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Ok with the success of my Kun vs Mace thread I decided to create a Kun vs Dooku thread.

Both were renowned Lightsaber duelists so who pervails?

Setting: Dantooine Outback

Dooku was at the very most, on par with Windu, so Kun would beat him down.

Well IMO Dooku was superior to Windu.

Either way, Kun beats his ass.

Originally posted by tdtd
Dooku was at the very most, on par with Windu, so Kun would beat him down.

Dooku had refined Makashi to it's ultimate level and is perhaps the best lightsaber duelist in the PT era. How does Kun just "beat him down" without using his overpowered uber force abilities?

Kun developed some sort of deadly saber technique that was only used by him at the time. He was good enough to pwn Vodo (who's like Yoda kinda). I think he beats Dooku pretty badly.

SO you're saying Dooku is above Vodo? Kun's technique is unknown, so if Mace can't stand up to him what makes you think dooku can

I concur. But I do not think Dooku was THAT much better than mace. In my little mind it helps me sleep better at night thinking that Mace Windu is better than Dooku at least.

Nah, Dooku would beat Mace. It wouldn't be easy, but he'd do it.

SO you're saying Dooku is above Vodo? Kun's technique is unknown, so if Mace can't stand up to him what makes you think dooku can

That's not what I said at all.

Originally posted by tdtd
SO you're saying Dooku is above Vodo? Kun's technique is unknown, so if Mace can't stand up to him what makes you think dooku can

I never said Dooku would win... I just don't think that Kun is gonna WTFpwn him.

Also Dooku has had somewhere around 70-75 years of training. Kun had about ten maybe at most?

And evidence of this is Wesker? Mace and Yoda were the greatest in the order, while Dooku was not. What makes you think Dooku is greater than MAce?

Don't be silly. Dooku had a reputation of being superior to Mace in saber ability.

Dooku beat Mace beforehand, and Dooku's style is the best in the series for saber to saber combat. Plus, his force power is nearly as great as Sidious' or Yodas.

Here's a quote from Starwars.com

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/?id=eu

Windu is damn close, no doubt. But if they were to fight I'd have to give it to Dooku. In my eyes he's tied with his Master overall.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Here's a quote from Starwars.com

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/?id=eu

Windu is damn close, no doubt. But if they were to fight I'd have to give it to Dooku. In my eyes he's tied with his Master overall.

Inconclusive there. It states only two opponents have "ever" bested him. Not that they were superior to him or even would best him with any consistency. Windu as of ROTS may well be superior to Dooku as of ROTS, the evidence is simply inconclusive.

Dooku is a wee bit better than Mace with a saber, probably.

I'd say that Kun would manage.

What about the fight in "When They Were Brothers"? I heard that Dooku won that one. Dunno what really happened though.

What Illustrious said, just because Dooku pwned him doesn't mean Mace didn't pwn him 99 other times. Mace and Yoda were considered the best in the order period, this is conclusive. So if Dooku was superior to Mace in saber combat they would have put him above Mace and on par with Yoda.. And no Wesker, Dooku's force power isn't near Yoda's nor Sidious.

Originally posted by tdtd
What Illustrious said, just because Dooku pwned him doesn't mean Mace didn't pwn him 99 other times. Mace and Yoda were considered the best in the order period, this is conclusive. So if Dooku was superior to Mace in saber combat they would have put him above Mace and on par with Yoda.. And no Wesker, Dooku's force power isn't near Yoda's nor Sidious.

No, that's not conclusive. Dooku wasn't IN the order when claims about Yoda and Mace being badass were asserted. If Dooku had been in the order and was more conservative, he'd be the second in command, that's stated in EU.

And yes, tdtd, Dooku's powers are considerable. Yoda himself says as much in AOTC and Dark Rendezvous. Also, Mace has shown nothing to compare to Dooku in that area.

