfering.

Originally posted by LordKaos
The seer was a man he sensed no trace of the Phoenix force, Jean is the Phoenix avatar she is not always in possession of the Phoenix consciousness, Jean and Xaiver couldn't sense a mind in Emma after Jean was already out of it, was it said that Emma was responsible for her condition or could it be that jeans actions caused the psychic coma you speak of, if emma had caused the coma herself then why didn't she undo it when her body was vacant it was obvious her body wasn't damage or Jean would not have been able to use it, she instead possessed Iceman. When her diamond body was destroyed her consciousness lingered in that same state, but she did not cause it her death at the hands of somebody else did. It was never hinted that Emma was a telekinetic until after Jean inhabited her body, which could mean Jean left traces of tk in her, which is something like her swapping powers with Psylocke who still had tk even after Jean got hers back.

BTW I'm fully aware that her omega level is Phoenix that's why I said she was able to reach her omega level status as Phoenix at a normal rate, without the consciousness interfering.

He couldn't sense a trace of the Phoenix Force...it doesn't mean it wasn't their...as she had it in New X-Men and has shown the fiery raptor on numerous occasions. She is not in possession of the Phoenix consciousness because the consiousness has a mind of it's own and speaks to Jean when needed but she is in possession of the Force...as shown in New X-Men...

The White Queen was announced "Lifeless" pages before Jean transferred her mind...so nope Jean was not the cause...how do you undo something when you're in a psychic coma..that's why she did it...it was a life or death situation...and in New X-Men it was never stated whether or not Emma caused the Coma herself when she was shattered...

Um...mutations are genetic...when Emma and Storm switched minds...they both kept their powers...leaving TK traces? Where'd you get that from?

The Betsy power swap...was unique...it was also undocumented...

The consiousness only talks to Jean when it's needed to...the Force itself is Jeans mutation as shown in Endsong...and New X-Men...the fragments are pieces of her...

Xaiver said that Jean completely transferred her mind and powers, you said emma placed herself in a psychic coma, when? was if before or after the attack, why would a person in physical danger make themselves more vulnerable? So then we can suspect that she was killed and her being a powerful telepath allows her to linger after death. If in fact the body was lifeless it only proves my point more because that means Jean can reanimate a dead body just by putting her mind into it. Jean is the superior psi.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Xaiver said that Jean completely transferred her mind and powers, you said emma placed herself in a psychic coma, when? was if before of after the attack, why would a person in physical danger make themselves more vulnerable? So then we can suspect that she was killed and her being a powerful telepath allows her to linger after death. If in fact the body was lifeless it only proves my point more because that means Jean can reanimate a dead body just by putting her mind into it.

No he said she transferred her mind only...Jean also said she transferred her mind only, where are you seeing this power thing?

She placed herself in a coma as she saw the sentinels....she wasn't going to make it out alive...so the next best thing is place herself in a psychic coma so they think she's dead and leave her alone...(Drastic measures used in a drastic situation)

Xavier even states that he would have sensed a powerful psychic like the White Queen die...had she died...

Jeans body survived without a mind...

And Jean can't reanimate the dead in that way....because the White Queen wasn't dead per say...she was in a "dead like" state...but not dead...

So no...

If a bullet can shatter Emma in pieces, you honestly think a strong TK like Jean can't do it? Her TK is so strong that it operates on a MOLECULAR level. She can easily sever the atomic bonds of carbon in Emma's body in diamond form and she'd be nothing more than floating molecules. She is far too experienced and powerful to be taken by Emma or Psylocke. NOT only Emma loses telepathy in diamond form BUT she also becomes susceptible to mental assaults. It's a trade off. Remember, she was held in place by some floating brain (I do not know the name of the brain but it's the same brain later on that appears with the good Cassandra Nova and follows her around on a leash) before and got punched in the face and she had to revert back to her human form to use her telepathy. U know damn well, regardless without the phoenix force, she's too damn strong to be taken lightly.

jean wins, mind r**** Psylocke, wears emma's head as a crown.

jean'll make em fight each other

Originally posted by jffxex1980
If a bullet can shatter Emma in pieces, you honestly think a strong TK like Jean can't do it? Her TK is so strong that it operates on a MOLECULAR level. She can easily sever the atomic bonds of carbon in Emma's body in diamond form and she'd be nothing more than floating molecules. She is far too experienced and powerful to be taken by Emma or Psylocke. NOT only Emma loses telepathy in diamond form BUT she also becomes susceptible to mental assaults. It's a trade off. Remember, she was held in place by some floating brain (I do not know the name of the brain but it's the same brain later on that appears with the good Cassandra Nova and follows her around on a leash) before and got punched in the face and she had to revert back to her human form to use her telepathy. U know damn well, regardless without the phoenix force, she's too damn strong to be taken lightly.