Have you read shatterpoint? What makes you think Dooku would be second in command? Yoda and Mace were the best in the order as of TPM and as I recall this was before Dooku joined the dark side. And where does it state Dooku's powers as a comparison to Yoda and Sidious?

Originally posted by tdtd
Have you read shatterpoint? What makes you think Dooku would be second in command? Yoda and Mace were the best in the order as of TPM and as I recall this was before Dooku joined the dark side. And where does it state Dooku's powers as a comparison to Yoda and Sidious?

I have read Shatterpoint. Have you? I have all of the Clone Wars novels, and I've read them all.

And Yoda and Mace were on the council as of TPM, but Dooku and Qui-Gon were not, even though both of the latter were VERY wise and skilled in both the force and lightsaber combat. Why were they not on the council? Their maverick views. Read some EU, son. You would know that already.

And I am comparing Dooku's powers with Yoda's and Sidious'. Watch the movies.

What Illustrious said, just because Dooku pwned him doesn't mean Mace didn't pwn him 99 other times.

It can mean that, or it can mean Dooku pwned him 100 times straight. It's inconclusive, yes, but we do know Dooku can put Mace on his ass. What we don't know is if Mace can do the same.

Mace and Yoda were considered the best in the order period, this is conclusive.

Order period? News to me. I remember them being the best in the Order, but maybe because Dooku leaving the Order and becoming a Sith Lord. I don't think he'd be still counted with the rest of the Order.

So if Dooku was superior to Mace in saber combat they would have put him above Mace and on par with Yoda..

They have. Dark Rendezvous and Shatterpoint. Yoda claims that Mace is the only one who stands a chance aganst Dooku. Note he didn't say Mace can confidently beat him. And in Shatterpoint, Mace is not confident he can defeat Dooku. Hell, he's pretty much implying inferiority to Dooku.

And no Wesker, Dooku's force power isn't near Yoda's nor Sidious.

His lightning may not be as good as Sidious' but his force grip seemed pretty uber in it's own right.

Son...Personal attacks weaken your argument.. And when I asked if you've read shatterpoint it was an actual question, so instead of instead of calling me son to make yourself sound like a child, ask me what I meant.

How does his force grip seem uber? Anakin did it to Padme, big deal. And Wesker, you want me to watch the movies to compare Dooku's l337 force lightning to the lightning of Sidious or any of Yoda's powers? Maybe you should watch the movies, as his force most impressive force power is his force lightning that Yoda threw back at him.

Originally posted by tdtd
Son...Personal attacks weaken your argument.. And when I asked if you've read shatterpoint it was an actual question, so instead of instead of calling me son to make yourself sound like a child, ask me what I meant.

How does his force grip seem uber? Anakin did it to Padme, big deal. And Wesker, you want me to watch the movies to compare Dooku's l337 force lightning to the lightning of Sidious or any of Yoda's powers? Maybe you should watch the movies, as his force most impressive force power is his force lightning that Yoda threw back at him.


Wow. Anakin did it to a pregnant woman.

Dooku did it to a Jedi Master.


No, his most impressive feat was the one handed Lightning that he used barely any exertion for that threw Anakin across a Hangar.

Yea, and Yoda threw that same lightning back at him with one hand, without any problems whatsoever.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yea, and Yoda threw that same lightning back at him with one hand, without any problems whatsoever.


Cool, Dooku threw it at him with one hand and no trouble in the first place.

Why would Dooku have trouble throwing lightning at him? It doesn't take much power.. Yoda shot it back with no problem

Where is this topic going, anyways? It's quite clear than Dooku is more than a good match for Windu. Windu would not own Dooku by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why would Dooku have trouble throwing lightning at him? It doesn't take much power.. Yoda shot it back with no problem

It does if you want it to. Dooku didn't apply much power. That's the point.

Yep.

I'm thinking that Dooku didn't want to take a chance with a Force fight, when he was such a great duelest and had a fairly good chance of standing up to Yoda. That's why he said "This fight cannot be decided by the Force, but with our skills with a lightsaber.".