Firstly Phoenix/Jean's TK works on a molecular level...not non-phoenix Jean...secondly the bullet shattered her flaw..which she doesn't seem to have anymore...since the Phoenix put her back together and Danger had to resort to blackmail to take Emma out...thirdly it was a Psychic Chaff a chemical that the brain uses to control Emma...not waves...Cassandra Nova couldn't use her telepathy against Emma when she was in diamond form as shown in New X-Men...her mind was "mirrored"

And I already said Phoenix/Jean would win....however Jean without the Phoenix...would lose...

Again...what feat does (Non-Phoenix Jean)Pre-Inferno Jean have that even puts her on par with the other two...
Before the retcon Jean was bonded to the Phoenixes life-force and essence at the end of the Inferno arc...anything after that would count as Jean/Phoenix...after the latest retcon Jean is the Phoenix...so if we take current continuity she automatically loses because all Jeans feats are Jean/Phoenix feats...and if we take Pre-Retcons Jean...then you have to use the Jean(No Phoenix Entity, no Clones) before the Inferno arc...which limits her feats. Everything from her first appearance to the first appearance of the PF is valid...everything after that and up to the cacoon is not...everything after the cacoon to the Inferno arc is...everything after the Inferno arc isn't....no clone feats allowed...and no Phoenix feats allowed...

Cassandra has called Emma a bush league telepath. Jean is only second to xavier in telepathy. She had been taught by the best. She's a skilled TK. I hardly doubt, Emma could get through Jean's forcefield. AND keep in mind that this is the same chica that shielded the ENTIRE New York city from an atomic blast in the age of Apocalypse. You're giving her little credit....so little credit to what she can do. Like I said before, all she needs to do is sever the carbon bonds and Emma is nothing more than house dust.

"Frost's full range of abilities between her diamond state and regular form have also been inconsistent; while some occurances would have some readers believe that due to a genetic flaw Frost cannot access her telepathy in diamond form, later stories have contradicted this. However, recent clarifications in X-Men #190 and Astonishing X-Men have shown that Morrison's initial depiction of her powers was correct: that Frost cannot access her psychic powers in diamond form and vice versa."

I think Jean (no phoenix/pre phoenix) isn't really weak nor she is really super strong as in cosmic strong. I read somwhere that from the very start, professor x already knew about the omega class mutants and he already know that iceman and jean are both omega he just didn't say anything to anyone about the whole thing. And this was before the phoenix. So even if Jean had no connection to the phoenix, she is still omega like iceman. That is if what i've read is accurate.

Originally posted by jffxex1980
Cassandra has called Emma a bush league telepath. Jean is only second to xavier in telepathy. She had been taught by the best. She's a skilled TK. I hardly doubt, Emma could get through Jean's forcefield. AND keep in mind that this is the same chica that shielded the ENTIRE New York city from an atomic blast in the age of Apocalypse. You're giving her little credit....so little credit to what she can do. Like I said before, all she needs to do is sever the carbon bonds and Emma is nothing more than house dust.

"Frost's full range of abilities between her diamond state and regular form have also been inconsistent; while some occurances would have some readers believe that due to a genetic flaw Frost cannot access her telepathy in diamond form, later stories have contradicted this. However, recent clarifications in X-Men #190 and Astonishing X-Men have shown that Morrison's initial depiction of her powers was correct: that Frost cannot access her psychic powers in diamond form and vice versa."

A mere insult...Emma has been described on panel by the narrative as a Psi of the Highest Order...

Firstly...in a battle between teleapaths it always ends up in a Telepathic fight....as it's their quickest for of attack...so it's doubtful Diamond Form, Tk etc will come into play.... in any event....telepathic attacks can by pass TK shields...

Secondly AoA is an alternate reality..and therefore can't be used when debating 616 characters...

Thirdly I don't think you understand what I'm saying...Jean without the Phoenix (Pre-Retcons Jean) has never had TK that worked on a Molecular level....also..as stated above...TP is the fastest attack they have...meaning it'll come down to a TP battle...and finally Pre-Retcon Jean you know the one before the Inferno Arc...was never anything to shout about...again I ask what has she ever done that would place her on par with Psylocke or Emma?

As for the Diamond/Telepathy thing...that's not what I said at all...I said Nova was unable to use her telepathy on Emmas mind when she was in Diamond Form...so go figure...

BTW As for the Diamond/Telepathy access...it's debatable....Emma has used her telepathy and diamond form similtaneously on more then 3 occasions...the character Emma Frost is supposed to be handled by Whedon...and yes she's used them both similtaneously in AXM(she's also used it in Morrisons run)...so as you can see X-Men #190 isn't Emma's official book....so if there is a contradiction Whedons view would be the right one...

Originally posted by psy_blade
I think Jean (no phoenix/pre phoenix) isn't really weak nor she is really super strong as in cosmic strong. I read somwhere that from the very start, professor x already knew about the omega class mutants and he already know that iceman and jean are both omega he just didn't say anything to anyone about the whole thing. And this was before the phoenix. So even if Jean had no connection to the phoenix, she is still omega like iceman. That is if what i've read is accurate.


As of current continuity Jean is the Phoenix...Jeans Omega mutation is the Phoenix Force..so nope Jean as of current continuity has never existed without the Phoenix...and that is why Jean(No Phoenix) automatically loses when we use current continuity...

Now Pre-Retcons Jean has...but she's only existed without it before the Inferno Saga...during this saga...the Phoenix was embedded into Jean....it's life force it's essence etc.... and that Jean was nothing to shout about....

Most of you are talking about jean phoenix and just don't know what jean w/o phoenix's boost are like. Jean grey w/o phoenix isn't even near being in the top ten of telepath's. Her tk was low leveled as well, she was a mediocre mutant and was very unpopular because she wouldn't pass out from trying to use cerebro while on the other hand Emma had no problem using it. Normal Jean has never beat Emma frost and the only person that could was professor x or shadow king. Who were the only telepaths that could get the best of her. Most of you are talking about phoenix's accomplishments as a telepath and telekinetic. So you don't know what your talking about so just learn from those that do and until you learn stop submitting these stupid post.

Jean w/o phoenix would lie in the beta level category because her powers were extremely limited to the point that all telepaths that x-men faced could easily control her.

Originally posted by ddsmrt
Jean w/o phoenix would lie in the beta level category because her powers were extremely limited to the point that all telepaths that x-men faced could easily control her.

A bit harsh there...Jean would still be an Omega mutant...

The point I was trying to make is that

A.) According to current continuity Jeans mutation is the Phoenix..here Omeganess is the Phoenix...the Phoenix has always been Jean Grey...therefore there is no such thing as Jean without the Phoenix...which means Jean has no feats without the Phoenix...therefore Jean Grey(Without the Phoenix ) loses.

and

B.) Now if we take the Jean before the many retcons...Jean and the Phoenix were seperate entities...in her first appearance...she wasn't the Phoenix...so her feats from this day to the first appearance of the PF are valid...the PF then duplicated Jean and placed the REAL Jean in a cacoon...so any feats after this are void....after the caccoon was found...the REAL Jean emerged...and her feats from this point to the Inferno arc are valid...during the Inferno arc...Jean and Madeylne were about to die...but the Phoenix saved Jean by merding it's Memories, Life-Force, Essence and Soul etc into her...therefore any appearances after this would count as Jean/Phoenix appearances...

And that is why Pre-retcons Jean who is so limited in Phoenixless feats would lose...

Jean is a low leveled mutant w/o phoenix I'm just stating it how the comics had it. JEan would be an omega w/o phoenix because she could never reach that point on her own that was the point of making an enity that she use to expand her powers. That was the only way to make her an more popular character. Marvel comics said this themselves, so Jean no phoenix is the first one taken out then psylocke and emma battle but I think emma would prevail in the end. Emma is a powerful mutant with telepathic powers alone plus her secondary mutantation makes her very durable.

This Jean/phoenix/omega is all so confusing. Does this mean Jean is in a class of her own? Like, she's class special-omega or something? Because Iceman is an omega but he cant be phoenix right? And what would've happened to Jean and her omeganess if she didn't drive that space shuttle and have never met the phoenix force?

omega means that that person has unlimited power phoenix has unlimited telekinetic power and telepathic powers, iceman has unlimited hydrokientic powers. Just because someone is an omega doesn't mean they are unbeatable. In my personal opion I feel that Phoenix should have been the only omega since she is trually knowledgeable of her full powers

So it means Jean has unlimited telepathic and telekinetic power? And Iceman has unlimited power to control cold?

Originally posted by psy_blade
This Jean/phoenix/omega is all so confusing. Does this mean Jean is in a class of her own? Like, she's class special-omega or something? Because Iceman is an omega but he cant be phoenix right? And what would've happened to Jean and her omeganess if she didn't drive that space shuttle and have never met the phoenix force?

The Phoenix is her mutation....Iceman could very well become a "Phoenix" of his own someday...that space thing was retconned...and..they never gave a proper explanation for the many retcons....though..

BTW Omega is just potential...unlimited potential in their mutation...this doesn't mean the potential will be realized(i.e. Iceman)....meaning you could have an Omega mutant who is so pathetic that they'd be beaten by Beak..