Just my idea. And Dooku is pretty good with the Force, being able to fling someone across a hangar with a single-handed bolt.

I don't think that was Dooku;s full lightning potential. He didn't look like he was straining all that much. Anakin sure looked strained tho. And he was down for a minute, as much as that pains me.

I don't think Yoda redirecting his lightning was the impressive part. I feel the impressive part was when he absorbed it.

He must have been more powerful than Dooku tho...after all, he did say, "Much to learn you still have."

Dooku didn't look like he liked that too much, so it must be true. So he knew he couldn't beat Yoda in force powers/knowledge, so he whipped out his lightsaber, knowing he had a better chance with that.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Anakin sure looked strained tho. And he was down for a minute, as much as that pains me.

Wait, you weren't laughing your gut out when Anakin got flung across the room into the wall?

What is wrong with you.

Anakin was a jackass in AotC. He deserved it.

Yea I know he did....but being as vader was my favorite character in the OT, and he becomes Vader....ya know.....I thought it was funny how long he stayed down. If he was as badass as he should have been, he should've sucked itup and gotten up.

I mean Sids was cooking Lukes ass and RIGHT when he stopped, Luke looked back with no pain on his face. I dont know if you contribute bad acting to it or the character's "character", but Anakin didnt seem to have as bad, except for getting thrown into a wall. But if I had the choice, Id take someone throwing me into a wall rather than getting electrocuted.

And I know all the Anti-Anakin poeple are gonna say cause Luke was more of a man than Anakin, but c'mon....

But Uncle Owen....

No really, they both had some whiney ass mentalities. Point is, Luke grew out of his and became a likeable guy.

And quite the stud from all those pictures

lol

Of course Dooku's lightning was going to throw Anakin half way across the room. Anakin didn't even attemp to block it. Yet Obi-Wan was able to block it with ease. Dooku simply lacked potentcy with his force powers. And just because he wasn't completely out of control with his lightning like Sidious was, it doesn't mean he wasn't putting his all into it. Dooku was generally able to control his emotions well and while it may seem like he was not exerting everything into his attack, it is simply because of his control. And it is quite bold to say that he must have been toying with Yoda and Dooku or simply going easy on them. It is more likely that he couldn't control the intesity of lightning with both hands and could only use the one because he was not able to otherwise. From what we have seen of Dooku it is his saber mastery and not his force powers that are impressive. In fact the most impressive thing about him is probably the way in which he is able to combine force powers with his saber dueling (it helps that he used only hand to wield his saber) and is only able to do this against Obi-Wan and Anakin who are far inferior to THE BIG 4. Mace Windu's force powers are far greater. He is able to completely own Grievous on two occasions with the force and it takes him about 5 seconds tops to do so. His shatterpoint ability also grants him great control over the force and he displays plenty of other feats in Shatterpoint that shows how powerful he was wth the force. The only people in the PT who were more powerful then he was with the force were Yoda and Sidious.

And why are people constantly saying that because Makashi was the best saber to saber form, Dooku saber rapes everyone. It is not the form that makes the dueler but how well they utilise the form. And while Dooku very much mastered Makashi, Mace Windu created Vaapad and it is stated throughout the EU to be the DEADLIEST of all of the forms. Makashi is never even stated to be the best form for saber dueling and is a very illogical to assume that just because it was designed for saber to saber dueling, it is therefore the best. It is also heavily implied throughout the EU that Mace was more powerful then Dooku.

Originally posted by thetruepower
Of course Dooku's lightning was going to throw Anakin half way across the room. Anakin didn't even attemp to block it. Yet Obi-Wan was able to block it with ease. Dooku simply lacked potentcy with his force powers. And just because he wasn't completely out of control with his lightning like Sidious was, it doesn't mean he wasn't putting his all into it. Dooku was generally able to control his emotions well and while it may seem like he was not exerting everything into his attack, it is simply because of his control. And it is quite bold to say that he must have been toying with Yoda and Dooku or simply going easy on them. It is more likely that he couldn't control the intesity of lightning with both hands and could only use the one because he was not able to otherwise. From what we have seen of Dooku it is his saber mastery and not his force powers that are impressive. In fact the most impressive thing about him is probably the way in which he is able to combine force powers with his saber dueling (it helps that he used only hand to wield his saber) and is only able to do this against Obi-Wan and Anakin who are far inferior to THE BIG 4. Mace Windu's force powers are far greater. He is able to completely own Grievous on two occasions with the force and it takes him about 5 seconds tops to do so. His shatterpoint ability also grants him great control over the force and he displays plenty of other feats in Shatterpoint that shows how powerful he was wth the force. The only people in the PT who were more powerful then he was with the force were Yoda and Sidious.

And why are people constantly saying that because Makashi was the best saber to saber form, Dooku saber rapes everyone. It is not the form that makes the dueler but how well they utilise the form. And while Dooku very much mastered Makashi, Mace Windu created Vaapad and it is stated throughout the EU to be the DEADLIEST of all of the forms. Makashi is never even stated to be the best form for saber dueling and is a very illogical to assume that just because it was designed for saber to saber dueling, it is therefore the best. It is also heavily implied throughout the EU that Mace was more powerful then Dooku.


In case you haven't noticed, Vaapad is much like the ancient form of Juyo, and perhaps lost during the PT era. Just because a Jedi can utilise a more superior form of combat, doesn't neccesary make them superior, by your stands, Makashi is the most deadliest of saber formed, before Vaapad, however Ataru is not, and yet an Ataru Master (Yoda) was able to contend with a Makashi Master ( Dooku )

When you say Dooku lacked the force potency, where is your proof? Obi Wan did not block the lightning, he absorbed it via his lightsaber, and consider that Dooku may not have neccesarrily put all his power against Obi Wan. Mace having greater force control than Dooku now? Although Mace has demonstrated some impressive feats, how does that naturally put him heaps above Dooku? Dooku's ability with the force is not as weak as you percieve, he was able to give Yoda a run for his money, adding onto that he was a Jedi Council Member, and amongst the 10 most respected Jedi to fall to the dark side. Although Mace may be impressive with his force, his feats dont automatically put him above Dooku. Dooku was able to literally own Obi Wan with little effort, and only died/lost to Anakin due to Sidious betraying him.

Where is it heavily implied that Mace was stronger than Dooku? Provide quotes and proof that he was, im not disputing that Mace may have been stronger than Dooku, its just lack of information you have provided makes it hard for us to believe. I can just as simply say, Dooku bested Windu, zOMG he will own Windu 100 / 100 times. However that is not the case.

I think it was ibn a comic where they are dueling and it is made quite clear that Mace is winning. I'll look on SWcomics and try to provide a link, though I don't think I will be able to as I have tried befor and you have to have been a member for quite some time in order to do so. And also in response to your first paragraph, you seem to have compeltely got the wrong end of the stick. Read carefully what I have said. I am in no way saying that the best form = the best duelist. What do you think I meant when I said "It is not the form that makes the dueler but how well they utilise the form."

I apologise if i have misread your sentence, but simply implying that Mace is superior to Dooku is logical fallacy.

How is implying Mace being superior to Dooku a logical fallacy? You do understand what a logical fallacy is right?

Originally posted by tdtd
How is implying Mace being superior to Dooku a logical fallacy? You do understand what a logical fallacy is right?

It's called "begging the question" if you have no premise on which to base the assumption and you just assume it to be true for its own sake.

ahhhh.. IKC did you take a debate class because I'm getting more out of debating on this star wars forum than I ever did in Intro to Logic last semester.

What's so bad about "begging the question". If something is heavily implied, why can it not be used in a debate? Some things are just too damn obvious and don't require direct concrete proof.