If Iceman could very well become a "phoenix" of his own someday does this mean has the potential to hold a galaxy in his hands like Jean or something close to that feat? Im sorry im lost.

omega is to have unlimited power of a mutant ability, that is why I said phoenix should be the only omega because she has reached her level of power Iceman and most of the other omegas only have potential

Originally posted by psy_blade
If Iceman could very well become a "phoenix" of his own someday does this mean has the potential to hold a galaxy in his hands like Jean or something close to that feat? Im sorry im lost.

I meant "Phoenix" as in something in the power range of the Phoenix...an ultimate mutation..don't know what his ultimate mutation would be like though...so can't tell you that..what we've been told is that all Omegas possess infinite potential...but that doesn't mean they'll realize it....

Ice man cannot become a phoneix more like a all powerful hydrokinetic/thermokinetic phoenix is something that is unique and wouldn't manefest like the way it did with jean the probelm with the whole omega thing is that marvel contridicts itself because one minute they say that to be an omega means to be all powerful like phoenix the next mutants only have to master powers.

Originally posted by ddsmrt
Ice man cannot become a phoneix more like a all powerful hydrokinetic/thermokinetic phoenix is something that is unique and wouldn't manefest like the way it did with jean the probelm with the whole omega thing is that marvel contridicts itself because one minute they say that to be an omega means to be all powerful like phoenix the next mutants only have to master powers.

I never said he would become a Phoenix..."Phoenix" is different from Phoenix ...I meant "Phoenix" as in the same power-range as the Jean/Phoenix....meh....the term Omega is senseless...and Omega PLUS is even worse...

and I thought I was long winded

a telepaths power increases with use/practice. Miss Grey's been honing, fielding, exploring & perfecting her tp from day 1. Through rigorous excercise she has earnt an alpha/omega ranking

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
A bit harsh there...Jean would still be an Omega mutant...

The point I was trying to make is that

A.) According to current continuity Jeans mutation is the Phoenix..here Omeganess is the Phoenix...the Phoenix has always been Jean Grey...therefore there is no such thing as Jean without the Phoenix...which means Jean has no feats without the Phoenix...therefore Jean Grey(Without the Phoenix ) loses.

and

B.) Now if we take the Jean before the many retcons...Jean and the Phoenix were seperate entities...in her first appearance...she wasn't the Phoenix...so her feats from this day to the first appearance of the PF are valid...the PF then duplicated Jean and placed the REAL Jean in a cacoon...so any feats after this are void....after the caccoon was found...the REAL Jean emerged...and her feats from this point to the Inferno arc are valid...during the Inferno arc...Jean and Madeylne were about to die...but the Phoenix saved Jean by merding it's Memories, Life-Force, Essence and Soul etc into her...therefore any appearances after this would count as Jean/Phoenix appearances...

And that is why Pre-retcons Jean who is so limited in Phoenixless feats would lose...

Not true at all. Jeans omeganess as you put it is not down to the Phoenix. Her omega potential is what makes her a suitable vessel for the Phoenix. The potential itself, the power level isnt Phoenix. It just allows for it.

Jean when not manifesting the Phoenix is stated to be the second most powerful telepath on the planet. Emma Frost even acknowledges that Jean is greater than her.

Jean is also listed as one of the most powerful telekinetics on the planet.

Before Jean became the Phoenix again in New X-men she was shown to be the superior telepath in the silent issue of New X-men when she lead Emma through a psychic exploration of Xaviers mind.

In battle with a telekinetic Emma cant risk NOT being in diamond form and in her diamond form she by canon has no telepathy.

There are many articles onlime by the writers about Emma not being able to use it in her diamond form. The ONE instance where she has been shown to do so was an error. In all of her other appearances since her secondary mutation, appearances even after that ONE incident its established that she has no telepathy in that form.

Limited to her diamond form its an easy matter for Jean to break her down at a molecular level. She did after all restructure Emma at such a level previously nearly a year before she became the Phoenix in issue 150 of New X-men.

Actually there's more then once instance where she's used her powers similatanously...I have THREE...

And I think you're missing the point of my argument....Jean is still the Phoenix when she's not manifesting it's power.....Jean(No Phoenix) loses because she does not exist. Jean has always been the Phoenix as per retcon, after the Inferno arc she absorbed the life force, essence of the Phoenix....to save herself from Pyors attack...after that she's had it's essence inside her all time...now with New X-Men all the new Phoenix info...it's been retconned so that Jean has always been the Phoenix....therefore Jean(No Phoenix) does not exist...

BTW GS I never said her Omeganess was down to the Phoenix...I said her Omeganess mutation is the Phoenix(The Ultimate Mutation)....hence the reason why Jean(No Phoenix) loses by default....that has been my argument from the start...

As for this:



It showed no such thing...Emma being an idiot stuck her hand into a door mouth...why did she do it? Plot induced stupidty....Morrison only knows...that's about it...Jean also fell off a bridge in that issue...