I didn't take a class. I have the Internet.

And I watched Illustrious point out about 11 logical fallacies in just one Lightsnake paragraph.

Do you go to college TDTD?

Originally posted by thetruepower
What's so bad about "begging the question". If something is heavily implied, why can it not be used in a debate? Some things are just too damn obvious and don't require direct concrete proof.

Nobody cares what's obvious to your subjective, ten-year-old mind.

Begging the Question: "A statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proved."

How is implying that Mace is better then Dooku begging the question?

Originally posted by IKC
I didn't take a class. I have the Internet.

And I watched Illustrious point out about 11 logical fallacies in just one Lightsnake paragraph.

Wasn't Lightsnake a really good debater?

Originally posted by thetruepower
How is implying that Mace is better then Dooku begging the question?

Because you have no premise (which requires evidence and logical reasoning) on which to base such an assumption.



If by "really good debater" you mean "Sidious fanboy who got pwned in practically every way possible (whether in evidence, logic, etc) and was caught literally making things up," then yes.

But you just said that "Begging the Question: "A statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proved." Implying that Mace is better then Dooku is not making a statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proven.

Originally posted by thetruepower
But you just said that "Begging the Question: "A statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proved." Implying that Mace is better then Dooku is not making a statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proven.

Yes it is, because you have no premise on which to base the statement. I don't care what you call it, whether implication or statement, it is still "begging the question" and it is still a logical fallacy.

Well you didn't properly state what the definition is.

No, the definition stated was fine. You have not yet developed proper capacity for logic, which is part of the reason you need to get your ass banned again.

The definiton that you gave me was "Begging the Question: 'A statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proved.'" Implying that someone is better then somebody else is not begging the question according to your definition.

I know you're not going to understand this, but I'll write it anyway.

The question: Who is better, Mace or Dooku?

The statement (implication is a statement, I don't care how you want to disguise it): Mace is better than Dooku.

The fallacy: There is no premise on which to base this assumption, you're simply assuming it to be true based on your subjective opinion.

Firstly it is still not "Begging the Question: A statement that presumes that the question being argued has already been proved."
And secondly you have completely misread the context. I did not imply that he was better but stated that the comics heavily imply the said statement.

I wasn't posting that for you, as evidenced by the first line in my post. Come back in something like seven or more years when you've developed the capacity for logic.

Until then, get banned again.

It was directed against TDTD who had just replied to Woot and they were both talking about what I had said. So whether you were posting to me or not, you still completely misread the context that it was used in.

Yes Numan, I'm currently a junior at FSU..

Right. I always imagined you to be at highschool.

Nope, it's because I troll around and not really care who I'm arguing with or if I'm making a valid argument at all. I'm getting more into it now..

tdtd educated? No way. FSU? Fulla SHit University? lol

Or is that Florida State?

Btw, Numan, get banned again.

Ok genius which college did you go to then.

Yes, Florida State Wesker.. Your sarcasm is lacking. Btw calling me uneducated or at least attempting to insinuate that I am uneducated based on my half assed trolling of a star wars forum, is a logical fallacy...

Wesker when you try to be funny, don't make people laugh at how unfunny you are.

Also a factor in Gillard's development is backstory of the Jedi warriors. The training lineage does show up in the crafting of duels and action. "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8921/oy4nl.jpg

Damn, didn't realize you were so sensitive, tdtd.

I'm not lol I didn't know whether you were being sarcastic or not..

Eh, I was just messing with you. But Numan took up the banner like I just slapped your mom.

Originally posted by Wesker
Eh, I was just messing with you. But Numan took up the banner like I just slapped your mom.

http://www.rpg2knet.com/wtf/lol_owned.jpg

That kid looks like the subject of abuse.

Originally posted by Wesker
That kid looks like the subject of abuse.

Na, just a bit unhappy with his haircut.

lol